"The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment is a truly important work-one that should be required reading not only for church leaders, but for all sober-minded laypeople as well."

John MacArthur (From the Foreword)

"If you were more discerning you’d probably buy this book. If you do read this book, you will be! This book on discernment is simple, clear, well-written and well-illustrated...

Mark Dever

Welcome to the online home of Tim Challies, blogger, author and web designer. My first book, "The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment," is now available everywhere.

Read about the book, about the blog or about the author.

10/16/06
Comments (21)

The Church and its Dirty Laundry

Blogs have provided a unique platform for a great many people. As blogs have gained some degree of credibility beyond the blogosphere, members of the mainstream media often turn to bloggers for opinions. A lot of bloggers, despite losing confidence in the mainstream media, still consider a mention in a major magazine or newspaper to be the holy grail of blogging. In recent months, I have often been approached by media outlets, ranging from CNN to the Wall Street Journal, asking me to comment on various stories they are developing. Because I once wrote a good number of articles about Rick Warren and The Purpose Driven Life, I am still routinely asked to comment on Warren and his ministry.

Being asked to provide information for stories in the mainstream media has forced me to think a little bit about what my attitude should be in this situation. In general, the requests come in two forms. The first is from news outlets that are writing stories about Warren and are looking for success stories. This happened last year after that bizarre situation where Brian Nichols, who had recently committed a murder, took hostage a women named Ashley Smith. Smith read Nichols sections from the book and he eventually released her. Just as I was finishing up work for the day, I got an email from a very friendly producer at CNN wondering if I would be interested in contributing to a story they are working on. Intrigued, I said that I might just be. She called me a few minutes later and it turns out that CNN was working on a one-hour special on life’s purpose. I could not tell if it was a special only on The Purpose Driven Life or on purpose in general. Either way, they were interested in knowing my views on the book, and in particular, if it had changed my life. I felt like I was letting the producer down when I told her that it did not. She asked how many people I knew who had read the book and how many had had their lives changed by it. I answered that I knew hundreds who had read the book but none had seen radical transformations in their lives, letting her down even further. She asked whether I agreed with the book and I told her that while the book had some valuable things to say, I had some pretty clear disagreements with many of the book’s main points. And that was that. They kept searching and eventually found what they felt were some good stories. There was one short section in the broadcast where they mentioned that not everyone believes in this book. The only person they spoke to in this regard was John MacArthur. MacArthur questioned the validity of the book’s message that God wants me to be who I am and that He will use me on my terms. Interspersed with his comments, CNN cut to other people comparing MacArthur’s ministry with Warren’s, stating that Warren’s is twice as large and stating in no uncertain terms that other pastors are merely jealous of the Purpose Driven phenomena. They even insinuated that MacArthur is one of “those fundamentalists” who believes in a stern God and played a clip of him saying “We’re going to see about devastation, wars, judgments to come.” John MacArthur was presented as a jealous, petty man and CNN made no serious attempt to show that there are serious and biblical concerns with this book.

The second form requests take is from reporters who are trying to show that the church is divided on whether Rick Warren is helping or hurting Christianity. I have had a couple of reporters ask to interview me about this. I have accepted the invitation to speak to them, but have been very careful with my words and have spoken largely “off the record.” The last time I spoke to a reporter I told her that I was really unwilling to give her a lot of fodder to work with, explaining that, despite what I feel are the errors of a man like Rick Warren, I love the church and am generally unwilling to air out its dirty laundry before the world. I likened her questions to a reporter calling me and asking for dirt on my wife so they could write a negative article about her. I was sympathetic to this reporter who, writing for one of America’s most important periodicals, was attempting to figure out why the press is tripping over themselves to praise Rick Warren and to devote precious space to him. Her conclusions on this could be very important. I gave her a couple of trails to follow, but refused to say anything too negative about Warren. I just didn’t want to see myself quoted in her eventual article as an anti-Warrenite. My memories of what CNN did to John MacArthur are still fresh.

So I guess my opinion towards commenting to the mainstream media is that I am exceedingly cautious. There are several reasons for this. First, I see little reason to provide examples of Christian infighting to the world. There have always been and will always be struggles within the church and, in general, I think it is best that these remain within the church lest they damage the church’s testimony. Second, I see little reason to hope that the press will somehow help or resolve the issues that we wrestle with as Christians. Without the Spirit they cannot properly understand the issues and without the Spirit they have no hope of commenting on them in a way that is truly helpful. Third, I have little confidence that the press will be honest and unbiased in their presentation of information. If I did not believe this before MacArthur made his appearance on CNN, I certainly believe it now. In short, while the press may give wide exposure to a particular problem, and while it may somehow seem to validate a particular blog or blogger, I don’t know that it is at all helpful.

