On Monday, Joe Carter, he of Evangelical Outpost fame, posted on his web site discussing an article Andrew Sullivan had published in Time Magazine entitled "My Problem with Christianism." There is one aspect of Carter's article I would like to discuss today: the preamble. This is how Joe began: "While I believe that he can be as intolerant as Fred Phelps, I consider Andrew Sullivan to be a brother in Christ. Our differences of opinion--and they are profound--are trivial when compared to that relationship." If you were so inclined, you could read the complete article and the subsequent commentary here.
I can't imagine why Joe began this article with a comparison of the intolerance of Fred Phelps (the "God Hates Fags" preacher from Topeka, Kansas) and Andrew Sullivan. It was an odd way to begin an article, but I will pass that over to get to the statement that I wish to discuss: "I consider Andrew Sullivan to be a brother in Christ." This statement caused an immediate reaction among Carter's readers, the majority of whom are, I presume, Christians. Sullivan is, after all, proudly homosexual and an advocate of homosexual rights. Richard John Neuhaus has argued, correctly I believe, that homosexuality is the polestar of Sullivan's journalism, so obsessed is he with this aspect of his identity. He is a vocal advocate of the rights of homosexuals to marry and has been a pioneer in issues such as gays in the military. Sullivan considers himself a Christian and is a practicing Roman Catholic, though he constantly criticizes the Church for its views on homosexuality.
Among the comments posted on Carter's site is this one by "Eric and Lisa:" "I find it curious that you call Sullivan a brother-in-Christ. A man who unrepentantly engages in homosexual activity. So curious that I wonder if you would ever see fit to say that anyone who says they are your brother-in-Christ are not?" Glenn asked a similar question. "Just curious, by what criteria do you consider Sullivan a 'brother in Christ?' I know he waves his catholicism about pretty boldy, but his 'Christianity' could be entirely civil and not spiritual. I'm not trying to pass judgement here, but what fruit has his tree produced? What testimony do we have of his faith in the work of Christ? By what means do we consider him a brother and not reprobate?"
Joe responded that he bases his assumption that Sullivan is saved upon his earlier profession of faith, pointing to an interview with Sullivan in the Right Wing News. Sullivan said:
As to one's own faith, I think it's possible to maintain a prayer life, a relationship with the Jesus of the gospels, and an attempt to live out those ideals in one's life while remaining a proud gay man. In some ways, I think the experience of marginalization that homosexuals have can deepen their spiritual life. Jesus' message, after all, was that faith belongs to the excluded; and that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The exclusion of gays from the Catholic church is an opportunity to grow closer to Christ, not further away. But it might mean that to reach Jesus, one has to bypass the hierarchy of the church.
Carter went on to say that he would "even go so far as to say that Sullivan appears to be a very immature believer. But I'm not sure that I can say that he is not my 'brother.'" He said, correctly, of course, that "I'm not sure I have the authority, though, to say that he is 'one who is predestined to damnation.'" For indeed humans are not able to make such judgments. In answering Eric and Lisa Joe says, "Unfortunately, I know plenty of believers who believe that certain activities (pride, gluttony, etc.) are not sin and are not completely repentant. But I'm not ready to write all of them off as apostates just yet." He then provides a fairly lengthy explanation of what he meant by "brother in Christ."
Let me clarify what I mean by a 'brother in Christ' by defining what I don't mean when I use that term: I don't mean that I know their salvation is assured (only God knows the answer to that one); I don't mean that I have evidence of his regeneration (he appears to have a long way to go on the road to sanctification); and I don't mean that he is not on the road to apostasy. All it means is that I take him at his word: that he confesses to being a follower of Jesus Christ.Obviously I take issue with Sullivan's unrepentant homosexual behavior. But while I truly believe his sin has ensnared him in a trap of self-deception, I think he has convinced himself that his behavior is not a sin. This doesn't let him off the hook, but I do believe it is different from someone who does recognize that they are committing sin and they do it anyway.
What it ultimately comes down to is that I am not ready to excommunicate Sullivan from the fold – at least not yet. I may eventually get to the point where I no longer believe that he is really a 'brother in Christ.' But for now, I'll still make room on the pew for Sullivan, Pat Robertson, and a few others whose 'fruit' I consider questionable.
