What follows are three quotes from Leonard Sax’s book Boys Adrift. I am going to post a full review of the book soon, but for now suffice it to say that if you have boys or you are a boy (or a young man), you need to read this book!
“Forty years ago, even thirty years ago, there was no shame in a young man choosing a career in the trades. Beginning in the early 1980s-and particularly after publication of the Nation at Risk report in 1983-a consensus grew in the United States that every young person should go to college, regardless. “Vocational education” lost whatever prestige it had, and came to be viewed in some quarters very nearly as a dumping ground for the mildly retarded.”
“Traditionally, one of the factors driving Western society has been the fact that women prefer successful, affluent men over men who are less successful. Because men understood that women would be reluctant to marry men who couldn’t comfortably support a wife and children, men were motivated to be successful. That simple mechanism has suffered a double whammy in the past forty years. First, sex has been divorced from marriage. Second-and here’s what’s really disturbing to those of us in the over-thirty crowd-sexual satisfaction has been divorced from women altogether.”
“Thirty years ago, if a boy cursed his parents and spit at his teacher, the neighbors might say that the boy was a disobedient brat who needed a good spanking. Today, the same behavior from a similar boy might well prompt a trip to the pediatrician or the child psychiatrist. And the doctor is likely to ‘diagnose’ the boy with Conduct Disorder (DSM-IV 312.82) or Oppositional-Defiant Disorder (DSM-IV 313.81). The main criterion for both these ‘disorders’ is disobedient and disrespectful behavior that persists despite parental efforts.’ Is there really much of a difference between a neighbor saying ‘That boy is a disobedient brat,’ and a doctor saying ‘That boy has oppositional-defiant disorder’? I think there is. If another parent whom you trust and respect suggests that your son is a disobedient brat who needs stricter discipline, you just might consider adopting a tougher parenting.”
Comments (18) »
1. ChrisB
June 2, 2008
4:12 PM
I think someone’s called it education inflation — the notion that every conceivable job needs a college degree. I know fields that once required the equivalent of an AS where people are being pushed to graduate degrees.
All that and your plumber is still probably one of the best paid people you know.
2. Tim Challies
June 2, 2008
4:14 PM
All that and your plumber is still probably one of the best paid people you know.
Exactly so. And they work better hours, too.
3. Jacob
June 2, 2008
4:50 PM
“If another parent whom you trust and respect suggests that your son is a disobedient brat who needs stricter discipline, you just might consider adopting a tougher parenting.”
But it’s easier to to claim it is a “disorder” rather than admit to defective parenting skills. No one likes being judged. We have all-too-fragile egos these days.
Regarding a college education, my experience earning a four-year degree showed me that it is not for everyone. In my time as a camp counselor working with 17 and 18 year old guys, I tried to be very honest about that with them. If they would rather work on a dairy farm than go to college, good for them. We probably need more dairy farmers than we need another psychology degree out there.
4. Jan Dillaha
June 2, 2008
5:04 PM
These are the two issues that concern me most regarding the expectation that everyone ought to go to college.
First, many of these students get through college by borrowing the money. These decisions are not made the way that you would make other investment decisions. There is still a popular expectation that if you have a degree you are guaranteed a career that will pay for the loan. For students who don’t belong in college, there is a tendency to wander around hoping to find the right fit. This is an expensive adventure.
Second, some students have skills sets that academia just doesn’t appreciate. For those students, college can be very discouraging. I have seen young people who question their ability to function as adults, not because they are not bright, but simply because they don’t learn via the college system.
I often think about what we might be losing as a community by forcing otherwise competent young people into colleges
The discipline issue is a whole other matter.
5. Elizabeth
June 2, 2008
6:06 PM
Much to the chagrin of my mother, I’m questioning the value of my college education (and I’m just a year out of school)—as much as I enjoy my job, I am not using my degree and my studies in no way relate to my work. A lot of it has to do with a sudden change in my college major that I didn’t plan or desire, but that’s another tale…
Maybe I’ll change as I get older, but I do question the wisdom (or lackthereof) when parents practically force their kids into four year schools right away. College in no way means a person is educated, just like an incredibly smart person may never have set foot in a college classroom.
6. Ally
June 2, 2008
6:40 PM
I work with inner-city children, and the other day I was talking to a 7th grader about how disrespectful she had been to another staff member. She explained that her doctor had said she had anger management problems—as if it that explained away the issue. She said her mother had been diagnosed as well. This type of labeling is creating an excuse for people to misbehave and mistreat others, and it’s a disservice to every one.
