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07/19/06
Comments (79)

Original Sin & the Death of Infants

It seems that people were surprised to learn, in an article I wrote last week, that I presume my children to be unsaved. The article, What’s Dead Looks Dead, expressed my belief that my children (ages 6, 3, and 3 months) are, at this time, likely unsaved and are thus spiritually dead. The subsequent discussion was very interesting and the commenters ranged from Reformed Baptists to Roman Catholics and just about everyone between. I was honestly very surprised at the reaction, for I had not thought that what I wrote was so controversial.

The comments turned quite quickly to a discussion of what happens to children who die in infancy. I’d like to discuss that issue along with my previous posts over the next couple of days.

There was a time that the issue of what happens to children who die in infancy was near and dear to the hearts of almost every family. It is only in recent days and in industrialized nations that the infant mortality rate has plunged. Only a few short decades ago almost every family knew the pain of losing children. I am grateful that I live in an age when this issue is, in many ways, abstract. Then again, we live in an age where countless millions of children are aborted each year. God has blessed us with the knowledge, understanding and technology to drastically reduce the number of children who die in infancy. Yet this same knowledge, understanding and technology has been used to terminate untold millions of lives. So perhaps this is an issue that is as relevant to our day as to any day.

When we examine the issue of what happens to children when they die, we will find four predominant views among believers. The first is that all children who die in infancy are saved. If one view holds an edge on the others in terms of the quantity (and perhaps even quality) of adherents, this would likely be the one. While all admit the Bible is not explicit in stating that every child who dies in infancy is saved, they believe it can be deduced from a study of relevant passages in Scripture. The second is that the children of believers are saved. This view, held by a minority of Christians, is dependent upon a belief in covenant theology, something that would put it at odds with many believers. This view indicates, then, that while the children of believers are saved, the children of most, if not all unbelievers, are reprobate. The fourth view is that we can have no assurance. This view simply states that there is not sufficient evidence in Scripture to make a firm determination. Eventually we must simply admit that this is an area in which Scripture is silent and leave it to God to work out. The final view is that unbaptized infants are not saved while baptized infants may be. This is the view of the Roman Catholic church and Protestant denominations which teach some form of baptismal regeneration. Because this view clashes with the beliefs of the vast majority of Protestants I will not address it at this time, for it would require in-depth understanding of the Catholic doctrines regarding baptism, something that is outside the scope of our discussion.

I’d like to briefly examine each of the first three teachings.

All Children Who Die In Infancy Are Saved

As mentioned earlier, this seems to be the predominant view in Christian circles, both mainstream and Reformed. Among the many notables who have held to this view are R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper, B.B. Warfield and Charles Spurgeon.

This view teaches that God, out of His grace chooses to save all who die in infancy. While adherents affirm the seriousness of original sin and acknowledge that all infants have inherited a sin nature from Adam, they also teach that God chooses to extend special grace to these infants. Sproul says “infants who die are given a special dispensation of the grace of God; it is not by their innocence but by God’s grace that they are received into heaven.” (Now That’s A Good Question, page 295). Sinful nature, then, is not sufficient reason for God to condemn the child, for where salvation is by grace, damnation is by works. Those who have not had opportunity to do works which explicitly and willfully reject God are not condemned to hell.

John MacArthur, in his book Safe In The Arms of God points out that the Bible consistently refers to the inhabitants of hell as being those who willfully committed sins and rebellion. He believes God does not condemn infants because: they have no willful rebellion or unbelief; they have never suppressed the truth; they have no understanding of sin’s impact or consequences; they have no debased behavior; and they have no ability to choose salvation. MacArthur concludes “there is no place in Scripture in which a person suffers the judgment of damnation on the basis of anything other than sinful deeds, including the sinful deed of disbelief—a conscious, willful, intentional choice to disbelieve. Furthermore, God does not charge people with sins until sins are committed.” (page 89)

John Piper, after acknowledging the presence and importance of original sin, says “if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God’s will or God’s glory then that person’s sin would not remain—God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see.” In response to Romans 1 which speaks of God’s revelation through nature as leaving those who have never heard the gospel without excuse Piper says “if a person did not have access to the revelation of God’s glory—did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it, then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment.” He concludes: “The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure. Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God’s inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.”

Having thoroughly studied this view, I believe that it fails to satisfactorily reconcile itself with the doctrine of original sin. So allow me a moment here to discuss original sin. Some theologians, Wayne Grudem and John Frame among them, believe that this term is misleading and prefer to speak of inherited sin. They are probably correct in their belief that this is superior. Still, for sake of ease, I will stick with the more common terminology. Paul teaches in Romans 5 that somehow, when Adam sinned, we all sinned. He begins this argument in verse 12 where he writes, “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…” He continues in verse 19 saying, “For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.” He teaches in verse 16 that all men have been held accountable for Adam’s sin: “For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation.” He repeats this point just two verses later saying, “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men…”

Original sin, according to Desiring God, is “the sinful tendencies, desires, and dispositions in our hearts with which we are all born.” It is the only explanation in all the world for the sin problem that plagues all of humanity. It is the only explanation for our sinful natures. It is something inherent in all of us and immediately manifests itself in all manner of sin and depravity. This doctrine tells us that we do not become sinners when we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.

Romans tells us in clear terms that were are born sinful and that Adam’s sin is held against all humanity. What it does not tell us is how this happens. But we know that somehow Adam’s sin is imputed to us. It is held against us as if we sinned in Adam’s place. There are several understandings of how Adam’s sin is imputed to us, but the best seems to be the representative view which teaches that God appointed Adam as representative for the human race. In his position as representative, Adam made a decision and took an action that affected all those whom he represented. This is similar to how the President of a nation, as representative of the people, can declare war on another nation, thus bringing every citizen of one nation into a state of war with every citizen of another nation. So not only have we inherited a sinful nature from Adam, but “we are also regarded as having sinned in Adam such that we are guilty of his act as well (imputed sin). Imputed sin is the ruin of our standing before God and is thus not an internal quality but an objective reckoning of guilt, whereas original sin is the ruin of our character and thus is a reference to internal qualities. Both original sin and imputed sin place us under the judgment of God” (Desiring God).

Original sin and the imputation of Adam’s sin are problems that plague even the youngest of human beings. Because they are inherent to all people, children are as fully and justly condemned as adults. The Bible makes no exceptions. The teaching of Scripture is clear: even if I never committed a sin throughout my entire life, I would still be justly condemned to hell because of the original sin of Adam. This sin is imputed to me because Adam, as representative of the human race, sinned on my behalf. We see the pervasiveness of this sin by the fact that Jesus had to be born of God rather than man, for that is the only way He could be born freed from the burden of original sin. As such He was pure, not just in His actions but also in His very nature. Adam’s sin was not imputed to Christ. If we are to believe that Christ stands as our representative in the act of redemption, we must also believe that Adam stands as our representative in the act of becoming a fallen people. We cannot have one without the other. Even children are born with a nature opposed to God.

When Sproul indicates that children “have not had opportunity to do works which explicitly and willfully reject God” he does not seem to account for the imputation of Adam’s sin to our account. When MacArthur says that the unregenerate are damned because of “a conscious, willful, intentional choice to disbelieve,” he also does not seem to reconcile the fact that Adam made a conscious, willful, intentional choice on our behalf and that this is imputed to us. And thus Adam’s sin is held against us. And so these men can make an argument that answers sin, at least to some extent, but not, as I understand it, a sinful nature.

