Public Schooling and Self-Fulfilling Prophecies
I spent some time this weekend reading Al Mohler’s forthcoming book, Culture Shift (set for a mid-January release). In an endorsement of this book, John Piper writes, “Albert Mohler is a steady guide, unremittingly clear-headed.” This is a fair assessment. Anyone who reads and enjoys Mohler’s blog, will find this book is more of the same—commentary from the junction of faith and culture. In fact, many of the book’s twenty chapters are based upon Mohler’s previous commentary at his blog. It is a good book and one I benefited from reading. It has given me a lot to think about and, as you’ll see today, plenty to write about.
In June of 2005, Mohler wrote an article titled “Needed: An Exit Strategy” and discussed the issue of public education and the Southern Baptist Convention. At that time, for the second year in a row, a resolution was “submitted to the denomination’s Committee on Resolutions, calling for Christians to reconsider support for the nation’s public school system.” Dr. Mohler begins with this article and adapts it in the ninth chapter of Culture Shift. Here he says “Christians parents are increasingly aware that the public schools are prime battlegrounds for cultural conflict. Given the deep ideological chasm that separates the worldviews and expectations of many educators from those held by many parents, we should not be surprised by the vitriolic nature of this conflict.” He believes that the near future of public education will prove increasingly hostile to Christians and traditional values.
Examples of the downgrade of public education abound. He provides several examples. For example, he writes about King & King, a parable of homosexual marriage in which a young price decides he wishes to marry his true love, which in this case is another prince. This book has been read to seven year-olds in Massachusetts. He writes also of children who were sent home with “diversity book bags” to help teach that there is no such thing as a “normal” family and that all family structures are equal in value. And he writes of the national “Day of Silence” now supported in many high schools—a day organized by homosexual activists. These are not just extreme and isolated examples but are, more and more, becoming common.
“The breakdown of the public-school system is a national tragedy,” he writes. “An honest assessment of any history of public education in America must acknowledge the success of the common school vision in breaking down ethnic, economic, and racial barriers. The schools have brought hundreds of millions of American children into a democracy of common citizenship. Tragically, that vision was displaced by an ideologically driven attempt to force a radically secular worldview.” What was once one of America’s great strengths is now beginning to lead to her moral breakdown.
Because of these factors, Mohler believes that it is time for Christians to leave the public school system and that homeschooling and Christian schooling are alternatives all Christian parents should consider. Those who are not yet ready to make the move should, at the very least, have an exit strategy in place. In his original article, Mohler writes this:
I believe that now is the time for responsible Southern Baptists to develop an exit strategy from the public schools. This strategy would affirm the basic and ultimate responsibility of Christian parents to take charge of the education of their own children. The strategy would also affirm the responsibility of churches to equip parents, support families, and offer alternatives. At the same time, this strategy must acknowledge that Southern Baptist churches, families, and parents do not yet see the same realities, the same threats, and the same challenges in every context. Sadly, this is almost certainly just a matter of time.
In the book he changes the statement only to increase the scope from Southern Baptists to all Christians. It is time, he believes, to leave the schools. Or at the very least, it is time for parents to consider the alternatives and what factors would drive them to these alternatives.
As I’ve indicated in the past, Aileen and I choose to place our children in public schools. We do not do so lightly and certainly not without some trepidation. Yet, because of factors I’ve outlined elsewhere, we feel this is the best thing we can do right now. Every year we re-evaluate. While we do not have a firm exit strategy, one that says “precisely under these conditions we will withdraw from the public schools,” we do keep a close eye on what our children are being taught and do not take for granted that they will remain in the public system indefinitely. We benefit, I believe, from our province’s highly-regulated system where the curricula are consistent throughout the entire system. We benefit also from knowing teachers and from pressing them to understand what children are being taught and what ideology is behind it. We have been very pleased with almost all of the teachers we’ve met so far.
If the time comes that we feel it would be right to take our children out of the public education system, I will be left with two great and related concerns I would need to reconcile. The first is this. If all of the Christians withdraw from the public schooling system, it seems to me that we lose our ability and even our right to speak to that system and to influence it. Though the political system is terribly corrupt, Christians continue to be involved and continue to vote, knowing that only in this way will we have any influence. Yet in the schooling system many wish to withdraw. But when we do so, I fear, we lose any right we might have to correct or influence. As Christians we look to better not only our own lives, but the lives of those around us. We look to be a transformative influence. If schools truly are “prime battlegrounds for cultural conflicts,” as Dr. Mohler states, why would we purposely remove ourselves from them? Why would we give up and retreat from this battleground? If this is where the hearts and minds of generations of citizens will be formed, why would we take no interest in it? If we retreat, we lose our voice.
And from there I think we will see as well that the downfall of the public education system becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. When I look at the examples Dr. Mohler provides—examples of all kinds of ugly things that happen in the public schools, I realize that things in Canada do not seem so bad. Canada is a very liberal nation and, by rights, it should be in worse shape than in America. Yet I do not see that this is the case. Yes, there are occasional stories that strike fear in this parent’s heart, but it seems that our education system is less corrupt than that of our neighbors to the south. And I can’t help but wonder if this owes to the fact that fewer Canadian Christians have exited the public schools. While the homeschool movement, following the American trend, is beginning to catch on in Canada, and while it seems that homeschooling is fast becoming the favored or even the default option for conservative Christians, this is largely a recent development. With Christian schools notoriously underfunded and overpriced, and with homeschooling not an option many believers have even considered, most Canadian Christians have kept their children in public schools. They have maintained their voice and their influence. When all the Christians leave, we would expect the schools to decline. And perhaps this is what we are seeing in the United States. Perhaps Christians are inadvertently contributing to the decline.
I wonder sometimes about a “Genesis 18” principle. In Genesis 18 we read of Abraham interceding for Sodom and for his people in that city. “Then Abraham drew near and said, ‘Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?’” Abraham asks God, pesters God even, whether God will preserve the city for the sake of the righteous. Will God preserve the city because His people are in it? God answers in the affirmative. And is it possible, I wonder, that the Canadian system has been preserved more than its American counterpart because God’s people have remained there? Perhaps this is a long shot; perhaps I am abusing the text and the principle it teaches; but I can’t help but wonder. Would we not expect God to preserve an institution where His people are present and are attempting to make inroads for His glory?
At any rate, Aileen and I continue to keep our children in public schools and continue to wonder if the day will come when this is no longer something we can do in good conscience. I believe that Dr. Mohler is right and that we will need to arrive at an exit strategy. Yet I hope this is never a strategy we need to put into action. I hope and pray that Canadian Christians will find that they can continue to place their children in public schools and that, as parents, they can continue to serve within the schools, to make their voices heard, and to positively influence this prime cultural battleground for the glory of God.


Comments (79) »
1. Robert Williams
December 17, 2007
10:54 AM
I am more concerned about what my children would not be taught, i.e., “Jesus is Lord”.
I think the story of Sodom is very important. Based on what you’ve written above, only Lot had the “ability and even [the] right to speak to that” city. Yet we know what it cost him - namely, his family.
Was Lot’s presence in Sodom something that preserved Sodom, or something that corrupted him, his wife, and his daughters?
Abraham, from the outside, was the only one in a position to intercede with God for the righteous within the city. Lot, who was righteous and was grieved by the wickedness around him, lost everything.
2. Rob Edwards
December 17, 2007
11:09 AM
Tim: Thanks for your thoughtful response to this very emotionally-charged issue.
Both of our children are in public school, partly because of the cost of private school, but largely because the local public elementary school is quite excellent. Through active involvement in the PTA and other events at the school, we have a platform for ministry.
I struggle to reconcile Christ’s command to be salt and light with withdrawing from the culture we are commanded to penetrate.
3. omo
December 17, 2007
11:10 AM
I believe in christians staying in public schools. I think it is very interesting that we will consider going to countries who are anti the Gospel, and anti the Christian message, and yet can not see the mission field of students, parents, administrators and school officials right in our midst. I attended public schools my entire life, went to a top name university and am a pretty strong believer. How did this happen? I believe it is because my parents were very involved in my education and closely monitored my friends and activities. So I really see a need to go into schools and engage people. We have to bring the gospel to people instead of retreating into our “sage christian bubble”.
4. Dan Hall
December 17, 2007
11:18 AM
Thank you, Tim, for your thoughts on this issue. I think I would agree with you if the arena we were talking about was one dealing with strong, solidly grounded, not easily influenced to wrong thinking, adult (or mature young people) Christians. It is hard enough for an mature, solidly grounded Christian to be influential and to stand for the gospel in the “secular” work place, but I think we need to be careful putting our children in places of tremedous spiritual and mental harm with the thought that they will be “salt and light” or little evangelists.
