Last weekend I enjoyed participating in the Ligonier Ministries National Conference, both as a blogger and an observer. It was a joy to gather with almost 5,000 other Christians so we could spend three days focusing on the holiness of God. This marked my third time going to this conference and each one has proven valuable to my knowledge of God and my love for him. This one may well have been my favorite, at least when I think back to the speakers and their messages. I would encourage you to find and purchase the conference audio as I know you will be blessed.
There is one feature of this conference that always jumps out at me—interpretation services for the deaf. Of course this is not the only conference that offers this service and if you have been to a major conference you may well have seen Chuck and Nancy Snyder or another set of interpreters doing their work at the front of the auditorium. It is one of my pleasures, a guilty pleasure perhaps, to occasionally pause during singing to watch the deaf believers sing (sign) their praises to God. For some reason I always find it tremendously moving.
I don’t know exactly why it is that I am so moved and sometimes even brought to tears by watching these believers praise God in their own way. I want to be careful not to romanticize deafness, realizing, of course, that deafness, as with any physical condition or affliction, is a result of man’s Fall into sin and the kind of condition that Jesus healed while he was on this earth. It is a condition that will be fully and finally cured when we go to be in his presence.
The chapter 35 of Isaiah, the prophet writes of just such a day:
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
and the ears of the deaf unstopped;
then shall the lame man leap like a deer,
and the tongue of the mute sing for joy.
What a day that will be.
I wonder, though, if their praise so moves me because I see them using their whole bodies to offer praise to God. And in so doing they seem to have found a kind of freedom that few of us feel. We are all accustomed to singing praises to God with our lips but as I looked around during one of the occasions that we worshiped God with music, I saw a lot of people singing joyfully, but doing so while standing stock still. But up at the front were two rows of Christians singing for joy with their hands, their lips, their whole bodies. Perhaps no sound came from their lips, but praise came from their hearts and expressed itself through their bodies. Time after time, when I’ve gone to conferences and paused to watch these brothers and sisters worshiping, I’ve seen this unique expression of praise. Every time it has been a tremendous encouragement to me.
While I was watching them praise God I began to think how much they must anticipate that great day where their ears will be unstopped and they will at last be able to enjoy the music they have been worshiping to, when they will be able to hear the voices of the ones they love, and when they will be able to hear the words of their Savior as he says, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” But then I realized that I was standing still as I brought my gift of praise to God, worshiping with my mouth but giving little other outward evidence of my joy for all that God has done and for all that God is. And I wondered, in heaven, will they be more like us or will we be more like them? My guess is that we will probably meet somewhere in the middle.
Nancy Snyder Interpreting for the Deaf
Comments (37) »
1. Steve
March 23, 2009
9:55 AM
…mess with the bull, get the horns!
2. Brendt Waters
March 23, 2009
10:03 AM
Not to minimize deafness, but I also see sign-language as exactly that — another language. It may be no more understandable to me than when a brother sings praises in Swahili, but (knowing what it is, in general) it is also no less beautiful.
3. Lori
March 23, 2009
10:37 AM
American Sign Language (ASL, used in Canada and the U.S.) has indeed been proven to be a legitimate language in every way, not English in movements. My husband is deaf, and I am careful to only use ASL in public worship when I am interpreting for him or sign singing with him, as I have seen it misused by hearing people who are not interpreting to draw attention to themselves. (He is the only deaf person in our church, and we sit near the back so we won’t distract anyone.) But it is indeed deeply moving and joyful for me. I hope that, even though the deaf will be healed in heaven, they will still be allowed to worship in their earthly language, and I hope that I’ll be allowed to do so as well. Thanks, Tim, for this.
4. Donovan Drew
March 23, 2009
12:56 PM
I’m often moved by this myself, Tim. In addition to what you mentioned above, I’m moved by any expression of worship in another language or culture - it reminds me of the incredible diversity and unity of the church, all in God’s plan and made possible only by the Spirit, and it’s beautiful. And I’m also moved whenever I see anyone with a disability praising God wholeheartedly… There are many people who shake their fists at God because of hardships in life, and it’s wonderful to see people who face such great difficulties trusting Him with them, and finding such joy in Him. It can be very convicting. I remember feeling sorry for myself on one occasion, before remembering a disabled sister’s constant joy in Christ… She can only talk very slowly and with great effort, and is confined to a wheelchair, but she is as loving and joyful and delights in her Savior as much as anyone I’ve ever met. I remember thinking to myself, “in this race of faith, I need to run like she runs”…
5. Greg Gifford
March 23, 2009
3:40 PM
Our church has a deaf ministry. As shared, it is always a joy observing their participation in worship. We love our deaf and they love us. We see ourselves as one. On occasion our whole church has learned to sign a song together. Athough the deaf participate in the first part of our worship service, they do not stay for the preaching of God’s Word. Their perspective is that those who are deaf are unable to sustain the kind of attention needed to comprehend a message being presented to a hearing audience. This is not a problem or issue in our church, but I would be interested in knowing to what degree the deaf who attend the conferences are able to grasp the content of the messages. The speakers at these conferences present significant in-depth teaching.
6. Nahomi Dhinakar
March 23, 2009
7:18 PM
“And I wondered, in heaven, will they be more like us or will we be more like them? My guess is that we will probably meet somewhere in the middle.”
A happy thought.
