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06/28/07
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Hyper-Calvinism: A Brief Definition

The term hyper-Calvinist is often used as a pejorative. Almost any Calvinist who adheres to the doctrines of grace is likely to be considered a hyper-Calvinist by at least someone. Frankly speaking, a hyper-Calvinist can be any Calvinist to a person who doesn’t understand Calvinism. So today, just briefly, and because the term has come up a few times in recent weeks, I want to narrow in on a more accurate definition of it. First we’ll look at a few examples of what does not constitute hyper-Calvinism. Then we’ll actually define the term.

While most Calvinists hold to the five points of Calvinism as summarized by the acronym TULIP, there are some who refer to themselves as six or seven-point Calvinists. One person who is known to identify himself as a seven-point Calvinist is John Piper. He does so half-jokingly but does so to communicate a truth that the five points of Calvinism are not exhaustive in a consideration of God’s sovereign saving grace. The Desiring God web site says, “Piper isn’t seeking to add two more points, but is simply calling attention to his belief in the traditional five points (total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints) in a way that also points toward two additional ‘Calvinistic’ truths that follow from them: double predestination and the best-of-all-possible worlds.” Double predestination is widely considered the sixth-point. It is simply the other side to predestination, that just as God sovereignly chooses those whom He will save, in the same way he chooses those whom He will not save. There are some Calvinists who reject this idea, saying that God chooses His elect while everyone else makes their own choice to be condemned. A six-point Calvinist though, believes that God chooses some for salvation and some for perdition and that He does so not on the basis that some people are better or worse than others, but simply through His sovereign choice.

The seventh-point of Calvinism, at least according to John Piper (and I’m uncertain whether others regard this as the seventh point) is the best-of-all-possible worlds, which “means that God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world.” Yet even someone who is willing to extend Calvinism beyond the five points is not “hyper.” A seven-point Calvinist is not a hyper-Calvinist.

An Enthusiastic Calvinist, or a person who really, really likes to talk about these doctrines, is also not a hyper-Calvinist. Someone who is an ardent Calvinist, who believes in these doctrines and talks about nothing else is still not “hyper” according to the historic use of the word.

So what, then, is a hyper-Calvinist?

Part of the confusion about this term no doubt arises from the use of the prefix “hyper.” “Hyper” does not refer, as many might think, to enthusiasm or excitement. Rather its basic meaning is along the lines of “excessive or excessively.” You might think of the word hyperactive which means “excessively active.” Hyper- comes from the Greek prefix huper-, which comes from the preposition huper, meaning “over, beyond.” So a hyper-Calvinist is one who goes beyond and over the bounds of what Calvinism teaches (and thus over the bounds of what the Bible teaches). He is excessive in his application of the doctrines. This manifests itself in an over-emphasis of one aspect of God’s character at the expense of another. Hyper-Calvinists emphasize God’s sovereignty but de-emphasize God’s love. They tend to set God’s sovereignty at odds with the clear biblical call to human responsibility. We can see how these are worked out as we look at a concise definition of the term. Phil Johnson, who has done extensive research on this subject very helpfully defines hyper-Calvinists using a five-fold definition. A hyper-Calvinist is one who:

  1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
  2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
  3. Denies that the gospel makes any “offer” of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
  4. Denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” OR
  5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

As Phil says, “All five varieties of hyper-Calvinism undermine evangelism or twist the gospel message.” So this is the key to understanding hyper-Calvinism: it undermines evangelism and/or somehow distorts the gospel message.

Probably the most distinguishing characteristic of a Hyper-Calvinist is an unwillingness to evangelize at all, or to evangelize without extending a call to accept and believe the gospel. An example of a hyper-Calvinistic confession makes this clear. Article 33 of Articles of Faith of the Gospel Standard Aid and Poor Relief Societies says, “Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Ghost, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption.” In other words, they say, to command people to turn from their sin and to repent is to command them to do something they are unable to do for this would deny the doctrine of particular redemption. Yet this teaching is clearly at odds with the Bible’s call for all men to believe. The offer of the gospel is universal and God truly does command all men to heed it. Faith is a duty for all men. God’s common grace extends to all men and, while God does not love elect and non-elect in the same way, the Bible is clear that He does love all that He has created.

