- RSS FeedSubscribe
- « Previous PostCrossReference
- Next Post »Fukushima First Baptist Church
A La Carte (3/31)
- 03/31/11
- 58
I am in Grand Rapids today, at the Author Lounge here at Zondervan. I’m surrounded by hundreds of copies of my book, each of which is awaiting a signature. Strange stuff, this. It’s a rather odd feeling to be surrounded by copies of your own book. Uncomfortable.
Slander - In this rather emotional interview, Rob Bell says that other Christians have slandered him. It always amazes me how quickly the criminal becomes the victim—how the person who sins so quickly tried to deflect the attention away from himself.
Why Canadians Shop in the US - I enjoyed this article since I’m a Canadian who lives near to the US border and who has been known (occasionally) to do some shopping over there.
Economics - Calvin & Hobbes on America’s economic issues.
Publishers Weekly - Publishers Weekly offers a review of my book. “As we ‘approach a frontier,’ Challies cautions readers to consider potential behavioral changes before they are written into our history. While he does not draw definitive conclusions, the questions he poses will give readers necessary pause and help them to take a careful look at technology's place in their lives.”
Hard to Measure - John Knight: “In the pile of papers I referenced yesterday were some old test scores. Since Paul attends public schools, they assess his educational progress as mandated by various federal and state bodies. The things they want to measure, he can't do. His scores on reading, reading comprehension, math, math concepts and the like were as low as you can score and still be breathing.”
God is more interested in our holiness than in our comfort. He more greatly delights in the integrity and purity of his church than in the material well-being of its members. He shows himself more clearly to men and women who enjoy him and obey him than to men and women whose horizons revolve around good jobs, nice houses, and reasonable health. He is far more committed to building a corporate "temple' in which his Spirit dwells than he is in preserving our reputations. He is more vitally disposed to display his grace than to flatter our intelligence. He is more concerned for justice than for our ease. He is more deeply committed to stretching our faith than our popularity. He prefers that his people live in disciplined gratitude and holy joy rather than in pushy self-reliance and glitzy happiness. He wants us to pursue daily death, not self-fulfillment, for the latter leaders to death, while the former leads to life. —D.A. Carson
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
Releasing on April 1, The Next
Published in 2008, this book
This is a guide that calls men,
This review of the bestselling
New to the site? You can get
This is a guide written
Comments (58)
The great part of that post on Bell is the comment containing the words “if it is a just a bunch of white guys…” — and the responses thereto
DA Carson is truly brilliant!
So much time, energy, and effort has been put into the voluminous responses to Bell’s book! Enough already.It’s starting to make believers look bad, and he raises that point quite clearly.At what point does it become bullying? It’s easy to be an internet slacktivist when there are real needs to be met. Let’s get out and show our communities Jesus and put the energy we have towards something that matters - people. The world needs it.I don’t have a blog or website I want anyone to visit because it doesn’t matter and I don’t need affirmation by others.
What Bell should do, which he won’t, is actually point to specific works and give direct (wait a sec, Rob Bell be direct??) quotations where he believes he’s slandered and why.
I think this is a typo: “for the latter leaders to death”
Holden, did you read the article. How are you to show people Jesus when you have people like Bell portraying a different Jesus. As some of the comments below say, Bell never addresses the critics he just asked to stop picking on him. If he wanted to raise a point, how about a discussion or a debate around what is being criticized.
Acts 20:29-312 Corinthians 11:3-4
Right practice comes from right belief Holden Caulfield. We are supposed to speak out against false teachers. Is that not what Jesus constantly did with the Pharisees?
Holden,
If it is enough already, why are you contributing to the ongoing discussion? Shouldn’t you be out doing something useful, as you instruct everyone else to do? You seem to be as consistent as those who exercise their judgment by telling others to stopping judging.
Why doesn’t Bell put his money where his mouth is and challenge and enter into debate with a his critics ? Oh wait a second , he can’t because as numerous have shown his arguments are as flimsy as a tower made of paper. From James White ,Kevin DeYoung.Michael Horton,Mohler,Burk ( you as well Tim ) and many others , they exposed his book for what it is a faulty view of hell with a another Jesus. They interacted with his arguments and statements fairly and with grace.
In history we have had many disputes over doctrine and when the gospel itself or the work of Christ is assailed , we most defend it and sometimes its not going to be all nice and cuddly. Bell is just lucky a certain German reformer is not alive anymore because I have a feeling , his words would not have been as cordial as those who have responded.