-n-
7. Lori
March 23, 2009
9:20 PM
Greg,
It’s great that your church has a deaf ministry. But you said, “they do not stay for the preaching of God’s Word. Their perspective is that those who are deaf are unable to sustain the kind of attention needed to comprehend a message being presented to a hearing audience.” This is very sad to me, the hearing wife of a deaf man. Unless they are further handicapped in some way, there is no reason that Christians who are deaf can’t comprehend Bible teaching if they have competent interpreters. And what kind of a ministry is it to them if they aren’t being taught from the Word? You also said, “I would be interested in knowing to what degree the deaf who attend the conferences are able to grasp the content of the messages. The speakers at these conferences present significant in-depth teaching.” I’m sure you mean well, but making such assumptions about all deaf people seems patronizing and prejudiced. Just like hearing people, they come with all different levels of abilities, and they can increase in Bible knowledge and understanding as they are taught and as the Holy Spirit enables them.
8. Greg Gifford
March 23, 2009
10:58 PM
Hi Lori:
I’m sorry if I sounded patronizing and prejudiced. I should have given more background. This is the first church I’ve served in with a deaf ministry. Personally, I believe that the deaf ought to sit under the preaching of God’s Word with the whole congregation. I believe they would be encouraged and built up in the Word just like the hearing. I suggested this to our deaf ministry after a friend, who is a deaf interpretor, visited our church and was deeply concerned with the teaching in our deaf ministry. The response from the deaf was very intense. They cried and were angry at the mere suggestion that the deaf could learn the Bible in a hearing environment. They insisted that it was impossible. I personally believe that they can, at least I know of churches where the deaf are learning in a hearing environment, but the argument I receive is “You’re hearing so you just don’t understand.” I guess what I was looking for was input from those who are deaf either affirming the perspective of our deaf that they cannot learn in a hearing envoronment or my assumption that they can. I’m not looking for ammunition. I just want to understand. I’m concerned for our deaf and their familes. This effects not only the deaf but their hearing husbands, wives, and children who all leave the service before the message. The issue is not the skill of interpretors. They are professionals and do an excellent job. I inherited this situation so I have not pressed for change. I’ve planted the seed, and for now will wait. I hope I’ve said things in an understanding way.
9. Tom
March 24, 2009
10:58 AM
Tim:
I too was at Ligonier and sat directly to the right of the section reserved for the deaf. I too often watched their joyful praise and was moved to tears. How wonderful will be the day when all of us will sing before the throne of grace and enjoy the sound of praise to the Lamb that was slain.
10. Lori
March 24, 2009
11:00 AM
Hi, Greg,
Thanks for explaining. I apologize for jumping to conclusions without knowing the whole story. I hate seeing the deaf misrepresented, as if a short attention span and inability to understand in-depth teaching is a set package with deafness.
Briefly, my husband and I have been married for almost 31 years. He grew up at a residential school for deaf children (where he now works as a residential counsellor) and his first language is ASL. We’ve been members of hearing churches with no deaf ministries where I (and our sons when they were old enough) interpreted for him, hearing churches with deaf ministries and excellent interpreters, and a church for the deaf. (We aren’t church hoppers but have moved a lot.) We also spent eight years serving at a mission school for deaf children in Puerto Rico.
My husband disagrees with the premise and says, “Many deaf have a limited vocabulary. Maybe the interpreter is not changing big words to ones understandable for the vocabulary level of the deaf. Maybe the deaf need additional teaching on some of the ideas. Maybe the group is putting Deaf culture above Christianity.”
He personally chooses not to go to the local deaf church because of several issues, including the consistent offering of milk rather than meat. He is not highly educated but has learned to appreciate in-depth teaching from his many years in hearing churches, although his initial concern was that my needs and the needs of our hearing sons were being met.
I agree with my husband that this situation may be (must be?) more complicated than what you are being told and requires sensitive investigation to understand the whole picture. While there is a lot to be said for the deaf having some control over their teaching in a deaf culture environment (I assume from what you say that they meet for their own preaching after leaving the hearing service)—and Deaf culture is a very big deal, especially given the treatment of the deaf in the past—if that teaching is a matter of concern, either because of wrong doctrine or shallowness, it needs to be dealt with. Just like hearing people, deaf people cannot grow if they are not fed, and they need a healthy and wholesome diet to grow strong.
Blessings to you,
Lori
11. Lori
March 24, 2009
11:38 AM
P.S. My husband and I also agree that the angry, emotional responses to you are not an indication of spiritual health or maturity. However, that is for your church leaders to judge, not us.
12. Greg Gifford
March 24, 2009
3:06 PM
Hi Lori:
Thanks. You have been a help. I appreciate your understanding. I may be wrong, but I tend to think that a number of the deaf in our church have become comfortable and simply don’t want to move out of their comfort zone. I can understand this to a degree. If I were asked to consider learning in a deaf environment, I might balk at the idea, thinking, “I’m not wired for learning in a deaf environment.” I can see value in looking into what is being studied in our deaf ministry. Perhaps I can come along side and help move things to the next level. I know that there is no “preaching” of God’s Word in the deaf ministry. I’ve been told that what they do is more of a discussion connected to the stories of the Bible. I’m told that this is the kind of interactive learning that best fits the deaf. Again, my feelings are that the deaf in our church need more and are capable of reaching for more. Thanks again. And blessing to you too.
