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Monday November 13, 2006

Books and Beliefs

Last month, in an article entitled By Our Books Shall We Be Known, I discussed some commentary Al Mohler wrote based on an essay that appeared in The Chronicle of Higher Education. The purpose of the article was, quite simply, to show that there is a lot you can tell about a person by the books in his library. Mohler said, “To a great extent, our personal libraries betray our true identities and interests. A minister’s library, taken as a whole, will likely reveal a portrait of theological conviction and vision. Whose works have front place on the shelves, Martyn Lloyd-Jones or John Shelby Spong? Charles Spurgeon or Harry Emerson Fosdick? Karl Barth or Carl Henry? John MacArthur or Joel Osteen?”

In recent days I have several times been asked by friends or readers of this site for my opinion on various churches, leaders or organizations. More and more I find myself encouraging people to look for two things: a statement of beliefs and a list of recommending reading. But I am coming to believe that you can often tell more about a person through a reading list than a statement of beliefs. Many churches have wonderful statements of faith that they choose to ignore. Very few have lists of recommended books that betray their true beliefs.

Statements of Faith are usually static documents and are somehow integrated into the history of a church or a denomination. They are, in many cases, rarely read or revisited. While they may retain historical value and while they may always be meaningful to a church, they do not necessarily continue to reflect the beliefs of the members or leaders of a church body. Look, for example, to the Beliefs page for the Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists. Under Lord’s Day it says, “The first day of the week is the Lord’s Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observances. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion both public and private and by refraining from worldly amusements and resting from secular employments work of necessity and mercy only being expected.” As someone who was once a member of one of these churches, I can attest that most Canadian Southern Baptists had no sense of Sunday being the Lord’s Day and that most did not refrain from either worldly amusements or secular employment! Whether or not this is a good thing is a whole different discussion. The point is that the statement of beliefs is far removed from the church’s actual practice and from the church’s enforcement of the document.

Now this is not to say that a statement of beliefs is a useless document. If a church continues to abide by the document, and continues to revisit it to ensure that their practice matches their profession, these documents are very useful. But too often they are of greater historical value than contemporary value. It is often equally or even more useful to look elsewhere to see what a church or leader really believes.

Let me give you an example. A short time ago I visited the web site of a Presbyterian church. This church is a member of the Presbyterian Church of America and would affirm the tenets of the Reformed faith and of Presbyterianism. According to the statement of beliefs, we would expect this to be a conservative church. Yet heading up the recommendations for books appropriate to seekers (a term that would be out-of-place in most Presbyterian lexicons!) was Donald Miller’s Blue Like Jazz. Try as I might, I cannot imagine John Knox or the Westminster Divines sitting placidly and reading this book. Nor can I imagine them discussing “seekers.” The books this church recommends are a dead giveaway that all is not right. I visited the site of a church planted by this one and noted that Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Church heads their list of recommendations and that excerpts from this book are quoted throughout the web site. Again, a book that seems strangely out of place in a Reformed, Presbyterian context.

I went to the web site of a prominent Christian leader and read his biography. I know that if he and I were to draw up a statement of beliefs, they would be quite similar. And yet in his list of recommended books for living the Christian life, alongside titles by John MacArthur, John Piper, Francis Schaeffer and the like are titles by Philip Yancey, Sally Morgenthaler, Thomas Kempis and others. How are we to reconcile books that would, in many ways, contradict each other? What are we to think about a person who would, without explanation or caution, endorse such books?

I don’t think I would have to look far to find many more examples. Countless churches here in Canada, especially churches of the Presbyterian variety, would have wonderful statements of faith. Many of them were founded on Reformed principles and would, in theory, still adhere to them. And yet many of these churches have forsaken the gospel and have completely walked away from the principles of the Christian faith, even while their statements of belief have remained untouched.

As I researched my own book last week, I found an interesting quote in Richard Phillips new commentary on Hebrews. “In my pastoral work,” he writes, “I often find it to be a good diagnostic question to ask for the names of books a person has read in the previous six months. The point is not to promote my own approved reading list, but to see whether the person is fixated on himself, her own wants or search for experiences, or whether he is interested in the character of God, the treasures of the gospel, or the challenges of representing Jesus Christ in the world.” It seems to me that the same is true of a Christian leader. By finding out what a person is reading and willing to recommend, by finding out the books a church considers worthwhile reading, or by discovering what books are in a church’s library, you may find far more useful information than if you read a statement of beliefs.

