Does Anyone Choose Hell?
Not too long ago, I was faced with the question of whether God is active in sending people to hell, or if he is passive, choosing instead to allow unbelievers to send themselves their through their free will. “God does not send people to hell,” the common saying goes. “They choose to go there themselves.” When reading The Great Work of the Gospel by John Ensor I found that he has also faced this question. Here is his explanation. I found it very convincing.
Several years ago I attended an evangelistic crusade. The preacher wanted to affirm the loving-kindness of Christ and at the same time affirm the reality of hell. The two appeared incompatible to him. So he explained, “God does not send people to hell. They choose to go there.” This statement has a certain attractiveness to it. It affirms the reality of hell but appears to take God off the hook in terms of being personally accountable for the actual damnation involved. But is this a biblically accurate explanation of the tension? I think not. The statement is distorted in several ways.First, it uses the term people in reference to God’s final judgment. The Bible does not generally use the term people with reference to God’s judgment. The term people is used to describe what we have in common with each other as created beings, without any reference to our moral character. We talk of the people in our neighborhood. Our coworkers are people. People make up a crowd gathered in a football stadium, or an entire city or nation—the Chinese people, for example. No moral distinctions are made. Nothing is known or stated about any individual’s moral goodness. It is people we see dying of starvation. We are moved because we see them as fellow human beings made in the image of God.
When speaking of God’s final judgment, the Bible uses a variety of terms that reflects the substance and foundation of or moral nature. We are called the “righteous” or the “wicked.” God’s judgment is not on people but on the wicked. So we read, “The wicked will be cut off from the land” (Proverbs 2:22) and “The Lord’s curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blessed the dwelling of the righteous” (Proverbs 3:33)…
When we hear about a planeload of people dying in a crash, without knowing any of them personally, we grieve. We think of their pain, the sorrow of their families. Suppose, however, that we know what young twelve-year-old Susan knows—that her father, the man in seat 23C, has been molesting her for two years and plans to do so that evening when he gets home. If we did know this, we might weep in relief that a wicked man is no longer alive to destroy an innocent young life. Our ability to sympathize or grieve over someone’s death and judgment is largely guided by this judicial sentiment.
When we speak of God’s wrath coming on people rather than on the wicked, we invariably sense a oneness with them rather than with God. But this puts us in opposition to God and the righteousness of his ways. Therefore, this difference in the language we use is important. We ought to take our cue from the moral and judicial language of Scripture; that God loves the humble but opposes the proud (James 4:6), that he honors the tearful (Isaiah 38:5) but warns the obstinate (Isaiah 30:1), and so forth. The judgments of the Lord are right, true, and truly praiseworthy. The people of God will rejoice when God brings an end to the wicked. This is not beyond our current judicial sentiment. Law-abiding, peace-loving people rejoice when the corrupt are judged and removed from power or the violent are judged and removed from the presence of the community. How much more will we say of the perfect Judge, “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty…for rewarding your servants, … and for destroying the destroyers of the earth” (Revelation 11:17-18).
The wicked do not choose hell. It may be more accurate to say they choose to reject heaven. If we reject God and his supremacy, if we live to deface his glory, then heaven is the last place we would enjoy. But the wicked never choose hell. They go there against their will, “weeping and gnashing [their] teeth” (Matthew 25:30). In all of his judgment, God, boldly and without apology, takes an active role, not a passive one…The wicked do not leap or fall into the lake of fire. They are thrown into it, on purpose, according to the perfect righteousness of God. “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15). Sobering, to be sure. May it also be motivating.
Comments (69) »
1. donsands
August 20, 2006
4:01 PM
Hard subject. I agree that the wicked are thrown into hell. I like the point he made about the airplane full of people.
I know that each and everyone of us deserves to be thrown into hell. And that it’s only His mercy that anyone is not judged and puinished.
2. 4ever4given
August 20, 2006
4:24 PM
The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all � in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy” (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice.—-RC Sproul
3. Francisco
August 20, 2006
4:33 PM
Tim, I agree with your point. I guess we need to make clear to ourselves what we mean when we speak of ‘free-will’. I would be interested to hear what free-willists understand by that. Is it self-determination or is it something else? If by free-will they mean self-determination then I don’t agree with them. As I can’t not self-determining choose heaven on my own, neither can I self-determining choose hell on my own. I understand that when Ensor speaks of the wicked ‘choosing to reject of heaven’ he is not leaving the door open to purgatory beliefs. Therefore we all infer what he is saying, don’t we?
Before finishing, let me share an entry in my journal. This was written way before I came across similar opening statements in my now two favorite books so far “Humilty’ and ‘Living the Cross-centered life’ by CJ Mahaney…
April 23th, 2006.
If there is one place where I deserve to go that place would be hell. If I were told to choose right, I’d choose wrong. After all, where else could a blind man lead another but to the bottomless pit? But thanks be to God who chose me since the foundation of the world, gave me sight to my eyes so that I may believe. And he sealed his decree with blood. The very blood of His Son. O, how wretched and poor and miserable I am. A sinner and a saint. That’s what I am. And God’s grace brought me near Him. O, God, Father in Heaven. Thank you that your wrath was satisfied when Jesus Christ, the One you sent, died on the cross of shame for my sins…O, God, your mercies who can count?
4. Joop
August 20, 2006
4:55 PM
Interesting topic! To people choose hell? As the blog reads: wicked people did not choose hell, they are condemned to be thrown into hell. I agree with that. Did Lucifer chose hell when he rebelled? No. His aim was to be like God. And for that rebellion hell was prepared for him (satan) and his angels (demons). Hell was never meant for people in the first place. However, some people chose to rebel. Like satan did. And for that they will be thrown into hell. Does everybode deserve to be thrown into hell as Donsand stated? I don’t think so, Donsand. What about people who long for rightiousness etc.. (see Matthew 5:1-9). Do they need correction? We all do sometimes. Do they need repentance? We all did / or do. Do they deserve hell. Hell, no, I would say. Not if they long for rightiousness etc.
5. Jerry Morningstar
August 20, 2006
4:57 PM
Wow - makes you think. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who made the suggestion that hell is locked ‘from the inside’ so to speak. i.e. The wicked choose it, put themselves there. I appreciate his writings but I think he gets pretty sloppy with his theology at points. It kind of reminds me of the ‘gospel’ my wife grew up with in the Methodist church before she became a believer. She thought everybody went to heaven unless you told God you didn’t want to go.
6. Ken
August 20, 2006
6:00 PM
I agree that God is the One who chooses to send the wicked to the place of eternal torment and that decision is just and right and the wicked , on the day of judgement will see that it is so and know that they deserve it, although it is true that it will never make them penitent. They will curse God for eternity.
The example used regarding the child abuser is helpful but we also need to remember that sin does not always come in such nice to understand packages. Also on that plane is the Jehovah’s Witness who sincerely believes that hell does not exist and Jesus was created by the Father. He molests nobody and is following the light that he has and God is no less just and righteous in sending him to hell too. And that leads us to think about the age old question of those who have never heard, those who lived their lives as objects of horrific abuse, those who faithfully serve idols and false gods and sincerely believed that their eternity is secure. They do not abuse people. they are good neighbours, etc. And they are on their way to hell. We cannot understand the justice of hell properly because we do not understand the offensiveness of sin. We see sin as open rebellion and conscious disobedience. But it is not always that. But it always deserves the wrath of God. In the end we are left to trusting the Lord to do what is right, because the whole concept of hell and heaven, the sinfulness of sin and the graciousness of mercy are beyond us to come to grips with.
7. Francisco
August 20, 2006
7:03 PM
I might be wrong but I somehow sense this may turn out into a silly talk. So please, keep up the focus of Tim’s question. To the assertion made by Packer that
“The other point of disagreement with Packer was his assumption that the two-fold presentation in scripture of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility sounds to everybody like a contradiction. It didn’t sound like one to Jonathan Edwards after he thought about it long enough and it doesn’t sound like one to me. I think anyone who is going to dogmatically assert that humans can’t understand this “antinomy” must first show that Jonathan Edwards has not understood it…”
In other words, whether you agree with Edwards and Piper or not, at least you get in your mind that there are people who hold not such antinomy between God’s sovereignty and man’s accountability.