But having said all of this, I am eager to hear other opinions. I’d especially love to know how others who have been placed in this situation have dealt with it (perhaps John MacArthur or Al Mohler have written something about this, since they are often called upon by CNN and other outlets, though if they have written something, I have been unable to find it).

And while we are on this topic, Newsweek’sBeliefwatch” is asking why Rick Warren is no longer bulletproof. For the past couple of years he has been praised within the church and without. But “in recent weeks he hasn’t seemed so bulletproof, and one has to wonder why. The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal have put him on their front pages in not wholly flattering lights: the former for helping push a tax break for clergy through Congress, the latter for selling a church-revitalization strategy that some pastors say doesn’t work.” Newsweek then mentions Ingrid Schlueter and her blog, “Slice of Laodicea.” “In her blog, syndicated Christian-radio talk-show host and producer Ingrid Schlueter has devoted herself to critiquing megachurches in general and Warren in particular; she is irate about lots of things, including his ‘hula ministry.’” Just a few days ago (link) I commented that it is easy to summarize an entire blog on the basis of only a few articles. While Ingrid has definitely critiqued megachurches and Warren, I don’t know that she’d agree that this is what she has devoted herself to (and, by extension, what she has devoted her blog to). But the fact that the Newsweek reporter sees things this way, reminds me of how important it is to think deeply and carefully about each article that finds its way onto my site. It would grieve me if, when people thought about myself or my site, they thought first that I am against Rick Warren or The Passion of the Christ. It would grieve me if they thought first about controversy, about the graceless things I may have said, or about the sometimes graceless things said by commenters.

The Church and its Dirty Laundry

Comments (21) »


1. Jabbok
October 16, 2006
10:36 AM

I was flipping around on the tube last night and came across the 60 minutes interview with David Kuo who has just released his new book, “A Loss of Faith”. He was hired by the Bush administration to head the “Faith-based initiatives program” but has since resigned.

My son asked me what I thought of that and I read a portion of a book I’m reading. I also put this quote on my website a few days ago but I think it’s applicable for your article as well. It’s by James Boice and it’s found on page 24 of Whatever Happened to the Gospel of Grace. Here is a snippet: “…many evangelicals have abandoned the bible all the same simply because they do not think it is adequate for the challenges we face today. They do not think it is sufficient for winning people to Christ in this age, so they turn to felt-need sermons or entertainment or “signs and wonders” instead. They do not think the Bible is sufficient for achieving Christian growth, so they turn to therapy groups or Christian counseling. They do not think it is sufficient for making God’s will known, so they look for external signs or revelations. They do not think it is adequate for changing our society, so they establish evangelical lobby groups in Washington and work to elect “Christian” congressmen, senators, presidents, and other officials. They seek to change by power politics and money.”

I think Warren, Fallwell, Robertson and many others would fall into this category. I don’t think the mainstream media has a clue and I don’t think they would understand what Boice is talking about. Talking with them is pretty much a waste of tme.

Bill Clinton is my cousin and when he was running for the presidency and even during his presidency, our family was swamped with reporters from all over the world. My mom, aunt, cousins and grand-parents have all been quoted in various magazines and newspapers. It seems flattering at the time but it amounts to nothing.

Preach the Gospel and let the blind lead the blind.


2. donsands
October 16, 2006
11:22 AM

A lot of good thoughts on this post.

We certainly need to wise as snakes when we speak. Slow to speak, or blog, is always good. I like how you said we need to be”exceedingly cautious”. Amen.

But even when we speak the truth in love and are sharing from a heart that truly cares, we will be mistaken, and even resented. I hate it when it happens in the church. And I really hate it when it’s me who is doing it. Hopefully God will bring me to repentance, and I will be able to make ammends when I mistake someone. Thanks for these good thoughts. Much needed in the Church.

I miss Pastor Boice. He was quite the servant of the Lord. And I know he’s enjoying himself now. Excellent quote from him.


3. Jon
October 16, 2006
11:24 AM

Tim, just remember, some reporters, like myself, are Christians who do hope to make contributions in the press that help or resolve issues that confront other Christians.

