Wondered if you would say anything about Jennifer Knapp when the news broke this week. I’m curious about your take on theology on whether this sin would exclude a professing Christian from the kingdom?

So with those nine sins, you must repent prior to death otherwise you won’t make it to heaven? All other sins, you don’t have to repent, but you can still make it. Hmmmm…

I believe there is more to this verse than what appears on the surface, just as I believe there is no sin that I can do that is larger than the cross.

I was so sad to read this about Jennifer as well. I have always loved her music and sound. This might sound like a stupid question….but what do you do with all the old song? One of my favorites was All Consuming Fire…where she sings about some of the different names of God. When I listen to it, it often reminds me t rest in the fact that God is the Great I AM, All Consuming Fire….I feel like I shouldn’t listen any more.

AND…from the article Tim posted, it almost sounds as if she wouldn’t consider herself an evangelical christian….did you get that same feeling?

Tim,

Enjoyed the radio show! Although I will have a difficult time getting ‘spooning’ out of my head… I didn’t quite hear hostility, though he did seem to want to put you on the defensive and force a reaction.

I appreciate how well you kept leading back to God’s truth, emphasizing how it is understandable and respectfully sharing how it is dangerous when someone manipulates it to support another agenda - however well-intentioned.

I heard that we are to engage and respect a person, but part of this respect can be disagreeing with their application of truth. Being liked is not the issue, being obedient is. It is God’s revealed will, not our interpretation, that is important.

I guess the element that is missing is time. People are constantly changing; learning, reforming. How often are we to forgive a brother when he has gone astray? How long are we to try to persuade him in love and restore him in truth? Is it possible to say decisively that someone will not change?

With someone of great influence, isn’t it important to challenge? Why is that considered to be conforming or supporting (the reason for separation)?

Regarding Knapp, I’ve not heard any of her music that I recall.Her outcoming seems to reveal a dissonance in her life and that of a Christian. A confessing Christian with a view of the Gospel and commands of God so distorted as to be able to decide that homosexuality is okay is at odds with orthodox beliefs.The news article said she wasn’t “turning her back on the church” but that doesn’t mean much to me. Looks like she turned her back on one of the clearest commands in the Bible. That’s, at minimum, a show of serious lack of biblical faithfulness.Not a good example for our music infused teens, that’s for sure. I’m praying that the depth and weight of this sin is really impressed upon her and leads her to repentance unto salvation.2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Good gosh, the man won’t stop talking!

Tim, I think you might have gotten about 300 words in during that entire 40 minutes. But you used them about as well as he would let you, so kudos.

Good job on that interview!

The one thing that bothers me is the idea that seems to be put forth by the “Emergent” mindset, that truth is unknowable. An Emergent acquaintance of mine regularly brings that up in any conversations we have relating to Christianity. What bothers me about it is it seems to be sort of a false humility.It feels as though they say “I’m so humble because I believe that our fallible human minds cannot possibly understand the infallible God. How dare you be so proud as to say we can know the truth?”In response I always think, Where’s the Holy Spirit? Does He not help us and lead us to a knowledge of the truth? Can we not take a firm stand upon Scripture, believing that God does, indeed, help His children to believe what is true about Himself? Can’t we rest in His power to open our eyes and help us believe?

Since when did taking a stand upon what is taught in Scripture equal pride and arrogance?

Tim, I listened to your interview with Drew Marshall, and to be honest, I was disappointed. I think you missed an excellent opportunity with Spencer Burke to differentiate between misunderstanding scripture, nuanced interpretation (hermeneutics) and flat out abhorrent or heretical teaching.

For instance, when Burke responded to Marshall (at 27:08) saying,

“Well yeah and again what I’m saying uh… I think you asked a different question about whether you can have personal boundaries, have a systematic theology that works, versus the idea of shunning people or walking away or not including… at least not even willing to engage with people. I watch uh… people disenfranchise people constantly by saying… let’s say their umbilical and I’m like wait a minute they just quoted scripture. Uh… is that bib… is that verse really not in your bible or are they saying it’s not my dogma, it’s not my hermeneutic, it’s not my doctrine? That’s a radically different question or answer than saying your unbiblical, unchristian. Those seem like judgmental statements versus I don’t agree with your theology lets have a conversation brother.”

