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Wednesday December 13, 2006

Why I Do Not Homeschool (Part 2)

Yesterday I began explaining why my wife and I have decided not to homeschool our children (and, hence, why we have decided to place them in public schools). I guess this article struck a nerve since, at last check, there were over 100 comments posted by readers. I received quite a few emails as well. Reaction ranged from “Way to go!” to “You are sacrificing your children to Molech!” You can read the article here. It will provide context for what I will say today.

Before I dive into today’s topic, I want to address a couple of points that arose in the feedback on my first article. A few people pointed out, and some with a bit of anger and/or sarcasm, that I didn’t actual say why my children were in public schools. That is true. But this is a multi-part article. We’ll get to it.

Also, several people were offended that I spoke of this decision in the context of Christian freedom and the weak versus strong distinction of Romans 14. Some people naturally assumed that I suggested I was strong because I send my children to public school while they are weak because they prefer to homeschool their children. I did no such thing. I merely indicated that one of us is weak and one is strong. What I said was this (and the quote comes from a series of articles on the topic written by my pastor): “depending on your view on this subject you may fall into the weak category or the strong category. In either case, you will be ‘tempted by the devil, the world and your flesh to either despise or condemn those who hold a different view from yours…Depending on whether you are weak or strong, you are being tempted to despise other members of this church or condemn other members of this church. If you deny that, you deny God’s Word. Paul does not say, some of you are in this weak/strong struggle. No, he says all of us fall into one or the other classification.’ The strong are tempted to despise and the weak are tempted to condemn. Let’s be sure that we do not fall into either sin.” You will know whether you are weak or strong by your reaction. If you are a homeschooling parent and you feel anger or hatred for what I said (and what I am about to say), you are strong. If, on the other hand, you condemn me for my decision, you are weak. Though it seems strange, the easiest way to gauge whether you are weak or strong is by your sinful reaction. In either case, I’d worry less about whether you are weak or strong and more about asking God for forgiveness because of your sinfulness. I’ll do the same.

And now, at long last, I will provide reasons that I send my children to public school and do so on the basis of conviction, not necessity. Do not expect to see me answer the usual charges levelled against those of us who choose to place our children in public schools. If you want to talk about those, go visit Dan’s blog and read about the myth’s of homeschooling in that excellent series. I am going to make this simple and address only two points. I have little faith that this article will convince or please anyone. Still, this is it. This is why my children are in public school.

For Missions

I believe that God has called every Christian to missions, whether we are born, live and die in our native culture or whether we choose to move halfway around the world and immerse ourselves in another culture. Every Christian is called to missions, for the Great Commission has not been rescinded and will not be until the Lord returns. We are all expected to fulfill this Commission to the best of our abilities. And this is a world in desperate need of the gospel. We have lived in our neighborhood for six years now and have never once seen even one of our neighbors head to church. As far as we know, we are the only Christians in the area. Canada is a spiritual wasteland and my heart bleeds for the people in this neighborhood, in this community, and this nation. As Christians, my wife and I are indigenous missionaries. God has placed us in this culture, among these people, and He expects us to reach out to them and to let the gospel go forth.

Trusting that my children will grow up to be believers, I am convicted that it is my duty as a parent, and as a Christian parent, to prepare my children to fulfill that calling in their lives. I believe they can best heed this call by being in the culture in which God has seen fit to place them. I want them to be with kids who are not Christians, to be friends with them and to love them, to learn what separates them from their friends, and to begin to understand how their convictions make them different from others. I want them to see and know and understand and believe in the superiority of Christianity to any other religion or way of life. I want them to see what the world has to offer and to see that it quickly loses its lustre.

I believe missions can and should happen everywhere. I find it difficult and painful to imagine a public school system devoid of Christians. Imagine, if you will, that every Christian pulls their children from the public schools. There will be no more Christian clubs in junior high schools; there will be no more prayer meetings or Bible studies at high schools; there will be no witnessing, no conversions. Christians will have removed the best indigenous missionaries from their natural mission field. I want my children to learn how to witness to their friends and want them to do it. Assuming my children are or will soon be young Christians, I do not want to deny them the ability and privilege of witnessing to others. New Christians are filled with joy and excitement and, while they may not know a lot yet, they are usually excited to share the gospel with others. I want my children to do this and to see their school as a mission ground. I want them to experience the joy of sharing their faith and to grow in their ability to do this.

There is another side to this. We genuinely love the people around us and want to know them, both so we can relate to them as friends and so we can, with God’s help, witness to them of His love and grace. Our children build bridges to the neighborhood. In sending our children to public school, we are building these bridges with our neighbors as our children are building friendships with their children. We are building friendships on the basis of our kids’ friendships. This is not to say, of course, that we only relate to our neighbors because we hope to convert them. We relate to them because we genuinely love them, care for them, and seek to know them both for what they can offer us and what we can offer them. We seek to love our neighbors as ourselves. We have credibility as neighbors and as members of this community by having our children attend the same schools as the other children. This weekend we are having a neighborhood-wide event in our home and every family who has accepted our invitation is a family whose children go to school with our children.

Now some may argue that young children are unready to be evangelists and that it is unfair to expect them of this. Once again, both experience and Scripture prove this a false assumption. If our children are believers, they are filled with the same Holy Spirit as you and I. They are equipped to reach out to the most tender-hearted segment of the population.

My wife and I feel called to reach out to the people in our neighborhood and our community. We simply do not feel we could honor God in this way and be as effective in doing it if we kept our children home. We would lose credibility, we would lose friendships, and we would lose access to the hearts of both children and their parents. At the same time, we would be raising our children with the expectation that they witness to others, all the while keeping them from the most natural context for them to witness, to learn how to witness, and to understand those to whom they will need to witness. Our deeds would contradict our words.

To Avoid Worldliness

I have often spoken to Christians parents who feel that public schooling offers too many opportunities for their children to become worldly. Their defenses of homeschooling often discuss the world’s problems and are then punctuated by comments like “This is why we homeschool!” Worldliness is clearly a serious offense in God’s eyes. It is an offense so serious that worldly people have to be concerned about their salvation, for as the Bible tells us, “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” Here is how John MacArthur defines worldliness: “Worldliness is any preoccupation with or interest in the temporal system of life that places anything perishable before that which is eternal.” Iain Murray says it is “the mindset of the unregenerate.” Those who love the world, and who put what is perishable before what is eternal, are those who do not know the love of the Father.

But we do not avoid worldliness by secluding ourselves from the world. The key to escaping worldliness is not to avoid the world, but to avoid acting like the world and thinking like the world. To do this we do not escape the world, but allow ourselves to apprehend the allure of the world so it might lose its glow. The world has a natural attraction to all of us who have sinful hearts. Something within us, some dark corner of our hearts, longs to return to the world, to the old man. But with the help of the Holy Spirit, we soon see that the world offers nothing but counterfeit joy and happiness that are opposed to God. To think that we can keep our children from being worldly by sheltering them from the world is false. Sooner or later children will want to see what the world has to offer. It is far better to let them see it when their hearts are tender, their confidence is in their parents, and their abilities are limited. Children who do not experience the world until they are old enough to be able partake in all its so-called pleasures are children who fall away.

I believe it is easier for children to avoid worldliness when they are exposed to the world. This may sound strange, so allow me to explain. I want my children to see what the world has to offer before they are old enough to explore it on their own, without parental guidance. I want my children to see and experience families where God is not at the center. There are aspects to unbelieving families that may appeal, especially when the children are young, but as they grow and mature, I think they will see that what the world offers is so obviously detrimental to both individuals and families. They will learn the value of faithfulness when they see families fractured by infidelity. They will learn the value of mom following her biblical convictions and staying home to be a homemaker when they see families where mom and dad do not arrive home until well after dark leaving the children with no oversight, no guidance. They will see that what mom and dad are teaching them is true.

The fact is that worldliness comes from within. Worldliness is not something that is forced upon people or that is extrinsic to them. Worldliness is intrinsic and arises from a person’s sinful nature. A person who never experiences the wider culture can still be worldly. A child who never darkens the door of a public school may be far more worldly than one who does so every day. A child who is homeschooled or who goes to a Christian school is, in my experience, no more likely to avoid worldliness or to grow up to be a committed follower of Christ than one who goes to public school. Visit a Christian college and see if the homeschooled kids or the kids who went to Christian schools act consistently better than those who attended public schools. Experience shows that you will not find a difference based primarily on the breakdown of how the children were educated. Keeping my children out of the world is not going to keep them from being worldly. And, in fact, by allowing them to see the cost of worldliness, the cost of disobedience to God, they will see worldliness for what it really is. They will see that God’s promises of blessing to those who honor Him are as true as His promises of the curses that come to those who forsake Him.

I believe I can equip my children to love God and to avoid worldliness by placing them in public schools where they can see for themselves the cost of forsaking God.

Miscellanea and Conclusions

I think it is important to note that, in any educational choice, work remains to be done. Homeschoolers have to be deliberate about building bridges to the community and neighborhood. They have to deliberately seek ways of inviting unbelieving children into their homes and finding ways into the homes of unbelieving families. They have to seek ways of building credibility with those who live around them, of building community with them and of finding ways for their children to learn to witness to others. With those of us who choose to send our children to public school, we must be deliberate about understanding what our children are learning, interpreting it for them, and ensuring that they have a Christian worldview that allows them to filter these things themselves. We must ensure that they understand their sin and see that it is only the Holy Spirit that makes them any different from the other children in the school. In either case, academic education is only the starting-point for building a life that honors God and fulfills His commandments and commission. If you are a homeschooler and are about to post a comment disagreeing with me for my decision, I’d like you to first consider how you are seeking to carry out the Great Commission and how you are equipping your children to do so and allowing them opportunity even now to witness to peers.

I would like to make clear that it is possible that in the future my wife and I will need to rethink our position. A time may come when the school system degenerates to a place where we simply cannot allow our children to be there. A time may come when it just makes sense for us to explore other options. Because I do not regard any of the options are intrinsically wrong, they are all open to us if necessity dictates that we follow a different course. We hope to continue to prayerfully reflect on the state of the system and to make wise decisions.

There is one more thing worth considering. While homeschooling is an option currently available to Americans and Canadians and people in some other corners of the world, it has not always been this way and will not always be this way. Even today in many nations parents have no choice but to place their children in schools where the teachers seek to lead them away from Christ. Do these children fall away? Were the children of Christians in the Soviet Union swept away into atheism? This is simply not the case! God’s grace was and is more than able to overcome all manner of unbiblical teaching. While this may not justify a decision, it does show that God is powerful and will not allow His children to fall out of His grasp.

I am not afraid of the world and what it may do to my children. There is nothing the world can offer that is greater or stronger than God’s grace. I am sure that my children, at one time or another, will encounter teachings that run contrary to our convictions. They will learn about evolution and will hear that all religions are the same. I know that this is coming and am already working with them to know how to think about these things and to know how to respond. I am teaching them to respond to such teachings with love and respect for the teacher, but with disdain for teachings that go against Scripture. I am teaching this to them while they are young and while they trust me more than they trust others!

I am praying for this grace to be operative in the lives of my children and trusting that it will be so. I am trusting that God will draw my children to Himself and, in so doing, reorient their desires and affections so they see as He sees and value what He values. And as I do that, I am preparing them to know the culture, to be in but not of it—to reach out to a culture that is so desperately in need of missionaries who carry with them the gospel message of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

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Comments (157) »


1. julie
December 13, 2006
10:59 AM

This is such an excellent post. I was actually in tears reading the paragraph about what schools would be like if all Christian parents removed their children from public schools. It’s a thought that has crossed my mind as well, and though I currently homeschool our five year old, I look forward to the day (soon) when we will also be in Canada and be able to put her in public school and see the amazing fruit the Holy Spirit brings because of it. I grew up going back and forth between public and Christian schools, and finished my high school years in public. I can think of at least 3 of my friends that are believers today because of me and other Christian students continually loving them and sharing the gospel with them. And it was so exciting to be there when some of them were regenerated and I’ll never forget those experiences that have shaped me. Thank you for your faith in God and his grace. I hope it inspires others to truly seek God’s will whatever that may be and be brave enough to obey regardless of what other may think.


2. Juice
December 13, 2006
11:03 AM

So do you wait until your kids are Christians and baptized before you put them in the public school system?


3. Blake Law
December 13, 2006
11:03 AM

Would you your son should be a sot or dunce,
Lascivious, headstrong, or all these at once,
That in good time, the stripling’s finished taste
For loose expense and fashionable waste
Should prove your ruin, and his own at last,
Train him in public with a mob of boys,
Childish in mischief only and in noise,
Else of a mannish growth, and five in ten
In infidelity and lewdness, men.
There shall he learn, ere sixteen winters old,
That authors are most useful, pawned or sold,
That pedantry is all that schools impart,
But taverns teach the knowledge of the heart.

And seems it nothing in a father’s eye
that unimproved those many moments fly?
And is he well content, his son should find
No nourishment to feed his growing mind
But conjugated verbs, and nouns declined?
For such is all the mental food purveyed
by public hackneys in the schooling trade.
Who feed a pupil’s intellect with store
Of syntax truly, but with little more,
Dismiss their cares when they dismiss their flock,
Machines themselves, and governed by a clock.
Perhaps a father blest with any brains
Would deem it no abuse or waste of pains,
To improve this diet at no great expense,
With savoury truth and wholesome common sense,
To lead his son for prospects of delight
To some not steep though philosophic height,
Thence to exhibit to his wondering eyes
Yon circling worlds, their distance, and their size

To show him in an insect of a flower
Such microscopic proofs of skill and power,
As hid from ages past, God now displays
To combat atheists with in modern days.

Canst thou, the tear just trembling on thy lids,
And while the dreadful risk foreseen, forbids,
Free too, and under no constraining force,
Unless the sway of custom warp thy course,
Lay such a stake upon the losing side,
Merely to gratify so blind a guide?
Thou canst not: Nature pulling at thine heart,
Condemns the unfatherly, the imprudent part.
Thou wouldst not, deaf to nature’s tenderest plea,
Turn him adrift upon a rolling sea,
Nor say, go thither, conscious that there lay
A brood of asps, or quicksands in his way;
Then only governed by the self-same rule
Of natural pity, send him not to school
No!—guard him better: Is he not thine own,
Thyself in miniature, they flesh, they bone?
And hopest thou not (‘tis every father’s hope)
That since they strength must with thy years elope,
And thou wilt need some comfort to assuage
Health’s last farewell, as staff of thine old age,
That then, in recompense of all they cares
Thy child shall show respect to they gray hairs.

- William Cowper

Tim, your article shows you are prepared to ‘improve this diet’ of your children’s schooling, and no one who homeschools should look down on your decision. It just makes me very afraid when I think there could be parents sending their kids to public school with the same convictions as your family, but then because of laziness or business, forgetting to shepherd their children through public school like your family—or just not realizing how much extra guidance they need.

I went through public school, my fiancee went through homeschool and a few years of Christian school, and to my shame, every once in a while when we hear some obscene reference or innuendo to some unnatural acts in a movie or on television, she looks at me and I tell her what it’s refering to (I think she’s old enough now) and she says, ‘ew blake! how did you even know that?’ and before I even answer she says, ‘oh yeah… public school’.


4. KB
December 13, 2006
11:14 AM

You’ve nailed it straight on, Tim. We musn’t deny God the power to work in our own lives.


5. theologian
December 13, 2006
11:20 AM

I don’t agree with the child evangelist idea. Are there any references in the NT where children go out and evangelize? Besides, is that really the purpose of school? I mean, what’s wrong with just taking your children out to evangelize apart from school?

School is for teaching children. The Bible tells us what we are to teach our children (Lev 10:11; Deut 4:9; Deut 6:7; Deut 11:19). In public schools they will be taught those things.

I also think the idea of child evangelism (reaching children with the gospel) is a bit misplaced compared to the biblical model. Biblically heads of households were approached with the Gospel, and upon believing their households entered into the church. Children can’t affect their parents in the same way that parents can affect their children, yet much of evangelistic energies are geared towards children instead of their parents.

I’ve started rambling…sorry.


6. Todd H. from Zeeland
December 13, 2006
11:20 AM

Tim,

It seems to me your arguments could be used to justify spending sundays hanging out at the mall or bar or wherever rather than in church.

Imagine, if you will, if every Christian parent pulled their children out of Christian schools? They wouldn’t exist anymore and I believe that would not be a good thing.

I do appreciate you allowing yourself to be open to all options in the future. Many of us forget to do that.

TH


7. Garret
December 13, 2006
11:21 AM

As someone who has experienced both realms - public school, homeschooling and back to public school, I think I may add a little to this discussion.

I would say that our reason for homeschooling was idealistic as you propose - no argument there. It was almost a separatist attitude which, at the time, seemed biblical. This is not to intimate that all homeschoolers are separatist.

We homeschooled our 10 year-old in 3rd and 4th grade. This year, we decided to go back to public school by mere virtue of the fact that it would relieve my wife of a lot of stress. You see, we have 3 kids now and are waiting on a fourth via Chinese adoption (our first adoption). We are fortunate to live in a solid school district.

As the year has progressed and we have learned more about and grown in the gospel, we feel it is actually a better thing. It may be true that our children will be exposed to the ugliness of the world more quickly than if we homeschooled them. But we also realized that our children will learn more quickly their need of Christ. As they are confronted with tough choices and are likely to fall to temptation more frequently, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, they will see their need for a Savior much more vividly than if we keep them sheltered at home. They will have greater opportunity to experience the love and forgiveness of Christ - hopefully they will also experience the love and forgiveness of their sometimes overly tough dad - that’s the idea anyway.

This may sound twisted to some people. But we are convinced that no person can truly understand his or her need of a Savior until that person can truly understand the wickedness and evil bent of his or her own heart. The spoken gospel is simply not enough. You can preach and preach until your blue in the face, but if a child doesn’t experience the consequences of his or her own gravitation toward evil, then they will not begin to truly appreciate their need of a Savior or the love Christ has for them despite their wicked tendancies. “…for he who was forgiven much loved much.”

This does not mean that I want my children to dive into wickedness. It only means that I cannot and should not attempt to shelter them to the point that they grow up and move out and are in for a rude awakening when they see what the real world is all about. Furthermore, they will never learn about grace as it pertains to their own willingness to overlook someone elses sin in favor of forgiveness and learn how to apply the gospel to real world situations.