[…]
After explaining to us what Edwards understood by moral inability, moral necessity as well as natural inability and natural necessity Piper concludes:
“Therefore moral inability and moral necessity on the one hand and human accountability on the other are not an antinomy. Their unity is not contrary to reason or to the common moral experience of mankind. Therefore, in order to see how God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility perfectly cohere, one need only realize that the way God works in the world is not by imposing natural necessity on men and then holding them accountable for what they can’t do even though they will to do it. But rather God so disposes all things (Eph. 1:11) so that in accordance with moral necessity all men make only those choices ordained by God from all eternity.
One last guideline for thinking about God’s action in view of all this: Always keep in mind that everything God does toward men - his commanding, his calling, his warning, his promising, his weeping over Jerusalem, - everything is his means of creating situations which function as motives to elicit the acts of will which he has ordained to come to pass. In this way He ultimately determines all acts of volition (though not all in the same way) and yet holds man accountable only for those acts which they want most to do.”
read the whole article on context please at…
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/packer.html
8. Francisco
August 20, 2006
7:06 PM
I too hastily posted my comment. I should have said 1. First quote is from John Piper (hope you figured that out) 2. The third paragraph should read
“In other words, whether you agree with Edwards and Piper or not, at least you get in your mind that there are people who hold not such antinomy between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsability.”
hope you don’t mind. Thanks!
9. donsands
August 20, 2006
7:39 PM
joop: “What about people who long for righteousness”
I believe if someone longs after righteousness, this proves the grace of God is upon him.
My point that all deserve hell is that all humans are sinners, and all transgress God’s law. We are all under His wrath. ” … we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.” Eph. 2:3
There was only one human who never transgressed the holy law of God, and that was Christ Jesus. It’s His righteousness we need imputed to us and our sins imputed to Him(2 Cor. 5:21), so that we are made worthy for heaven in Christ. And so that we are no longer under God’s wrath, which in the end leads to eternal seperation from God, which is an eternal place, which the Scriptures call hell.
Nice quote from Sproul 4given.
10. Jerry Morningstar
August 20, 2006
11:32 PM
Francisco - I may be wrong but I don’t think the Ensor passage is really dealing with the whole moral ability/ inability debate. I think he is just saying that God is a righteous God who will send sinners to hell. The average Joe on the street has a problem reconciling the God of love with the God who casts people into hell. Lee Strobel has a chapter in his book, ‘The Case for faith’ - titled ‘How can a loving God send people to hell?’. Personally I felt the chapter was weak but I think the point is that for many - hell is a stumblingblock to the Christian faith. Some try to smooth over the doctrine by acting as though God plays a more limited role in sentencing people to hell.
I thought the Ensor plane load illustration was helpful for this reason; it reminds us that we are not in possession of all the facts like God is. Most people can be shown a logical necessity for hell for people like Hitler or other serial killers, child abductors, etc. Our conscience would cry out that the universe is unjust after all if there were not a hell for such wicked. Why should they merely get to cease to exist at death considering all the evil they have committed against others? That argues that our problem is not with the idea of God sending people to hell - but merely with His standards. I think Ensor is pointing us in the direction that we can trust that God’s judgments are based on a far more comprehensive possession of facts about each individual sinner than you or I have.
Personally I don’t believe in free will as it is often defined but I do believe in free agency. Within God’s sovereign disposal of events - men and woman make moral choices for which they will be held accountable. That’s all that matters in the end.
11. FlockOfSillies
August 21, 2006
12:07 AM
My thoughts ran along the same lines as Ken’s, in reading the passage from Ensor. My dad used to “worry” for years about “the pygmies in Africa” — why is it just for God to send them to hell if they’ve never heard the gospel? It was a long time before I realized he was asking the wrong question. Instead of asking, “Why are some condemned to hell?”, he should have been asking, “Why are any granted mercy?”
12. Joop
August 21, 2006
3:32 AM
To Donsands: Paul wrote in Ef. 2 that we all were under the wrath of God. My question is this: Is it that, because we were under the wrath of God, we all therefore deserve eternel condemnation in hell? If so, can you please support your answer with Scripture.
To FlockofSillies: I believe mercy is granted to everybody who longs after rightiousness (see Mat. 1-10). Also for tribes like the Pygmies who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel. In Revelation is written who will be condemned to hell and why(Rev 20:11-15, and Rev 21:8). Reading Revelation, hell is to me, for the wicked and ‘the proud’ and ‘the obstinate’ etc; for those who would always resist God. The question ‘Why are any granted mercy’ is an invalid question. As if Christ died for ‘some people’ rather than the ‘world’ (see Joh 3:16-18). However, those who love darkness rather than light (see Joh 3:19-20) will eventually go to hell.
13. kletois
August 21, 2006
5:32 AM
Joop, I find your question to Donsands, as it is obvious from scripture that those under wrath will be sent to hell. As for the Pygmies, as they are also under wrath, they will goto hell unless the Holy Spirit opens their heart to the gospel.
14. kletois
August 21, 2006
5:38 AM
The word ‘odd’ went M.I.A between ‘Donsands’ and the comma. lol
15. FlockOfSillies
August 21, 2006
6:37 AM
Joop,
I’ll give you my best 2 a.m. effort…
Scripture is quite clear that unredeemed sinners do not long for righteousness. Romans 3:10-12 says:
“10as it is written, ‘THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.’”
We don’t long for righteousness unless and until God puts His Spirit in us, making us alive when we had been spiritually dead. God calls us, and enables us to respond to His call for repentance. We are completely incapable of doing it on our own (Rom. 8:5-9).
Romans 5:6-10 says: 6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
From what are believers saved? From God’s wrath and eternal punishment.
My question, “Why are any shown mercy?” is not invalid at all. Yes, it’s true that God provided the world with the way of salvation through His Son, but the passage you quoted in John 3 clearly states that only those who believe will have eternal life. Christ died “for the world”, but not everyone will be saved. In that sense, Christ died only for believers. What is invalid is the notion that we somehow deserve favor from God. (Rom. 9:15-18, 22-24; Titus 3:3-5)
Especially look at Titus 3:5 — “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit…”
It’s also clear who will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-11): “9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified…”
You asked donsands to support his position with Scripture. In addition to the passages I’ve already listed, look up Eph. 5:5-6, and Col. 3:5-7. I could go on and on, but why don’t you provide us with scriptural evidence that we are not all under God’s wrath and deserving of His eternal punishment?
16. Connie
August 21, 2006
9:28 AM
What a timely topic, as I was just involved in a similar conversation with some fellow home school moms—all from various church tradition and practice.
I was fairly certain that I was the only one in the group who holds to reformed theology and found myself unwilling to voice the Biblical view on the topic—though I’ve known it and held to it for many years now! Sadly, at the time my fear of man was stronger than my love of God’s truth—I have since confessed that to the Lord and to one of the other moms in the conversation—and I’ve wrestled with that matter for the past week.
I believe that the foundational problem with understanding and embracing the biblical position on this topic is the basic misunderstanding of man’s TRUE condition apart from God’s grace.
Through Adam (Rom.5:12) we are all rightly bound for hell—we indeed deserve it. And, because our wicked/sinful nature does NOT seek God (Rom. 3:1-18), God in His infinite mercy provided the only way to be reconciled to Him (John 6:65). It was God’s desire to show His mercy and glory, and He always accomplishes what He desires/wills. What’s more, He always initiates it (Eph. 2:4-5)!!!!
“Flockofsillies” has very appropriately reminded us of the real question, “Why are any granted mercy?” As we ponder that question, it should bring us to our knees at the foot of the cross and remind us that we had NOTHING to do with our salvation—it was ALL of God, for His glory, and His alone. The only thing different between a believer and his unbelieveing neighbor is the fact that GOD chose to show mercy to one and ransom him from hell! Truly by His Grace Alone, Connie
17. Joop
August 21, 2006
12:28 PM
To Donsands, FlockOfSillies, Kletois and Connie,
thank you for your comments and remarks etc.
