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05/22/06
Comments (45)

Confessions of a Reformisson Rev. - Further Thoughts

My review of Confessions of a Reformisson Rev. by Mark Driscoll raised a furor. I was shocked by just how quickly the comments began to add up. They quickly bounced up to over 170 before David, who helps me moderate the comments area, decided that they had served their purpose and needed to be shut down (and I fully support the decision). Many blogs picked up the discussion as well. Because of the amount of virtual ink that has been spilled discussing this post, and because of what a few people have subsequently said about me, I wanted to add a few comments.

First, It is an unfortunate truth of the blogosphere that sometimes the tone and content of a blogger’s post can be lost in the subsequent comments and discussion. I fear this may have happened with my review of Confessions of a Reformission Rev.. It may surprise you to know that my review was largely positive. I thought Driscoll had many good things to say and I tried to articulate that. It was not until the final paragraphs that I addressed my foremost concern with the book: the sometimes vulgar language. However, almost all of the 170+ comments focused only on this critique and very few mentioned the positive aspects of the book. Thus, while my review was largely positive, the comments were largely negative. So let’s be fair here and acknowledge that I think Confessions of a Reformission Rev. was quite a good book with many valuable things to say. Had I thought it was an awful book I would not have provided a link to buy it from Amazon.

So please understand what I said about Driscoll’s book and what was actually said in the later discussion. I cannot be held responsible for the tone or content of comments. Even here I would like to say that the vast majority of comments were level-headed and maintained a godly tone.

Second, it is important to note that what I wrote was not a theology of cussing, nor an examination of Mark Driscoll’s ministry. Rather, it was a book review. On the whole I tried to discuss only the book. After all, most people who read the book will know little more of Driscoll than what they encounter within the pages of Confessions of a Reformission Rev.. As some have pointed out, Driscoll recently penned an apology for some vulgar words he had written in response to the views of Doug Pagitt and Brian McLaren. In this article he apologized directly for what he had said about them and also suggested that he is attempting to moderate his use of harsh language. You can read this apology here. It is possible, and even likely, that the manuscript for his book was finalized before he was convicted of sin in his response to McLaren and Pagitt. Thus it is possible that, if given the ability to edit the manuscript, he might not have included some of the more vulgar sections of Confessions of a Reformission Rev.. Only Mark knows. But I don’t feel this is necessarily relevant to my book review.

Third, I do not feel that I need to first approach the author in order to critique his work. Mark Lauterbach wrote a post called Examples of how to critique? in which he said: “It is cheap to critique without trying to show the person their fault.” He advocates a Matthew 18-like process of confrontation and correction. I disagree with him. Driscoll’s book is a matter of public record and when a book (or a blog article) is published and publicly distributed, it is with the assumption and understanding that it will be read and critiqued. Reviewing books would be a useless and impossible enterprise if I first had to approach each author before I pointed out flaws or weaknesses. Matthew 18 does not apply to these matters of public record.

Fourth, it seems that some people were offended that I quoted Mark Driscoll’s use of vulgarity. To be honest, I did struggle a little bit with whether or not I should do this, but eventually decided that I could do so in good conscience. I dislike such use of language and felt bad that people would encounter it on my web site. Still, I feel that it was necessary to show that I was not merely being over-sensitive when pointing out that the book can be vulgar. The vulgarity of this book is not simply in using words like “crap.” While I hope there will not be a next time, if there is I will attempt to first post a disclaimer of sorts so those who do not wish to read such language can simply click the “back” button and avoid it. But I have to ask…is there anyone who can honestly say that he or she would have clicked “back?” Experience tells me that a disclaimer is really usually little more than an invitation.

Fifth, I probably could have articulated this within the review, but did not feel at the time that it was necessary. Perhaps I was wrong. One of the things I find most difficult about Driscoll’s vulgarity is that it is, at least sometimes, measured and deliberate. This is shown clearly within the dialogue with the college student. There is absolutely no way that what Driscoll presents is a completely accurate, word-by-word account of what happened. If he was as tired and groggy as he would have us believe, he could not remember every word that was spoken that night. What he presents is a memoir more than a transcription. Thus he could have used a less-vulgar term to describe what the boy had done. Yet he chose to be provocative. And in fact, I don’t think it was even necessary to publish the exchange in the first place. Driscoll added it to the book to show that he was reaching the end of his rope, but he did not need to provide this story. It is clear that he did so in order to be deliberately provocative. There can be a fine line between confession and exhibitionism. As I said: deliberate provocation.