In short, they need to be IN the world in order to learn how not to be OF the world. Their is a fine, albeit hard to maintain, balance between legalism/pharisaism and license/antinomianism. My prayer is that we never stray too far either way. And with the help of the Holy Spirit, perhaps we will not.

I echo what you say, Tim, with respect to not despising those who do wish to homeschool. I am for liberty on both sides of this issue.


8. Sheena
December 13, 2006
11:28 AM

Thank you for a courageous article. Our son has just started in public school here in London, England. Already he knows that not everyone beleives as we do and that people believe in other false Gods. But his Grandparents are not believers, so he sees it even within his own family.

When we are out he sees homeless people in the street, homosexual men together and drunks, to name a few. It’s hard to avoid, but that’s the harsh reality of our culture. It’s up to us to equip him by being biblical parents, I think that is compatible with sending him to public school.

I should add that my husband, who is now a pastor of a Presbyterian church here in London, was converted in public school through the persistent witness of a schoolfriend over several years.


9. Jeri
December 13, 2006
11:36 AM

Tim, I know you were mostly home-schooled or attended Christian schools…I’m interested in your parents’ perspectives on why they made that choice, and what they see in hindsight. Any chance of getting them to chime in on the discussion?

I appreciate all your thoughts and convictions on this. It’s good to have convictions!


10. Josh
December 13, 2006
11:39 AM

I don’t think Tim is talking about Sunday I think he is talking about Monday through Friday.

I agree with a lot you said Tim. Down here in the states a lot of folks take their kids out of public schools because some of them are just not that good. What are the public schools like in Canada?

Josh
“…the word of God is not bound.”
—2 Timothy 2:9


11. theologian
December 13, 2006
11:43 AM

This was an interesting remark:
“It may be true that our children will be exposed to the ugliness of the world more quickly than if we homeschooled them.”

It got me to thinking in terms of our children being exposed to the ugliness of the world. I think it is a much different thing to have a child exposed to this ugliness under Christian oversight than without any Christian oversight.


12. Dean L. Peterson
December 13, 2006
11:44 AM

We have one child in private school and one in public school. Are reason for being divided…neither could get quality education in their siblings school.

One child has a learning disorder that the private school could not support. The other child is an accellerated learner and the public school could not help him from becoming completely bored.

We pay more to privatize our youngest and I can see a detriment in our oldest son, but I can only Proverbs 22:6’m as the best I’m equipped to do. The reset I live to God through prayer.

If parents decide to home school, private school or public school, what business is it for anyone else. Each parent ultimately must answer to God the Father for their responsibilty of raising their children as they deem appropriate.


13. dkdkd
December 13, 2006
11:44 AM

Hmm… I don’t have time to read the entire article, sorry if I’m not getting the point right. But anyway, someone has told me that I shouldn’t homeschool my kids (I’m 21 female single, it will be a while before I have them)(like any of that is relevant… oh well) because of how Christians shouldn’t be secluded (I agree). You said something about missions… which is all well and good. But I babysit these young girls, and they are sooooooooooo easy to influence (which I take advantage of, hopefully to their wellbeing), and I can’t help but think that it doesn’t matter how involved in my children I am; if they are spending eight hours a day in public school with teachers who despise Christianity… well, they will be inpacted by that.

Basically, when I teach my children, if I do, I will teach them all about what they would be learning in public school, and why I think it is wrong. I won’t seclude them from it, but at the same time, I will try to teach them why it’s wrong, if it is. I want to train them to learn and think for themselves… which I suppose you could do with public school too, but… maybe not. Anyway, the whole mission field thing just seems stupid to me; it’s a battle-field, in a way.

Since when do you stick soldiers out in battle right away so that they can learn about it and fight in it??? Without training? They’ll die. Sure, you send them out. But I think not before they are trained, is a good idea. :)


14. Tim Ellsworth
December 13, 2006
11:59 AM

I appreciate these posts, Tim, as my family is wrestling with some of these same issues. You’ve given me some food for thought.

I did find it interesting that the arguments you made were primarily about missions and worldliness, with little being said about the whole purpose of schools — education. Maybe public schools in Canada are better than they are here, but one of the reasons why we’re not considering public schools is simply because they will not provide as good of an education for our children as private schools will, or as we will if we homeschool.

I spent three years as a teacher in public school systems (in addition to being a product of public schools myself), and am unimpressed with the whole educational model upon which they are based.


15. Tim Challies
December 13, 2006
12:01 PM

“I did find it interesting that the arguments you made were primarily about missions and worldliness, with little being said about the whole purpose of schools — education.”

I deliberately left that topic. Check Dan Edelen’s series for more. But to summarize, I am not convinced that my child will get a better education at home than at school.


16. Tim Ellsworth
December 13, 2006
12:07 PM

Will do. Thanks for the clarification.


17. Kim K
December 13, 2006
12:11 PM

Tim, thanks for a very thoughtful article. Do you mind if I say you sound like a parent of very young children? I admire your convictions, but it is so easy when you are just starting out.

It’s too bad you didn’t give more thought to Christian schooling. We currently have three of our kids in Christian school. Two more are in public schools, because they have special needs that cannot be met in the Christian School. Believe me, my kids can do alot of witnessing in the Christian school. It is a misperception that all the kids there are Christians.

I can’t really place a monetary value on my kids learning everything from a Biblical worldview. Yes, I am still responsible for their education, but it is so much better to have school complement our efforts as work opposed to them.

We just experienced the death of a close family member. Our kids were surrounded by loving kids and teachers, many tears were shed, and prayers were said ( and are still being said) in all the classes. The difference in what my Christian school kids experienced and what the public school kids got, in terms of support, was amazing.

Just thought I’d get me two cents in about Christian schooling.


18. Loren Fleeger
December 13, 2006
12:19 PM

What I want to know is when does the Body of Christ become united? Why does it have to be homeschoolers vs. public schoolers? Why do we have the need to be right? Isn’t that what this is all about? That’s my impression anyway.
We are homeschoolers here and I agree with much of what you wrote. However, I think homeschooling helps keep the family intact and allows us to teach our children the Word of God. Feminism and women going to work was a direct scheme of the enemy and our families have paid a dear price for that!
As for being exposed to worldliness, all I have to do is take my children to church and let them be involved in the youth group and children’s ministry. Yes, we do both! There’s enough there to last a whole week, do I really need to immerse them in that culture 8 hrs. a day, five days a week so they can become strong Christians?
I worked in the public school system for 5 years and wasn’t impressed with what I saw. I would beseech parents to go spend some time there before deciding that’s the best place for their children to spend the majority of their years growing up.
We are an outreach minded family and don’t seclude ourselves, but I’m not going to let the public school system shape my children’s hearts, I’m going to do it. Yes, some aren’t affected by the teaching, but some are. Am I going to risk that my child will be negatively affected? No way.


19. Sarah
December 13, 2006
12:21 PM

I have been following both your posts with interest.

I think Theologian has raised some important points in comment #5. Those are some of the same conclusions my husband and I have reached as well after prayerfully considering the right education route for our family. Our family has been in ministry for a long time and more often notice adult converts bringing their entire family to Christ, than child converts doing the same. That is not to say that we shouldn’t try to reach the little ones - they are the most precious to Him and their hearts are so soft. But I’m not sure that putting my kids in public school is the most effective way to go about childrens’ ministry.

For what it’s worth, my husband is a church planter. We are planting a church right in our extremely suburban and new neighborhood, actually. Right now we are meeting in our home and by God’s grace have, by several different ways, been reaching out to the people who live around us.

There is a huge new elementary school a few blocks from our home. We have been thinking of ways to reach out to the families whose kids go there. There are many ways. Right now, I don’t think that putting our 5 yr olds in school there would accomplish much in terms of missions.

You said you wanted to know how homeschoolers who would comment on your post were personally reaching out to their community with Christ’s love, so I would like to share with you some of the things we do with our (very young children) to instill in them a deep love for the lost.

First of all, we pray for the people in our neighborhood with our children constantly. I think that prayer is one of the most powerful (and perhaps least practiced) ways God can use us to reach the lost. We could spend our entire lives actively on evangelizing and the people we would reach would just be a drop in the bucket. It seems to me that we often forget that prayer is the FIRST step to getting the job done. God can open and close peoples’ hearts. I see evidence that praying for our neighborhood and for God to use our little church to reach our neighbors has really molded my kindergarteners’ hearts.

Second, we want our children to see us witnessing to others. If they were in school for the better part of each day, 5 days a week, I’m not sure when we would find the time to naturally be a light to our neighbors as a couple and as a family. Our children participate in almost everything we do, including befriending our neighbors (who all adore them - even the ones who are adamant about public schooling!) and I have seen God use my homeschooled 5 yr olds to reach more hearts in this neighborhood than my husband and I combined. My kids regularly see and play with some of our public schooled neighbor kids (under supervision).

We are learning to be more and more hospitable every day and often have neighbors just come in our house for some reason at different times of the day. This is VERY unusual in the type of neighborhood that we live in. My husband and I try to have casual get-togethers and just be friendly to the people around us and our children see that first hand. We also make a point of going to every party/event that we are invited to around here. If our kids were in public school I don’t think we would be able to be as social with our neighbors as we are! There would be concern for getting homework done every night, and staying in on school nights, not doing too many activities, etc.

I hope the most important and effective thing we will have done to disciple our children is to show them how much Mom and Dad love God and are trying to live right and to love people who need God, even right here in our own home and neighborhood. I really do not see how homeschooling is a detriment to that. Instead, I see that our kids being with us so much has helped them to better absorb what we are trying to teach them because we have that much more time with them in order to influence them.

I love the flexibility of homeschooling. It allows our family to drop things if need be to minister to friends and neighbors when there is a need without worrying about the logistics of school.

You may probably think that we are not “typical” homeschoolers. You are probably right. I have to say though, that I have been around homeschoolers and homeschooling groups - and being a new homeschooler, (we always thought we would hs but haven’t actually started til this year) have been impressed by the general thoughtfulness of homeschooled kids about the world around them.

I honestly don’t think homeschooling is the right option for every family. But I certainly think it can be the most effective for discipling your kids and molding their hearts and minds for the work God has set for us to do in this world.

God bless you and your family for being thoughtful and doing what you feel is best for your children. I wonder if most Christian parents ever get that far. Thank you for reading my comment! I hope it was all taken in the spirit of discussion.


20. DLE
December 13, 2006
12:25 PM

Tim,

Thanks for the link and the kind words about the Myths of Homeschooling series I posted over at Cerulean Sanctum.

Like I said in my comment yesterday, this is a very contentious issue. It’s also a sad commentary on how we Christians can be so hurtful to each other.

Blessings!


21. connie
December 13, 2006
12:32 PM

Good article.

Our kids started out in public school, then we pulled them out and homeschooled for four years, then we put them back into public school.

What I believe is that one has to follow the Lord for their own individual family on this topic. Some families will be led to homeschool, either for a time or permanently, some will be led to public or private school-but the point is that the “best” is not the SAME for everyone.

I thank God we had the freedom and opportunity to homeschool, and I thank God for the opportunities my children had in public school as well. I am thankful that I was surrounded by supportive people no matter what educational decision we made. I truly believe we followed the Lord when we homeschooled, and I truly believe we followed His leading when we put them back in. That’s all that matters.


22. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
12:38 PM

Tim,
I don’t condemn those who have decided to allow their children to be taught by public schools, but your reasons for NOT homeschooling (as you have titled your series here), automatically puts us homeschoolers on the defensive (granted, I understand that using a negative title like that draws more attention than one that simply says, “Why my children will go to public schools”).

There are many comments by you in this second article that I find offensive, and that quite frankly reveal false assumptions about what you see as benefits of public schooling over and above homeschooling.

I hope to get to some of them soon, but right now it’s lunchtime, and I am more hungry than I am offended.


23. Brian
December 13, 2006
12:41 PM

Tim,

Interesting perspective. I am new to your blog and so I don’t know much about you.

From your 2 recent posts on homeschooling, I have to ask, as others have, WHY are you writing?

You have prefaced the discussion with Romans 14, but still you publicly proclaim your position and ask that no one challenge you.

Are you looking for someone to disagree with your convictions, or are you looking for pats on the back with “good job, Tim”? Or are you looking to influence those who may be struggling with these same convictions themselves?

If you are struggling with your convictions and want some encouragement and exhortation, then why the discussion on Romans 14? If you are sound in your convictions, then again, why not accept some sharpening from fellow disciples of Christ?

I have no intention of challenging you in your convictions, or anyone else’s if it not desired. If it is truth you seek in a public forum, then let the flood gates be opened and allow your fellow Christians to speak. But if you do not desire an open frank discussion centered around God’s Word, then I and many others who have read this should just be quiet and allow you to go on your way. If we do speak, then we must examine WHY we speak. If we speak to hear ourselves talk and make our opinion known, then I would suggest our motives are not pure. But if we speak to equip, to exhort, to sharpen, then let it be from the word of God and not from man.

Again, I am not sure WHY you have written these entries.


24. Tim Challies
December 13, 2006
1:09 PM

Brian - I don’t know that it would be possible for me to post my reasons for not homeschooling without someone getting offended. Those who publish their views as to why we should or must homeschool will no doubt offend people who choose to put their kids in public school.

As for the other Brian, just because an issue is of the Romans 14 variety, doesn’t mean we should discuss it and provide our rationale for our beliefs.


25. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
1:25 PM

My thoughts on your thoughts:

If you are a homeschooling parent and you feel anger or hatred for what I said (and what I am about to say), you are strong. If, on the other hand, you condemn me for my decision, you are weak.

This may be true, but cannot be determined by the proper context of Romans 14, nor can Romans 14 be used to justify your statements concerning weak and strong Christians. According to Paul, there were not both strong AND weak Christians on both sides of the vegetarian or observance of days issues

1. The strong person is the one who has faith that he may eat all things.
2. The weak person is the one who eats vegetables only.

So, the strong and weak are classified in Romans 14 BEFORE any talk of judging or condemning are brought up by Paul. Therefore, according to your paradigm here, and to be consistent with Romans 14, there has to an EITHER/OR with respect to the strong and the weak as it pertains to homeschooling vs. public school…there can’t be BOTH strong and weak people on BOTH sides of the debate.

If we are going to use Scripture, we need to be consistent with it and make sure we keep it in its proper context. That is why I don’t think Romans 14 should be employed to make a point regarding the raising of children. It just doesn’t fit, unless it is forced into a statement such as Tim’s above that is inconsistent with the original context.

There very may be (and most assuredly are) BOTH weak and strong Christians on both sides of this issue…but not in the proper context of Romans 14.


26. Chris
December 13, 2006
1:26 PM

I don’t see where education is mentioned in Romans 14. There is not Biblical precedence at all to say that Paul meant for education to be a matter of freedom of conscience. In fact, just the opposite.


27. Brian
December 13, 2006
1:36 PM

Tim,

Forgive me, I am a bit slow…I don’t understand your response.

WHY are you even posting your reasons for not homeschoolingl? What is it you are trying to acheive? Are you seeking clarity? Are you seeking influence? Or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

Most blogs I have read have a purpose in mind..most are seeking truth, understanding, wisdom and sharpening by fellow believers. They may be confident in their convictions and wish to encourage others through charity. Others are not so sure of their convictions and wish to be exhorted by others.

Your post however, expresses your convictions while at the same time asking that we not discern or judge. And in some way we need to be respectful and claim relative truth for each and every child and family.


28. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
1:40 PM

Brian - I don’t know that it would be possible for me to post my reasons for not homeschooling without someone getting offended. Those who publish their views as to why we should or must homeschool will no doubt offend people who choose to put their kids in public school.

Granted, it may not be able to be done with 100% non-offended reactions, but I think it can be done using more positive reasoning than negative reasoning. When everything is set out from the initial focal point of a negative (Why I do NOT homeschool), then I think things will come out more in a way that offends.

Is it not possible to put forth reasons for choosing public school that do not focus on the negatives of homeschooling? Conversely, it should also be possible to put forth reasons for choosing homeschooling that do not focus on the negatives of public schools.

Granted, pitting the two against each other makes for more interesting dialogue (as evidenced right here on this thread), but I think one’s reasons for doing one or the other should also be able to stand on their own, without tearing down the other, don’t you think?


29. theologian
December 13, 2006
1:56 PM

I agree with what Brian said…
“That is why I don’t think Romans 14 should be employed to make a point regarding the raising of children. “

Romans 14 is regarding physical food, which has no eternal weight. Educating our children in the fear of the Lord does have eternal weight.


30. Daniel
December 13, 2006
2:07 PM

JUICE said: So do you wait until your kids are Christians and baptized before you put them in the public school system?

This was a very good question, I hate to see it left unanswered.


31. Jerry M
December 13, 2006
2:09 PM

I certainly respect people who homeschool and do it well - but some of the stereotypes do fit on occasion. Having been a youth pastor for a few years - I saw kids that were raised in a homeschool setting - and just plain lacked any social skills. Call me worldly - but a guy has got to know how to get along and work with others to survive in the real world and in the workplace. And providing an income for a family is a spiritual issue.

What does an employer look for in an employee: skill and ability to get along with, work with others

I think it was about a year or two ago - there was a big story about a homeschool kid killing his girl friend’s parents, and trying to run off with his girl, etc. Would he have done that if he had not been home schooled? I don’t know - but my guess is that homeschooling really didn’t work in that setting. People need to know their kids - parents need to know their abilities and not make this a legalistic test of spirituality either way. Which has been what Tim has been saying all along. Good post.


32. Robyn Tippins
December 13, 2006
2:13 PM

I can’t get over the number of responses here suggest they know better how to parent your child. While they are not all this way, it is to these that I address this comment. As a former homeschooler, I can’t tell you how obnoxious that holier than thou attitude is and how it paints the entire homeschooling movement.

It DOES matter how you appear to others and if these self-rightous people are so perfect, then we should all ask them to script our lives for us. It’s a shame to see homeschooling painted in a negative light by people who ‘judge others by a law they themselves cannot keep’.

Life is a growth process and Tim has chosen what is right in his mind for his family at this point and time. Pay attention to your own planks.


33. Tim Challies
December 13, 2006
2:17 PM

“JUICE said: So do you wait until your kids are Christians and baptized before you put them in the public school system?

This was a very good question, I hate to see it left unanswered.”

I’m not sure why this is a good question or why it’s a question I’d want to answer. Was it a question I am supposed to answer?


34. Lin
December 13, 2006
2:18 PM

I have not had time to read all the comments so someone may have asked this: How old are your kids?