7. Catherine
June 2, 2008
6:47 PM
Ha ha. Elizabeth, you made me giggle. I didn’t realize that you knew me!
I have spent very little time in an institute of higher learning. I received an AA in Accounting from a very reputable business college (trade school). I started out in a university, couldn’t afford it and needed to be able to support myself. Do I think that makes me an idiot? No. Did I take on huge loans? No.
God takes, even our own children, down different paths and uses them in different ways. I have two that are in college now, still living at home to save some money. They both have been led by the Lord to go into public service in different areas. One in a teaching position (she will have to have college to do that) and the other in law enforcement of some sort (yet to be determined). If either one of them had shown a bit of enthusiasm to something other than what they have been led by the Lord to do, my husband and I would have encouraged them in that direction.
We have one left to think on and pray for, going to be entering high school this year. Who knows what the Lord will have for him, but we will be open to seeing that prompting from the Holy Spirit, to see which way he should go.
No matter which one it is, respect is still the top priority in our home and we wouldn’t hesitate to tell one of them to find a new place to live if it wasn’t up to par. Do you think they might know that?
I’m tired of bad parenting and the labels that go with the equally rotten kids they possess. Unfortunately, I don’t see an end to it in the near future.
8. Mandi
June 2, 2008
8:15 PM
As the mom of soon-to-be 5 boys (one of whom is bi-polar) I feel compelled to educate here. Our son has Type I Pediatric Bi-polar, ADHD, and meets many of the criteria for ODD. I belong to a support group of other parents and there is nothing more disheartening to have another person tell you that you just need to be a tougher parent. Most of you who are commenting have no idea what it is like to raise one of these children. Are some children misdiagnosed? YES! Are some children simply disobedient because of poor parenting? I’m sure this is the case. But let us not assume that every child who is diagnosed as having one of these disorders is simply the product of bad parenting. We have 3 other boys who are quite well behaved. There have been more than a handful of Christian friends who suggest tougher discipline with no idea of what we have been thru as parents and that we have also tried just about every discipline method known. I will withhold futher comments until the full review is posted. Please educate yourself before you speak of things you may not have experienced. There are many hurting families who are doing their very best to do the right things for their child…..these types of discussions only further their frustration and pain. Check out bipolarchild. com or bpkids.org for more information.
9. David
June 2, 2008
8:56 PM
I don’t think anyone is talking about children with authentic medical problems.
Unfortunately, you don’t need to look far to see poor child-rearing excused by the latest medical fad. I understand that as the genuine parent of a challenged kid, it sucks to be labelled as ‘just needing to try harder’ but I don’t beleive that anyone here is not qualified to speak on the fact that we’re using acronyms and excuses in place of sin and responsibility in many, many cases. I HAVE experienced both mental illness in my family situation and bratty kids indulged by parents of both genders who shrug and grin their way through their child’s atrocious behaviour with an ADD/ADDHD/OCD explanation as if to say they have no need to even try since their kid obviously has a ‘syndrome’.
Again, your point is valid that there are those who genuinely face challenges. Autism is real, for example, and I don’t think anyone here is suggesting otherwise. I don’t think that this fact, however, means we must all be silent until we have personally interacted with an ill child.
10. Susanna Rose
June 2, 2008
11:33 PM
Mandi,
I felt I had to respond to your comment and spread a little encouragement your way! First off, good for you for being the parent of (soon to be) 5 boys!:) I have just one child so far (soon to be 2…a little girl this time;) and he is all boy and always active and I can not imagine raising 5 all in a row!
I hope you will not get disheartened by this post. I know where the author is getting at but I also can (at least slightly) imagine where you are coming from too. I used to work with autistic children and know how frustrating it is for parents who have children with genuine special needs/learning issues and how they are often pushed to the max emotionally, physically, etc by these children, especially if they are boys. But yet they love them so much they want to do everything they can to help them achieve all they can. One mom I worked with had her 10 year old daughter wear shirts outside all the time that said she was autistic boldly printed on the front since she constantly had to be worried about what her daughter might do in public(go in other people’s lawns, take things from their lawns, behave at a level far below her age, etc) and knew people would judge harshly if they did not know of the disability. I see already that people do judge quickly of parents and I’m sure that is only multiplied 10 fold when you are the mother of a child with genuine special needs.
Anyways, please take heart and know that hopefully most people would whole-heartedly sympothize with where you and others in your shoes are coming from!:)
11. Chris
June 3, 2008
1:03 AM
I look forward to your review. This kind of information and summary is a great help to pastors who are trying to stay abreast of a wide range of reading. I have two boys and probably should have at least scanned this book already.