I grew up in a Christian home, and started following Christ at a young age. I was public schooled in California for my entire education and I kept the faith. I have heard of many stories of children making tremendous impacts for Christ and His kingdom in their schools. I would not deny those stories or my own experience, but I also have heard many stories (some I know personally) of schools making tremendously negative impacts on good “Christian” children. I believe there may be ways we can be influences in public education without placing our young, developing minds in harms way.
Also, a huge part of our influence and voice in the public schools comes from the tax money our schools receive when our children are in them. Remove the students and the you remove the money that school gets. Money talks. Obviously, our taxes are still going into public education (I don’t pretend to fully understand the whole tax flow) which is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Tim, I appreciate you and your wife’s example of parents whom are highly involved in their children’s education in the public schools. It is clear that you take this issue seriously.
5. Ben Stevenson
December 17, 2007
11:22 AM
If Christians removed their children from public schools, there would still be two ways for Christians to influence the public schools.
1. Adult teachers - Christians who teach in public schools are in a good position to think Biblically about the curriculum, and argue for changes.
2. Set a better example - If Christian children were homeschooled or went to Christian schools, then Christians could have a chance to set an example of how education can be done in a better way then is done in public schools. Homeschoolers generally get better academic scores than public schooled children. If we want to influence debate about how public schools should be, we could point to the success of alternatives.
6. HeatherC
December 17, 2007
11:40 AM
Tim -
I read your blog almost daily, but have never posted before. Your education commentary always interests me, because we homeschool, and have done so for 11 years. I am graduating one son this year, and the other 2 are late elementary and early high school ages. (By the way, I live in Lanark County, and attend church with your aunt. )
I am thinking that the quality of education throughout Ontario is uneven — you are fortunate to live in a possibly “good” school district, where the teachers are good, and approachable. Our experience was more uneven, shall we say? The main thing we ran into quite early on was the whole “active boy” problem. Our first son was (and is) quite bright, a deep thinker, and the system didn’t tolerate him well. His grade 1 teacher wanted him assessed for ADD, we took him to a psychologist, who happily designated him ADD, and recommended Ritalin and all kinds of other ways of “coping with him” that, in our view, would only have ended up shortening his attention span even more. The school refused to take him back without Ritalin (which we tried for a brief period — and it changed our mentally active 6 year old into a shadow of his former self), so we brought him home. We got rid of TV, limited computer access, and began reading, reading, reading and talking, talking, talking, and ensuring that this boy and our two others had lots of physical activity. By the way, the school he was in was in high tech Kanata, so it wasn’t a “rural failure”, if you know what I mean. When our other two boys came of school age, there was never a question of them going. It has been a hardship to homeschool — financially, (I am an RN, and went back to work part-time 5 years ago to help), socially (I have much less time for “socializing” for myself — my boys are not short of “social activities” at all….), and in other ways. But it has been worth it. My ADD kid has been doing a course in “Great Ideas” for the past year, and has read (and written on) Augustine, Plato, Aristotle,John Calvin, C S Lewis, theology, etc. He is reading Thomas Aquinas in his spare time! He is very interested in film, and blogs on what he sees, and has sometimes heated discussions with his friends about what he sees….
The list of (subjective) symptoms or whatever you want to call them of ADD are very close to the list of qualities of a gifted child. Schools in our area (and I would venture to guess, in most areas) don’t deal well with kids who don’t fit the mold. The middle of the range is largely what they aim for. Schools also do not deal well with boys — in our area, kids are forbidden to play at recess in groups greater than 3, they can’t play fight (knights, cowboys, all that stuff that boys love), they can’t do much to release their energy. Over and over girls are held up as their example to emulate — be quiet, sensitive, etc.
I do hear what you’re saying about there being no Christian influence at all in the public school system if all Christians were to pull their kids — but I do not think that Christians “sacrificing” (in a matter of speaking) their kids to the system is the best way to deal with that. Maybe we need to think about contributing Christian adults to the system — teachers, maybe even volunteers. (When my boys have all “graduated” from homeschool, I will be looking for things to do with some of my time)
There — that’s my long, involved comment for today. I probably won’t do this often, but homeschooling is an issue that is near and dear to my heart…..
7. Marty O. Wynn
December 17, 2007
11:43 AM
Tim, I stumbled across your blog during last year’s Shepherd’s Conference (MacArthur). I have enjoyed reading material since then.
Concerning the proposed exit strategy from the government schools, I would have to agree with Dr. Mohler. Like several of the previous comments, I too am a public school product. However, the public schools that I attended no longer exist. The dress codes, biblical adherence and moral standards would make the schools of my day illegal.
The responsibility for the educating of the child is incumbent upon the parents and those the parent enlist for aid in instructing the child. Parents must train and educate the child. Yes, it is within biblical parameters to enlist teachers in the educational program (cf. Gal. 4:1-2). However, the point is that children must be trained and educated for life and spiritual service.
The argument that we must not yield the “battleground” of the government schools is folly. No soldier is sent to battle prior to being trained for combat. The battleground should be occupied by trained soldiers. Until a child becomes trained, he/she is not ready for battle.
To place an impressionable child in the battle for his mind, while his mind is still developing, is a mistake. I do agree that there are young people who make a strong stand for Christ in the government schools. However, they are the rarity. The scores of children who have been arrested by the world’s philosophy and chosen the path of the world, make the gamble on government education an unworthy endeavor.
It is equally fallacy to believe that a withdrawal for the government schools will equal no input on those schools. Government schools are funded by tax-payer funds. Any tax-paying citizen has a right to influence and impact the school system and its philosophy. A parent who decides to protect his children by withdrawing them from the government school, does not forfeit his rights as a tax-paying citizen.
Just something to think about.
8. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
December 17, 2007
12:04 PM
in the schooling system many wish to withdraw. But when we do so, I fear, we lose any right we might have to correct or influence. As Christians we look to better not only our own lives, but the lives of those around us.
My fear is that this mentality sacrifices our own children for the purposes of some future change in the school systems. Can we not influence and correct without the detriment to our own kids? I don’t know. I think my first priority is to my own children, and as such, we will continue to homeschool.
I must agree with Mohler on this issue.
9. Dana Wilson
December 17, 2007
12:11 PM
My husband and I disciple our children at home. It is a fearful thing to be entirely responsible for their spiritual, moral and academic training. It is also the only option we can consider as biblical Christians (Dt. 11:18-20). Delegating this responsibility is entirely out of the question, as we will be called to give an account (Rom. 14:11-13) and putting these children in the position of being taught anything other than God’s sovereignty and Christ’s lordship, potentially causing them to stumble, carries dire consequences (Mt. 18, Mk. 9, Lk. 17).
We don’t have to sacrifice our children’s childhood to secular indoctrination in order to have influence in the public school. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms (Eph. 6:12). Failing to appreciate the effectiveness of the fervent prayers of the righteous is a mistake far too many Christians make, to our great shame (James 5:16).
Abraham didn’t live in Sodom when he interceded for it. Lot CHOSE that area (Gen. 13:10-11) and didn’t have sense enough (faith enough?) to leave before the destruction was imminent. The simple wickedness of the place was not enough to drive him out, or drive him to the Lord (as far as we know) to intercede for his own chosen city. He left with his own hide and lost all that was dear to him. Applying this principle to public education is grievously apt.
Public education should not be an option for Christians who affirm Christ’s declaration that “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” (Mt. 12:30). The years of childhood are far too short for our children to waste even a moment under the tutelage of one who doesn’t fully affirm all biblical truth and disciple them to Truth, Himself. Assuming this grave responsibility is incumbent on every Christian parent. Shirking this responsibility, bowing to the idol of secular academic training, may have dire consequences that our children and grandchildren will bear. Consider that the amount of compromise you undertake with trepidation will be the normal standard for your children, who will then, following the example of the priest of their childhood home, undertake a deeper level of compromise with trepidation, as compromise with trepidation is the heritage they were given.
10. Paul
December 17, 2007
12:21 PM
I think that there are legitmate arguments for both sides, and that it should be taken on a case by case basis.
That being said, an argument from Genesis 18 doesn’t make much sense to me. First Abraham is the one who interceded for Sodom not Lot. Abraham was not in the city Lot was. In fact, the Scriptures seem to reveal that Lot was foolish for getting closer and closer to the cities. Additionally, Genesis 19:29 reveals that God spared Lot from his wrath b/c of Abraham’s intercession. So I am not sure what this “Genesis 18 principle” is, or how it applies. God detroyed the cities despite Lot’s presence, and He saved Lot b/c of the intercession of someone outside the city. If anything this seems to be arguing in the opposite direction.