Holden, …like ministry?
So in other words I have to agree to keep kicking Bell while everyone else does so? I am suggesting we could all be doing something other than bullying Bell. The whole thing has become absurd and it is saying more about us than him.If we were all kids in the schoolyard standing around while the wimpy kid is getting thrashed I’m the guy jumping in saying stop. I don’t care if I take the beating instead. That’s more like Jesus than anything else I can think of.Any way I know when to quit. I don’t have anything further to add to the whole Bell controversy except to challenge you all to examine your hearts. How does this bring glory to God?
So much time an energy has been put into telling everyone that so much time and energy has been put into responding to Bell’s book. If it’s internet “slacktivism” to respond to a dangerous book, it’s equally slacktivistic (if we’re inventing words here, i’m going all out) to waste time telling us we’re all meanies for responding. If responding to Bell is a waste of time (since there are so many needs in our communities), is not posting a comment on a blog an equal waste of time? I mean, you could of been showing Jesus to those in the community. Yet, you chose to comment on a blog. Forgive my sarcasm, but the logic behind your exhortation is flawed.
Despite what you may have heard, Christianity does not equal niceness.
In deference to full to disclosure, I do have a blog. I would love for any and everyone to visit. I think I have some great, gospel-saturated content that I hope and pray is beneficial. I will also greatly appreciate your encouragement in my efforts.
Grace & Peace
Holden, I agree and disagree with you… I agree that we should be showing our communities Jesus and putting our energy towards people… I also think that’s exactly why many who have a problem with Rob Bell’s teaching are responding . I don’t see the backlash against Bell’s dogma to be bullying in any way. There may be those whose reactions have seemed “unkind” but I think we Christians have unfortunately come to equate disagreement with condemnation. Bell wrote the book. If God inspired it ( and I think not) then he should be prepared to face his opposition. When the apostle Paul wrote controversially (under TRUE inspiration) to the people of God, I don’t think he ever cried “Foul,” to those who did not support him. Jesus, the Author and Originator, yes, the Word Become Flesh, never cried “No Fair!” when He faced criticism. Bell should get a clue. Truth needs no defense…
@Holden, umm, fighting for the truth according to scripture DOES bring glory to God. Bell is obviously a false teacher. You cannot portray him sir as the wimpy kid at school getting picked on by the bullies. He’s the sly kid at school telling all those who will listen lies, leading them down a path that will get them bad grades, or expelled from school if you want to use that analogy. Those who are bringing to light the lies in Bell’s book (which is selling well) are simply trying to honor God by not allowing His truth to be misaligned or slandered in the public circle. Paul spent much writing in the NT doing the same thing.
Which Jesus, Holden? Bell’s Jesus? The Jesus of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Islam’s Jesus?
You see, words mean things, and content matters. Propositional truths are inescapable. What ‘real needs’ do you see in the world that rise above a solution to our sin before a holy God? That’s the crux (pun intended) of the Bell debate.
I am able to love Jesus because I realize how much I am like the Pharisees. You can’t love Him until you realize how much you are like them. My heart aches for us all.
Last time I checked; Calvinism is not the only doctrine that qualifies as “true” Christianity. And I most closely align with Calvinism in my theology. Quick run down of the “critics”. Piper, Driscoll, Challies, Mohler, DeYoung, Taylor, et al. Common theme? Calvinism.
My problem with the critique of Bell is that most of the comments on blogs are “mean” and “nasty”. Defense of the truth is important but when it trumps the fruits of the spirit I think we all should be evaluating our motives and intent. No where in scripture (particularly the words of Jesus) do I find where it’s okay to forego our call to make a point. Bring on the “but to the Pharisees…” comments. Everybody is a Pharisee when they don’t agree with me. :)
Hey Tim. After you get all of your books autographed, you ought to drop by and say ‘hi’ to Rob. Would be interesting to see if he would receive you, in the name of Christ. As a special bonus, maybe he would sign your copy of Love Wins, if you have it with you.
I appreciate the quote from D.A. Carson and appreciate him! And I repeat that wholeheartedly. But why does he have to use that troublesome term “justice”? Justice is an OT concept. My understanding is that the justice required of Israel’s leaders, and from its covenant members to one another, is the equivalent of our new covenant love and care for one another in the Church. So isn’t it better to put it in NT terms? Just thinking.
