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08/02/07
Comments (92)

Wrestling with Evolution

Christians are accustomed to treating evolution as an account of the world’s origins that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and something that a person could only believe in the absence of God or in the absence of faith. But this is not quite fair. There are now many Christians—Christians who treasure the Bible and who affirm the truths of the historic Christian faith—who do believe that the evidence for evolution is too compelling to ignore. It is telling that, as far as I can see, the vast majority of Christian scientists (not to be confused with Christian Scientists) hold to evolution. In the face of modern science, those of us who still cling to a literal six day creation may seem to be increasingly stubborn and outdated. Certainly the world perceives us this way. So, too, today, do many in the church. There is very real pressure to conform.

The stakes are high. As Christians we believe that God is honored when we honor the truth. Hence if God did not create the world from nothing in six literal days, we dishonor God by clinging tightly, even in the face of evidence, to a view that is wrong. Of course the opposite is also true. If God did create the world in six days, we dishonor Him by believing in evolution. Only one view can be right.

In his book The Language of God, Francis Collins, who identifies himself in the book as an evangelical Christian, neatly divides the realm of science and the realm of faith. Faith is given to answer ultimate questions about meaning and purpose where science is God’s way of speaking about the physical world. He sees a complete harmony between them. Collins says there are four options when we consider possible responses to the interaction of the theory of evolution and belief in God.

The first is atheism and agnosticism which he describes as science trumping faith. In this view people place their ultimate trust in science and have little to offer when it comes to ultimate questions about meaning and purpose.

The second is Creationism and he describes this as faith trumping science. He says that if the views of creationists are true, “it would lead to a complete and irreversible collapse of the sciences of physics, chemistry, cosmology, geology and biology.” “Ultra-literal” interpretations of Genesis are wrong and must be adapted to fit with what science tells us. Collins makes no distinction between “old earth” and “young earth” Creationists. There are, after all, some Christians (and though I am not among them I do have some sympathy for their beliefs) who would hold to something a little bit different than a six day creation, believing that God has created ex nihilo (i.e. out of nothing) and that He has been doing so progressively over millions or billions of years. He created man ex nihilo 6,000 or 10,000 years ago almost as described by a literal reading of the first few chapters of Genesis. Collins does not distinguish because he feels evolution is simply to clear to ignore and whether we believe in an old earth or a young earth, to ignore evolution is folly. Evolution and divine non-intervention are the keys, not the age of the earth.

The third option is Intelligent Design, which tries to find harmony but which does so only by looking for areas science cannot explain. As science progresses it inevitably finds a way to explain these gaps, thus keeping Intelligent Design advocates always scrambling and always on the defensive. While I enjoy reading of the world of these people, I find Intelligent Design an unsatisfying explanation for reasons I may discuss at another time.

The final option is theistic evolution or what Collins prefers to call “BioLogos.” This is the view he holds to and the view of an increasing number of Christians. This belief rests of the following premises:

  1. The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago.
  2. Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life.
  3. While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, once life arose, the process of evolution and natural selection permitted the development of biological diversity and complexity over very long periods of time. Collins seems to hold that life arose naturally (or at least that it could have arisen naturally) and not through supernatural intervention.
  4. Once evolution got under way no special supernatural intervention was required.
  5. Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes.
  6. But humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature. This includes the existence of the Moral Law (the knowledge of right and wrong) and the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history.

I think these six points accurately summarize what most theistic evolutionists believe. I don’t have an exhaustive list of Christians who are theistic evolutionists, though some of the names I’ve heard are a bit surprising to me. But as I said at the outset, the names do include many Bible-believing Christians.

As for me, I am still an old-fashioned, out-dated, six day Creationist. My reasoning is simple: I believe we have to give the position of supremacy to the Bible. While I certainly admit that the Bible is not meant to be a scientific textbook, if we affirm its inerrancy we need to believe that where it does comment on science, it does so truthfully. Thus, until it can be proven to me otherwise, the creation of the world, as outlined in the Bible, is meant to be read literally and accepted as fact. Further, the creation of the world is not merely a scientific question but also a theological one, so it is not something we can consign entirely into the realm of science. Thus we have to arrive at a solution that is consistent with both science and Scripture, all the while knowing that we are imperfect and our eyes are clouded by our limitations. Where science and Scripture clearly disagree, we must hold fast to God’s Word. And to this point that is where my conscience has directed me.

There are several areas where I feel theistic evolutionists allow science to trump Scripture and I’d like to point out just four of them. Francis Collins is certainly no theologian and, unfortunately, does not address these in his book. I really would be glad to receive recommendations for a book written by a conservative Christian explaining how we can reconcile science with Scripture in these points and others.

First, if we decide that the biblical account of creation is simple allegory or a metaphorical description of what actually took place, how are we to determine where allegory ends and reality begins? If the description of the creation of the world is either just a vague metaphor for what actually happened or perhaps some kind of allegory, where do we determine that historical narrative actually begins? Certainly we cannot read much into the fact of God resting on the seventh day. We have to see that God did not create Adam from the dust of the ground and did not form Eve from Adam’s rib (putting to rest the age-old controversy of whether or not they had belly buttons). Was there a literal tree of life and tree of the knowledge of good and evil or were these, too, mere metaphor? Did God really create Eve specifically to be Adam’s helper or did woman arise by the process of evolution? Were gender roles part of God’s creation or did they arise only through natural selection? Was there a serpent who tempted Adam and Eve? Did they really eat fruit God told them not to eat? Was there a real Garden of Eden? Did Adam and Eve really get banished from it? Was there really a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life? Did God really create Adam and Eve clothes (foreshadowing the death of Christ in the death of the animal He used to cover them) to cover their nakedness? And finally, do we not see throughout the Bible that the other authors seem to understand the Biblical account of creation in a very literal way? It seems to me that the metaphorical reading of the first few chapters of Genesis if fraught with peril. This, in itself, is not a sound argument as much as it is a caution. Those who hold to theistic evolution tread upon portions of the Bible that are absolutely foundational to our faith.

While I will admit that this next argument, an extension from the last, may fall into the realm of fallacy, I will state it anyways. Is there not a danger in handing someone a Bible and saying, “It is important to note that the first three chapters you read really aren’t meant to be taken literally!”? Does it seem likely that God would give us His description of the world’s origins in a way that, by most measures, seems to be meant literally, when in reality it is merely figurative? What are the wider implications of reading these early chapters in a way that is less than literal?

Second, the Bible tells us that Adam, as the first man, stands as our federal head. He represented us before God in such a way that when he fell into sin, so did we. The Bible makes it clear that this position was assigned by virtue of Adam’s position as the first man. If we hold to evolution we have no way of knowing if, how or why Adam is our federal head. Was he perhaps the first person who was truly a sentient being? Was he the first person to whom the moral law was given? Did God somehow intervene in his life to give him something that made him human while the rest of the species went on as animals? We are forced to believe that God somehow chose Adam out of the mass of humanity (or near humanity) and conferred on him a special privilege. While this is something God is known to do (think of Abraham as an example) this is certainly not clear from the Bible. In fact, I don’t know that anyone would have thought of this until evolution began to make us rethink Genesis. We would also do well to consider the implications to the federal headship of Christ, the Second Adam.

Third, how did the fall into sin actually happen? I touched on this in the first point, but if we believe in evolution, it is difficult to then believe that the story of man’s fall into sin happened exactly as the Bible describes it. And so I ask, how did sin come into the world? And how can we explain its pervasiveness?

And finally, was there death before Adam? Romans 5:12 says that death entered the world through the sin of Adam. “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…” Yet evolution is impossible without death (and without death being an agent of good, rather than evil, for death causes the stronger to supplant the weaker, driving the innately beneficial process of natural selection). So did death really enter the world through Adam or was there death already? And is death a curse, as the Bible says, or is death also a good and necessary force that causes the stronger to survive?

I have found these four questions (or series of questions) impossible to reconcile with Darwinian evolution. Thus I have to give supremacy to the Bible. Am I asking you to answer these questions? Not necessarily, though if you have answers or can refer me to a place that they’ve been answered satisfactorily I would be interested in the learning experience. In the meanwhile, I’m content to continue believing that God created the world, from nothing, in six days, and that He did so not too long ago. My understanding of Scripture and my love for it just doesn’t allow me any other option.

Wrestling with Evolution

Comments (92) »


1. Ian Clary
August 2, 2007
10:55 AM

Hey Tim, Great post - thanks for this. I’d recommend to you Vern Poythress’ recent book by Crossway called “Redeeming Science.” Very, very good. I’d be interested in your thoughts re: the analogical day theory that Poythress advocates.


2. Justin
August 2, 2007
11:09 AM

Tim, that was the best summary of my beliefs that I have ever come across. You have handled this topic in a very Christian matter (and I mean that as a compliment, of course!). I look forward to any other thoughts you have.