As for the ‘wrath of God’: I don’t deny the wrath of God was upon us, and is upon all the unsaved. As a consequence of that fact, it seems to me that you think or believe that everybody who never heard the Gospel, will go to hell. I haven’t seen a clear scriptural support for that. So what about those pagans who DID live according to the law that was within them. What about the old testament heroes of faith, mentioned in Hebrews. And what about the midwives (Sifra and Pua) who rescued Moses and took care of him? What about the good Samaritan? Etc etc. And what exacty is ‘the wrath of God?’. When Jesus saw these children, He was pleased to invite them to come to Him. Was the ‘wrath of God’ already upon these children? So, would these children go to hell if they should die at young age? Just because ‘the wrath of God’ was upon them? Please note: to get saved ALL people will eventually accept Jesus as Savior, for Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. At least we can agree on that… I hope to challenge you with my questions and I expect some solid answers : ) God Bless, Joop
18. donsands
August 21, 2006
2:05 PM
joop,
First off, I look at salvation not so much in someone accepting Christ, but God the Father accepting the sinner.
How does God accept a sinner into His presence? He doesn’t.
Who deserves to go to heaven after they die, if all mankind are sinners?
There is One human who never sinned.
Jesus Christ is the only human who ever lived that deserved to go into the presence of God the Father.
So where do humans end up when they die if they can not go into the presence of God?
Those whom God the Father has accepted in His Son’s death and ressurection, can enter into the presence of God, but only by His mercy and grace never deserving, but only deserving, because Christ is deserving.
All whom the Father has not accepted in the Son, will be judged. Only those written in the Lamb’s book of life will not go to perdition.
19. moosecat
August 21, 2006
2:42 PM
Don sands says: “All whom the Father has not accepted in the Son, will be judged. Only those written in the Lamb’s book of life will not go to perdition.” but how is one chosen to have their name written in the book of life? some think we make that final decision, to accept or to reject the offer of Christ, but in all other things God is sovereign. some think that God does the choosing with no input from us in the process, as He is sovereign in ALL things does this matter (what we believe is the first step of salvation)? and if so, why?? if we accept or reject the offer, how does that make God any less sovereign? I always struggle with this point. I do believe that God is totally and completely in charge of everything, but if He gives us this choice, how would that make Him not sovereign? Sorry if this takes this off the mark, if so, many apologies and I promise not to drag this point out.
20. moosiecat
August 21, 2006
2:44 PM
sorry, that should be “moosiecat”
21. Phia
August 21, 2006
4:25 PM
I pick hell. Or rather, I refuse heaven. I do not ask to be rewarded for good behavior and I will not worship any god cruel enough to allow a place purely for torment to exist or one who would condemn his children for human failings he gave them in the first place.
Let me be damned and perhaps, if there is a hell, after a few centuries of torment I’ll be numb enough to help comfort the other lost souls. I say with firm conviction, as an athiest, if I am wrong I will gladly take an ethernity of fire.
22. FlockOfSillies
August 21, 2006
4:28 PM
Moosiecat, the apostle Paul addresses your very question in Romans 3.
Joop, I don’t have time for another extended treatment of the subject, but Romans 1:18-32 would be a good place for you to start. If you want to discuss the faith of OT saints, check Hebrews 11. Those who trusted Yahweh and obeyed Him with the revelation He had given them are those who belonged to Him.
BTW, the Good Samaritan wasn’t a real guy. He was a character in a parable.
And I reaaaally don’t want to get into the “age of accountability” debate on this thread. Tim had a good series of posts on that not too long ago, so you’d be better served to read that thread if you haven’t done so already.
The “wrath of God”, for one thing, includes eternal punishment and separation from His presence at the Day of Judgment. For all the other permutations of how He administers His wrath, I’ll have to let someone else respond, since my computer time is up.
So, are you trying to say that pagans who worship many gods will somehow be saved from hell after they die?
23. FlockOfSillies
August 21, 2006
4:30 PM
Moosiecat, that was supposed to say Romans 9. Sorry.
24. moosiecat
August 21, 2006
4:31 PM
To Phia: I think you just proved the point to me - there are lost souls out there who would refuse the glorious gift of eternity with God, even when they know the alternative would be everlasting hell. You may not want me to Phia, but I will be praying for you. “you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” - these are the words of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I pray they may one day have the sweet sound of salvation to you as they do for me. sincerely, moosiecat
25. donsands
August 21, 2006
4:34 PM
moosiecat,
This subject is one that is always hot, and yet needed. I believe man is so spiritually dead that he would never choose the free gift of God’s love. He would never repent, not come into the marvelous light, because his deeds are evil. God’s grace quickens are deadness in sin. He makes us alive to His truth. He gives us mercy, even when we don’t want it. And it’s this mercy, that makes us fall upon our knees and give thanks to such an awesome and gracious Lord.
That’s a very brief answer. You’re correct this could drag on for another 2,000 years, that’s for sure. I appreciate your thoughts.
26. 4ever4given
August 21, 2006
4:35 PM
Yes Donsands… This makes me think of several verses actually that are from our Sunday evening teaching. My pastor and the teaching men of our church are going through the ordo salutis (order of salvation) on Sunday evenings. It has been so edifying. Our pastor ended this series with “Glorfication.” (Eph 2:8) We have been saved in the past from the penalty of sin; saved in the present from the power of sin; saved in the future from the presence of sin. (John 5:28-29; Dan 12:2; Matt 25:46; Acts 24:15) As believers are prepared for glorification, that once for all the saints, simultaneous, twinkling of an eye, final step when Christ returns, when the body is perfectly prepared for resurrection along with the Spirit and completely set free from the effects of the Fall (I Cor 15:35-38)… so also unbelievers bodies will be raised and transformed for eternal, righteous judgement , called the second death (Rev 2:11) “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:43-48) (See also, Rev 20:11-15)
27. moosiecat
August 21, 2006
4:35 PM
thank you Flockofsillies - I will prayerfully check out Romans 9!
28. moosiecat
August 21, 2006
4:43 PM
thanks to all for your thoughtful responses - you have given me a lot of things to look into. I have a request - please pray for me in going to a church in my new area (well, I have been here for 2 years). I just can’t seem to make my mind up on where to go - I know that it is NOT God’s will for me to not be going to church. thanks!
29. donsands
August 21, 2006
7:23 PM
4given,
That’s a wonderful local church you attend. I am praying my church would have teachings like yours. John 5: 28-29 nails it down well. Thanks for sharing.
moosiecat,
I’ll pray for you. I did have a quick thought. Sometimes it may be the Lord’s will for one of saints to leave a church. I’m not suggesting you do that at all, but I truly believe if a church is teaching and preaching bad doctrine, then it may be wise to leave. Just a thought.
30. Carrie
August 22, 2006
7:21 AM
This subject is one that is always hot, and yet needed.
No pun intended?
31. donsands
August 22, 2006
9:16 AM
carrie,
Thanks for asking that. I was a little uptight this morning and my heart loosened up a bit when I read that. No there was no pun intended. God bless.
32. GWilly
August 22, 2006
12:00 PM
Phia, you really don’t know what for what you are asking. I pray you don’t get it. If the Bible is correct, and most of us here believe it is, then no, it’s not ever going to get any better for you, and you wouldn’t be able to comfort anyone else even if it did. But it’s interesting that you would have pity on others who will be there suffering with you. Where does pity come from if there is no ultimate source of good? Is pity an emotion that has evolved out of survival of the fittest. I think survival of the fittest would dictate every person for himself or herself. What do you think?
33. Joop
August 22, 2006
12:51 PM
To Donsands
‘How does God accept a sinner into His presence? He doesn’t.’
I find ‘accept’ somehow invalid here. God surely doesn’t accept or tolerate any sin. However, Scripture clearly states God loves sinners. Read the whole Gospel and check out for yourself! You’re right we don’t deserve heaven or our salvation. Therefore grace has been offered. I find your ‘theology’ void of Gods love and compassion. Sure, God is also a HOLY God, but then look at Jesus, how merciful en and compassionate He was (and still is!) So, Donsands, who will be in the book of life? Do you believe all people born before Christ will go to hell (except some OT heroes of faith). Do you believe everybode who hasn’t heard of the Gospel will go to hell? I haven’t seen a clear answer yet.