I ask because this whole outlook can really change in preteen years.

Of course God can work anywhere with anything but I do think we are tasked with protecting and raising our children in the Lord. We would not send them out to negotiate with gangs at thier age. We would not send them out to play on a highway. We protect them. All the while building a strong foundation so they can detect the ‘counterfeit’ when they come up against it.

You wrote: “Were the children of Christians in the Soviet Union swept away into atheism? This is simply not the case!” >>

I would say for the most part, yes it was…at least in Romania. There was absolutely no future for them outside that system. Being a Christian was a secret they had to keep so as not to hurt their family.

My cousin went to Romania as a missionary right after the regime fell. It was still basically communistic but they allowed humanitarian aid from Christian organizations if they did not street preach or start churches.

She saw this situation with children for real as she worked with Christians who suffered horribly under that regime. The true professing Christians (not the old state orthodox church) had a very hard time with their children. It is a hard life that had to be lived in secret. State school is mandatory and years of indoctrination takes it toll. Many children rebelled and turned against their parents.

It is a very sad situation but God can turn it around and is working there now.


35. DeeDee
December 13, 2006
2:27 PM

Here is a survey that I participated in…having graduated from homeschool 23yrs ago. It’s pretty amazing.

http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf

I would like to mention that I was private schooled, fundamental schooled(conservative public schools here in So. Cal), public schooled and homeschooled. I wish I could have been homeschooled all the way. I find it interesting when I meet adults who say they went through public/private school and wouldn’t have changed it.
I would have given up hearing the F-word(along with all the other obscenities) 50 times a day for anything, I would have given up the rude and lude comments from guys for anything, I would have given up having my bottom grabbed by guys flying by my locker for anything.
I would have loved it if my parents could/would have protected me from all of that. I’m amazed that we live in a time where Christian parents can, and yet purposefully choose not to.

My oldest daughter actually went to kindergarten. She is 15 and still remembers it., and is literally brokenhearted when she hears of one of my friends putting their kids in public school. Not from what she has been taught, but from what she experienced herself. She came home from kindergarten taking the Lord’s name in vain….that took us quite a long time to break since she heard it every day,….she came home saying, “D***!” when she got mad at something…..that took another long while to break…..and oh yes, she was trying to help the little girls on the playground share with each other by telling them that that is what Jesus would want them to do, only to be yelled at, “We don’t care what Jesus thinks!!” Trust me, she didin’t go on to tell them the Gospel story. She came home crying…like any 5yr old would, and I felt like I had put her with the wolves…which indeed I had.


Tim—
I have always wanted to ask someone this, and it seems you are open and willing to answer.
How do you take comments like the teachers have made about what is going on in the public school system….knowing that they are in the thick of it and are way more aware about what is going on in the public school system than you/we do…and not take that seriously? I mean these are teachers in the public school system saying they would never put their own kids into it! Do you think they are blowing it out of proportion? Do you think they lack faith? Or do you just think your children will be spiritually mature enough to battle this?

Also, I’ve always wondered…you’ve got major-big lawyers from Homeschool Legal Defense, who are in the courts everyday, who are constantly watching what the NEA(National Education Association) is up to….I mean they REALLY know what is going on and what the government is after with our kids….WAYYYY more than we do. They tell us how dangerous it is, how God-hating it is, how they actually have purpose to, and I quote the NEA, “get the rotting, stinking corpse of Christianity out of our education system”….and yet..Christian parents think its a great place to send their small, usually unregenerate at this point, children.

Lastly, Scripture tells us not to walk with the foolish, how is sending our children to school 8hrs a day, all day, with foolish children of the same age, struggling(most not struggling, but embracing) with the same things, being told that the foolish transexual teacher that is teaching them is in authority over them, being faithful to the Word?

What am I not understanding?


I’m not being sarcastic here….I’m seriously at a loss to understand, and I don’t want to be legalistic about homeschooling, I want to be God honoring, yet I haven’t really had the opportunity to ask, or have these questions answered by someone who is choosing to public school.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this!
~D~


36. yikesmom
December 13, 2006
2:34 PM

Many thanks again, I don’t think that this ever has to be an us versus them but for some reason it usually is. As a homeschooler for almost 11 years now it pains me to see so many homeschoolers refer to the public schools as government schools, as if God has or could ever leave the school system. As if God isn’t always breaking through His creation and constantly working His redemptive work. I hope that I am never threatening to a family who chooses options other than homeschooling.

I’ll say it again, if we rely on anything other than God’s grace to “save” our children it will be as relying on an idol.


37. ReformedMommy
December 13, 2006
2:36 PM

“The world has a natural attraction to all of us who have sinful hearts.”

Tim, this issue of worldliness is so critical, and I think there’s a big connection with this discussion on homeschooling and the previous one on Guilt For Particular Sins.
Jesus admonishes us in Mark 7 -“There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” The issue with considering how deeply we permit ourselves or our children to interact with the world is whether we respond in the flesh or in the Spirit. If my daughter is witness to some conversation or actions that are sexually impure, whether at school, T.V., etc., does her sinful heart cause her to want more, or does she respond in the Spirit, moving away from the temptation and replacing what she has seen or heard with pure thoughts from Scripture? Further, have I taught her sufficiently about the truth of God concerning the depth and breadth of our own depravity and need for Christ that she confidently comes to me and tells me what has happened, how she thought and responded (whether sinful or not) so that we can talk and pray and decide how to respond next time? Regardless of what her educational environment is, having that as a goal is what is critical.

Thanks for your thoughtful words Tim.


38. Jim Vellenga
December 13, 2006
2:40 PM

Jerry M. said, “Having been a youth pastor for a few years - I saw kids that were raised in a homeschool setting - and just plain lacked any social skills.”

On the opposite side, I have seen kids taught in public school who are completely lacking in social skills, while all those I have met (and yes I know this is not a statistically significant number) have been very socially capable, far beyond their years in fact. I think taking that particular criteria for deciding one way or the other on home-schooling is probably one of the less useful ones.

As as pastor I have found that most children will resemble their parents in social skills no matter where they are taught. If the parents are not very social, the children will often struggle in that area as well.

As for your post Tim, thank-you. I cannot say I agree with you on your reasons, but I would prefer people think through why they are doing things rather than to follow the crowd either with public schooling, home-schooling or Christian schooling. Growing up in a Christian Reformed Church setting while going to public school for my elementary education, my mother was constantly pushed to put me into the Christian school. When I was going to high-school, I asked to be put in Christian school because that is where I wanted to go. Looking back, I’m sure if I continued in the public system, I would have not continued to follow the Lord, but would have went the easy road of sin. But, for some children that would not be the case.

As for me, regardless of the “Myths of Christian Education” posts you linked to, my experience with home-schooled children has always been one where I am impressed at how knowledgeable they are and how well they function socially. Again, the sample size would not be statistically significant, and I am sure there are bad home-schoolers out there as well.

Just as an interesting aside, for many years the Ontario provincial government required a licensed teacher from the local school board to check on the educational progress of home-schooled children. A friend of mine who is a retired teacher did this when she was working with the local school board. I was talking about home-schooling with her for a while, and she mentioned it telling me that her experience with home-schoolers at that time (this would be probably 20 years or more back) was all good. In fact she was impressed with how well they were taught.


39. barbara curtis
December 13, 2006
2:43 PM

While I don’t have time to read every word of this discussion I do just want to share my personal perspective as a mother of 12 aged 6-37 who has experienced homeschool, Christian school, Catholic school, special ed, junior college, secular university and Christian college.
The most important thing a parent can do is to remain open at all times to all possibilities. Parenting each particular child is a lot like opening a gift - only with more responsibility attached. God has a plan for each of our children and it’s up to us to discern how that is best accomplished. He also has a plan for each family and my experience has been that there have been seasons in our family’s life - some which involve drawing inward and nurturing, others which involve stepping out into the world.
I homeschooled my children solidly for about eight years, then began to take things year by year and community by community (we moved several times) and child by child. In the four years since we’ve moved from California to Virginia, our school-aged children have all been in public schools - except for one daughter who homeschooled briefly last year. That wasn’t for any negative reason but because it seemed like that was what was God’s plan for her.
After these four years and the role we have carved our for ourselves here, I know that God’s plan for us was very similar to missionaries. I go to a church where we are pretty much the only non-homeschooling family, but that is because we are more like the homeschool families in values than most of the Christians here who have their kids in public school. I’ve found that the judgment by homeschoolers toward public school families is in many cases completely valid - there ARE lots of Christian families who become compromised because they are lazy and keep their heads in the sand. They also tend to delegate spiritual education to the church. They have no media plan for their kids. Parents and kids seem pretty much like the nonChristian parents and kids.
All by way of saying that I believe God does have a plan for certain Christians to have their kids in public schools as missionaries. They are a light not only for nonbelievers but for weaker parents who need role models.
It is so important to remember that God’s ways are not ours and he may ask us to do things that don’t make sense to other people. Then you must remember that in quietness and confidence is our strength. It’s always between us and God.
Tim, I know that you have not chosen an easier, softer path but an exciting one that will draw your family even closer to God as you have opportunities to build meaningful relationships with those he has plans for you to meet. Blessings to you!
Barbara Curtis


40. Alex
December 13, 2006
2:45 PM

Brian is asking Tim, “WHY are you even posting your reasons for not homeschoolingl? What is it you are trying to acheive? Are you seeking clarity? Are you seeking influence? Or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

The best answer is from a shirt on the web, “I think, therefore I blog.”


41. WES
December 13, 2006
2:51 PM

‘If our children are believers, they are filled with the same Holy Spirit as you and I. They are equipped to reach out to the most tender-hearted segment of the population.’

In order to be a missionary doesn’t one need to be a believer, first? If ones 5 year old child is not a believer, how can a parent send them to the mission field/battle zone to evangelize? Maybe I’m missing something, here.

To me, the whole problem with this argument is sending an unprepared unbelieving child to the unbelieving battle zone, too soon. Doesn’t the unbelieving battle zone have a high chance of reinforcing that child’s unbelief. It’s like giving a 5 year old a gun/Bible, parachute and dropping him in the middle of war all the while saying…..’it’s for ‘the cause’, son, you’ll understand…….someday. Now jump!’.

Should a parent have discernment in allowing their unbelieving child to be in an atmosphere which creates a greater temptation to not believe, too soon?


42. Elizabeth
December 13, 2006
2:51 PM

This weak/strong – public/homeshool link is really a stretch and I’ve still not seen a credible association between the two.

Tim: “Some people naturally assumed that I suggested I was strong because I send my children to public school while they are weak because they prefer to homeschool their children. I did no such thing. I merely indicated that one of us is weak and one is strong.”

If people “naturally” assumed you were saying you were “strong” perhaps that says something about how you’re presenting yourself or it could be simply that you did not go out of your way to debunk that assumption in your post.

And, I haven’t read all of your postings but do you regularly aim to admit that you are wrong or weak from the outset? It would be great but strange if you created postings to highlight your “weakness” but I think this may be unlikely- which again may cause others to assume from the tone of your 1st postings that you were saying you were “strong”.

Tim: “Though it seems strange, the easiest way to gauge whether you are weak or strong is by your sinful reaction. In either case, I’d worry less about whether you are weak or strong and more about asking God for forgiveness because of your sinfulness. I’ll do the same.”

The last time I checked having a different opinion doesn’t mean one has sinned.

I think it would also help to acknowledge that your feelings about this topic are really from a middle to upper-middle class suburban centric perspective which is not the luxury some Christians live in.


43. Lance Roberts
December 13, 2006
2:53 PM

So what you just implied is that is someone rebukes your for your unbiblical stance, then they are weak, and the strong shouldn’t rebuke anybody. Protecting your children isn’t a Romans 14 issue, it’s Biblical precept.

You’re PRESUMING that God and the Holy Spirit will protect your children from all spiritual harm (not to mention physical (last year an 8-year old girl was molested at school by the boys)), when the Bible states you are to protect your children. Kinda like leaving all your money on the front lawn, and asking God to protect it. Sure he can, but he gave you the responsibilities of stewardship.


44. deanna
December 13, 2006
2:55 PM

Thanks for this article. It echos our feelings as well, in every arena. After yesterday, I just had to return for the conclusion!

In response to questions about children being evangelists, wasn’t it Christ, Himself, who said, “Let the little children come to me!” In our house, there is no greater evangelist than our first daughter. While she’s not traveled to Brazil, Africa or the Dominican Republic with her father, she has never shied away from sharing Jesus with others. When she was a young 4 years old, I finally allowed her to ride the carousel without me at our local shopping mall. She had chosen to ride in the spinner and another little boy joined her. When she was finished, she hopped off with the biggest smile on her face. I asked her how her ride was, and her reply was this, “It was great! I asked that little boy on the spinner with me if he knew who Jesus was, and he said he didn’t know Him, so I told him ALL about Him!” I’m hoping my look of shock and horror didn’t dissuade her from following her heart on these matters in the future!

Never underestimate the impact a Christ-filled child can have on the world, or on you for that matter!


45. Tim Challies
December 13, 2006
2:56 PM

“I think, therefore I blog.”

Pretty well. I have been thinking about this and then decided it would be interesting to blog about it. I wasn’t able to find much like this on the web (There are approximately 1 billion sites answering “Why do you homeschool?” but none answering “Why do you choose not to homeschool?”).


46. Scott McClare
December 13, 2006
3:01 PM

Theologian said:

Romans 14 is regarding physical food, which has no eternal weight.

Strictly speaking, Rom. 14 is about “disputable matters” or “opinions” (v. 1), or “anything that causes your brother to stumble” (v. 21), which Paul illustrates by the example of physical food (as well as holidays, so even his examples are not strictly about food).

Going over Tim’s two posts and the ensuing comments, it certainly looks to me like education is a stumblingblock for many on either side of the equation.


47. Daryl Cobranchi
December 13, 2006
3:08 PM

As a secular homeschooler (Yes, Virginia, we do exist) I find the conversation here fascinating. Lots of assumptions, of course. Like that all homeschoolers are Christians. That being said, I found this quote to be a bit over-the-top:

I quote the NEA, “get the rotting, stinking corpse of Christianity out of our education system”.

Now, as a long-time edu-blogger, I’ll put my NEA-bashing bona fides up against anyone’s. But this quote doesn’t sound legit and Google hasn’t ever seen of it. Dee Dee— can you provide have a primary source?


48. Andrea G.
December 13, 2006
3:13 PM

I see all the reasons listed here as why NOT to homeschool - Worldliness, Missions, Great Commission, etc. as probably my biggest reasons as to why I do homeschool.

The purpose of public school is not socialization, but education. Opportunities for “quality” socialization are limited. Here in Texas, kids probably have an almost totally unsupervised 30 minute bus ride (Conscientious Christian parents might drive their kids to school, but I’ll say they ride the bus here just for the sake of not having it viewed as being “seperatist”). The school bus is probably one of the worst environments for unsupervised mixed ages to attack the innocent. At our local elementary schools, children have 20 minutes for lunch - barely enough time to eat, let alone have time for socialization. That is from the time they walk in the door until the time they walk out. Then there’s recess - a sore subject with me since the bullying my son received in First Grade Public School is one of the reasons we pulled him out.

The better quality socialization of PS is in the extracurricular activities - and since more and more public schools are cutting back on these extracurricular activities, the “good ones” are independant of the school system - YMCA, community sporting events, church sports teams, etc.

As a homeschooler, I want to expose my children to other beliefs, religions and limited worldliness - but not at the expense of their physical safety. Unfortunately, the PS cannot give me their guarantee that they can vouge for their safety - even in First Grade recess. I can take my First Grader to a sporting event, participate in a group event where I am ultimately responsible for their safety and to encourage their interaction at these MULTI-CULTURAL events. I am responsible and according to the laws here, once my child goes into the PS, the schools have more authority over my child than I do while they are in the building.

Missions - again, there are more opportunities for Missions in homeschooling than there are in PS. While my children are young, my opportunities are limited - but they have more opportunity to actually serve others - help a friend in need, help organize a charity event - on a daily/weekly basis than in the severely limited opportunties in PS or afterschool than in PS.

The Great Commission - by living our lives in service to God, being the hands and feet of Jesus, we reveal to others the Grace of God - Grace in the face of Worldliness. Grace in the opportunites of Community missions are what reveal the Holy Spirit in Us to others. Quality relationships and friendships provide opportunities for non-believing friends and close aquaintances to see in US the hope they desire for themselves and that helps lead them to a desire for God.

I do not see how this would be truly possible in an enclosed PS environment - specifically in my suburban area of Houston, Texas.

As far as education goes - one does not have to look far to know that homeschoolers are outsmarting PS counterparts. They just are. They’re is no arguement there, statistically.

I come from a family of PS teachers who have all, one by one, come to see the fruit in my children when compared to the children they see in PS.

I’m a homeschooler, Not a “Homer” (quite a derogatory term). Parents in both PS and HS environments over-shelter/smother their children. That type of fundamentalism is not specific to one type of education system.

God Bless!


49. Brian
December 13, 2006
3:13 PM

“I think, therefore I blog.”

This is hardly a biblical reason for blogging,

Prov 17:27,28 - He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit. Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

But since you seem to welcome exhortation, hopefully you are desiring biblical insight into your claims “why not to homeschool”. [more on that later]


50. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
3:20 PM

Hey Brian…could you do me a favor and use the initial of your last name, or even your whole last name along with your first when you post comments? It’s not only confusing others, but it’s confusing me! ;)


51. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
3:24 PM

(There are approximately 1 billion sites answering “Why do you homeschool?” but none answering “Why do you choose not to homeschool?”).

This may be true…I haven’t checked enough to know for sure. But, couldn’t you have done a post titled, “Why I choose to Public School”?

In the end, though, it is your blog and you may do with it what you wish…not that you didn’t know that already. You did know that, didn’t you?


52. Cathy
December 13, 2006
3:26 PM

Tim, You’re talking theory and not practicality. You’re also imposing the responsibilities and callings of adult Christians on impressionable children who, as you yourself have pointed out, may not yet have their own regeneration reality. I’ll leave the scriptural principles for others to discuss, but let me briefly review the daily reality of public schools. I know because I work there.

The first obvious problem is the incredibly strong peer influence. It’s stronger than ever before because of the ubiquity of teen culture and because the lines of decency and moral restraint have been forever crossed. Pandora’s box is wide open, and no behavior is off limits. Further, the nature of sins that youth can fall into is dangerous because of the long-term consequences. Alleged sins of spearatists’ pharasaism don’t have the life-shattering effects as do the sins of sexual perverion, substance abuse, etc. Children are forming beliefs about core issues such as gender identity that will influence them for a lifetime.