One point that you didn’t mention that has kept me from being a theistic evolutionist is this—If evolution is true, and God “guided” evolution along, then what we see is God failing to create a creature that He can have a personal relationship with. Sure, He might be helping the process, but He still needs to wait billions of years in order for man to exist. I cannot acknowledge a “God” who fails.


3. BB
August 2, 2007
11:10 AM

The problem with saying Atheist use science is that they ignore part of science that does not make sense. As a student of physics, I feel evolution is impossible in that one species can evolve to another. Survival of the fittest however is scientifically sound and has been shown over time. Laws such as the Law of entropy are easily ignored by evolutionist in their blind devotion to their cause, to disprove the Bible & God.

I was not there when the Earth came into being but I see it happening one of two ways. God created it out of nothing and did the same for the living species or God caused disorder to become order thus evolving the species. Either way, they both fit within scientific laws and boundaries. It just requires faith to believe that there actually could be a God.

I tend to believe in creation because that is what was said and I take the Bible literal but who am I to condemn something I can not disprove.


4. BB
August 2, 2007
11:12 AM

The problem with saying Atheist use science is that they ignore part of science that does not make sense. As a student of physics, I feel evolution is impossible in that one species would not evolve to another. Survival of the fittest however is scientifically sound and has been shown over time. Laws such as the Law of entropy are easily ignored by atheist evolutionist in their blind devotion to their cause, to disprove the Bible & God.

I was not there when the Earth came into being but I see it happening one of two ways. God created it out of nothing and did the same for the living species or God caused disorder to become order thus evolving the species. Either way, they both fit within scientific laws and boundaries. It just requires faith to believe that there actually could be a God.

I tend to believe in creation because that is what was said and I take the Bible literal but who am I to condemn something I can not disprove.


5. Mike Morrell
August 2, 2007
11:23 AM

Thanks for this post, Tim. It is a generous, fair-minded appraisal. I’ve been tracking with this conversation a lot recently as well.

You mention “I don’t have an exhaustive list of Christians who are theistic evolutionists, though some of the names I’ve heard are a bit surprising to me.”

Would you mind sharing this list with me? I’ve been trying to track with Christians talking about science and faith (from all over the spectrum), at http://zoecarnate.com/#scifaith

Thanks!


6. Heather
August 2, 2007
11:31 AM

I personally haven’t met any theistic evolutionists, but a college-aged friend of mine, encountered them at Au Sable Institute of Enviromental Studies in Michigan. Her literal view of Creation and Genesis was mocked to her face. She was only taking a summer course with the school and was not aware of this prevalent view. Needless to say, her views of what Christians believe were expanded that summer. A conference on these topics is taking place this weekend in Scotland with Alister McGrath as the Keynote speaker. Here is a link for the conference brochure: http://www.asa3.org/asa/meetings/Edinburgh2007/Edinburgh_brochure.pdf

The listed seminar topics seem quite interesting.


7. Tim
August 2, 2007
11:36 AM

Thanks Tim for this thorough review and comment on this book, and on all the view exposed. Thanks for the emphasis on what’s the authority between science and the Bible. One is evolving (or at least our knowledge and comprehension of it), while the other is the same through the ages, and from the omniscience of God. The answer is simple, thanks for pointing it out.


8. Juice
August 2, 2007
11:37 AM

I’m still waiting to hear the evidence for evolution that is just “too compelling to ignore”. I know there are plenty of evidences for an old earth, but that doesn’t mean there are evidences for evolution. Where are the transitory species in the fossil record? Where is this compelling evidence for one species becoming a completely new species?!

Romans 1 speaks very well to the secular scientist’s reason for believing evolution. I think many Christian scientists feel pressured to believe evolution because they will be shunned otherwise, not because of compelling evidences.

Juice


9. Tim Challies
August 2, 2007
11:40 AM

“Would you mind sharing this list with me? I’ve been trying to track with Christians talking about science and faith”

I didn’t do so because some of them I’ve been told but without any real proof. However, Alister McGrath, Tony Compolo, Desmund Tutu and Robert Schuller all endorsed the book and are all Christian (or “Christian”) leaders. I suppose and endorsement does not necessarily imply complete agreement, but with a topic this contentious it could probably be taken that way.


10. Tracy
August 2, 2007
11:45 AM

Biochemistry of proteins and DNA from various species clearly shows the manner in which the evolution of these molecules has occurred over very long periods of time. While the involvement of God in the process of evolution is possible, it just does not fit the facts to say the world and all the animals and plants were made in 6 literal days. It is a lot more difficult to choose to ignore a vast amount of scientific data than it is to square the Bible with the scientific facts. I have recently also been reading Collins’ book but have not finished it yet. I will get back to you when I do.


11. Heather
August 2, 2007
11:51 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution gives a list of contemporary advocates of theistic evolution.


12. Armen
August 2, 2007
12:39 PM

God bless you Tim. As I see it, a denial of your stated position, in any way, is a denial of the gospel of Christ. If I didn’t spiritually die in a man called Adam, who was created on the 6th day, then the word of God is broken, and the whole lot is a sham. If ALL scripture isn’t profitable, (2 Tim 3:16) then none of it is!


13. Jon
August 2, 2007
12:43 PM

Tim,

Justin Taylor had a post relating to this a few weeks ago: http://theologica.blogspot.com/2007/07/origins.html I think you’re right to have trouble with theistic evolution. The biggest problem I see with it is how to account for the uniqueness of humanity. But, I also don’t think a literal 6 days works either. I like what Justin presents via Waltke.

Regarding death though, my understanding is that the death that entered the world through one man was spiritual death. I don’t see any reason why scripture would require the abscence of physical death pre-fall. There is a Christian assumption that if there had been no fall, Adam and Eve would have lived perpetually. What if they had slipped on a mountain and fallen off a cliff? Just because it didn’t happen doesn’t mean it couldn’t have. We are not told either way. (I know that’s kind of lame example, but the point is that I don’t think there’s good evidence to believe there was no death pre-fall.)


14. Suzanne
August 2, 2007
1:04 PM

I think many Christian scientists feel pressured to believe evolution because they will be shunned otherwise, not because of compelling evidences.

I feel that there should be more humility on the part of non-scientist Christians who have chosen the 6 day creation. Those who are older do not worry about being shunned, their beliefs are not moderated by their fear of social exclusion, they are past that. They arrive at the place where they don’t need to prop up their belief in God with other corollaries.

For example, Bruce Waltke has been a conservative Hebrew scholar his entire life. He has stood up to the liberals for a lifetime. However, he willingly admits that he believes in theistic evolution.

People need a faith that goes beyond having a belief that lines up with their own finite mind 100% of the time.


15. Tim Challies
August 2, 2007
1:05 PM

“What if they had slipped on a mountain and fallen off a cliff? Just because it didn’t happen doesn’t mean it couldn’t have. “

Couldn’t the same then happen in eternity? Will I plummet to my death when I attempt to climb Mt. Everest?


16. Jacob
August 2, 2007
1:09 PM

Thanks for the article!

You cede that evolutionists of all beliefs use science. However, as Answers in Genesis and many other resources point out, the “science” that the evolutionary theory is based on is bogus. There is no reason to even grant that evolutionists have a real scientific basis for their claims.

Mr. Collins claims that a rejection of evolution and secular humanisn would cause the collapse of science. This a a rediculous statement. Evolution is based on several theories. If they were to be accepted as false, things would shift dramatically, but science would not be harmed. Theories are intended to be challenged. Science claims to be trying to find accurate knowledge, so if the foundations are broken, they should be replaced.


17. Joel
August 2, 2007
1:11 PM

Thanks Tim for this post. I am also a literal 6-day, old fashioned creationist. My wife and I have come to the conclusion that if “macro” evolution were true, when we stand before God we want to say, “We took your Word for truth,” rather than the opposite.


18. Brad Crosby
August 2, 2007
1:34 PM

Great review and article Tim, I look forward to picking up the book.

Would you mind sharing this list with me? I’ve been trying to track with Christians talking about science and faith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution gives a list of contemporary advocates of theistic evolution.

Another interesting addition (that I didn’t see on that wiki page) is John Polkinghorne.


19. Mark
August 2, 2007
1:35 PM

Jesus was not a theistic evolutionist, and he knew all things - in fact, sustained and still sustains the universe by the word of his power:

http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/06/jesuswasnot_a.html


20. Odious Herodias
August 2, 2007
1:43 PM

I just finished reading John MacArthur’s book Battle for the Beginning, very helpful and recommended.

BB, nitpicky comment to your comment. I suspect you used “feel” simply because many do these days, but it’s not correct. You stated “… I feel evolution is impossible…”.

However, I doubt your feelings had very little to do with with your conclusions, at least I hope not! Christians, of all people, are those who who consider objective truth ( the Bible being the highest standard ) and think, drawing logical conclusions from the facts at their disposal. How I “feel” about anything is largely immaterial.