Comments (45) »


1. Peter Smythe
November 13, 2006
10:07 AM

Tim, I thought I’d put forward a comment about your comments about books. If you were to look over my bookshelves, you’d find books by N.T. Wright, D.R. McConnell, John MacArthur, and probably many others that do not “fit” into my theology. In my latest blogpost, I cite John Piper, William Mounce, Hank Hanegraaff, John MacArthur, and N.T. Wright and their interpretations of John 19:30, which, coincidently, are all the same. I do not see that their interpretations withstand scriptural scrutiny and I am demonstrating why on my own blog. In my mind, Christians who won’t consider that their “heros” might have missed it along the way pose some of the greatest dangers of scriptural error. Independent thinking ought to be viewed as virtue and not a vice.


2. Mark Johnston
November 13, 2006
10:50 AM

Tim,
I appreciate your comments concerning the recommendation of books by churches that would go against the grain of their statement of faith. If I had to guess about the PCA church you mentioned, I would guess that the average age of the congregation would be in their 30’s along with the pastor.


3. drliz
November 13, 2006
11:12 AM

Isn’t Canadian Southern Baptists an oxymoron…don’t they know they aren’t in The South (yes, capitalization is intended!), or the southern hemisphere, or even the southern northern hemisphere? Okay, now that I got that stupid thought out of my system…

Books bought (and assumingly read, though I’ve been guilty of buying faster than I can read) are not as indicative of beliefs as books recommended. Of course, on the whole, one’s total library would be more telling than mere ownership of any few selected titles.

But I do think it is instructive to read things you don’t agree with occassionally. It’s become too common in religion and especially politics to base an argument against something on second or third hand information. It weakens your ability to influence and argue your case persuasively.

Just pointing out that ownership does not equal endorsement (obviously, recommendations do indicate some degree of endorsement).

P.S. I’ve just started Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress, and I do recommend it…


4. Scott Zeller
November 13, 2006
11:15 AM

Tim,

I agree with you on the whole, but do you not think that any discerning reader will not only have in his collection the works of his heroes but also of his detractors? My thought is that if your library is only full of books you agree with then you are either 1) completely post-modern and universalist or 2) in danger of being dangerously imbalanced.

My bookshelf is not my statement of faith. It reveals a category of influence into what I hold to be true, but I think it is a mistake to put the two (SOF’s and bookshelves) as having the same objective ability to perceive what one believes. Because I have read “Surprised by the Voice of God” by Jack Deere does that mean I agree with his view of prophets in the common era? Of course not. But if you look at my bookshelf you may think so.

Again, I totally agree with you and think that what someone reads reveals a lot of who they are. But to me, I would be more impressed by looking at someones books, seeing a lot of diversity, and then in talking to them gain insight into how they bring it all together. Books can be a starting point to understanding someones beliefs, but to know someones beliefs we need to ask them! Not try and pull a Sherlock Holmes on their library.

SEZ


5. Scott Zeller
November 13, 2006
11:16 AM

@ Mark Johnston:

That is a silly comment.


6. Tim Challies
November 13, 2006
11:20 AM

Do note that this article discusses books that others recommend, not necessarily books that they own or have read. I read a lot of books that I wouldn’t recommend, and I think the same is true of most people.


7. Mark Johnston
November 13, 2006
12:04 PM

Scott,

The comment I made about the PCA church was made from an inside perspective. I was a Youth Minister in the PCA for ten years and I have been working for the PCA in their Christian Education Dept. for the past five years. I spend most of my time talking with PCA pastors, reading and researching on a daily basis. I do not share this with a prideful spirit, but, I’m not someone who just made a statement to get a reaction. I have no problem with leaders reading books from different perspectives. The concern I have is when a leader promotes a book that may have questionable theology and they do not give a warning to their reader. I could be wrong, but I think that is one of the points that Tim is trying to make in his post.

Thank you Tim for the insight you provide on a daily basis.


8. Jeri
November 13, 2006
1:13 PM

I think that you are exactly right. To anyone searching for a church I would say that this is the best way to tell where the pastor’s heart really is. Besides the fact that churches have drifted away from their original foundations is the fact that in the postmodern culture creeping in to churches, the words of a statement of faith may not mean to them what it means to you. Way to go, Tim!


9. DLE
November 13, 2006
1:49 PM

I have no problems recommending books I don’t agree with completely. Many good books have flaws and many bad books contain interesting ideas one might not ordinarily consider, but have merit nonetheless.