To FlockOfSillies. Somehow I feel you are avoiding my questions, however I maybe should accept your excuse you’re running out of (computer)time. Fair enough! : )
My question was: will everybody who has ‘the wrath of God upon them’ will go to hell after they die without ever having heard of the Gospel. You may well forget ‘the age of accountability’. I know that discussion, I took part in that.
You asked: ‘So, are you trying to say that pagans who worship many gods will somehow be saved from hell after they die?’
My answer: I believe some of those pagans will be saved, will be given the opportunity to accept Christ (see Matthew 25:31-46).
My question, which hasn’t been answered yet: Are you trying to say that all pagans (whether or not worshipping many gods) will go to hell after they die?
Then you made this remark: ‘BTW, the Good Samaritan wasn’t a real guy. He was a character in a parable’
which is actually a good remark. But consider this: would Jesus use this character of the Good Samaritan if there weren’t any ‘good Samaritans’ out there?
Last, but not least, to Phia.
Phia, have you ever read the Gospel? Have you ever read about Jesus? If you have, do you find Him cruel? He died for you as well, you know! Though I cannot agree with you, I appreciate your honesty. I pray also that God may open your heart. Come to Him, and He will come to you!
God bless you all, Joop
34. donsands
August 22, 2006
1:38 PM
joop,
I’m sorry that you think my theology is void of God’s love and compassion. Personally I can surely be less than compassionate, and sometimes I may come across that way. However, I can assure you that the love of God in Christ Jesus is something I try to share with all my heart. God’s glory is most important to me. His being honored is paramount, not me, or anyone for that matter. I desire to bring honor not shame to Christ. How does God glorify His Holy name? He does so in His mercy for sure. This is His greatest way to show His glory, I think. That He sent His only Son to die for sinners, of whom I feel I’m the chief. But God will also be glorified in His judgement of the wicked. Very hard to receive this, but it is the gospel truth. As you said God is holy, and He will judge sinners.
I love the Lord because He first loved me, and ransomed and redeemed me for Himself.
Why did He love me? I’ll never know the answer to that. I believe even when I reach glory and see the Lord face to face, His amazing love will still be a mystery.
The discussion was that God owes no one salvation, and that we all deserve hell. God would be perfectly just to condemn all humans. I think you agree with this.
NOW, the amazing thing is that He decided to be merciful to people who hate Him, and are unthankful blasphemers. And this mercy was to give His Son, whom the Father loved and cherished, and in whom He was well pleased. Why would He do this? As I said, I’ll never understand why, but I know it’s true.
Who will be in the book of life? All who the Lord Jesus has died for, and has sought and saved. All the OT saints, as well as all the NT saints, which includes all who come to trust in His death and ressurection, and turn to God from their sins.
The Good Shepherd will seek and save each and everyone of His precious ones.
One more point to make. I believe God does the accepting. Eph. 1:4-6
“According as he has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us ACCEPTED in the Beloved.”
Thanks for sharing your heart. It’s not so easy on a blog, as it would be in person methinks. God bless you and your family.
35. Dallas Pymm
August 22, 2006
2:08 PM
Looks like Joop became Calvinist at the end of his email. “I pray also that God may open your heart.”
Romans 1:18-23 will answer your question Joop.
“18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.”
Looks like their guilty knowledge of God and their suppression of the truth and exchanging the glory of God for foolish images condemns them. I do not see how Matthew 25:31-46 would save any of them.
36. Joop
August 22, 2006
3:22 PM
To Downsands,
thanks for sharing your thougts which I appreciate very much. I know you love the Lord and He loves you. I agree in many (important) issues with you. Still find other issues to disagree with. To discuss disagreement, thats where blogs are for, right?
You said: ‘God would be perfectly just to condemn all humans. I think you agree with this.’
Let me say here: I don’t disagree here. But now, look at Jesus and the adulteres women. The mob had, according to the law, the right to stone her (and him!, where was he?). Judgement, OK! But what did Jesus do? You know! You see what I mean by saying your ‘theology’ lacks something?
You also said: ‘But God will also be glorified in His judgement of the wicked. Very hard to receive this, but it is the gospel truth.’
Will God be gloryfied by sending people to hell? If they are really wicked, perhaps. I don’t remember any scriptural support for that. Maybe you can show me some. A question: Is every pagan wicked? I don’t think so, see Rom 2:14-16, that’s why I believe not every pagan will ultimately end up in hell.
One final remark I disagree with you completely: you said:
‘That He sent His only Son to die for sinners, of whom I feel I’m the chief.’
No, no, no. for I feel I’m the chief : ( [of the sinners]. : )
God Bless Joop
37. Joop
August 22, 2006
3:39 PM
To Dallas Pymm
You said: ‘Romans 1:18-23 will answer your question Joop’
Romans 1:18-23 is about the ungodliness and unrighteousness people. I agree that these people mentioned here may well end up in hell.
But what about Romans 2:14-16: 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thougths the mean while accusing one another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
So my question, not answered by anybody, still holds: Do ALL gentiles, never ever heard the gospel, end up in hell?
P.S. Sometimes it may be wise to be a Jew with the Jews, a Greek with the Greek, a fool with the fools, and a Calvinist with the Calvinists. : ) God Bless, Joop
38. Joop
August 22, 2006
3:51 PM
To Dallas Pymm I apologize for some missing words in my quote of Romans 2:14-16.
Try again: 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thougths the mean while accusing one another or else excusing one another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Indeed, I should not substract some words…
39. donsands
August 22, 2006
5:13 PM
joop,
I suppose like Paul, we are all chief of sinners. I feel like this at times, and at other times it may be false humility.
Let’s see if I can nail down my theology for you.
I believe the Holy Lord could if He desired to, condemn all of humanity. And this would be perfectly just and right to do. You said you agree. Good. BUT, God with His great mercy and love, did not condemn, but showed mercy and grace to a world that doesn’t want His mercy and grace.
joop, you have to take this WHOLE statement together, and then you have my theology.
God also will judge the wicked, those whom do not receive His mercy and grace. And He will be glorified in His righteous judgement.
“The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.” Prov. 16:4
“For the Scripture says to Paraoh, ‘For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.’ Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” Rom. 9:17-18
“We give You thanks, O LORD God Almighty, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, … And should destroy those who destroy the earth.” Rev. 11:18
“How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out! For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.” Rom. 11:33,36
God will be glorified in all He does, for everything He does is perfect.
It’s been good discussing these deeps things of the truth with you. Have a blessed evening.
40. Caleb
August 22, 2006
6:49 PM
Joop, First of all I want to say that based on what I have seen you write I can say that I feel that we are brothers and I rejoice in that fact. I praise God that you are seeking the truth, and that you seem to be humble in doing so…I hope that we all can continue to be kind in talking to each other.
I want to start by saying that I don’t understand how you are trying to make a distinction between ‘evil’ pagans and pagans who, to use your words: “those pagans who DID live according to the law that was within them.” This difference is not a biblical difference as far as I can tell. Sin, being an offense against Yaweh, is evil and it is something that all people participate in (Rom. 3:23). I don’t see how you can even try to say that there are some people who sin, but aren’t evil. About your question regarding pagans who DID live according to the law that was within them, lets see what Scripture says:
“12For ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW will also perish without the law, and ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” ESV
Now my question to you Joop is this: Who is it that has not sinned? Verse 12 says that all who sin without the law PERISH, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law…keeping in mind Romans 3:23 which says, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” we see who it is that will perish (those who don’t have the law) and who will be judged under the law (those who have the law).
If I am not mistaken, this seems to include everyone. Based on this understanding of sin we must answer your question below that yes, all gentiles who have never heard the gospel end up in hell.
here is your (Joop’s) question: “Do ALL gentiles, never ever heard the gospel, end up in hell?”
Here is another thought to consider, Joop. Based on the logic in Paul’s argument in the following passage I think we are forced to this conclusion that everyone who has never heard the gospel will be eternally separated from the pressence of God to bless.
Romans 10:13-17: 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
your brother in Christ, Caleb
41. Nan
August 23, 2006
1:43 AM
Joop, I have to ask you, what does “truly wicked” mean to you? You have classified a certain degree of sin to be deserving of hell and all other degrees to not be quite as deserving of God’s wrath (aka. His holy anger… you recognize it at your core because ocassionally you experience righteous indignation).