The second obvious problem is the pervasiveness of falsehood that permeates all the curriculum. There’s very little room given for discussion or dissent in the classroom. There’s no possible way that Christian parents can effectively deconstruct all the harmful thinking that their children are forced to imbibe.

But the greatest problem isn’t peer influence or curriculum falsehoods. It’s the power of godless adult role models. I work with a steady and rapidly growing stream of professional educators—teachers, social workers, school psychologists, and school counselors—who have given themselves over to very sinful lifestyles. These are otherwise caring, dedicated professionals who have an aggressive personal agenda to validate their lifestyles in the eyes of the next generation and specifically in the hearts and minds of your children. Their influence on impressionable, young minds cannot be underestimated! Combine their powerfully strong influence with the amount of time they are given with your children, and you have an obvious recipe for moral indoctrination of the worst kind. Children are not normatively called by God to be “little Daniels” who stand for righteousness in the face of overwhelming peer and adult pressure.

I work with a steady and rapidly growing stream of Christian parents who’ve placed their children in public schools and have found their “Christian” children are behaviorally way out of control in spite of church and parental influence. These parents are at their wits’ ends. You’ll probably never hear from these parents because they’re embarrassed, confused, scared, and disillusioned over what has gone horribly wrong in their children’s lives. I can’t stress how common this scenario is!

Surely, you would never gamble with your paycheck or with your retirement savings. Why would you gamble concerning the hearts and minds of your children? Can God sovereignly save children who go to public school? Of course! Can God keep those children spiritually safe? Of course! But isn’t it the calling of Christian parents to do their very BEST to promote and protect their children’s salvation and subsequent growth in Christ? Tim, you said, “A time may come when the school system degenerates to a place where we simply cannot allow our children to be there.” As a veteran public school educator and as a concerned Bible-believing Christian, I’m telling you that that time has come !


53. theologian
December 13, 2006
3:26 PM

Jerry M. said, “Having been a youth pastor for a few years - I saw kids that were raised in a homeschool setting - and just plain lacked any social skills.”

The only kids in my Youth Group that have social problems are those from the public school. Those who are home schooled and private schooled have no issues at all socially.

I’ve also heard studies that have shown home schooled kids do better socially than public school kids.

As far as violence and shootings go, i bet you would find more of it in public schools than in home schools.


54. joey
December 13, 2006
3:27 PM

As one who was home schooled until college, I would have to say that I am a bit confused as to why Tim is receiving grief for the title of his post. Tim has reasons why he doesn’t home school. He wanted to write a post regarding that topic. So he did. Why the drama?

As for his actual stated reasons, they seem to me to be good reasons not to home school. Just not good enough :)

My parents began home schooling my oldest brother in ‘82 or ‘83, when he was 6. It was not a super popular thing to do back then. Their reasons for doing so were many and, they felt, both biblically based and educationally beneficial. They knew that they could best obey scripture and provide the best education for their children by home schooling. (All the stereotypes about home schoolers are, by the way, exactly the same as all stereotypes in general. There is a reason they exist, but they are unhelpful and exaggerated. I know and am good friends with families of 10 and 11 children who look at times like they walked out of a Little House on the Prairie cover. They are the vast minority. And their social skills are far beyond kids of the same age who are in public school. But I digress.)

Many of the issues involved in this topic are debatable, subjective, and can vary from family to family. There is one issue that is not like that, and it is the key issue here. The issue is whether or not parents are involved with their children…leading them, nurturing them, protecting them, doing the things God has called parents to do. This can be done, as Tim has implied, in the context of most any form of education. This is why statistics aren’t very helpful in cases like this. Its often pointed out that home schoolers do much better on standardized testing than public schoolers. Of course they do, because the majority of public schoolers are receiving little or no support from home. If the comparison was between home schoolers and public schoolers with involved and supportive parents, the gap would be greatly diminished. So, while it is good to discuss the pros and cons of this very important decision, lets not forget what is essential and what is secondary. You can disagree that Tim’s reasons are sufficient to choose public school over home school, and I would agree with you, but lets remember that Tim apparently has what really matters right.


55. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
3:51 PM

As far as violence and shootings go, i bet you would find more of it in public schools than in home schools.

You think? Great Comment, theologian.


56. DeeDee
December 13, 2006
3:53 PM

Darryl-
Forgive me, I was incorrect, it was not a statement from the NEA, but from John Dewey, who was very influential in establishing, and often called the “grandfather” of the NEA.

Here is a link to a few articles regarding this.

http://www.americanprotest.net/columns/07282006.php

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/weaver/040308

Thanks for calling me on that, I need to be precise and correct when I make statements.


57. Elizabeth
December 13, 2006
3:54 PM

Hi Joey,

You wrote, “He wanted to write a post regarding that topic. So he did. Why the drama?”

I think it may be the argumentative and moralizing way the discussion on school choice was framed.


58. Deb Freeman
December 13, 2006
3:58 PM

“We have credibility as neighbors and as members of this community by having our children attend the same schools as the other children.” We have “credibility” with our neighbors because we are good neighbors, demonstrating the love of Christ, not because of how we choose to school our children. We help our neighbors shovel their walks, communicate with utility people when language is a barrier, rake leaves, move boxes, etc. My son got a job mowing lawns, simply because we volunteered to help an elderly lady struggling with a mower in 90 degree heat. He also got a job at a dairy farm at 13 because he is a hard worker and is competent for his age. My children know everyone in our neighborhood and we live in the country, not in a subdivision and we have only lived in this community just over 2 years. Homeschooling enables us to be more active in other’s lives because we are not conforming to the public school schedule. We can shovel our elderly friends’ driveway when they need to get out instead of after the 3:00 bell rings. When my husband was in Seminary, we were able to completely work around his schedule so that when he had a very rare afternoon off, we could spend that time together! Homeschooling allows us greater opportunity to serve as we are here and able to notice the needs of those around us in a timely manner. Homeschooling is not a means of salvation, not a means of sheltering, not a means of extra grace, it is just a way of schooling. I know that I at times have definitely displayed pride about homeschooling, but God in His grace is working on that just like He is any semblance of pride in any area of my life. All pride is sin, regardless of the source, even if it is my conviction that is at the root of it. Something about 10 years of daily seeing your own faults reflected back at you has a tendency to take off some of the arrogance of a new homeschooler. I pray that God is daily making me more humble and gracious and homeschooling could be His way of doing that in my life. It is safe to say that not everyone needs as much work as me!

On another note, here is an interesting read and free online: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

John Taylor Gatto is NOT a homeschooling parent, nor even a Believer. His thoughts and ideas are mainly in the academic realm, but very thought provoking. He was a former New York State Teacher of the Year and a reliable source on education issues. He has also written a book called, Dumbing Us Down in which he chronicles his experiences as a teacher.

I enjoy your blog and it is one of only three that I read daily, Al Mohler and Girltalk are the other two. I can definitely agree to disagree on this one, but we are in our tenth year of homeschooling and for our family, the blessings of homeschooling are too many to count. I cherish these years that I get to spend with my children and would not give that up to anyone else, nor would I trade the sanctifying that God is doing in my life through homeschooling!


59. joey
December 13, 2006
4:13 PM

Hi Elizabeth,

Fair enough, we simply disagree on that. I didn’t find his tone argumentative. I thought the title was a bit defensive (why the need to justify not home schooling?) but I liked it because I like titles that don’t mince words.

Certainly I disagree with his conclusions, but the way the discussion was framed I would call “straightforward” or “unapologetic” not moralizing or argumentative. Perhaps I am wrong, I have been known to be mistaken. From time to time.


60. Aaron Cox
December 13, 2006
4:20 PM

Mr Challies,
Thank you for allowing us a peek into the way your family has made it’s decision about schooling. And I’m even more grateful that you are willing to become a bit of a lightening rod to stimulate conversation on the topic.
I was home schooled up until 10th grade, after which I spent a year in public high-school, and then was blessed with the chance to attend a magnet school for my last two years of high school(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Environmental_Studies).

Based on my own experiences, I don’t think your off base with either your assertions about the theology/ideology behind the decision to homeschool, or the mission-mindset that led to your decision.(if we were to rely on the head of the household accepting Christ before the family was let in the church, half of my brother’s in Christ would have never heard the Gospel)

I’m still unsure how my wife and I will approach the decision for our (future)kids, but I hope we put the thought and prayer into it that you have!


61. Elizabeth
December 13, 2006
4:22 PM

An excellent article and much appreciated article, Tim.

If I may, I’d like to add that Moms in Touch International (groups of moms meeting weekly to pray for their children and their children’s schools) http://momsintouch.org/ is a great resource for those who have their kids in public schools.

Elizabeth


62. Elizabeth
December 13, 2006
4:29 PM

Hi Joey,

Thanks for your response- we disagree and I think that’s fine. I read in your response a willingness to admit you may be wrong and an acceptance of others opinions. However, writing defitinitive statements like:

“This is an area of weaker and stronger Christians.” – (when there is clearly no proof of this statement) and “Homeschooling parents are easily offended (See? I offended you just by saying that!).”

are in my opinion antagonizing.

Knowing this is a highly charged topic for many people it would have been wiser and kinder, in my opinion, to tread lightly and humbly, as scripture calls us to do- I just don’t see any of that in the postings.


63. Cara
December 13, 2006
4:30 PM

Tim,

I just wanted to say that I thought Part 2 of this article, in particular, was very winsomely written. Honestly, my own convictions on this topic are not yet firm. But your post made me recall that God saved my own husband at age 12 or so after a young child (probably 7-9 yrs) pointedly and courageously witnessed to him on a long bus trip. My mother, also, was saved while attending public high school through the witness of her friends there. And several years afterward, in part through her example and influnce, my grandparents were saved. Glory be to God for preparing praise for Himself from the mouths of infants and babes. May He continue to use parents—of homeschool, Christians school and public school persuasions alike—to raise up more young missionaries.

Thanks for your thoughts,

cara


64. Elizabeth L
December 13, 2006
4:31 PM

Just to clarify the Elizabeth in posting 61 is not the same person posting in 62


65. Sarah
December 13, 2006
4:31 PM

Deb Freeman, I love your comment!

You said a lot of what I was trying to say, only much better. :)


66. Tim Challies
December 13, 2006
4:50 PM

To be honest with you reading these comments makes me so MAD! I’m amazed at the lack of grace and humility shown by the people posting here, on both sides of the argument! (of course there are exceptions)

I have written comments four times and erased them all instead of posting them as it would not be wise to post the comments at all. Tim is the voice of reason in our house, and wisely told me to leave it alone.

so I will.

Aileen.


67. Daryl Cobranchi
December 13, 2006
5:13 PM

Dee Dee—

Since you were so gracious I hope you won’t mind me pointing out one more error. According to your first link it was John Dunphy, not John Dewey.

John Dunphy wrote, “The battle for humankinds future must be waged and won in the public school classroom…between the rotting corpse of Christianity…and the new faith of humanism. Humanism will emerge triumphant.”


68. Elizabeth L
December 13, 2006
5:14 PM

I shudder to think about what a boy or girl, man or woman in Sub-Saharan Africa, who can only dream of having an education, would think if they read this post and all of the comments. I think they would find any mode of education a blessing and shocked by how focused we are on ourselves and our opinions.

Thankfully, the majority of the people replying to this post realize that there is no one size fits all for every child. God did not make everyone doctors or lawyers etc. because He has different plans for each of us. After prayerfully considering the right choice for your child/children and your family it shouldn’t matter if Tim or anyone else calls you “defensive” or “weak” or “strong”. Move forward in your choice knowing you answer to God and not to man for your decisions.

And Aileen, your sentiments are noble and understandable since you are Tim’s wife but please be fair, many people feel that Tim also showed a “lack of grace and humility” from the outset.


69. Brian G
December 13, 2006
5:14 PM

“I’m amazed at the lack of grace and humility shown by the people posting here, on both sides of the argument! (of course there are exceptions)”

WOW…I thought people were tap dancing around the issue fairly effectively and not attacking Tim or anyone else. There has been a lot of feelings and opinions expressed but very little exhortation based on biblical truth.

Based on your comment, it doesn’t seem like you want to hear any differing considerations for your decision to send your public school. If this is the case, then I go back to my original question: Why in the world did Tim stick he neck out here? Is Tim sound in his convictions and trying to influence others? Or is he truly trying to sharpen his convictions by entertaining exhortation and discernment?


70. COD
December 13, 2006
5:17 PM

I’m not sure I’d characterize Gatto as a non-believer. Chapter 14 of Underground covers his view of the damage wrought in the school systems when business interests forced the spirituality out of public schools.
Summary here, if you are interested.

Of course, protestant churches were some of the major supporters of public schools in the early days. Ironic, eh?

Any government powerful enough to impose your wishes is powerful enough to impose something entirely different at a later date.


71. Sarah
December 13, 2006
5:29 PM

Brian G,

Me too! I am used to treading soooo lightly on my own blog (and in my own life), because I’m super sensitive to undue criticism and people with a lack of grace and humility, and honestly, in reading all these comments, I kept thinking how polite most people were being except maybe for 1 or 2.


72. Cindy
December 13, 2006
5:41 PM

Tim,

I am wondering at what point you would find the exposures of public schools too much?

I am genuinely wondering if you understand what you are saying in light of our current culture?

I don’t think homeschooling is the perfect solution but for many parents it is the only solution.

I hope you don’t base your decisions for your family on your fear of stereotypical homeschooling.

And yes we do participate heavily in our own community and believe in the Great Commission.


73. Tim Challies
December 13, 2006
5:44 PM

I actually think the comments have been fairly measured. But I think it’s hard for my wife to read comments that aren’t quite so measured (harder for her than for me, I suspect). She also sees the emails I receive…


74. Dan Evans
December 13, 2006
5:49 PM

Tim,
Thanks for your post and willingness to publicly express Aileen’s and your thoughts about the decision making process you went through to send your children to the public school.

I think Romans 14 is a very key scriptural passage that should cause everyone of us to think carefully about what is in our heart that causes us to respond in the way we do to anyone who does not think like we do. The relevance of this passage has been obvious as I have read the responses.

I have been disappointed with the number of “pragmatic” responses that have been provided, because this needs to be a scriptural decision. I have appreciated those who have been grappling with scripture to establish their position.

The challenge by this blog posting is to do just that. We as parents need to make decisions based on our best understanding of God’s Word through diligent prayer and Bible study. Then we prayerfully and consistently apply those principles to the rearing of our children.

When we come to a position, based on Scripture then we need to see how they would stand up to the test of real life. For God has given to us all we need for life and godliness (II Peter 1:3). If the position fails in certain areas then we know that we need to rethink our position and go back to God’s Word.

The challenge for those who think that public school is the only proper way to educate must consider all the possible scenarios where the public education may actually be physically dangerous to the children and parents choose to protect them by homeschooling. To those who think that homeschooling or christian education is a biblical mandate for all Christians must consider their role in offering to home school children whose father doesn’t have a high school education and has to work two minimum wage jobs just to put food on the table and where the mother may be functionally illiterate? What about single moms who cannot afford private education and need to work. If it is a mandate scripturally then it is also our biblical responsibility to provide for those who cannot do this for themselves.

These are just some surface questions, but we need to be sure that we have asked the litmus questions of our positions to make sure that they truly are biblical.

Grace and Peace,
Dan


75. Daniel
December 13, 2006
5:49 PM

Daniel said: “JUICE said: So do you wait until your kids are Christians and baptized before you put them in the public school system?

This was a very good question, I hate to see it left unanswered.”

To which Tim replied:
I’m not sure why this is a good question or why it’s a question I’d want to answer. Was it a question I am supposed to answer?

I remember writing a very beautiful and gracious response to a very harsh criticism of our church leadership team. When I was done it we all felt it was perfectly poetic - it was the very picture of humility, grace, and gentle correction. It claimed all the right things, and did so in a way that no sober person reading it could speak twice about the issue.

We were in the process of finalizing it when the chairman spoke up, God bless Him. He said, “this is truly lovely, but is it real?”

We, on the leadership team were struck by that, because it became obvious as we prayed it out, that we had in fact drafted a very nice reply - but while to position we espoused was right, as we examined ourselves we found that we had said all the right things because they were right, and not necessarily because we thought or felt them personally. It was a defining moment in our leadership - we determined not to go beyond what we were willing to live, and not to settle for less than God demands.

There are some questions, such as that one - that I regard as being of the “rubber meets the road” variety because they make us stop and think about whether our mouths and our feet are on the same page - that is, are we merely walking the talk, or simply talking the walk.

I thought Juice’s question was one of these variety, because anyone who would still send their children to public school even if their children were unsaved, cannot (credibly) list the mission field as a reason - likewise, if our children have made a profession of faith that we (in practice) regard as so tenuous we are witholding baptism from them until we ourselves are certain of their profession, upon what grounds do we impose this ministry upon them?

I am not asking you to answer me Tim, nor to answer juice, and I apologize if I come across as anything other than thoughtful. I am just a reader following up on what you have said, and testing it to see if it fluff or not.


76. bethany
December 13, 2006
5:50 PM

Tim (and Aileen),
I’m thankful for Tim’s sharing and willingness to explain and express reasons for not homeschooling. It allows some to re-examine or solidify already existing convictions, or for those of us without convictions on this- food for thought.

Thank you for loving the Lord and seeking to glorify Him. sDg!


77. Dallas Pymm
December 13, 2006
5:54 PM

From someone who does not have kids I applaud everyone who has stated their view point without being offense. I think I can say from an unbiased position that Tim is included in those who did not resort to offensive tactics.

It did not seem to me that Tim was attacking any point of view, he seemed to be merely giving his defense for his own point of view which is not home schooling is better suited for his family at this time, or it can be said his point of view is that public school is better suited for his family at this time. I don’t think we should get caught up in his choosing to title the post as Why I don’t Home school. If you feel attacked I would suggest you reread the posts and pray through it with a calm spirit.

That being said I think this is a great problem to have. To home school or to send to public or private school? What a spoiled nation we are to have such a diverse set of options that can be pursued by anyone who chooses to. Praise God.


78. Jimmie W. Kersh
December 13, 2006
5:59 PM

Tim,

Politeness and civility are dying concepts. I have not found many postings to be abruptly ostentatious, but some may be close.