John MacArthur’s Charismatic Chaos is just such a book. MacArthur painted the lunatic fringe of the charismatic movement as the norm. That’s obviously a cheat on his part and damages much of what he says in the book. However, he makes excellent points that everyone should heed. Despite the fact that the book is deeply flawed and I ultimately disagree with his basic premise, his warnings are worth reading, especially by charismatics. I have no problems recommending that book, though I disagree with large parts of it.

People have noted on my blog that they don’t like the fact I recommend Dallas Willard’s The Divine Conspiracy. I know that your own church did a series based on the book and you found the series beneficial. Still, some of the people who complained to me couldn’t get over the fact I’d recommended “a new age guru” as one said.

That kind of thinking from people who hadn’t actually read the book makes Christians look stupid. We should be able to approach any book without fear because our God’s truth trumps anything the world has to dish out.

The question then becomes one of warning people that a book, while containing good ideas, may have harmful ones as well. If we trust that the Holy Spirit provides discernment to believers, then I’m not certain we must point out every little jot and tittle that discomfits us. If forced to do that, I’m not sure I’d be able to include ANY books at all in my sidebar. None of us has the time to cover every point of contention. But neither should we! That’s one of the reason the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

In short, every book has issues. No matter what the book, no matter the author, we must always read with discernment. If we keep that in mind, we do well.


10. Cody W
November 13, 2006
2:00 PM

I guess my question after reading your post would be how much of a book do you have to agree with to be able to recommend it? Also to answer that question you would have to ask who you are recommending the book to.

I guess for me I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt that they can read books written by humans and know they are not perfect.


11. Mark
November 13, 2006
2:00 PM

Peter and Scott,

I’m glad you made those comments.

Tim,

You’re article smacks of religious elitism. Why dismiss books by people like Warren and Yancey? There has to be a recognition of people of your type there are believers who are at various stages in their walks with God. Some are spiritually young, some mature. Obviously, you are the mature one. You should be so gracious and compassionate as to be mindful that there are others who are not like you. Do you not agree? Some books help some to grow closer in their walk with God, some don’t - it depends on the person and where he is at. This is reality.


12. Scott Zeller
November 13, 2006
2:21 PM

@ Tim Challies:

I hear you that there is a difference between owning a book and recommending it. I do think those lines are fuzzied though when we start using the category of books to be a primary litmus test into understanding a persons beliefs.

I take your point in this post to be that the books someone does or does not recommend can provide additional insight into that persons belief and practice that may not be readily apparent. I agree with that, completely.

My thought is just a qualifier that it is very easy in this discussion to muddy the waters between books recommended and books owned, and the respective values of statements of faith and libraries (as if such things were set out to communicate the same things in the first place).

I’m really not trying to be argumentative or significantly detract from your post and I certainly don’t mean to accuse you of posturing as a religious elite! But just as we can not judge a book by its cover, we certainly ought to exercise caution when attempting to judge a person by which book covers we find in their proximity.

@ Mark Johnston:

I still think your comment was silly. As if individuals in their 30’s were handicapped in their ability to lead a church, minister to their peers, or read a book. I can point to any number of churches (yes, even PCA ones) with suspect book recommendation tables that are entirely peopled with geriatrics. We all need to hear Challies thoughts on this topic regardless of our age.


13. Doug
November 13, 2006
2:35 PM

If you look at Tim’s reviews, he may point out some of the trends that one author or another will display, but the review is always based on what that author had to say and upon what basis.

In most cases, the books he reviews are written by people who should be the mature ones, not Tim. (1 Timothy 3:6) Most of the authors, though not all, are pastors and elders, which means they are to be the sort of person to be a model for others. (Titus 2:7)

Elders are held to a higher standard, and are prone to additional reward in Heaven. They also will be held accountable for the way they fed the flock of God. If they are to keep suspect teaching in their own church, that is one thing. If they decide to feed another undersheperd’s flock the same suspect teaching, that is another.

I find it hard to imagine that pointing out inconsistencies in a suggested reading list makes one an elitist. I also am saddened that any pastor would display such an inconsistent list of reading materials for those under him.


14. Bill Kinnon
November 13, 2006
3:49 PM

“The books this church recommends are a dead giveaway that all is not right.”

