Over the past few weeks I have noticed a fair bit of discussion in the blogosphere about the subject of influence. Various bloggers have been attempting to define influence and to understand which bloggers are the most influential. This is a surprisingly difficult topic for influence truly is difficult to measure and define.
It is tempting to understand influence in ways that are easily quantifiable. Blogs have long been ranked primarily in two ways: traffic and inbound links. Traffic refers to the quantity of visitors a site receives and a site that receives a great number of visitors is perceived to be more influential than one that receives only a few visitors. Inbound links refer to the number of links to a blog from other blogs. The blog directory BlogStreet says simply, "Influential Blogs are those blogs which are blogrolled by other Top Ranking blogs." This metric is premised on the understanding that bloggers will link mostly to sites that they consider worthy of attention. By placing a link on their site to another site, they are, in a sense, giving it a vote of approval and admitting influence.
I believe that these are both unsatisfying measures of influence. And yes, I understand that in saying this, I am indicating that a tool like Truthlaidbear is mostly useless. I have long observed that traffic and influence are not always related. It seems clear that it is not only quality or influence that draws readership, but controversy. Blogs that dwell on controversy (and in the Christian sector "controversy" is, unfortunately, often synonymous with "discernment") tend to attract a lot of readers but I am not convinced that these sites hold influence proportional to their readership. Inbound links should be a measure of influence, but links are often tossed about with little thought, thus reducing their meaning and effectiveness in determining influence. Yet, because they are easy to measure, they continue to be the most common measures.
Adrian Warnock recently proposed several measures of influence. He proposed the following: The number of people who read your site or your "hit rate;" The number of people who read more than one page and then become regular readers; Your ability to send your readers to other websites and/or to cause them to want to buy certain products; The number of people who link to you in a blogroll; How many comments you get; How many other bloggers link to specific posts you write and interact with them; WHO reads your blog – if the leaders of your field pop by and then take your ideas to influence others, you have a bigger direct influence than someone who is read only by "novices;" How much of an impact positively or negatively you have on your readers." These metrics are generally not easily-quantifiable and are thus, in some ways at least, less satisfying. However, I believe they are also quite useful. I'll discuss each one very briefly.
The number of people who read more than one page and then become regular readers. I'm not entirely sure what Adrian means by this, but I assume he is discussing the number of pages per visit--how many pages the average visitor reads when he visits a site. This is a reasonable measure of influence, but can be easily upset by the way a blog is constructed. For example, some bloggers prefer to post the complete text of many articles on the main page of the site. A visitor to this site can read several day's worth of articles without visiting a second page. On the other hand, some bloggers prefer to post only excerpts of each article on the main page. Such blogs will have a much higher number of pages read per visitor, and yet this has nothing to do with influence. Either way, this is very difficult to quantify.
Your ability to send your readers to other websites and/or to cause them to want to buy certain products. Or, put more succinctly, your ability to convince a reader to take a particular action. I consider this an important measure of influence and in many applications the most important measure. After all, for a blog based around politics or selling goods, this is the only measure that really matters.
How many comments you get. This metric is, at least to some extent, a byproduct of the number of visitors a site receives. Yet it is also an indication of the level of interest generated by a site's posts. However, it can be influenced by the themes and contents of a particular site. When it comes to blogging, controversy generates buzz and excitement. I have often lamented the fact that an article describing some great work of God is likely to receive a lot less attention than an article expressing anger or disgust about another person. Controversy sells.
How many other bloggers link to specific posts you write and interact with them. This is an important measure of influence within the blogosphere and even beyond the blogosphere. After all, a person who chooses to discuss an article written by another blogger is admitting that the other person has some level of influence over him.
Who reads your blog – if the leaders of your field pop by and then take your ideas to influence others, you have a bigger direct influence than someone who is read only by "novices." In other words, a site is influential if it influences other influencers.
How much of an impact positively or negatively you have on your readers. This one is nearly impossible to quantify, but is intriguing as a somewhat abstract idea. There are certain blogs that almost always leave me encouraged and satisfied while there are others that leave me beaten down and discouraged, even after only a short visit. Perhaps we can extrapolate long-term impact from these short-term experiences.