Let’s think back to the Garden of Eden can we? What is it that Adam and Eve were told not to do? Were they given a laundry list of rules and laws to live by? Were they told not to fornicate? Were they discouraged from lying? Were they expected to know the 10 Commandments prior to Mt. Sinai? Nope. They were given just one rule. “Do not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.” Very simple. Very clear and if you ask me… it’s a bite of fruit, how evil could it be? Do you think in eating the fruit Adam and Eve were entertaining murderous thoughts or adulterous ones? Not really. They saw that the fruit was pleasing and according to the serpent (who obvioiusly sounded like a creature who knew what he was talking about), “good for attaining knowledge”. They felt “out of the know.” They merely, almost out of curiosity, decided to disobey that one seemingly small rule that God had placed over them. And in that one act they chose for themselves (and for us according to the scripture) condemnation.
God actually condemned them to death because of eating of the measly fruit! Was the fruit poisonous? No. They went on to live exceedingly long and productive lives, but they did so outside of the glorious paradise that was the Garden of Eden. Had the first sin recorded in the Bible only been as dastardly as the second sin (When Cain killed Abel) then perhaps we could all think that “truly wicked” and “deserving of wrath” was a term reserved only for the especially “bad.” But the fall of mankind rested in the hands of a man who simply ate a bite of fruit. Way back then at the very beginning God already had a plan in place for the Savior. The Savior wasn’t “plan b” because Adam and Eve bunged everything up. God already had a plan back then for the ultimate destruction of Satan. His doom was sure before the creation of the world as was our salvation. I know that you’ve been given all the scriptures you need to come to a point of submission to the absolute sovereignty of God over salvation and lo even damnation. If you have read them and yet reject them, that is your choice and I’m sure that you will one day understand the truth. But you cannot honestly suggest that people have not clearly given you evidence of God’s sovereignty and holiness and self-glorification in salvation and damnation. He doesn’t just say, “okay your sin is not so bad because you chose me and that makes up for all the crap that you’ve done.” He does love sinners. He loves sinners and covers them in righteousness so that they are given the righteous record of Christ. It’s not that we are automatically sinners no more once we are saved, we are ever being sanctified until the day we are glorified. But from the moment of regeneration we are granted salvation not on the grounds of our longing for righteousness but on the grounds that we are declared righteousness by grace alone, in Christ alone and through faith alone. He turned his back on his son. He forsook Him whom He had been in perfect unity with from all eternity. He poured out His wrath upon Him. He could not look upon Jesus on the cross because He was bearing the weight of all of our sin (the sin of those in the OT who looked to the coming of the messiah as the permanent and perfect sacrafice, and those that came during and after the time of Christ who looked to Him in faith). Those that value their sin, ANY of it… not just the big ones like murder, pride and hate… “little ones” like selfish ambition, greed, lust, gossip, the list obviously goes on and on… those that cling to their sin in preference to the cross will bear it into eternity, indeed it will be the only thing they take with them and get to keep forever, and therefore will endure the wrath of God. Those who do not trust in the work of Christ will not be given a post death second chance. And yes, scripture is even clear that those who have not heard the gospel are yet responsible for their own sin. It is also clear (in the same passage) on who deserves hell and it includes things as small as what my two year old does, “disobedient to parents.” The only reason that we can ever be considered righteous is when we are stripped of our sins because Christ paid for them and then are dressed in the garb of His righteousness alone. We only long for righteousness when we are given His spirit, and the Spirit is the gift of God to all who believe. Romans 1 ” 16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,[d] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”[e] God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. “
42. Nan
August 23, 2006
1:48 AM
Oh and as if I didn’t say enough already! LOL! As far as people “choosing hell” or “God sending them.” Well… let’s put it this way. If I send my child to his room to be alone and out of fellowship with the family, he might respond, “Well fine then! I am going to my room! Not because you sent me, but because I want to!!” (note: none of my kids have ever said anything like this… yet! LOL!) Like it or not… they were still sent there. They might assert their autonomy all the way there but once they experience it I’m sure they will assent to having been sentenced there. There but for the grace of God go I. Nan
43. Joop
August 23, 2006
2:36 PM
To Donsands,
Thanks for your reply. You mentioned ‘the wicked’. I don’t agree every gentile / pagan is wicked. Sinners? Yes! Wicked? Not all of them! Wicked people are, to me, people who love darkness rather than light. Not all gentiles love darkness rather than light. We, you Donsands and me, may sin regurlarly. But that doesn’t mean we prefer darkness above light. We feel sorry when we sinned and repent. We all know Hitler was wicked, responsible for killing 6 million jews, and more evil acts. However, some jews were protected by all kinds off people, even non Christians (I suppose). Those jews found hiding places in sinners homes, the ‘Good Samaritans’). You see what I mean? You will have heard of Oscar Schindler. Was he Christian? Not that I know of. At least He cared and saved more than a thousand jews.
You quoted Rom 9:17-18
which raises an interesting theological topic.
I believe Pharao’s heart was hardened BECAUSE he refused to cooperate with JHWH (Ex 3:19), contrary as did the Pharao in Joseph’s days. So, FIRST there was disobedience (Pharao refused te cooparate after Moses demands to let His people go), THEN God ‘hardened his heart’ to show His power to the whole earth. To me, this has NOTHING to do with election or predestination. It’s all a matter of choice. Pharaoh had to choose A, instead he chose B. The consequences are known…
As for Rev 11:18: ‘And should destroy those who destroy the earth’ Those who destroy the earth (out of egoistic motives) are to me the wicked, the adversaries who doesn’t know God (does not WANT do know God) and being disobedient (after having heard the gospel). (Ps 79, 2 Thes 1:8-9)
I stop for now. Thanks for all your replies. We may not agree on all things yet, we certainly can sharp one another! God bless, Joop
44. Joop
August 23, 2006
2:45 PM
To Caleb and Nan,
Thanks for your (long, very long) responses. I choose to answer your questions later, as I’m tired now (the flesh is weak, besides it’s evening here). God bless, Joop
45. donsands
August 23, 2006
5:25 PM
joop,
BTW, is that your real name? I was thinking you probably have a different real name.
Two quick answers.
I believe it is wasn’t for the grace of God, that i could have been as wicked as Hitler. Sothen, it’s God’s grace and mercy that produce goodness in man. There are no good works in mankind that God accepts, only those good works that Christ did are looked on by a perfect Holy Lord, for even the best deeds of man are tainted.
When we by faith obey God, He counts this as righteous.
Second. God hardens whom he wants. He’s the Potter. He takes the lump of clay and makes a vase, or an ashtray. As far as Pharoah goes: “The LORD said to Moses, ‘When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all these wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. BUT, I will harden his heart, SO THAT he will not let My people go.” Ex. 4:21
And earlier in this same chapter: “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?” ver. 11
Thanks for the thoughts. I understand where you’re coming from. The imperative charge for us all is to come under the authority of the Holy Writ. And if we do this we have a good chance of coming to understand the deep truths of our Lord.
46. moosiecat
August 23, 2006
7:21 PM
Good evening everyone! I want to thank all for the tone of this discourse. Both sides(not sure if that’s the correct way to say that) have been very respectful to each other. It is a blessing to read the responses. All seem to be truly trying to get to the truth - not “one up” the other person. You have all given many scriptures to read and pray about. Blessings, moosiecat
47. Todd
August 23, 2006
8:59 PM
Joop,
Food for thought:
There are no innocent people. We all fell(sinned) in Adam. Being his posterity(descendants)we inherit a fallen nature inclined toward sin. Individual acts of sin are inevitable. Not hearing the Gospel is not the problem, rebelling against our Creator is, and this we all do willingly.
Hell was never intended for man?… Did God not forsee(ordain) the fall,and is hell a contingency plan for fallen man? Did God not create Lucifer and allow(ordain) his fall? Did God not allow(ordain) the fall of man?Could the omniscient, immutable,omnipotant sovereign of the universe not sustain both in their original states? Was Christ’s substitutionary atonement not foreordained(decreed) before the foundation of the world? Does God’s attribute of perfection not contradict hell never being intended for man?