13. Stephen Newell
March 24, 2009
4:47 PM
Greg G.,
As a Deaf pastor I can tell you without a single bit of hesitation that Deaf learn best when they are taught by other Deaf. AND I completely and unequivocally reject that there is no preaching of God’s Word in a Deaf ministry. It’s obvious to me from your comments you have no idea what takes place in a Deaf-led church. In many Deaf-led churches the preaching of the Word is central to the worship experience, and discussion comes after.
Much of what you say betrays ignorance of Deaf culture and how Deaf people learn. While yes, Deaf people are primarily “visual” learners, many Deaf are more than capable of doing Ph.D. - level work across many disciplines, theology being one of many.
You say, I believe that the deaf ought to sit under the preaching of God’s Word with the whole congregation. I believe they would be encouraged and built up in the Word just like the hearing.
Therein lies a major problem with your assumptions. We are not “just like the hearing.” Much of the hearing preaching I grew up with would find little relevance in a Deaf context. Instead, confusion and frustration at the speaker’s inability to understand us would be prevalent. Much if not all of the hearing methodologies are utter failures in a Deaf context. I would love it if the preaching of someone such as Albert Mohler, Russell Moore, or John MacArthur were readily accessible to Deaf culture, but more often than not these guys speak to a hearing view of faith that is very distinct and often unconnected to a Deaf believer. Deaf pastors like me who learn from such people often have to work hard to contextualize them to fit a Deaf perspective, and it is not always successful. You cannot put the wine of hearing ministry in the wineskin of Deaf ministry. It simply will not work.
Attempting to force Deaf ministries to follow hearing paradigms is not only wrong but more likely than not will cause great friction in the church and Deaf community. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard a Deaf pastor report that their people are looking elsewhere because the hearing are trying to take control of their ministry.
In once such situation (which is becoming more common), the Deaf ministry was forced to meet with the hearing congregation and the Deaf pastor on staff was forced to serve as a greeter instead of ministering to his people. That Deaf ministry had been meeting as its own congregation under the hearing church for decades. In another, a Deaf ministry that had been under a hearing church for nearly 100 years is now considering leaving its home due to the hearing staff increasingly trying to take control of the ministry. Instead of cooperation and mutual edification, the Deaf in many churches are being forced to follow the hearing. And this is sad when one considers that in many places Deaf ministries would struggle to survive without the support of a hearing church to provide a place to meet or even to provide a salary for the Deaf minister.
The hearing denominations are woefully out of touch with Deaf ministry and those involved in it. For example, when our seminaries refuse to provide interested Deaf students with interpreters in direct violation of the law (which has personally happened to me); or when seminary presidents say there is no need for programs/professors specifically for the Deaf and want those students absorbed into the regular curriculum with hearing professors who do not understand the unique needs of Deaf people (which personally happened to my senior pastor); or when churches eliminate staff positions for Deaf ministers - many of which are already struggling to make ends meet as bivocational pastors - in favor of interpreted ministries, spreading the Gospel to the Deaf has ceased to be the main thing.
I strongly encourage you to broaden your horizons regarding Deaf ministry. Attend the Southern Baptist Conference of the Deaf this summer in Ridgecrest, NC. Attend your state’s Baptist Conference of the Deaf. Find and network with local and state Deaf pastors. Ask them to teach you about Deaf ministry and churches. In fact, I will be attending this year’s Southern Baptist Convention for this very reason — the hearing need to know that we are here, we have a great need, and it is being ignored. I guarantee you will be praising God for His mighty work in the Deaf community!
14. Stephen Newell
March 24, 2009
4:54 PM
Tim,
By the way, in reference to your last paragraph, we are more inclined to wonder if the hearing will become deaf. God is Deaf and speaks ASL, you know. ;-)
15. Greg Gifford
March 24, 2009
7:02 PM
Hi Stephen:
I’ve appreciated this opportunity to broaden my horizons on these matters. I’ve been receiving both here and elsewhere two points of view. Some who encourage learning together and others who encourage learning apart. the learning in our church has been apart, yet we come together at other times such as fellowship events and the first part of worship. We don’t see ourselves as two churches, but one. I can see, from my hearing perspective, the value of the whole church staying together for worship. This would still allow for separate times of learning during Sunday School, Sunday evening, and Wednesday. Of course, if the deaf found that sitting in our worship service for the message was a frustration, that wouldn’t be good either. I’m not upset or unhappy with the way things are. I’m simply one who’s always asking the question in every area of the church’s ministry, “What can we do better?” I love the deaf in our church and value relationships with them. We recently brought one of the members of the deaf ministry onto our church leadership team. This had not been done in the past. This I beleive was a good step. I hope I’m learning something here.
16. Pastor Jeremiah Ziehr
March 24, 2009
7:34 PM
Steve, thank you for an excellant thought. I want to emphasis this that Deaf individuals benefit the most from the Deaf led worship service and the preaching/teaching led by the Deaf. As Deaf myself, I raised in a hearing church and I have a lot of experiences that led me to believe that Deaf church is the best choice. Greg is one of most hearing pastors that feel the same and it is based on their satisfication to ‘inclusive’ the Deaf people into the whole hearing in the worship. It is about the hearing’s satiisfication rather than to see how benefitical that Deaf people would grow spiritually in the Deaf church. There are a long history of oppresive that the hearing people had with the Deaf people. We have enough and it’s time for us to plant more Deaf churches.