It is quite probable that I am missing something, and thus I am very open to someone helping me to see things correctly.
11. donsands
December 17, 2007
12:22 PM
“Would we not expect God to preserve an institution where His people are present and are attempting to make inroads for His glory?”
Yes, I would. The church needs to be in the world, but not of it. However, some Christian families may not be called to walk in the tare field as wheat. And they need to be spared going to public school. Homeschooling is a fine system, as are private schools, if one can afford them. But other Christian families may have to settle for public school, and I believe in this case God will supply an extra portion of grace where they can walk with righteousness and boldness in the tare field. These will shine and be salt. So, we need to pray for the Church; that portion that does go into the public school system with boldness and Christ’s love. For the world will hate them, and will pull out all the stops to defeat these soldiers for Christ. But if God is for us, who can be against us?
Nice post. We need more heros like the Hebrew Chilren in Daniel, who said, “We will not bow”.
12. PuritanD
December 17, 2007
12:25 PM
Tim,
It is a great issue that needs to be discussed and thought through by all parents. I and my wife are products of the public school system. We were going to have our kids in public school as well until we met the Christian kids that went to the schools and I am talking Jr. and Sr. High school.
I was a bit shocked and perplexed that so many of the kids would quickly believe what their teacher states is truth over the Bible. One study we did with the Jr. High class was in regard to dating non-believers. They all said that this would be fine because we should all be tolerant of everyone’s belief. This took me back and sadden me deeply that a biblical understanding was severely lacking and when taught it, the kids rejected it outright. This is just one of several incidents where the authority of the Bible was either rejected or down played in its significance.
One person pointed out that adult Christian teachers can have an impact. Here in the states, it truly depends on the school district and laws that govern the state one resides. Our senior pastor was on the school board of one district in which they had no choice but to pass a certain pro-sexual agenda though many on the board opposed it because it was the law in the state.
Several people from my church work in the school system and are terrified to speak up for Christ for fear of loss of employment or being marginalized. I personally think it is a wrong train of thought here by these people, but try to understand their position. On the other hand, one of my siblings is a teacher in the public school and has very little freedom in what she uses to teach.
I do wonder about the pulling out of children from public school. Is it not similar to the reformation and Luther and Calvin pulling away from the Catholic church? When is enough, enough? It is not like Christians have not try to interject into the realm of public school or just fell asleep at the wheel. Many have fought tooth and nail seeing that their voices are being drowned out or completely ignored. We urge and encourage Christians to remove themselves from unorthodox denominations, why not the dysfunctional public school system.
The Puritans started Yale long ago because they thought that Harvard was too liberal. Is not homeschooling/ Christian schools something of a similar vain?
13. Chuck Thomas
December 17, 2007
12:33 PM
Tim: As usual, your comments are thoughtful and thought provoking. As a parent of kids who have successfully complete their college educations, I can still appreciate the angst that parent of school-age children are experiencing with respect to the issue where/how they should be educated.
We utilized both public and private Christian education, so we have seen the good and ill of both systems. Our kids attended public schools for the early years and a private Christian high school. It was costly, (out of pocket) but I think the education was both good and well grounded. And the quality of friendships they made in high school (friends they still maintain, even after college) are extraordinary…what a blessing.
Not having the benefit of seeing the larger context of Dr. Mohler’s book, I still like his suggestion of an “exit strategy.” While contending for the faith in all circumstances, even in secular institutions, is a part of our larger call to evangelism, there are instances when exiting may be the correct move. You mention the so-called “Genesis 18 principle.” That is a good passage in support of the angle of “contending”. But Jesus also taught what could be called the “Matt 10:13-14 principle.” Even after Jesus had given his disciples authority to drive out evil spirits and heal diseases and sickness, he instructed them to leave a home or town if the residents were not found to be worthy or welcoming. In essence, Jesus gave specific instructions for an “exit strategy.” Perhaps when we conclude that public education is not worthy or welcoming, (or worse yet, downright hostile to Christian values) it is indeed time to leave.
And related back to your Genesis 18 example, I find it interesting that in vs. 15 Jesus refers to Sodom and Gomorrah.
14. Scott D. Andersen
December 17, 2007
12:39 PM
Tim,
Thanks for being strong enough to discuss an emotional topic. Concerning our children and God’s directive to us as believers on how we should bring them up in then nurture and admonition of the Lord there are always fervent expressions. May God keep you strong.
As I read your article I thought also what several have said that since we continue to pay for public schooling with our taxes at least in principal we have lost no right to influence or correct the public schools. From a practical view point we as believers who have withdrawn from public school, may be less inclined to be actually correcting and influencing. But nevertheless the duty and right to continue to influence and correct remains.
15. MrPages
December 17, 2007
12:52 PM
Ben has some good thoughts.
From two points:
1) Where is our call to “influence public schools” ?
I don’t understand the automatic reaction that “not being able to influence public schools” is a tragic issue. Why is it bad not to have power over something? We have become too accepting of the common misbelief that Christians must “rise up and take power” to influence the world. Influence by example is far more powerful than influence by legislation. Show the world that it can be done properly in a different way with dramatically successful results. They’ll come asking.
2) Why are we sacrificing our children in order to wield power?
The need to hold sway over the schools has blinded us to the fact that we are immersing our children, our not-fully-formed still learning soaking in everything like sponges children, into a worldly, family-hostile environment. Every time you break kids into age-groups to do things you inform them that doing things with siblings is unacceptable. Every time you make age-peers their only social contact for 8 to 10 hours a day, it will affect their concept of the world. Thinking you can immerse your child in a non-Christian environment for learning every day and not have it affect them (in worldview, in materialism, in attitude to family and God) is unbelievably naive. Anything you have to deprogram your children from, or “counterbalance” with family time isn’t a healthy choice.
Yep. Emotionally charged debate alright. I’ve read them all, but I still haven’t really seen a tenable defense of those two. I’m more than willing to accept that different people have different calls, and that there are many ways to do this (really, I am), but no one has shown me any sort of argument that makes real sense to me. The majority of arguments (even yours, Tim) come down to “we feel this is best and we are trying to minimize the damage”.
16. Josh R
December 17, 2007
12:57 PM
I believe the proponents of withdrawal argue that our children are not adequately discipled to be able to transform their culture.
It is like sending our raw recruits into our enemies boot camp.
The bottom line is that every parent is responsible for educating their children. It is a biblical mandate. If they delegate that responsibility, they are still going to be held accountable. Some public and private schools will do a decent job, others will not.
I think we are out of line if we are telling parents they should risk failure in one of their prime responsibilities as parents in order to gain some minor democratic influence in a secular institution.
If we want to influence the battleground, there are lots of ways to do it that don’t involve sacrificing our kids. Schools need volunteers, they need teachers, they need coaches, they need money. Veteran Christians can fill these roles, and do a much better job at influencing then our untrained children will ever do.
Pulling our children does have an economic effect on the school Economics tend to drive decisions with more finality than any other political force. Also if private and home schooled children constantly out perform public school kids, there will be increased pressure for them to shape up.
17. Joel
December 17, 2007
1:13 PM
If you think homeschoolers have lost a voice and influence, do a google search on Huckabee and homeschoolers.
18. Brett
December 17, 2007
1:23 PM
I am not yet a parent, but I see both Mohler’s and Challies’ point of view. I went to public schools and they were/are indeed corrupt, but from high school on public school was an awesome place to live and share the Gospel. I come from a single-parent home and so homeschooling wasn’t even an option.
I also have spent time observing the public education system both formally, in an Ed-11 class, and informally. The majority of what is pushed on elementary school children is self-esteem, Self-esteem, SELF-esteem. That is not to say every public school is equally polluted with this sinful and foolish teaching, but it is definitely encouraged.
My thought at this point, if God allows and it still seems the best option, is to homeschool through elementary and ESPECIALLY middle school, and then if they are game, put them in public high schools. Middle school was nothing but depravity on ice for me, and many teachers of that bracket are as miserable being there as the students. That way hopefully my children will be mature enough to counter what it is they face in public schools, and will still be able to have an impact during a time that matters most. Just a thought, but who knows…
19. ReformedMommy
December 17, 2007
1:24 PM
As a child growing up in a very poor family, public school was our only choice. Today, we are blessed to have the means to send our children to private Christian schools, but what are the options for those who do not? Furthermore, if the issue is one of control or governance, where are the churches willing to establish Christian-based schools and open their doors (ie reasonable to no cost) to both believers and non as the Catholic church has done for hundreds of years? And where are the arguments to the government to release the public money spent so outrageously poorly on government funded education back to parents to spend as we see fit? A pure “exit” strategy as described seems incredibly self-centered …
20. RKF
December 17, 2007
1:48 PM
Tim,
I have to echo the sentiments of others that is not up to the children of Christian parents to be active evangelists within the school system. Even assuming (big assumption) that most will grow up into Bible-believing adults few are saved at so young an age that they can be well equipped for this task. I like the previous analogy of sending new recruits into the enemies boot camp - but how many can say their young ones are saved (therefore ready to be equipped) at grade school age?