“Second, I see little reason to hope that the press will somehow help or resolve the issues that we wrestle with as Christians. Without the Spirit they cannot properly understand the issues and without the Spirit they have no hope of commenting on them in a way that is truly helpful.”


4. Carla Rolfe
October 16, 2006
12:09 PM

I do have some (limited) experience with the mainstream media, and have to say that your position of being extremely careful with your statements to them, is a very wise position. While I have been quoted accurately, I have also watched myself spliced/diced and edited in an interview to say something I never said at all. It is amazing what folks will do to put their own spin on a story.

Something that I do think needs to be stressed here is that the passion many have for speaking out against what is wrong among the body of believers (whether on blogs, in books, websites, etc.), is mistaken or mis-labelled for simply being critical or harsh in general. It becomes what they are known for even if it’s not an accurate portrayal of where their heart is. What they are critiquing is overlooked in favor of the fact that they are critical in the first place. I find this a terribly disappointing thing, but it’s just the way it tends to work.

I do think there is a great need in our day to have a critical/discerning eye for much of what’s out there being accepted as “Christian”. With that said however, balance is very important, i.e., if we are going to be critical of a movement, teaching, etc., we’d best be prepared to give a good reason for it, and point people toward sound teaching with words that minister grace and do indeed build up and exhort the body in general to a better way.

You said: “It would grieve me if, when people thought about myself or my site, they thought first that I am against Rick Warren or The Passion of the Christ. It would grieve me if they thought first about controversy, about the graceless things I may have said, or about the sometimes graceless things said by commenters.

I understand this completely and have no problem admitting publicly it’s one of the deciding factors that went into putting Emergent No into archive/resource mode. I don’t want to be known for ENo and the controversy that some have made of it, and it bothered me a great deal that this is what was happening.

Obviously, what you’ve shared here is something that I relate to in a big way.

For what it’s worth…


5. Tim Challies
October 16, 2006
12:16 PM

“Tim, just remember, some reporters, like myself, are Christians who do hope to make contributions in the press that help or resolve issues that confront other Christians.”

That’s a good point. I should have mentioned that, when I speak to these reporters, I ask them if they are believers. To this point, none of them have been. I’d certainly be willing to speak differently with a Christian reporter.


6. Austin Storm
October 16, 2006
12:39 PM

Tim,

I really appreciate you exploring these issues. While I read your post I was thinking of Psalm 39. David is questioning the meaning of life, but he resolves to be quiet in the presence of the wicked. Later before God he pours out his doubts and frustrations.

the Lord be with you,

Austin


7. Michael Garner
October 16, 2006
12:58 PM

Tim,

Good comments. I remember that CNN special with MacArthur. They completely twisted what he said and and made awful insinuations about him.

I agree that we need to be really careful what we say (to the press or not) to avoid petty squabbling and unnecessary divisions in the church.

I do wonder if there is a line that can be crossed, where we should be willing to explain our criticisms to the media. For example, if a reporter calls and asks for an opinion on Robert Shuller. I think there is a point where our silence may actually do more damage than our criticism. I just wonder where exactly that line is.

In Christ alone, mike


8. Tim Challies
October 16, 2006
1:17 PM

Michael - I think it will depend somewhat on the forum. When MacArthur goes on Larry King, he knows that he will have time to say what he wants to say and that all that he says will go over the air. When he speaks to a reporter who will then edit the tape, there is no such guarantee. I could critique Schuller to reporter, only to have the article say something complete different.


9. lisa4given
October 16, 2006
2:58 PM

Our family seems to attract local newspapers wanting to do stories on our family. I honestly do not understand it. However, after several experiences with the local newspapers and even with reporters that proclaim to be Christians, our family has opted to not do this again. Why? Because they do, as Carla said, splice/dice and edit an interview to say something I never said at all. Even things that are supposed to be direct quotes from me are not what I said.

The sad thing is, that even in things I have written in a blog, that people have cut and pasted out of context makes me look like a chauvinistic legalist… well, even when I have just quoted Scripture I have still been labeled a chauvinistic legalist.

This made me want to quit blogging. Quit writing even though writing is something I love to do. But then I found an article that I wish I would have read when I first started blogging that I think I found on Challies a-la-carte, called “Blogging for an Audience of One,” which caused me to rethink that. So that is my goal… not only in blogging, but in life and in whatever I do… to bring HIM glory.