Original Sin & the Death of Infants

Comments (79) »


1. John Divito
July 19, 2006
11:10 AM

Tim, you have summarized well my current thinking on this issue too.

BTW, Drs. Mohler and Akin also wrote on the death of infants: “The Salvation of the ‘Little Ones’: Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?

Regardless, I have never seen a theologian who defends the “All Children Who Die In Infancy Are Saved” view which exegetically deals with Romans 5 and federal headship. Until they provide a compelling argument from this biblical text and on the imputation of Adam’s sin, I cannot agree with their position.


2. Bill Combs
July 19, 2006
11:18 AM

“When MacArthur says that the unregenerate are damned because of ‘a conscious, willful, intentional choice to disbelieve,’ he also does not seem to reconcile the fact that we made a conscious, willful, intentional choice through Adam. And thus Adam’s sin is held against us.”

Tim, I agree with what you are saying, but a small quibble. I don’t think it is best to describe the representative view as “we made a conscious, willful, intentional choice through Adam.” I know you say “through Adam,” but the point of the representative view—versus realism—is that I did not make a conscious, willful, intentional choice—my representative, Adam, did. I am responsible for his conscious, willful, intentional choice, but it was his choice not mine. I believe that your statement betters describes realism, which suggests that we are co-sinners with Adam—when he sinned, we sinned. But in the representative view we did not actually sin when Adam sinned, but we do bear the penalty for his sin since he was our representative.


3. Hoshea
July 19, 2006
11:24 AM

You’re bold.

You’re liable to make a few enemies for not agreeing 100% with Piper, Sproul and MacArthur even though they don’t agree 100% on certain topics. ;-)

Nice thoughts. I believe that either way it falls, we can trust that all that God does is holy. Thus we need not fear that He’ll unrighteously condemn someone to hell or neglect to show His sovereign grace and mercy as He sees fit. I know that’s kind of “ducking” the issue. But it’s one of those things that is hard for some of us mental peons to fully deduce from scripture.

God bless.


4. Frank Martens
July 19, 2006
11:35 AM

“This sin is imputed to me because Adam, as representative of the human race, sinned on my behalf.”

Ok, sin was imputed, but was condemnation imputed? I believe that’s the difference. I’m not convinced yet that condemnation pertains to all until all are at an age to be accountable for their actions.

However, I can see how the nature of sin, or sin itself has been imputed to all.


5. SueS
July 19, 2006
11:43 AM

The thought of a baby going to hell is totally repugnant, even if that response is deemed to be “sentimental”. Since becoming Reformed and more aware of the consequences of original sin and election, I now lean more to the view that babies who die in infancy are elect, a view that is upheld by the authors you have quoted. Maybe the fact that I was once a mommy and am now the grandmother of a baby clouds my reasoning, but I fail to see the weakness you see in their conclusions. Your thoughts at the end of your post left me with the feeling that all babies who die go to hell because of their original sin. I’m not by any means trying to marginalize that very important doctrine but I believe that the grace of God is sufficient for those little ones who, though they are born with the stain of sin, are unable to turn to Christ for salvation. Of course, in the end, after all the debates by those learned and unlearned, it is still, thankfully, our sovereign God who makes that decision.


6. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
11:48 AM

“Ok, sin was imputed, but was condemnation imputed?”

I’m not sure how you could defend the position that condemnation was not imputed. If sin is imputed to us, surely so also is the condemnation. Where there is sin there MUST be condemnation. “For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation…”

Sin brought judgment and judgment brought condemnation.


7. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
11:52 AM

“The thought of a baby going to hell is totally repugnant, even if that response is deemed to be “sentimental”.”

It is. But it should not be any more or less repugnant than the thought of any person going to hell. Our sin natures are more than enough to render us guilty before God and deserving of punishment. Watch a tiny child throwing a tantrum over something inconceivably stupid and you cannot help but conclude that you’re witnessing a little sinner acting out that sin nature.

“Your thoughts at the end of your post left me with the feeling that all babies who die go to hell because of their original sin. I’m not by any means trying to marginalize that very important doctrine but I believe that the grace of God is sufficient for those little ones who, though they are born with the stain of sin, are unable to turn to Christ for salvation.”

I will withhold comment since I will cover this in some detail tomorrow as I look at the other positions.

“Of course, in the end, after all the debates by those learned and unlearned, it is still, thankfully, our sovereign God who makes that decision.”

It is indeed, and I believe that is where our refuge needs to be.


8. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
11:53 AM

“Regardless, I have never seen a theologian who defends the “All Children Who Die In Infancy Are Saved” view which exegetically deals with Romans 5 and federal headship. Until they provide a compelling argument from this biblical text and on the imputation of Adam’s sin, I cannot agree with their position.”

I quite agree. I’ve seen these men do a wonderful job of discussing Romans 5 in other contexts, but I’ve never seen a strong defense of the “all babies go to heaven” position in light of Romans 5.


9. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
11:54 AM

“Tim, I agree with what you are saying, but a small quibble. I don’t think it is best to describe the representative view as “we made a conscious, willful, intentional choice through Adam.” I know you say “through Adam,” but the point of the representative view—versus realism—is that I did not make a conscious, willful, intentional choice—my representative, Adam, did. I am responsible for his conscious, willful, intentional choice, but it was his choice not mine. I believe that your statement betters describes realism, which suggests that we are co-sinners with Adam—when he sinned, we sinned. But in the representative view we did not actually sin when Adam sinned, but we do bear the penalty for his sin since he was our representative.”

That is a fair critique. I should have inserted a “like.” It is like we sinned and the consequences are same as if we had sinned.


10. rebecca
July 19, 2006
11:57 AM

That’s Romans 5, not 12. :)

I’m personally undecided on this issue, and I don’t think I’ll know for sure in this life. There just isn’t enough evidence to come to a firm conclusion.


11. Doug
July 19, 2006
12:00 PM

Tim, great post!

Steve Camp has also written on this subject. Check out: http://tinyurl.com/5cwvt


12. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
12:03 PM

“That’s Romans 5, not 12. :)”

D’oh!

“I’m personally undecided on this issue, and I don’t think I’ll know for sure in this life. There just isn’t enough evidence to come to a firm conclusion.”

…not that this has kept people from trying! :)


13. Phillip
July 19, 2006
12:16 PM

This is a question that I have wrestled with…If all babies who die in infancy are saved, then:

a. why aren’t Christians pro-abortion? b. why aren’t Christians for infancticide?

Rather than “take the risk” of them not becoming believers when they grow up, why not “make sure” of their salvation through one of these two means?


14. Gavin Brown
July 19, 2006
12:23 PM

Tim,

Good post. One thing you didn’t clarify…what, the, is your position on the issue?

Food for thought: God showed pity upon Nineveh, a city in which there were more than 120,000 who did not know their right hand from their left.

Can this be seen as a reference to young children?

Also, Phil Johnson did a lecture called “When Infants die” You can downoad it for free at http://www.swordandtrowel.org/philsermons.htm


15. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
12:24 PM

“a. why aren’t Christians pro-abortion? b. why aren’t Christians for infancticide?”

Someone could make such an argument, but it would be pretty weak. After all, the end does not justify the means. You can believe in God and still value the sanctity of life.

But, as people often say, if you believe that all children who die in infancy go to heaven, abortion is, in some sense, an act of mercy since many of those children would no doubt go to hell. But again, these are both kind of silly arguments (kind of like the “because we have been saved and cannot fall away, now we can do whatever we want” argument).


16. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
12:24 PM

“One thing you didn’t clarify…what, the, is your position on the issue?”

We’ll get to that tomorrow.


17. James King
July 19, 2006
12:54 PM

This is a very interesting concept. You are indeed correct in that I have not heard anyone address this other than to simply state infants that die are automatically saved.

I think it would be presumptuous of us to think that a sovereign God, who, through his word as stated that ALL are guilty of sin, and who also chooses some to be saved and others not, would then choose all children to be saved out of hand.

I am interested if there is any scripture that could clear this up one way or another?


18. Thomas
July 19, 2006
1:33 PM

Tim,

I don�t know if you�ve read the article written by Drs. Mohler and Akin but in it, they give a convincing answer (in my mind) for the problem of inherited sin. God�s Election is the answer to the inherited sin. Also, Apostle Paul in Romans 5 gives us the answer to the problem (as he often does) of inherited sin which he had just pointed out. Romans 5:16, �But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.� The free gift = God�s grace = God�s sovereign choice of gifting to those undeserving = God�s Election. Children who die in infancy will be in heaven because they are God�s Elect, I believe.


19. Chris U
July 19, 2006
1:40 PM

“The teaching of Scripture is clear: even if I never committed a sin throughout my entire life, I would still be justly condemned to hell because of the original sin of Adam”

is it really? does Scripture leave room for those reading/hearing the text to not have sinned? “for all have sinned…”

the teaching of Scripture is clear: because I have sinned, I am justly condemned.

“For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.” i don’t think that means there’s imputed condemnation or sin, but that man would then carry the burden of the sinful nature. and in fact, while Christ was born of God, he was also born of man and faced every temptation, yet remained without sin. to me, it was because he remained without sin in the face of temptation, not that he was born of God and escaped imputed condemnation, that made Jesus the once-for-all sacrifice

all of that to say, i’m not arguing that all babies are saved, but i don’t think you can reject that argument because they might have imputed condemnation. they may in fact sin even as babes (disobedience might still be a sin even if explained by ignorance or the lack of capability to obey), or be born in sin, living every moment outside of a relationship with Christ, or something…


20. Chris de Vidal
July 19, 2006
1:47 PM

“Regardless, I have never seen a theologian who defends the ‘All Children Who Die In Infancy Are Saved’ view which exegetically deals with Romans 5 and federal headship. Until they provide a compelling argument from this biblical text and on the imputation of Adam’s sin, I cannot agree with their position.” — John Divito

John, I held onto precisely your position until last year when I heard my (reformed) pastor preach on this subject. He holds to federal headship and imputed/inherited sin. He did a fine job defending the doctrine and after much thought I changed my mind about it. I still have a copy of that sermon and would be willing to share it. Write me: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

To your point, Romans 5 is tough. But then so are the other verses used to support this; particularly, David’s grief over his son Absolom but no greif over his son from Bathsheba. I think they also refer to the book of Job when he says it would have been better had he not been born. Difficult passages, to be sure.

Isn’t it possible that babies, as Sproul stated, are received “by God’s grace”, the same amazing grace that received us, without merit?

But I confess that this blog discussion — particularly the difficulties of Romans 5 — has stirred in my spirit not to settle it. I’ll be thinking about this…


21. Jim J
July 19, 2006
1:52 PM

Thank you, Tim, for taking on this subject. It was after studying this topic that God truly opened my eyes to allow me to understand my sinfulness and salvataion by grace. Unless God’s grace had called me, I would still be in the same position as the infant, “not understanding….not [seeking] for God.”


22. Drew Pearce
July 19, 2006
2:38 PM

Great article. I’m really looking forward to the rest. This is something I’ve been dealing with lately, trying to come to a conclusion. “All babies who die go to heaven” preached a certain evangelical university that I used to attend. But then I was never able to find any scriptural support. Thanks for boldly discussing this subject.


23. Brian Thornton
July 19, 2006
3:33 PM

I think a great example that can refute the position put forth by Piper, Sproul and MacArthur that a person goes to hell based on their OWN personal sin (and therefore babies go to heaven because they haven’t personally sinned yet)is the example we have from Paul of Jacob and Esau.

Paul is VERY clear that Esau was condemned BEFORE he had been born and BEFORE he had done anything good or bad. I would ask Sproul, Piper and Mac why…why would Esau be condemned and Jacob chosen to be blessed prior to their own personal sin? Again, Scripture is clear…so that God’s gracious choice according to election would stand, and NOT according to works.

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” -Romans 9:10-13

Thanks for taking on this topic, Tim.


24. Erik
July 19, 2006
4:17 PM

I agree with you Sues. It’s not up to us who goes to heaven or hell (and it’s a good thing too).


25. Chris U
July 19, 2006
4:40 PM

romans 9 tells me they had not yet sinned, but that God prophetically spoke about the fate of 2 nations before their forefathers even left the womb, i don’t think it’s an obvious interpretation to say that they were condemned at that point

which brings up another issue, time… if someone was ever going to sin then i think that they are always condemned if you say that God is looking at all of time, our whole lives, as many people explain it. but that still leaves those who might never consciously sin such as an infant or fetus

and what about fetuses? are you all advancing that they are condemned? i’m not disagreeing, i’m not sure, just asking for clarification


26. Tim Challies
July 19, 2006
4:44 PM

“and what about fetuses? are you all advancing that they are condemned?”

Since a fetus must assume it’s sinful human nature at the moment of conception, I’d say that they must be sinful and, though it seems strange, deserving of condemnation. That is a statement on just how sinful humans really are.


27. Jeri
July 19, 2006
5:01 PM

I don’t know that you can use what God did in His choosing of Jacob and rejecting of Esau to refute the position of Piper and Macarthur and others. I also believe that some things we see through a glass darkly, and on some subjects it may be that no view is going to mesh satisfactorily with our doctrine! In the end, God says that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This is an area that since we can’t know, we should be very careful about. There are hurting parents who want to know where their baby or young child is now. I think the best answer we can give them is that the Bible doesn’t speak directly to this issue, but the Bible does tell us that all He does is good, just and right. Jesus clearly demonstrated His love and compassion for children in Matthew 18, revealing that they have a special place in His estimation. Since we must err, I believe it’s best to err on the side of great carefulness and mercy, especially since this is not a matter that we must prove one way or another in order to defend the faith or present the truth of the gospel. It’s enough to know that God can be trusted.


28. Ray
July 19, 2006
5:26 PM

I think it would be better to say that we don’t know for sure about the fate of infants and the unborn than to dogmatically and clearly assert as fact what the scripture does not clearly state. You are repeating a calumy that has been used to beat calvinists over the head with for generations. Your views on this matter have appeared before in church history and it led straight to infant baptism. Why would David say of the child of Bathsheba, ” I will go to him, but he shall not come to me. ” if ifants and innocent young children are automatically consigned to hell? Why did Jesus say of little children, ” See that you despise not one of these little ones, for in heavens their angels do always behold the face of my Father.”? This is a real can of worms you have openned here. Your first post about your own children wasn’t nearly this bad.