I do object to the idea of interpreting service for the Deaf is because of lack of church discipline (due to communication barriers) and often, pastors overlook the Deaf group and leave them into the corner.
There are so much I want to say but I think it is enough for now.
Please do understand, the interpreters that provide their service at the conference doesn’t mean it would make good choice in the hearing church. As Steve explained, these well known pastors such as John MacAurthur, R.C.Sproul, etc, they don’t have enough knowledge in how to relate with the Deaf. R.C. Sproul were the one who encourage the Deaf to establish the conference on their own. We are blessed to celebrate 15 years anniversary of our ministry (Deaf Reformed Ministries) can be looked at www.deafreformed.org.
There are numerous Deaf churches that are led by the Deaf Pastors/Deaf deacons etc…
Pastor Jeremiah
17. Lori
March 24, 2009
8:24 PM
Dear Stephen and Pastor Jeremiah,
I respect you two gentlemen, your experience and your opinions. I also respect my Deaf husband’s experience and opinion. I have a few questions:
1. What if the only deaf preaching available is not biblical or is always shallow?
2. What is more important, that Deaf be taught by Deaf or that Deaf be taught God’s Word?
3. Who should the leaders of deaf ministries be accountable to?
Greg has said that there is no preaching of God’s Word in his own church. He was not talking about every Deaf ministry. He was talking about his own church only.
Greg does not want to take over the Deaf church. But if he is in charge of the whole church and he finds out that the Deaf are being taught wrong things, what should he do?
I think he’s responsible to God to make sure that the Deaf are being taught correctly from God’s Word. What do you think?
18. Greg Gifford
March 25, 2009
10:32 AM
Hello All:
I have learned much through our conversations. When I was growing up there was a mentally hanidcapped boy in our local church who was about my age. We became friends and over time learned how to enter into one another’s world. Please don’t misunderstand what I’m trying to say. I’m not in any way trying to equate the deaf with the mentally handicapped. Here’s the point. I’ve come to realize that I need to better learn how to enter into the world of the deaf. I want to pursue deeper relational connectedness with the deaf in our church. This is not a new desire, but its been rekindled. I visited with the leader of our deaf ministry last night. We have a good relationship. He is a devoted and humble man of God. He is going to be giving me some books to help me better grasp deaf culture. And together we explored ways for the hearing and deaf in our church to better enter into one another’s world. There’s always been a bridge of relationships and connectedness between us, but we are not going to take the bridge for granted. We are going to be giving it more attention. As to the teaching of God’s Word, we’ll be exploring this together too. There’s more good things to tell, but I’m sure that you’ve got the picture. So thanks to all. It’s been a blessing to explore and learn together.
19. Lori
March 25, 2009
1:22 PM
Greg, that is wonderful news. I appreciate your humble spirit, devotion to God and His Word and the people He’s entrusted you with, and respect for the deaf and their culture. I’m sure that God is doing something wonderful in your church!
20. Stephen Newell
March 25, 2009
5:23 PM
Lori,
Thanks for your questions!
1. What if the only deaf preaching available is not biblical or is always shallow?
This is just my fallen view of it: I would suggest that a person in this situation follow Matthew 18 with the pastor, and follow it to its conclusion. If, at the end of the process, the pastor refuses to change and the church supports him, such a person may have no recourse but to leave, because one would only be pierced to the heart by the trampling of the Gospel.
I am not a believer in leaving a church for any reason unless there are serious issues such as this one. One could choose to stay, working and praying for faithfulness to be brought in the church. I like this idea much better than leaving, but if one chooses to leave there is no shame in availing oneself of alternatives, including interpreted ministry.
2. What is more important, that Deaf be taught by Deaf or that Deaf be taught God’s Word?
My answer to your first question points at this. The Gospel is central, no exceptions. How that Gospel is communicated is a different matter. From 13 years of being around Deaf ministries, including 10 years active in Deaf ministry, I’m convinced that Deaf ministers do this better than interpreted ministries. I’m convinced it is the ideal. But I’m like Paul in this — they’re preaching the Gospel, therefore we’re on the same team. In fact, until a couple of years ago one of our church’s closest relationships was with an interpreted ministry across town; they now have a Deaf minister on staff with their own worship and Bible classes. Short answer, I will endorse a faithful, Gospel-centered Deaf-led ministry over and above any interpreted ministry any day of the week. But in connection with your first question, if there’s no acceptable Deaf-led ministries, being personally faithful ought not exclude the alternative.
3. Who should the leaders of deaf ministries be accountable to?
That depends on the structure of the ministry. There are two common ways this is set up: as a Deaf church and as a ministry under a hearing church. I’ve been in both environments in my brief time in ministry.
If it is a Deaf church, obviously the leaders are accountable first to God and His Word and second to the congregation. That’s what makes Matthew 18 so very important. Without that, we as members would have no recourse. As an associate pastor, I strive for faithfulness to Scripture above all. Next I am accountable to our senior pastor, since I serve under his leadership. Last I am accountable to our congregation through our church council specifically and individual members generally.
If it is a ministry under a hearing church, it is similar to my role as an associate pastor. Again the leaders are first accountable to God and His Word. Next they are accountable to the church through those staff members responsible for them. Last they are accountable to their people.