Paytas hit it right on the head, and don’t jump all over Holden because he brings up a valid point here. Because of this book, the overall tone of the criticism since conveys the sense that Bell has completely shifted from being a believer and follower of Christ to becoming an apostate who no longer believes: “He’s preaching something other than Christianity and therefore he can’t possibly be a Christian!” Someone earlier called him a false teacher - in my mind this is equivalent to saying that he is not a part of the body of Christ. There is no evidence to suggest this!
Rob Bell is a brother in Christ and needs to be treated accordingly. Does his book have erroneous doctrinal content? Yes! Will it mislead people or misrepresent Jesus to those who don’t know Him? Probably. But we all have been guilty of similar mistakes in our dealings with trying to share our faith with others. His mistake happens to be more public and from a position of prominent leadership. This does not make him unworthy of fellowship in Christ or being treated with the love and respect that should be accorded a brother.
The collective church needs to be careful here - if people start running around saying he’s a nut, no longer speaking to or keeping in contact with him, and generally isolating him, it better be because he truly renounced his faith, not because he happened to make doctrinal errors in his teaching. Our efforts should be to bring him back into the mainline doctrinal fold, not shove him out the door & then slam it in his face. A lot of what’s out there has this kind of attitude in it, and it is ugly.
Let the conversation be more about whether Rob Bell should be leading, about the ideas that he expresses, and less about Rob as a person. He is motivated by the same Love that should be motivating us; the same Love that should be compelling both his supporters and detractors engage in earnest discussion about how to remain one and in solidarity with one another for the sake of Him who gave Himself up for us all.
Clever name. But perhaps you should use your real name. (Holden Caulfield is the protagonist from Catcher in the Rye)
To continue with the school analogy, I would liken Bell to a child who calls another to a challenge and then storms off in frustration when he does not come out a victor. In our vastly digital age, any and everything that we say, write or do is open to praise as well as scrutiny, this is especially magnified for someone in the public eye. You cannot write a book and expect only applause; naturally there will be someone who disagrees with what you say, regardless of what it is that you say. Absolute truth, such as the Word of God is as black and white and it stands in stark contrast around shades of grey. Bell has muddled the pure white Gospel of Christ by incorporating the darkness of our fleshly desires and selfishness and something needs to be said about that as long as his book is in print.Love is not turning a blind eye to error, but as the Father loves his children, love requires chastening. And if we indeed have any consideration toward God’s word, it would be nothing short of hatred to see it compromised and remain silent. The enemy wallows in shades of grey (doubt and confusion) and it would be his greatest joy to defile our hearts and minds likewise.
So if I follow it all correctly…
The Orthodox Christians think the Catholics are wrong.
The Catholics think the Protestants are wrong.
The Protestants break off into different denominations and all maintain the others are wrong in some aspect.
The Evangelicals are upset because they think Bell is wrong.
And of course the Muslims, Hundus, Buddhists, and Jews think everyone in that list and anyone who doesn’t agree with them are wrong.
Seems like if there is this “truth” about who God is, then it would be impossible to mess it up.
Ultimately, everyone should get off of Bell’s back because it is evident that no one really knows the truth.
Jeri,
You said: “Justice is an OT concept”.
Then would you say that Christ taking the punishment for our sins is not a matter of justice? Have you ever read Revelations? Yep, no justice to be found there.
Funny that it took 21 comments for people to figure that out…
Anyhow, I have to agree with “Holden” and Chris P. Yes, there have been a few reasonable critiques (including on this blog). But we all know full well that for every reasoned critique there have been ~5 calls of “burn the heretic” as well… (usually not including the word “burn,” but often including “heretic”).
Frankly, I don’t think that Calvinistic theology is the best expression of Christianity. But neither do I think that 95% of the commenters here are heretics. I wish that many Calvinists would apply the same grace to those with whom they have theological differences.
For those trying to turn this into a “Calvinism thing”, please provide more proof than listing a number of critics with Calvinism in common. The Rob Bell issue goes to the heart of the gospel. It is only to the shame of Arminians if they find themselves silent on the teachings of Rob Bell.
Well said Adam.I don’t agree with your conclusion, but well said anyway.
“Seems like if there is this “truth” about who God is, then it would be impossible to mess it up.”
Apparently Adam and Holden don’t have a great grasp on the fall and the effects of sin in this world.
There is a couple at my church that named their kid “Anakin” - blecch.
OK, “Holden Caulfield,” you’ve used all the space you’re going to get. Run along and play, now. Maybe you could read Catcher in the Rye one more time and consider how well-chosen your pseudonym is.