29. Brian Thornton
July 19, 2006
5:30 PM

romans 9 tells me they had not yet sinned, but that God prophetically spoke about the fate of 2 nations before their forefathers even left the womb, i don’t think it’s an obvious interpretation to say that they were condemned at that point

Romans 9 should also tell you that God hated Esau BEFORE he had done anything good or bad…Paul is very careful to make that point. Also, I think reading chapter 9 only from a national election perspective is wrong…do you think Esau would call it only the choosing and rejection of two nations…or do you think this whole thing was personal to Esau and Jacob?

Surely it was personal as well…as it is to you and I up to today…since it is those who are children of the promise who are regarded as descendants…the promise given to Arbaham, to Isaac…and then to Jacob.

What I have said before on this topic I’ll say again…IF any of those who die prematurely are saved, it is ONLY by grace THROUGH faith. There is nothing to be dogmatic about on this issue except that one thing, for there can be NO OTHER WAY for anyone to be saved…no matter what age or condition a person is in.

Salvation is by grace, through faith…faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. ANY position put forth that proclaims salvation by any other way is at once unbiblical and therefore wrong.


30. Caleb
July 19, 2006
5:37 PM

Mr. Challies,

Your site (“blog”) is very neat. I found it after reading your review of “The League of the Grateful Sons” on Amazon, by which I was impressed by your writing skills.

I hope you don’t mind, but I am blogging about that movie, and would like to quote a portion of your review. If you do, let me know. :)

As for this post, I believe that at this point in my life I agree with you. I also agree with the comment made previously by Hoshea, who said “…either way it falls, we can trust that all that God does is holy.”

I just wanted you to know that I am impressed with what you are doing, and to keep it up.

Thanks, and God Bless,

~Caleb, 15


31. Tom
July 19, 2006
7:24 PM

It would seem to me that scripture is clear that “all” have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If we belive that the elect go to heaven and everyone else has been passed over and go to hell then it is also possible that anyone who dies before they are at an age of understanding is elect. This would include children, and adults who have no mental capacity to understand. Scripture doesn’t say one way or another however it is still possible. I cannot say what God would or would not do outside of scripture or how far His grace extends or else I could be guilty of idolatry by making a god in my own image. I can only go on what scripture says and I believe that because of His choice and grace He has chosen to place the penalty of sin for those He has chosen upon His son. Can children die and go to hell? Sure, but it is also just as possible that every person that dies without the mental capacity of understanding their sin has been chosen by God and is one of Christs elect. You can debate all you want on the issue and we will never know until we are in glory if those who are too young or without the mental capacity to understand go to hell or not.


32. Joe
July 19, 2006
7:38 PM

If, as I believe, everything you need to know about God is found in the Word of God, and nothing you need to know about God is not found in the Word of God and everything you think you know about God that’s not in th eword of god you just made up, then this issue falls into one of those categories that we will just have to make up.

In fact, I believe that God accepts children up until the “age of accountability,” whatever that is, just because I believe it.

But I could be wrong.

But I don’t think I am.

But I don’t know why.


33. Brian Thornton
July 19, 2006
7:39 PM

Can children die and go to hell? Sure, but it is also just as possible that every person that dies without the mental capacity of understanding their sin has been chosen by God and is one of Christs elect.

Tom, Do you believe that this can happen outside of faith, which comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ?

A question for you: How can a person who dies without the mental capacity of understanding their sin have the mental capacity to assent to faith in Christ? Nothing being implied here by my question…just asking a question.


34. Pastor Phillip M. Way
July 19, 2006
7:47 PM

Tim,

One point to consider: How does Ezekiel 18:20 affect the position you have explained?

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Pastor Way


35. Michael Garner
July 19, 2006
8:12 PM

Tim. Good article.

Personally, I have a tendency to agree with Sues and thinl that the concept of an infant going to hell is repugnant. For this very reason, I held to the teaching of MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, etc., even though I found their views unusually weak. I have recently decided that I cannot hold to a position that I do not see clearly in Scripture regardless of what great teachers believe. The second I do so, I believe I have gone back 500 years and elevated Tradition above Scripture.

“Isn’t it possible that babies, as Sproul stated, are received “by God’s grace”, the same amazing grace that received us, without merit?”

Interestingly, I just heard Sproul say today that Possibility is not an argument. The point is that many many things are possible. However, we don’t believe things simply because they are possible, but rather that the facts (including the teaching of Scripture) point to such a belief. So, by that token, I would say that while it might be Possible that they are correct, it does not seem that it is a position that can be easily deduced from Scripture.

“I don’t know that you can use what God did in His choosing of Jacob and rejecting of Esau to refute the position of Piper and Macarthur and others.”

I believe the argument goes like this: Esau was hated before his sin. Therefore, God can choose to reject someone before they sin, are capable of sinning, etc. Therefore, even if infants are not yet capable of sinning, God would still be just in condemning them. It is not a positive argument for the position that God does send some/all infants to hell. It is a negative argument against the notion that because infants do not have the capability to sin, the capability to see/know God’s revelation, etc., that he will not send them to hell.

At the end of the day, I still maintain that Scripture is not clear enough on this issue to know for sure one way or another. I believe it is possible for God to graciously save all infants. I believe it is possible for God to save only the children of believers (using the two frequently used examples in Scripture, this position would fit). I believe it is possible for God to justly send all infants to hell.

While I believe all three are Possibilities, I am not convinced that we can speak of any of the three with certainty.

In Christ alone, mike


36. Ellen
July 19, 2006
8:55 PM

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

…And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.


37. pilgrim
July 19, 2006
9:38 PM

Any of the views have ways they fall apart-WHile I can’t be dogmatic that all infants who die are with the Lord, I lean that way. There are several arguments to uphold this, but are they ironclad?- One thing I am convinced of—any infants who die & are saved are saved by grace.

I believe this is possible (although not a given), because of Luke 1:39-41.


38. pilgrim
July 19, 2006
9:40 PM

Oops—I pressed post before I could copy & paste Luke 1:39-41.

39In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, 40and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,


39. diablaazul
July 19, 2006
9:56 PM

Quoting Tim: “The final view is that unbaptized infants are not saved while baptized infants may be. This is the view of the Roman Catholic church and Protestant denominations which teach some form of baptismal regeneration. Because this view clashes with the beliefs of the vast majority of Protestants I will not address it at this time, for it would require in-depth understanding of the Catholic doctrines regarding baptism, something that is outside the scope of our discussion”

Two objections: (1) How do you figure that the vast majority of Protestants don’t believe in baptismal regeneration? Anglicans, Lutherans and (some) Methodists believe in baptismal regeneration. The Anglican Communion is the largest united Protestant church in the world. Add the Lutherans and the number of Methodists who believe in baptismal regeneration to the Anglicans, and you have quite a sizeable portion of global Protestantism.

(2) Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that both unbaptized and baptized infants may be saved, as is evidenced from paragraph 1261 of the Catechism: “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”


40. Brian Thornton
July 19, 2006
10:47 PM

One thing I am convinced of—any infants who die & are saved are saved by grace.

I agree with this as well, pilgrim. And I think most (I hope all) here would agree with that also. But, I wonder how many would also agree that it is through faith from hearing, and that hearing is by the word of Christ.

Is there anyone here who DOESN’T believe that the infants who die and are saved are NOT saved through faith from hearing the word of Christ. If they are saved by grace, but NOT through faith, what are they saved through?

MacArthur, in his book ‘safe in the arms of God’, also affirms that they are saved by grace…but he calls it ‘comprehensive grace’, and he never qualifies this comprehensive grace as being through faith (not that I can locate…if anyone can site it for me where he does so in his book, please let me know).