Please understand, what I have spoken of is a trend becoming more and more widespread that expects Deaf ministries in hearing churches to follow the lead of the hearing congregations. When they resist, they are in many cases forced to comply, which results in the Deaf and/or their ministry leaving. Having the Deaf join hearing worship is usually the first step towards such practice. It waves a red flag in my mind and in that of other Deaf ministers.
I would encourage Greg (and again, this is just my perspective) to have as a goal the raising up of a man within his Deaf people to take responsibility for them and their discipleship. Take up his training and disciple him towards ministry. I see interpreted ministry as a stepping stone towards Deaf-led ministry. It should not be the end result, but a rung on the ladder. That’s how our church came to be and from what I have learned it is how many Deaf-led churches began as well.
Deaf-led ministry does not necessarily mean independent Deaf-led churches such as ours, but can and will mean ministry as part of a larger church. In fact, I am coming to suspect that independent Deaf-led churches may soon disappear entirely. Deaf-led ministries under the umbrella of hearing churches may out of necessity become the future of Deaf ministry. That makes it important that hearing churches understand the boundaries between these ministries and respect them.
21. Greg Gifford
March 25, 2009
10:31 PM
Hello:
Ive learned that deaf ministry is a such a critical ministry, yet often overlooked. Here’s some perspective. We have about 40 people presently in our deaf ministry, yet within an hour driving distance of our church there are around 500 deaf people. This was recently shared with me by our deaf ministry leader. These are people who need to hear about Christ in their own language. There’s much opportunity for the cause of Christ. We also have opprtunities in that a local college sends their students taking sign language to our church to experience deaf culture. There’s a good work to be done in deaf ministries. So keep up the good work.
22. Pastor Jeremiah Ziehr
March 26, 2009
2:59 AM
Lori,
It is always my pleasure to continue to carry out to reach Deaf/HH for Christ. Here is my answer.
1. What if the only deaf preaching available is not biblical or is always shallow?
Depend on to which Deaf preaching is located. For example, my church is an independent Reformed Baptist and we do have the accountability by have our ‘sister’ church to work together. I have selected two individuals to monitor my sermons to be sure I am preaching properly with the Biblical sound. Another thing, there are Deaf church where they do have Pastor/Elders so when the Pastor is preaching, the elders are there to ‘observe’ and in case if Pastor is being error then the elders will seek to resolve with the Pastor to be sure there is no misunderstandings. Elders could ‘rebuke’ the Pastor when Pastor is wrong. It requires a humility and honest relationship with the church to protect the flocks against authoritarian or any spiritual abuse. Unfortunately, our church is small and we haven’t installed elders through I have plead for that. However we have average of 15 in attendance and there is two people in our church who support me by become my “mirrors”. I also get my sermon videotape to allow me to review my sermon and will always to make clarification when I find something wrong. Our church is very kind enough to understand that I am a human and I am fallible. I must emphasis this, we cannot preach unless we have a right relationship with Lord through a lot of praying and mediating. There are Deaf church that are under the denomination and there are many different ways of handle that. From to my knowledge, there are many Independent Fundamental Baptist Deaf pastors often end themselves in ‘authoritarian” and ‘dictator’ then will do everything to get their own way in the church. Unfortunately, there is out of my control due to distant group. So, I would say, there will always a bad pastor/good pastor out in the harvest. God knew what’s in their heart.
2. What is more important, that Deaf be taught by Deaf or that Deaf be taught God’s Word?
I agreed with Steve. The Gospel is central with out any compromise or any expectations. But as what Steve asked about HOW the Gospel is communicated is the main issue. In my total of 20 years of involvement in the Deaf ministries along with the Pastoral ministry to the Deaf, these experiences led me to believe that the Deaf Minister/Deaf pastors are doing much better in carry the gospel into the Deaf community. In this same sense, the oversea missionaries would not seek to take over the native language speakers but to empower them with the training and the skill to equip themselves in carry the gospel in their native language. For example, Kenya have Deaf church and more to plant as result after one group of missionaries from Deaf Opportunity Out Reach (D.O.O.R), the missionaries trained the new convert and after length of time, they allow native Deaf person to lead the ministry and seen a dynamic growth in reach more Deaf/HH people to Christ. Same way with South Korea, there is a Deaf church with over of 1,500 in attendance and the pastor moved to be a pastor in USA. This particular church has planted several other Deaf churches in the country. So, when come to ‘interpreted ministries’ the pattern of growth often find themselves decline due to not empower the Deaf person to lead and the Deaf individuals would vapor and seek after to other church to where Deaf leadership/Deaf church are being available to nourish their spiritual needs. I object the interpreted ministries are because of several reasons, let me name few here. 1) No Spiritual overseer able to communicate with the Deaf outside of interpreter’s presence. 2). Interpreters tend to leave church without empower or transfer to the other person in lead. 3). Often, interpreters take the role to do it to just cater to their ego. 4). The atmosphere of worship in the hearing is more distract for the Deaf as you know Deaf is relying on visualize so, how can the Deaf get the whole gospel that communicate from the hearing preacher if there are so much distract. There was a research that conducted by a university that shown that deaf people missed out 90 percents through the interpretation ministry than the Deaf-direct pastor and the Deaf people benefit the most from being involved in the leadership and the fellowship of the Deaf church.