Sixth, Justin Taylor wrote the following this morning: “I do wish that his extended quotation (which is causing all the heat) had been set in context more than it was.” Justin may be right. The quotation was taken from early in Driscoll’s career, and thus may not reflect what he would say if the same situation were to arise today. At the same time, it was written only recently. See point five, above. Justin also posts a great quote by J.C. Ryle. I agree entirely with what Ryle says and hope that Justin was not directing this at me in particular since I truly do feel that I was quick to see grace in Driscoll. See point one, above. J.T. was quite right, though, to indicate that some people made the error of committing “Graceless Slander Under the Guise of Discernment and Doctrinal Fidelity.”

As always, I am surprised by which of my articles cause a great amount of discussion and which do not. On the whole, book reviews are the posts which tend to gather the lowest number of comments. I was shocked, then, to see just how much discussion arose as a result of this one. Still, I think there was been some valuable and beneficial discussion and I trust that it has somehow proven valuable.

Confessions of a Reformisson Rev. - Further Thoughts

Comments (45) »


1. Justin Taylor
May 22, 2006
11:20 AM

Just to confirm, Tim: I think the Ryle quote applies to all of us. It was not aimed at you—I thought your post was fair. It was aimed at some of the comments that resulted from your post. It amazes me how often people get upset about true things said in a crass way, but overlook false things said in a clean way.


2. Kim K.
May 22, 2006
11:23 AM

Tim, Thanks for your detailed explanation. I understood your concerns, in context, from your first post. I was a little amazed by the furor on the blogosphere over the weekend. Keep up the good work.


3. Dwayne
May 22, 2006
11:24 AM

Tim - I agreed with most of your review, well, all of it. I did not comment however. But after reading the comments on your book review of Driscoll’s book and then reading this response today, I must comment. My comment is this…..Amen!


4. Steve McCoy
May 22, 2006
12:04 PM

“First, It is an unfortunate truth of the blogosphere that sometimes the tone and content of a blogger’s post can be lost in the subsequent comments and discussion….It may surprise you to know that my review was largely positive. I thought Driscoll had many good things to say and I tried to articulate that. It was not until the final paragraphs that I addressed my foremost concern with the book: the sometimes vulgar language.”

When a book is reviewed the intention of the reviewer is not just to state content and give opinion, but actually to structure the review in such a way that it reflects the thoughts of the reviewer. With that in mind, your original review was negative. It gave a great amount of space to the negative, and ended on the negative. Surely you realize that the way a review ends is huge for the reader as it signifies what you want the reader to remember most about your thoughts on the book. So I disagree with you that your review is largely positive, even if that was how you felt about the book.


5. bill streger
May 22, 2006
12:23 PM

Tim, I’m going to agree with Steve above - you are a very gifted writer, and I think you know what you are doing when you structure your reviews. While you did include some positive comments about the book, the review both began and ended with negativity. It was almost as if the tone was “the book has some good qualities, but you have to wade through the mass of vulgarity to get to it.”

Reading the review again, it seems that you emphasized the negative aspects over the positive - that was the taste left in the mouth of the reader. If that is your opinion of the book - that’s fine. But I don’t think it’s a fair statement to say that the review was largely positive. Anyway, just my two cents.


6. Wayne Shih
May 22, 2006
12:24 PM

Confession: I’ll read the comments in posts just to watch the “car wreck.”

Tim, my take on your take of Driscoll’s book is that you were generally favorable in your review but that you had a problem with his use of language. You shared some of the content of the book, and gave some of your reactions to it.

That to me accomplishes what a review should. It helps me to decide whether or not I should (1) spend money buying; and/or (2) spend time reading it.

Thanks for reviewing books (and then taking some of the flak).


7. RobertZ
May 22, 2006
12:28 PM

I think it’s fair for Tim to say that his review was largely positive - but I’m almost sure we don’t want to start 170 more comments on whether his 1st review was positive or not.

Tim, In journalism I used to hear that if you’re getting it from both sides, you’ve done well. I don’t know if the same standard applies to book reviews on a blog, but I will say as someone with not nearly as much emotional attachment to the parties involved, I think you were largely complimentary of the book and were fair and even-tempered in the concerns you raised.

But in the event the furor continues, perhaps a Carmelite vow begins to look somewhat attractive :-)


8. wfseube
May 22, 2006
12:30 PM

As was stated a couple of times in the mega-comment string, the message often gets lost in the way that it is delivered. This apparently is occasionally true with Pastor Driscoll, and it appears it may have been somewhat true of your review as well.