I do agree that parents can influence the system a small degree while their children are enrolled, but I am not convinced that the risk / cost of placing children in that ungodly environment is worth the small measure of impact. I think the previous commenter was right in saying that adult believers are in a better position to make a positive impact by being teachers or taking some other role in the system.
We still have not decided between home school, public or private education - but the arguments outlined here haven’t swayed me toward public education at all.
21. Susanna
December 17, 2007
1:48 PM
My thoughts, short and sweet:
Whether you decide to do public schooling or homeschooling, BE INVOLVED, THERE PARENTS in your children’s lives and coupled with a godly upbringing, the chances of success in your children’s lives, including their education, are great!
22. Ted Striker
December 17, 2007
2:04 PM
Well said, Tim. We share your views exactly. Press on.
23. Steve
December 17, 2007
2:37 PM
The public schools declined when the public ideology declined.
Sadly, it seems that too few private schools rise above the public system. Academics reign supreme, instead of Christ. I’ve seen this too in home-schooling.
Christians pull children from the public system because of bad ideology, but they far too often do not thoroughly and passionately teach the supremacy of Jesus Christ as the way to see every subject and issue and problem.
The supremacy of Christ is attached to the curriculum instead of being the curriculum. Christ is the Lord of math and science and history, etc.(Colossians 1:15-20).
Christian educators (and curriculum writers) make the mistake of inserting Christ wherever He seems to fit, rather than inserting math or science or history where they rightly fit into teaching the Kingdom of God.
24. Charity
December 17, 2007
3:05 PM
Tim,
THanks for a thoughtful post. The American education system both private and public is also uneven. There are places like Mass. and California where children are fed information like the book King and King that you mentioned. There are also states, such as North Carolina, where I live, with largely conservative (although this is changing in North Carolina, especially Raleigh) populations that dont have many of these particular view points in their cirricula. And nearly every school system in the country has a Mothers prayer group (I forget what its called) that meets weekly to pray for the school system. We cant forget the influence of prayer!
I taught in Christian schools for 8 years and found them to suffer largely the same problem. Some are better than others academically and theologically.
I disagree with Mohler’s position. There needs to be a more enthusiastic participation by families in the public school system, and we need to view it as an outlet for ministry as well as an opportunity for us to teach our children how to lead God glorifying lives in a messed up and fallen world AND how to evangelize in light of that condition. If we withdraw ourselves from that, it will be a spectacular loss for the kingdom of God and we will ultimately answer for that when we stand before the Lord.
25. Momala
December 17, 2007
3:16 PM
Thank you for your stand on Christians in public schools. My oldest is graduating from High School this year and I have 3 younger kids, all have been in public schools from day one. I have to tell you that the awful things we often hear about public schools in the US are not true to ALL schools here.
We live in Wisconsin and have not had those kinds of problems in our local schools. In fact, tonight we are going to the High School/Middle School CHRISTMAS concert. A few years ago, the music teacher sang a solo of O Holy Night. In grade school, my 13yo son sang a solo in Go Tell It On The Mountain. Yesterday at church, my 8yo said that two of the Christmas songs we sang he had learned in music class (including Hark The Herald Angels Sing) When my oldest son took a class called History of the Modern World, they discussed the Reformation and watched the movie Luther. (His teacher is a Christian, and has his own kids in our schools.) These are just a few of the many, many examples I could give.
All this, I believe, is because we have so many Christians involved in our school system. We have had Christians on the school board, so many Christian teachers that I’ve lost count, and lots of involved Christian parents. And the Christian teachers that I know also have their kids in the schools.
I agree that our schools would suffer tremendously if all the Christians left, and the only way to fight any of the battles that may come our way is to stay involved. My husband often says “That which the Church abandons goes to hell” Thank you for your stand.
26. Matt Foreman
December 17, 2007
3:23 PM
At the risk of alienating the masses - I find Mohler great at diagnosis, but weak on prescription.
27. Eric
December 17, 2007
3:41 PM
A Godless education is a Satanic education. Period. Lord willing I won’t have satans minions raising my kids.
28. maria
December 17, 2007
3:44 PM
I probably am echoing the sentiments of most of the commenters on this blog post already, but as someone who was raised in the homeschool “system” I thought I may be able to weigh in on a slightly different level.
Also, before I reflect I reflect on my experience, I think it’s important that we determine what kind of battle we’re fighting. If we want to battle to change the public school system, to take it back to it’s former days of glory, if we want to fight for better legislation on this issue, then we do need to carefully consider the wisdom of retreating. However, if the battle is for people’s souls, then we can do that anywhere, anytime, in any situation the Lord calls us to, homeschooling or not, as long as we are interacting with other people in some way or another. The soul of a neighbor that sees the gospel in the lives of the children next door who are being homeschooled is equal in the Lord’s eyes to the student in the public school system. Also, the soul of my own son or daughter is just as much (if not more!) my responsibility as evangelism to the outside world. And this, the battle for souls, I believe is the battle that the Lord has called us to. His charge to us was to go into all the world and make disciples.
As a young child and early teenager being in the public school system would not have allowed me to make disciples of the other children, it would have corrupted my mind. I was not yet equipped with the love for the gospel that is necessary to effectively impact those around me. I would have fallen prey to the gods of fashion, social position, and academic success. I’m so thankful that my parents kept me at home to ground me and teach me, to make a disciple out of me!
However, when it came time to go to college, I went to Penn State. Now that I was fully trained and grounded, it was time to go into battle. Penn State is one of the largest, most libral universities in the US. I lived in the dorms, I went to class full-time, I worked on campus. With the support of an excellent college ministry that worked closely with my church, I imersed myself in the people, meeting other girls and looking for people looking for the truth. I wrote papers from a christian perspective, I walked around the dorms meeting other girls and again, looking for those that were lost and wanted a savior.
Yes, our education system is a battleground for people’s souls, but it needs to be fought by trained individuals whoe are prepared to meet the challenges and temptations that they will surely face. I know many kids that I grew up with who were in the public school system. Some of them were equiped for those battles, especially in high school, and were able to make a great impact for the Lord. And I know many more who were not.
This issue here is strategy on how to best fulfill the Great Commission, not on a strategy to better educational legislation. I know that as a future (I hope!) mother, my heart is first to make disciples of my own children and then to teach them to make disciples of those around them. The timing of when I send them into battle is totally dependant on the Lord’s work in their heart and their preparedness for the challenges and temptations that they will surely face.
29. Nicole
December 17, 2007
3:59 PM
Thanks Tim for a great post!
I’m not sure Genesis 18 is the best place to argue from, but I still think you’re right in your conclusion. Sending children to a state school is not always about ‘sacrificing’ them or exploiting them as ‘little evangelists’. It can be (and in my case, growing up, it was) about teaching them to relate as Christians to a world that does not know Christ. That includes teaching children how to submit for the Lord’s sake to ‘every authority instituted among men’, how to draw the line when human authorities tell them to disobey God, how to love their non-Christian neighbours and tell them the gospel, how to stand up to the world without fearing it, and without fearing what it fears… These things take a lot of learning, and the trials and opportunities of public schooling can be enormously helpful to us as parents in teaching them to our children.
30. Matthew Cochrane
December 17, 2007
4:12 PM
Tim, I rarely disagree with you but I must take issue with one of your premises here. I believe that only by withdrawing from the public school system will we be able to influence it. Let me explain.
By leaving our children in public schools, like it or not, we are being complicit with the public schools’ actions and decisions. We can complain all we want but until we start withdrawing our children the schools will not take notice. If I’m a customer with a business and I continually complain about their poor quality of service but, continue to do business with them, then I am not going to be surprised to see them make no changes. After all, why should they if they don’t lose any customers over their incompetence. A customer’s greatest influence comes by leaving that business and taking their business elsewhere.
Until there is a mass exodus of students from the broken and ideaologically-opposed public school system we will not see any changes made. It is only by taking our business elsewhere that others will others will finally notice the lows to which the public school system has sunk to.
31. Tim Challies
December 17, 2007
4:26 PM
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment and who has done so nicely. I know this is a touchy subject and one I almost always regret writing about!
I may take the time later in the week to address some of these comments.