I have been reading your blog for almost a year now and have you linked on mine as an RSS (I think it is called). I have not seen this kind of traffic on an article in many moons. I trust you as a brother in the faith. You have touched a raw nerve for many people. You are talking about the most precious thing God grants us besides our salvation and our spouse.

It is not appropriate for any personal attacks and those are unwarranted and not Christ-like. Do not be personally offended, I think you may have just touched off something that may inspire some worthwhile research for a new book. Always be on the lookout for a new book topic. I know that it has certainly inspired me to put together over 25 pages already concerning the topic which could very well become a book.

In my 42 years on this dirtball, I have come to truly honor those with the gift of a great mind. Tim, you have a special gift from God in that you have intellect and a forum from which to use it. Have righteous indignation, but mostly, be thankful God is using you in the kingdom.


79. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 13, 2006
6:04 PM

I think Romans 14 is a very key scriptural passage that should cause everyone of us to think carefully about what is in our heart that causes us to respond in the way we do to anyone who does not think like we do.

I am still having trouble seeing how this is a Romans 14, audiaphora issue. As I said before, Tim drew a scenario where there were both strong and weak Christians on both sides of the debate, based upon Romans 14 and based upon how one reacts to what Tim has said in his posts. But Paul in Romans 14 clearly shows that one side is strong and the other side is weak…with respect to the issues he covers in Romans.

I am not sure we can take what Paul says there - in its proper context - and apply it to the issue of homeschooling vs. public school. It seems we have to do damage to the originally intended meaning of what Paul wrote in order to make it fit into this debate of raising our children.

Thoughts?


80. Afrikaner
December 13, 2006
6:09 PM

Dear Aileen

Unfortunately what you have experienced is pretty typical when conversations are not really seasoned with grace. Christians of all sorts of persuasions can and do become very heated about the discussion of schooling for their children. As I said before - the question of schooling can even tear churches apart. I pray that God would give His grace to rabid pro and anti HS or pro and anti public school (or as in Australia - good private non christian schools) parents.

Grace upon grace.


81. Elissa
December 13, 2006
6:09 PM

Perhaps I am oversimplifying this, but it seems to me based off of my experience and observations that the reason to home school, public school, private school, etc. any child should be based on what is best for that child and that family at that particular time. If public school is working well for one’s children and God happens to use that situation to spread the gospel, praise be to God. But if for some reason, the situation changes and public school is no longer best for a child, then the needs of that child would supercede any mission motivations for going to public school. So missions as a motivation seems like it must assume that a particular situation is working for a child.


82. SolShine7
December 13, 2006
6:15 PM

Well said, Challies.


83. Judd Rumley
December 13, 2006
6:19 PM

Tim,
Thank you for presenting this side of the schooling issue. My wife and I have a two year old and an 8 month old so your honest sound reasons for your convictions will help us think through the issue. So to those who are concerned that you should not be posting something like this, we want to let them and you know that your hard work is not overlooked and very worthwhile. You are doing a great work, don’t come down (Neh 6:3).

God Bless,
Judd


84. Elizabeth L
December 13, 2006
6:26 PM

Jimmie writes: “Tim, you have a special gift from God in that you have intellect and a forum from which to use it.”

Amen, but let’s remember that showing loving kindness towards others by careful choice of our words, tone and actions are more important than intellect.


85. 3rdgradeteacher
December 13, 2006
6:31 PM

I’m not exactly sure what to say except I really appreciate this series of posts. My parents prayed and evaluated each year about where/ how to educate my older brothers and me. I am now a product of public elementary, middle, and high school as well as public university and graduate school. I think my parents did a WONDERFUL job of equipping us for what we might encounter in school. And, from talking to private school friends, children will make foolish decisions regardless of their schooling establishment. Even though I went to public school, I was always one of the more sensitive and sheltered students—something I wouldn’t give up for anything. My parents were diligent about guarding our hearts both in and out of school.

Now, as a public school teacher, it is quite disheartening to hear people bash public schools seemingly left and right. I pour everything I have into teaching my 21 third graders. Much of a school’s program reflects the school board and school administrators. I am blessed to work for very supportive administrators who are determined to provide the best education to each child at our school. People who make blanket statements about public school teachers promoting an anti-Christian and totally worldly mindset neglect the perseverance of their brothers and sisters whom God has led to work in the public school system. My “dream” job during undergrad was teaching in a private Christian school. After seeking God’s will and following His leading, I am at a low-income public school (with an outstanding educational program). I pray fervently that I may plant seeds in the young hearts of my students who do not know Him and nurture the hearts of those who do.

Thank you for sharing how God is leading you right now regarding the education of your children. I appreciate it!


86. nathan
December 13, 2006
6:35 PM

Good topic. An elder in our church (Covenant Presbyterian - Wilmington, OH), Brad Heath, wrote a wonderful book, “Millstones & Stumbling Blocks: Understanding Education in Post-Christian America.” I woud suggest any parents who are thinking and praying about how to educate their children to read this book.

You can buy it here:
Brad Heath, “Millstones and Stumbling Blocks”

Also, you can listen to a great interview with Brad on this subject here:


Brad Heath Interview


87. Elizabeth L
December 13, 2006
6:41 PM

3rd grade teacher, I don’t know if you have read all of the comments but many of the people who have made comments about the poor state of the public schools actually work in them just like you. I also teach in an after school program in a public inner-city school in the Bronx and I have heard with my own ears violent threats made against student and cursing by the faculty!

This is not a blanket statement because clearly you work in one of the good public schools but I think many of us have seen with our own eyes that (and there may be evidence out there to support our beliefs) the vast majority of, at least in my opinion, inner city schools have major problems we would not want to exposed our children to.


88. Mike Perrigoue
December 13, 2006
6:52 PM

Tim, if you want to evangelize your local school kids then may I suggest you become a teacher. This would be way more productive than having your kids do it. That way you can have your wife homeschool (with you helping out in the evenings of course). And I wouldn’t worry about the lack of sin your kids will be exposed to. They will see enough sin by watching you, your wife, their siblings and of course themselves. That’s the great thing about having a sinful nature. We’ve got built in learning opportunities. : )


89. AR
December 13, 2006
6:53 PM

Tim, you wrote, “Our children build bridges to the neighborhood. In sending our children to public school, we are building these bridges with our neighbors as our children are building friendships with their children. We are building friendships on the basis of our kids’ friendships.”

I agree that children can definitely be bridge builders between us and our neighbors. However, I don’t believe kids need to go to public school with neighborhood kids to make this happen. It’s kind of like your argument that as Christians we should celebrate Halloween in order to “prove” we love our neighbors. There are other ways to “prove” we love our neighbors than simply opening our door and handing out candy one night out of the year.

There are other ways for our kids to befriend neighbor kids. In our neighborhood kids are outside playing ALL the time. All we have to do is let our girls go outside and play with them and a bridge is built. No 8 hours of government indoctrination needed.

Plus, within a neighbor kids tend to be in different age groups and therefore different classes at school. So when are all these friendships being built? On the bus, I suppose? As someone who grew up first going to public school and then homeschooling, I remember riding the bus. It was a time when neighborhood kids either teased, ridiculed and picked on one another. It wasn’t a time of friendship building.


90. Dan Evans
December 13, 2006
6:57 PM

Brian T.,

How I see Romans 14 is that there are two issues. The first is about the weaker Christian who believes eating the meat is a sin as opposed to the stronger Christian who understands that it is not. That is where the weaker and stronger side of the issue lies. Paul deals with this as a liberty issue. Personally, I think this does apply to this situation (and I know that that may sound arrogant but I don’t mean it to).

However, I think the greatest application of Roman 14 is to the responses by both sides. This is the second issue. Paul spends most of his time in this chapter dealing with the attitudes and responses of both sides toward the other. As he developed the theology of Salvation in Romans 1-11, he is now telling his audience how that Salvation looks in the life of the believers. One of the ways that the Gospel impacts us is by the way we respond to our brothers and sisters when we have a difference of opinion that is not clearly a sin or other Scriptural issue. Paul gives insight into what is the proper side, but he does not deal with this as he deals with sin in other passages.

The debate usually comes down to “is it a Biblical mandate to homeschool/christian school or not”. Those on the affirmative often use this as a standard of spirituality, while those who are on the other side look at the decision as one of liberty. What Paul would say is that either side needs to have their attitude draped in grace and mercy and not be harshly critical of the other. If you think you should homeschool/christian school-then you should (vs 14). If you think it is a matter of liberty and choice then do so without casting judgement on those who differ.

It is this second issue of Romans 14 (I believe the major thrust) that is most applicable to the way we respond in this debate. Not that we shouldn’t share our ideas and opinions based on Scripture, but that these should be done so in a manner that is for the building up, not the tearing down of one another.

For the record, we currently have our children in private christian schooling. We have friends who home school and also many friends who have their children in the public school.

I have personally seen how this topic has been used as a weapon by Satan to disrupt the unity within a local church.

These are just some thoughts,
Dan


91. Andy
December 13, 2006
6:57 PM

I have not seen anyone mention Deut. 6 or the application of it to the public school setting (then again I may I have missed something).

Given that teachers are taking the place of parents throughout the day (they are the substitute/representative of the parent) - How can a Christian parent be obedient to Deut. 6 and send their children to public school?


92. jontsai
December 13, 2006
7:04 PM

“But we do not avoid worldliness by secluding ourselves from the world. The key to escaping worldliness is not to avoid the world, but to avoid acting like the world and thinking like the world.”

one of many good quotes in this article

i liked this article much better than the previous one.

i think… just do everything in faith =)

i didn’t get to read all of the comments, but anyhow, we are saved by God’s grace. i’m not a parent, nor am i engaged or married… but one question that i’ve had for a while that’s been unanswered is whether it is possible for Christian parents who raise their children biblically, can end up with unbelieving children when they grow up.

for example, can a super Christian like Name Your Favorite Pastor ever raise up a child who is not a believer? i believe the answer is yes, although the Bible does talk about “Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.”

God is good and God is gracious, but He is not obligated to save our children just because we are Christians and we give them super good, solid biblical parenting. He saves them because He is pleased to do so.

Even for me, there is a tendency to be man-centered and think, “Well, perhaps the parent gave bad parenting.”

I guess you or the other readers might already know what I’m saying, but it’s still difficult for me to fully grasp. I see it just like evangelism. Just as God is sovereign over evangelism and salvation, but we are still responsible for being obedient to the great commission and all of Scripture, God is sovereign over parenting and salvation of children whose parents are Christian—God’s sovereignty does not void man’s responsibility.


93. Matt Moran
December 13, 2006
7:06 PM

We have had our kids in both public school and homeschooled. We prefer homeschooled - for now - for a very simple reason - time.

Time
We found school to be too much of an imposition on our sometime nomadic lifestyle. We also find that we can - on good days - finish schooling in about 3 or 4 hours.

As far as missions type work, we seem to have no lack of non-christian friends and acquantances over all the time and have many kitchen-table apologetics sessions with quite a few un-churched high-school kids.

But we take a very non-judgmental - pragmatic approach to education. You must do what works for your family - on a child by child basis. We have seen unrelenting dogmatism on both sides of the educational fence.

Should you homeschool - absolutely! If you feel it is a good option of you. Most important: be involved regardless of the educational vehicle you choose for your children.

Our homeschool experience is primarily driven by educational reasons. Religious reasons were not a factor. In fact, I we do not have “bible” or “religion” as an educational topic - a class as it were - because we believe it is life. I don’t want to grade my children on “religion” - I would rather live it with them.

Matt
http://www.HomeschoolVideoBlog.com


94. C.H.H.
December 13, 2006
7:28 PM

Tim,

I don’t know if you’ll read this or not, but I think you’ll find your mind changing with every year your kids spend in public school. They’re young now: everything changes when they get into junior high, or even before then.

I had been educated at home and in a Christian school up to grade 3, but that was my first year of public school. My mom’s decision to return to homeschooling (which took a few years) likely started when I came home one day that year and asked her what a lesbian was, because the boys on the playground had been telling me that I was one.

Within several months I, the cute 9-year old from the Christian home, was using the f-word more often than the guys I used to work construction with. That summer a grade 8 boy showed my sister and I what hard-core porn looks like. Mom never knew any of this until much later.

Just up the road here in Regina, SK, the grade 5 kids at the elementary school have oral sex parties, where the winner is the person who has had the most partners.

So, I appreciate your thoughts, but I’m expecting an article in a few years entitled “Why I changed my mind on homeschooling” or something like that.

Chris


95. jontsai
December 13, 2006
7:38 PM

mmm. #91 Andy brings out a great point. How can you obey Deut 6 by sending your kids to public school?


96. jontsai
December 13, 2006
7:51 PM

I think I’m just going to have to comment one last time, and then stop reading, otherwise I’ll be a spammer!

#94 C.H.H. is great also—thanks for sharing your experience.

When we look at kids today, we see them as kids… but in OT times, wasn’t it something like 12 or 13 years old where they would be adults? In this case, you only have ~7 years to train up your child, and after that you can still continue to do so.

#78 “You are talking about the most precious thing God grants us besides our salvation and our spouse.”

Taking all of the comments into consideration, we would be wise to rethink twice, thrice, and more times, pray, seek counsel, guidance, etc.

One thing I’ve recently learned is that while I should never borrow convictions or do things merely because other people are doing them—I should not quickly discredit or ignore them, especially if they are faithful, godly men, and even more especially if they lived out faithful, godly lives.

Hebrews 13:7 — “Consider… imitate”


97. Ian Clary
December 13, 2006
7:53 PM

Hey Tim,
I appreciate your honesty and forthwrightness on this issue. I am sure that this is a decision that you and your wife made with a lot of prayer and consideration. Thanks for sharing. It used to be that if you homeschooled, people thought you were nuts, even in the church. Now, so it seems, if you don’t homeschool you’re nuts.
My wife and I honestly don’t know what we’ll do when we have kids. This is an issue that is very important and interesting to me. I know that Christian school is not an option, because it’s highway robbery to send your kids to one. And you are right, kids will find just as much sin in a Christian school as they will any where else. I’ve seen the horrors of Christian schools, that’s for sure.
I lean towards homeschooling for a variety of reasons. Although we could very well also send our kids to public school. One of the reasons why I want to homeschool has to do with the state of education in Canada today. It is abysmal to say the least. Since the rise of pragmatism in the last century, children no longer learn how to learn. Instead they learn “facts.” The process of learning is done away with. Hence, if we homeschooled, I would be in control of the curriculum. I am consistently blown away with how well educated homeschool kids are, especially if they follow a classical model.
I wondered if you would consider posting something on this issue as well? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the quality of education your kids will get in the public school. You must have gone through issues like choosing a good school. I would love to hear advice on that.
Thanks again bro.


98. Dallas Pymm
December 13, 2006
8:06 PM

How about this? How is one not obeying Deut 6 by sending thier children to public school?


99. theologian
December 13, 2006
8:11 PM

Andy said: I have not seen anyone mention Deut. 6 or the application of it to the public school setting (then again I may I have missed something).

I mentioned it much earlier, post #5…
“School is for teaching children. The Bible tells us what we are to teach our children (Lev 10:11; Deut 4:9; Deut 6:7; Deut 11:19). In public schools they will [not] be taught those things.”


100. Carole
December 13, 2006
8:14 PM

Tim, I’m new to commenting on your blogs but have been reading for about a year and a half now. Your posts are always interesting and your site is the first place I look if I’m in need of a good book review.

My husband and I have three little ones and plan to homeschool. When people ask us what we’re going to do (which is frequently because we’re both from families which homeschool) we say, “We’re going to homeschool this year - we want to be flexible and evaluate from year to year and consider the needs of each child.” I feel right now that most likely our decision each year will be to continue homeschooling. But I want to remind myself that maybe things will change, that maybe there will be a season when we choose a different path.

May I suggest that perhaps some of the strong reactions here are sparked by the feeling that you, as a young father, claim to have figured out the right path for your children for the next 25+ years. Maybe it is the right path! But maybe it will change. And maybe some of us who see great benefits to homeschooling (and aren’t wanting to point fingers at Christians with kids in public schools) just want to hear that you’d be open to home education if God were to place it on your heart.


101. Matt S
December 13, 2006
8:27 PM

I am a 17 year old guy who attends a Christian high school. Personally, I wouldn’t sacrifice that for anything. There is no reason, if you have the opportunity to attend a good Christian school, to surround yourself in a godless atmosphere while you are learning and growing. The relationships I have with my teachers and friends have Jesus Christ at the center—HE is the center; the reason and the goal of my academics, relationships, and sports. I could not imagine playing for a public school team. There would be a disconnect between my teammates—the honor of Christ would not be our motivation collectively.

Do I think that every Christian boy or girl should be homeschooled or attend a Christian school? No. I live near one of the most “Christianized” public schools in the country—and it really is a “good school” in terms of academics, clubs, sports, etc. I know that a solid Christian can enter the public school system and not be corrupted. I know I could do just fine at a public school, but that’s not my desire. There is plenty—PLENTY of witnessing and influencing to be done with kids at a Christian school.

With that said, I also would like to recognize the fact that there are a lot of flat out BAD Christian schools. They are not run well; they settle for mediocrity in athletics—everything is cheesy. I would NOT want to attend such a school, and feel sorry for those who do.

I guess my conclusion on the matter is that if there is a student who is very easily influenced—the public school system is not the place for him (obviously). I think it really comes down to a case-by-case basis and personal conviction of the parents—which is what Tim Challies seems to conclude as well.