Regarding Justin’s comment: it amazes me how often people get upset about true things said in a crass way, but overlook false things said in a clean way. - this is true, but it does not negate the fact that there is an issue when people say true things in a crass way. And that’s precisely what all the furor was over: there’s really no compelling reason for a Christian to use “crassness” to convey a message, and I believe the bulk of Scripture teaches against a crass approach, despite the evidence that such “vocabulary” was employed by folks like Martin Luther, etc.

bill


9. Zach Nielsen
May 22, 2006
12:40 PM

I’ve posted some thougths that might apply here:

http://takeyourvitaminz.blogspot.com/2006/05/new-emphasis-in-critique.html


10. DLE
May 22, 2006
12:43 PM

Folks,

Whenever we go hunting for heretics or decide to crusade against another Christian, we should always ask this simple question, “Is sanctification instantaneous?”

We all know the answer to that question. So before we lambaste another person for whom Christ died, let’s start thinking of a timeline from the point at which someone is saved and their ushering into the presence of the Lord. At various points along that timeline, people are going to wrestle. Sometimes they will fall into a ditch along the side of the narrow path. Other times they will have that EUREKA! moment and make great strides in the faith.

When we encounter another person, all we see is that thin slice of time that frames the encounter. We don’t know all the facts. We don’t know the past struggles or future triumphs. But we judge anyway because we think we’re farther along the timeline or further down that narrow path. How haughty of us!

Do we even remember all the bad doctrine Christ purged out of our own lives as we grew in grace? Everyone of us Christians started out with a boatload of misinformation about the Gospel and how we should live it, yet somehow we’ve grown. We should never break a bent reed because one day Christ may come and straighten it. He makes all things beautiful in HIS time, not ours.

Therefore, Grace-giving should be our natural state. If, through careful understanding we need to confront, then we should do so—but only with the understanding that sanctification is a long process.

Once we were all stupid. I pray we are all becoming less stupid as we grow into the image of Christ. But we should never forget that stupidity is only erased over time as we spend time before the Lord. Some people started out more stupid than others, and some of us have lapses of stupidity as we are sanctified. But stupidity in fallen humans in light of a holy God is a given, and the more we accept that reality in ourselves and in other people, the more accurately we will discern the truth and understand others as they are sanctified.

Our continual one-upmanship and the ease at which we slide into judgment and criticism of each other dishonors Christ. I don’t see that “being right all the time” is listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit. You are not Paul and neither am I. And none of us is even remotely close to being like Jesus yet.

For the sake of the Kingdom, let’s remember that we are all sinners and allow each other more grace.


11. bibliomaniac
May 22, 2006
12:44 PM

WFSEUBE said: “it does not negate the fact that there is an issue when people say true things in a crass way.”

Amen to that!

Driscoll’s persistence in crassness DOES in fact bother some people. Is that not reason for him to have second thoughts about his methodology? Being that he represents a holy God, I would think so.

Tim, I hope lasts weekend’s “furor” does NOT make you hesitant, in the future, to comment on problematic issues within a book. I am VERY glad you brought up the negatives as well as the positives. The negatives are very revealing and do in fact help us make wiser judgments about any given book.

My complaint about most Christian book reviews is that they’re all warm and fuzzy and afraid to make any so-called negative comments. The book reviews that appear in so many Christian venues are essentially worthless for this reason.


12. Paul Schafer
May 22, 2006
12:46 PM

Thank you Tim for writng a response to all those commenters. And also to your peers and church leaders who’ve emailed you over the weekend. God does answer prayer.

In Sincerenes,

Paul Schafer


13. Wes
May 22, 2006
12:54 PM

I agree with McCoy that the review was not positive but mostly negative.

The negative quoting of the direct comments of the book, point to an issue the reviewer obviously had problems over…..vulgar, non-churchy language. This led many reading the review to believe the man (Driscoll), and his character was being reviewed instead of his book. And many people subscribe to Driscoll that read Challies.

I think people didn’t know what the review was really about. I for one, forgot that it was a simple, BOOK review.


14. Luke Britt
May 22, 2006
1:01 PM

I think alot of this discussion has been silly. I like what Driscoll is doing and I believe that he is a role model for young ministers. That’s right - ROLE MODEL. He has flaws and openly acknowledges them; he told a group in Orlando that he had struggled with a bad mouth. The essence of Driscoll’s teachings is that we are all broken and dirty and we need a Jesus who can fix us.