I think something needs to be added because different blogs have different emphases. For example, a site that directs people to other resources has a different, less-direct influence than one that is based primarily around teaching or exposition. Mitch Ratcliffe, who has done a good bit of thinking on this topic writes, "When looking at influence, we have to dig very deeply into narrow spectrums of network relationships." He goes on to "contend that there are layers of influence based on different interests among writers, *but* the existing relationships we have with the writer (or podcaster or...) do carry over into areas where they are not necessarily "expert" or consistently writing about. Understanding how those marginal relationships can be amplified is important to seeing into the flow of influence." In other words, bloggers are not influential within a void, but are influential within a particular area. That area may be as wide as the blogosphere or a sector of the blogosphere, or as narrow as only a small portion of it.
Joe Carter has also discussed influence recently and has determined that the most influential bloggers may be those who link most to others. "John Schroeder makes the intriguing claim that linking is a form of blogging servant leadership. 'He's absolutely right about everyone wanting to be a Chief (agenda-setting thinker blogs are one example) and no one wanting to be an Indian (i.e., value-adding linker blogs). While most bloggers tend to be both, I'm becoming more convinced that the truly influential bloggers will be those who spend the majority of their time on linking-style activities. Justin Taylor is a prime example. I work on a university/seminary campus and hardly a day goes by that I don't hear some version of 'I heard on Justin Taylor's blog...' He's the kind of servant leader we could use more of in the blogosphere." Without belittling Justin's blog (one of my favorites) or Justin (a friend and I guy I want to grow up to be just like, even though we're about the same age), I disagree with this claim. I do think link blogs like Justin's hold some type of influence, but surely the greater influence is in the hands of those who write the material these blogs link to! Justin is clearly influential, but I am not convinced that this is a product of the number of other sites he links to.
So how do we measure influence? Truthfully, I don't know that we can. There are clearly a few blogs in each sector that every other person knows or seeks to emulate. There is not a political blogger in the world who does not know of Instapundit. There is not a Christian blogger who does not know of Evangelical Outpost. These bloggers have somehow become influential and I would like to think they have done so simply by posting large quantities of good information and by dedicating themselves to the task of blogging. I do know that several companies are attempting to create a tool that will analyze the blogosphere and quantify the influence of each blog. I am eager to understand their methodology and to see the results of their efforts. I hope that, within the Christian blogosphere especially, we can have bloggers who do not seek to be influential, but who seek to serve others and to serve the Creator through this task. If He gives influence, may these men and women use it to honor and glorify Him.
As an aside, I noticed that Matt Galloway, who has also invested effort in understanding the blogosphere, has imagined a "Blog Influential trend tool." "What would a Blog Influential trend tool like? It would have to have a way to set the base to be known Influentials within the area of interest - instead of a doomed to fail attempt at the whole blogosphere." In other words, a person wishing to understand a particular sector of the blogosphere, but it technological, religious or political, would need to map the trends at only a handful of the most influential blogs. I suspect that Galloway is correct, and that whatever tools are created in the coming months and years, will use this type of methodology to map trends within the blogosphere.



Comments (38) »
1. Aaron
July 25, 2006
11:33 AM
Is figuring this out an exercise in futility? Can traffic patterns, links, and even surveys (something our culture is getting better and better at creating) measure true influence on a person’s soul? Does any other influence really matter? Hmm… It is an interesting thing to consider. I read a tech article a while back that suggested number of “visits” reported by most site tracking software is probably very inflated over actual unique numbers of individuals (something in the order of 2-4 times). I maintain a few sites and check the stats occasionally but wonder sometimes if they are even close to accurate.. then wonder if what is there is influencing anybody in the eternal sense. Of course, that is a task only God can accomplish, but He does use His means.
Ah, and I read the A La Carte and laughed because I happen to be eating cheetos (as we call them in the US, unless you are thinking of something else) right now. It is probably not a good idea to type and eat them. So an uncreative suggestion for a word: cheastain.
2. Mike
July 25, 2006
12:08 PM
I find myself in agreement with Aaron in his initial remarks: I’m not sure what the value is of determining who is “most influential” in the Kingdom of Blog. If that appellation is bestowed, should we all rush to the site to be influenced? I don’t understand the point. I read blogs that edify rather than influence me: edifiying blogs facilitate the work of the Holy Spirit; influential blogs facilitate the work of … the flesh? the blogger?
Or maybe I don’t understand what is meant by the term “influence” as used here.