Wow, Tim. Let me say I’m in shock. You’ve passed judgment on a church you’ve never been to based on the book list. A church pastored by someone in their early forties, in case anyone really cares (not that it’s pertinent to the discussion) - a pastor who may not qualify as a TR, but one who is solidly reformed. I know, I have coffee with him on a weekly basis.

You are welcome to join us, Tim. You’ll hear us strongly discuss our differences in theology. Me from my egalitarian/Arminian position, he from his complimentarian/Reformed position. (Perhaps you’d be happier if he called me a semi-Pelagian and had nothing to do with me.) You will also hear us talk about the work of the Holy Spirit in people’s lives. An excitement about what God is doing in our fair city, in spite of the incredible darkness. A willingness to accept each other as brothers, in spite of our strong theological differences. A commitment to work together for the cause of Christ.

But to you, Tim, “all is not right.” Let me suggest that “all is not right” with any of us. When you get up in the morning, Tim, I doubt you look in the mirror and say, “Thank God I have an exclusive knowledge of truth and can separate perfectly right from wrong.” Enough of your humility comes through on this blog to suggest you aren’t that arrogant. But you’ve chosen to sit in judgment on a church based on its book recommendations. Have you spoken with the pastor, since it would be a local call for you? Have you expressed your concern directly? And if not, why is it ok to express your opinion on the wellbeing of the church here.


15. Mark
November 13, 2006
4:31 PM

This is my last response but this article has bothered me to the point to post a second response. What I ultimately find dismaying are articles such as these that are pointless. Is the goal of one’s life to get to heaven and be able to brag to God that the only thing my life had to offer was that I was doctrinally pure? Is it to brag to God that I did my best as the gatekeeper from preventing theologically-incorrect doctrine from entering the church? Brothers, differences in theological leanings will occur because our minds and hearts are fallen; we are all sinners. Last I checked, we as saved ones were called to fulfill the great commission and to advance the church in our local respective areas; not wasting such precious, God-given time posting friendly-fire, ivory-tower articles that needlessly cut down on authors who are doing their best to fulfill the same great commission.


16. John Dekker
November 13, 2006
4:42 PM

But even if we stick to recommendations - what is wrong with recommending books that contradict each other? To think that this will confuse them is to insult their intelligence - rather it leads them to discover the truth.

As it happens, I would think that Yancey and a Kempis are both very helpful for living the Christian life - they’d certainly be on my recommended list.


17. DLE
November 13, 2006
4:44 PM

One other thing to remember:

No one liked what the prophets had to say, either.


18. Mark
November 13, 2006
4:49 PM

DLE

I have to point out there are some glaring, faulty logic that you’re using in your comments. Just because there are some people that disagree with Tim does NOT equate to the idea that he is some kind of prophet. For example, I do NOT agree with the belief statements made by other world religions. According to your line of reasoning, would that make them prophets? Obviously, I think not…


19. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 13, 2006
5:08 PM

Wow, Tim. Let me say I’m in shock. You’ve passed judgment on a church you’ve never been to based on the book list.

Bill, I think you are missing the point. Anyone who has visited various church web sites and read their statements of faith, and then compared those statements to the actual teachings and practices knows all too well that the statements of faith page is pretty much meaningless in many instances.

But you’ve chosen to sit in judgment on a church based on its book recommendations. Have you spoken with the pastor, since it would be a local call for you? Have you expressed your concern directly? And if not, why is it ok to express your opinion on the wellbeing of the church here.

Did I miss something? Did Tim mention this church by name? I know he provided a link to the CCSB, but I did not noticed where he specifically mentioned a church by name. Perhaps, Bill, you are taking this a little too personally rather than listening to what Tim is saying.

I have personally compared enough church statements of faith with their book recommendations and actual teaching to know that what Tim is saying should hold true most every time.

The church my wife and I left after eight years has a solid statement of faith, yet they are so worldly in their approach to worship, so numbers driven in their quest for growth, so apparently afraid to teach the whole counsel of God, that their statement of faith is virtually meaningless.


20. Edward
November 13, 2006
5:22 PM

Though I agree with the premise that many Christian books contain dangerously non-biblical doctrines, I also believe that we as Reformed Christians should not be so quick to criticize them. Even if more “liberal” theologians may not realize or acknowledge it, we as Christians are all united by a common binding: the gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. Those of us who abide in Sola Scriptura should prayerfully make the effort to reach out to our more “culturally-relevant” brothers in a humble attempt to correct them and to redirect their teachings towards a “Christ-centered, God-exalting, Bible-saturated” theology. After all, even Joel Osteen has some excellent points in Your Best Life Now that has the potential to be very gospel-centered: “you should give thanks to God for the gifts and blessings you already have.” What an amazing day it will be when this sentenced is capped off with the phrase “and that gift is Jesus Christ.”