I want to thank God for his ministry and for urging pastors to be “real men” in order to reach a crazy messed-up culture.


15. Mark Lauterbach
May 22, 2006
1:14 PM

Excellent response Tim.

I thought you were favorable.

I still think that if at all possible we should seek to run a critique by a brother — depending on the issue. If it is a theological debate, certainly the printed word has been a means of discussion over the years. I have known men to contact the person they were debating just so they could hear their tone of voice before they wrote their critique. Glory to God!

If it is character issues, then all the more we should seek to get to the person first.

Sometimes it is not and that may condition how the critique is written. It all depends on the issues being discussed. Being as careful as possible with their reputation as well as being careful with the truth should be our pattern.

Overall, you are quite careful. I respect you for that.


16. MikeS
May 22, 2006
1:22 PM

Tim,

Having just slogged through the long weekend commentaria, I think you have found the perfect blogstorm.

Mixing an emerging/emergent leader together with the use of language and sanctification was quite the combination. All you need now to really melt everyone’s server and fiber cables is to throw a few extra comments from N.T. Wright into the cauldron and wait for it to boil.


17. wfseube
May 22, 2006
1:32 PM

MikeS wrote Mixing an emerging/emergent leader together with the use of language and sanctification was quite the combination. All you need now to really melt everyone’s server and fiber cables is to throw a few extra comments from N.T. Wright into the cauldron and wait for it to boil.

I think the Pyromaniacs have the corner on that market…

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/05/some-thoughts-on-bad-language.html http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/05/key-to-gospel.html

bill


18. Paul Lamey
May 22, 2006
1:32 PM

The score at the top of the inning:

5 who liked the review.

5 who still like Tim but are having second thoughts about the review.

3 libertarians


19. Ariel
May 22, 2006
1:37 PM

I appreciated both your initial review and this follow-up. What can get lost in the surrounding rhetoric is that a review is just a means to an end; people should come with a readiness to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions.

I think your thoughts facilitated rather than prevented this. I, for one, will be buying a copy of Driscoll’s book as a result…


20. wfseube
May 22, 2006
1:45 PM

Ariel wrote: I think your thoughts facilitated rather than prevented this. I, for one, will be buying a copy of Driscoll’s book as a result…

Pastor Driscoll probably won’t look at yesterday’s blogpost-fest this way, but perhaps this episode will be yet another proof point for the addage “all publicity is good publicity.” I suspect that his book will sell a few more copies as a result, from both sides of the fence. I doubt that’s the way he wanted it to happen, but hopefully all will benefit in the end!

bill


21. Nathaniel Winn
May 22, 2006
1:51 PM

Matthew 18: I had often heard that term used to refer to a portion of that chapter, as if that portion was a step-by-step guide to church discipline.
I have even heard it used as a verb: “Bob got Matthew 18d!”

But upon recently re-reading Matthew, I was susprised to note that the Savior was, in fact, commanding unity and humility.


22. Larry
May 22, 2006
1:53 PM

Contrary to Steve, I thought the review was generally positive, with a negative view at the end towards the comments that have created the furor. I did not get the impression from Tim that he was turned off by this book. My impression was that he generally liked it, though he wished some more judicious use of language had been demonstrated.

I picked up my copy of the book last night to try to find the comments in question and read the context. I found myself reading more than I intended to because it is a good book, written in an engaging way. Reading Driscoll or listening to him are very smiliar … it is hard to put it down.

I did find the comments and read the conclusion … the guy stopped watching porn, got married, and has kids.


23. donsands
May 22, 2006
2:00 PM

I’d like to learn more about Mars Hill. Basically, I want to know what the Lord is doing through His Church. If Mars Hill is part of the Lord of the harvest sending workers into the field, then I want to understand better what the Lord is doing. I appreciate the book review. I have had a lot of interaction with all the new emergent theology lately, McLaren, Erwin McManus, and others. I read Don Carson’s book on the Emergent Church, and was very informed, what I believe was a very well written account of what’s involved in this whole movement. I’m still learning.


24. RobertZ
May 22, 2006
3:00 PM

DLE’s comment about judgmental attitudes and looking for grace is fine, but the application he gives would make for a laissez-faire ecclesiology. There is a lot of room between witch-hunting and fault-finding and pointing out issues of concern for someone in such a prominent position.