Does God’s word not say He hardened Pharaoh’s heart? Does it not also say He will send them strong delusion that they will believe a lie ? Were the parables not designed to conceal truth from those outside the Kingdom?
Does God’s word not divide man into two catagories: good or evil, sinners or saints, righteous or wicked?
Sola scriptura.
48. FlockOfSillies
August 24, 2006
4:55 AM
Joop,
It seems to me that you’re trying to create a third category of person that doesn’t exist in Scripture.
I understand your concern for the lost and your hope for those who are living the most moral lives they know how, without following Christ. I’m surrounded by “moral” people in my family and circle of friends, who do not know Christ.
These people think they can earn their way into heaven by “being a good person” and living a good life. They think God will weigh their actions on Judgment Day, and that their good actions will outweigh the bad. They are pinning all their hopes on their own merit, and God’s leniency. It is nothing more than PRIDE. It doesn’t matter whether they’ve heard the gospel or not. The thinking is the same.
Here’s the truth about what these people face, from the lips of our Savior (in Matthew 7):
13”Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
21”Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22”Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23”And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’”
And one more thing about salvation “after death”:
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. — Hebrews 9:27-28
So after we die comes judgment, not a second chance to repent. And when Christ returns, it will be salvation for those who are His own, who eagerly await Him. The “good” people you’re talking about are not eagerly awaiting Christ’s return. You see them as good, but God sees them as wicked, and although He loves them, His holiness will not permit Him to overlook their unrepented sin.
And in John 10:26-28 Jesus says:
26”But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
Did you catch that? Jesus didn’t say, “You’re not of My sheep because you don’t choose to believe.” He said the REVERSE. He said that the Jewish leaders weren’t His, therefore they didn’t believe. You’ll also notice that Jesus doesn’t give a third category of spiritual status. There’s sheep, and there’s goats. There’s no in-between, no “good goats” and “wicked goats.”
One more thing, about Romans 2: The apostle Paul is using the Gentiles as a comparison against the Jews he’s addressing, who are trusting in their status as sons of Abraham for salvation. He doesn’t say that pagans are saved. On the contrary…
Two verses before the passage you quoted (v. 14-16), is this: 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;”
The Gentiles who are “a law unto themselves” will have their consciences bearing witness AGAINST THEM on Judgment Day. They will know that they didn’t live up to their own standards perfectly, much less God’s. Their limited knowledge of God’s moral law, which He has implanted in the heart of every man, has been suppressed and corrupted (see Rom. 1).
Furthermore, the Law of Moses was given to show God’s standard. Paul goes to great lengths in the early chapters of the book of Romans to show that the Law could not save anyone. Don’t miss the point of the passage and Paul’s overall argument.
Romans 8:2-4 says: 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Joop, just by reading your comments, I can understand how badly you want to see nice people go to heaven. I want that too. But we can’t make Scripture say what we want it to say. We have to leave our personal spiritual baggage behind, and let Scripture speak for itself.
49. Joop
August 24, 2006
5:14 AM
To Caleb:
Thanks for your answer & comments. Scripture clearly says: we all have sinned. As a result we all were / are (spiritually) dead, or lost. So we all were lost. As we both agree. In my opinion Rom 2:12 doesn’t say ‘lost forever’ or ‘eternal condemnation.:
Romans 2:12 12For ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW will also perish without the law, and ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW will be judged by the law
Please compare Mat 12:31a: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men.
And Rev. 20:13:And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [=hades, not the lake of fire] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And 1 Tim 2:4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I’m not saying everybody will be saved, but it’s God’s will everybody will be saved, rather than predestine (even before the fall) some people to eternal life, and others to eternal condemnation.
Romans 10:13-17 is about bringing the Good News. Moreover, verse 16 says: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. Like the jews (Acts 13:46), so they might be in big trouble!
God bless, your brother in Christ, Joop
50. Joop
August 24, 2006
5:54 AM
To FlockOfSillies
When ‘morally good people’ hear the TRUE GOSPEL and see its fruits they should obey the gospel. It might well be PRIDE to resist the gospel. I agree with you here. (see my post to Caleb, the last part). I’m talking about people who never ever heard the (true) gospel (the ‘gospel’, brought to Latin America by the Spanish Conquestadors wasn’t a gospel at all!)
You talk about people never being given a SECOND chance to repent. I agree with you, brother! But, again, I’m talking about people, never ever heard the true gospel, and consequentely were not able to get a FIRST chance to repent!
When Jesus came, preaching the gospel, He was blaming the people who did not accept Him. See Matt. 11:20-24 as for one example. Why was Jesus blaming those cities here? Why they refused to believe in Him.
If some people were predestined to believe - as I understand from your comment - and others weren’t, then why would Jesus blame those who rejected Him?
You people give me a lot of headackes! - just kidding : ) -
Thanks again for your thoughts, I sorry I don’t respond all of it.
God bless, Joop
51. Joop
August 24, 2006
6:31 AM
To Nan,
you wrote a very, very long response. So hereby you receive a short reply! : )
‘Truly wicked’ -I should have said just ‘wicked’, are to me those who love darkness rather than light. To me, the gentiles mentioned in Acts 13:48 were not wicked although still sinners.
Do you consider your two-year old child wicked for being disobedient?
You’re right when you say that God doesn’t accept any sin (‘small’ and ‘big’ ones)
Should your young child die (God forbid!) you believe he/she will end up in hell?
You also stated: Those who do not trust in de work of Christ will not be given a post death chance. See my comments to FlockOfSillies in post 50.
God bless, Joop
52. Joop
August 24, 2006
6:35 AM
To Nan,
Sorry for misquoting you; you stated:
Those who do not trust in the work of Christ will not be given a post death SECOND chance
53. Joop
August 24, 2006
8:19 AM
To Todd (post 47),
To whom was hell prepared: Matth. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
God created heaven (& angels) and earth (& men). He did this with reason. He knew, because He created free will, problems could / would arise. Therefore He planned beforehand a Sacrifice.
Consider these verses: (food for thoughts)
Ecc: 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, IT SHALL BE FOR EVER: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, than men should fear before him.
Ps 15:4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned, but he honoureth them that fear the Lord. HE THAT SWEARETH TO HIS OWN HURT, and changeth not.
Ps 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
When God ‘hardened the hearts’ (of Pharaoh, or Israel), there was first disobedience and the result was:God hardened his heart. Not vice versa: there was not first ‘hardening of the heart’ and as a result disobedience. See Israel: God sent his Son to Israel, and because (most of) the jews rejected Him ‘blindness in part is happened to Israel’
God bless, Joop
54. Dallas Pymm
August 24, 2006
1:25 PM
Hey Joop. You seem to be very sincere in wanting to know the truth about the things of God, as well as everyone else here in this debate/discussion. This is very encouraging. I say this because one statement you made in this last post is a common misperception about God.
“God created heaven (& angels) and earth (& men). He did this with reason. He knew, because He created free will, problems could / would arise. Therefore He planned beforehand a Sacrifice.”
The problem with this line of thinking is that it, regardless of who believes it, robs God of his being all knowing and never changing. This implies that God creates the world and everything in it, and then uses the ability to look into the future to plan out certain events. This does two things. 1, it means God is not all knowing. If he has to look into the future to make plans for certain events it implies he has to learn something to act. God, who is all knowing, knows all not because he learns what is going to take place, He knows all because he decrees all things. 2, it implies that God can change. If you learn something, you are not the same person that you once were. Your new found knowledge changes your perception, and your future actions. These two beliefs that God is not all knowing, and that God can change of course is blasphemy.
I can say with full confidence that you do not believe these things, but if you take this line of thinking to it’s ultimate end it will lead to these conclusions.
One further thing to think about is that anyone who does not have faith can do nothing but sin. We certainly can not please God without faith Hebrews 11:6, and anything that does not proceed from faith is sin Romans 14:23. Interesting thing about Romans 14 is it conveys that any action a Christian that does not come from faith is sin. So how can someone with out faith do anything but sin? Even the seemingly moral actions an unbeliever does is sinful because it is not done to the glory of God. It is done for the glory of man, and is idolatry.
Just something to think about.