This discussion also reminds me of the disciples squabbling over who was going to be greatest in the Kingdom of God. I think we all need to stop looking at our own numbers and accomplishments and begin looking to God for His estimation of what we write. I might be caustic, abrasive, and arrogant (come to think of it, I am all those things) and be very influential and very popular - I won’t name any other names here - or I might tell the truth and spend my time in relative obscurity with only a handful of readers.
(Or, as in my case, I might be caustic, abrasive, and arrogant and then languish in total obscurity!)
Who is greater? More importantly, who among us is fit to say who is greater?
Or maybe I’m just too old for this kind of competition.
Why not this: you read what you want to read and find edifying, and I’ll do the same. What you (Tim) find edifying in the writings of some dead Calvinist, I might find uninspiring; conversely, what I think is profound in the writings of an “heretical” dispensationalist, you might find to be the source of all problems in Protestantism.
Who is most influential is likely to come down to who confirms the biases of most blog readers. Cynical? Perhaps, but probably true all the same. Ultimately, we are influenced only by those whom we allow to influence us, for better or for worse.
3. Ochuk
July 25, 2006
12:09 PM
I think “influential” is a bit flattering for the world for blogs, but it is possible. I, along with Alan Jacobs, feel that they are better for dispensing information rather than shaping and molding ideas. Perhaps the blogsophere as a whole is “influential” as it has been proven in elections and such; but the primary function of blogs is journalistic.
When we talk about influential blogs we are really talking about influential writers or journalists. These are the kind of people that start on-going discussions. Michael Spencer, for all his followers and haters, would be influential. Phil Johnson would fall into this category as well. People reference them, talk about their posts, and relate to what they may or may not feel.
Justin Taylor’s blog is not influential in this sense because he doesn’t write a lot. BUT it is still a very good blog in that it dispenses awesome, dare I say “influential,” information.
Other blogs, and I think you might fall into this category, serve as mouthpieces for a certain project or archetypes. You seem to be one the best things that has ever happened to Crossway Books, and large pastor/national conferences love your platform for getting their word out.
Others, like me, have a lot of people linking to them, a good RSS readership, blog traffic, a trackback here and there, and a fair amount of comments. These people usually speak to a small, regular audience and may hold influence in that way but never in the large sense.
And you are right, controversy sells, and all is gained is enemies and some hopelessly devoted sympathizers that are always wanting to co-opt you into a larger cause.
Wow. I should have written this on my own blog. :P
4. Chris Poteet
July 25, 2006
1:15 PM
I found myself “God blogging” for no other purpose but to voice my theology to the maximum amount of people possible, and then I realized how foolish and unglorifying that is to our God.
I had to, and still continue to, develop an interesting in writing that ultimately seeks to ensure that God is glorified in my words and interaction with others. Anything less is certainly not influencing anybody.
5. Phillip
July 25, 2006
1:19 PM
One potential measurement of influence not mentioned in the post is the number of people subscribed to a blog’s feed. This indicates the amount of people who intentionally desire to be exposed to the content of a blog (aka influenced) as it becomes available. I’ve offered more thoughts over at my blog.
6. 4ever4given
July 25, 2006
2:03 PM
I have found it interesting that anyone would even read the posts on my blog. What is shocking is to randomly find a blog and see that i am linked there even though that person never posted a comment on my blog. I also tend to get a whole lot more e-mails from my blog readers than comments. That tends to happen most on my testimonial posts.
The most interesting experience I have had with this blog world is when you, Challies, linked me on your a-la-carte. You have done this 3 times so far and each time my readership skyrocketed. My favorite that you linked was when I linked and wrote about those horrid TBN videos and then gave a link to Compassion International as a better way to spend your “grocery money”, as Jan Crouch would say to those poor elderly ladies. Of the several hundred that came to my blog that day, about 40% of them out clicked to the Compassion International site. Now, I couldn’t tell you if anyone signed up to sponsor a child. I can only hope. But to me, that indicated the huge and I am sure unexpected influence of Challies blog. (I read somewhere in your archives that you initially began blogging as an on-line journal… more for yourself.) THat actually influenced me to change my right sidebar to have “ministry opportunities” on the top. I also realized that it was important for readers to know how much I genuinely love and respect my husband.
I am thankful for the opportunity to read several blogs… others, not so much. I have my favorites. THis is one of them. THe rest are linked on my sidebar.