Biblically, there is a high standard prescribed for leadership - and given the subject’s prominent place in the church at large, “anything goes” is a bad minimal standard for appraisal.

Again, the review of the book was positive overall.


25. Van H. Edwards
May 22, 2006
3:23 PM

I’m in the middle of reading Driscoll’s book. Tim is correct that the late night phone incident took place very early in his pastoral career. There is a similar incident outlined later in the book (ch.5) that Driscoll handled in his usual “in-your-face” style, but in a less caustic manner. Driscoll confronts every man in his church regarding the sins of adultry/pornography/lust in a way that got their attention and that seemed to change many lives.
I was surprised to see how far the “cursing conversation” went on other blogs. These posts and comments completely missed the point of Tim’s review, threw Driscoll under the church bus without learning another thing about him and condemned him and his ministry. Which is kind of ironic since “cursing” is essentially a verbal condemnation of something or someone. So far, I’m mostly positive about Mark’s book, even though a few passages posed some yellow, if not red, flags. But much of the book shows Mark confessing and admitting his mistakes, repenting and doing better. Driscoll has guts and he’s taking the Great Commission seriously.
I found Tim’s review “positive with warnings”. Thank you for posting both your review and much needed response.


26. Wes
May 22, 2006
3:28 PM

This whole deal has me asking the not-so-quite obvious quesion of how a ‘positive’ review is defined? Is it, a reviewer that gives a book an overall thumbs up?

I’ve learned that it looks like in this case, the reviewer simply gave the thumbs up (‘positive’) to this book but with several qualifiers at the end that made it appear like it was a thumbs down(negative).


27. wfseube
May 22, 2006
3:32 PM

I got to thinking about this more and more and decided to go back and re-read the original review and try to look at it semi-objectively from a positive/negative perspective. That in mind, I find:

1) On my 1600x1200 display, if I position my browser at the top sentence of the review and scroll, there are 2 screens worth of review content that focuses almost zero on the “crass” part of Pastor Driscoll’s book. There is one screen that focuses on the negative, a large part of which is the extended quote that Tim included. 2) The final paragraph includes four sentences that are positive about the book and two that can be considered negative. The last sentence is actually quite insightful and explains the two-day odyssey of postings appended to the original blog post and this current one. That last sentence says: “It may endear him to some, but it will surely alienate him from far more.” That, in a nutshell, is exactly what emerged (no pun intended) in yesterday’s post-a-thon.

So by that absolutely non-scientific assessment, one can gather that Tim’s post was largely positive about the book. He focused about 30% of his “column inches” on a topic that Pastor Driscoll already has a reputation with, so I don’t think it was unfair to cover it, particularly since the book raises precisely the same concerns in those folks who don’t care to hear God’s message through “crass” means. Yes, the review could have finished with a positive final sentence, but the final paragraph finished with an overall positive tone on the book.

bill


28. Tim Challies
May 22, 2006
3:58 PM

“So by that absolutely non-scientific assessment, one can gather that Tim’s post was largely positive about the book.”

I quite agree with your non-scientific assessment. You may notice that it generally fits the structure of most of my reviews, and especially books that I like. I talk about the good and, near the end, mention what (if anything) I did not like so much. I think you’re correct that the length of the excerpt may have made it seem more negative than was otherwise the case.

“This whole deal has me asking the not-so-quite obvious quesion of how a ‘positive’ review is defined? Is it, a reviewer that gives a book an overall thumbs up?”

That is a good question. I don’t do thumbs up or thumbs down. I don’t give star ratings. The reason is that I find people will just look at the rating and skip the process, and often the process is far more important than the final conclusion. Plus, what is an 80% book in comparison to a 75% book? Seriously.

This is why I generally end with a sentence such as “I recommend it” or “I don’t recommend it.” I try to be fairly transparent with whether or not a I recommend a book. This keeps me honest as I can’t just throw out a bunch of facts and hope that other people understand my intent. Instead I have to explicitly state who I feel should or should not read the book. I didn’t quite do this with Driscoll’s, but I think it should have been understood by my concluding paragraph.


29. Mike
May 22, 2006
4:33 PM

Stuck with being who I am, and feeling compelled as I do to inflict that upon others, I’ll offer the following observations and/or comments.

Tim wrote,

“Experience tells me that a disclaimer is really usually little more than an invitation.”