Just quickly though…
By leaving our children in public schools, like it or not, we are being complicit with the public schools’ actions and decisions. We can complain all we want but until we start withdrawing our children the schools will not take notice.If I’m a customer with a business and I continually complain about their poor quality of service but, continue to do business with them, then I am not going to be surprised to see them make no changes.
Is it not the case that you pay tax dollars to the system whether you use it or not? That’s what happens in Canada at any rate. Whether we use the schools or not, we pay towards them. Thus leaving the schools makes no discernible difference to the bottom line of the school boards!
32. Chuck Thomas
December 17, 2007
4:43 PM
Tim: To your last point, taking children out of public schools, while still having to pay taxes to support them, may actually IMPROVE the bottom line of the school board under the current system. There is surely some reduction in cost, while the revenue remains the same.
33. Caleb
December 17, 2007
4:46 PM
Tim, it seems you always get the most comments when you post on the issue of schooling. I attended the same public school from my first year until I graduated high school, and I do not believe that my faith or my education suffered because of it.
I have to disagree with those who say that homeschooling is the ONLY Biblical option. I believe that it is a misapplication of Deuteronomy 11:18-21 and 6:6-8 to say that parents must teach their children everything they learn. These verse are speaking about God’s Law. I think a more faithful application would be that parents must be diligent about teaching their children the specific truths of God that He has revealed in His Word.
This is a decision that each family must make on its own. We must realize that now all schools and school systems are the same so the best decision in one situation is not necessarily the best situation in another situation. We should use wisdom to determine how we can bring the most glory to God in our own situation knowing that we will give an account of how we raised our children. We should be gracious in our attempts to understand the decisions that others make, and we must guard against pride when we think we are holier than the next person because of how we choose to educate our children.
34. PuritanD
December 17, 2007
4:47 PM
Tim,
You wrote, “Is it not the case that you pay tax dollars to the system whether you use it or not? That’s what happens in Canada at any rate. Whether we use the schools or not, we pay towards them. Thus leaving the schools makes no discernible difference to the bottom line of the school boards!”
In one sense, yes, my tax dollars will be used by the school no matter what. However, when it comes to state or federal monies (cannot remember if both or one), the monies received by the district is based on population of the schools. An increase in the amount of students will therefore have an increase in the amount of funds given to the school. Also, if there is a drop in the number of students, this outside funding also drops.
35. Eric
December 17, 2007
4:51 PM
On the other hand, if there is a mass exodus out of public schools, those intent on destroying parental rights (and the ability to homeschool) may kick it into overdrive.
36. Caleb
December 17, 2007
4:54 PM
The second sentence of my last paragraph in comment 33 should read: ” We must realize that not all schools and school systems…” Sorry about that one.
37. Mrs Lavender
December 17, 2007
5:14 PM
Though we chose to homeschool, I think if parents stay involved in their child’s school (public or private) and keep their children, teacher, school, etc in prayer, public or private education can be just as good an option as homeschooling.
Homeschooling is no guarantee that your child won’t be exposed to immorality or godlessness. Especially if you belong to a homeschool support group. Often there are families there with unruly children etc.
You just have to seek the Lord in prayer and ask for wisdom for you and your family.
38. donsands
December 17, 2007
6:20 PM
“A Godless education is a Satanic education. Period. Lord willing I won’t have satans minions raising my kids.”
I disagree with this. There are good teachers in the schools who care about the educating of the children. My sister has taught for over thirty years in Baltimore public schools, and she hates the way things have gone, but she cares for the children, and teaches them to read, write, and spell. There’s no religion class, but she does help the kids grow with their God given abilities. This isn’t Satanic. God allows His children to be taught, and yet he keeps us in His truth through the Church and the parents. Danile and the Hebrew Children in Babylon are examples of how God sovereignly protects His epople in the midst of unbelievers. Surely He does the same today. Of course, there will be those who fall into the world’s grasp, and this is tragic. That’s why we need to be praying for those God has called to be in the public school system.
39. Elizabeth
December 17, 2007
6:50 PM
I’m not going to weigh in on the debate part of this as there are many good arguments out there both here an elsewhere. While I do lean one way on the topic, I realize that one answer does not work for every family, and God gives grace for each situation. We cannot allow this issue to divide churches. Sovereign Grace Ministries realized this temptation very early in their establishment, and they guard against making this a dividing issue within their churches…we must all do the same.
The issue that I do want to address specifically is the notion that some families cannot financially afford to homeschool. In many cases, this is not true. It is true that it is a challenge and there are many sacrifices that must be made to be a single-income family in most parts of the world today. You cannot have whatever you want, whenever you want…that means food, clothing, houses, entertainment, etc. It means less meat, fewer clothes, more hand-me-downs and second-hand items…it means smaller houses. It may mean cutting out certain entertainment like cable, satellite, etc.
For those families that are already single-income families, homeschooling does not have to be expensive…it can be free or pretty close. Check out oldfashionededucation.com and some of the links there. Use your library. Ask relatives for certain books, science things, etc. for Christmas and birthdays.
Anyway, just some ideas…hope this serves some people.
Warmly, Elizabeth
40. Nick Coller
December 17, 2007
6:55 PM
I’m a 19 year old Aussie who’s just completed his first year of a teaching degree (secondary English), works as a teacher’s aide in a year 4 class (elementary) and has been teaching Scripture in several public schools all year. So I’m in a rare position where I’m actively involved with learning about and participating in the education of over a hundred young people, while also being young enough to vividly remember my own educational experiences.
I went to a public primary school, and Christian secondary schools. In every case, it has been my experience that the schooling experience makes little to no difference on a student’s faith - it is almost completely up to that child’s parents and, to a slightly lesser extent, their church and youth group. I’ve had many friends in Christian schools who will be influenced by it for a time, but sadly, will fall away soon after leaving. And you can almost always pick who they will be - the people with the complacent, unpassionate or “Sunday Christian” parents.
It’s exactly the same with my friends from public schooling. If their family is supportive and teaching them the ways of Christ, then they will remain Christian in that setting. Non-Christian kids aren’t always as evil as we may think, and can be influenced quite strongly by our example. Granted, the Australian education system isn’t as far gone as the American one by the sounds of things, but we should never underestimate the power of a good Christian example in the home and the church, and much less how much impact children can have in their school.
Also, while home-schooling may be a viable option for many of the readers here (whom, judging by the quality of comments, I would guess would be mostly highly educated themselves as well as strong Christians), the simple reality is that students being home-schooled by less educated parents are not going to receive as good an education as those who are. I believe we would be much better off raising Christian teachers (as I’m studying to become) to infiltrate that system rather than drawing our children out of it.
41. Penny West
December 17, 2007
6:59 PM
Very interesting. I’m in England and so things are a little different over here - but not much. I trained as a high school teacher and taught in public school for 7 years. During this time I came across articles about home education and as a result decided that should I ever have children they will be home educated. That is just what we have done. The passage you refer to about Abraham interceding for Sodom clearly shows that Abraham was not in that system and so we do not have to be in a system to intercede for it. However, in England, our schools have boards of Governors and they have Community representatives on that board. Members of my church, whose children are now grown, are some of those community governors and can be a positive influence for that school. Is there no such provision in the U.S/Canada? The Bible clearly teaches that bad company corrupts good character and I am not willing to expose my children to bad company, no matter how good a witness this may seem. At this stage of their lives they have enough trouble regulating and training their own characters to be confused and bombarded with more negative influences. For those parents who are not in a position to pay for a school or give their time to home education for financial reasons I would like to see the church take a more proactive approach to enable this to happen for them.
42. Carolyn
December 17, 2007
7:18 PM
Well, best wishes. Perhaps consider talking to middle school parents at your church. That is where the subversion from teachers and curricula heats up here and where non-Christian friendships might have more influence on your child than you would like.
Also keep an eye on your child’s character. Some children have a harder time being “salt and light” as preteens and teenagers than others.
Christian teachers have no obvious voice in our district. I worked there. Canada must be much more tolerant of Christian perspectives/worldviews than the U.S. districts with which I am familiar.
Ours sons are 18 and 20. They are good guys, but it’s been an interesting ride that we would not repeat, if that were allowed!
43. carol czech
December 17, 2007
8:17 PM
Our biggest reason for deciding to homeschool (11 years ago) was the difference we saw between the homeschooled kids and the public schooled kids in our years of volunteer youth ministry. Not in every case of course, but we found that in general, the homeschooled kids were much less likely to be influenced by peer pressure, were more likely to be close to their parents and siblings (even to the point of LIKING their parents when they were teenagers) and were less worldly. We said, “That’s what we want our kids to be like.” I would make the same decision today (after 20 years of youth ministry), but I would add other reasons to my list. I would say, out of our very large youth group, probably 80% of the kids you would not identify as Christians if you were to see them in their public school settings, based on how they dress, the music they listen to, their speech, etc. When they bring friends to church for “outreach” activities, more often than not, a couple years down the road, the friends end up being the greater influence on them, in a negative way. Obviously, this is anecdotal rather than scientific, but I am basing this on 20 years of experience with a very large youth group, with both a suburban and urban population. Most of these kids you would say are from “good” Christian homes. Take it or leave it.