21. E.G.
August 2, 2007
2:01 PM

Best commentary on this subject, and best discussion of many (all?) of the theological points brought up in the post is Waltke’s commentary on Genesis. (At least it’s the best that I’ve encountered.)

http://www.amazon.ca/Genesis-Commentary-Bruce-K-Waltke/dp/0310224586

I’m a biologist and a Christian, and as such have had to wrestle with this for many years. My wife, who used to be a young earther (for many of the reasons brought up in the post) was the one who came across Waltke’s book, and she was convinced by his arguments.

My one contribution to this discussion is this:

-Theistis evolution (to take the label) does not imply a watchmaker God at all. In fact, it implies a continually active God, active in His Creation from the first moment until now. Naturalistic science is a useful tool for figuring out how things work, but, since it is inherently materialistic and naturalistic, it cannot detect the nonmaterial supernatural. It can only detect effects in the natural realm.

Theistic evolutionists (often) believe that God IS at work, but that science cannot actually detect God. I would go so far as to say that God is at work in the gravity holding you to your chair right now, but having faith is one thing. Detecting God by studying gravity is another. The latter won’t work. God can only be revealed to those whom He choses to reveal Himself.

To some extent, actually, young earth creationists, who generally believe in a very static Creation, are the ones who can be considered to be believing in a watchmaker God. If God created things only a few thousand years ago, and if things have basically not changed since, then, as far as Creation is concerned, God might as well have wound it up and walked away.

Theistic evolution, on the other hand, sees a dynamic Creation in which God is still (though not detectable by scientific means) at work.


22. Randy
August 2, 2007
2:03 PM

I would like to make one comment about the fossil record that JUICE brought up earlier. We have all been reading AIG and Ken Ham for a long time now, and although there is a lot of compelling evidence there regarding difficulties in evolutionary theory, the fossil record should be considered inconclusive at best for the time being.

If you watch the YouTube video showing a lecture by Kenneth Miller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg) you will note that he correctly states that there are so many transitional fossils that scientists do not not know what to make of it. That is in stark contrast to what we have heard for so many years about the “missing” links in the fossil record.

I guess that I just wanted to say that there is fact-checking that needs to be done on all sides, the exception being the Bible. Just a thought.


23. Jacob
August 2, 2007
3:05 PM

I took a classes on the philosophy of science and intelligent design in college. It was very interesting taking the latter class in light of what I learned in the former. Philosophically speaking, there is no consensus as to what exactly a good scientific theory is. Is it something we can verify? Something we can falsify? When and where does scientific knowledge end? When and where does “non-scientific” knowledge begin?

As a Christian, I am forced to conclude that if all truth is God’s truth, then there is really only one truth, and the Bible is the only inerrant source of God’s truth that I know of. Additionally, I think Christians, especially those in the academy, fail to realize that sin affects our whole being, including our intellect and rationality. Just as our senses aren’t completely reliable, so too with our rational endeavours. Kierkegaard posed the question as to whether it was better to base one’s beliefs on something empirically or historically falsifiable or on faith. Faith was the only place in which he found he could be absolutely certain of his beliefs, because faith built on history or science is always subject to revision.


24. Scott
August 2, 2007
3:22 PM

Randy, Transitional or separate species? Scientists often find a fossil that doesn’t belong to a known species, and they say it is transitional (there is a lot of money to be made in finding these, after all). Also, are these transitions partially formed as we would expect to find as a result of random genetic mutations? Irreducible complexity is a strong argument to take into account before saying something is transitional (Darwin himself admitted that it would undo his whole theory). We all have beginning assumptions about the evidence. So all of this “compelling evidence” is also subject to much interpretation before conclusions are found, so we need to filter them based on who drew them.


25. David
August 2, 2007
4:24 PM

Randy,

No offense, but this…

“…he correctly states that there are so many transitional fossils that scientists do not not know what to make of it.”

…seems silly. If there were indeed so many - then every museum in America would have them lined up - showing how one species - like a fish - grew legs/learned to breath air/etc - and evolved into another species like a monkey. As it is - no such thing exists. Perhaps Scott is asking a better question, but I would like to know how it is that scientists have so many transitional fossils - yet we don’t see this in the museums? Would you not agree that if such things existed we would see them in museums? Clearly showing how one species turned into another one? It’s not there.


26. Tim Challies
August 2, 2007
4:27 PM

“Clearly showing how one species turned into another one? It’s not there.”

I’d tend to agree with David. Collins says in his book that Creationists are wrong to say that we have no evidence of intermediary species, but he doesn’t then defend himself. The museums are certainly not filled with fossils that show species in transition. I understand this to mean that they really haven’t found convincing examples.


27. Terry
August 2, 2007
4:28 PM

BB said:

“The problem with saying Atheist use science is that they ignore part of science that does not make sense.”

Wrong. It is the creationist that rejects evidence that doesn’t fit their world view.

BB said ” As a student of physics, I feel evolution is impossible in that one species would not evolve to another. Survival of the fittest however is scientifically sound and has been shown over time. Laws such as the Law of entropy are easily ignored by atheist evolutionist in their blind devotion to their cause, to disprove the Bible & God.”

You should pay more attention in class

BB said: “I was not there when the Earth came into being…”

Nobody was

BB said:

“I tend to believe in creation because that is what was said and I take the Bible literal but who am I to condemn something I can not disprove.”

Or prove it for that matter


28. Terry
August 2, 2007
4:28 PM

BB said:

“The problem with saying Atheist use science is that they ignore part of science that does not make sense.”

Wrong. It is the creationist that rejects evidence that doesn’t fit their world view.

BB said ” As a student of physics, I feel evolution is impossible in that one species would not evolve to another. Survival of the fittest however is scientifically sound and has been shown over time. Laws such as the Law of entropy are easily ignored by atheist evolutionist in their blind devotion to their cause, to disprove the Bible & God.”

You should pay more attention in class

BB said: “I was not there when the Earth came into being…”

Nobody was

BB said:

“I tend to believe in creation because that is what was said and I take the Bible literal but who am I to condemn something I can not disprove.”

Or prove it for that matter


29. Ray Miller
August 2, 2007
5:19 PM

Tim: Another brilliant and thought provoking post. Please keep them coming!

A minor comment: Who’s the judge?…For those who have a mindset that rejects a supernatural creation of the universe, the Bible would not be a foundational nor an authorative source for issues regarding the formulation of the universe. For those who have a mindset that accepts the Biblical account of creation, evolutionary theory would likewise be rejected.

However….there are two truths… which are the truth of God’s inspired Word and the truth of His created world. These truths are not in conflict. Due to the effects of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden upon creation, we are looking at an altered landscape which must be seen through the lens of God’s written Word. But the majority of those living today would not agree with this statement.


30. slw
August 2, 2007
5:52 PM

@Randy et al, I found this interesting in light of the Kenneth Miller citations.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?id=389


31. Jamie
August 2, 2007
6:04 PM

Tim, thank you for the post. I’ve been thinking about the whole issue regarding evolution and creationism for awhile, particularly because I work for an institution that supports evolution. I have a few comments and a few questions open to anyone who cares to answer.

First - have you or anyone in this discussion thread read The Genesis Debate: Three Views on the Days of Creation edited by Norman Geisler? One of the views in there is called the Framework View which basically says that Genesis Chapter 1 is a poem. I won’t go into the details of the view (check wikipedia), but it seems to me to make sense, but I will wait til I’ve done more indepth study.

Second - regarding the issue of death, as noted above Romans states that man brought death into the world by Adam’s sin. Is the death Adam brought, the death of humans, or of all creation? This is why I ask: In Genesis 2:16-17 God tells Adam that if he eats of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he will die. If that was the only mention of death til Adam and Eve ate of the tree, then I wouldn’t be asking this question. If God tells us not to do something, we don’t have to understand it, we just need to obey. However, this is not the only mention of death before the Fall. Satan and Eve have a conversation in Genesis 3:1-5 in which Satan challenges God’s command and tells Eve that she will not die. Here are two non-deities having a discussion regarding death and seeming to understand what it means. So, my big question is, did death exist for animals and plants before the Fall such that Eve and Adam understood what death was?

Any thought on this will be much appreciated.

Jamie


32. Nath @ Reformed Geek
August 2, 2007
6:42 PM

Good post Tim. I think you presented all sides fairly, but I am glad to read that you’re still a literal six-day creationist!


33. steve martin
August 2, 2007
7:14 PM

Hi Tim, You said: I really would be glad to receive recommendations for a book written by a conservative Christian explaining how we can reconcile science with Scripture in these points and others. .. but man, you asked a lot of questions … I see you aren’t a literalist when it comes to numbers :-). Frankly, I’m not sure any of us that grapple with the implications of God’s evolving creation have really good answers to all those questions. My recommendation as a start would be Denis Lamoureux’s web essay “Evolutionary Creation” at: http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm. thanks,


34. slw
August 2, 2007
7:16 PM

@Jaime; If Adam or Eve had seen things die and begin decomposing, or even get scavanged, do you think they would have been so easily deceived? I think the concept of death to them was completely theoretical, therefore subject to the spin of the devil.