I provide this as background information so you can understand what I will discuss next. I was intrigued by Carter's affirmation of Sullivan's faith and immediately dedicated some effort to attempting to decide what I believe on this issue, which really goes far deeper than just Sullivan. I will use this example of Andrew Sullivan to springboard a discussion on who we are to assume is a brother in Christ. This article represents my thoughts. As I understand it, there are two main issues here. The first concerns a profession of faith made by someone who is outside the authority of a "true" (a term I will define shortly) local church. The second concerns a profession of faith by someone who is involved in ongoing, unrepentant sin.
Not too long ago I posted an article (which you can read here) called "The Ultimate Human Judgment" in which I discussed when and how humans can judge the faith of other humans. Much of what I believe on this issue is summarized by Dave Swavely in his excellent book Who Are You To Judge?. Here is what Swavely writes in regards to the acceptance of a profession of faith:
"[R]egarding who are the wheat and who are the tares, they [the apostles] left that judgment to God - except in the case of those who were under church discipline. The biblical writers did not attempt to determine or distinguish true believers from false believers within the church. They accepted people's profession of faith, as long as it was a credible or biblical profession; and they treated all members of the church as believers, unless the process of discipline proved otherwise. We should therefore do the same."
How we define a credible profession of faith may vary slightly from church to church, but it should definitely contain an affirmation that the person is saved by grace through faith, should affirm many of the doctrines concerning the nature of God and the person should have been identified with the church through baptism or other forms of membership. If a person has professed faith, been baptized and been received into membership his claim to be a believer has a certain level of credibility. Conversely, if he has refused to be baptized and to be received into membership we would have a good reason to be concerned about his profession.
It seems clear from this explanation that, in order to assume that a profession of faith is genuine, the person must attach himself to a "true" church. How we define a true and false church has been the source of much dialogue and disagreement in the centuries since the Reformation, but I am inclined to agree with the three marks proposed during the Reformation and which are summarized in the Belgic Confession, Article 29, which says "The marks by with the true Church is known are these: If the pure doctrine of the gospel is preaching therein; if she maintains the pure administration of the sacraments as instituted by Christ; if church discipline is exercised in punishing of sin; in short, if all things are managed according to the pure Word of God, all things contrary thereto rejected, and Jesus Christ acknowledged as the only Head of the Church."
When a person has made a profession of faith and is a member in good standing of a true church, as defined by these three marks: the preaching of the Gospel, the administration of the sacraments and the exercise of church discipline, I believe that we are under an obligation to assume that this person's faith is genuine. I quote again from Swavely:
I would suggest that when someone has professed personal faith in Christ, been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and identified with the church, we are then under obligation from Scripture to make no negative judgment about the validity of his faith. That obligation remains even when a professing believer seems to exhibit a lack of fruit, or even if he commits repeated and heinous sin, because in those cases the other members of the body of Christ are called to encourage, admonish, and if necessary discipline him according to the process Jesus outlined in Matthew 18:15-17. Each of those means of sanctification are based on the presupposition that in most cases the Holy Spirit is present and operative in the sinner's life. Otherwise they could not be effective in helping that person to grow in grace and to put away the sin against which we all continue to struggle.
This is important, for we have affirmed that a person can be involved in ongoing and unrepentant sin and still be assumed to be a believer, provided that he is within the context of a local church and is receiving necessary discipline. For, as Swavely has pointed out, unrepentant sin leads to discipline, a process which still assumes the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person's life. Thus we can still assume of such a person that the Holy Spirit is operative in his life.
I think that most believers would agree with me to this point. But, of course, things are not always so simple. In the case we are examining today, Sullivan is not a member of a true church. This places him in the company of many today who consider themselves Christian but reject the local church as being fundamental to the nurture and development of their faith. Furthermore, his profession of faith is made within the context of Roman Catholicism. If he holds steadfastly to the doctrines of Catholicism, as he claims to, he cannot affirm such fundamental doctrines as justification by grace through faith alone, the very heart of the gospel. What are we to do, then, with a profession of faith made by a person who is outside the God-given oversight of a true church?