55. Joop
August 24, 2006
2:00 PM
To Dallas Pymm
God never changes. I believe that wholeheartly. I don’t understand what you mean here by quoting me.
“God created heaven (& angels) and earth (& men). He did this with reason. He knew, because He created free will, problems could / would arise. Therefore He planned beforehand a Sacrifice.”
From that quote I can’t conclude God could change. If I used some wrong idoms, I apologize for that. Anyway, to support your (and my!) view about God, see my post 53 (to TODD).
You’re right when we come to God we should have faith that He exists anyway. Should I doubt God and rather trust on man, that would result in sin. Yes, I agree. Likewise, if I send my wife to go shopping and I won’t trust her coming back that would be sin. However, in our good relationship, I trust her completely.
God bless, Joop
56. Dallas Pymm
August 24, 2006
3:36 PM
Sorry Joop. I assumed you meant that God looked through time and saw that sin would occur so He planned for Christ to be a savior. This seems to be a rather common belief on what foreknowledge is, even though it is unbiblical. Please accept my apology.
As for the other part of the post, it seemed you agreed that all one can do who does not have faith (in Christ) is sin. If not, again I am sorry. If this is true, then no one is moral, and all deserves hell. Ya see what I am gettin at? I do not think remote tribes will have an excuse to why they did not believe. I see no where in scripture where they are given a chance after death to accept Christ. I am not sure how important an issue this is, maybe it is huge, maybe not. I just don’t want to read into something that I don’t see, you know?
On the subject at hand, I think people do choose hell. They just have no idea what they are choosing by rejecting God. They are blind to God’s grace and actively choose to disobey and as a result of this they go to hell. I have never really dedicated any amount of time on it. I am just joyful that God opened my eyes and heart to him or I would still be in darkness.
2 Corinthians 4:1-6 “1Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
57. FlockOfSillies
August 24, 2006
4:31 PM
Joop, you wrote:
If some people were predestined to believe - as I understand from your comment - and others weren’t, then why would Jesus blame those who rejected Him?
He holds them responsible for their sin. Those cities that rejected Him would be punished MORE severely because of the witness they were given — they had The Truth, walking through the cities and performing miracles, and they still rejected Him. They will be punished more than someone who has never heard the gospel even once. But people who haven’t heard the gospel aren’t given a free pass if they lived what YOU think is a good life.
We’re starting to go in circles here, so I’ll have to bow out after this post. Please, prayerfully read Romans again, especially chapter 9, with an open heart toward the truths that are found there.
It’s crystal clear that God chose beforehand — some for mercy, others for wrath. He still holds those people who reject Him responsible for their sin, even though they could not be saved apart from His choice. It seems like a contradiction, but our minds are just too puny to comprehend it. It’s not a contradiction with God. He has His purpose in mind, and everything He does (and everyone He chooses) is for His own glory.
Romans 9:10-23 — 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
58. Todd
August 25, 2006
12:19 AM
Joop,
Youre absolutely right about Matt.25:41. Word for word thats what it says.Lets also consider the other verses where the Lord teaches about hell. Many other descriptions of hell are given such as ,Matt.13:42(furnace of fire),Matt.18:34(the torturers),Matt:25:12(seperation from God),Matt.8:12&22:13(outer darkness),Mark 3:29(eternal condemnation),Mark 9:43(fire that is not quenched),and many more. All these verses, although using different discriptions, are referring to the same place;hell. Now instead of singling out one verse from the rest of scripture perhaps we should take the whole counsel of Gods word. Many different decsriptions of hell are given in scripture, 2 Peter 2:17 is another example describing hell. In which it reads ” These(false teachers)are wells without water,clouds carried away by a tempest,for whom(false teachers;people)is reserved the blackness and darkness forever(hell).Here is a verse that indicates hell was intended for men. Knowing that scripture never contradicts itself we must agree that both these verses are true and they do not oppose each other.This is why we must always consider the whole counsel of Gods word. Remember the rules for interpreting scripture:historically,gramatically,and contextually.
Reading the account of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart in Exodus. Ex. 4:21(I will harden Pharaoh’s heart),Ex.7:3(I will harden Pharoah’s heart)Ex.8:15(Pharoah hardened his heart).The account from scripture is that God hardened Pharoah’s heart for his own purpose. The Lord tells Moses He will harden his heart before Pharoah was ever commanded to let the people go.(see Rom.9:16-23 also Is.10:5-15)(Prov.16:9&23,21:1)
Concerning free will: Scripture teaches the sovereignty of God, the responsibility of man, and the free agecy of man, but not free will.(Gen.1:1-Rev.22:20;the whole counsel). Only two people had free will(Adam and Eve). They were created perfect in the image of God. In their original state they were no more inclined toward sin as they were toward good.After the fall they died spiritually and and their will became bound to their sinful nature. Mans will is not free but bound to his sinful nature.God gave us free moral agency(the ability to make decisions,whether good or bad)but not free will. Futhermore scripture doesnt teach that we hold our own destiny in our hands.You may single out a few verses to try and prove differently but scripture as a whole teaches the absolute sovereignty of God.Did you choose your name,or the day you were born,the color of your eyes,your parents,the continent where you entered the world,the day you will die?How foolish of us to be so presumptious.God governs the universe and our lives according to His purpose,according to His decree,in which he determined everything that would ever be or happen.
Q. What are the decrees of God? A. The decrees of God are his eternal purpose,according to the counsel of His will,whereby, for His own glory, He hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass.
Not that the Westminister chatechism holds the same authority as scripture,but is good doctrine derived wholly from scripture.
Keep searching the scriptures my friend,for there is no greater treasure given to man.
Todd
59. Mark Tubbs
August 25, 2006
1:22 AM
Amen, Todd. That is a rare, elegant, gracious reply, grounded fully in the Scriptures, which as Christ said, cannot be broken.
60. Joop
August 25, 2006
1:54 PM
To FlockOfSillies (and whoever who likes to read this)
Your whole theological system is ONE BIG CONTRADICTION. With all due respect. If God predestined some people to eternal glory and others to eternal condemnation, then why was the Lord Jesus Christ so angry with those cities Chorazin and Betsaida (Matth. 11:20-24).
Question 1: Were those people from Chorazin and Betsaid predestined to eternal condamnation? You would say: Yes! Question 2: Were those people able to choose for Jesus? Even when He was in those cities, showing signs and miracles? You would say: No! Because man does not have free will! Question 3: So why was Jesus so angry with them? They were already condemned throught predestination AND they were NOT ABLE TO CHOOSE, LACKING FREE WILL!!! So who is to blame here??? JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF? He, the Son of God, didn’t HE not open their heart so they might believe, or, GOD THE FATHER, who made it impossible for his Son to get those people repent and convert So, will all due respect, brothers, nothing personal, I MUST CONCLUDE your theological system is BLASPHEMY!
You should not follow Calvin, who was loveless and ruthless in many ways. As you should know! Just follow Jesus, who showed the Father, Who was, besides holy and rightious, also love and mercyfull. And full of compassion.
I begin to understand why lots of people follow Rick Warren et al. Don’t understand me wrong, I believe Rick Warren is a false teacher and I have many reasons to support that. But a false teacher, so was Calvin! Loveless and ruthless. Not a good example, really!
As for Jacob and Esau: you very much like to take scripture out of context! That’s exactly what the Jehova’s Witnesses do. Please, do your homework first, and read some books from some good NOT-CALVINIST writers. Or is that forbidden for you?
Please, come out of the shadow!
One final scripture: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)
How much darkness was in Calvin? A lot! Learn your history!
And about ‘free will’: not having a ‘free will’ to choose right from wrong would be such a curse that would go against God’s nature. Some curses are mentioned in Genesis as result of the ‘fall’. Not this curse. Calvin (or rather Augustines) invented this doctrine. A doctrine from hell! If we had no free will we could never obey God. Then His command to obey and repent would be useless. That alone creates a huge contradiction. Think about that! Take a good look around you. Man is not TOTALLY DEPRIVED. Only the devil and his angels are. Only a few men are as deprived as the devil.
You’re trying to defend what cannot be defended from scripture! So I warn you: be careful.
Please reconsider some of your point of fews.