Keep that five-fold definition in mind and you’ll have a good idea of what it truly means to be a hyper-Calvinist. Of course I have little confidence that articles like this one will make any real difference. The term hyper-Calvinist is a convenient and baggage-filled one to lob into an argument or discussion. But at least now we know whether or not we truly fit that mold!

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Hyper-Calvinism: A Brief Definition

Comments (113) »


1. Stuart
June 28, 2007
11:15 AM

Good post, Tim. Thanks for trying to clear the name of Calvinists…I don’t think I’ve seen a historical figure so misunderstood and maligned through ignorance as Calvin (but don’t quote me on that… I could be wrong).

I’m not to sure about Phil Johnson’s identification of a hyper-Calvinist as one who denies common grace. That notion is one that has been heavily debated, at least in Dutch church history. It’s a Kuyperian teaching, objected to (in name, not necessarily in definition) by Schilder and others in the early 20th century. Schilder took issue with Kuyper calling this ‘grace’ since to Schilder grace is God’s salvation work (if I’m remembering correctly), not his providence in the world.


2. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 28, 2007
11:21 AM

Another characteristic of hyper-calvinism seems to be the anathema of anyone who doesn’t hold to EXACTLY the same views as they do. In other words - I think this is accurate - they require perfect knowledge (according their own standard) in order to be saved.

I have read of those who were at odds with hyper-calvinists over some minor issue being labeled as a heretic and reprobate.


3. Stuart
June 28, 2007
11:21 AM

Oh yeah, and John Piper’s comments, although I have not studied them in detail, sound very like Leibniz, whose philosophy, although interesting, was theologically weak.

Rather than saying that this is the ‘best of all possible worlds’ I think it would be better to say that this is the world as it is, and God, because of his sovereignty and omnipotence, because of who he is, will make sure that he is glorified more fully in the end, no matter what the world could be like. I have always found discussion about ‘best of all possible worlds’ to be besides the point, since there is only one, and this is the one we have to deal with.

And ‘best of all possible’ limits God’s omnipotence and omniscience, since if there is such a thing as ‘all possible worlds,’ then God was limited in what he could create—there was a standard outside of himself that limited his creativity.


4. gavin
June 28, 2007
11:23 AM

Our student pastor preached this past Sunday, and quoted Piper’s well-known mantra “God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.” He didn’t even attribute the quote to Piper, and his sermon was not about anything Calvinistic.

The amusing thing is that afterwards, a lady in the congregation, came up to him and “notified” him that she knew that he had cited a “hyper-Calvinist” in his sermon. Sheesh.


5. Alan Kurschner
June 28, 2007
12:07 PM

Tim, thanks for this post. For those who would like to learn about historical hyper-calvinism in the context that Daniel Fuller dealt with, Piper gave a biographical sketch on it here (text or audio):

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/

“Andrew Fuller’s Broadsides Against Sandemanianism, Hyper-Calvinism, and Global Unbelief”

Alan


6. Concerned
June 28, 2007
12:21 PM

I asked Brian this personally and maybe this is way off topic but I have a personal concern with this especially in what Brian posted.

I agree completely with what Brian wrote. My heart is heavy because although I believe what hewrote, I can’t help but feel scared for my family who hates Calvinism with a passion. It has even caused them to treat my wife I and I poorly and I don’t know…I guess it is getting more difficult to believe they are Christians when they hate the truth so bad, and treat those who believe it so poorly. Any insight anyone can give would be helpful.


7. Harry Droogendyk
June 28, 2007
2:23 PM

One of the best treatments I’ve ever seen on this subject is one written by Pastor William Payne found here


8. Calvin after coffee
June 28, 2007
2:38 PM

How enlightening this post is - I always thought the term “hyper-Calvinist” referred to Tim Challies after he drank some strong coffee.


9. Ochuk
June 28, 2007
3:31 PM

Doesn’t Sproul say in Chosen By God that hyper-Calvinism also sees reprobation as a positive thing? Normal Calvinism sees it as something that is negative. I bet you got that book laying around somewhere in your vast library there, Challies. :)


10. donsands
June 28, 2007
5:08 PM

“Probably the most distinguishing characteristic of a Hyper-Calvinist is an unwillingness to evangelize at all, or to evangelize without extending a call to accept and believe the gospel.”