@Eric,
“Turning it into a Calvinism” thing isn’t really the point of my comment. The point was that in this “thing” we call Christianity there was/is huge swath’s of belief that we would consider Christian that aren’t saying things about “Love Wins” will the same intensity and vitriol. Scot Mcknight, Ben Witherington, Eugene Peteson, Tony Jones, et al have weighed in on the book. They’ve done so with balanced evaluation. It wasn’t glowing Rob Bell fandom either.
Additionally it’s not the leading Calvinists that are necessarily being vitriolic per se, it’s the comments from their “followers”. Most that I’ve interacted with can’t tell me precisely/specifically what their issues are. They just repeat the mantra “Rob Bell is a heretic because he’s a universalist”. When I ask for specific quotes from the book, none are provided. When I ask for specifics from interviews, none are provided. All I get is Ad hominem comments.
So I’ll ask here:1) Where in the book does Rob specifically say “Everybody is getting into Heaven”
2) Where in the book does Rob specifically say “There is no Hell”
3) Where in the book does Rob specifically say “I’m a Universalist”
4) Where specifically in the book does Rob err in regards to the definitions about Gehenna, Sheol, and Hades?
Furthermore if you haven’t read the book it does, contrary to current belief, disqualify you from commenting. In High School I gave a book report on “To Kill a Mockingbird”. I hadn’t read the book, I read Cliff Notes, and saw the movie. My teacher gave me an “F”. She told me that doing a book report on a book I haven’t read was lying. That has stuck with me. Take someones word for it is bad form and not conducive to constructive dialog. Opinions are fine but have facts to back those opinions.
And I will reiterate (from other comments on other blogs) I’m a calvinist in theology, I have some issues with the book, I believe Rob Bell is a brother in Christ.
I’ll grant you, I have not seen all of the too-many-to count comments made at all of the too-many-to-count sites that have posted articles about Rob Bell and/or “Love Wins” (who could?). But in general, I have seen very few ad hominem attacks on Rob Bell, apart from labelling his theology as heretical (which if he is teaching what many think he is teaching, would be heretical) and then attaching that same adjective to him (which would necessarily and rightly follow). Maybe I have been fortunate enough to miss the ones that have caused you to issue this admonition.
Chris,
You said: “Last time I checked; Calvinism is not the only doctrine that qualifies as “true” Christianity. And I most closely align with Calvinism in my theology. Quick run down of the “critics”. Piper, Driscoll, Challies, Mohler, DeYoung, Taylor, et al. Common theme? Calvinism.”
I have a hard time reading that as anything other than you trying to make the issue about Calvinism. If you meant to address the “vitriol”, why mention Calvinism and identify the critics, then later say that it’s not the “leading Calvinists” that are being vitriolic.
You also said: “Furthermore if you haven’t read the book it does, contrary to current belief, disqualify you from commenting”
I have to ask, did you personally experience the Holocaust? If not, by your logic you are disqualified from commenting on it and every other thing that you have not personally experienced. There is no way that you can take the word of trusted sources and formulate a reasonable opinion, so you must remain silent.
“This [belief in a place of torment and punishment] is toxic and misguided…”“That’s why the Christians who talk the most about going to heaven while everybody else goes to hell don’t throw very good parties.”“It’s a cheap view of the world because it’s a cheap view of God.”“… we were so ‘simple’ or ‘naive,’ or ‘brainwashed’ or whatever terms arise when we haven’t come to terms with our own story.”“This kind of God is simply devastating. Psychologically crushing.”
Holden, Adam, et. al,Would it be okay if we allowed our criticism of Bell to rise to the level of his criticism of us? If not, have you posted on his supporters’ blogs the same complaints about vitriol and such other nonsense as you’ve posted on this one?
Mark,
So you would say that “you” are the type of Christian that Rob Bell was referring to in the quotes you posted?
Since he is referring to people who hold to the traditional view of hell, that it is a place where God displays His wrath eternally on the unregenerate who have rejected Christ, yes, I think he is referring to me. This, despite the fact that he has never been to one of my parties.
One other note:Rob Bell’s quotes from the book don’t reference specific individual people. While ALL of the negative criticism focus’ specifically on him. Not all of it is personal but much of it is.
In this blog post Tim refers to Rob Bell as being “rather emotional” and a slighted reference to him being a “criminal”. I find no reason for that type of hyperbole in theological debate among Chrisitans.
So you’re offended by that Mark?