I know you all are good Christians. I consider you all my brother (and sisters) However, there is more than Calvinism. Learn some point of views from other angles else you could end up in some sect.
as this is my final post here,
God bless, and thanks you for all your responses,
until we meet again, somehow, somewhere.
Joop
61. donsands
August 25, 2006
6:43 PM
joop,
I must conclude with one thought. And this is my heart. I truly believe there is an infinite understanding here: The sovereignty of the Creator of all things, and man’s being responsible.
We are finite, and so we can only understand so much. There’s only one absolute truth. And i believe that with all my heart, but there is a mystery for me to the doctrine of election.
However, we must take the Scriptures for what they say. All the Scriptures.
And when I do this for myself, I come to believe that God is in 100% sovereign control of everything that goes on in His universe. Nothing can happen apart from His perfect will. Not even a sparrow can die. God is sovereign over evry cancer cell. Over every bullet that is fired from a gun. And over every heart of man. And I believe I am responsible for my life, and the way I have sinned.
I love to discuss these deep truths. It’s good for us. The Church is so shallow today.
God bless and keep you and your family.
62. Donna
August 25, 2006
10:49 PM
Hi All, Is there a scripture that clearly states that you will go to hell if you do/do not believe in predestination or the free will side of things? If not, then why is this an issue? Should we really be divided over this? Although, all here seem to not be condemning each other to hell. thanks!
63. moosiecat
August 25, 2006
10:51 PM
previous post signed Donna, should be “moosiecat”
64. Todd
August 26, 2006
12:07 AM
Joop, Seems most of the comments are to you on this issue.Many of us probably believed as you do once.Augustine and Calvin are not the inventors of these doctrines.If you were to credit them to a man it would have to be Paul.The Lord is the true author,as He inspired men to write the scriptures.And in the original manusripts they are word for word just as He inspired them. You mentioned darkness in Calvin’s life,but are we not all guilty of sin.Consider who wrote the majority of the Bible:Moses, David,and Paul.All three murderers,yet God’s chosen vessels. The doctrines you rail against were the doctrines of the church as a whole,apart from roman catholocism,until recently(give or take a century). Arminius was labeled a heritic in his day.Influenced by pelegianism he erred in his theology.The five points(doctrines of grace) were brought foreward,by the church counsel, to refute five critical errors. Dont know if you’ll read this at all after your last post,but here’s hoping. BTW,raised a southern baptist,spent much time researching this issue, which many modern baptists oppose.However these are historic southern baptist doctrines,the doctrines on which we were founded.Conclusion:only two systems of theology exist: 1) God is God - salvation by grace 2) man is god - salvation by works
In Christ
Todd
65. donsands
August 26, 2006
8:33 AM
moosiecat,
I feel the debating has been one of disagreement and respect. I don’t see the condemning.
And I believe it’s an important doctrine as well.
” .. that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—to know the love of Christ which is beyond knowing” Eph. 3:18-19
66. Joop
August 26, 2006
11:29 AM
My final post now? Anyway,
To Todd:
You quoted: You [Joop] mentioned darkness in Calvin’s life,but are we not all guilty of sin.Consider who wrote the majority of the Bible:Moses, David,and Paul.All three murderers,yet God’s chosen vessels Todd.
That’s typically compare apples with oranges. We know, David and Paul repented. There’s isn’t any scripture which directly stated Moses repented, however, he finally was the most meek person on earth. So I believe Moses repented as well.
When there was darkness in Calvin’s life, he never brought it to light, didn’t he?
You all should know Calvin had a great part in killing Micheal Servetus by burning him at the stake, will he was crying for mercy. Moreover, he took great part in persecuting alleged witches and other alleged heretics. Which isn’t exactly how we should treat one another according to Scripture, even if these allegations were true!
As far as I know, Calvin never repented. That’s why I cannot compare Calvin with Moses, David and Paul.
As for that, I’m not sure Calvin is with the Lord now. But the Lord is rightious, He conducts perfect judgement.
Yes Todd, you’re right we are (I would now say ‘were’) sinful. However, if we do not repent, we might -or should I say- we WILL be condemned!
You stated two possibillities on which doctrine is founded: 1) God is God - salvation by grace 2) man is god - salvation by works
Trust me: I choose the first! So at least we have an agreement on a major point!
To Donsands:
Thank you for all your comments and respect although we don’t agree on all matters, I appreciated to discuss with you.
God bless you, also your family!
Joop
67. moosiecat
August 26, 2006
2:33 PM
Dear Donsands, Sorry for the way I wrote out my statement - It was supposed to be in support for the total opposite way in which it was taken!! I truly feel that all are being respectful and just trying to share what they feel is on their heart. My apologies for any confusion on this! May the Holy Spirit unite us in His truth, moosiecat
68. Todd
August 26, 2006
3:54 PM
Joop and all Joop, Ive, enjoyed our discussion.It’s good for us;makes us study,both the Bible and church history.It’s my understanding that Calvin pleaded not to burn him. Its not necessary that we always agree, not much fun either.Looking foreward to future discussion.
To everyone else, Enjoyed reading your comments,lots of wisdom here.Looking foreward to future gleenings.
Mark Tubbs, You’re too kind.
Todd
69. Randy
August 27, 2006
1:22 AM
Wow! A friend of mine put me on to Challies about a year ago. Tonight I took some time and stumbled upon this comment thread. This is definitely a primarily Reformed discussion and though I have a Seminary MA (theology) I don’t feel particularly eager to dive in, so won’t — very much. (Can one dive part way?!)
I’m impressed with the sincere brotherly care going on — a desire to show respect while tangling with tough questions. Of course with the exception of Joop and Phia, everyone was ‘on the same side’ it seemed.
I grew up a Wesleyan — a so-called semi-Pelagian. We prefer, of course, to be considered semi-Augustinian. Being a Wesleyan, my understanding of ‘free moral agency’ had its challenges, especially as I tried to understand what it meant for God to be sovereign, etc. Of course, as you may expect, there were plenty of verses to suport the Wesleyan view on salvation and free will, though as you probably know, Wesley himself was a far better Calvinist than most of his progeny.
The hell question is huge and we are foolish to dismiss it. I have always felt it was a big problem for reformed theology, depravity notwithstanding. God can do as He pleases — He is God. He can get glory out of anything because that is the whole purpose of existence.
But glory out of ‘you-fill-in-the-blank’ atrocities? God’s glory is enhanced when children — none are innocent, I know — fall into hell to be tormented forever?
My friend who put me on to Challies has helped me understand the Reformed perspective on these things much better, at least it seems that way to me. But I still cannot see how mankind means anything at all in such a construct. I think my friend would say “That’s the point! It is not about us!” To which I must agree.
But if it is all about God and His glory I simply cannot see how life matters whatsoever. God WILL get glory, it is all about Him. (It could seem that the glory and wedding of the Son was central — there is a Trinitarian issue here, but that’s another discussion) Since He WILL get the glory, ALL is already decided. That being the case I can only see life as a near-charade, from the human viewpoint. Does that viewpoint matter, thus informed by the Reformed outlook? I thought it did….
Of course I do not think I am off course too badly — Lord, have mercy. And I do not want to play the Sword game — can we somehow recognize that the sabre-rattling with texts has been going on for centuries on these very issues and a consensus view has not emerged. (It would seem question-begging to offer Westminster, as good and helpful as it is.)
And that leads to the biggest quarrel I have with much of this debate. So often the Reformed position is presented as THE Scriptural position — one comment even suggested that historical theology showed Reformed tenets to be predominate. Well, that’s a tough statement, but in the context I do not know how it can be substantiated at all. Jump from late, anti-Pelagius Augustine (yes the battles with Pelagius pushed him a bit too far and the council, Orange, I believe, said so) to Calvin if you will, dismissing all in between as illegitimate Catholocism, but I can’t go there. And it is simply not true to say Reformed understanding of predestination, for example, dominates historical theology. If you go to the Fathers to substantiate that, good luck. And a fast view of the other options seems to leave one with either Roman Catholic understanding as it developed or a frozen-in-time Augustine who was 4th century…Roman Catholic. I know….
Thanks for letting me chime in. Like countless before and after us, we are intrigued by this difficult question. Enjoyed mulling it a bit and throwing out some thoughts.