Someone mentioned the “self-esteem” programs that are prevalent throughout the public schools. We have known several young adults who are the products of this mentality and the self-centeredness that results is almost frightening! There seems to be an odd dichotomy: a co-existance of tolerance and inability to see another’s point of view. Maybe it’s an inability to think critically? Not sure. (In our homeschooling situation we are spending a LOT, LOT, LOT of time on critical thinking).
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/022707dnnatstudents.13d51d6.html
Can’t some of the blame for the postmodern mindset in the church, the seeker-sensitive movement and the “feel good/do-as-you-please” emergent movement be laid at the feet of the “You are special” indoctrination that kids receive 6 hours a day? I think it’s really hard to reverse all of that in a couple hours of “quality time” that the parents may have at the end of the day, especially in the older grades. When the kids come home from school and have after-school activities for a couple of hours, homework, church activities, etc., when is there time for the parents to debrief and teach their values? “A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. ” (Luke 6:40) Sobering words for all of us, regardless of our schooling choice (maybe moreso for homeschoolers!!)
Ultimately, the parents are responsible for the spiritual training of their children. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that. One of the biggest benefits of homeschooling is you have their minds for the best hours of the day and, as Deut 6 says, you have the luxury of time to talk about God’s commands “when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.”
44. Trillia
December 17, 2007
9:01 PM
All I really wanted to say is that this conversation is a bit of a breath of fresh air. I am so thankful to read that this discussion of differing opinions is amicable! I was pretty “pro-public school” for many of the reasons Tim mentioned and others until I had a child of my own. He’s just a little guy (17 months) but boy has it changed my perspective. I believe my husband and I are going to homeschool (maybe private and possibly a little cooping). All this to say, I think we would want to be careful not to add to the gospel by saying “you must homeschool” but I think it will be beneficial and I can only say this because I have seen other mothers in my church homeschool and the fruit it is has produced- by the grace of God. On the other hand, I have a heart for those who must go to public school, who may not have a choice, for the kids whose parents wouldn’t care one way or another and I am okay with giving my tax dollars for them. I think I’ll join Mrs. Lavendar and pray that God would intervene and capture the hearts of the lost. Thanks Tim for this post! I love reading your perspectives!! Thanks commenters for being respectful. I normally wouldn’t post on a topic like this but because of your graciousness I thought differently.
45. Hayden Norris
December 17, 2007
9:37 PM
Tim,
I slightly disagree with you on this one. I am a youth pastor that has worked with kids in all three systems and unfortunately the kids in public schools seem to suffer in their faith more than they share their faith. This does not mean that it ‘has to be this way’ just an observation from the front lines.
I agree that sometimes withdrawing is the best option. I sometimes disagree with Dr. Mohler, but on this issue I believe he is right on.
I guess it is just an issue of discernment from family to family. Do you know of a good book on discernment that you would recommend? :)
46. Cheryl
December 17, 2007
10:20 PM
I probably have too many thoughts on this subject to express in a clear manner. However, I’ll give it a try. One is the analogy we’ve heard of the frog in the pot of water where the temperature increases so gradually that the changes are imperceptible and he remains in the water even when it begins to boil. I heard Dr. Sproul recently recount a study that was conducted both in the 40s and in the early 80s. The question posed to educators in both instances was, “What are your biggest challenges?” In the 40s, the responses were “talking out of turn, chewing gum, etc.” In the early 80s, “drugs, alcohol, pregnancy, theft, rape …” To say, “I turned out OK; therefore, my kids will likewise be fine” is ignoring the reality of a gradual (or maybe not-so-gradual) decline that is occurring.
Secondly, I’d like to point everyone to a book written by George Barna: Transforming Children into Spiritual Champions. Relevant to our discussion here are the conclusions that he reached about worldview formation – it’s essentially set by the time a child reaches the age of 9 or 10, and it’s hard to shake this worldview (good or bad) going forward. Therefore, I believe this period is a crucial period for immersing our children in Biblical truth. Giving them opportunities to “practice” their worldview is appropriate later.
… which reminds me of a book I read to my son the other night: “Horton Hatches an Egg” by Dr. Seuss. Of course the book’s main theme was about Horton the Elephant’s faithfulness in sitting on an egg for Maisy the lazy mother bird, while she flew around the world. When the egg finally hatched, Maisy was ready to claim it, but was shocked to find it looked more like Horton than her. While this was not the main point of the story, it convicted me of my struggles with the decision of whether or not to home school our soon-to-be 3 children (who are not yet school age). On one hand, it seems like it would be easier to just go back to work and send them school. But then I ask myself, who do I want them to look like?
I have also been strongly influenced by the message that Voddie Baucham delivered at some Southern Baptist conference in Texas in early 2006, entitled “The Centrality of the Home,” I believe. He cited a couple of studies that had been conducted regarding children of evangelical homes. Specifically, the SBC Council on Family life observed that 88 percent of the children raised in evangelical homes leave church at the age of 18, never to return.
Something’s not working.
But then I have to add the caveat that was given to me by Debra Bell, who spoke at a homeschooling conference we attended in Houston this past June: (in my probably-butchered paraphrase) “Don’t assume that if you homeschool, God will save your kids. If God chooses to save your children, it may be that He used it as a means of dispensing grace to your children.” My big takeaway – God is sovereign; we are dependent on His grace. We have to prayerfully and humbly seek the path of the most unrestricted flow of His grace to our own children.
47. carol czech
December 17, 2007
10:20 PM
One of the best books to read if you are trying to make a decision about this issue is “Schooling Choices: An Examination of Private, Public, & Home Education,” edited by Dr. Wayne House. It has three authors: Dr. David Smith, a public school superintendent, Dr. Kenneth Gangel, a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, who defends the Christian school, and Greg Harris, who argues for homeschooling. Each gives his point of view, receives a response from the two others and then answers his critics. The book does not come to a conclusion, but rather, allows the reader to draw his or her own conclusion.
I believe that it is out of print, but I see that Amazon has some used copies and you may be able to find it at a library as well.
48. candyinsierras
December 17, 2007
10:32 PM
when it comes to state or federal monies (cannot remember if both or one), the monies received by the district is based on population of the schools. An increase in the amount of students will therefore have an increase in the amount of funds given to the school. Also, if there is a drop in the number of students, this outside funding also drops.
My understanding is the same. Schools get funding according to their population. Also, perhaps schools in Canada are not subjected to the funding from corporations that have a definite agenda when it comes to educating the masses, or rather, the whole “school to work” agenda. Does the Canadian school system work with the whole “No Child Left Behind” agenda? I do not know a teacher that is not totally frustrated with the NCSB agenda. It is all about testing, testing, testing, and children have no time to actually learn about different subjects. Teachers teach to the tests, and funding for schools is contingent on how well students test, not how well they actually learn. I think the public education system is beyond corrupt.
49. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
December 17, 2007
10:36 PM
I would like to amend my earlier position which was previously in total favor of homeschooling.
My dream scenario would be one where we primarily homeschool, but if we are having a bad day (or week) with respect to our kids not being respectful or getting their work done, then we could shift over and put them into public school until we were ready to deal with them again!
I say this tongue-in-cheek, but I must confess that I use the threat of sending my kids to public school as a motivational technique when they are misbehaving. I admit that this is probably not something I should be doing.
I would also like to say that I know several very strong Christians who are involved in the public school system, from teaching to coaching to being a administration. My own pastor is bi-vocational, and works full-time in a local elementary school.
I wouldn’t trade their influence on those public school kids for anything!
50. Kim Pina
December 18, 2007
12:23 AM
This discussion is quite timely for me since just this weekend a woman at my church, who does homeschool her young boys, seemed to encourage me to do the same with my now 2-year-old son. I have considered it but was actually more concerned with how I would work part-time from home, teach him and possibly have a second child! I tend to be a little too Martha.
But I have to admit that after working with my church’s youth ministry, many many of the teenagers are too quick to accept what is told/taught at their school whether by teachers or unbelieving peers over what the Bible says. It’s so interesting to me because I ask them, “What makes your science book credible but not the Bible?” and of course, they look at me quizzically and have no answer.
I first and foremost want my son to be equipped in the Word so he is ready to fight all kinds of battles, whether they are at home, with friends, while learning or in his mind. I do believe this is the parents’ responsibility and am doing my best to train him even at his young age.