I look back in my archives and often wonder if I should delete some of the old articles I had written before I made this my goal in blogging. Honestly, several of my old posts, even though I have only been blogging since January of this year, did not honor the Lord. I have learned the hard way that jestful sarcasm comes back to bite me more often than not… even though I love to be jestful, writing it often does not display my heart in the words as much as I may think.

I am under construction as I work out my salvation with appropriate fear and trembling. I should also appropriately tremble before I hit publish… sometimes I still forget to do that.

Truly in the school if His unfailing grace, Lisa


10. theophilus
October 16, 2006
3:18 PM

I was recently criticized for an article I had written critiquing the “free grace” movement. After the article had been posted, several “free grace” folks had written responses, and I had been challenged to fire back a response. Part of my flesh wanted to come out with full guns blazing. However, after I had given it some thought, I realized that I didn’t want to become known as the “anti-‘free-grace’ guy”, but simply as a child of the King who never gets over the fact that Jesus would die for Him.

I let the article stand on its own, and am thankful now that my mind is free to love the truth we’re called to defend, rather than to being engaged in battles over it constantly. It’s true, we must defend the truth; but there is a balance between defending it because we love it and defending it because we’re pugilistic by nature.

Thanks for the thoughtful article, Tim. We appreciate the balance you bring to the blogosphere.


11. Michael Garner
October 16, 2006
3:20 PM

Tim,

I think that is fair.

So then possibly another quesiton. In retrospect, do you think MacArthur made an error in speaking with CNN? I know MacArthur came out and said that CNN blatently misrepresented him, but does anyone know if A) he regrets doing it B) would no longer consent to such an interview C) etc.

Thanks, mike


12. Lin
October 16, 2006
3:59 PM

Having two brothers who have been misquoted by newspapers many times, I can certainly understand your position. It became a running family joke to see how out of context their statements were presented. Every now and then their letter to the editor will be published but not often.

But look at someone like Al Mohler. He is either loved or hated. He has been torn apart by his local press and in the national press for being divisive and hateful simply for speaking truth about things such as seeker churches and other issues. It is a risk one must decide to take or not. I for one, do not think he is airing dirty laundry when he speaks out church issues.


13. Brian
October 16, 2006
4:11 PM

Tim,

This article is eerily timely because I just got off the phone two hours ago with a reporter with The Wall Street Journal who wanted to talk with me about a former church and a nationwide problem of sermon plagiarism. Thanks to your admonition, I am deciding against it.

Brian


14. wfseube
October 16, 2006
4:26 PM

While this borders on “What Would Jesus Do,” I wonder if we shouldn’t think “How would I say this if I were speaking to Jesus?” when we talk to someone about the church or others within it? If you were describing the “problems” of the church or some pastor’s alleged shortcomings, would you rear back and pound them, or would you temper what you say? I’m not sure that completely avoiding contact with the MSM and other outlets is necessarily the right thing (although I’ve never been placed in a position to decide!), but perhaps taking a different tact in how we talk to them is the way to go. Tim, it sounds as if your last encounter took that approach, and I believe it’s the right one.

bill


15. Edward G
October 16, 2006
5:04 PM

Brian, I am speaking as someone that is a part of a church that lost our pastor because he plagiarized sermons from Rick Warren’s pastors.com that he read word for word and more than that he lied in the pulpit by using personal illustrations as though they happened to him first hand. The Pastor was leading the church right down the PDC path and even followed the Transitioning book. My question is this: Where is our responsibility lie in warning our fellow christians and educating them about matters such as sermon plagiarism. The pastor who we had eventually resigned but muddied the water by saying he never plagiarized because he had permission to use the sermons. The general congregant is left confused about what it means to plagiarize a sermon. Though there is a risk for being misquoted, isnt there a greater good of warning our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ about such matters. One of the tactics that Satan uses is to get people to think that they are unique in their situation. By shining more light on areas in the church, people will be better equipped to spot areas of concern in the future. Discernment is so lacking in today’s church and the wolves in sheep’s clothing out there in many of the pulpits know this and take advantage of people through fear and manipulation.

Sorry to ramble but where does the obligation to our Brothers and Sisters in Christ lie?


16. Brian T. at VoiceoftheSheep
October 16, 2006
7:19 PM

Where is our responsibility lie in warning our fellow christians and educating them about matters such as sermon plagiarism.