Here is another troubling statement from Mac:

“Salvation is completely by grace, apart from works. Damnation is completely by works, apart from grace.” - p.89

Even if a person affirms original sin…how can a belief like the one quoted above be consistent with the results of original sin?

Any thoughts?


41. Peter D. Nelson
July 19, 2006
11:23 PM

Tim well done I believe you have hit the nail on the head with your comments regarding infants and original sin. I remember discussing this with another Reformed friend and his comment (flying in the face of his particular denomination which believes in presumptive regeneration I believe) said: Elect infants that die in infancy are saved through God’s grace by Christ. I believe that is the best possible way to look at the issue of infant death and original sin.


42. Nan
July 20, 2006
12:04 AM

Pastor Way quoted Ezekiel 18:20 “One point to consider: How does Ezekiel 18:20 affect the position you have explained?

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

In context chapter 18 of Ezekiel seems (to me) to be dealing with real earthly justice that ought to be dealt to individuals based on their actions. More of a penal code. “righteousness” and “wickedness” in this passage seem to have more of an ethical tone rather than what we know as “imputed” righteousness and wickedness. As we know from many other OT passages there were death sentences for all manner of breaches of levitical law. It just doesn’t seem to me that in the context of this passage, it is referring to eternal damnation or glorification. If a Christian commits murder and justly deserves the death sentence is he/she thereby not going to heaven? The death penalty here in Ezekial seems to me to be the earthly justice for acts of wickedness.

Ezekial 18:21-24 21”But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

* As for Brian Thornton’s commentary on “faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of Christ….”, faith is a gift. The only reason one can even hear is if he has been granted this gift of faith. The faith *is the gift that enables one to hear. Logical assent does not precede the gift of faith. You might think I’m parsing words to care so much which comes first but if God is able to call out to dead individuals and breathe into them the breath of life through His gift of faith, can He not also be free to do this to those who have no ability to respond as we, who have voices and functioning brains might? And is it possible that faith is not always expressed in words or in logical and cerebral understanding but in a life lived completely, fully dependant and surrendered unto God? I live under the assumption that God is free to do all His holy will. I don’t presume to know whom He has predestined and whom He has not. It makes sense to me that the potter can make for noble purposes some vessels, while with precision and care forming some for ignoble purposes, to be objects of wrath. That is not to insinuate that all babies go to hell. It is not to insinuate that all babies go to heaven. (And I have had four babies… one is still a baby so I have a vested interest!) It simply means He, and only He knows whom He has chosen for what purpose. Do I like to think of babies in hell? No. I don’t believe our souls hold any age in eternity though. I don’t presume that babies who die automatically become a special breed of soul in the afterlife (like cherubs!) They are souls, the same as we. They are dependant on the same grace, though they have no voice, who are we to say they have not been given ears to hear? Ears to hear are not always literal ears. Nan


43. Craig
July 20, 2006
12:25 AM

Tim,

I think you’ve done a good of explaining the positions. I also appreciate your honesty and consistency with regards to your own children.

Still, reading this post makes me very glad I am a (reformed evangelical) Anglican. My own children are full members of the covenant, and I have raised them as believers. I cannot imagine doing anything else.

cheers, Craig


44. Lin
July 20, 2006
12:48 AM

Matthew 18 The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5”And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

There are many questions about this. Why use the example of a little child? Was the child picked at random or a child that was elect for sure? We do not know.

Have you ever met a humble child? Most I know are greedy and selfish. I take it to mean humble as in innocence. I could be wrong. I am no theologan ( I can’t even spell it)

And why should we change and become like little children? What does he mean by that?

Why would welcoming a child be like welcoming Jesus?

And what is ‘child like’ faith?


45. Philippa
July 20, 2006
6:26 AM

“a. why aren’t Christians pro-abortion? b. why aren’t Christians for infancticide?”

Tim’s reply:

Someone could make such an argument, but it would be pretty weak. After all, the end does not justify the means. You can believe in God and still value the sanctity of life.

But, as people often say, if you believe that all children who die in infancy go to heaven, abortion is, in some sense, an act of mercy since many of those children would no doubt go to hell. But again, these are both kind of silly arguments (kind of like the “because we have been saved and cannot fall away, now we can do whatever we want” argument).

You’re right, Mr Challies, this is a silly argument. It’s not only very silly, it is also morally repulsive and makes an utter mockery of any serious pro-life position. Ugh!!!

Call me an Arminian wimp, but I’m siding with Mohler, Spurgeon and Piper on this one.

Lin - good questions. :)


46. Philippa
July 20, 2006
6:29 AM

Oh dear. Apologies for the double post, but that was really silly of me not to italicise Tim’s reply. To make it clear what I am responding to in my post above, here are Tim’s own words:

Tim’s reply:

Someone could make such an argument, but it would be pretty weak. After all, the end does not justify the means. You can believe in God and still value the sanctity of life.

But, as people often say, if you believe that all children who die in infancy go to heaven, abortion is, in some sense, an act of mercy since many of those children would no doubt go to hell. But again, these are both kind of silly arguments (kind of like the “because we have been saved and cannot fall away, now we can do whatever we want” argument).


47. Alex Chediak
July 20, 2006
7:20 AM

Tim and others,

This is a great discussion. I read almost every word in every comment above. I found Michael Gardner’s comments to be particularly lucid. The reason, I think, that some find Piper/MacArthur/Sproul, etc. to be “weak” on this is that Scripture has given less clarity. However, I think it likely that infants (and the mentally incapable) are saved, based on the Scriptures previously stated.

  1. Imputation notwithstanding, I am not aware of anyone in Scripture explicitly condemned by God because of imputed sin.
  2. Remember, Esau was rejected before he sinned, BUT Esau in fact survived his birth and demonstrated personal sinfulness. The verse merely teaches unconditional election. In the Rom 9 context, Paul’s goal is to NOT to answer our debate over infant salvation. Let’s not import this discussion into the Rom 9 text. Rather, Paul wants his hearers to understand that “not all (physical) Israel is (spiritual) Israel.” Salvation is by the call of God, not one’s lineage….and that justifies God, because the word of God has not failed, Rom 9:1-5 notwithstanding.

So I am not denying unconditional election or total depravity. I am simply saying that CONDEMNATION in the Bible seems (IMHO) to always be associated with one’s INDIVIDUAL sinfulness, and not imputed sin.

response?


48. Sam
July 20, 2006
7:30 AM

To the perfect Justice and Truth that is God, babies are like young vipers….I don’t think God finds them cute or adorable or lovable. He sees only disobedience. Remember, the greater part of humanity was created for the express purpose of damnation to proclaim and further the glory of God.

He will cast the babies into the flames without a second thought. They 100% deserve the unending pain they will suffer as a result of what they are… sinners by blood, sinners by decree, sinners created to sin and suffer. Every scream increases the glory of the Most High. He is sovereign and will never let anyone forget it.

This view may sound tough, but the Bible is not there for comfort…it’s there to tell it like it is.

Perhaps it’s better to avoid the question with parents who have lost a child.


49. Alex Chediak
July 20, 2006
7:51 AM

Sam,

Can you point to one reputable Christian scholar in church history that has argued that way? I believe that what you wrote is repugnant to most Calvinistic divines. That does not mean you are wrong. But it does mean you might want to re-think the matter.

No offense intended, but are you in the pastorate? If not, have you discussed this view with your pastor?