I would suggest that in a case like this, it would be helpful to consider what would be different if Sullivan were to be a member of a true church. Like everyone else in North America where churches abound, he has had every opportunity to place himself under the authority of a biblical church. And this is exactly what we would expect of a person who has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We would assume that such a person would be naturally drawn towards other believers. Yet Sullivan has decided not to place himself within such a church. He has even suggested that he must "bypass the hierarchy of the [Roman Catholic] church," which marginalizes him based on his sexual preferences. He has removed himself from authority and accountability. It is clear that, if he were to attend a church that exercised biblical church discipline, Sullivan's homosexuality would have placed him under the discipline of the church. This would have been done lovingly in an attempt to save him from his own sinful behavior. If he was not convicted of his sin and did not turn in repentance, it would be assumed that he was not saved and the church would bear the sad responsibility of excommunicating him in the hope that this drastic action would cause him to repent.
Now for the issue of Sullivan's homosexuality. Were he a member of a true church, and even if he were under the process of church discipline, we would be obligated to assume that his faith was genuine, despite his homosexuality. As it stands, though, he is outside the realm of the church's authority and thus I feel we have no obligation to make such an assumption. We do not need to understand his sin to be despite the Holy Spirit being operative in his life. It is just as likely that his unrepentant sin is evidence that the Spirit is not operative.
As I understand it, then, because of Sullivan's unrepentant behavior, and because he has deliberately avoided placing himself within a true church, the proper context for all believers, I feel that we have no obligation to assume that he is a true believer. Of course this does not necessarily mean that he is unsaved. By God's grace he may be. Neither you nor I can know for certain. But neither do we bear the obligation of assuming that he is a brother in Christ.



Comments (32) »
1. s. zeilenga
May 17, 2006
10:37 AM
Great. Very deep article that I will probably have to read a couple more times to get the fullness of it.
I love how you write, Tim. It makes me think you need to try your hand at a book. But, that is up to you.
Anyway, thanks.
z.
2. Kim T
May 17, 2006
10:49 AM
Well written. Good discernment. Truth treasuring. Thanks Tim.
3. billmelone
May 17, 2006
11:03 AM
Tim, I really like how much you delved into the issue. But I’m not sure I’d take issue with Sullivan’s being a brother on the grounds that he’s not part of a ‘true’ church. There are plenty of folks out there (esp. people in parachurch stuff) that don’t put themselves under the authority of church yet that live lives in submission to God in every other way. Thats not to mention that I think its much harder to define a ‘true’ church than you’ve made it.
I think its much better to look at the profession and see if its credible (ie. in line with the Bible), and from the quote you provided, I don’t think theres enough to tell either way. But I wouldn’t look to the issue of defining church to be the grounds here.
4. Bo
May 17, 2006
11:19 AM
Good post Tim. I would also agree w/ Bill above; however, b/c if I remember correctly, A.W. Pink came to the place in his life where he could not place himself under the authority of a local church b/c he felt that the church (evangelical) was largely apostate. (This was in Ian Murray’s biography I read a couple of years ago). He and his wife worshipped together on Sunday mornings, but he was not in a church at the end of his life. He certainly held to essential doctrine, but he was “para-church,” at best.
5. Brian Thornton
May 17, 2006
11:37 AM
Sullivan considers himself a Christian and is a practicing Roman Catholic, though he constantly criticizes the Church for its views on homosexuality.
- He can criticize the Church all he wants for its views on homosexuality…it is Holy Scripture that he will ultimately have to deal with.
The whole 1st chapter of Romans is - obviously - quite appropriate for this topic.
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. - Rom. 1:25-27,32
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. - Heb. 10:26-27
6. Tim Challies
May 17, 2006
11:38 AM
I did not suggest, or mean to suggest, that a person can only be assumed to be a believer when he is within the context of a local church. Rather, I mean to say that we can only be required to assume a person to be a Christian if he exhibits ongoing, unrepentant sin when he is within the contenxt of a church.
The issue is not about who is in or out, but who we are obligated to assume is in or out.
7. Rick
May 17, 2006
11:40 AM
I skimmed so I may have missed something important, but according to this mark of a true church:
“if church discipline is exercised in punishing of sin”
I dont think there are ANY true churches. None that I have come across.
8. Chris
May 17, 2006
11:44 AM
Very stimulating article. I commend you on how you chose to phrase your conclusion:
“…we have no obligation to assume that he is a true believer.”