I have also been told by some of the women in my church that my blog is a source of encouragement and my pastor even leaves comments. I think the most important thing to do when blogging is to not so much worry about trying to be heard as seeking to bring glory to God and never posting anything at the expense of the Gospel. I have made several mistakes, but I thankfully have several people holding me accountable to what I write… my husband, pastor, and some of the Godly women in my life. My pastor even sends women to my blog that have expressed interest in our church and homeschooling. So again, another reason for my hands to reverentially tremble at the thought of pushing “post”… I have to think of the reputation of my husband, my church, etc.
7. Mike
July 25, 2006
2:38 PM
One more thing, if it may be allowed:
I was thinking this morning about a sermon I heard long ago by Ron Dunn, a remarkable, expository, Baptist preacher. One of his points in his sermon on prayer was that the apostles had virtually no influence in Jerusalem following the Day of Pentecost. In the corridors of worldly influence, they were paupers.
But, although they didn’t have the influence to keep Peter out of jail, they did have the power to pray him out!
We have mistaken influence for power; we have settled for the influence of political lobbyists, book sales, and blog hits but neglected the power available to us by the Holy Spirit as He answers our prayers.
So there may be blogs of influence, but that is not the same as being a blog of power. Keep the influence, if you like, but I’m hoping to tap into just a small bit of the power of God that He offers to His children.
That’s not meant to sound smug, superior or like “sour grapes” from someone on the far end of the tail, but just a reminder about what is important and what is not, what is valued in the eyes of God and what is valued in the eyes of men.
8. Jason
July 25, 2006
2:59 PM
I have no delusions of grandeur. As 4ever4given stated, I’m usually shocked to learn that someone bothers to read my site.
However, God has shown me that He’ll use what He wants as He sees fit. I’ve had comments from soldiers in Iraq, a priest in Korea, to a school teacher in Michigan state that they were touched by a particular thing they found on my site.
The numbers may not be large, but the few folks I’ve heard from lead me to believe that I’m “influencing” who God would have me influence.
No single individual is called to reach everyone - but we’re all called to witness to those we encounter. Each one of those are divine appointments, be they few or great in number.
9. Travis Hilton
July 25, 2006
3:29 PM
I think the bottom line that you point out is that influence is made with content. Justin links to blogs that are high in content on a wide variety of subjects. He may not be the main influencer but he has to take partial credit for the service he provides. He has credibility, as do you. That alone means influence. These things are difficult to measure, but they are a major reason for the influence. Trust is built through a consistent contribution in linking to sites that will provide valuable information and insight. I beleive it was Joe Carter that called it “sheperding.”
10. Tim Challies
July 25, 2006
4:24 PM
Travis - I think you may be onto something with the words “trust” and “credibility.” Once people find someone they trust and deem credible, they allow that person to influence them. So I would think a person who wishes to be influential would first seek to be trustworthy and credible.
11. Leslie
July 25, 2006
6:10 PM
Great post, Tim!
12. David
July 25, 2006
6:26 PM
too funny
How about just going with how many subscribe to your RSS feed?
It seems to me that a direct link can be made as to impact by how many people care enough to be updated as soon as you post something new.
13. Steve Camp
July 25, 2006
7:18 PM
Influence should be defined on moving another to act to a set of ideals or truth claims. Christian blogging should be defined by content and the ability to engage on ideas from a biblical worldview and then by God’s grace wee them move to action in response to truth.
IOW, mere dialogue is not enough. The superfluidity of words must be measured by a change of living. Ideas have life if coupled with causing people to act. “Hearers and doers” as Dr. James would say.
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
14. Bus Driver
July 25, 2006
9:08 PM
Our website (and blog) is the repository for the 10-15 light-hearted limericks written weekly for use in teaching the ‘Thru the Bible’ type class at our local church. The current 1000+ lims will grow to about 4000 over the next few years, Lord willing, as we complete the Bible Bus Tour. On this site we cast them as bread upon the waters (Ecclesiastes 11: 1) trusting the Lord to use them as He sees fit. They are designed to fit the future generation of 2x3 screens on hand-helds.
15. Jim
July 25, 2006
9:27 PM
The above-mentioned website is www.biblelimericks.com
16. Rick
July 25, 2006
9:53 PM
I think the true mark of influence is making the Challies side-blog and only getting one comment off of it. sniff sniff
17. Mike
July 25, 2006
10:10 PM
Steve:
Given that your typos make it a little difficult to know precisely what you’re saying, I’m not sure about what you understand to be the difference between influence (as I think you’ve defined it) and persuasion and/or manipulation?