35. Darryl
August 2, 2007
7:57 PM

I recently asked a science professor who holds to some form of theistic evolution how he accounts for the biblical teaching on Adam and Eve. He stated that science holds to an original human couple, and that theistic evolutionists have no problem talking about an original human couple like Adam and Eve.

Regardless of the science (and the science is important), the key for me is determining the authorial intent and genre of the creation account. Everything else flows from that. I tend to follow Waltke on this. I heard D.A. Carson speak on this and he hinted that he may not hold the party line, although he was clear he didn’t want to get into it at the time. I’d love to hear him explain this more.

Thoughtful post as usual, Tim.


36. Jacob
August 2, 2007
9:10 PM

I am curious (and posing an argument, I’ll admit). To the theistic evolutionists in this thread, do you believe in all the miracles performed by God in the Bible? Do you accept that the first born of Egypt were struck down, the sun stood still, that Christ walked on water, and Lazarus physically rose from the dead?

If you accept all these things, then why can you not accept the account of Genesis as being literal?


37. Darryl
August 2, 2007
10:12 PM

Jacob:

As someone who isn’t a young earth, 24-hour day creationist, I accept the miracles of the Bible.

Why question the young earth and the 6-day 24-hour creation interpretation? Two reasons: clues within the text that it is not meant to be read that way, and scientific evidence that seems to indicate otherwise. Can’t speak for everyone though.


38. Aq
August 2, 2007
10:41 PM

Do you think that Christians pointing out the perceived conflicts between science and the Bible is conducive to gospel preaching? Sometimes I wonder if we portray evolution to be a hurdle that my unbelieving friends must overcome in order to be true followers of Jesus. Perhaps it’s just a distraction? I’m no scientist and I don’t pretend to be. I don’t really care how the world was created, I can leave that to the scientists. I do know the Bible tells me who created it and the consequences of rejecting his rightful rule, and I want to talk to my friends about that, not about natural selection or fossil records.


39. Jason Ruzek
August 2, 2007
11:28 PM

David,

I agree with you, and so did Gould, who indicated that the trade secret of Paleontology was the notable lack of transitional forms. Although, Randy, I am unfamiliar with the Miller piece so I will have to check it out. Perhaps Kenneth discovered many million somethings new in the last few years since Gould’s passing. Thanks!

Additionally, the proposed transition of forms is perpetually being rehabilitated. For instance when we see the time line from Eohippus (small horse, post dog) to Equus (our horse), what is ignored is that this is an externally applied path, and in reality geological layers can and do contain multiple forms at the same time. And what is also ignored is the “Cambrian Explosion” in which over 50 different Phyla appeared suddenly in the strata and from no forms that were even remotely transitional. We now have 20 Phyla or which means that we now have much less diversity (millions and millions of fewer species)as far as body type goes.

The existence of similarity of form does not have to bear the externally supplied presumption of upward mobility, especially when supposedly ancestoral creatures coexisted with their purported progenerate.

I also disagree with Tracy, in that, it is only similarity in form and comparative simplicity of structure that leads to an a priori decision of evolution. Presumably, creatures that breath O2, need water, and utilize the finite variations on fats, proteins, and carbohydrates would be greatly similar genetically. Again, it is only a presumption, to look at these things and believe that they are whispering “upwardly mobile”. If anything the miserable frailty of DNA and and the mind blowing specificity of biochemistry scream the involvement of God.

Lastly, (no really) Exodus 20:11 is the deal breaker for me. If one is going to buy into the word of God at all then words in the word need to mean something. If “day” for the Sabbath references the seventh day, but the days are really long or heavenly or immaterial to our coconut heads then the fourth commandment was meaningless and pointless.

Like Tim said, if everything tangible in the bible is just metaphor, then where do you stop?

Ususally with the things that bother you.

And maybe that’s the point.

Jason


40. Randy Hurst
August 2, 2007
11:29 PM

Our Lord God has become even more awesome to me through my understanding of science. But just as the Psalmists and Prophets could not have fully appreciated the fullness of the Christ to come, they DID get tastes of that hope that bolstered their faith.

Likewise, we have yet to see the fullness of science’s disclosures to the stupendicity (my worship of God continually demands neologisms) of YHWH!

To speak with absolutism against the evolution of science (yes that the proper word order) is being a bit of a “flat earther”.

Just because the sciences still flounder to give meaning to life, we should not flounder by trying to make the Bible the ONLY science text book. There are several good resources recommended here that deserve a thoughtful read as counter point to your conclusions. The problem with general categorizations of thought and persons is that they leave little room to mix it up. I am a-political for the same reason. I don’t’ like one group of anything telling me everything I should think.

For instance we all use phenomenological language even in our enlightened age. The sun still rises even though we understand we rotated. We are often debating gnats on needles (nonsense).

That we now speak of millions of years and billions of stars and a never before seen nano-verse only better impresses upon us the timelessness and limitlessness of YHWH as reflected in His name above all names.

That certain unimaginative scientific types would doubt the veracity of the Bible and miracles is not surprising. That we have not become even more beside ourselves in amazement as science impresses us with the uniqueness of our existence, that the miracles (with the pinnacles being salvation and resurrection) really happened, and that our faith (and the Love of Christ) has NOT rattled into oblivion by the revelations of science, IS the true shame!

Oh…thanks for letting us know about Dr. Nettles ills. I had just reconnected with him last week after almost 30 years, and he didn’t even mention he was under the weather…rascal rabbit!

…and also thanks for the link to Dr. Pipers blog on the bridge collapse…that was a very poignant recounting of his family moments. Oh, that we would all be so wise and well spoken in the face of unimaginable tragedy in our backyards. Our prayers are with the Twin Cities.


41. Randy Hurst
August 3, 2007
12:00 AM

Sorry,somehow this didn’t come out my finger tips properly:

…that the miracles (with the pinnacles being salvation and resurrection) really happened..

should have been, “just how miraculous the miracles of salvation and resurrection really are”


42. Randy
August 3, 2007
12:34 AM

@{Scott, David, Tim},

Allow myself to perhaps be more clear and respond. First, I am still a literal, 6-day, young earther. As a grad student with all kinds of “scientists” around me all day long, I know that “facts” are interpretable to be less than facts depending on which professor’s office you are in.

@Scott, I think that I was trying to say what you are saying. Answers in Genesis says one thing, a different community says another. We need to filter each of those camps. I am trying to say is that the fossil record seems like a weak argument for the creation side, and may not be correct, so it should be considered inconclusive, as the evolutionists have considered it. Looking back, perhaps it would have been more prudent to leave the “correctly” out of the statement about Kenneth Miller. I don’t have any allegiances to him. Good point about separate vs. transitional. That passed my mind without stopping for thought.

@David. I don’t expect to see all of these fossils in secular museums. As far as I know, scientists don’t know what the “transitionals” are. If they can’t draw conclusions about their speciation or evolutionary descent, they can’t publish. If they can’t publish, they can’t get grants. If they can’t get grants, they don’t have a job. All they can and do say is “We need more money to look into this further.” Scott is 100% correct about the money issue. Also, it seems more like an embarrassment to place it in a museum display and say, “We have absolutely no idea what that strange looking thing really is!” Today’s scientific community will do anything to prolong grants and squash possible embarrassment.

I would however expect to see it in the creation museum. What would be a better nail in the coffin? Does the new museum in Kentucky have any, or do they consider them all separate, previously unclassified species? According to Tim and Collins (who seems to agree with me), but doesn’t defend it, there should be no reason to see them there either, since they do not exist. Wouldn’t it be funny to walk up to the “transitional” fossils exhibit and see an empty display case?


43. Custard.
August 3, 2007
4:48 AM

Sadly, your points just don’t take account of the most Biblical of the Old Earth Creation (as I prefer to call it) views, which is roughly outlined by John Stott in his commentary on Romans when discussing the federal headship of Christ.

Adam can be a literal historical figure; death in Romans 4 only refers to human death (as implied by “and then death came to all because all sinned”); the transition between non-human and human is defined by divine revelation to Adam who is then the first man; Genesis 1 is pretty much literal but a broader range is allowed for the word “yom” than the English “day” permits.

If you are arguing against a position, you need to address the strongest case.


44. Glenn Piper
August 3, 2007
5:12 AM

There is no need for Science or Creationism, the two work very well together without compromise. I would highly recommend the Answers In Genesis web site where you will find a huge library of work by scientists from all disciplines and not only are many of them PhD’s, but there are some who are recognised leaders in their fields.

Custard - when Yom is linked with a number and/or the designation ‘Morning, evening’ etc in Hebrew it always means a literal 24 hour day without exception.