I think that is well put. You aren’t saying he isn’t a believer, just we aren’t required to acknowledge he is a believer.
9. Dallas Pymm
May 17, 2006
11:52 AM
Very deep thoughts Tim. I enjoyed this very much. I agree with much of what you said. I do agree with Bill that not being a member of a true church does not disqualify someone from consideration, however if they were not truly searching for a local body or had no desire to do so, one could probably see that as suspect.
Also, regarding if he was a member of a true church, I think there is a difference between admitting you are homosexual and actually committing the act. If he was a member of a true church and it was obvious he had participated in homosexual activity, Matthew would not apply. Paul addresses serious sin in 1 Corinthians, Paul rebukes the church for winking at a man who has slept with his father’s wife, and there is no 3 step process. Paul says that the next time they gather he is to be delivered to Satan, with a hope for repentance. I think this would apply to a practicing homosexual. If he were simply declaring that he was homosexual, I am not sure what would be appropriate. Matthew is regarding sin against another brother, I guess you could assume this belief harms the local body. I don’t know. Any thoughts on this?
“As I understand it, then, because of Sullivan’s unrepentant behavior, and because he has deliberately avoided placing himself within a true church, the proper context for all believers, I feel that we have no obligation to assume that he is a true believer. Of course this does not necessarily mean that he is unsaved. By God’s grace he may be. Neither you nor I can know for certain. But neither do we bear the obligation of assuming that he is a brother in Christ.”
Great point in this last paragraph Tim.
10. Aaron
May 17, 2006
12:05 PM
I’m having trouble seeing how an openly unrepentent homosexual can possibly be born again given 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. We certainly cannot determine who the elect and the reprobate are, but aren’t we to help people to see the current state of their soul using the standard of scripture?
Certainly homosexuals can be saved and may even struggle with that sin after salvation. But it will be a struggle, and they will hate the sin. Are we doing people any eternal favors when we assume their salvation (and let them know that) when it seems so apparent that they are yet unconverted by scriptural standards? Am I way off base here?
11. Dan S.
May 17, 2006
12:15 PM
Very much agreed, Tim. Thanks for putting into words what I have sometimes found difficult to articulate.
With some people it’s easy to say, “this is a brother in Christ.” For others, while I do not want to say they are unequivocally not brothers, it is difficult to say, “this is a brother in Christ.”
I think you have framed your point well (if I understand it correctly) in asking the question, “do we have an obligation to assume everyone is a brother in Christ?”
12. RobertZ
May 17, 2006
1:34 PM
Very thoughtful and well-constructed article Tim.
I think this is an important issue because it seems that an important underpining of the emerging “spiritual non-belief” version of evangelicalism, is that the only unpardonable sin is to suggest that someone else is “outside the camp.”
While we know from our background in certain streams of fundamentalism that believers can get sidetracked in an unhealthy aspect of hunting for infidels rather than promoting a positive, proactive Gospel ministry, there is still an important Scriptural theme of discernment being required of believers. Church discipline as addressed in 1 & 2 Corinthians for example, while clearly having restoration of the transgressing brother as a chief goal, also points to the protection of God’s flock as an important result. If that dueling restoration-protection motif is present, (as opposed to making pronouncements for the sake of sounding right in people’s eyes), such line drawing is entirely appropriate.
2 Cor 5:17-21
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He had committed to us the word of reconciliation.
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
13. Scott
May 17, 2006
1:41 PM
“…he has had every opportunity to place himself under the authority of a biblical church. And this is exactly what we would expect of a person who has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit….a true church, the proper context for all believers.”
Well said, and I think this is a key point of correction for many who claim to belong to Christ, not just those living in blatant wickedness.
I agree with your assessment, Tim, that we are not obligated to assume anything about Sullivan. We should hope for his salvation, but we need not (indeed in this case, I would say we should not) assume it.
In these situations, I think we must be careful in how we say things - terminology affects theology (not my phrase). We need to be careful that the way we lovingly speak about those outside the church does not in any way soothe their conscience and propagate their self-deception (which Carter acknowledges Sullivan is under).