Your cynicism here approaches my own, with a difference: regardless of what people do with a disclaimer - even if they embrace it as an “invitation,” as you say - we still have the responsibility to warn if we believe others will be offended. We deliver the message; what others do with it is none of our business.

Tim again:

“Yet he chose to be provocative. And in fact, I don’t think it was even necessary to publish the exchange in the first place. Driscoll added it to the book to show that he was reaching the end of his rope, but he did not need to provide this story.” (italics mine)

If you are right about Driscoll, i.e., that he did it to be provocative and it was not necessary the first time, how do you justify repeating it a second time? Did you do it to be provocative, as you charge Driscoll? I think you’re treading close to being judged by your own standard of judgment.

From Robert Z:

“Tim, In [sic] journalism I used to hear that if you’re getting it from both sides, you’ve done well.”

Having been a part of the school of cynical journalism from the late ’60s to early ’80s, I would offer an alternative to wide-ranging comments in addition to (not in place of) the one put forth by Robert Z. Though not the case with Tim, with others criticism often comes from both sides - not because one is “doing well” but - because one really has failed to say much of anything. Hoping to keep everybody happy and offend neither side, both sides are troubled. That is no less irritating and will elicit reactions from both sides of whatever fence the author is trying to straddle.

FWIW, I didn’t find anything wrong or offensive with the original review, although I have no desire to read the book. More troubling to me were many of the comments and (now) what appears to be unnecessary and contradictory backpeddling on Tim’s part. I don’t think Tim did anything wrong and see no need for him to apologize; but I have a hard time with some of the points he has made in this post.


30. M J
May 22, 2006
4:43 PM

As I have pondered the quotes of Mark Driscoll taken from his book which you reviewed, I have these points I wish to be considered:

  1. Mark Driscoll is a pastor of a church which means he is a shepherd or elder; therefore, he is to meet the Holy Spirit-inspired qualifications of Titus 1 and I Timothy 3. Titus 1 says, among other things, that an elder/shepherd is to be above reproach, not quick-tempered, SELF-CONTROLLED, devout(emphasis added).

    In 1 Timothy 3:1-7 qualifications of an elder/shepherd are also given, and this passage says an elder is to be an overseer, ABOVE REPROACH, respectable, etc. (emphasis added).

  2. As pastor of a church, Mark Driscoll is a teacher of God’s Word and James 3:1 says that teachers are held to a higher standard, “knowing they will incur a stricter judgment.”

  3. A pastor is the spiritual leader of his church therefore, he is to be a godly example to his flock who will follow his lead.

All of the above must be taken into consideration in the strongest way by those who lead and shepherd the flock of the Living God.

I sincerely pray that Mark Driscoll will come to a greater understanding of his responsibilities and of the his influencewhich he is to use to show others how to live a godly life to the glory of God.

mj


31. centuri0n
May 22, 2006
5:08 PM

Blog comments! PHEH!

Stick to your guns, Challies. It was a good review. Is there another way to demostrate that Pastor Driscoll said some “authentic” things in his book? Sure.

My opinion is that nothing makes the point like the evidence itself. I just wrote an extended comment at TeamPyro advocating against the use of vulgar language, but there’s a difference between employing the lingua franca of the street yourself and providing evidence that some writer uses that “french” in his writing.

How do so many people make it through the grocery store on a daily basis without sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting “LALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”


32. A. B. Caneday
May 22, 2006
5:11 PM

For what it is worth, Tim, I thought your critique was even-handed and bore a fitting tone.

You are right about the non-fittingness of Matthew 18:15-17 concerning book critiques. I know something about this since I have authored numerous articles and have authored a book. Matthew 18:15-17 fits private sins not public sins. Things of public record, inlcuding public sins, must be addressed publicly, not privately. Some time ago, out of Christian generosity and out of a desire to have “love cover a multitude of sins,” in a quest for reconciliation I made a tragic mistake of attempting to address a series of very public sins in a private manner, guided by Matthew 18:15-17. The result was a complete disaster. No repentance or acknowledgment of sin was forthcoming. Instead, hardenness of heart set in. Matters of public record, whether vulgar statements or sinful deeds, need to be addressed publicly, not privately.

Once authors publish their ideas, no one owes them a special visit to offer a private admonition to repent or to recant. The same is true of blogs, including comments, such as the one I am writing at this moment. Given these realities, we all ought to devote far more caution and thought to everything we write. We will all give an account for careless words (Matthew 12:36-37).