50. Philippa
July 20, 2006
8:17 AM

Boy oh boy. Now it’s hotted up!

Well, Sam, I’m sure you must derive some comfort from your religious views. Can’t imagine where the comfort might be, but here goes:

Remember, the greater part of humanity was created for the express purpose of damnation to proclaim and further the glory of God.

Humanity was NOT created for the express purpose of damnation! Not only did John Calvin never teach such a stupid thing, much more importantly the Bible doesn’t.

He will cast the babies into the flames without a second thought. They 100% deserve the unending pain they will suffer as a result of what they are… sinners by blood, sinners by decree, sinners created to sin and suffer. Every scream increases the glory of the Most High. He is sovereign and will never let anyone forget it.

Well, this is like some kind of HyperCalvinist caricature. Here we have an angry and vengeful God taking pleasure in the screams of a tormented baby burning in hell. It would make me laugh if it were not so utterly vile.

The god you portray, Sam, is a celestial monster, a figment of your religious imagination. ‘Every scream increases the glory of the Most High’. What is the scriptural justification for this? Where does the Bible say that the screams of the damned increase the glory of God? Scripture tells us that God takes no pleasure in the death of a sinner.

And why would you want to avoid the question with parents who have lost a young child? Don’t you have the courage of your convictions?

But seriously, I wouldn’t want to let someone with these kinds of beliefs within a million miles of parents who have lost a young child. I can’t imagine what message of hope and comfort you could possibly give them, because in your particular system of belief, there is none. No hope. No assurance. Only an angry god who hates the vast majority of beings he himself has created. Not a holy yet loving God who reveals Himself in mercy to His undeserving, lost children.


51. The Aspiring Theologian
July 20, 2006
8:25 AM

Whew! Tough subject. Here is what one theologian says on it:

IIIMM On Infant Death

I want to lean towards the fact that God saves them, but in truth, we really don’t know. It’s hard to say. Scripture doesn’t deal with the issue much. I suppose we will find out one day when we get to ask God Himself.

Everyone have a nice day.

God bless,

A. Shepherd The Aspiring Theologian


52. Chris Poteet
July 20, 2006
8:38 AM

Tim,

I agree that the above position fails to account for the depth of inherited/original sin. I responded to Mohler’s view (which is the one you described above): Response To R. Albert Mohler: Do Infants Who Die Go To Heaven?.


53. Chris de Vidal
July 20, 2006
8:45 AM

Earlier I said: “John, I held onto precisely your position until last year when I heard my (reformed) pastor preach on this subject. He holds to federal headship and imputed/inherited sin. He did a fine job defending the doctrine and after much thought I changed my mind about it.”

Someone dropped me an email and asked: “Can you possibly share the sermon you mentioned, that takes the federal headship/imputed sin view of Rom 5:12 and (if I understand you) argues for the salvation of all infants?”

I apologize, I should have been clearer.

What I was trying to say was my pastor is in full agreement with Romans 5:12, federal headship, etc., speaks on it often. We are a Sovereign Grace church under the leadership of C.J. Mahaney. Despite his stand on this on other Sunday mornings, he argued for the salvation of infants anyway, that particular Sunday morning.

He argued so forceably and with so many strong scripture references that I had to ponder it for several weeks and came to the conclusion that God extends them the same grace he extends us. Perhaps the problem is this grace does not come by faith, ala Ephesians 2:8. I’ll have to keep pondering it.

I don’t recall if he mentioned the concept of federal headship or Romans 5 so as to be consistent. I’ll have to listen to it again.

I still have a copy of that sermon and would be willing to share it. Write me: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.


54. Jerry Morningstar
July 20, 2006
9:11 AM

Sam - I think you put the issue in language that makes the issue a little more clear. My question is that given the picture we are given of God in the Scripture - Does the condemnation of babies seem consistent with His character? i.e. Is this a fair reflection of the God who is just?

Yes - He is holy - but He is also just.

I think one of the main reasons this issue is controversial is because it so blatantly goes against one’s sense of fairness. Imagine being a soul in hell and thinking - wow - I ended up here because I was born - or rather conceived. Does that honor God? I really do think the theodicy issue needs to be thought thru if one wants to press the issue.

Show how it is rational for a holy and loving God who is all powerful and all-good to create a universe such as you are describing including the damnation of infants.

Let’s not dishonor God by ascribing to Him actions He never clearly says He does. Find some description of hell populated not only by the immoral, the murderers, the liars, etc. - - but also by those with the potential to commit those sins - but having never actually committed them.


55. Greg in Colorado
July 20, 2006
9:14 AM

Tim,

According to Revelation 20:12 at the Great White Throne Judgment, the dead, small and great will have books opened and they will be judged “according to their works, by the things written in the books.”

How can an infant who dies in childbirth be judged for his/her works?

If they have committed no deeds, how does this apply to eternal destination?

In Christ, Greg


56. Mike Young
July 20, 2006
9:52 AM

John Piper, after acknowledging the presence and importance of original sin, says “if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God’s will or God’s glory then that person’s sin would not remain—God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see.”

Wow! Talk about a ton of comments on this for a one day post.

I have a problem with this statement by Piper, given I don’t have the full context. It seems to be a major contradiction to 1Cor 2:14 about the natural man being utterly incapable of seeing, let alone understanding, the revelations of God. All people lack the “natural” capacity to see and comprehend such truths and all people lack the natural capacity to repent.

I originally came across Mohler’s article a couple years back and was actually impressed by his response. Likewise, we touched on this two Sunday evenings ago in a Q&A session.

I agree with many on this blog that you can’t arbitrarily do away with imputed sin. We are all born sinners, not just possessing the capacity and nature to sin. Hence, we are all born worthy of the judgement.

Now, God does provide several examples of his unmitigated grace. And, after all, it’s according to his mercy we’re saved.

Having said that, when the Israelites sinned against God in the wilderness and were subsequently denied access to the promised land, the children were allowed to enter. Now, these children were sinners. But God did not charge them with the sin of those before them.

I do think the Ninevah example is a good one too, that another raised. Clearly the people discussed lacked the capacity on their own.

In the end, I do believe that only the Elect of God are atoned for. And perhaps, just perhaps, the death of an infant manifests that the infant is named amongst us.

But it is very clear that God has opted not to give us full revelation of this matter. We only have examples and some understanding of his grace and mercy to operate with.

-Mike


57. Brian Thornton
July 20, 2006
10:01 AM

How can an infant who dies in childbirth be judged for his/her works?

If they have committed no deeds, how does this apply to eternal destination?

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. - Ps. 51:5

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died,

much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation,

but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one,

much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,

even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners,

even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:15-19


58. Jeri
July 20, 2006
10:17 AM

Greg in Colorado, your comment

“According to Revelation 20:12 at the Great White Throne Judgment, the dead, small and great will have books opened and they will be judged “according to their works, by the things written in the books.”

provides us an insight into another aspect of Scriptural truth that we do well to consider. We focus rightly on our justification by grace alone, through faith alone, but the Bible also speaks a lot of our deeds and works.


59. Alex Chediak
July 20, 2006
10:17 AM

Brian,

No one is denying imputation. Your last comment is irrelevant. We agree that all are conceived as sinners. What is in dispute is whether being constituted a sinner in Adam brings condemnation or whether one must have individual, actual sins of his own. That this distinction is recognized historically, see John Murray’s The Imputation of Adam’s Sin.