102. Val
December 13, 2006
8:28 PM

Tim, in all Christian love, you are a young parent and I appreciate your desire to lay out what you think would be the best education for your children, but I’m afraid you’re in for a shock. As an older mother of five, who has done it all-public school, home school and Christian school over the last 20 years, I would caution you about making any grand statements about your educational plans. When your first grader comes home and tells you that they read “Two Princes” during story time as they did in our school, and you find out that your law does not require parents to be notified that your children are hearing homosexual propaganda, you may begin to see your vision of your children as missionaries to the unsaved change somewhat. Our third grader came home asking what condoms were and why the boys were calling her “sexy”. The school was full of children who had been raised on MTV. The little girls in her classroom were talking about what boys had the best “ass” (sorry, that’s what the children said to our daughter) and which ones they “wanted”. Our little girl was introduced to what sex was, according to a 9-year-old friend, who decided to tell her what body part went where in the females body and informed her that her parents should have already told her this. We had planned on talking with our daughter ourselves but were cheated out of it. I would caution you that until you have placed your child in the midst of the children in our culture who are chest deep in the filthy of media, you simply can’t know the devastation you will feel that the innocence of your children is taken, stomped on and discarded. Home schooling was a haven, a place where our daughter was safe to be who God intended her to be, so that she could develop. Like a hothouse plant, she needed time to grow godly roots. Instead, we put her in the middle of a storm and expected her to thrive. So you’re welcome to your views on this, but be aware that God often has a way of tweaking our plans and we learned that letting the ungodly disciple our five children for 30 hours a week, left us precious little time to undo the damage. You’ll soon learn what I mean if your kids are headed off to public school. The moral filth begins earlier than you’d ever dream and the damage is farther lasting as well. Just ask two of our three sons who once loved to go to Sunday school and church who are now fully in the world as young adults after 4 years in the our public schools. Don’t overestimate your own influence. The pull to BE influenced, rather than influence is greater than you’d ever believe.


103. Dallas Pymm
December 13, 2006
8:51 PM

Theologian,
Are you saying that because we are to teach are children that we are the only ones who can teach our children?
If the school does not teach the things of God does that mean that the parents can’t?
Is there no reasonable way a parent can teach their kids about God and send their kids to public school?


104. carissa
December 13, 2006
8:55 PM

once again i’m commenting as a college student with no plans for having children for quite some time, but what i’d like to say is thank you.

if nothing else, tim, your posts and the ensuing comments have caused me to think about something i had no intention of musing over for years. i’m sure my convictions will evolve as time goes on, but the main thing is that here are these examples (100+ strong) of Christian parents who show utmost concern for shepherding the souls of their kids for the glory of God. you and your wife are a great example, tim. no matter whether or not in a few years you will fulfill the prophecies of some of these older parents and change your mind; it seems clear that appearing to be in the right is much less a priority to you than actually doing right, by both God and your children. so thanks! that’s cool.


105. DeeDee
December 13, 2006
8:58 PM

This is interesting in the least. There have been arguments(for lack of a better word) for both sides of the fence.

Testimonies where Christian kids came out fine—even stronger—- and stories from parents who had no problems with their kids in the public shcool system.
Yet you have just as many telling their polar opposite horror stories of having personally been in the system, and parents who have had their children traumatized in the system.

To be honest, in my search for truth in this matter, this is always what it comes down to. But, there is no common thread that makes all the good cases good, nor the bad cases bad.

So, when all is said and done, it seems to be that it’s a gamble should a Christian parent choose public/private school.

It’s certainly not an uninformed decision, that’s for sure.


106. Mike Perrigoue
December 13, 2006
9:06 PM

Tim said “The key to escaping worldliness is not to avoid the world, but to avoid acting like the world and thinking like the world.”

Do you think that your kids will escape public school without “acting like the world”? You’re much more optimistic than most Christians I know.

You said, “I am not afraid of the world and what it may do to my children. There is nothing the world can offer that is greater or stronger than God’s grace.”

Not afraid of the world? I think I know what you’re driving at but it does sound a bit cavalier.

Tim, what would you do if there was no such thing as public school? You make it sound like without public school we lose an opportunity to avoid worldliness. Proverbs 22:6 says, “Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.” From what I can tell you believe we should also let our kids see and experience the way we should NOT go in order for them to pick the right way to go. Confusing. Dangerous.

How do you reconcile your “conviction” for public school with the following verses?

Psalm 1:1 - “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,”

Are not unbelieving teachers and instructors wicked?

Proverbs 13:20 - “Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.”

Will you let your children only become friends with the other Christian kids at public school?

Luke 6:40 - “A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”

Shocker there.

Unless God’s Word is in error (which I know you believe it is not) I don’t see how you get around this one. Although I am very interested in your explanation if you have one.

Bottom line: Homeschool, Public School or Christian School; the debate does not lie in which method but in whether or not we should be letting teachers without (or in opposition of) a Christian worldview teach our children. I happen to think not.

BTW
I’d also like to here an answer to whether or not you’d put your kid in public school before they become a Christian.


107. Bill Combs
December 13, 2006
9:30 PM

I would simply urge you to read Moo’s commentary on Romans. I think you have misuderstood the weak and strong. Weak means weak in faith, faith to believe what God has instructed in Scripture. God has said that believers can eat any food and do not have to observe any special days, but the weak are unable to believe God. As such, the home school decision would not seem to fall into what Paul is discussing.


108. Ken
December 13, 2006
10:08 PM

Tim,
Please allow a few comments on some of your comments.
You said:”I believe that God has called every Christian to missions, whether we are born, live and die in our native culture or whether we choose to move halfway around the world and immerse ourselves in another culture. Every Christian is called to missions, for the Great Commission has not been rescinded and will not be until the Lord returns”
Comment: Your first field of evangelism is your children. They are souls given you to win for Christ. They are not bridges to the lost (!) Sheesh.

You said:”I want them to be with kids who are not Christians, to be friends with them and to love them, to learn what separates them from their friends, and to begin to understand how their convictions make them different from others.”
Comment: What makes you think that that can’t happen with homeschooled children? We have four home schooled kids (two still going, two graduated)who all know and chum around with non Christian people. Homeschool is not a bubble world and you reflect some of the worst caricatures of homeschool when you imply that homeschool kids and their folks don’t interact with the non saved. Sheesh.

You said:”To think that we can keep our children from being worldly by sheltering them from the world is false. Sooner or later children will want to see what the world has to offer. It is far better to let them see it when their hearts are tender, their confidence is in their parents, and their abilities are limited. Children who do not experience the world until they are old enough to be able partake in all its so-called pleasures are children who fall away”
Comment: Home school is not about sheltering our children from the world. We were attempting to obey Colossians 2:8 and Ephesians 6:4. Do you offer your children alcohol while they are young? Planning on taking your son to a strip club? Rent a few gangster movies just to introduce them to the blood and gore? The philosophies of the world are more pernicious than porn, alcohol, and senseless violence, yet we feel it legitimate to expose our kids to it at an early age while protecting them from the other. Why do you travel so far to go to church? Sheesh

You said:”If you are a homeschooler and are about to post a comment disagreeing with me for my decision, I’d like you to first consider how you are seeking to carry out the Great Commission and how you are equipping your children to do so and allowing them opportunity even now to witness to peers.”
Comment: Home schooling is an oppoortunity to offer the Gospel. I can’t tell you how many times we have had opportunity to explain what we believe when we tell people we home school and then answer the question “Why?”. We have had nothing but respect from every single non Christian who knows we home school. The only opposition we have ever had comes from Christians. The number one response from non Christians is “I wish I could do that”. See any chance for the Gospel in response to that? We equipped the children by doing what you suggested. Teach them to respect those who disagree and yet do not respect the belief. The old illustration about training people to recognize counterfeit money, not by showing them what is counterfeit, but by having them know the real so well that when the opposite shows up they will know it immediately. My 21 year old son was telling me about his debate with his co-workers, his friends, regarding free will. My 23 year old daughter has non Christian friends coming to our Christmas services. My 18 year old daughter is being called prudish for refusing to get drunk and have sex at a party. Aw sheesh.

I am sure someone will tear this apart but there it is anyway.


109. Todd H. in Zeeland
December 13, 2006
10:19 PM

Aileen said: “To be honest with you reading these comments makes me so MAD! I’m amazed at the lack of grace and humility shown by the people posting here, on both sides of the argument! (of course there are exceptions)”

If you really think this debate is that bad, you just might be in for a shock soon.


110. Shauna
December 13, 2006
11:15 PM

I find it difficult to imagine your public-schools-devoid-of-Christians scenario because it’s so far from the current reality. I don’t know what the numbers look like in Canada, but in the US, 90% of American children are public schooled. It’s also estimated that 80-90% of Christians still send their children to public school. Although the small percentage of Christians who homeschool continues to increase, to imply that soon there may be no Christians left in public education is mostly hyperbole.

I whole-heartedly agree with your views about the importance of homeschoolers being deliberate about getting involved in their community and seeking relationships with nonbelievers but would challenge all Christians who are public schooling their children to be deliberate about doing the same. Education is only one component of a person’s life, and we all have a sphere of influence no matter what type of education our children are engaged in.


111. Jerry M
December 13, 2006
11:20 PM

There have been a lot of good points made in this debate/ discussion/ slugfest. I still think that each individual family needs to weigh their options and prayerfully make the best choice for their family.

We live in a small town in Iowa that is fairly conservative - where many of the teachers at the public school are Christians, where many of the students come from Christian homes, you get the idea. I know that if we were living in a bigger city - my wife and i have both felt that would probably tip the scale over to the home schooling side for us. Right now - we just have one in school [1st grade] and it is working well. I expect it to be a yearly evaluation.

With that said, I would add that if I ever were looking for a church and discovered that every family in the church either home schooled or all Christian schooled - I would run from that church like the plague because man made rules have taken the place of the Holy Spirit.

Of course it is the parent’s responsibility to train up their children in the ways of the Lord - but that doesn’t mean they must learn math and reading at home as well. If it did - many of our founding fathers in America missed that concept completely by starting the public schools often for the purpose of teaching children to read so they could read the Bible and live morally - thus benefitting society.

The same logic some are using could be made to show that children should not go to Sunday school and be taught by someone other than mom or dad as well.


112. Afrikaner
December 13, 2006
11:23 PM

Tim
You certainly know how to open up a can of worms! Now you must feel ‘flat out like a lizard drinking’ keeping up with them all. (Or as ‘Busy as a blowie at a barbie.’)

Deedee 105:
“So, when all is said and done, it seems to be that it’s a gamble should a Christian parent choose public/private school.”

Nothing in this life is a gamble - we live by faith through grace. And when all is said and done, I’m convinced that there are both good reasons to homeschool or not to homeschool, however they are issues of liberty. Also when all is said and done - wrt to our children’s salvation - that too is in God’s sovereignty. Genes or sheltering within a homeschool, christian school or sending to Sunday School, or catechising at home ete etc, will not save them. They too are saved by grace through faith - and that is a gift from God. We can plant, another can water - but it is God who gives the increase.


113. theologian
December 13, 2006
11:33 PM

Dallas asks me: Are you saying that because we are to teach are children that we are the only ones who can teach our children?
If the school does not teach the things of God does that mean that the parents can’t?
Is there no reasonable way a parent can teach their kids about God and send their kids to public school?

To the first question, no. But i don’t think the public schools are where they will be getting that education, and that is what school is for…education.

To the second question, yes the parents can teach the things of God, but they would not have enough hours in the day to counterbalance or unteach what the child learned in the public school during the day. Why send a child to be educated at a public school and then have to educate them when they get home as well?

To the third question, yes, but is it best for the child to teach them about God for a couple of hours and then send them off to learn about anti-Christian principles for another 7 hours? I have serious doubts about that. And by learning anti-Christian principles i not only mean in the official teaching but also in the socialization.

I don’t think it right to use our children as pawns in such a serious thing as spiritual warfare. They incur too many injuries.

There is clear direction in the Scriptures for bringing our children up in the fear of the Lord and teaching them His ways. Nowhere are we admonished to teach our children in the ways of the non-Christian world or to submit them willfully to a sinful environment so that they can learn how to get along in the world.


114. Juice
December 13, 2006
11:51 PM

Tim,

My comment “So do you wait until your kids are Christians and baptized before you put them in the public school system?” was a legitimate question for you. I wasn’t trying to be “snippy” or “sarcastic” or anything like that, sorry if it came across that way.

I hope can address it if you have the time.

Juice


115. Chris U
December 13, 2006
11:55 PM

wayyyy too many comments to read, but i think it’s a good post. i have family that homeschools and they are great, my favorite relatives, however my cousins are not exposed to the world and they will be thrown into fire later- they also lack friends beside their family and some friends at church, no non christian friends

i also knew homeschoolers in college that had these dynamic networks and were in the world

either way, i think you’re right- no matter what you do, are you pursuing Great Commission? Jesus prayed that God keep us in the world and protect us from the evil one- we must be intentional to be in the world and avoid worldliness


116. DeeDee
December 14, 2006
12:17 AM

Afrikaner:
I was being a bit facetious with the gamble comment. I believe we live by faith through grace, and there is no “chance”. God is completely sovereign over everything.

I think it’s as someone stated early in the discussion, it’s not really an issue of liberty for a lot of people. Many do believe it’s a Biblical mandate for parents to raise and teach their children. If their children are away from them, they cannot be teaching and training them.

I’ve often wanted to actually sit down and break down the exact hours and minutes a public shcooling parent acutally gets to spend with their child. Between school, extracurricular activities(especially in jr/sr high), church and church activities, homework, time spent with friends, boyfriends/girlfriends(if you are okay with that), running errands, and the biggie—sleep. On a weekly basis, what kind of time does that really look like?
So if we are called, as parents, to train and teach and raise our children….and you’ve only got an eensy bit of time to do it….it kind of moves from a liberty to a mandate. I think that’s one of the reasons why this discussion always gets so heated.

And you are absolutely right! It is God who saves, and Him alone. Not my method of anything. I have never believed that homeschooling would save my children. However, you are also right that one plants and one waters….the question is….who exactly is doing the planting and watering? Especially when our children are still unregenerate or are just starting “boot camp”.


117. Van H. Edwards
December 14, 2006
12:22 AM

Juice,
Also not to be snippy or sarcastic, but maybe you should explain why this is such a critical question to answer. Is being baptized and called “Christian” a silver bullet against the evils of public school?
And why is public school the breaking point? Should children be Christians and baptized before they can go shopping at the mall with you? Play sports? Watch TV? Play with other children in the neighborhood? Crack open a book other than the Bible?


118. Kate
December 14, 2006
12:36 AM

Thank you so much for sharing this post! As parents of 3 who are members of a Sovereign Grace church where 85-90% of the families homeschool, reading this is a breath of fresh air for my husband and me. We feel constant pressure to “jump on the bandwagon” and homeschool our kids, when we feel God’s voice clearly encouraging us to continue in the public school in our community. Homeschooling is a wonderful, wonderful thing for many families. I’ve personally seen many great blessings, especially in our church, from the homeschooling families here. I have also seen the same from Christian and public schooling familes. We are the body of Christ, with different callings, gifts, and types of children. We should all be working together for the sake of the Gospel to impact our community and praying for and encouraging one another in the process.

On that note: How can someone from downtown Chicago, for example, make a blanket statement about public schools in Anytown, Kansas, Texas, Oregon, or Alabama…? This is ridiculous! Along with this thought, yes, Scripture is important to base our lives off of, but we must look at the culture in which certain Scripture is written. As Tim mentions in a comment, children were adults sooner in those days. There are many, many more examples of this, but I am too tired to post them and, most likely, no one is even reading the end of this comment by now. I am certainly not suggesting that we disregard all parts of Scripture that seem to be written specifically for that time period or to a certain group of people. It’s all important to us now in one way or another, but we must pray for God’s wisdom and discernment in interpreting what we read…and for God’s protection from assuming something is a cultural issue when it might not be.

Bottom Line: Do what you believe is Biblically sound for your family and pray for those, in love, with whom you disagree. Heaven forbid we actually learn something from each other!


119. Kate
December 14, 2006
12:45 AM

One more thing…

I have read many comments on the amount of time parents spend with their public schooled children. I think most of us could agree (maybe) that it is the quality of time that counts, not quantity. Also, when I was in public school, my mom (and sometimes dad) was there all the time helping with class projects, serving in the cafeteria, working with the PTA, tutoring our class. Many of my friends’ parents did this, as well, and I know it’s done some today in many schools, so if quantity is what everyone is worried about, this can be taken care of, as well.


120. Van H. Edwards
December 14, 2006
1:01 AM

“I think it’s as someone stated early in the discussion, it’s not really an issue of liberty for a lot of people. Many do believe it’s a Biblical mandate for parents to raise and teach their children. If their children are away from them, they cannot be teaching and training them.”

DeeDee,
1st, Not everyone is in the same “situation”. Home and work situations vary from family to family just as school systems do from district to district. In some cases, a school choice must be made because other options are either untenable or simply won’t work. Personally, our situation is a very good public school system, involvement in our children’s school - including knowing other students and teachers, and plenty of home time for Bible training. If we were one county over, I can’t say we’d have our children in that school system.

2nd, While I agree that many “situations” make home-schooling the right choice or “mandate” as you call it, to call it a mandate or the only choice for ALL Christians is wrong. (And I’m not saying you’re saying that.) I’ve read the arguments against public schools, including all the horror stories (experience is a poor way to create doctrine, by the way) but I am not convinced that home schooling is the only right way in every situation. And though some stop short of calling Christians attending public school a sin, they sure try to make it sound like it is. My hope is that since the majority of commentors on this board don’t know each other or their situations, they would give the benefit of the doubt here and show a little more grace in what they say about brothers and sisters with differing opinions.

And, DeeDee, these comments were prompted by something you said in your last post, but I hope you don’t think they are aimed at you specifically.

Thanks,
Van


121. Jeff
December 14, 2006
1:45 AM

“Children who do not experience the world until they are old enough to be able partake in all its so-called pleasures are children who fall away.”

Actually, I think it’s the opposite. Children who experience the world when they are very young open their hearts and minds to evil and destructive influences that can take a lifetime of healing to erase. Right now, when they’re young, is when you need to solidify their hearts, protect them from the enemy, let them grow deep and strong roots so that yes, they can step out into the world little by little having gained confidence and trust in you as you show them by example how to trust you and their Father in heaven.

I know you have young children Tim, and right now it seems the right thing to do but as they get older I hope you keep on eye on where their hearts are going. In our experience, and it’s just one experience, the power and influence of both peer pressure and the sheer quantity and volume of exposure to other, often ungodly, voices is difficult to counter even with all of your good intentions, counsel and prayers.

Psalm 1 I think says it best, “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.”

I know you’re young yet and I can see, somewhat idealistic. Certainly I was just like you at that age. But now my oldest daughter is 14 and we just started homeschooling. Oh, how I wish I could get those years back. Eight hours a day for ten years is tough to overcome. I wish you well but I have a suspicion you will change your mind. You simply may have to. Because when you’re 45, half of what you knew at 30, you realize, was just plain wrong. Is that what happens at 60 also?


122. Afrikaner
December 14, 2006
2:04 AM

“Many do believe it’s a Biblical mandate for parents to raise and teach their children. If their children are away from them, they cannot be teaching and training them.”