Thanks.
12. Larry
June 3, 2008
8:55 AM
“I don’t think anyone is talking about children with authentic medical problems.”
I think that’s an important point. However, many, if not most, of these newly ‘discovered’ (created?) disorders are not authentic medical problems. A true medical problem is organic, in other words, there’s something wrong with the person’s body that is causing the problem. Something that is non-organic is not a disease or a disorder.
We need to be careful not to lump all children into one bucket of course but we also don’t need to be shy about insisting that behavioral issues with non-organic causes are not diseases and should not be treated as such.
13. Hayden
June 3, 2008
9:53 AM
A great resource for talking about some of these ‘disorders’ is “The Christian Counselor’s Medical Desk Reference” by Dr. Robert Smith.
Mandi,
I do not think anyone was making simplistic arguments about EVERY child. Make sure that you are not overly sensitive on these issues. As a pastor I have seen some cases where there was a biological cause to a disorder but there were other times where that was an excuse. No one was accusing you or every parent, but you must realize that we do have an epidemic of over medicating. (Just look at the latest statistics on who received ADD/ADHD meds and see the huge spike among young men )
14. Tim
June 3, 2008
10:48 AM
“sexual satisfaction has been divorced from women altogether”
What does that mean?
15. Catherine
June 3, 2008
11:18 AM
I took “sexual satisfaction has been divorced from women altogether” to mean that men are receiving sexual satisfaction from men instead of women. Did I misunderstand it?
16. Susanna Rose
June 3, 2008
12:50 PM
I suspect he’s likely referring to is the fact that sexual pleasure has largely be relegated to men in our society and men only. As men, both married and single, delve more and more into pornography, etc as it is so easy to access, they are gaining sexual pleasure through “screen women” and robbing their wives of sexual pleasure in the process because they are not even interested in them sexually anymore. Therefore, women and sexual satisfaction have literally been divorced from one another as a result.
Tim…your thoughts?:)
17. Julie
June 4, 2008
11:26 PM
Mandi (keep the faith, sister!), and other readers…
I too have a Type 1 ADHD kiddo (one of my three boys) as well as a Deaf/HoH kid. Lots of “issues”. As a Christian parent who is bustin’ a gut to raise these boys in the wisdom of the Lord, I have faced plenty of criticism.
Especially from within the church.
YES, I agree, ADHD (and the other “Behavior” disorders) are definitely over-diagnosed. There are, unfortunately, plenty of parents out there that would rather medicate their kids than do the Hard Work of parenting, and think that getting their kids a diagnosis gives them some sort of behavioral ‘get out of jail free’ card.
Realistically, how much can I expect of this kid? (Especially first thing in the morning, before breakfast, before he gets his meds… because he has to eat before he takes his meds, or he has no appetite… you know the drill!)
And what do I do with Sunday School teachers who - the moment they get a whiff of trouble - decide to go toe to toe with him. “Oh… you struggle with waiting your turn, so you’ll automatically be LAST until you ‘get it’. ” Or the Christian principal of his new school (before we decided to homeschool) who sarcastically informed me that if we just had our act together and had some structure in our home-life (Hello, you’re talking to the Queen of Structure!) we wouldn’t be having these behavioral problems.
As God-fearing parents, we struggle with these issues. Every. Single. Day. Consequently, I have been exhausted for 12 years… okay, that may be an exaggeration, because today was NOT a “stellar day”.
I don’t want to “enable” my kid to be less than God wants for him. I don’t want to use ADHD as an excuse to allow him to be disrespectful, or disobedient. I want to hold this kid accountable for his actions. I try to train and discipline him biblically. And he is making progress. But it’s not as simple as being a tougher parent.
Respectfully,
Julie
18. Mike
June 5, 2008
2:17 PM
Such heated posts and I think everyone is saying virtually the same thing.
Yes, there are some children who have actual diseases cause defiant behavior. Yes, this behavior is still wrong, but it might need to be addressed in a little different way than another boy who is simply a brat.
Finally, yes, there are MANY children who are mis-diagnosed as having some disease, when there only problem is that they are sinful and their parents have not done an adequate job disciplining them.
It is easy to see why people are passionate about this topic, but I really do believe that basically everyone here belives the same thing, but is seeing it from slightly different perspectives.
Finally … Imagine, if you will, being a youth pastor who dares suggest that it might not be necessary for every single student go to college. I think you can imagine some of the feedback that I get.