21. Dan MacDonald
November 13, 2006
5:52 PM

Tim,
I enjoyed your site today, as usual. So I thought I would join your cnversation.

I do believe I am the pastor of that PCA church whose web page you visited. And yes, I did recommend Donald Miller to seekers, and no, I do not embrace all of Donald’s theology - just as I do not embrace all of C.S. Lewis’s theology, or Newbeggin, or Wolf, or even Piper - yet I recommend all of them be read by different people. Donald Miller is a gifted writer who does a superb job of changing perceptions about Christians. And that is what I recommend him for, not his overall theology. Most seekers are so a-thelogical and anti-religious that, whatever dross Donald Miller’s book may contain, they are too unskilled to appreciate. It took me several years of theological and biblical grounding to be able to discern the kind of problems you seem to find so glaring in Blue Like Jazz. Maybe you’re just smarter than me or my unchurched congregants, but my knowledge of them leads me to believe that Miller - or Lewis - will not lead them astray. If he does, I am there to help shepherd them back.

So here is why I do this:

Part of the church’s task today is to attack at a presuppositional and existential level the misconceptions that people have about Christianity, as well as the propositional level of falsehood. So the war for the hearts and minds of people is waged at the intellectual, volitional and emotional fronts. From God’s perspective, of course, all of this is under His sovereign merciful providence, and all is known, and the war is won. But I am not God, and I do not have his infinite wisdom and knowledge. So I aim my artillery at all these fronts. Miller is a good weapon on some of these fronts. Lewis is more intellectually cogent, Miler more aesthetically and existentially disarming.

But you are right: something is wrong here. From a reformed perspective, where are the Reformed books that can compare with Mere Christianity or BLue Like Jazz? Is it possible that we reformed people can benefit from the works of non-reformed people - and that seekers can as well? It does seem to me that God tends to bless people with evangelistic gifts - and some of them are not reformed. So some of the best evangelistic works out there are by people whose overall theology we must depart from at many levels.

My job as pastor is to help people at both the ontological and phenomenological levels - to take them as they are and then lead them to the Cross. So I take people who profess to be seekers at their word, though I know that only God seeks, and ‘there is none righteous, not even one; there is no one who seels for God.’

But to those who come to me and call themselves seekers, I give them the courtesy of using the term, though I will endeavour to correct them when they are ready to understand the fulness of God’s grace in superintending every aspect of their journey to the Cross, and from it.

Now, just so you know, I have stopped using the word seeker in my sermons, because I find it too disingenuous to do so. My favorite term for the unbeliever is ‘skeptic’, or ‘curious’. Sorry, but ‘reprobate’ is not gonna happen.

On the other hand, I have come to realize this much about our web page. It is not just to our little flock of sheep that this web page speaks. It speaks to all of the web community. And maybe in my web page I need to think of that broader community, and especially my beloved Reformed brethren and sisters who, like yourself, may have cause to be discouraged by my book list. It is hard trying to be irenic, gospel-centered, reformed and missional. You’re always ticking somebody off.


So I think I am going to go have dinner and ponder my book list, my small flock, the providence of God in leading me to see this page before dinner on my day off, and maybe I’ll revise a few things.

Hope to meet you sometime, Tim - or even have a conversation with you, since apparently we aren’t even long distance. Thanks for your ministry.

Cheers,

Dan MacDonald


22. lisa4given
November 13, 2006
6:03 PM

This reminds me of the criteria my husband and I used whenever we would move or know that we were moving to an area and will be looking for a church.

We like to find out about a church 3 ways.
1. We start by seeing if they have a website because alot of questioned can be answered there. (but not all questions)
2. We talk to the pastor over the phone (one time we found a website that looked GREAT except when we called the pastor and found out that the original pastor had left. I asked for the pastor thinking i was talking to the secretary, but I was actually talking to the pastor who was a woman. Which most who have visited my site know that I embrace true Biblical womanhood)
3. Visit the church. (We found a church on the web that looked great, the conversation with the pastor went extremely well… but there was a sign above the sanctuary that said children were not allowed in there)

As far as the questions we ask the pastor when doing the phone interview, 2 of the questions are “What books do you recommend? What book besides the Word of God are you reading right now?”