Sullivan does not need affirmation, even if it is tentative in Carter’s mind. Sullivan needs a firm and loving rebuke and a warning like we find in Colossians 1:23 and Hebrews 3:14, “…we share in Christ, if…” And I’m right back where you conclude, because he would get this in a true church.
14. Dallas Pymm
May 17, 2006
1:55 PM
I think it is worth pointing out that by the definition of a true church in this article it would make it impossible for an openly proud homosexual to be a member of a true church. If they were, the church would be quick to punish the sin and the person would repent and remain, or stay in sin and leave. I guess it is fair to say then that if someone is an openly proud homosexual, they are either not members of a true, or not a member of any church. This seems correct to me.
15. billmelone
May 17, 2006
2:41 PM
Tim, thanks for clarifying about the lack of obligation being the issue.
Dallas—what about the issue of the fact that Andrew does not think he’s in sin? I have a friend who I would have sworn was saved but then found out that she considers herself lesbian and not in sin (shes not just lesbian in her head).
16. Dallas Pymm
May 17, 2006
2:50 PM
“Dallas—what about the issue of the fact that Andrew does not think he’s in sin? I have a friend who I would have sworn was saved but then found out that she considers herself lesbian and not in sin (shes not just lesbian in her head).”
I am not sure what you mean about your friend. Does she just not use the term lesbian?
I was saying that a true church would discipline the one in sin. The fact Andrew does not think he is in sin is irrelevant. Scripture says he is.
17. Darren
May 17, 2006
7:49 PM
Tim, this is a challenging piece and a good read. I agree with your argument overall, but I think it is harmful to the argument (and theologically closed-minded) to introduce the suggestion that the Catholic Church is not a “true church.” We Protestants ought to be as gracious as (somewhat remarkably) our Catholic brothers and sisters are in their statement that “We know where the gospel is, but we do not know where it is not.”
Sullivan and other unrepentant homosexuals have a difficult set of obstacles to surmount if they are going to convince believers (in a world where church discipline is sorely lacking) that one can operate in unrepentant sin and still be a member of the body of Christ. Let that be enough. No need to introduce the anti-Catholic argument.
18. Brian Thornton
May 17, 2006
9:18 PM
No need to introduce the anti-Catholic argument.
Darren,
It is NOT an “anti-Catholic” argument…but a PRO-Gospel declaration.
Those within the Catholic Church who hold to the doctrines of the Catholic church are outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity…regardless of the fact that they name the name of Christ.
There is only ONE head of the church…Jesus Christ. And one who hold to the beliefs of the Catholic Church cannot stand with me on that. If they say they can, then they either consciously shun their own Church’s doctrine, or they are ignorant of it.
Just because they are willing to include us Protestants in their circle, that doesn’t obligate us to return the favor. You say we Protestants should be as gracious as the Catholics…it is funny you use that term, ‘gracious’…for Protestants (those who know what their beliefs actually are) stand on justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone.
19. Darren
May 17, 2006
9:51 PM
Hi Brian,
The matter of whether or not Catholic doctrine has placed the entire organization and its faithful members outside the bounds of historical Christian orthodoxy (first we must define that boundary — is it Chalcedon?) is a large and deep subject. I happy to offer my views on it, but for the purpose of this post my point is really that it’s an unnecessary addition to Tim’s argument that, for many readers such as myself, is off-putting.
Grace and peace to you.
20. wfseube
May 17, 2006
9:52 PM
Is there not a relationship to sancitification here? I have no idea when (if) Sullivan made a profession of faith. But one cannot expect a sinner to immediately cease sinning when he begins to follow Jesus. Sanctification is a gradual process where the Christian begins to move away from sinful behaviour towards holiness. When regeneration occurs, one does not become a non-sinner. They become capable of not sinning, and that realization that their sins must be abandoned begins to nag at them. This is a common complaint about us conservative Christians - that we believe sinners to immediately stop sinning when they become Christians. It just doesn’t happen. We become perfect in God’s eyes at the point of regeneration, but we do NOT stop sinning.
I believe it is possible for a practicing homosexual to be regenerate and on the path of practical sanctification, but that person has not yet yielded their will to the will of God…thus they still engage in that sin. This is true of many Christians and many sins. It’s just that homosexuality is a more “overt” sin that is particularly noticable, and it has been much easier for Christians and non-Christians alike to try to justify it because of silliness like the “gay gene”.