33. ryan
May 22, 2006
5:14 PM

Just finished reading Ed Stezter’s new book “Breaking the Missional Code” and it makes reading all of this that much more difficult. This is a book Tim that you should review and might put much of this disscussion into a better context. Mark Driscoll is a missionary. He lives in Seattle where the culture, and demographics are quite unlike anything most of us would understand. His ability to know his community and speak their language has led to many people hearing the gospel who would otherwise not. My real concern becomes what is crude, and profane? His book is filled with honest accounts and stories of trying to speak the language of a sick depraved world in order that they could hear the gospel. Personally, and being a young guy in his twenties and having had similiar conversations as the one Driscoll talks about here, I see nothing wrong with it. Telling young college guy to quit being a pervert and get a job and a wife is a message we should be screaming from the rooftops in our culture not complaining about. I know I know many will argue with the methodolgy and say “he did not need to say it that way” but my question to you is how many young college guys have you helped mold and transform into Jesus loving men? Something to think about.

I am utterly amazed at how many are quick to pick up stones and anxiously await the chance to throw them at Driscoll. I consider myself quite reformed in my theology, but it is times like this when I begin to wonder if we could learn a bit of generosity from those we would label emergent. Driscoll is advancing the Kingdom and waving the banner of men to step up and be what God has called them to be. I love how Driscoll ends his book in laying out a his pastoral heart and loving vision for his people, and he actually says something quite important to this conversation, about how his enemies desire to put him on a pedestal just so they can have a better target. What doesent everyone put their rocks down, and go learn how to speak the language of your community. This does not mean cursing like a sailor, but it does mean knowing what connects and helps people change. ryan


34. Mike
May 22, 2006
5:17 PM

CenturiOn said:

“Blog comments! PHEH!”

Frank, having read your comment, I couldn’t agree more!


35. Brian Thornton
May 22, 2006
5:44 PM

His book is filled with honest accounts and stories of trying to speak the language of a sick depraved world in order that they could hear the gospel.

Sorry, Ryan, but the gospel does not need help from us by using salty language to get the truth across. The gospel is what it is…it is NOT defined by culture…and - except for speaking English to those who understand English, and Chinese to those who understand Chinese, etc.- the gospel does not need adaptation from one culture to the next.

I am curious where Driscoll’s language comes in when telling one that they stand condemned before a righteous and holy and just God Who will pour out His wrath on all those who have broken His Law…but that Christ came and fulfilled ALL righteousness and died on the cross as a substitute for sinners, so that ALL who believe in Him alone will receive forgiveness of sins.

Where does Driscoll’s cultural relevance with his mouth make that message more understandable to those around him?

What doesent everyone put their rocks down, and go learn how to speak the language of your community. This does not mean cursing like a sailor, but it does mean knowing what connects and helps people change.

Ryan, I fear that YOU may be the one who does not know what connects and changes people…the gospel is NOT connecting with people on their level by using certain types of flowery language…the gospel is NOT finding some solution to some cultural problem…the gospel is NOT some message that changes from one culture to the next…


36. ryan
May 22, 2006
5:55 PM

Brian, Thanks for the comments. I disagree with you, and am not sure if you have done enough looking into church history to understand that there is a difference in contextualizing the message and changing the message. One is wrong and one has been done all throughout church history. The way the gospel was shared even sixty years ago is dramatically different than today. Along with this, ask any missionary if they strive to find ways to connect the message of the gospel with the people group they are trying to reach they will say it is the first thing they do. Just be careful in your assessment not to take people’s words out of context as I did not say the gospel is defined by culture, but since it is an eternal message it must and can resonate with all cultures and people groups. Even today you would find that if you visited churches in rich suburbs and then churches in poor urban areas the way the gospel is communicated and the language used would be quite different. That is all I was trying to say Brian. You might also want to check out the post at jollyblogger.com as it might interest you in seeing that what Driscoll might not be needing such sharp rebuke from so many.


37. wfseube
May 22, 2006
6:01 PM

Brian said: The gospel is what it is…it is NOT defined by culture…and - except for speaking English to those who understand English, and Chinese to those who understand Chinese, etc.- the gospel does not need adaptation from one culture to the next.