There are several other questions we ask, but those relate to this post. We also like to get ahold of a sermon tape or listen to their sermons online if they have that option. We prefer expositional preaching and really like to see how they handle Romans.


23. Scott Zeller
November 13, 2006
6:27 PM

@ Pastor Macdonald:

“From a reformed perspective, where are the Reformed books that can compare with Mere Christianity or BLue Like Jazz?”

Excellent question.

And thanks for your input into this. Very humble and reasonable. Its easy to sensationalize things on a blog and I appreciated your gentle spirit as you gave some more background on how you think through such issues.

Don’t have anything to add, just wanted to say thanks for taking the time.


24. Dan MacDonald
November 13, 2006
7:55 PM

Thanks, Scott, for the encouragement. Thanks, Tim, for creating such a stimulating discussion- and not mentioning us by name. Thanks, Bill, for defending me (that’s when I knew it was our web page!) and being a friend. A very enlightening discussion on all sides- I felt sharpened by it.

Any other thoughts and constructive ideas regarding our web page, you can email me directly:
dan@gracetoronto.ca

SDG

Dan


25. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 13, 2006
9:00 PM

Maybe you’re just smarter than me or my unchurched congregants

Dan,
This is borderline sarcasm and does not come across very well. Just thought you would want to know.

So the war for the hearts and minds of people is waged at the intellectual, volitional and emotional fronts.

Isn’t the war for the hearts and minds of people waged at the spiritual front?

My favorite term for the unbeliever is ‘skeptic’, or ‘curious’. Sorry, but ‘reprobate’ is not gonna happen.

How about using the term, ‘unbeliever’? Just curious, but what is wrong with the term ‘reprobate’?


26. Jeri
November 13, 2006
9:56 PM

One more thing to say…Tim, I re-read your review of Blue Like Jazz from awhile back, and if you remember, your review began on a more positive note than it ended, which you were aware of and commented on. I think that maybe as you talked through the book the errors became more clear to you. I mention this because I think that this stuff can be strangely seductive, even to the most discerning among us, even if just briefly. Didn’t Paul call it “doctrines of demons?” We should never recommend such reading to anyone, Christian or unbeliever. Why would we do that? For those of you who are attracted to this sort of book/author/personality, I recommend you prayerfully read what the New Testament has to say about false teaching, which is mainly characterized by its deceptiveness.


27. Rey (Probably A Heretic)
November 13, 2006
11:16 PM

I’ve recommended (and own) plenty of books that I don’t agree with specifically for the purpose of rounding off one’s thinking. The recommendations nor the owning of the books outlines what the person believes. Heck, what they say doesn’t outline what they believe.

Your statement of faith is pronounced in the way you act.


28. Dr Mike
November 13, 2006
11:19 PM

Great: Evangelical Library Police.

What is the fear and/or paranoia regarding “unacceptable” books? God forbid that we become knowledgeable of other viewpoints or even - away with the thought! - reconsider some of our own sacred cows and Protestant popes.

Truth is not the sole possession of the Reformed; the Reformed is not without its falsehoods and errors. No denomination or school of theology has the a full and complete understanding of the mind of God. If one is not willing to admit to the fallibility of their own theological positions, then they are in serious trouble.


29. Dr Mike
November 13, 2006
11:28 PM

I should add to

“not willing to admit the fallibility of their own theological positions”

the corresponding statement,

“and profit from the insights, wisdom, and - even - truth of other parts of the Body of Christ, then …”

There: that should do.


30. Ross
November 13, 2006
11:50 PM

We may not pray for the Pope, who is the great antichrist and son of perdition; neither may we pray for, but against Babylon, especially after the people of God are out of her. We are bidden pray for our enemies, but not for the malicious, incorrigible enemies of Christ. - Samuel Rutheford

This unfortunately goes for many protestant leaders of our day, what they espouse is a different gospel. Many books come out of Babylon, so to endorse them is truly a scary sign. Although it does say the elect may even be deceived in the latter days (Mat. 24:24)


31. Ross
November 14, 2006
12:12 AM

Sorry, Quote from above was by George Gillespie not Samuel Rutherford, considering it is a 400 year old quote, I’m sure he would not mind.