Edward, I think you have hit on something vital to the problem of addressing these things, and not only how to go about doing it, but whether or not to open our mouths and “air” the dirty laundry.

One question that I think that is pertinent is this: what is more important, keeping our mouths shut for fear of being misrepresented in the public eye (and therefore possibly dragging Christ’s name through the mud)…or risking being misrepresented in the hopes that speaking up may be instrumental in opening someone’s eyes to the truth?

Tim, If the visible church wasn’t so anemic with respect to discernment, I doubt this would even be much of an issue at all.

I don’t know if this applies directly on point, but I suppose in certain situations it could with respect to talking to the media:

“sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;” - 1 Pet. 3:15


17. lisa4given
October 16, 2006
9:16 PM

I think 1st Peter 3:15 certainly does apply in many instances of opportunity to proclaim His unfailing hope… but when asked to do so to a media source that consistently misquotes or misrepresents would fall more into foolishness and throwing pearls before swine. So yes I would think, as you say, in certain instances, it would perhaps apply, but in consideration of the reputation of most media, it more likely falls in the misrepresentation camp (and I am not putting genuine Christian reporters in that lump… though, you have to admit there are few.) But then, if we all sit back and say nothing… what then? I think it boils down to simply trusting in our sovereign Lord and remembering that our primary duty is to bring glory to God in all things. I am not saying sit on our rump and shut our mouth. I am saying that we must be found proclaiming Christ crucified without compromise with a heart to bring Him ALL glory and honor and praise as we are called to do… as we earnestly contend for the faith, pray diligently and are consistently in the Word of God, as we, most importantly, live it out what we proclaim with our mouth both in times of plenty and in times of lean. How else can we be discerning in these matters?

(SIDENOTE: that blog post that I mentioned earlier was actually by Bob Kauflin called “Blogging to Worship God)


18. Jim Vellenga
October 16, 2006
10:21 PM

Thanks for the post Tim. I have never been approached by the media concerning Christian issues. When I worked as a manager in a retail computer store I was interviewed on something computer related, not that remember what any longer, but that was pretty straight forward. They asked informational questions, and I answered them. There was no opinion involved.

As for speaking to the MSM, 1 Peter 3:15 would certainly seem to apply, but I believe James 4:11-12 also applies,

[11] Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. [12] There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? (ESV)

We must be very careful in how we speak against those who are fellow Christians (I think similar things are true in speaking about non-Christians as well). There are a host of dangers in doing so.

First, there is the danger of not following the proper approach when a brother or sister is found in a sin. Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 18 would apply that the initial discussions must be with the actual person, not with everyone else especially the media. Even in step two (going with some other people to confront the person) and step three (bringing it to the church) it is not right to go to the media. I know their is not a direct comparision, but the principle would seem to be dealing with this with as few other people involved as possible until that is impossible.

Second, there is the danger of judging a person wrongly either by none biblical standards or because we do not actually know the person. Again, contacting them individually and seeking as much clarification as possible would be advisable.

Third, because of the remaining sin in our hearts, it is very easy to go from a correct judgment, to one that is self serving. That is, we can all very easily fall into the trap of showing how bad someone else is so that we look better.

Any or all of these may come into play, and they would all result, in one way or another, in us putting ourselves in the place of God who is the only judge.

These are dangers. However, just because there are dangers does not mean we should neglect making careful Biblical judgements. If that were the case why would there be passages such as those that warn against false teachers that call for followers of Christ to make a determination or judgement based on the fruits of that teacher, that is, examing their teachings very carefully. Teachings such as that in the Scriptures clearly show that there is a place for discerning judgement, but especially in situations where the media of this world comes asking questions, we must be very careful, because there are great dangers as well.


19. Hayden Norris
October 16, 2006
11:27 PM

Tim,

Great article!

Michael,

I used to attend Grace Community Church while in seminary and remember MacArthur telling us what had happened on the PDL TV special. He did express some regrets and told us he would only consent to doing live interviews in the future like Larry King Live.


20. Josh
October 19, 2006
11:08 AM

Actually it reminds me of a giant High School popularity contest. Its as if the entire population of America has retained their “popularity detector” and the settings are frozen at the age of about seventeen. “OOOoooh He is SOOOooo cool!”

Bleh.

Josh


21. William
October 26, 2006
12:31 PM

Thank you for writing this article Challies.