3. Who should the leaders of deaf ministries be accountable to?
When Deaf ministries are operate, there are many different ways of being accountable to. Depend on which church it belong to and how it differ etc…
Our church run under the church council and oversee the operation of the church. We also communicate with our sister church for ideas and the feedback. Our church is a congregational in the church government and the word of God is our authority so, I agreed to what Steve said.
In my past experience, the hearing church started a deaf ministry with a council where the majority of the council are hearing and then result of that our communication have broke down. The new pastor arrived and decided to terminate the Deaf ministry out of the church so we had to move to another church. This left me the negative impression.
Greg has said that there is no preaching of God’s Word in his own church. He was not talking about every Deaf ministry. He was talking about his own church only.
Greg does not want to take over the Deaf church. But if he is in charge of the whole church and he finds out that the Deaf are being taught wrong things, what should he do?
There will be some way to be sure you can take care in the Biblical way and ensure the Deaf individual who lead the Deaf ministry to be properly trained and Greg will have a lot of communicate with the Deaf individual to gain the understanding and to be sure everything go in a Biblical way. Remember, hearing person have been look at the Deaf as a pathologically and tend to coddle ‘take over’ etc. It is important that Greg and the selected individual to sit down to go through the criteria that establish agreement and make sure the individual Greg’s role as a pastor for the whole church.
I think he’s responsible to God to make sure that the Deaf are being taught correctly from God’s Word. What do you think? I understood to what you mean but Greg will need to trust God and let the Deaf to lead. My suggestion is Greg and the Deaf can set up monthly accountability meeting to communicate each other such as doctorial position and so on to be sure to know where he stands. You will be surprised after letting the person to lead you know Holy Spirit will lead the whole truth. I am not trying to say just leave him and over the eyes then think everything is fine.
I wanted to say abut to what Steve says. I do not agree his statement about his suspect that independent Deaf-led churches may soon disappear entirely. Deaf-led ministries under the umbrella of hearing churches may out of necessity become the future of Deaf ministry. That makes it important that hearing churches understand the boundaries between these ministries and respect them. There are many Deaf church that run are doing very well, for instance, Sacramento Bible Church of the Deaf in California, the deaf congregation have own building and been run more than 30 years. They should become a model to us to how we can do better in our Deaf churches. Sadly, there are many interpreters that steal deaf away from the Deaf church to just to cater their pride. We can do something to prevent from see like that.
I would like for Greg to e-mail me pravite at my address and we can talk to do some assitance.
Pastor Jeremiah Ziehr
Green River Area Deaf Fellowship
Owensboro, KY
www.gradf.org
Jeremiah.Ziehr@gmail.com
23. Chuck Snyder
March 26, 2009
10:16 AM
Tim,
I can appreciate what you were trying to say. Because you may not feel free to worship God with more than your lips, you are moved when you see people using their bodies to worship.
However, to assume that people who are worshiping via a signed language are worshiping from the heart just because they are using their bodies is dangerous. Because ASL is a visual language, those who worship in that language will be moving their bodies whether or not their worship is coming from the heart. God looks at the heart and knows when our worship is in spirit and truth - no matter what language or style we use in our worship.
I truly wish that you had limited your blog to the encouragement this was to you and not moved into the whole area of deafness as a result of sin, healing, etc. That completely clouds the issue. You moved from your experience to trying to represent or interpret the experience of people that you do not know. Honestly, I have never known a Deaf person who, while worshiping, was anticipating “that great day where their ears will be unstopped…” I am sure that there are people who have lost their hearing who miss music greatly, but many of my Deaf friends have told me that they rarely, if ever, think about it.
Tim, I would encourage you to attend the Sovereign Grace Deaf Conference (not related to the Sovereign Grace churches). I think you would be blown away by the experience. There you would hear teaching similar to that of a Ligonier conference. The difference for you is that you would be the one hearing the messages through an interpreter, as all of the messages are presented in ASL. Check it out at http://www.deafreformed.org/conferences.php
24. Paramo
March 26, 2009
12:09 PM
Forgiveness is unconditional. We MUST forgive. God’s forgiveness is not the direct result of our forgiving others, but it is based on our realizing what forgiveness means. God forgives us solely because of His mercy. As we come to understand His mercy, we will want to be like Him. Having received forgiveness, we will pass it on to others. Those who are unwilling to forgive have not become one with Christ. (Matthew 6:14-15, 18:35; Mark 11:25; Ephesians 4: 31-32) A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teaching. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear, 2 Timothy 4:3.
25. Lori
March 26, 2009
12:31 PM
Dear Stephen and Pastor Jeremiah,
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions. You are both gracious, and your answers are an encouragement to us. You are no doubt blessings to those you lead. Thank you again!
26. Billy Krahl
March 26, 2009
12:36 PM
Tim,
Thanks for the nice blog. I agree with Chuck Snyder on this sentiment…that I, a deaf person, while WORSHIPPING, have never anticipated “that great day where MY ears will be unstopped…”
It is not about Me, Me, Me. It is about Jesus Christ. What is our viewpoint on this? I echo what Matthew Henry commented on Isaiah 35:5-6, “By the word and Spirit of Christ, the spiritually blind were enlightened; and those deaf to the calls of God were made to hear them readily. Those unable to do any thing good, by Divine grace were made active therein. Those that knew not how to speak of God or to God, had their lips opened to show forth his praise. When the Holy Ghost came upon the Gentiles that heard the word, then were the fountains of life opened.”