32. Steve
November 14, 2006
2:42 AM

I find a difficutly in the interpretation that a minister, or church leader can be catagorized by his selection of books. Well, that is not really correct. You could catogorize one, who had a specific series of books by a specific series of authors that all believed the same thing, and thus gave identity to the belief the specific minister or christian believed in.
But I understand that some variations of scripture rely upon the specific belief, and supporting preachers to gird its continuation….regardless of scriptural deviation. That only in supporting itself thru secular study that purports itself as scripture…while denying vast portions of the same…can those ideologies be sustained.

So, in that vein…you are correct…a preacher’s library may support the assertion that it reflects the beliefs of the man. But where there are no books…to whom do you go?


33. Just wondering
November 14, 2006
3:08 AM

Does the blog writer himself have anything to say?


34. Ed Brenegar
November 14, 2006
6:05 AM

Tim,
May I suggest that the perspective you offer here is not a biblical one, but one derived from the Enlightenment’s philosophy that all can be made rational, including booklists. It is the particular tragic flaw of us Reformed and Presbyterian believers that order, structure and rationality supercede reality. If you look at my book shelves, you could make the claim that I am lost in a conflict between the sacred and the secular. And my answer would be, not so much lost, but wandering with my God through the endless diversity of human attempts to make sense of the world. If you only read that which validates what you already believe, then most likely you never grow beyond that point in time when the reading of theological books became important. For most of us that was college. As a church consultant, I find two trends that mark this point for me. One is the question asked by all ages in every type of church, “Where is God in my life and the world?” They are not asking confessional questions so much as experiential questions. It is not simply an intellectual question but a personal, a social one or a question of reality. The other is how to keep the church the way it was when I was young. Or better understood with the question, “Are you best years as a church ahead of you or behind you?” This too crosses every generation. Our hubristic assumption is that we know what the true church is. I suggest that the true church is found not in book lists, nor in our confessions, nor our individual denominational structures, but in those relationships of worship, fellowship and service that are brought together by God’s Spirit. So, the real choice becomes are we a museum of memories book shop or are we an organic community of relationships held together and empowered by the Holy Spirit? The choice we make determines the judgments and decisions that we make as well. This is not an academic or purely intellectual question, but one that will ultimately determine the future of the church in the West.


35. Mick Porter
November 14, 2006
6:19 AM

Tim,

Certainly something worth thinking about!

Now, if I recommend Mahaney and Macarthur, Grudem and Gaffin, do you think I’m charismatic or cessationist? What about if I recommend Carson, Newbigin and Shank - do you reckon I’m Reformed or not?

I do agree that the recommendation of certain books can be a dead giveaway for a certain doctrinal position, but by the same token I’d say it’s no wonder the denominational groups get more and more entrenched/inbred in their thinking when such a “discerning” attitude is taken.

I posted about this issue recently; particularly the fact that of the huge pile of books we were given at T4G there didn’t seem to be a single thing on social justice. When the right won’t touch anything by an author on the left, the right will never have a hope to reach the center - they will stay on the right.

Some of the most brutally challenging books to my life have been from way liberal authors - but I have to hear what they say, and the church has to hear what they say. Because publishing ministries whose marketing comprises lovely photos of leather chairs and big oak desks and other super-consersative middle-class Western white stuff will likely never quite give you the full picture.

Yours in Christ, Mick


36. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 14, 2006
8:17 AM

One thing that seems to get lost in a discussion like this is the primacy of Scripture, and what it says on the subject of what to do/how to consider those who promote error and falsehood. Where does Paul exhort his readers to broaden their horizons to include those who put forth clearly unbiblical doctrines, or worldly perspectives, or Jesus that is not the same one of the Bible? Where is Paul’s admonition to read or study the works of ‘the other side’?

Am I a second class saint if I don’t care to devote time to read the works of Warren, Osteen, Wright, Eldridge, Yancey, Miller, etc? Am I a first class saint if I do?

In 2 Timothy, Paul instructs Timothy to be diligent to present himself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be shamed, accurately handling the word of truth. He then tells Timothy to avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness.

Where is the instruction to be equally read in works that both agree with Timothy’s theology and works that do not?

To know the true truth, a disciple must be able to rightly handle the word of truth, not be well read over a broad spectrum of beliefs and theologies and various interpretations of the person and work of Christ.


37. Hayden Norris
November 14, 2006
9:10 AM

Tim,

Good, though provoking article. One thing I would like to add is that when we look at a church’s doctrinal statement and by-laws, often we are peering into “challenges” they have had in the past. That is why I believe it is important that the church also have a “philosophy of ministry” (Or, I perfer to call it a theology of ministry) to show the direction of the church in implementing the doctrinal statement.