I do fear that not enrolling him in public school would prevent him from being salt and light; however, I come from an unbelieving family (I was saved at 22 after years of horrible indoctrination and liberal education) so I know he will have plenty of chances to share Christ with his unsaved aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.
But if teenagers in our Christian church are unable to defend their faith, how can I expect a 7-year-old to do the same? And why did I expect Christian teenagers to be different than unbelieving teens - this was my naive mentality once I became a Christian and joined the church. I was quite surprised, to say the least. What makes them look and act and think and walk like their wordly peers? I’ve always attributed that behavior to the parents and family life (i.e. not doing family Bible studies, limiting God talk to church only, etc.) but am starting to wonder whether a bigger influence is the public school where youth spend a large majority of their time.
I definitely have a lot of praying and evaluating to do before making a decision. Thanks for the all the input!
51. Carla Rolfe
December 18, 2007
12:33 AM
Tim,
first, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this yet again, and for allowing the discussion. This is an important decision for every Christian parent, and for many it is posts/articles just like yours (and the following discussions) that go a long way toward helping parents make their decisions.
Numerous factors of course play into this (your local school district, your involvement and/or ability to be involved in your child’s education, the support or lack of support of your church, spouse, extended family, financial situation, etc.), and it’s a very personal decision that each family has to make based on careful consideration and prayer over each of the factors involved.
One of the things I do find striking is that the idea that kids from Christian homes are automatically considered Christian kids (by parents and church youth workers), and will therefore be the salt and light that I think we all agree is desperately needed to make an impact in their local schools. Carol commented here that with her experience working with a large youth group:
” I would say, out of our very large youth group, probably 80% of the kids you would not identify as Christians if you were to see them in their public school settings, based on how they dress, the music they listen to, their speech, etc.”
Keeping in mind this refers to highschool aged kids who have been raised up in Christian homes, for the most part. If they are like this by the time they reach their teen years (and from my own personal experience I would agree that 80% is a pretty fair stat), you have to wonder what their Christian maturity level is at 6, or 10, or 12, in the public elementary school setting. If by 16 they are more easily mistaken for any other unsaved kid (and so easily influenced by the worldly things they face every day), you really have to question the wisdom of having them immersed in such an ungodly surrounding for so many years. It certainly does take it’s toll on them, and I know many Christian parents who through tears, still pray about these decisions years later, hoping the Lord might be gracious to somehow undo the damage done.
While I would certainly say we should consistantly reinforce Christian principles and encourage our children in Christian education (as in family devotions, prayer, Bible reading, discussion, etc.) I would caution against saying these are “Christian kids” simply because they come from homes where the parents are.
Indeed we do homeschool (8 years this month) and we have 7 beautiful children between the ages of 25 and 4. We haven’t “arrived” but we’ve been around this education/parental block enough times to see first hand what it’s like at various ages and maturity levels (with our own kids as well as with others), and it’s been a real eye opener.
Just a few thoughts, for what it’s worth.
52. carol czech
December 18, 2007
1:00 AM
Carla said: “If by 16 they are more easily mistaken for any other unsaved kid (and so easily influenced by the worldly things they face every day), you really have to question the wisdom of having them immersed in such an ungodly surrounding for so many years.” and
” I would caution against saying these are “Christian kids” simply because they come from homes where the parents are.”
Right and right. In addition, someone else mentioned God’s call and sovereignty in each person’s life regarding salvation - schooling choice being completely irrelevent when this is considered.
I’m thinking that the choice of schooling has more of a role in the growth and maturity process and (I’m hoping and praying) to prevent some unwise choices and promote better family relationships. I agree with those in the family-integrated church movement who say that the so-called generation gap and the problems associated with adolecence are the result of sin and need to be dealt with as such rather than indulged as a phase that is a “healthy” part of growing up.
53. Martin James
December 18, 2007
3:58 AM
It is a personal choice.
Our choice was to homeschool them up to the 7th grade and then put them into a good public school.
I personally think that the years leading up to the 7th grade are the most critical years of their spiritual formation.
I do not believe we (christians) are to give up on the public school system. Just like the office of the president, it is worth fighting for.
54. Chip
December 18, 2007
6:26 AM
Tim, 53 comments already - you clearly touched a nerve on this post. My wife and I decided to pull our children from public school this year. We had a variety of reasons for doing so, but primarily the decision was based on issues that we had seen/heard in the school over the prior year. An additional factor was to teach our children biblically. The impact has been dramatic.
We are using a biblical based curriculum and they are in God’s word daily as a part of the largest block of their day. Much more so than when they were in a private Christian school as well (obviously) as when they were in a public school. After beginning homeschooling, I came across the statistic below: 94% of homeschoolers keep the faith and 93% continue to attend church after the high school years. But a shocking 75% to 85% of Christian children sent to public school drop out of church, and do not hold a Christian worldview after high school graduation.
That alone would be a huge factor in making the decision if we were making it again. I would encourage you to try it for a year. I believe that once you have seen first hand the affect it can have on your children’s lives, you would not hesitate to continue.
We are still in the lives of unbelievers. Our children participate in extra-curricular activites with unbelievers. However, our children are not educated by unbelievers with a secular world view.
55. Eric Carpenter
December 18, 2007
8:03 AM
Tim,
I worked in the public school system (in the USA) as a school psychologist for six years. My wife taught high school English and Spanish for eight years. However, we have decided to homeschool our children in order to provide them with a Christ-centered education.
I ask the following question not in an adversarial or argumentative manner. I really just want to know.
When parents send their kids to public school, at a practical level how do they ensure that their children are receiving an education that places Christ at the center? In the USA at least, the best the school system can provide is a secular education for seven hours a day. How does a parent deal with this?
Thanks, Eric
56. Eunice
December 18, 2007
8:24 AM
Our family has done it all…public school, private school and homeschool. Each has it’s strengths and weaknesses. We are back in public school again and this is what I take from our family’s experiences: that parents are ultimately responsible to monitor what their children are being taught and make sure they understand the difference between Christian beliefs and the world’s beliefs. My children and I have had some wonderful conversations in the car on the way to and from school about spiritual issues that come out of something they heard from their teachers in the secular school system.
There is no reason to be afraid of what’s being taught in our public schools. The Bible teaches that He that is in you is greater than He that is in the world. Christians win in the end!
57. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
December 18, 2007
8:47 AM
There is no reason to be afraid of what’s being taught in our public schools. The Bible teaches that He that is in you is greater than He that is in the world. Christians win in the end!
Yes, but how many parents falsely assume that He that is in them is already in their young children, and that they are able and ready to defend that presumed faith out in the world of wolves and haters of God?
58. Paula Bolyard
December 18, 2007
12:46 PM
Eunice said, “My children and I have had some wonderful conversations in the car on the way to and from school about spiritual issues that come out of something they heard from their teachers in the secular school system. “
By sending kids to school, aren’t parents subtly sending them the message that the teachers are smarter than mom and dad? You’ve taught your children everything they need to know from the moment they left the womb, then suddenly, at age 6, they need professionals, because mom and dad can no longer handle the job. Obviously, parents don’t SAY this to their children, I’m just saying that it is the message they may be getting.
Could this contribute to a lot of teenage rebellion? How many teenagers think their parents are really stupid? Did that problem exist when the values of the teachers mirrored the values of the parents (or before there was widespread compulsory education)?
These teachers, who are perceived to be smarter than the parents, are put in authority over the children all day long and their viewpoints reign supreme in the classroom. If the teacher is an unbeliever, the Bible has a lot of words to describe that person. None of those adjectives is a synonym for “wise”.
59. Greg
December 18, 2007
12:47 PM
After beginning homeschooling, I came across the statistic below: 94% of homeschoolers keep the faith and 93% continue to attend church after the high school years. But a shocking 75% to 85% of Christian children sent to public school drop out of church, and do not hold a Christian worldview after high school graduation.
I would certainly not argue for complacency in the education of our children. However, if God is sovereign and will save His elect, can we hold to a belief that our “choice” to homeschool or send to public school will frustrate His plan?
60. Jim
December 18, 2007
1:27 PM
“Is it not the case that you pay tax dollars to the system whether you use it or not? That’s what happens in Canada at any rate. Whether we use the schools or not, we pay towards them. Thus leaving the schools makes no discernible difference to the bottom line of the school boards!”
Not true!!
School boards receive monies on a per capita basis; so much for each student. By removing your students from the pool you have reduced the funding available to them. Granted this will probably only make a small difference.
However, if you look at the issue of schooling from a practical standpoint consider this; how do you compare one hour per day of parental influence with 6-8 hrs of teacher and peer influence? Can you truly impart everything your child needs in one hour a day?