I’m also not clear on what you mean by “superfluidity of words.” Did you perhaps mean “superfluity,” as in superfluous or excessive? If so, then I understand, but if you mean the “frictionless” nature of words, then I don’t.
At any rate, I agree with your goal but don’t see a post, blog, or blogger as the desired agent of change or motivation. Our jobs, as Christians or bloggers, is to create an environment, provide information, or present an argument that facilitates the work of the Holy Spirit. He, as I’m sure you would agree, is the desired Agent/Person of change.
But certainly we are to be doers and not merely hearers: as Christ says, we know these things but we are only blessed if we do them.
18. Brian Thornton
July 25, 2006
10:13 PM
The beginning of the end of truly edifying Christian blogging is when influence is gauged by numbers…whether it’s hits, links, RSS feeds, etc.
I’m afraid those who wish to become influential bloggers - and who determine their world wide web value by any sort of numbers - are engaging not in an exercise in futility…but idolatry.
Any blogger who doesn’t admit that they check their ‘numbers’ and get more satisfaction and a higher sense of meaning when they are higher is either fooling himself/herself, or the very rare exception.
How is this any different than the idolatry that takes place in churches across America that are so obsessed with their numbers, they have resorted to doing just about anything to drive them up?
Influential bloggers? The ones that truly are, are probably the ones that truly are NOT concerned with such numbers that supposedly gauge influence…which means that truly influential bloggers are probably as rare as biblically healthy churches.
19. Francisco
July 26, 2006
12:50 AM
Posts who seek to edify the Body of Christ. That’s what I like to read. One reason that keeps me from blogging is that there are so many good ones out there! I benefit from a handful. Sometimes they point me out to good resources that in the long run edify me. Sometimes it is their own thoughts, that seems to me more original. But at the end, if the blogger is rooted in Scripture and cross-centered that is to be treasured. Now, I ask if the body of Christ is not edified to glorify God more with mind, heart, hands and wallets, then what is the point of attempting to influence people? Now I remind you Godbloggers of this quote. Just change ‘song/concert’ by ‘post’ and ‘music’ by blog:
“I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert, if my music, and more importantly, my life has not provoked you into Godly jealousy or to sell out more completely to Jesus!”
— Keith Green
20. Bill
July 26, 2006
3:51 AM
Gotta love people of faith, always believing fairy tales.
Santa Claus is to little kids as God is to adults.
21. Jerry Morningstar
July 26, 2006
8:07 AM
Bill - comparing God to Santa Claus? Are you implying that to believe in a creator God is to indulge in fanciful belief with no basis in reality?
Perhaps you have bought the Freudian myth that people believe in God because they wish that God exists - so they therefore make Him up. ‘Wish fulfillment’ may certainly seem plausible from some perspectives but be careful before you buy it. The argument goes both ways. Perhaps you wish there not to be a God who looks at your life and who says He is going to judge you for it - so you consider Him a fairy tale. The wish becomes father to the belief - with no basis in reality.
Have you ever considered the evidence for Christ? Do you believe that He was a historical figure, legend, myth? I would encourage you to not to be so confident in your ‘belief’ without checking out the facts. A good place to start would be ‘I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist’ - by Geisler and Turek.
People have been trying to bury belief in God for many years - but faith always seems to outlive its pallbearers.
The reason for this is that man in his heart knows there is a God - but some men choose to suppress that knowledge or deny it. This denial is an offense to the God who created us and lets us live in His universe and breathe His air and eat His food - enjoying the goodness of His creation.
The only proper response to such an amazing and powerful God is to give thanks and worship.
What you must ask yourself is: ‘Am I looking for the truth or an excuse not to believe?’
22. Mike
July 26, 2006
9:46 AM
Jerry:
Bill is a troll. That’s why he basically posts anonymously: no link to any website, no link to any personal information. He doesn’t have the courage of his own convictions, if he even has any convictions. He’s simply someone without a moral compass who detests people who do possess one - even if we too often misread it.
Ignore him and he’ll go away.
23. Barb
July 26, 2006
11:00 AM
I tend to agree with both Mike (I do read your site) and Jason.
As Mike said, ‘we are only influenced by those whom we let influence us’. Blogs with high numbers of readership doesn’t necessarily mean they are all that influential. I’ve visited some blogs simply because I had read one particular blog article I found good or helpful; yet, when I returned there was nothing of substance there. I quickly lost interest in that site. And some of the ones with the most hits do not influence me at all.