Yes my children do spend time at out-of- house type schools (1 at a Christian school, 1 now at a NC Private College). 2 have left school. My wife nor I have the gifts to teach higher level mathematics, nor French, nor physics, nor a raft of other subject areas …. don’t please try to persuade me that we can, because we’ve been there and we can’t…

All 4 of my children are well adjusted human beings - 2 now name the name of Christ as profession of faith. 1 is now married and other is school teacher. Yes we try to maintain godly instruction and discipline and we do have a group of brothers and sisters within our home church who seek to live by the word, so find encouragement there.

Thankfully in our part of the world, our education system has not become as degenerate as it seems to have done in some parts of North America.

Again - thanks everyone for the discussion. I hope that those of you who do home school out of personal conviction have the grace to allow others not to home school, without feeling they are condemned already. And likewise - I too have been at the end of being called a home school lunatic, and have been told our children will ‘have deficiencies, which only ‘we’ - the christian school- can correct….. I hope you can in freedom, continue to home school without others calling you whackos or whatever.

Peace….


123. Brian G
December 14, 2006
2:21 AM

Tim,

“I believe that God has called every Christian to missions”

If you are referring to Mat 28:19,20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I fail to see the correlation between missions and sending the ones who we are currently discipling (our children) out to teach and disciple others. By your argument regarding missions and by the nature of children can I assume that you believe a 9 year old telling another 9 year old “I love Jesus and you should love him too” is what you would define as “missions”?

Respectfully we will have to disagree here. The “teaching all nations” as described by Jesus is a pretty significant calling. Johnny and Suzy talking to the friends about God creating the heavens and the earth isn’t discipleship.

“Imagine, if you will, that every Christian pulls their children from the public schools.”

Unfortunately, based on the context in which you wrote this, you have set up anyone who sees this as positive event in the body of Christ to be an offensive or judgmental response. Public schools have not always existed, but within our culture (and within the Church) it has become normative. It would be pretty amazing to see what the body of believers would do if they all of a sudden had to rely solely on the Holy Spirit to educate their children and did not have the public school system to rely on. Please do not take this to mean that Christians who now use the public school system are NOT relying on the Holy Spirit. I am only saying that they now have some amount of reliance on the public education system WHILE STILL WALKING BY THE SPIRIT. If the option of the public education system no longer exists, then their dependence to educate their children will fall more heavily on the Holy Spirit.

“We genuinely love the people around us and want to know them, both so we can relate to them as friends and so we can, with God’s help, witness to them of His love and grace.”

Do you believe Rev 21:8 to be ABSOLUTELY true? “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Do you also believe Mat 25:13 to be ABSOLUTELY true? “Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

If so, then why are you waiting for your children to “build bridges” to your neighbors? If you genuinely love the people around you, you would have already confronted them of their sin and shown them their desperate need for a Savior. Using our children as an excuse to present the gospel to someone doesn’t show them that we truly care whether they will burn in hell or not.

“It is far better to let them see it when their hearts are tender, their confidence is in their parents, and their abilities are limited. Children who do not experience the world until they are old enough to be able partake in all its so-called pleasures are children who fall away.”

Let me ask you…when you and your wife were young Christians being discipled by a mature believer, did he/she pull out the Koran and tell you to study it diligently so you can know and recognize false teaching?

Or, after you were married, did you and your wife divorce right away in order to experience separation; experience the breaking of a life-time commitment; and experience the emotional, physical and spiritual loss that a divorce could bring? Did you do this so you could more fully understand what the many couples who have experienced divorce have gone through and then you could avoid it in the future or even more fully relate to those who have divorced?

Or, have you ever experienced the addictive nature of meth or heroin in order to more fully understand the dangers of the addiction and warn others about it?

It is a deception by Satan that we need to somehow experience evil in order to be able to avoid it in the future.

Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Another issue that no one has touched on yet is what some call “forced benevolence”. Have you and your wife considered how you will teach your children about the “forced benevolence” the government uses to provide for your child’s education? One suggestion would be to go house to house asking each of your neighbors who contribute to your child’s education if they are willing to contribute. If they are, express your gratitude and move on. If they are not willing to contribute, then you would immediately reimburse them for the taxes that they paid for your child’s education. What a witnessing tool this could be and an effective bridge building activity with your neighbors.

This may sound ridiculous, but if we want to teach our children the biblical principles of cheerful giving and giving without compulsion, then this is the least that we should do. The other option, of course, would be to NOT take the benefit of the forced benevolence and then with a clear conscience train our children to give freely and without compulsion and that the acts of the government are biblically wrong.

Brian G


124. Brian G
December 14, 2006
2:24 AM

Tim,

There have been others who have referenced other scripture and I won’t belabor the points:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Pro 13:20 He that walketh with wise [men] shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

Psa 1:1-2 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God…

1 Cor 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Pro 17:6 Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.

All this to say, your reasoning appears to be just that, “reasoning”, rather than scripture based discernment. I don’t say this to judge or condemn your choice, but I say this to encourage you as a brother in Christ to thoroughly seek the Lord in your decisions and consider His will in accordance with His word. He will never lead contrary to His Word. If you are absolutely convinced that your decision is consistent with His word; commanded by His word; and led by the Holy Spirit, then you must follow your decision. May God bless your family.

Brian G


125. Afrikaner
December 14, 2006
2:59 AM

Dear Brian

I would question you use of scripture in which you take most of these verses out of context and we all know that a verse out of context becomes a pretext. (or at least a ‘proof’ text).


126. Mike
December 14, 2006
5:01 AM

These are excellent posts, and timely. My wife and I are church-planters in Siberia, and our oldest child is just now coming of school age. We’ve been praying about which route to take: public school or homeschooling. The schools here are not so bad education-wise, but have the same, if not worse, moral and social issues as schools (in general) have in the West. We are still praying about it, but leaning towards the public-school option as well, and for some of the same reasons you described.


127. Matt
December 14, 2006
7:35 AM

Tim,

Thanks for all the time you devote to the site. I’ve only recently discovered and embraced Reformed Theology and its corresponding worldview and have found your site immensely edifying.

Regarding schooling, parents should let their conscience be their guide and this after much thought and prayer. I do believe this to be a liberty issue, but if our children are to become ambassadors for Christ, at some point they must step off the reservation. If not in the public school environment, then through some other social outlet.


128. Juanita
December 14, 2006
8:05 AM

Hi Tim,

I appreciate the fact that you have set out your reasons for public school. I disagree with you but it is important for each family to make their own decisions.

I do wonder, however, what reading you have done regarding homeschooling. I hate to say this but if your main reading about homeschooling has been Dan’s Myths of Homeschooling, it hardly describes what homeschooling truly is.

To that end, I would recommend some excellent books on the subject of Christian education, some from a homeschooling perspective, some not. It may be that they won’t change your mind about public school but will at least give you perspective on what Christian education truly is.

For the Children’s Sake - Susan Schaeffer Macauley
Joy in the Journey - Susan Card
Norms & Nobility - David Hicks
Classical Education - Gene Edward Veith

The other comment I would make is that as a parent, I would rather be in charge of when my children are introduced to various aspects of the world. For our young ones (5 & 7), we are very protective and sheltering, although they hear us discussing issues all the time. Our older children (12 & 14) have much greater freedom in what they read and see and how they interact with the world but they have us to walk the path with them as needed. I would rather have that then have them exposed to the world on someone else’s timetable.

I think I would make the analogy to a greenhouse. When the plants are small and weak, they are sheltered from all the elements. As they grow, they are exposed to more and more of the elements until they are set out in the garden to fully bloom and produce. And, what happens to plants left too long in the greenhouse, without ever being transplanted? They become spindly and do not produce as well. There are times and seasons for special sheltering and fertilizing, as you will, and there are times and seasons for being set out in the middle of the garden.

Juanita


129. Larry F
December 14, 2006
8:06 AM

Excellent article. The only thing I would take issue with is your characterization of the ‘weaker’ and ‘stronger’ Christian. The distinction being based on which sinful reaction one had to the topic. My take would be if I have a sinful reaction to the topic of either stripe, I’m in the ‘weaker’ category.


130. julie
December 14, 2006
8:12 AM

Just a thought: the public school system is not invested with the power to “shape hearts”. Neither are we as parents given that power. The Holy Spirit alone can shape and change our children’s hearts. Without his power, it doesn’t matter what education we choose for our children, they will be spiritually doomed.

It seems that as parents we easily take on more responsibility for our children than is realistic. We are not God, and we don’t own our children. We are stewards and must completely rely on God for every resource we need to raise them. That’s why we can trust him with our children’s hearts regardless of which type of education he leads us to use. And we can trust him to lead our brothers and sisters in making that decision for their children.


131. Michael
December 14, 2006
8:30 AM

Tim,

Kudos (and condolences) for braving the firestorm. I’ve posted my reply to both your post and Ted Slater’s post “Why I Will Homeschool” (boundlessline.org) on my blog.

It’s entitled “Why I Will (and Won’t) Homeschool”.

I think you would agree with my assertion that there is no orthodox approach to schooling, rather, each family has it’s own sets of challeges to overcome and strengths to maximize.

Best,

Michael


132. Brian G
December 14, 2006
8:32 AM

Afrikaner,

“I would question you use of scripture in which you take most of these verses out of context and we all know that a verse out of context becomes a pretext. (or at least a ‘proof’ text).

Could you explain this a little further? Could you give greater detail or specific examples of what you mean? I’m willing to learn and listen.

Brian G


133. Brian at voiceofthesheep
December 14, 2006
9:14 AM

From post #119 - I think most of us could agree (maybe) that it is the quality of time that counts, not quantity.

Unless I missed it…this is this first mention in this thread that it is the quality of time spent, and not the quantity of time spent. I can’t believe it took that long for someone to use this (unless I missed it earlier).

I think this is usually a rationalization that many use to justify their spending so little time with their children (I am NOT saying the one who wrote this is doing that).

Anyway, it’s a false dichotomy. Just because the homeschooler’s time spent with their children is high quantity, doesn’t make the quality of time spent with their children go down. The homeschooling parents can have quantity AND quality…whereas the public schooling parent has to sacrifice one over the other.

For me and my wife, it still doesn’t come down to the ‘evils’ of public school…it is simply the amount of time we want to be able to spend with our children as they grow up.

The average public schooled child has probably only about three-five hours each day (and I think that is a generous number) during the week NOT sleeping or getting ready for school or being at school or doing school-related work at home (granted, some additional time can be spent by the parents with the child while helping them with their homework). That’s only three-five hours a day for that ‘quality’ time to be spent with the children by the parents.

Compare that to a homeschool situation where the amount of time spent with the parents at home during the week is upwards of 10-13 hours a day (and that is a conservative number) once time for sleeping and getting ready, etc. is subtracted out.

That equates to 15-25 hours of time spent a week with the parents for the publicly schooled, and 50-65 hours of time spent a week with the parents for the homeschooled (and that doesn’t even subtract out time during the week for kids to play away from their parents once they get home, which would reduce the hours for both groups, but more significantly for the public schoolers). That is a huge disparity…over three times as much time on the lower end and about 2.5 times more hours spent with the children by the homeschooled parents on the higher end.

As I said, for us it is mainly about the amount of time we want to spend with our children, and public school just doesn’t allow for that much time…not as much as we would prefer, anyway.

Sorry for the long post.


134. Tim Challies
December 14, 2006
9:45 AM

“Unless I missed it…this is this first mention in this thread that it is the quality of time spent, and not the quantity of time spent. I can’t believe it took that long for someone to use this (unless I missed it earlier).

I think this is usually a rationalization that many use to justify their spending so little time with their children (I am NOT saying the one who wrote this is doing that). “

I’d tend to agree with Brian here. When it comes to kids, I think quantity is quality. The concept of quality time, in my understanding, didn’t really come around until after divorce became common and people had to justify being “weekend dads” by believing that at least they do fun things with their kids when they do see them.


135. Suz
December 14, 2006
10:25 AM

I have read both entries and all the comments. There are some excellent comments from both of these blog entries.

As I type, I pray I articulate with grace and humility, because at this point I feel compelled to weigh in.

While I agree that as parents our choice of education is a matter of Christian liberty, I cannot escape from the experience I have had as a parent of four, and the eighteen years we spent in the public school system. The last six of those years I taught at the elementary level, in order to be in the youngest two children’s school.

I can clearly see the downward spiral that began in the late eighties and finally prompted us to come out in 2005. And while I appreciate the comments from the educators and parents who have had a good experience in public education, I fear they will be the minority years ahead.

I live in a mid-size community is South Carolina, in the heart of the bible belt. In the years we were in the pss, I saw numerous arrests of teachers for inappropriate sexual relationships with their students. As I was in law enforcement in those early years, I made two of those arrests. On another occasion I intercepted an email from my then tenth grader’s physics teacher promising an A in exchange for oral sex. This would have been a homosexual experience. Found out later, he was well known for doing this.

I have had countless run-ins with teachers who came in the next day after an all nighter and gleefully recounted their sexual and drunken experiences from the night before…one of which was to my then thirteen year old daughter(and the rest of the class).

I went toe to toe with a principal who wanted to defend his English teacher’s delightful recitation to her ninth grade English class on how to have anal sex without pain.

Additionally, one becomes a pariah for having the audacity to stand up for one’s children. This is just the tip, but does offer the foundation of our decision to come out.

My point is this, if this is happening in a mid sized town in SC, it is happening elsewhere. Aside from the myriad of other reasons to not educate in the pss, (biblical reasons, fear of violence, humanist teachers with agendas, the position on homosexuality the pss is taking, among others) why would we risk it?


136. Juice
December 14, 2006
10:28 AM

Van,

Thanks for asking. The reason I asked about being baptized and a Christian is because that’s normally a prerequisite when sending out a missionary. If a believer is a paedo-baptist this isn’t really an issue, I guess. However, since many of us (including myself) are baptist and we don’t believe someone is a Christian until they have faith it would seem that if we’re going to look at sending our children to public school as missionaries we’d need to make sure they were Christians first.

Again, perhaps there’s more to it than that. Obviously having your children baptized is not a silver bullet for anything as far as worldly influences but it isn’t a silver bullet for missionaries we send to Uganda either. It’s just usually a prerequisite.

Does that make sense? I was just wondering if Tim had approached or encountered that question.

Juice


137. Mike Perrigoue
December 14, 2006
10:31 AM

“Children who do not experience the world until they are old enough to be able partake in all its so-called pleasures are children who fall away.”

Tim, there is no way you can state this as fact.

The fact is, if God is sovereign (which you and I believe is true) then none of the elect can fall away…regardless of the schooling method employed or the rate of exposure to the world.

If you’re confident that putting your children in public school has no bearing on their salvation, then you must also be confident that the time of exposure to certain worldliness plays no part in the formula for salvation.

School is for education. Not missions. And may I suggest that by having kids of your own (born little unbelievers) you’ve got the most important mission field already built into your family.

Don’t sacrifice the children that God has given you in order to evangelize those that God did not put under your guidance and protection.

If your kids are elect they will be saved. That we know. Our schooling methods may be more of an issue of glorifying God with our obedience in the way we teach and train our children. I’m positive school is not about saving our children and their schoolmates.


138. Chelsey Karns
December 14, 2006
10:32 AM

I’ve read every single comment on both posts. Wow. It’s unfortunate that these were posted during exam week, because I’ve probably spent more time reading comments than I have studying.

Last night my friend and I went to dinner and the topic of these posts came up. Both of us, before reading the posts, had decided we were going to home-school our children. Both of us are 20 years old. I am currently in a relationship that God is leading towards marriage. My friend is not yet in that season of life. Both of us come from very different schooling backgrounds. She went to public school her whole life. In fifth grade a boy in her class had a list of all the girls he wanted to have sex with. I was homeschooled through seventh grade and then sent to public school. I also have two younger sisters, one who started public school in fourth grade and is now in seventh grade, and one who started in seventh grade and is now in eleventh grade. I feel like I spent enough time at home under the teaching of my parents in order to survive in public school - but not to thrive. Honestly, I believe it is difficult for a Christian child/youth to thrive in public schools. While there may be the rare exception of those children with strong personalities who have received excellent teaching when younger, I would venture to say that most children are not that way. In addition, I am not entirely certain that I was even a Christian before my high school years (and don’t get me wrong- it was not going to public school that did it).

Some have brought up the issue of what would happen if all the Christian children were taken out of school. I’ll focus specifically on high school since that’s really my only experience. There were several Christian groups at my high school, some of which I was involved in. The problem with these “parachurch” groups is that there are generally no adult leaders involved, as teachers at the school can only supervise and sponsor. We had a variety of speakers come to FCA my freshman year, some who were preaching truth, and some who were preaching fluff. No one was holding any of them accountable, and no one was giving the leadership of FCA any kind of direction or wisdom.

Another facet of this is close to my heart, and even breaks my heart. My parents are believers. My sisters are ages 12 and 16, and, as I mentioned, were both home-schooled when they were younger. Though I think my parents believe them to be Christians, I am not so certain. They evidence no transformation or sanctification in their lives, leading me to believe they have not yet experienced salvation. My 16-year old sister, having been homeschooled through seventh grade, has dated a different boy every couple of months. “But wait!” some public school parents may say. “I won’t let my child date, even if they go to public school!” But see, that’s the problem with public schools. You can do whatever you want with your child when they’re at home, but you CANNOT control what goes on at school. Your daughter could be sneaking off campus with her boyfriend during lunch and you would have no idea. Catechizing your child at home does not counteract everything that goes on at school, because you simply can’t know everything that goes on at school. In high school in the fairly conservative state of South Carolina, in one of the best school districts in the state, I had two teachers who were openly gay, one who consistently presented liberalism and humanism as the only acceptable mode of thought, two teachers who were huge proponents of evolution, and at least two teachers who were feminists. I graduated valedictorian of my high school and came to college with a year of AP credit on full scholarship. Thus my academic education was sufficient and good — but morally, spiritually? It was a wasteland.

Having been homeschooled, I wasn’t sure I would homeschool. But now that I’m looking ahead to marriage and having children and am watching what my sisters are going through, it really is, I think, the only wise option. I know some parents may not be able to (for example, single parents or parents who MUST both work), but I don’t understand why parents would send their children to public school when they have the ability to school them at home.


139. jayfromcleveland
December 14, 2006
10:53 AM

Tim, you only seem to list the negative reasons why people homeschool, as though the whole movement is some sort of reaction to the abuses of the public schools. Surely there is an element of that in people’s opinions, but there are many positive reasons why people homeschool.