Burke set you up for a definitive response by categorizing possible causes for professing Christians to disagree about scriptures and deciding to agree to disagree or break fellowship because a professing Christian is “unbiblical” or “unchristian.” Neither Marshall nor Burke were talking doctrinally, e.g., baptism, such as sprinkling water, pouring water or immersing in water. Nor were they speaking hermeneutically about say eschatology and whether or not they have a proclivity to believe in a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture, etc. These are doctrinal disagreements that for the most part do not hinder fellowship within Christendom, nor label a professing Christian a heretic.

I think the point that Marshall drove home was that if Warren (or any other professing Christian) is assessed to be a danger to the cause of Christ, then he/she should be shunned, excluded, disassociated with by the brethren. As pragmatic, conciliatory, purposely vague about the gospel, and hopelessly ecumenical as Warren is, Warren’s dangerousness pales in comparison to Brian McLaren, who is mentioned often in the interview, or Spencer Burke for that matter. There are many well documented instances where both McLaren and Burke deny the fundamental precepts of the word of God and wander far beyond nuanced hermeneutics.

I liked Marshall’s summation; even more, I liked your response.

Marshall: “But what I’m trying to say (37:08) Tim it sounds like you know your saying to the folks on the other side of the camp easy with the whole linking arms warm fuzzy stuff out there folks because you can land on truth. Don’t quite just because it is complex and hard - and there’s all different various opinions out there. Don’t quit in trying to come to the truth. Fair?”Tim: “Sure what’s the spirit been given to us, if not to help lead us to truth; to help us understand it, apply it and live within it?”

“…to each his own won’t lead you home, and probably never will…”

Brian,

I’m sorry you felt that way about my comment, but if simply quoting a passage of scripture makes someone a Pharisee, then I guess I’m guilty as charged! But remember, the same Jesus you want to “stick with” is the same Jesus who spoke this, by His Spirit, through the Apostle Paul:

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

I love grace as much as anyone, but grace that does not account for the whole counsel of God is no grace at all. A grace that would supposedly save a person, only to leave them in their sins, is not biblical grace. True grace instructs us to deny ungodliness - it doesn’t give us immunity to practice it (see Titus 2:11-12).

Please understand that I say these things with no animosity towards you whatsoever. But I hope you will be challenged to reconsider your thoughts on this matter.

Garrett

I am totally flummoxed by the World Op-ed piece. LOL As a sweet friend who is an expert in this movement and knows more about it than my brain could ever hold put it: “Emergent isn’t even sick, let a lone dead!”

What worries me about this all-too-early declaration is that many people who are just beginning to discover what Emergent IS, many who have finally had their cages rattled a bit by more blatant writings of McLaren’s and etc, are all of a sudden being told, “Oh never mind it’s done now.” Really? It seems it’s just matured and reached a new stage.

Perhaps some elite circles have decided that it’s done now — but are they aware of the havoc emergent theology and the reintroduction of contemplative practice/blending of other religions/denial of absolute truth is wreaking in vast swathes of evangelicalism? What use is this declaration of death if it’s still affecting the people around us??

So shed some light, Tim…why’d you post that article? Just to see if any of us would start to howl? ;) AWWOOOO! I cry foul. And I’d really like to know where on Earth this guy came to this conclusion.

Jaimee,

I’m not saying Christians can’t STRUGGLE with those things, but that is an entirely different thing than saying that a Christian can LIVE in those things as a style of life. You seem to be turning Paul’s statement on its head. Paul says “the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God,” (see also 1 John 2:28 - 3:9) but you seem to be saying that the unrighteous WILL inherit the kingdom of God.

Again, we know Paul doesn’t mean sinless perfection is required to inherit the kingdom, but we also know that he can’t mean someone can live in habitual, known sin as a pattern of life, and still be a true Christian. If that is the case, the promises of the New Covenant in passages like Ezek. 36:24-27 and Jer. 32:37-40 are meaningless, not to mention Paul’s argument in Rom. 6:1-14.

Take care,

Garrett

I think you’re missing my point. It is completely unedifying and unloving for Christians to follow the worlds fascination with “celebrity” gossip. I think it shames us when our blogs and news reports start discussing how “damnable” these revelations are in the comment threads as they directly rate to said “celebrity”…it’s no better than TMZ or Perez Hilton or the tabloids at the grocery store check-out who delight in throwing people under the bus and discussing others foibles and failings for entertainment.I think we as Christians are called to a different standard of behaviour. We’re called to be loving…we’re commanded to love God and to love our neighbour as ourselves. I believe we are called to directly minister to our brothers and sisters within personal relationships and to work to restore them and direct them away from sin.