We, the deaf, that is, those of us who are truly regenerated by the mighty power of His Word, had our ears being made spiritually “hearing”. And for that, we praise to God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
27. michael
March 26, 2009
2:34 PM
I have a friend who works with me. He is deaf. He is a rocket scientist. No, i’m not kidding. He’s also a believer. I’m having a hard time understanding why, with a good interpreter, he couldn’t understand what was being preached at my church. Why couldn’t he come and worship with us. Not that he has to, but why couldn’t he. What makes it so much better to be at a deaf church. I thought the Gospel was preached to believers and unbelievers; not deaf, and hearing.
What am I missing.
28. Stephen Newell
March 26, 2009
3:03 PM
Michael,
Basically, you are completely missing the “all things to all men” part. It is very, very necessary with Deaf people. None of us are saying that we Deaf cannot be fed in a hearing context; what we are saying is that it is not the best and most effective way.
What many people miss in discussions like these is that very thing, the methodology that allows the Gospel to be preached to the most people for the greatest benefit. As I and Jeremiah have stated, that is through a Deaf minister rather than an interpreter.
This is not a knock on interpreters by any means — we love Chuck and Nancy and others without whom we’d be left in the dark! Through them the Gospel is faithfully preached. What we’re saying is that they are limited in ways a Deaf person is not. That’s not a point about their skill, desire, calling, etc.; it’s a point about the reality of working with Deaf people.
29. Billy Krahl
March 26, 2009
3:54 PM
I also hate seeing the deaf misrepresented, as if the lack of in-depth teaching in the deaf-led church is a set package with deafness. There are, for sure, many that offer milk rather than meat. That does not mean that there are no in-depth teaching of the Word of God taught by the deaf ministers/pastors. As Chuck Snyder said, check out Sovereign Grace Deaf Conference.
With that said, I agree that the deaf could learn the Bible teaching in a hearing environment if they have competent interpreters. But the deaf would not be maturing into leadership roles within the context of hearing churches. In a hearing church setting, more often than not, the deaf people can only be objects of someone else’s ministry.
Another issue: the discipline. Too often, the discipline is not carried out for a deaf person in a hearing church, for fear of being discriminating against deafness or for fear of not knowing their culture, etc.
There are certain to be more issues but the point is, as Stephen Newell eloquently said, “that very thing, the methodology that allows the Gospel to be preached to the most people for the greatest benefit.”
30. michael
March 26, 2009
6:05 PM
Stephen -
“None of us are saying that we Deaf cannot be fed in a hearing context; what we are saying is that it is not the best and most effective way.”
Thank you. That’s what I was looking for in all of this. It’s not a good vs. bad. It’s a good vs. best.
31. Chuck Snyder
March 26, 2009
10:28 PM
Stephen,
“What we’re saying is that they are limited in ways a Deaf person is not. That’s not a point about their skill, desire, calling, etc.; it’s a point about the reality of working with Deaf people.”
I agree, but would go one step further. This isn’t just the reality of working with Deaf people. This is the reality of interpreting. [Funny thing - in most of our meal breaks, Nancy and I hung out with the Spanish interpreters because we could understand each other - they knew that we were doing the exact the same thing.] Interpreting is limited. Even when an interpreter is skilled and prepared.
I have been interpreting for 30 years. I have had the opportunity of sitting under a tremendous Deaf preacher’s preaching for 10 years; and the opportunity to discuss the Bible, theology, etc. with many Deaf ministers. I have interpreted for Sproul, MacArthur, etc. for 20 years. I get as much information as possible before interpreting one of these conferences. For example, when I interpret a message by John Piper, I have a complete transcript to study and prepare for interpreting. I use all of my knowledge and language proficiency. I work with a teammate who helps me be able to stay far enough behind the speaker to actually be able to interpret into ASL. With all of that, I am sometimes able to do a decent job interpreting. But here is my point - even when I do a good job, I realize that if I were PREACHING this message to all Deaf people instead of interpreting, I would have done it differently.
It is my job as the interpreter to make the linguistic and cultural adjustments that allow Deaf people to benefit from the teaching of non-Deaf preachers, and to allow non-Deaf people to benefit from the teaching of Deaf preachers. But even when this works best, I am aware that it is still not as good as a message that does NOT go through an interpreter.
One more point - It is good to hear messages that come from someone of a different culture. It challenges us to see where we have let our own culture effect our understanding of the Bible and of God. That is why we interpret so many conferences - because Deaf people want input from these people, and there are hearing people who want input from Deaf teachers. However, conferences are different from church worship. It is rough to go through an interpreter every Sunday, especially if they are limited in their skill, or if they do not prepare.
32. Chuck Snyder
March 26, 2009
10:31 PM
Deaf Reformed Ministries puts on mini-conferences all over the country. One church has them put on a conference every year. Many non-Deaf people attend. When asked why he was coming to this Deaf conference, one hearing man said, “We don’t get this deep of teaching anywhere else.”
33. Kyle Duarte
March 27, 2009
5:16 AM
Hello all, and thanks especially to Stephen and Chuck for their experienced perspectives on the issue.
There have been hints toward a linguistic perspective in the comments, but as a linguist who studies signed languages, I feel this perspective should be stated clearly for the purposes of this discussion and for application.