Mike,

When Piper says “natural capacity” in that excerpt you quoted, I do not think he is referring to “natural” in the I Cor 2:14 sense, else God could not judge any sinner (since they are all, by nature, hostile towards God, Eph 2:1-4).

I think he means “natural” in the sense of intellectual aptitute. Able to comprehend moral truths on a mental level, and hence able to commit acts of sin. Able to consciously choose to do things an individual knows to be wrong. And even those “without the law” will violate their (uninformed, unreliable) conscience. Of course all infants will, if given sufficient time on this earth, do such evil acts, and that repeatedly.


60. Alex Chediak
July 20, 2006
10:21 AM

Brian,

I just noticed that in your quote from Rom 5, you started in vs. 15. The heart of the controversy is in 5:12.


61. Brian Thornton
July 20, 2006
10:32 AM

“What is in dispute is whether being constituted a sinner in Adam brings condemnation or whether one must have individual, actual sins of his own.”

I think these statements from Paul in Romans 5 answer your questions concerning condemnation, don’t they?

for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation,

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,

If this condemnation Paul speaks of is separate from some other condemnation due to our own actual sins, then what is the point of the condemnation Paul speaks of in Romans 5?

Also, IF a person is sent to hell ONLY due to their own personal sin…then what is the point of original sin? Is it not meaningless at that point?


62. Mike Young
July 20, 2006
10:45 AM

Alex: I agree with you. That’s why I said the way it was provided without context, that’s the implication. I’d like to give him benefit of the doubt, however.

And the imputation of original sin does not become irrelevent if God happens to to dispense mercy on some. Perhaps in a system where one is “saved” by his own faith, this would be the case. But in the provided system where he extends grace and faith according to both his mercy and his good pleasure, I’d say it makes the gift that much more special.

The fact that we’re born sinners merely reinforces the fact that we cannot simply overcome our sin nature to please God. We simply don’t stand a chance. Therefore only those whom God shows mercy can have any hope of heaven.


63. Joel
July 20, 2006
11:17 AM

Diablaazul, thanks for the exact quote formm the catechism. I was going to point that out, too.

Tim’s take on the Catholic view is a pretty common assumption, but not quite on the money. Baptized babies would probably be saved, since baptism erases original sin and they haven’t had the chance to commit any actual sin (Augustine’s Confessions notwithstanding). But as far as unbaptized babies go, the Church simply doesn’t claim to know. Limbo has been posited, but I think the most common tendency is to assume that God is merciful at every opportunity.


64. Greg in Colorado
July 20, 2006
11:24 AM

Brian & others who are dogmatic about this:

In all graciousness I submit to you:

Romans 11:33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?” “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

We ALL know the context of Romans 9-11!!!

I completely agree with Alex (59) and Mike (62) so I won’t repeat there comments here. Thank you gentlemen!

In Christ, Greg


65. Brian Thornton
July 20, 2006
12:29 PM

Brian & others who are dogmatic about this

Greg, If you will read my comments, the ONLY thing I have been dogmatic about is salvation by grace, through faith, and that faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


66. Michael Garner
July 20, 2006
1:50 PM

Alex,

Thanks for the comment. I’m not described as lucid very often :) Just a note - no D in my last name.

Now, on to the substance of what seems to be your argument. Can you show a reason that we should believe that although a person inherit’s their sinful nature they do not inherit the condemnatation until they actualize their sin by action?

Romans 5 is one of the chapters most frequently used to support the doctrine of original (inherited) sin, which you clearly accept. However, in the discussion it seems evident that Paul links Adam’s sin to the condemnation of all men. Now, of course your view could still work within that framework (ie. Adam’s sin brought condemnation to all men in the sense that they are born sinful, actually sin, and are thus condemned). I don’t believe that is a typical understanding of Original Sin, but I’m willing to entertain the idea if you could show me some scriptural reason why we ought to hold said view.

Thanks a lot.

In Christ alone, mike


67. Lin
July 20, 2006
2:53 PM

>

Not a second thought, eh? Then why go to all the bother to send His only Son to suffer and die for us? So reprobate babies could be thrown into the fire? I know…His ways are not our ways…

Quite frankly, what you are describing sounds more like Allah than our Gracious God.

‘Every scream of an infant increases the glory of God’…Gee, brother, I hope you are on your knees about that statement begging him NOT to if that is what you believe.

While I agree there is NO scripture that gives us proof of what happens to infants or retarded people, etc., we do have proof of Jesus taking on our sin, being under Grace, etc. I still think there is something to Matthew 18. It just does not make sense that he would use a child to teach that. Children are the least humble creatures I know.

I have ONE question: How can a baby repent? How can a retarded person repent?


68. Jason S. Kong
July 20, 2006
10:50 PM

I want to know, Tim, what your thoughts are, then, about this article, which argues against the meaning of Original Sin in the way you wrote (particularly the imputation of sin from Adam).

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/origsin.html

Thanks.

Something else is that NT writers did not seem to find any Christological significance in the Virgin Birth any more than Jesus’ other miracles, collectively. Hence, Paul does not cite it in his letters. In fact, it seems the only reason it was included was to show fulfillment of prophecy.

JP Holding tackles the issue in the first part of the following cite here:

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/virginbirth.html

Please tell me what you think.

-Jason S. Kong


69. Sam
July 21, 2006
1:43 AM

Sorry for being blunt, but I think that hiding the truth behind the “Terrible Decree” behind words like “pass over” or “allow to continue in their sin” are just ways to make God’s power and might and justice more palatable to our puny minds, filled as we are with weakness and emotion and arrogant assumption of our own importance.

The cold hard facts are that the damned are damned, and there is nothing they can do about it. This is bedrock Reformed theology. The damned were created damned for all eternity before they were born, even if this is often softened by sophistry and wordplay.

The Bible says God is just and delights in the deserved punishment of the wicked, and we are all wicked and deserve infinite punishment. The glory of the gospel is that a few are snatched out of the flames by the loving mercy of God. But this does not change the disposition of the damned. They are exactly like the Elect, just not meant to be saved. Which means that since they were not created for glory, they were created to demonstrate God’s might by their eternal suffering.

I see no age limits to the justice of God. Babies are depraved sinners just like the rest of it by Adam’s disobedience, or Original Sin means nothing. Damned babies and children and teens and adults and old people will burn forever to demonstrate God’s power, and this is obviously beautiful and just in the eyes of God, for all things work out for His glory. He is sovereign, and can do as he sees fit. We are not to argue with him on account of our selfish emotional reactions.

We recoil at the image of someone roasting forever, having never lived or understood, because we cannot understand how offensive the damned are to the Glory and Justice of the Lord. Those who are saved will eventually revel in the rightness and justice of this fate. I’m no more comfortable with the idea myself, but I cannot find any Scriptural grounds to challenge it, as has been pointed out over and over. I’m just not willing to make it seem soft and kind (in human terms).

As for God’s love, there is no love for the damned. God sent his Son to save the Elect. All of the wonderful caring, merciful, loving language in the Bible is directed toward the Elect. If a baby is saved, it will repent because the Lord will see his plans finished. We do not understand how, but we don’t need to. We just need believe the words of the Bible and not try to create false hope on an emotional basis.


70. Philippa
July 21, 2006
5:15 AM

Sam,

You said:

The Bible says God is just and delights in the deserved punishment of the wicked.

Please cite your Scriptural evidence for this view. How does this square with, for example, God’s mercy and grace to undeserving, sinful Nineveh? Scripture says that God takes no pleasure in the death of a sinner.