I tend to blog about things that interest me, and some of those have gotten a large number of readers, and, on occasion, some harsh, hateful remarks. But, I believe that, if you do ‘blog for God’ - that is, make sure what you say edifies rather than breaks down - others will take away from your blog the feeling that you are indeed a child of God. And, sometimes, that makes the devil mad (I’ve had my share from this one woman lately!). But, you get the message out; they keep coming, and who knows what an influence you are having on their lives. Some might not admit it, but something is drawing them back, regardless of the negative comments you get.
By the way, Mike, hopefully, your bit of information - ‘ignore him and he’ll go away’, will also apply to this one woman who has taken on herself to downgrade me on her blogs and in comments on mine. I hid her comments and stopped comments on those two blog entries so others would not be influenced by the hateful things she’s said about Christians to me. I just think she’s mad at God, not me, and I’m getting the brunt of her hate. (She went from Christianity to Buddhism and lives with an atheist).
24. Jerry Morningstar
July 26, 2006
12:57 PM
Thanks Mike for the info. I was originally planning on commenting on topic - but was side tracked by ‘Bill’s’ comment. I do think blogs have influence. I think there is a use for them - perhaps as iron sharpening iron.
25. Bill
July 27, 2006
4:07 AM
Actually, I just came by this blog because I saw it on CSS drive.
Feel free to visit my website at http://baerwcb.tripod.com/
Have you ever seen God?
I rest my case.
Religion was and still is a way for people in power to control primitive people. It worked back then and it works to this day.
Jesus Christ did exist. He just was not the son of God and never turned water into wine and all of that stuff you read in your fairy tale books — excuse me, I mean the Bible.
I’m a troll? I guess you could say that, if by troll you mean one who voices an unpopular opinion. But is your opinion any better than mine? Absolutely not.
26. Bill
July 27, 2006
4:10 AM
I also meant to say that I enjoy the layout of your website. I was perusing CSS Drive for ideas for redesigning my website.
I’m not going to redesign my site as a replica of this — too much on the screen for my taste — but very well-made nonetheless.
How long have you been doing web design and how did you become so knowledgeable about it? I almost majored in it in college and am instead pursuing a degree in Journalism.
27. Jerry Morningstar
July 27, 2006
7:55 AM
Bill - thanks for the reply. You sound like you have had a pretty negative experience with religion. Just because you have never seen or met someone doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I’ve never met Tim Challies and I’m pretty sure He exists. When it comes down to it - belief in God is a matter of faith - but it is a reasoned faith that corresponds to reality.
Consider this - if there is no God - then there is no basis for morality or meaning to anything in this world. We are just the products of random, uncaring, unthinking forces of nature that happened to produce life in all its complexity.
If that is the case - why do we think some things are morally wrong? Why do we believe it’s wrong for me to kill my neighbor? Why do we believe that it’s wrong to rape or to steal, etc.? Now a person may say they don’t think these things are morally wrong - but the minute you do these things to him - he will certainly feel in his heart that it is wrong.
That sense of right and wrong is one of the many pointers to God’s existence. Just like this website points to Tim’s existence! The moral law is a fingerprint of God upon us.
If life really has no meaning - if there really is no basis for morality - we ought not feel this sense of right and wrong. We should just be indifferent to the things that occur in this world - no matter how horrendous. But - instead - we are morally outraged at things like the Jewish holocause, the rape and murder of a young girl. Can anyone truly say that these events are meaningless? As an atheist - that is the logical outgrowth of your belief
You think religion is used to control people. Do you know why you feel that way? The Bible tells us why we have sin and evil in this world. It is because man does not want to do what God tells him to do - He wants to do his own thing and be his own God. If everybody obeyed God - there would be no sin, no murder, no rapes, etc.
At heart - the reason we find evil in the world is because man has rebelled against God. This rebellion is so strong that we don’t even want to acknowledge God as our Creator. We don’t want to live by His rules. We would rather pretend that He does not exist and that we somehow got here by chance. That seems to me to be the true fairy tale.
I have lived by the ‘no rules’ - be my own God lifestyle. I found that it left me empty, shallow and in a lifestyle that would eventually kill me. What I found in Christ is not someone who wants to control me - but someone who I want to obey because He knows how life is meant to be lived. God created us and He knows how life works and how it doesn’t. Right now - you are directing your life according to your own rules that you are just making up as you go along. I pray that you will see that God is not someone to run from but to run to.