Will you have the energy and determination to debrief you children everyday about the lies they have been taught by the experts? What about the immoral assault they face…will they become numb to course language and filthy jokes? Why do you expect your children to be the missionaries you yourself are not?
61. holmegm
December 18, 2007
1:30 PM
Were your children in a “holiday program” at school this year?
What are your thoughts on what that teaches them?
62. Ben Stevenson
December 18, 2007
7:41 PM
Greg (#59), No one knows for certain that their child will be elect. We don’t know for sure that it is part of God’s sovereign plan to save a particular child. We can trust God, but also have to act in our child’s best interest.
Romans 10:14 says “And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?”
We don’t argue that since the elect will be saved, we have no need to preach to them. Instead, we should share the gospel responsibly and pray. God will save his elect, but we are responsible to do everything we can to preach to the lost. Likewise, if we have children, we have to make wise decisions about what is the best way to bring them up. We cannot use God’s sovereignty as an reason to say our choices don’t matter.
I was public schooled. Public schooling does not guarentee apostacy, and neither does homeschooling guarentee good education. However, if it is an option, I think homeschooling is probably the best choice.
63. Tandy Vaughn
December 18, 2007
8:31 PM
My three children all received their educations in public schools. My two sons have now graduated from public universities and moved into the public workforce. My daughter is a senior in high school. I’m convinced they are strong young Christians today because they learned to work through the many difficult decisions and influences in their formative years with our assistance. The benefit of public schools is that children work through peer pressure, intellectual attacks on their faith, and all kinds of temptations with their parents’ prayerful support while at home. Students in private Christian schools will eventually face these situations but without their parents guidance and without the opportunity for training. Furthermore, my wife is a school teacher, my daughter will become a school teacher, my sister was a school teacher (retired), my aunt and uncle (a bi-vocational pastor) were school teachers (retired), and three cousins are all school teachers. The answer is not an exit strategy, but an infiltration strategy. The Christian Church needs to purposely prepare and send out young Christian teachers into the public school system. This ought to be our same strategy for other public institutions as well. I don’t think Christ is honored and nor are our children made safer by giving ground.
64. Doug
December 18, 2007
11:13 PM
Very thought-provoking post, Tim. I can see good reasons to have an “exit strategy” and I can see good reasons to try to “infiltrate” the schools. There is also the matter of preparing children for university-level education. There are, unfortunately, public school systems that simply don’t have the capacity to prepare children for the best colleges or the most rigorous collegiate programs. I believe the answer for Christian parents is unique to each school system, and each family, and even each child.
65. Scott
December 19, 2007
9:41 AM
I have been a public school teacher for nearly 9 years and view my position as very important. Not only do I teach curriculum to students, but I represent Christ in how I live my life before students. Christian students also have this tremendous opportunity. I have two additional thoughts. First, I think you have to look at the whole system to properly evaluate it. If you are going to consider these examples of Christianity under attack, you must also look at the systems permission for Christian practice. For example, I lead two bible studies every week where Christian students and faculty get together to study the bible, encourage one another, and pray for the school. These types of activities happen across the nation. Second, public education provides a great opportunity for parents to shepherd their children through the perils of life in a sinful world. Sheltering a child through high school does not prepare them for college. Even if they go to a Christian college, they will eventually have to navigate an unsaved world. Teaching young students to do this helps them when they are older and independent.
66. Ralph T.
December 19, 2007
11:55 AM
“Sheltering a child through high school does not prepare them for college.”
I assume this means homeschoolers are sheltered and unprepared for college. My homeschooled 21-year old is about to graduate from a public university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. He is number one academically in his class. His next career move is to get a Ph.D.
My homeschooled 19-year old is in her second year at a public college and she is the editor of the student newspaper. She recently encountered some false teaching in a history textbook regarding the role of the Apostle Paul in shaping Christianity. When that question appeared on an exam, she took the time to explain how Paul was not spreading a different message than what Christ taught. She did that because she said, “The truth needs to be told.” She risked getting a lower grade and actually got some negative remarks from the professor; however, she still got an A in the class.
I think homeschooling prepared my kids for college.
67. Scott
December 19, 2007
12:56 PM
Ralph, congratulations. While I’m not concerned about the academic focus, your child’s demonstration of discernment is probably due to the fact that you did not shelter, or should I qualify that statement with over-shelter your child. I do think that the typical design of homeschool does foster overprotection for kids. But that’s not to say that all homeschoolers do this. My church is full of homeschoolers to intentionally expose their children to challenging situations, but this does not speak for the majority. I think that the public school setting forces students to deal with these issues while the parents are there. To be fair and accurate, this only works when parents fulfill their parental responsibilities. Many Christian parents don’t support their children and this ends up in the same place as overprotection; kids do not take ownership of their faith and they are not able to discern spiritual challenges.
68. Ben Stevenson
December 19, 2007
1:25 PM
We cannot totally escape temptation. Children would face temptation even if they lived alone on a desert island, because their hearts are sinful. But I don’t think that means we take no measures to avoid temptation.
The argument for public schooling made in a couple of posts above (e.g. Tandy Vaughn, #63) is that children are best placed to face temptation with the help of their parents, rather than being isolated and facing temptation alone later on in life. I agree that this many children do withstand the pressures in public school. I got through public school with my faith intact. However, if the figures Voddie Baucham quotes in his talk The Centrality of the Home are correct, most children of Christian parents are leaving the church as the grown up.
I think this argument for public schooling is flawed. A child of 8 or 10 presumably knows less about the Bible than someone of 15 or 18 - especially if parents are taking responsibility to teach the Bible to their children, as Scripture commands:
“These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.” — Deuteronomy 6:6-7
Someone who knows the Bible is better equipped to withstand temptation than someone who does not:
“I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.” — Psalm 119:11
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” — 2 Timothy 3:16-17
As Tim Challies has said: “The Bible is the weapon God gives us to defeat the Devil. By memorizing Scripture I can keep my mind filled with the weapon I need to defeat the temptations Satan throws at me.”
I am not aware that the Bible ever advocates exposing ourselves to temptation as a way to avoid it - kind of like an immunization.
69. SolShine7
December 19, 2007
5:29 PM
Where’s the call for Christians to stand up against the injustice of public schools in low-income areas? Shouldn’t we be on the front lines of helping inner-city kids get equal education opportunities as those in the suburbs?
I’d like to see the Church champion that cause.
70. Ben Stevenson
December 19, 2007
6:23 PM
SolShine7, Some research in the UK suggests that if people in low income are were encouraged to homeschool, they may be able to academically out perform their wealthier peers in public schools.
I would like to see Christian schools be more affordable. Covenant Life School (associated with Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland), for example has a Tuition Assistance Fund to provide aid to families with a demonstrated financial need.
71. Scott
December 19, 2007
10:17 PM
If low income households, which have a high population of single parents (according to the U.S. census) became homeschoolers, they would be no income households. I wonder what percentage of low income earners feel forced to public school while preferring to private or homeschool and what can be done to provide an option to those families.
As for your #68 post, I agree that the Bible doesn’t say to intentionally go out an expose yourself to temptation; because we don’t have to. Temptation doesn’t start out there, it starts when one is carried away by his own desires (James 1:14-15) “Out there” may provide opportunities to be tempted, and in this case, homeschooling can merely serve as a delay to the inevitable opportunity, whereas public schooling would manifest the opportunity while the students is still under the direct care of the parent. As for memorizing Scripture (which is of the utmost importance), wouldn’t it be better for a student to wrestle with temptation when the parent is there and can help their child apply the Scripture they’ve memorized, in other words, learn how to use the sword that they have?
72. Tandy Vaughn
December 20, 2007
12:20 AM
Here is what Robert Parham, executive director of the Baptist Center for Ethics had to say on this issue:
“The anti-public education agenda fits nicely with the anti-women, anti-science, anti-Disney, anti-everything ideology within the SBC,” Parham said. “That agenda runs counter to the best of the goodwill tradition within Baptist life that seeks the welfare of the public square.”
He left out “anti-race”
73. Ben Stevenson
December 20, 2007
6:38 AM
Tandy, I hope you are not taking Robert Parham’s comments seriously. I think many homeschooling mum’s would be surprised to hear that they are anti-women, and Voddie Baucham would be surprised to his that his advocating homeschooling is racist.
74. Tandy Vaughn
December 20, 2007
7:49 AM
I don’t know Robert Parham, but this is what he wrote. I do think that there is an “anti-everything ideology within the SBC” and I do think that there is an anti-race and probably anti-lower socioeconomic level element in the push to pull out of public schools. “Element” by definition does not include every individual.
75. DeeDee
December 20, 2007
1:17 PM