Damned babies and children and teens and adults and old people will burn forever to demonstrate God’s power, and this is obviously beautiful and just in the eyes of God, for all things work out for His glory.

Ugh.

Your version of God sounds more like Osama bin Ladin’s perverted and distorted version of God. What, in all honesty, is the moral difference between this repugnant theology and that of bin Ladin’s deluded terrorists, thinking they are doing their terrible God some kind of favour by mass murder? Actually, I see no moral difference between this sort of cold, implacable, vengeful deity and the ghastly demon-god Molech, to whom the Canaanites sacrificed their children in the fire.

I’d better bow out of this debate, I think.


71. Joel
July 21, 2006
12:23 PM

I’m with you, Philippa. That sounds more like a caricature of Calvinism than any sort of Christian theology.


72. Philippa
July 21, 2006
12:56 PM

Thanks, Joel. :)

I’m not Calvinist at all - which should be pretty obvious - but I have a lot of respect for the Reformed tradition, and I do realise that Sam’s views are not representative of folk who comment on Tim’s site or indeed of those in the Reformed camp in general.

Cheers, Philippa


73. Rey
July 21, 2006
8:47 PM

Wow. I mean that not in a good way and focused primarily on some of the comments. Wow.


74. pilgrim
July 21, 2006
11:10 PM

“I agree with this as well, pilgrim. And I think most (I hope all) here would agree with that also. But, I wonder how many would also agree that it is through faith from hearing, and that hearing is by the word of Christ.”

I would like to add thet we know babies can hear voices inside the womb—who’s to say they didn’t hear the gospel, and were grnated understanding?

I can neither state this to be true dogmatically—nor deny it dogmatically.

As I said—any infants saved are saved by grace—and somehow, some way, God works it out.


75. Chris de Vidal
August 1, 2006
9:48 AM

My pastor’s message on this topic, which influenced me to change my position from “babies go to hell, unfortunately” to “babies will be in heaven.” Listen to it a few times and ponder. http://devidal.tv/~chris/Grace%20Covenant%20Church%20-%20What%20Happens%20to%20Babies%20that%20Die%20(George%20Harrington)%20(October%2023rd%202005).mp3

My pastor did indeed discuss the implications of Romans 5.

This message appears to have borrowed many elements from these Johnny Mac sermons: http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0142.htm http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0143.htm


76. Andy Chance
August 1, 2006
2:16 PM

I think there are a couple of things regarding imputed sins that you didn’t mention that, in fairness, you should have. To my knowledge,

  1. The Reformed proponents of view #1 do not deny the imputation of Adam’s sins to all, including infants.
  2. They do not deny that all human beings deserve to go to hell, including children.
  3. They point out that, despite multiple explicit statements on who will go to hell, it is never stated that anyone will go to hell without willingly rebelling against God’s natural revelation.
  4. Scripture does indicate that people are culpable for the revelation they receive.

This still may not warrant a definitive proclamation that all who die in infancy go to heaven, but it certainly offers a great deal of hope that they will.


77. Jerry Morningstar
August 1, 2006
7:01 PM

I think we get a picture of God’s great justice when he told Israel - ‘eye for an eye - tooth for a tooth’. That principle was a gracious limitation on the punishment that could be exacted. i.e. punishment needed to fit the crime. I think it would be fair to suggest that we can expect nothing less in God’s eternal dealings - whether we can determine what that specific justice will be - is where Scripture is rather silent

Certainly the fact that the infant has not broken any commands, disregarded any of God’s laws, ignored any of His revelatory truth places him in a category that Scripture does not address.

Is Romans 5 intended to be used as a text to cast infants into hell? I really don’t think that is what Paul had in mind. His whole focus in the early chapters of Romans is to establish the guilt of Jew, Gentile alike. He wasn’t addressing infants or even likely referring to them. He was addressing rational creatures who stood guilty before God because if they had the law - they violated it. If they didn’t have the law - they still went against the law of the conscience. If they had the Word of God - they didn’t keep it. If they had only general revelation - they still didn’t listen to it.

It’s a bit out of place [in my mind] to erect a platform of infant condemnation in such a context


78. james
August 2, 2006
3:32 PM

I see a lot of people trying to defend all infants go to heaven here using RED HEARINGS. First, you assume all infants are “innocent” and God sees them as having “no works” of sin, RED HEARINGS. When this post was started it was explained that sin is IMPUTED, so the “works” of Adam’s sin was IMPUTED to infants. Just because someone dosen’t know they’er damned doesen’t mean God owes them a ticket to heaven. Also, someone earlier said that saying infants go to heaven isn’t really substantial for the Pro-abortion movement. Well they’er WRONG, because it is substantial. They’er being illogical and a liar because a “momentary” sin that sends a babie to heaven for “ETERNAL” life with Jesus far outweights the “momentary” sin of killing an infant. If your theology is true then send me ten infants right now so i can send them to heaven, i’ll give my life and commit a “momentary” sin to send 10 babies to heaven and be assured of their salvation(just an example, i would never harm a human).


79. neo
August 2, 2006
4:52 PM

What I’m about to say I know is what the bible teaches. I never look at the bible trying to please anyone. Rather it’s written to not lean to our own understanding. So lets put all bias aside and look to what the scripture really teaches on this issue. First off to say this is grievous to me and I know it grieves God too. To build on what I said earlier I’ll restate a few biblical points. 1.) all babies, young children, mentally handicam people are all born sinners. 2.) not knowing they’er sinners doesen’t guarantee them God’s grace. 3.) God owes us nothing, no one is qualified unless they come by grace through faith to Jesus Christ by God’s will. 4.) saying all babies go to heaven is a “destructive heresy” that promotes immorailty(mainly to kill infants to make sure they go to heaven). 5.) no baby is born “innocent” or without the imputed “works” of sin that Adam did…so lets move on from here. Many of you would believe that if you are born “spiritually” and a spritual babie that if you die you would go to heaven because you were born spiritually. Now lets look at the thesis and antithesis of this biblical teaching. Before you were born spiritually alive and became a spiritual babie you were born what? You were born spiritually dead. Now if you believe that once born spiritually you cannot lose your salvation then why do you think if you’re born unspiritual that you can lose your condemnation? Your salvation is assured if you’re born spiritually, therefore your condemnation is assured if you’re born unspiritual. You claim infants are “innocent” based on they haven’t done any “works” to condemn them. We are all Justified if we believe in Jesus Christ by faith alone based on the works Jesus did on the cross. We are born Condemned based on the works Adam did in the garden. Which is why we were born spiritually dead and condemned. Jesus is the “second Adam”(1 Corinthians 15). Lets say that we know “faith without works is dead”(James 2). So if we are born spiritually we will have saving faith shown by our works. We know that we are unspiritual which is why we sin. Condemnation without works is dead. Now a babie is born Justified for eternal condemnation based on the works of Adam. You believe that if you are born spiritually based on faith alone and you die a spiritual “babie” that you still go to heaven. So why would you believe that if you’re born an unspiritual “babie” that you don’t go to hell? To claim that babies go to heaven is hypocrisy, immoral, and it’s proven right here, right now. You want religion your way…well guess what, God is burger king ..sorry if i sound arrogant, but this is what the bible teaches..and i only seek to speak the truth even if it does grieve me to know this…which i have a feeling most of you would rather not know..but you claim to want to know..now you do