Do you know Jennifer Knapp? Do you go to her church? Do you exchange e-mails? Do you have any personal relationship with her at all? My guess is no. My guess is that you only know her as a musician, perhaps one who’s music you enjoyed. So how is talking about her sin and listing verses which condemn her behaviour, verses which we are all familiar with, a counter-culture response any different than that of the way the rest of the world acts? I think we’re called to be the body of Christ and to move in the direction of restoration instead of condemnation…look to Jesus response to the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery. Their sin was visible and public and when they came face to face with Jesus He moved towards them with grace. I believe this is the model we are to follow as the Church.

I think we’re called to pray for her if we don’t know her. I also believe we’re called to pray for understanding and wisdom as to how to respond to Christians who are gay. I don’t think we’ve done a good job at it for the most part, we’re really good at casting them out into the outer darkness and thanking God that we’re not like them, but we’re pretty terrible at anything more than listing verses of why their behaviour is incompatible with the kingdom. I just don’t see this as the model for how we are called to act.

How could we as Christians offer a different model to the world? How could we respond differently when one of our more public brothers or sisters sin is exposed? How can we come to terms with how difficult and challenging it must be to be gay and Christian! I can’t begin to wrap my head around the internal torment it must create. It doesn’t justify the behaviour, which I believe is sin, I don’t think we can get away from that, but it places it as a much, much more difficult area of ministry. One that I wish we were quicker to turn towards.

Brian — I totally agree with much of what you’ve said regarding the church needing a better response to those who struggle with this type of sin (and many others, actually…). However, I do NOT agree that this announcement and Christians’ interest in it is no different from Perez Hilton or TMZ. For instance — Ms. Knapp is known not just for being a singer but, apparently in particular, as a Christian singer and, therefore, we DO have an obligation to examine what that means. Not in an effort to judge her personally…but there are ramifications far beyond her own personal walk with Christ at stake here. She has come out publicly as a lesbian while attempting a comeback as a singer and has publicly expressed her doubt about whether or not that conflicts with our faith. Ms. Knapp, because of her public profile IS going to affect those who admire her and what she represents — most significantly teens and younger folks who may pay attention to her and others like her as a representative of Christian celebrity.

This does not, therefore, allow us in our reactions to fall into our own sin (Eph 4:26, Mt 7:1-5) — those around her closely will, I hope, work to restore her and love her during this time, those of us on the outside (me on the complete fringes since I barely know who she is) should pray for her and ourselves. However, I do think that a reaction, equally public IS warranted because the Bible is clear that lesbianism/homosexuality is not of God’s will for us and that it’s anathema to the very image of himself that he marked us with when he created us male and female.

I think that one of the clearest explanations of how our sexuality is an expression of our worship and view of God Himself is in Paul’s exegesis in Romans chapter 1 where those who “exchanged the Truth for the lie and worshiped creation rather than the Creator” are immediately affected in the way that they expressed their sexuality — it was a part of their expression of turning away from the Creator and becoming idolaters. My point with this is that sexuality is important — it and its expression in Biblical form (i.e. man and woman in the covenant bond of marriage) is a part of God’s expression among us of who He is. Anything that changes that (not just homosexuality — but extramarital relationships etc., etc. at which I throw up my hands at my own past and can only cry “Mercy!” to that very Creator — and therefore do not judge Ms. Knapp or others in sexual sin but long for them to be reconciled and have to count myself among them) is harmful to us, to our view of Him, and to our understanding of the very structures that God put in place to declare himself.

Peacemaker ministries asks four questions when considering whether a sin is one that can be overlooked and I think that three out of the four are blatant “yes” answers even in this impersonal case, because the person is someone of celebrity stature in sin:

• Is the offense seriously dishonoring God?
• Has it permanently damaged a relationship?
• Is it seriously hurting other people? (in this case because of her celebrity status i do think yes, though i don’t know the people who immediately surround her — there are those who watch her closely)

and

• Is it seriously hurting the offender himself?

It is dishonoring to God, it is seriously hurting other people (if it causes them to think this type of sin is okay, question whether the Bible really says that it is sin), and it is, in fact, seriously hurting Jennifer Knapp from a Godly perspective whether she sees that herself right now or not.