45. Rich Owen
August 3, 2007
7:33 AM

Tim, thanks for this. It is important to remember this isn’t a primary issue - you can still be a Christian and not be a 6 day young earther, and it is always tragic when people have nasty arguments over this. But I agree, it leaves more questions that it answers and I share your concerns for the church. I’m a 6 day, young earth from nothing person, and took quite a bit of stick when doing my physics degree, but took refuge in the church… only to find that I was in the minority again!

Just by way of addition to Tim’s challenge…

Hebrews 11:3 says “By faith we understand that the universe was created by the Word of God” In other words, the only way to understand creation is to have faith in Christ because he made it. Someone who doesn’t have faith in Christ will never understand creation because it is by faith in him that we come understand it. We therefore cannot deduce or measure how, or why there is a creation because such a process does not come from faith, and what does not come from faith is sin (Romans 14:23). Any scientific attempt to describe the universe is therefore idolatrous.

I have 2 questions:

As a Bible believing and scripture loving Christian, you wouldn’t countenance the idea of allowing a Gnostic or Hindu influence on your Bible study, neither of which come from faith, so why science?

How did your exegesis of scripture lead you to your view?


46. Reformed Gary
August 3, 2007
9:21 AM

For those interested here’s a link to an informative article by Dr. G.F. Hasel reviewing different interpretations of Genesis 1

The “Days” of Creation in Genesis 1

It gets into the meaning of Yom as brought up by Custard and Glenn


47. Tim M.
August 3, 2007
9:23 AM

Hi Tim. Thanks for the thorough article. This is a topic on which I’m somewhat conflicted; I see the strength of the Biblical case as you do, but I’m not convinced the standard anti-evolutionary arguments are valid. I’m not sure what to think.

In the interests of presenting more arguments from the other side, I want to direct people to the theistic evolutionist Glenn Morton (a geologist). He argues the Genesis account is historical, but compatible with evolution. I don’t find his proposed interpretation convincing, but it does bypass many or most of your objections. He has a website with many articles. Here are some of the relevant ones:

Days of Proclamation—New Way to Interpret Genesis 1 Plain Reading of Genesis 1 Why I Believe Genesis is Historically Accurate Does the Bible Teach Evolution?


48. Ralph T.
August 3, 2007
9:59 AM

When Jesus raised people from the dead, He did so instantaneously. Lazarus had been dead four days, which means his biochemistry was seriously decayed. Jesus completely restored his every bodily function instantaneously, as he did every other person he raised from the dead. Jesus was raised by his Father in an instant.

God is capable of creating life in a moment. He does not need to wait millions of years to achieve what He wants to achieve.

Last time I checked, Charles Darwin’s molecules had not reassembled themselves, and he is still in his grave. When he comes out, let me know and I will believe in his theory. Until then, I’ll believe in what the risen Saviour believed and taught.


49. RANDY HURST
August 3, 2007
10:33 AM

On literal interpretations: We must use our noodle here, discerning what is figurative and what is not figurative.

If we interpret everything in the Bible literally, then Solomon has one deformed lover in the Song of Songs; Joseph and Daniel have some explaining to do having referring to visions and dreams when they were in fact literally happening; in Christ’s Revelation angels are literal stars, churches are literal lamp stands and then it really gets bizarre; and Christ’s parables are now unreliable because they, in Luke’s accounting of His story telling, are parables, therefore they must be not so literal…can you believe that our Lord Jesus would speak “un-literally” being himself the Word of God. People do not always say “I’m going figurative here, so please don’t take me literally”. I can make a point that is 100% true with a figurative expression.

The Word is Truth, and the better you understand the original languages and their use of the varieties of rhetoric, the deeper you get to go in the appreciation for it’s richness. And yes it becomes MORE meaningful when they are spiritually discerned. But you do need to be able to read or hear the words as they were meant to be read or heard to get to the spiritual richness they hold. Sometimes, when I read folks on the extreme ends of this debate, I walk away wondering if they are reading it in the in the same language.


50. David
August 3, 2007
11:08 AM

I haven’t had time to read every post carefully so someone may have already mentioned Hugh Ross at Reasons to Believe (www.reasons.org). Are you familiar with him?


51. Mike A.
August 3, 2007
11:40 AM

Randy H. said: “[t]he better you understand the original languages and their use of the varieties of rhetoric, the deeper you get to go in the appreciation for it’s richness.”

When we in this age try to interpret the words of past ages, we unconscoiusly impute many aspects of of our society to the ioriginal authors. Genesis, for example, was written before the invention of modern science, and even before the invention of history as we know it. So it is unlikely that the authors meant it to be either scientific or historical.

In fact, the two groups of authors of Genesis would be incredulous that anyone would take their words literally. They would think us naive and unperceptive. For a good exposition of the theological devices and intended meanings of the Bible’s creation stories, read Conrad Hyers, “The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science” (John Knox Press, 1984). You will then read Genesis not only with more understanding, but with an increased awe for its theological breadth and subtlety.


52. Scott C
August 3, 2007
12:00 PM

Randy Hurst, Many assume that YEC proponents have a flat woodenly literal view of the whole Bible and cannot make distinctions in literary genres. This is unhelpful in the debate.

The reality is YECers accept Genesis 1-2 as historical narrative in part because there is no break in the continuity from Genesis 1-2 and the rest of the larger pericope of which it is apart of - Genesis 1-11. The key is the strategic use of the Hebrew term toledot (i.e. “generations”). The term is used to structure the whole narrative throughout Genesis 1-11. Note toledot is used in 2:4 (i.e. translated “account”) to link the creation account to the larger framework of the pre-Abrahamic narrative. It is used again in 5:1 (for Adam’s genealogy); 6:9; 10:1; 11:10, 27. If Adam is not historical in the creation account then his genealogy in 5:1ff. must be rejected as historical and subsequently the rest of Genesis 1-11. For that matter, the rest of Genesis must be questioned as historical narrative and that obviously presents serious problems. Toledot is also used in 25:12, 19; 36:1, 9; 37:2.


53. Ken
August 3, 2007
12:00 PM

Mike: Based on your reading of the gospels, do you think Jesus treated Genesis as a historical document?


54. steve martin
August 3, 2007
1:09 PM

Regarding the questions to evolutionary creationists (EC) wrt reconciling a “literal” interpretation of Genesis with evolution, there are actually many views within EC. For clarity, I’ll use the word “historical” rather than “literal”.

  1. Some EC accept that all of Genesis is historical. Glenn Morton’s view identified by Tim M. above is a good example of this.

  2. Some EC accept the historical nature of Genesis 2:4 & following, but not Gen 1. Dick Fischer’s “Genesis Proclaimed” organization is a good example of this. See: http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/

  3. Some would view Gen 12 & following as historical, but not necessarily Gen 1-11. As Scott C. pointed out, there is no natural break before chapter 12. Denis Lamoureux’s web essay I pointed to earlier is a good defense of this. In his excellent commentary on Gen 1 – 15, evangelical biblical scholar Gordon Wenham refers to Gen 1-11 as proto-history.

Regarding references to science vs. scripture, I agree this is a false dichotomy. Its really how science & scripture is interpreted. YEC will maintain they are doing science, EC’s simply believe (very strongly) that YEC scientific interpretation of the evidence is atrocious. And those of us that are EC do trust the bible. YEC’s however believe (very strongly) that we are interpreting the bible very poorly. I posted on the science vs. scripture choice earlier at http://evanevodialogue.blogspot.com/2007/05/scripture-or-science-do-we-have-to.html


55. steve martin
August 3, 2007
1:15 PM

(Oops .. Hit post too soon above). To Ken & others regarding questions of whether Jesus & Paul referred to Adam as a historical character, and whether they thought Adam was historical. (Separate questions I think). Frankly, those are great questions … I’ve got to admit that right now I don’t have a really good answer to that yet. Still wrestling.


56. Josh Caleb
August 3, 2007
4:35 PM

I was born and raised under the 1689 LBC and am now soon to finish my PhD in Biochemistry. I’ve just recently finished “LoG” by Collins in my own struggles to come to a resting place wrt Science and Faith. A profound quote from LoG by Augustine is insightfull: “in matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision … we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture” My view is essentially that God is the God of all truth and we should never be afraid to evaluate any theory that is backed by real evidence. There is a flexibility in Gen 1 with regard to time as i see compelling reasons to trust Einstein’s theory of relativity and it’s prediction of an old cosmos, but I do agree with Tim there are theological “pillars” which are more or less immovable including 1. Literal Adam and Eve created in God’s image. 2. Origianl Sin 3. Divine Sabbath keeping precedence as already mentioned. Aside from some of these guiding princeples i’m “agnostic” as to the mechanism and exact time scale of God’s creative processes. It is not essential to my faith (aside from the above exceptions) and i can accept scientific evidence which is reliable. I do not include (Darwinian) macroevolution in this category of reliable scientific theories because of the paucity of evidence, and this is decidedly not due to ignorance, rather close proximity to the biological sciences, knowledge of the naturalistic arguments and daily access to PubMed. Does that make me an OEC?? I don’t know; don’t care about labels, but only God’s truth whatever the source.