I agree with your assertion about attending a church and coming under church discipline. However, as another poster pointed out, there are precious few churches out there, including those I would consider a “true church,” that don’t do such a hot job with church discipline. And as you well know, someone can be “in the closet” to the point where the church wouldn’t even be aware that they need to conduct church discipline.
A bigger problem for Sullivan than that the fact that he is at a church that is not conducting church discipline is probably that he is at a church where the Word is not being preached such that he is convicted that his sin is indeed a sin and something from which he must repent.
A good article on regeneration, justification and sanctification: http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=361.
Also, John Piper has an excellent sermon on “pressing on to maturity” at http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/96/100696.html. In that sermon, he states “(God) has final say in whether we overcome our bent to sinning and make progress toward maturity. We will press on to maturity if God permits it. That is, we will make progress in our sanctification and holiness if God permits it. He decides ultimately if and how fast we advance in holiness.” I’m not sure what that means in this instance, but I do believe that it is God’s work that will take Sullivan to an eventual point of sanctification where he abandons his sin IF he is truly regenerate. I think that it is not a slam-dunk certainty that he is not regenerate, based upon the principles of sanctification.
21. Dallas Pymm
May 17, 2006
10:24 PM
Some good points wfseube.It is also Bill right? Sanctification should be considered when considering salvaltion.
“I believe it is possible for a practicing homosexual to be regenerate and on the path of practical sanctification, but that person has not yet yielded their will to the will of God…thus they still engage in that sin. “
This might be true, and only God knows. The issue is are we obligated to believe they are saved? An openly practicing homosexual would never be introduced as a member of a true church. Either the sin would be pointed out after a so called conversion, and repentance would take place, or they would disagree and would not be welcome to membership. If Paul would deem sleeping with your father’s wife unrepentantly a justifiable reason to excommunicate, it would seem logical that homosexuality, another sexual sin, would be a justifiable reason to forbid membership, or excommunicate. If a true church would not invite them to membership and thus consider them a brother in Christ, should we have to? I don’t think we do. Does this make sense?
22. Brian Thornton
May 17, 2006
10:46 PM
Is there not a relationship to sancitification here? I have no idea when (if) Sullivan made a profession of faith. But one cannot expect a sinner to immediately cease sinning when he begins to follow Jesus. Sanctification is a gradual process where the Christian begins to move away from sinful behaviour towards holiness.
Yes, sanctification is a gradual process…but salvation results in a new creation…one that I find hard to believe would still deem homosexuality as okay.
One of the things I remember hearing from one of the founders of Exodus (I think that was the name of the group that helped homosexuals get out of the lifestyle) was that he had NEVER talked to a guy who came out of the lifestyle that didn’t know in his heart that he was involved in an abominable way of life.
I say that to say this…IF Sullivan is a true brother of mine in Christ…he knows that what he is doing is sin, pure and simple. Even if he is NOT a believer, he may still know that it is a sin, or God may have already given him over to his desires, as described in Romans 1.
Also, Tim’s point about whether or not Sullivan is part of a true church or not is very important. It is no insignificant matter in this whole discussion.
23. Bill Barnes
May 18, 2006
1:25 AM
I am not sure if I can add to this but I want to try.
Firstly, my respect for Tim Challies is mounting. I haven’t agreed with him on everything but his reasoning is solid and, most importantly, he knows his Bible. On this issue I think he has it pretty well nailed. Perhaps the greatest testimony to a dying world is Christ’s church.
John 13:34-35 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
So, I think Sullivan should, or would, if he was truly moved by the Holy Spirit to a church that preached “Christ crucified”.
I would like to make a confession though. I find it easier to condemn homosexuality, because I don’t struggle with it, than greed/materialism, which I do struggle with. I certainly don’t think the Bible is wrong about greed or homosexuality - they are sins! I am certainly not saying that we should move an inch from what we know to be the truth - God’s Word. But what WFSEUBE said rings very true to me. It’s a lot easier for me to hide my sins than it is for a homosexual. It makes me very thankful for the Cross of Christ and perhaps a bit more loving of those who stuggle with homosexuality.