Also, I agree mostly with the point about reccomended books. I guess I would only put books on our church website that I felt reflected teaching that was consistent with our doctrinal statement. (I do have a CJ Mahaney book reccomended and I am a “cessasionist”, but the book is on humility not “the sign gifts”) I might personally reccomend a book to another believer on a one-on-one basis that I did not believe was “solid” and discuss some of those thoughts with them. This is much different!

But would I put a book by Bart Ehrman on my reccomended reading list for those wanting to talk about “how we recieved the text of Scripture”? The answer would be a NO!


38. Tim Challies
November 14, 2006
9:14 AM

I’ve held back a little bit, and have enjoyed reading the comments. I am honestly surprised that there is any controversy here at all, so I must have done a poor job of expressing what I was trying to say.

The purpose of my article was, I thought, quite simple. A church posts a list of recommended read in a public place and thus recommends those titles to anyone who happens to visit the site. In most cases there will be more non-members than members visiting the web site. Thus a potential “seeker” could come by a site, see that list, and head out to buy the books recommended. It seems to me that the leadership of the church needs to be able to stand behind these books since they have no ability to explain their choices or provide any kind of disclaimer. So in the example I mentioned, a person could visit the church’s site, pick up Blue Like Jazz and assume, quite reasonably, that the church endorses the book and what is taught in it. From what I know of Blue Like Jazz (and yes, I have read it) it is not the kind of book that is all that consistent with Reformed theology. Hence it seems out-of-place in a PCA church. I may have overstated things to say “all is not right” and will beg forgiveness for not being more precise in that regard.

Dan said “From a reformed perspective, where are the Reformed books that can compare with Mere Christianity or BLue Like Jazz?”

I don’t know that this is relevant to the topic at hand. It may well be that similar books are difficult to find, but I don’t know that this backs us into the corner of having to recommend Blue Like Jazz. (Perhaps something like Common Grounds would be helpful?).


39. Dan MacDonald
November 14, 2006
9:38 AM

Tim,

Thanks for the recommendation- I will check out Common Grounds.

Dan


40. Tim Challies
November 14, 2006
9:40 AM

Dr. Mike said: “What is the fear and/or paranoia regarding “unacceptable” books? God forbid that we become knowledgeable of other viewpoints or even - away with the thought! - reconsider some of our own sacred cows and Protestant popes.”

Did you read the article? The purpose was not to disuade people from reading books, but to suggest that we need to be careful what books we recommend. There is a vast difference.


41. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 14, 2006
9:45 AM

The purpose was not to disuade people from reading books, but to suggest that we need to be careful what books we recommend. There is a vast difference.

Excellent summary.


42. Susan Albers
November 14, 2006
10:29 AM

Tim,

I, too, was surprised by the controversy sparked by your comments. One does not need to be ‘elitist’ to recognize that the average Christian bookstore is littered with ‘junk food for the mind’. Early in my Christian walk, I depended heavily on my pastor’s reading recommendations and also on yours. I am extremely grateful for both.

By the way, here is the list of recommended reading from this week’s newsletter at our church. Our pastor is doing a series on ‘The Christian Mind and the Development of Western Thought’.

Your Mind Matters by John Stott
Escape from Reason by Francis Schaeffer
The God Who is There by Francis Schaeffer
Love Your God With All Your Mind—The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul by J.P. Moreland
Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey
True Spirituality by Francis Schaeffer
The Mark of the Christian by Francis Schaeffer

Keep up the good work, Tim.


43. barlow
November 14, 2006
2:14 PM

When I was first married, I spent a lot of time trying to make my skeptical father in law into a conservative Calvinist. Only 10 years later (and a lot of regretful conversations under my belt) has it really sunk in that were he to become as orthodox as Donald Miller we would, for sure, would be brothers in Christ - a much improved situation. And so I say recommend anything Christian to seekers - who cares if we make Calvinists right off the bat? Well, apparently a lot of people do…


44. michael
November 15, 2006
8:33 AM

I found it interesting reading Iain Murray’s musings on being a bit over-zealous with weeding his library when he discovered the reformers and puritans. See his ‘The Old Evangelicalism,’ pgs 137-8. Though it is related, it is distinct from what books you’d recommend to a young Christian or a non-Christian. Cheers.


45. diablaazul
November 15, 2006
1:09 PM

Tim,

Is it your position that a Christian should only recommend books that s/he agrees with?