“While ALL of the negative criticism [about Rob Bell’s book] focus’ specifically on [Rob Bell].”
Oops, surely the critics missed the memo that everything wrong in the world is George Bush’s fault.
So it’s okay to refer to broad swaths of Christianity as toxic and misguided, just not specific Christians?And, perhaps Tim could have used a better metaphor than criminal, but his main idea is that Bell started this by labeling the traditionalists as toxic and misguided or naive and brainwashed. He began with hyperbolic language, but is now upset that people are using the same language against him.
No, I’m not offended by it. If Bell considers it toxic and misguided, fine. But if I (or DeYoung, Mohler, Challies, etc.) come back and say, “Actually, Bell, your view is toxic and misguided,” why would anyone accuse just our side of bullying?
I have a fine grasp of it. I’ve read all of the books and heard the teachings on it. Plainly stated, I just don’t buy it.But more to the point, the furor over Rob Bell is exactly what people talk about when they see Christianity. A bunch of people on different sides of the fence thinking they know all about God. 1.5 billion Muslims say you’re wrong. 1 billion Hindus say you’re wrong and 800,000,000 Buddhists say you’re wrong. If the truth about what we think about God was really “truth” then we wouldn’t mess it up so bad.
Mark,
I appreciate your willingness to dialogue. For my money I would have loved for Rob Bell to say…”Hell, Fire, and Brimstone is a partial picture of the Nature of God.:” But he didn’t say that, he did IMO castigate and caricature a broad swath of believers (albeit it is true of some) by not saying that.
I don’t believe that Rob Bell is accusing anyone of bullying him. I think, based on his statements in the video, that he finds the comments about him being a universalist to be wrong therefore the “slander” statement sticks. Seeing as the definition of slander is falsifying information about someone’s actions or beliefs.
@Eric,
I’m not sure what you’re suggesting? George Bush and Rob Bell are synonymous (analogous) how?
Mark you said:
“Tim could have used a better metaphor than criminal, but his main idea is”
A few thoughts:
1) You knew what Tim’s intent was how?
2) Eye for an Eye is not biblical in the new covenant
3) Your defense of Tim’s poor word choice is different than a defense of Rob’s poor word choice how?
Again thanks for the dialog.
Adam,
Well, the 1.5 billion Muslims say that you are wrong too, so what does that prove?
Chris,
My reference to George Bush was a joking reference to the phenomenon where a certain segment of the population seems to blame everything they see wrong in the world on George Bush, no matter how insignificantly, tangentially or distantly he may or may not have influenced something. My greater point is that of course it is Rob Bell who is receiving all of the criticism for the book that Rob Bell wrote - it follows logically.
Chris:1) I suppose I’m guessing at his meaning, but since we are fairly like-minded, his intent seemed pretty clear to me. I didn’t mean to speak for him and he can correct me if he needs to.2) It’s not an eye for an eye. It’s similar language used descriptively. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with calling someone a heretic, or toxic, or misguided, but you better be able to show from Scripture that that is the case. The problem is you I’m pointing to Bell’s quotes in a “he started it” kind of way. What I’m pointing out is that it’s disingenuous for Bell and his defenders to cry, “they’re calling me names”.3) I didn’t say Bell’s word choice was poor. Just that it’s similar. I’m not offended in any way by his choice of words, but by the fact that he chose those words and then his defenders will condemn others for using similar words.
By the way, line breaks aren’t working for me. Sorry about that.
Wow I’m glad I;m in Australia and not in north America. Has the winter made you all go crazy. I opened up Challies this am and read the tragic, solemn diary of the Japanese pastor and his peoples sufferings and then turned to this ongoing spat between Bell and all others. Somehow I think it”s like watching children throwing sand at each other in the sandpit. If Bell’s reasoning is of God then it will bare fruit otherwise let the case lie and before you know it time will move on.
Tim or David (or anyone who may know!),
Is the D.A. Carson quote taken from a book he has authored? If so, which one…
Thanks! Trish
KMS,
So, you fall into the “ignore the heresy and it will go away” camp? I’d be interested to see you defend that position biblically, and not just with a proof text. In other words, taken as a whole, does the Bible teach Christians to ignore false teaching or confront and correct false teaching?
By the way, by commenting on others commenting on the Bell issue, haven’t you also jumped into the sandpit (as you put it)? Shouldn’t you be spending your time contemplating the tragedy in Japan instead of impugning fellow Christians by calling them crazy?