57. Donna
August 3, 2007
10:14 PM

4 words that were said from the beginning to confuse man in to believing he knows more than God:

“Did God really say?”

Sums it all up

Nope. Nothing new under the sun. The ol’ serpent is still hissing. He’s says old earth and here I have proof, and man goes a running.


58. Donna
August 3, 2007
10:22 PM

Anther thought, I have always been curious…

How does man know that something is billions of years old? What does he have to compare it to that he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt is billions of years old? Since carbon dating and some of the other methods used are proven to not be 100% accurate on all matter and situations. How does he know for sure?

I still here the ol’ serpent hiss again, “Did God really say”?


59. Mike A.
August 3, 2007
10:50 PM

Ken said: “Mike: Based on your reading of the gospels, do you think Jesus treated Genesis as a historical document?

Although Jesus talked a lot about Abraham and others in Genesis, He didn’t really comment on the creation part. So it’s hard to tell from the record. My guess is that He understood the creation stories as theology rather than history, just as the original authors did.

One example of the theology: In the Gilgamesh epic that paralleles the sory line of Genesis 1 (written several hundred years later than Genesis 2), the chief god created gods of the sun and moon and stars, who then briought forth others for animals, seas, and so on. In Genesis, one God created the sun and moon and stars, and everything else. The point being that the sun and the moon, formerly worshipped as gods, were not gods, but natural parts of creation.


60. carl sharkey
August 3, 2007
11:02 PM

I have some few points to make regarding some comments concerning the genisis account of creation and they are as follows. Adam did not write Genisis, I believe Moses is recognised as the author inspired to write the account and so we should remember that he wrote the account in words that he had available at that time as did all the writers of the scriptures. With that in mind I do not believe that he had any of these multi-syllible words we use today to describe what he wrote of. His use of “day” could be the best he came up with since I do not think they had a word for epoch or any such extremely long length of time. Next concerning 2Peter 3:8, a day is as a thousand years ….and a thousand years as a day. YHWH has always existed and will always exist. He is infinite in both past and future so I ask; what is time to such an awesome entity? Years, seasons, months, and days were given to us for our needs not his. Could not a “day” be a subjective amount of time with these two things in mind? Is it taking anything away from our God thinking that each day could have been millions of years long and all of differing time? Concerning the THEORY of evolution; I might be wrong but did not Geofry Hoyle compute that the chances of spontaneous creation were 1-0 to the 32 power? Does that not mean it is an impossibility? Add in the chances of not only one creature evolving suddenly into another but at the same time the opposite sex of the same species appeared. Add to that the odds of them both appearing not only at the same time but also in the same area so to be able to procreate their spiecies should be the mother of all impossibilities. Concerning the “big bang” did not the psalmist say that”With your dynamic energy you created the cosmos.” If God did use his awesome energy to create matter there would have definately been LIGHT at the time of the release of it.(“let there be light.”) In conclusion, I am just a carpenter with no prestigious degrees, but these simple thoughts seem to allow the written record and the physical record to agree.I have found the truth to be simple. The speed of light is a constant and retracing it back to its point of origin does give a good argument for the age of the universe. I think that it really does not matter to our salvation how we think YHWH created the cosmos only that we believe without doubt that he did create it. Faith and doubt can not exist together. Finally, go outside and pick up a rock. It is the simplest of all creation, it does not breath, procreate, or move under its own power. It has no thoughts. All that we see can be found in them for they hold all the elements in the atomic table. They make up the mantle of our earth and without them life could not exist as we know it. Try to make one……….out of nothing.


61. Scott C
August 4, 2007
1:17 AM

Carl, Things are not a simple as they may seem. Consider the miracles of Jesus in relation to time, space and matter. In John 2 we read Jesus turned the water into wine; not ordinary wine, but the best wine. Wine takes a certain amount of time to ferment. The best wine take longer to ferment. Supposing the headwaiter was somewhat of a wine connoisseur, how old do you suppose he thought the wine Jesus made was? Was the wine months or years old or was it merely minutes old? What criteria would one use to judge the matter? Normal scientific criteria? Consider the multiplying of fish for the crowds to eat. What make and model was the fish? Were they young fish or old fish? What was their date of birth (or hatching if you wish)? How would one judge the matter? These are matters conventional science has no apparatus or foundation to answer. We can reject the miracles because they are not scientifically verifiable, but then we run into a problem if we reject miracles (i.e. think Jesus’ resurrection).

Just as Jesus spoke and the wind and the waves defied normal processes of the laws of nature (if we want to call them such), I think it is safe to categorize God’s other creative acts via fiat (speaking things into immediate being and action) in the same way - namely the unique act of Creation ex nihilo by divine fiat. It seems to me that passages like Heb. 11:3 make this clear. The appearance of the creation was not what it seemed, just like the wine and the fish.

I do not know how we reconcile such divine creative acts with the normative processes of scientific understanding. But then again we do not scrutinize divine miracles by the laws that God created to govern His creation and are used at His bidding in the manner He decides. The reality is the normal providential sustaining of the universe (by what we like to call laws of nature) cannot ultimately be distinguished from God’s special acts of providence in what we call miracles. “In Him all things hold together” (Col. 1:17) and He “upholds all things by the word of His power” (Heb. 1:3).

This is why I can accept a young earth created in a short span of time that ‘seems’ to be incompatible with verifiable appearances (think distant starlight and the speed of light). My worldview and understanding of the nature and actions of God do not require me to reconcile the ‘apparent’ discrepancies. And I do not think my worldview scuttles conventional science, only that conventional science cannot answer all of the questions the universe poses.


62. Rob Mitchell
August 4, 2007
1:41 AM

Tim: Thanks for your irenicism. I was an atheist until my conversion just before my thirties began. As a young Christian I wanted very much to believe Young Earth Creationism, but I knew too much astronomy.

Fellow Christians told me I was worshipping at the hoary idol of science, putting science ahead of the Bible.

I believe that God is the author of Scripture and of Creation, and where there appear to be contradictions, the contradiction arises from my mis-interpretation either of Scripture, or of creation, or both.

But I think that creation is a reliable source of truth, because Scripture says so:

Romans 1:20 “From the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made …”

Creation is shown as a source of truth.

Psalm 19:1-3 “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands. Day after day they pour out speech; night after night they communicate knowledge. There is no speech; there are no words; their voice is not heard.”

The heavens are set forth as a reliable source of knowledge.

Genesis 1:15 “They will serve as signs for festivals and for days and years.”

The heavenly bodies are signs, to be studied.

So as much as I respect my fellow Christians who hold different views and their views for holding them, I am among the number who think that Hebrew scholars like Meredith Kline, Mark Futato, and Bruce Waltke have a hermeneutic approach to Genesis that causes fewer problems than a literal-chronological approach, which causes more internal contradictions in the text, especially between chapters 1 and 2.

But this comment is too long already. When I post a blog on it, I’ll let you know, because even though I differ with you on this point, I respect you deeply as a brother in Christ and a fellow Reformed believer.

Rob RTS Student


63. Rich Owen
August 4, 2007
5:57 AM

Rob M, I’m glad you used those verses, but just for clarity, and with reference to my previous post, as the hymn says, Jesus is Lord, creation’s voice proclaims it. The sermon of creation is a sermon about Christ (Col 1:23). What creation reveals (see my previous post) we can only apprehend by faith, and certainly not from science. Science doesn’t say Jesus is Lord based on it’s observations of creation.

Science can only observe a fallen world, and the observer is subject to the same frustration as the creation itself, and will never be a reliable source of truth for that reason.

So we must stand with the reformers and say “scripture ALONE.”

We must rely only on the information the Word of God gives us about the creation which is mediated by The Word of God himself.

This brings us neatly back to the question - so how do we understand the Genesis account? We understand it by faith, through exegesis, not going beyond what is written (we are commanded not do this - 1 Cor 4:6).


64. Jason Ruzek
August 4, 2007
10:41 AM

Hiya Randy,

Interestingly in your commentary on hermeneutics, your noodle notably avoided deriding figurative interpretations. Quite similar in style to Spong or Borg in their view of the resurrection as figurative, since compartive literature did not exist at the time.

Where do you draw the line?…or perhaps are you more comfortable drawing the line at what actually happened versus what makes us feel philosophically and humanistically warm inside. What I mean, Randy, is that, as you “walk away wondering if they are reading it in the in the same language”, I am wondering what ,if anything, you mean or stand for other than cutting down any literal interpretaion whatsoever.

Christ was raised in my heart, right?

What is wrong with that interpretation if literalism of any sort is so silly?

Just, once again, trying to figure out if you know what you mean.