24. Brian Thornton
May 18, 2006
10:06 AM
It’s a lot easier for me to hide my sins than it is for a homosexual. It makes me very thankful for the Cross of Christ and perhaps a bit more loving of those who stuggle with homosexuality.
Bill,
If the sins you are trying to hide are wilfull, unrepentant, defiant sins against a holy and just God, then we need to place you in the same category as Sullivan. But, I seriously doubt that is the case.
I think a key word you used in your comments is “struggle”… sin that you and I struggle with, and fight against our old nature to keep from doing, is much different than open, defiant, in-your-face rejection of the truth as revealed is Scripture.
Yes, we must speak the truth in love…but speaking it in love in this instance biblically requires some reactions to Sullivan that the world (and sadly, many Christians) would call unloving.
25. Kim T
May 18, 2006
10:18 AM
Brian, While I am not getting any sense from your writing that you need encouragement- I do want to encourage you. The gracious and loving way you are interacting on this blog, and your steadfast holding to biblical principles and biblical teaching are appreciated. While I know they are being gifted to you from the LORD Jesus Christ as HIS SPIRIT works in you- I still wanted to acknowledge this publically to you. Continued grace and peace to you in the LORD..
26. donsands
May 18, 2006
10:47 AM
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither …” 1 Cor. 6: 9-11
There is an ex-homosexual in my church. He is delivered, and sees his sin for what it is and was. He has been washed in the blood of our Savior. He truly loves the Lord and serves Him. He worships the Lord in Spirt and in truth.
He has shared with me how powerful this sin can grip a person. But God does deliver. There may be those who struggle, but it would be a genuine struggle, as we all do with our flesh. But the Holy Spirit is stronger than our flesh, and the new heart we have is not like the old one.
There are good minitries out there that specifially are equipped to deal with this particular sin.
27. debtor2grace
May 18, 2006
12:05 PM
I guess because I read a lot of John MacArthur in my formative Christian years, I just assume everyone is not a Christian until they prove differently :)
28. Kansan
May 18, 2006
2:33 PM
Hmmm…The way I read Matthew 18:17 is that if a man is in sin, you confront him. If he doesn’t repent, you take someone else with you and go talk to him again. If he doesn’t repent, you bring it before the church. If he doesn’t repent then, you treat him as an unsaved man. So, if a homosexual man rejects the church’s discipline, I’m going to assume he’s unsaved. This is what I would do with Sullivan.
29. Brian Thornton
May 18, 2006
2:54 PM
Brian, While I am not getting any sense from your writing that you need encouragement- I do want to encourage you.
Kim T…
Thank you so much for those comments. They have made my day!
Grace and peace to you as well.
30. Joel
May 19, 2006
1:00 PM
If he doesn’t repent, you bring it before the church. If he doesn’t repent then, you treat him as an unsaved man. So, if a homosexual man rejects the church’s discipline, I’m going to assume he’s unsaved. This is what I would do with Sullivan.
Kansan, that’s a good point. Sullivan has not responded obediently to the discipline of his own Church, let alone sought the standards of other churches. Regardless of how outsiders view him, he is properly out of commmunion with the Catholic Church. If a priest is administering the sacraments to him, then the local bishop needs to put a stop to it until he repents and is reconciled.
31. Joel
May 19, 2006
1:08 PM
Tim, this is a challenging piece and a good read. I agree with your argument overall, but I think it is harmful to the argument (and theologically closed-minded) to introduce the suggestion that the Catholic Church is not a “true church.”
Darren, I have to disagree with you. It was necessary for Tim to acknowledge that Sullivan’s Catholicism is a factor in the question. There are a good many Protestants who believe that Catholics are outside the circle of Christianity. I know Tim’s reasons for believing as he does, and they are neither stupid nor malicious nor self-rationalizing. I think he’s dead wrong, of course, but his attitude is not an anti-Catholic one as such. I think he would rather be able to say that Catholics were brothers, but feels he can’t honestly do so. I respect that a great deal.
And in the company that gathers on this blog, it’s far from safe to assume that a Catholic’s Christianity will be recognized by a significant number of readers. If Tim hadn’t pointed out that Sullivan’s Romanism was problematical, be assured that a host of his readers would have.
32. Mickey
June 9, 2006
8:01 PM
Hey, thank you for this post. I’ve linked it here
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