See, this is why I love these comments - they make me think. Brian, I tend to agree with you. And I don’t think that crass descriptions and cursing are needed to “speak the language of a sick, depraved world”. However, there seems to be some crossover point between language and cultural context to be considered, perhaps aside from the “BILL TUSH” problem (HT: Centuri0n)

I have a copy of “Da Jesus Book”, which you may have heard of before. It is a Hawaiian Pidgin translation of the NT, created by Wycliffe Bible Translators to convey the Gospel to those who speak that language. It is a rather odd combination of English, slang, and Pidgin English. In an attempt to illustrate my point, here is Romans 6:23 from “Da Jesus Book”:

Dis da deal: Wen you do da tings you not suppose to do, den you cut yoaself off from God. But get one nodda deal dat God get fo you. he like give you someting dass plenny good - da real kine life dat stay to da max foeva. An you get dis wen you stay tight wit Jesus Christ, our Boss.
Now, there are no curse words in here, but there’s definitely “cultural context” in the verse. It’s not really a totally different language, like Chinese or Russian. There’s some sort of crossover there, but I’m not sure what it is. How “cultural” must we be before we compromise the Gospel and hurt (or help) our message to others?

On the back of the book, a quote from a reader says “The English Bible speaks to my head, but the Pidgin Bible speaks to my heart”.

We’re off track again, so… sorry, Tim. This topic seems to bring out a lot of opinions.

bill


38. Brendt
May 22, 2006
6:04 PM

Tim, be very frightened because I apparently was thinking along similar lines as you. I read your review and came away with the impression that you stated in this post — largely positive, with some reservations.


39. Brian Thornton
May 22, 2006
6:50 PM

Hi Bill,

I understand what you are saying, but I must say that the example of pigdin is nothing but - as you described it - English slang…much like ebonics would be, I imagine.

I fear that the person who is quoted on the back of this pigdin thing who said the English Bible speaks to his/her head, but the pigdin one speaks to his/her heart has never had the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit on his/her life.

If the verse you cited is any indication of the rest of the pigdin version, I would have to say that it is not the Bible. Now, I am not trying to critique this pigdin version, but since you used it, let’s look at the difference between it and the ESV on Romans 6:23…

pigdin - Dis da deal: Wen you do da tings you not suppose to do, den you cut yoaself off from God. But get one nodda deal dat God get fo you. he like give you someting dass plenny good - da real kine life dat stay to da max foeva. An you get dis wen you stay tight wit Jesus Christ, our Boss.

ESV - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The first thing I notice about the comparison is that the pgidin version has removed the wages of sin being DEATH.

But, as with much of evangelicalism today, It lines right up with today’s gospel presentations from churches all across the country…No Law, only a self-help gospel that pushes felt-needs self-betterment.

Now we are WAY off topic…sorry!


40. Van H. Edwards
May 22, 2006
7:33 PM

Maybe it’s time to shut the comments down again. These are starting to sound strangely similar to the other ones.


41. david
May 22, 2006
7:46 PM

Jerry,

I removed your comment because of your use of unnecessary vulgarity.

Now, even though I am weary of doing so, I am going to answer the tired old allegation concerning the apostle Paul’s language.

  1. Paul said nothing more vulgar than manure. Just because you can replace that with a vulgar term doesn’t mean you should.
  2. When Paul hyperbolically suggested that the Judaizers emasculate themselves for pushing circumcision, he did not graphically describe the act using obscene euphemisms for genitalia.

Jesus didn’t have a dirty mouth, and neither did Paul.


42. wfseube
May 22, 2006
8:56 PM

Brian wrote: much like ebonics would be, I imagine.

Hehe…that was precisely what came to my mind originally; that’s why I brought up Da Jesus Book. I’ll save further discussion for another thread on another day so david doesn’t have to swoop in and shut us down :-)

bill


43. david
May 22, 2006
9:01 PM

You guys be funny.


44. donsands
May 22, 2006
9:26 PM

“Jesus did not have a dirty mouth, and neither did Paul”.

Amen. And another amen. We, the Lord’s people are being conformed into His image, to the praise of the glory of His grace. And this includes the way we speak. Will we ever graduate to the degree of our Lord Jesus Christ? No. However, we can strive in His grace, by faith, to live in the same sacrificial manner. And we can continually grow in the grace and knowledge of who he was and is, and become more and more like our Savior. This is one of God the Father’s promises, to conform us into the image of His Son.


45. Tim Challies
May 22, 2006
9:40 PM

“More troubling to me were many of the comments and (now) what appears to be unnecessary and contradictory backpeddling on Tim’s part.”

I dont backpeddle. I either stick with what I believe or I repent and move on.

I’m going to lock this one here since I don’t think there will be much use in keeping comments open.