Jason


65. Jason Ruzek
August 4, 2007
10:59 AM

Hiya Mike A.,

So let me make sure I understand you properly. Scientific and Historical writing was not around in the middle 2nd millenium BC? I’m certain the Mesopotamians, Akkadians and court of Pharoah would be surprised to hear it.

But even if that were the case, which it most certainly is not, how is it that you remain unafflicted by your own subjectivity in your interpretation of the words in Genesis? Tell us how you found the road which leads to the bird’s eye view.

It is a considerable fallacy to suggest that ancient perspective equals ancient ignorance in all but your own subjective cultural desires and angles.

Jason


66. RANDY HURST
August 4, 2007
11:33 AM

Hiya back Jason. Thanks for giving my ribs time to heal. (smile)

I should ahve known that you would take my words literally.

You said: “I am wondering what ,if anything, you mean or stand for other than cutting down any literal interpretation whatsoever. “

If my use of hyperbole is disconcerting, I apologize. My illustrations were purposefully exaggerated to make a point. Something our Lord used too often for the Pharisees of his day.

Now you could infer that I am inferring the same pejorative to those who lack finesse in their interpretation of scripture to this day. If and when I do, I am throwing myself into that same lot. Jesus used the apriori of love of God and Man as His interpretive nexus.

I believe in literal physical miracles. I like Hot Rods. If I design and build the engine…I know all kinds of ways to make it run faster. Miracles, in my tiny understanding (as you seem to like poking fun at :)), are God’s Hot Rodded Science.

Even my dysfunctional noodle usually discerns the difference in the figurative and the literal. But there are those in our clan that make statements that sound (even if they do not so intend) as absurd as my own intentionally absurd examples when they say they take the Bible literally. Literally true, yes. Properly exegeted, a must. Hermeneutically sound, please.

I believe that our Lord God could have created the world / universe to “appear” old as the mechanisms of scientific interpretation evolved, but that would seem out of character to someone who gave His worshipping creatures such a eye for the order and design that he engineered in the first place. Such trickery would be more in the vien of the Fallen Angles.

There are many good examples of old earth / eternal God, young man / new to science thinking referenced above. So I will refernce you back to them.


67. StaffAction
August 4, 2007
12:20 PM

Great Post Tim, Justin Taylor recently wrote a couple post on this issue I found thought provoking:

http://theologica.blogspot.com/2007/07/origins.html and http://theologica.blogspot.com/2007/07/origins-ii.html

-Ben


68. Josh Caleb
August 4, 2007
2:43 PM

Rich Owen, So your saying the Holy Spirit can enlighten Christians in reading the Bible accurately but It can’t enlighten a Christian scientist to read God’s Creation accurately? Thats absurd. Do you think the sun still revolves around the earth? Well why not? Science you say? Becuase i hardly doubt you’ve performed the measurements yourself. THIS IS WHY THE COPERNICAN REVOLUTION IS SO IMPORTANT TO THIS ISSUE!!! We as christians IN THE SCIENCES must influence lay-people to adopt a correct view of scripture AS CHRISTIANS!! There is an element of trust here, trust that brothers in Christ are relaying an accurate view of what science is indicating (Science does not belong to the devil, it belongs to believers!!!).


69. Tim V-B
August 4, 2007
3:53 PM

Over here in England, the numbers of Christians willing to identify themselves as 6-day creationists are very small, so it’s good to hear some good arguments in favour!

I think that Exodus 20:11 is important here: if we believe that Scripture interprets Scripture, I think this forces us to interpret Genesis 1 literally as referring to 6 24-hour periods.

There’s also the theological argument: I find it very hard to believe that God created the animal/plant world through evolution, since survival of the fittest is essentially justification by works! (I don’t deny survival of the fittest in the fallen world, though.)

[BTW: Rich Owen - your line of arguing sounds very familiar; were you associated with the ‘Frameworks’ course in central London that run a few years ago??]


70. Anne
August 4, 2007
11:24 PM

For me, the questions are relatively simple. 1. Who wrote the Bible in the first place? 2. Who was the Bibe intended for? 3. Did the Author take into account the intended audience? 4. Is the Bible reliable?

  1. God.
  2. Every man, woman and child on the face of the earth from the beginning of time until the end. For the rich, the poor, the meek, the mild, the clever, the not-so-clever - in short every person who ever lived.
  3. Yes. The Bible is not meant to be some obscure tome where the meaning has to be teased out and debated on, and can only be understood by the intellectually superior. It says what it means and means what it says. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” means just that. Before God created it, there was nothing. God made it. The first two chapters of Genesis are not difficult to understand…my six year old comprehends it perfectly.
  4. See question one. I am a six literal 24 hour days/6K to 10K years ago creationist, because that is what the Bible clearly says. God wrote it, He was there when it happened, so I think we ought to listen carefully when He tells us what happened. The creation/evolution argument really gives pause for thought, if you think about the account of Noah and the Flood alongside it. Why did only 8 people get on the Ark? Only 8 people believed exactly what God said. God said He would destroy the earth, but the hordes didn’t believe it because it had never happened before/they couldn’t test it out/God really doesn’t mean what He says anyway and just wants to stop us having fun. (Does that particular argument ring any bells?? It should.) Look what happened to the hordes who said that God really couldn’t do that. Look what happened to the eight who listened to God, believed that He could do what He promised, even though from a human understanding point of view it was impossible. Of course there are fewer and fewer people who believe that God created the world in the way it says in Genesis. “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” Matthew 7:13. I am not suggesting that a theistic evolutionist is marked out for destruction, but I think you’ll find, if you scratch beneath the surface a little, that acceptance of anything other than what God says on the creation issue, also means a denial of other things that God says elsewhere. Either the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, or it isn’t. You can’t have it both ways.

71. Mike A.
August 4, 2007
11:59 PM

Quoth Jason: ” Scientific and Historical writing was not around in the middle 2nd millenium BC? I’m certain the Mesopotamians, Akkadians and court of Pharoah would be surprised to hear it”

Herodotus of Halicamassus, 5thC BC, is regarded as the “Father of History.” Before his time, narrative accounts were written for the purpose of glorifying ancestors, leaders, tribes, and so on. Accuracy and strict truthfulness were not considered important. Science began in Greece around the time of Thales, 6thC BC. Before then, there was only technology, with its experience and rules of thumb. Thales an his cohorts were the first to try to develop “theories” about physical phenomena, and to organize facts into these theories. Previously, all we wanted to know was how to stack rocks into houses that wouldn’t fall over.

The JPE writers of the two creation accounts wrote in about the 10thC BC (2) and 6thC BC (1), and far removed from the places and cultures where science and history were nascent. So I maintain that the authors of Genesis, before those time would have considered themselves, worote strictly to illustrate theological points, not historical facts or scientific theories. There is no warrant to consider Genesis as either hostory or science.

Jason: “[h]ow is it that you remain unafflicted by your own subjectivity in your interpretation of the words in Genesis?”

By consulting authors whho have made scholarly studies of these matters. In this case, the Hyers book that I mentioned, Anderson’s “A History of God,” and several others.

Jason: “It is a considerable fallacy to suggest that ancient perspective equals ancient ignorance in all but your own subjective cultural desires and angles.”

I never said the ancients were ignorant or that their perspective was wrong. The matter at hand is to determine what that perspective was. That’s why I said the Genesis authors would laugh at us moderns for literal interpretations of Genesis—-they wiould think us ignorant of their perspective, and naive. They were sophisticatred in many ways. It is you who see Genesis only through the eyes of modern society. In fact, essentially no one saw Genesis as a literal account until the rise of modern science in the 15thC. Ironically enough, it was that burgeoning science that projected its worldview onto the Bible.


72. Scott C
August 5, 2007
12:34 AM

Mike A, If Genesis is not real history (or for that matter the rest of the OT since it deals with purported history prior to Herodotus) then why do the NT writers regard it as history? Were they just hopelessly myopic antiquarians perpetrating myths disguised as reality?

I find your assessment far-fetched and too influenced by antiquarian 19th century theories long since refuted.


73. Mike A.
August 5, 2007
10:33 AM

Scott C says: “If Genesis is not real history (or for that matter the rest of the OT since it deals with purported history prior to Herodotus) then why do the NT writers regard it as history?”

Do they regard it as history? How do you know? The NT writers drew many lessons from the OT. We draw lessons from fiction as well as from history. We talk about Babbitt as an example of a grasping unsatisfied person even though he never existed. We draw a lesson about overweening ambition from Lady Macbeth. Did the prodigal son that Jesus spoke of actually exist as a real person? Does it matter?

Also, why do you assume that something that is not “historical” never existed? Archelologists have found evidence of David’s kingdom, although some of his deeds were probably exaggerated or invented. Was there an actual Abraham? There probably was a person on whose life “Abraham” was modeled.