God is not calling you to be controlled by other people - He does call you to let Him direct your life though.
If we think God is controlling - that is sort of like saying a parent is controlling who tells their child not to play on the roof of the house.
Faith in Christ begins where we say, ‘God I am tired of running my own life. I turn from all this sin and garbage and want to follow Jesus. I believe that He died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins and that He rose from the dead.’
Bill - you seem to be a thinker. If you are interested in looking more closely at these issues - I would encourage you to read, ‘The Twilight of Atheism’ - by Alister McGrath or ‘Can Man Live Without God?’ by Ravi Zacharias.
God’s grace be with you,
Jerry
28. Bill
July 27, 2006
8:33 AM
I haven’t had a negative experience with religion, I just reached what I like to call the “Age of Reason.” I don’t need to believe in fairy tales to live my life.
You say there is no basis for morality if there is no God. That’s adding two numbers that don’t need to be added — they’re two separate entities. Religion preaches morals, God does not. Faith in God is merely a byproduct of religion. I live a very moral life and I’m an atheist: I don’t steal, I respect everyone, etc.
The sense of right and wrong is not proof of God’s existence. We didn’t have a sense of right and wrong until well into the existence of humanity. Did cavemen have a sense of right and wrong? Not until a society with rules was set up were these “morals” established.
You say that if everyone obeyed God, there would be no murder and rape. Religion is the leading cause of death throughout history. World War II was started in part due to religion. The Palestine-Israel conflict is religious. Christians “obeyed God” and yet they burned so-called witches at the stake. Many American soldiers accused of raping prisoners in the Middle East are of the Christian faith.
Ah, but if everyone obeyed God there would be no murder and rape. True. Of course it’s true — it’s obeying God, a.k.a. following the rules of society.
There is no right way to live. What is right to you may be wrong to someone else. The only things we can cohesively agree on is that killing is wrong (unless in self-defense) and so is stealing — both of which are laws in the United States of America (I assume you’re from there, as I am).
Jerry, I’ve read a lot including the works of C.S. Lewis and Christianity is nothing more than a way to live one’s life. It was started as a way for those with power to control primitive people. Who needs the fairy tale when you can just live by its tenets? You don’t need to believe that there is an invisible man in the sky — a man whom no one has ever seen — who watches over you 24/7, and has a place full of fire and anguish if you go against any of his Ten Commandments.
29. Kevin Stilley
July 27, 2006
9:47 AM
Bill,
You say that we should not believe in God because we have never seen him?
I have never seen your brain, should I believe it is non-existant?
ks
30. Bill
July 27, 2006
4:19 PM
Yes, because it is scientific fact that all humans have a brain.
You have never seen the wind, should you belive that there is no wind? No, because there is scientific fact that wind exists. You can feel the wind rush through your hair.
You have never seen God. There is no scientific fact that God exists. You have never felt God. You have never heard God. He doesn’t exist.
31. Natalie
July 27, 2006
8:54 PM
Does it really matter who is most influential? It just reminds me so much of the disciples asking Jesus who would sit at his right hand when he took his throne. Not really something we should be thinking about. Tough, though, I know.
32. Jerry Morningstar
July 27, 2006
10:59 PM
Bill - wait a minute. Where are you getting your ideas about early Christianity? There was no power over the masses? The early church was a persecuted minority with no political power at all. Yet - they were willing to die for their faith. I realize that people will die for what they ‘believe’ is true but yet may be false [muslim hijackers, etc.] But the early disciples were in a position to ‘know’ whether or not Jesus rose from the dead and they died for that truth. 10 out of the twelve died as martyrs for the faith. Why die for something which you know is a lie? There was no earthly incentive to be a Christian - in terms of power or prestige. Their reward was scorn and derision.
Sure religion has played a role in many wars. Some of those religions are just plain false belief systems. Also - not everyone who claims the name of Christ is truly a Christian. The crusades may have been done in the name of Christ but were in clear violation to His Word. The true fruit of Christian belief is justice and peaceableness. How did religion start WW II? I look at Hitler and I see a man who wanted nothing but to get rid of God and to be his own god. He derived much of his philosophy from the writings of Nietzsche who advocated the great ‘God is dead’ teaching. How much carnage did Hitler unleash on the world? Stalin - it’s now known that he probably killed more of his own people than Hitler killed of his enemies - all in the name of an atheistic communism. Atheists may live somewhat moral lives - but if they do - they are living better than their philosophical beliefs warrant
Generally speaking - to remove God from the picture means, ‘anything goes morally’. What compelling reason do you have to act ethically? You are on a road that will only lead to a moral free fall. You cannot divorce morality from God. That is to cut down the tree but to keep sitting on the branch.