Regarding linguistics, certainly the history of any signed language has roots in the fact that its users cannot access the sounds of spoken languages, and thus signed language is easily related with the “condition” of “deafness.” However, experience and research show that the Deaf community flourishes most when ASL is used in education and other realms of daily life. Of course, Deaf people are often bilingual: as you have read, deaf people in America are use English as a second(ary) language (for writing and reading), and analogs are prevalent in other countries.
Further, linguists understand culture as it is transmitted through language. SIL/Wycliffe has a long history of believing that Christians need to be taught the Word in their “heart language” (English for many hearing Americans, ASL for Deaf Americans), as cultural nuances and linguistic pride are found only in this setting. Have you taken a trip to Europe/Asia/South America before and found yourself struggling with cultural and linguistic differences and, upon landing back in the US, breathed a big sigh of relief to be back home speaking your own language again? That’s what the heart language feels like.
So if a sermon is preached in English and interpreted into ASL, there’s going to be a lack of that familiarity even given the best of interpreters. As one commenter mentioned, this kind of teaching can be useful to an extent, as missionaries can remind us that different perspectives exist in the world, but is not beneficial for weekly teaching. If we are heading toward Deaf Christian communities becoming ministries of larger hearing churches as Stephen predicts, I agree that they remain Deaf-led/-taught and suggest that they be considered a multi-lingual arm of the church rather than a disability ministry or turned into an interpreting ministry. My perspective is that for an other-lingual ministry to feed its flock it needs to produce worship in the native (i.e., neither translated nor interpreted) language of its congregants.
A final note: as a former head of an (ASL-English) interpreting ministry I prayed that the Lord would make my weekly job obsolete by raising up Deaf leaders to tend the flock; God has since moved me to France. Here, I find that the same linguistic perspective holds in the pursuit of making the gospel take hold of French people’s lives.
34. Jennifer
March 27, 2009
9:46 AM
As a mother of a completely blind child, I found this article and the comments very thought provoking. We are at the relative beginning of our process of raising our son (he is 4) and are finding it hard to find ministries that are relavent to him. There are classes with bible stories taught with pictures and followed up with visual crafts to supplement understanding. Many times I believe he goes into his class and is babysat. Don’t get me wrong. He is loved and cared for in a big way, but any real teaching comes from us, his parents. This concerns me for his future. He is also developmentally delayed, so his understanding of things is still extremely basic, but I wonder as he gets older, how we might find ways to bridge the gap.
Blind and deaf are very different, but they both raise a lot of the same questions in a corporate worship atmosphere. The question should be, “How do we minister to all people in a way that is consistent with scripture and is meeting their physical/spiritual needs?” I do not have the answer, but I have found this discussion very interesting. When certain disabilities are rare, they pose the problem of being such a minority that they aren’t addressed. I love that Greg is sitting down and trying to really listen to the needs of the deaf community in his church. That is perhaps the very first step in bridging the gap. Compassion and respect are key.
I also agree with a few people who commented about the deaf worshipping with their whole bodies as being straight from the heart. It is true that individuals with different abilities can be romanticized a bit and can be misunderstood. My son can get really into the music with his whole body and sing along with reckless abandon, but he is not necessarily worshipping. He can very well just really be intrigued by the guitar or the beat. It’s the exact same as someone who has an increadible singing voice. Just because they shine while worshipping doesn’t mean that they are worshipping more whole heartedly than the silent guy standing next to them in the aisle.
I don’t have any answers, just observations. I just applaud and encourage anyone who asks questions directly to the people that would be affected. It’s the only way to get helpful, constructive ideas.
35. Lisa Nunley
March 30, 2009
2:28 PM
Very interesting post and comments. Our family signs. Of my 6 children, one has hearing loss. One of my dear friends has 3 deaf children and another friend is a 35+ year interpreter. Not only were we taught sign language and deaf culture well from these friends, but we find ourselves signing to each other in noisy restaurants, across rooms, sometimes in church. Sometimes I find myself signing songs at home and non-boisterously in church… not at all to draw attention, but because it is a beautiful language that I can ‘sing’ when my voice fails me due to tears, etc. (It is those rich hymns full of encouragement and conviction that really get me)
36. Bo Lotinsky
April 3, 2009
6:21 PM
Hello Tim,
I wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed this. It brought me to tears as I pondered how these brothers and sisters effected you. I can fully understand. My parents were deaf. In the deaf community I’m referred to as a CODA (Child Of a Deaf Adult). What I always enjoyed about my parent’s friends were how, whether good or bad, you knew exactly how they felt. Emotions were rarely hidden. Though it’s wise to keep a check on our emotions, I always appreciated the genuineness of their communication and like you, I found a special joy in watching them worship their God. And now, in the providence of God, I am working for a deaf-owned company that provides video relay services.
You should learn ASL and join them sometime.
37. James H
April 5, 2009
1:52 AM
Amen and amen!
The idea that the deaf show what’s in our hearts because they cannot express it any other way reminds me of my charismatic brethren: they simply can’t seem to help themselves. I always feel like a statue, but in my heart, I dance.
Having friends with disabilities, with terminal illness, friends in wheelchairs…I cannot wait to see them praise God with their now broken bodies.
I can only imagine what that day will be like, only imagine what the refulgent majesty looks like in it’s unveiled glory.
I remember that line from Hebrews 12:2, “looking unto Jesus, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross…” What did Jesus see that He endured my hell?
http://brazenhusseys.blogspot.com/