Here’s an example from another culture. When you (had to) read the Odyssey in high school, you thought of it only as a fictional adventure story. To the Homeric Greeks, however, it was a guide to correct living—-an encyclopedia. The stories illustrated how one was expected to behave in various circumstances. And, although fictional, it was based upon actual events, and to some degree on real people. Did the Greeks understand it as history? Of course not. That wasn’t the point.

This is aother aspect in which our inability to see beyond our own modern milieu hinders us from understanding. I read historians, philosophers, and theologians about my religion. Faith that is not informed by knowledge is sterile, and sometimes misleading. And reading only books you agree with is bootless. At a creationist lecture in California two years ago, a young woman stood up after the presentation and said that she wanted to go to college but then decided against it, because she might learn something that would challenge her faith. The audience applauded her decision. I think that’s a sad story. But maybe you’re with the audience


74. Rich Owen
August 6, 2007
5:53 AM

Tim V-B. Well spotted. I know the frameworks stuff well (not from attending All Souls, through a friend). I guess you must do too since it is hardly well known. Your Exodus 20 point is the killer isn’t it.

Josh C. I’m sorry if my argument got your blood up - my intention is to engage on a slightly different tack, not to irritate people – to push thinking, not to push an agenda. If that isn’t how it comes across, then I apologise unreservedly.

I do think you have been a little unfair in your response though. I do not believe that science is of the devil as you imply. Interestingly, I did make those measurements at university. Careful with assumptions, Josh :-)

I actually agree with you. It is our job as Christians who also happen to be in the sciences to speak the truth about creation. What I wanted to share was the idea of just how we come to know what that truth is, and the Hebrews argument is that we understand it by faith. Which means there is no false dichotomy as you suggest - we understand the world by the same process as we understand the bible – the same, not one or the other – in the Spirit, by faith in Jesus, through the revelation of Jesus in scripture.

I do think we have to acknowledge the limitations of science though, and accept that it cannot stand alongside scripture, and where there is seen to be conflict, we accept scripture and reject science.

I hope that helps clear things up :-)

Blogs and forums are not the best medium for debate, but they are useful and can help us to grow. I guess the key is to accept that we all struggle, and to offer each other the grace of Chirst as we read and respond to what is posted.

In Jesus

Rich


75. Si
August 6, 2007
6:42 AM

Tim said “While I certainly admit that the Bible is not meant to be a scientific textbook, if we affirm its inerrancy we need to believe that where it does comment on science, it does so truthfully.”

I agree on the Bible’s inerrancy, but I am not convinced that what it is doing is commenting on science. It seems very strange that it would be commenting to an ancient Hebrew culture on a branch of human thought that was to them non-existent.

Tim also said, “if we decide that the biblical account of creation is simple allegory or a metaphorical description of what actually took place, how are we to determine where allegory ends and reality begins?”

This argument seems to be saying let’s not try and wrestle with this issue properly because it’s too big a can of worms. It also seems to me to be a mistaken dichotomy of allegory and reality. From our point of view where we try to find explanations in scientific terms, or else try to make the Genesis account into a scientific explanation, then we view “allegory” as somehow akin to “fable”, ie telling a bit of a fib in order to clarify something else. No, allegory in this sense is reality and not fiction. It just isn’t a description telling the message that we seem to obsess about looking for (ie. a ‘scientific’ explanation).

Supposing for one moment some of the scientific explanations are accurate, I can guarantee that their incompleteness will make them fairly allegorical from God’s complete point of view. This doesn’t, however, make them wrong.


76. Josh Caleb
August 6, 2007
8:11 AM

Rich, I do appologize for the undue use of caps, not really my intended tone, just earnestness spilling over i guess. I’m glad to see other scientists in the forum. I would agree that Special Revelation has a higher level of importance than General Revelation, but that is due to its different function, that being: salvation, not just knowledge about God’s creation and time-space. We are dealing with the later in this case. Lets not confuse the two. I just hope people aren’t forgetting these important ideas of valuing general revelation at all. The Belgic Confession’s “two books” analogy, and the shorter catechism discern the two and point to the purposes of each. By definition, i don’t think of the two as “in conflict” with each other; that means in any cases of “apparent” contradiction one of them has some flex in interpretation. On one hand Einstein was wrong about relativity, the cosmos is young and Genesis 1 is literal; OR Einstien was right and God is not trying to “deceive us” about the age of the cosmos and there is some flex in our interpretation of Genesis. Its God’s truth but one of those two scenarios has to give. I want to believe the right one as a Christian and scientist. Soli Deo gloria.


77. Matt Tully
August 6, 2007
9:31 AM

Thanks for the fair and balanced article Tim! I really appreciate your attitude in contemplating these difficult topics.

While I cannot be dogmatic at this point, I have found that I am becoming more and more convinced by the Progressive Creationism (Long Day) theory. My biggest worry in studying PC was theological in nature: if death was in the world before Adam’s sin (the Fall), what did that mean? Like I said before, I am not totally sure at this point, but right now I am thinking that it means nothing… Death was a curse on man because of man’s sin. Try reading Genisis 3, Romans 5, and Romans 8 without the presupposition that no animals died before the Fall. and you may be suprised (I was).

A great resource on PC is Hugh Ross’ book “A Matter of Days.” Ross is kind, gentle, intelligent, and most importantly, biblically faithful. Also, for a more concise article dealing specifically with pre-Fall death, check out this: http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/otherpapers/animaldeathbeforethe_fall.shtml


78. Rich Owen
August 6, 2007
11:31 AM

Thanks Josh.

I know this is probably extending beyond the scope of this thread, bit it is linked I guess, and might explain (in part) where I am coming from. On General/Special revelation, you call for distinction between the two.

I don’t know if you aware that there has been some really interesting discussion around the issue of General/Special revelation over here in the UK. (Tim V-B picked up on the language I was using as being influenced by that debate).

The idea being debated is that we shouldn’t in fact separate General and Special Revelation - that there is no difference. The basic idea is that creation doesn’t just speak general truths about “a creating god” but in a specifically Trinitarian way about Jesus Christ, and his salvific work. This aspect of the discussion is particularly important for scientists like you and me, but the wider debate has wider consequences for our understanding of the OT.

Rich


79. Josh Caleb
August 6, 2007
3:35 PM

Yes, i’m very interested in this topic, however tangential to the original thread (although i don’t think so). I just now read through some of your earlier comments and i’m conscerned with a conclusion you came up with: “Any scientific attempt to describe the universe is therefore idolatrous.” I have a real problem with this conclusion. I don’t think scientific pursuits in and of themselves are idolatrous. Furthermore, i think this type of perspective is precisely why the christian worldview so often is scorned outright (1 Cor 4:10 only applies in spite of our reasonableness, not because of our lack of being reasonable) in the sciences and now in the public eye because “we” put a damper on discovery becuase of our faith. I completely disagree; as christians we have the same desire to explore the components and mechanisms of nature via science; however I admit a split difference in motive (helping mankind AND bringing glory to God) but do not relinquish the pursuit even knowing that science will never attain to the full knowledge of God (Eccl 3:11).


80. Jason Ruzek
August 6, 2007
11:14 PM

First of all you are correct in saying that near eastern cultures which existed previous to and during the patriarchal period usually did history in a very selective manner. However, there are a bare minimum which did history in a very even handed, if nationalistic, manner. The historians of a few cultural groups that predate Herodotus buy up to 1,500 years reported when they lost and when they won and when things were great and when they sucked. But even if that were not the case, historiographers are still able to detail the various dynasties and shifts of power by comparing the respective histories of the more selective, conquest-obsessed governments. In the process of comparing the records of these different groups historians can determine the flow of history of this period, even though the Patriarchal period seems to have lacked an Edward R. Murrow of the Chaldeans. But even if that were not the case, your reason for attributing credit to Herodotus, namely that he at least tried to ask the questions and take in the whole picture no matter how ugly, belies the fact that you would choose not to accept the Biblical record, even though the warts and all are contained in bulk in the same fashion. Why would people record things in a manner that makes them out to be the miserable cusses that they were, and we are, if they were no different than the nationalistic, aren’t-we-cool historians which you accuse them of being? And if they are neither and you don’t really don’t care what they meant (as long as one gets some meaning out of it which makes one all warm inside) then why would come here and write that every orthodox Christian since Paul has been getting it wrong? Your criteria for accepting secular scholarship are, in fact, much different than your reasons for not accepting the bible in what it says. Why is that?

Which, believe it or not, brings us back to the original stream. What is your worldview for looking at the Bible? It, from what you have noted so far (I don’t know anymore than that about you), is the world. The lens through which you interpret the Bible is the darkly tinted glass of the fallen world, ever shifting, “truth”-abrogating scholarship, being blown this way and that by the purpose-driven flippy-floppy of those who would say that God does not see or know. Now, you may say something similar about me except in the direction of fundamentalism, conservatism, bible-literalism or some other poorly defined attempt to categorize. And honestly, though the terms are poor, in intention you would probably be right in many ways. Which would only reinforce