For one, we can inject the LORD into all our lessons. You will be hard pressed to fit in the same quality or quantity into your meager evening and weekend time with your kids.

For another, the student-teacher ratio is highly favorable. Also, we have direct control over the curriculum and how it is presented. Whether or not the schools will teach godless communism to your kids, you have delegated your curriculum control decisions to a stranger.

Homeschooling builds a strong family unit, as I can personally attest. I could give a rip what the likes of Douglas Wilson think in making snide remarks about us “homers.” Gene Edward Veith has pointed out that to bring back a culture, you must begin with the family, and that homeschool does this well by building strong family interconnections. In public school, your kids will be surrounded by kids from all manner of weak family situations, with the resulting moral and character consequences. If you’re not concerned that “bad company corrupts good character,” just remember that many missionaries over the years have ended up in cannibals’ cooking pot!

There are many positive reasons for homeschooling, and I am constantly explaining to others in the movement that we need to emphasize these, lest we appear to be cranky reactionaries who turn off people like you. I pray that your children get a good education and turn out to be devoted servants of the LORD in their own generation.


140. Suz
December 14, 2006
11:18 AM

“There are many positive reasons for homeschooling, and I am constantly explaining to others in the movement that we need to emphasize these, lest we appear to be cranky reactionaries who turn off people like you.”

LOL Bu…bu..but us cranky reactionaries want to be heard from, too!!

::sigh:: Would that I had been proactive rather than reactive….


141. Sarah
December 14, 2006
11:30 AM

I appreciate Chelsey Karns and other young people who weighed in from their own experiences - whether pro homeschool or pro ps. Those are valuable to me as a young mother and new homeschooler.


142. Andy
December 14, 2006
11:35 AM

In response to #98 (cf #113) -

If your children are being taught by those who are either opposed to Christ, or perhaps are a Christian who can’t speak of Christ then you are going to have serious problems when it comes to obeying Deut. 6. If Christ and His Word is to be the foundation and the substance of what we teach our children - regardless of the subject, if our the goal of educating our children is so that they can learn to glorify God in all things, then godless public schools will not and indeed cannot educate in this manner.

God is gracious and can protect our children and use them in whatever circumstances they are placed, but that doesn’t mean we should throw them into the lion’s den just to find out.

What is the purpose of education?
What has God declared to us in His Word concerning the substance and goal of education - either directly or indirecty?
Would the Israelites have willingly sent their children to study at the schools of the pagans around them? Do you think God would have approved?
Would you send your children to a Mormon, Wiccan, or Jehovah’s Witness School so that they can be missionaries? They would still get an education, right? If not, then why send them to atheistic schools?


143. Dallas Pymm
December 14, 2006
11:39 AM

Thanks Theologian and Andy for answering my questions. I think it was beneficial to to the why out. I really enjoyed your post Andy, you make some good points and a lot of sense. Thanks for the food for thought.


144. Kate
December 14, 2006
11:44 AM

“I think this is usually a rationalization that many use to justify their spending so little time with their children (I am NOT saying the one who wrote this is doing that). “

I’d tend to agree with Brian here. When it comes to kids, I think quantity is quality. The concept of quality time, in my understanding, didn’t really come around until after divorce became common and people had to justify being “weekend dads” by believing that at least they do fun things with their kids when they do see them.”

In response to Tim’s first comment on “quantity vs. quality” being a justification: Yes, I agree with you here. I hear many parents say this same type of thing as a justification for their selfish ambitions. I appreciate you, Tim, for not assuming I was using this as justification, because I really try to guard myself against this.

In response to the 2nd comment about quality being equal to quantity: I’m sorry to say that I do not agree with this in all circumstances. We all need a break sometimes, homeschooling or not. Spending every waking hour with my kids is exhausting and I have had several days (especially when my 3 kids were all under the age of 2) where I had spent all day with them, but it wasn’t beneficial to them or to me, nor did it glorify the Lord. And there have also been days when I was able to have someone care for the kids so that I could have a decent quiet time, clean my home, go to the doctor, go on a lunch date with hubby, and then come home and only spend 3-4 hours with my kids. 9 times out of 10, when I’ve had some time to fulfill other areas that God has called me to fulfill, then the quality of time is much, much better with my kids and they learn so much more from me. I’m certainly not suggesting that sending our kids to public school is the only way to accomplish this. Many homeschooling parents do have this and that’s great. Public school is what works for BOTH our children and us, as parents. But this subject varies person to person and family to family. Quantity and quality are great and for those families who are able to provide both, AWESOME! For many of us, it is a choice between the 2 on many days, so if I have to choose, I’m going with quality. Let me also add that if you can give your child quality, quantity, and all those things Tim mentioned in the post about missions and wordliness, then you need to write a book.


145. Kim
December 14, 2006
12:45 PM

I have done al three options for my kids- see the benefits of all three and homeschooling was exciting and a very special time. My only reservation is this : My experience. I believe everything that has been said in this article but my experience shows me this : Good Christian parents are losing their kids to the world at a stunning rate. i am seeing most of my friends , who had great kids before teen years losing them in tragic ways. Whether it is serious rebellion or just drifting in college to be liberal and universalist , it is sad and painful and seems to be the norm . The forces are overwhelming. Dont ever minimize the way satan is winning in this world. While I do not believe Hsing ensures this wil not occur, we need to be very thoughtful about all our kids are exposed to and seek to minimize it when they cannot developmentally or spiritually process and handle it.


146. HenningSam
December 14, 2006
12:49 PM

I believe the days where Chrsitians can send their children to public schools are over. I sounded like you Tim and sent my 2 daughters to public school. I was involved in all the activities. They attended FCA and bible studies. Well, at 20 & 24 neither one of them attend church and have adopted the ways of the world as truth. I did not see it coming as children tell parents what they want to hear. My youngest now admits to drug use and other things I never knew about. I feel responsible for allowing the brainwashing and placing them in harms way What fellowship has light with darkness? Interview a couple of honest high schoolers and they will tell you what’s really going on in the schools.


147. Terri
December 14, 2006
1:02 PM

I have a concern about the missions thing… We would never send children without parents to the mission field. For that matter, we would never send untrained adults to the mission field either. Children must be saved and trained in righteousness and evangelism before entering a mission field. Anything else would be disasterous. Remember the children’s crusade?

Jay from Cleveland reminded us of the proverb that says “bad company corrupts good character”. Think of good character as white gloves and bad company as mud. Does the mud become “glovy” or the gloves become “muddy”. Something to consider when we spend too much time “in the company of fools.”

I do not have a problem with you sending your kids to public school. If it is the best educational choice for your kids, then go for it. But be very careful to send them out as missionaries when they are so young and not properly trained.

God bless you in your decision and your responsibility of your children and their education. You sound like a very involved and careful parent. Press on!


148. Rebecca
December 14, 2006
1:06 PM

Tim, I hope that in future points you describe in more detail how public schooling is the best way to avoid worldliness. Frankly, I haven’t really seen that sort of result in the lives of the families that I know. In fact, one of the least wordly public schooling families that I know admit that one of the huge minefields of public schooling is the whole issue of worldliness —- and it has required a lot of effort on the parents part to counteract the huge wordly influence on their children.

As for missions —- I also hope you address the question of whether unsaved and unprepared people can act as missionaries. How do you train your kindergartners, for example, in missions? in apologetics? I’m not being facetious; I believe these are topics (avoiding worldliness, training our children in missions) that can transcend the “where to go to school” debate.

One of the problems faced by a public school family that I know is that they feel so constrained by time and find it difficult to offer really good worldview and apologetics training for their kids. Most church youth programs fall really short in this regard. These parents found that their kids, after doing all their homework, really didn’t want to sit down and study theology, comparitive religions, and how to share your faith. Who could blame them? This family has decided to send their kids off every summer for several weeks of such training. How are you handling this?

While I know one very mission-minded public school family, I have to admit that most of the mission-oriented families that I know tend to be homeschoolers. I think part of the issue is that, as some homeschoolers here have pointed out, families that homeschool generally have a lot more time together. It is certainly more “convenient” to equip and encourage children to evangelize, if you have them around you all day. Some of the families that I know spend that luxury of time by doing such mission activities as:

working in soup kitchens and homeless shelters
volunteering for a number of community efforts
street evangelism
neighborhood evangelism
hosting outreach events in the community
teaching neighborhood Bible studies
hosting foreign exchange students
visiting nursing homes
using drama and music evangelistically

Many homeschoolers are simply “salt and light” wherever they go in the community, whether it’s pursuing hobbies and interests, taking classes, teaching classes, acting as a docent, being involved in environmental clean-up efforts, or just being a good neighbor.

I think there is a misconception among many that homeschooled children are as sequestered as their public/private school counterparts. I know some parents do keep their homeschooled children as sheltered from the community at large during most of the day as do other parents, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule among the homeschoolers that I know.


149. Lynn
December 14, 2006
1:14 PM

Posted by Suz #135

>

I don’t know what city Suz lives in, but I live in the state capital here in SC. I don’t believe she was exaggerating because in our local paper, there was a link that showed the teaching certificates that have been suspended for various reasons, including sexually oriented reasons. In our old school district, a female teacher in the middle school our daughter would have gone to, was arrested for having sex with a student.

Nearly every week, in my local newspaper there is at least one article where a student has brought a weapon to school in any of the school districts in my city. This is not only high school either, this is also elementary school children. The high school that my 9th grade daughter would attend if she was not home schooled had an incident involving a 9th grade girl slashing another 9th grader’s neck with a razorblade. And this school is in a GOOD district. From August to October, there had been several incidents involving students bring weapons to school, as well as several fights. These are the kinds of social skills my children can do without.

Someone else mentioned Moms in Touch. I second that recommendation, and wanted to let you know that it isn’t only for public schools. It’s also for private schools, and home schools.


150. scott
December 14, 2006
1:49 PM

My entire education was through public schools. I learned more about sexual depravity through kids at church than I ever did in public school.


151. Suzanne Wilson
December 14, 2006
2:17 PM

Scott, comment 150:

“My entire education was through public schools. I learned more about sexual depravity through kids at church than I ever did in public school.”

Isn’t that statement a bit of a logical fallacy?

My entire education was via public education as well, and I learned very little about sexual depravity in school.

That has nothing to do with the dialogue, however.


152. zrim
December 14, 2006
2:25 PM

My background: reared in (upstanding yet) secularism/non-faith, product of public schools, college educated as a secondary teacher/have worked in the areas of education whole adult life, including teaching (currently in the area of standardized student assessments), converted in college into evangelicalism, rejected wider evangelicalism for the Reformed and confessional faith, have 2 children (one in PS, one in Christian pre-school/will attend PS), currently a deacon in a Dutch Reformed denomination in which Christian schooling is highly, highly valued, thus we are quite a minority within our community.

The missiological angle: this argument invariably surfaces when one hears why Christians send their kids to public schools. It is particularly strongest amongst those who are either Evangelical or strongly influenced by the stuff of Evangelicalism. It seems in keeping with what I consider an overemphasis on the Evangelical ethic of evangelism over against a more confessional ethic of nurture, thus when I hear confessional Christians using it I get confused. Others here have commented rightly when they say that the problem with such an argument is that it misses the point of education, namely to educate. The charge that all parents have is to their children’s best interests. When I consider where to send my kids it is based on where their best interests are served, not others’. It is not, as the missiological argument assumes, to be concerned with the plight of the unconverted. I do not send my kids to PS in order to be “salt and light to a dying world.” that tends to be a highly romantic view, in my estimation, and one that seems to misunderstand the Church’s primary charge to maintain the unfettered Gospel. And I am never quite sure how or why this argument evaporates when it comes to us adults. That is, we never seem to be charged with finding vocation in which our primary task is missiological, so I am not sure why children are charged with this task in their educational endeavors. The first thing I ask when considering my vocations in the wider world is not, “what’s the missiological value,” and I would hazard that most other Christian adults who make this argument as to why they send theirs to PS do not either—at least, I never seem to hear it. in my view, our vocational tasks are primary and whatever missiological charges we feel are simply secondary. Don’t read “secondary” as a veiled way of saying “not important,” but rather an appropriate way to see the correct ordering of things. I don’t send mine to PS in order to achieve missiological ends but to be educated. If they achieve missiological results along the way, great. But my first charge to them, and their first charge as they understand their role in God’s world, is to pursue the best course of education. If that means via PS, ok. if that means the local CS, ok. if the local Catholic school, ok. if that meant HS, ok. each has to decide, given his or her immediate circumstances, where the best place is for that charge to be duly carried out.

Couched within this argument tends to be, “what would happen to the place if Christians bugged out?” I am bothered by such statements because the suggestion seems to be that the world would somehow fall apart if we weren’t around. That smacks of a pretty high degree of narcissism. Fact is, things would probably hum along just fine. There is nothing magic about our very existence; we are not the glue of the social fabric, despite whatever high views we have of ourselves (which, I maintain, are simply a correct high view of God misapplied to His people). This argument tends to not comport so well with probably the strongest aspect of this little piece in which the author talks about the fact that worldliness lies within the human heart and is not an “us/them” or extrinsic phenomenon. Wherever you have people you will have worldliness—even in Christian schools! So if we believe that God’s common grace inheres in all people, that, as Paul argues in Romans, that the law of God is written upon the human heart, it does not necessarily follow that what “the world” needs is Christians in order to maintain any degree of righteousness. Take it from one who grew up in secularism: good people exist out here and do have templates for righteousness, even if they have no intention on acknowledging the correct Source of said template (1st commandment), or acknowledging Him correctly (2nd commandment). And take it from one who exists in a local community that is soaked in Christian education (Grand Rapids) that things are nowhere near perfect in those circles. What this view tends to perpetuate is the “Smucker’s Syndrome,” idea that as long as it as a certain label parents can be as lazy as they want (“with a name like Smucker’s (or Christian) it has to be good!”), that to do PS it’s ok as long as one is at the height of vigilance. This implies that while in the Christian realm one can sit back. It will be certain that such statements will be immediately protested, that “this is not the case.” But the implications, the meta-messages (those messages so very hard to pick up on) are just that. And i see it all the time, Christian parents who seem to think that it’s everyone else’s duty (church and school) to educate their child in God’s truth while they merely contribute an Amen. I catechize my children because I believe it is our ordination to do so, not the school and not the Church (God so ordained it because children naturally believe what their parents teach them, they are hard wired for it—not what Mr. Jones says during second period and not what Rev. VanderVanVan says. Those two figures carry weight, but no where near what a parent does).

As can probably be expected, I agree with other arguments that no form of education ought to be pursued out of some need to unnecessarily protect children. We all want to protect our children, of course, but when we do so out of a misguided sense of fear we don’t do very well at all.

zrim


153. Sheree
December 14, 2006
2:52 PM

As a mom of 7, including 5 adults in their 20’s, I would join with those who have recommended holding your educational plans lightly. As young parents in the 70’s my husband and I also looked into the future and thought we had it all planned out for our kids. Planning is good, but not without the recognition that we are not God. Only He sees the future clearly.

Young parents, whatever your current plans to educate your toddlers are, please cultivate the humility necessary to hold your plans lightly. God is faithful and your steps are in His hands…not your own.

I admire young parents today for wisely considering their numerous options rather than making an unthinking and unspiritual decision to just do what seems right. However, I also carry a concern that you could do what I too often did as a young parent…pridefully assume that decisions made today are a done deal for tomorrow. This can sadly develop into a stubborn unwillingness to consider options you once decided were “not for us.”

So make your plans in faith. But please consider the reality that your heart may change. Digging your heels in on issues now may make future changes in philosophy much more challenging than they need to be.

On many issues my husband and my convictions have only deepened over our nearly 30 years of parenting…but in other areas we’ve just had to acknowledge our propensity to pridefully think more highly of ourselves that we ought to have in our 20’s.

We still think too highly of ourselves at 50 something. So we’re saying more often now than ever….”If the Lord wills”….


154. Michael S. Morris
December 14, 2006
3:03 PM


Thursday, the 14th of December, 2006

I’m a homeschooling father of three children.
I am also (approximately) atheist. For what
it is worth, I am responding to you here
because your paragraph explaining the
weak/strong distinction is simply in
error. Either this is because the Bible you
read (Romans 14) is in error, or you extract
the wrong lesson from what you read.

In particular, I am not for one instant
either angry or hateful of you for choosing
to send your kids to public school. Nor do
I condemn you for it. I think the public
schools are very bad institutions in
general, and it might be the case, that
upon close study of your and your
children’s situation I could conclude you
can and should do better for them than
to send them to a public school. However,
I certainly believe homeschooling isn’t
for everyone, so it is quite possible
that even upon close scrutiny I would
agree that public schooling is the right
choice for you and yours. And, if I were
to disagree with your decision upon (hypothetical) scrutiny, it is simply
nonsense to think that that disagreement
would contain any anger or hate or
condemnation of you.

In my opinion, one of the most pernicious
beliefs on this planet is the belief
that disagreement implies either anger
or condemnation. It is impossible to
think (about anything that really
matters) without disagreement.

Mike Morris
(msmorris@netdirect.net)


155. Shauna
December 14, 2006
3:05 PM

Rebecca, thank you so much for that perspective about being mission-minded homeschoolers! There seems to be a misconception that “the mission field” and “public schools” are one and the same, so the only or best way for children or families to be indigenous missionaries is if they enroll their kids in a public school. We need to be mission-minded no matter where God has called us, and there are plenty of opportunities for touching nonbelievers’ lives even if our kids never sit in a classroom with them.


156. Van H. Edwards
December 14, 2006
3:27 PM

Juice,
Thanks for your reply. I understand your question better. I also had to go back and look at how Tim used the term “missionary”. What I think and hope that he’s saying is not that he’s sending his children to be commissioned missionaries in their school by themselves, but that as a family they would effectively be a witness to their own culture - including public school. I’m not sure that our Christian-eze term “missionary” also encompasses Christians that evangelize in their own home culture. Maybe it does, but I think that Christians who share the Gospel where they are should be called, well, “Christians”!
I’m not a paedo-baptist. And I don’t think a confession of faith can always be taken as true faith. That’s why I make the “silver bullet” comment.

Thanks again,
Van


157. Tim Challies
December 14, 2006
3:52 PM

Well, this has been fun, but I think it’s time to shut this one down. I don’t expect there to be a lot of meaningful discussion after 150+ comments so it’s time to put it to rest. Thanks to all who took the time to comment.