You don’t like the idea of a God watching over you 24/7. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Are there any answers? You and I cannot escape the fact that we live in a universe where nothing ever comes from nothing. We are here - who put us here? Ravi Z calls this the ontologically haunted universe. We see effects - we hear sounds - who made them? What is going on here? What is the explanation? Answer: God
Belief in Christ is no fairy tale. The true fairy tale is believing that for all our sins, acts of selfishness, greed, idolatry, murders, rapes, lusts, blasphemies there will be no judgment.
Thanks for reading this. It’s obvious you haven’t made your decisions casually or flippantly - but I think there is far more evidence you need to consider
33. H.M.
July 28, 2006
12:15 PM
When you look around at all the world and see all that has been created, you must realize that there was a creator. Don’t you? If you are of the “Age of Reason”, than can you not logically “reason” that something greater than we has created the vast universe and not a chance explosion or bang. And if so, where did the material to “bang” come from? It had to start somewhere, and it started with the Great “I AM”.
34. Bill
July 29, 2006
5:15 PM
I’ve italicized snippets of your post which I am directly responding to.
Why die for something which you know is a lie?
Because they, like the billions of other people of faith, have been utterly brainwashed.
not everyone who claims the name of Christ is truly a Christian.
Who are you to judge who is truly a Christian?
We see effects - we hear sounds - who made them? What is going on here? What is the explanation? Answer: God
Easy answer that requires no cognitive thought or evidence? God.
Hard answer that does require cognitive thought and extensive research that can be proven with fact: The Big Bang and Evolution.
35. Jerry Morningstar
July 29, 2006
6:15 PM
Bill - that’s it? I’ll keep my faith. You can keep believing that rational, thinking, creatures came from non-rational, non thinking, forces that somehow spewed us out of the slime. I think my faith makes more sense. Yours ????
36. Steve Camp
July 29, 2006
10:11 PM
Mike
Sorry for the typos. “wee” should be “see” and “superfluidity” should be “superfluity”—didn’t proof read—my bad.
Keith Green was a dear friend of mine and it is 24 years ago that he died. I miss him greatly. I spent a few days with him at Last Days just one month before the plane crash. That is a very good quote.
Blogging is at its best when it can speak from the truth of God’s Word to the issues of the day and cause others to move toward Christlikeness in their lives.
Bill:
The gospel is this: Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst offender. He is God incarnate come to this earth Immanuel, God with us. He lived a sinless life; died in our place on the cross; and rose bodily three days later. He reigns as King and Lord from the right hand of the throne of God. Repent of your sins, confess Him as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Come to the end of yourself man… and trust solely in Christ for your salvation. May God grant you saving faith to escape the wrath to come.
I will sincerely be praying for you—it would be wonderful to have you as my brother in Christ.
Grace and peace to you,
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5-7
37. Bill
July 30, 2006
6:17 AM
It appears that you’re not allowing my comments to show, so this has basically ended up as every other conversation I’ve had with Christians has ended: their not being able to back up their faith in God with substantive evidence and my subsequent censorship.
Like I said, I enjoy the layout of your blog as well as your writing, but don’t write this stuff if you’re not willing to hear the other side of the story. Surely God would agree with that. “Respect thy neighbor” or something along those lines?
If you’re willing to continue a mature, uncensored conversation, feel free to continue by listing any proof of God’s existence. Where science has the Big Bang Effect and Evolution, religion has nothing.
What do you think is easier to believe — that we came from a dime-sized pack of dense matter which exploded billions of years ago, or that Jesus came back from the dead, something which no one has ever done. Sounds too science-fiction to me.
38. david
July 30, 2006
9:52 AM
Bill,
You are not being censored. Your last comment contained links, so the spam filter caught it.
As it is, though, your comments have been allowed, against my better judgment, in spite of the fact that they are not on topic, and you have not supplied your email as required. You say you’re not a troll, but that is trollish behavior.
If you wish to participate in these threads, keep your comments on topic. You may not hijack a thread to serve your agenda. You may start your own blog for that purpose. If you wish to continue your argument, I suggest you do so by email.
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