So no, this is not inappropriate attention to public information — it is not the same as the gossip that happens on TMZ. It is important to the health of the Christian community to acknowledge, analyze and react in a Biblical fashion to this announcement.

I always end up apologizing for rambling and getting way out of my depth with all you folks…and here I am needing to do it again…I don’t mean to sound combative or argumentative…but I do think this is important.

Bethany,I want to recommend three sound churches in the Portland area. I think you would be blessed and equipped in these fellowships. Emmaus Church with Pastor Cole Brown, Hinson Church with Pastor Todd Miles, and on the other side of the river in Vancouver, Christ Our Redeemer church with Pastor Dan Morse. There are others, but these are the ones that I know are solid in doctrine and in love. God bless you as you look for a home church, Rick R.

Eloquorius - I’m sorry, but I disagree with you concerning the definition of gossip.

From Wikipedia’s article on Gossip:

Judaism considers gossip spoken without a constructive purpose (known in Hebrew as lashon hara) as a sin. Speaking negatively about people, even if retelling true facts, counts as sinful, as it demeans the dignity of man — both the speaker and the subject of the gossip.

The Epistle to the Romans associates gossips (“backbiters”) with a list of sins including sexual immorality and with murder:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1:28-32)Jesus also taught, in Matthew 18, that conflict resolution among church members ought to begin with the aggrieved party attempting to resolve their dispute with the offending party alone. Only if this did not work would the process escalate to the next step, in which another church member would become involved. After that if the person at fault still would not “hear”, the matter was to be fully investigated by the church elders. At no time did Jesus authorize exposing faults to anyone else. This process is meant to encourage Christians to get along, overlook offenses and if possible, work things out directly between the two parties involved. Since “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), Christians are called to loving forgiveness and the spread of positive information rather than evil gossip that destroys relationships.

I have found the string of comments related to Jennifer interesting.

Part of my primary interest in posting my first comment/question is to find out Tim’s position, whom I respect. My purpose is not to paint Tim into a corner, but to understand how he would discern the question.

I am a Christian and husband of almost 18 years and yet I struggle with homosexuality. It is the sin that brought me to a close relationship with Christ (through surrender) six years ago, but at the same time it can be a daily struggle.

I am not looking for an answer that will give me a ‘free ticket’ to sin. I do believe there are people who struggle (and/or sin) in homosexuality who will be in heaven. If I’m wrong in that belief, I want to understand why so I can be grounded in Truth.

Brian in BC,

You cite Matthew 18, referring to vvs. 15-17 where sin is not publicly exposed unless there is a refusal to repent. But, you’re misapplying because you’re missing that Jesus said, “If your brother sins against YOU…” (caps emphasis mine). The Matthew 18 section is about handling sin between believers. The point is that an offended believer must not make the offender’s sin public knowledge unless several steps are taken, in which case the publicizing of the sin is the fault of the unrepentant/wayward brother. It is most certainly not about how to handle a professing Christian who openly proclaims living a life of serious unrepentant sin.

I would recommend that all read Paul’s clear teaching in 1Cor 5, which is a similar situation of a professing Christian reveling in open sexual sin; in that case, having adulterous sexual relations with his father’s wife. Paul clearly commands believers everywhere “not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler; not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Cor. 5:11 ESV) Like the man in 1 Cor. 5, Jennifer Knapp is also publicly living her sin, and the LORD’s command in 1 Cor. rests upon us just the same.

Thus the Bible has three categories:

1. Unrepentant sinners… we should give the gospel.
2. Repentant, professing Christians… we have fellowship in Christ.
3. Unrepentant professing “Christians”… we must separate ourselves from them according to 1 Cor. 5 and other Scriptural precedent, at least until they repent (placing them back in category 2) or deny the faith (placing them back in category 1).

The bottom line is that in order for us to follow the commands of Scripture when handling professing “Christians” publicly living in unrepentant sin, it’s implied that the knowledge of such sin will likewise be as public and notorious as the sinner themselves have made it. If you can’t accept this, I have to wonder what agenda is driving you… because whatever it is, it’s not falling in line with Scripture.

For anyone who is still following this chain of comments or will stumble upon it in the future, here is a great post from Exodus on the subject.

Responding to Jennifer Knapp’s “Coming Out”

Exodus is the leading Christian organization that ministers to those who struggle, those who know someone who struggles and churches/ministries who work with those who struggle.