To be truthful, I haven’t met any hyper, or ultra-Calvinists. Though I know they’re out there.

I have been said to be a “flaming” Calvinist, and yet I hardly ever refer to myself as a Calvinist, unless the term helps in a good way.

Thanks for the good post.

I have know some Calvinists who get a little puffed up in their theology. I know this happens, because it has happened to me. The Lord usually sends a godly Arminian friend to humble me.

The Lord knows how to make us humble.


11. DLE
June 28, 2007
5:44 PM

Tim,

I think any Christian—of any doctrinal stance—who fails to lead with love is a hyper-“whatever the doctrinal stance.”

People wield their theology like a cudgel sometimes and it destroys others, others the cudgel-wielder failed to even get to know before he or she started swinging that weapon around.

In today’s culture, the true Christian is the one who is willing to show patience with people who aren’t where he is. We were all once somewhere else. Whether it be coming to knowledge of Christ in the first place or simply growing deeper in the Faith, we need to show godly patience. The Lord shows patience with us, doesn’t He?

But the “hyper” person has no love or patience for anyone who’s not perfectly in line with his belief system. And that destroys rather than builds. It’s cheap, asks nothing of the hyper, and shows a massive disinterest in the lives of his neighbors. Because he has more holy things to attend to, he becomes the one who willfully passes by the man robbed and left for dead at the side of the road.

And we know how the Lord feels about that.


12. Ann Addison
June 28, 2007
6:19 PM

Tim, great post. Precision in language would end a multitude of disagreements.


13. donsands
June 28, 2007
6:27 PM

Another thought hit me. When a Calvinist says the Lord doesn’t love all people the same, and He died for His children, and not for everyone, then is he not thought of at least bordering on hyper?


14. Anna
June 28, 2007
6:56 PM

Thank you for that explanation! I just read Mark Dever’s article on young Calvinists yesterday and was confused by the term “hyper-Calvinists,” so this definition is much appreciated.


15. EG
June 28, 2007
7:17 PM

OK, so if the definition of “hyper” is that it undermines evangelism, then why isn’t double predestination “hyper”, in that it leads, quite logically, to the idea that there is no need to attempt to evangelize the damned if they really have no hope.


16. Nath @ Reformed Geek
June 28, 2007
7:23 PM

Thanks Tim for this post - you have cleared up my definition of Hyper Calvinist. Thanks also for the links in the comments, I will be sure to check them out.

The only thing that surprised me about this article is that maybe I am a 6-pointer cue squirrel video. I did not realise that God electing some to perdition was not the natural result of God electing those whom He would save. I will have to go and do some reading & praying about this. If anyone has any resources on ‘double predestination’ then that would be helpful.


17. Dallas Pymm
June 28, 2007
7:35 PM

“why isn’t double predestination “hyper”, in that it leads, quite logically, to the idea that there is no need to attempt to evangelize the damned if they really have no hope.”

It may seem logical to some people but it is not Biblical, and there by not a belief of us plain old not Hyper Calvinists.


18. Ken
June 28, 2007
9:26 PM

EG: As Spurgeon observed, show me the elect and I shall preach only to them.

God knows—and has not revealed to us in their full extent—his people. He has appointed the preaching of the gospel as his ordinary means by which he brings his people to a saving knowledge of him (Romans 10, right?). And he has commanded evangelism. That alone is sufficient reason for the Calvinist to evangelize.


19. John K
June 28, 2007
10:05 PM

I continue to be amazed at the obvious incompatibility of these two statements:

Double predestination is widely considered the sixth-point. It is simply the other side to predestination, that just as God sovereignly chooses those whom He will save, in the same way he chooses those whom He will not save.

and

“The offer of the gospel is universal and God truly does command all men to heed it.”

The two are plainly contradictory. Someone said that the non-necessity of evangelism may seem logical but it is not Biblical. I agree it is not Biblical, but that non-evangelizing attitude follows directly and unequivocally from the concept of unconditional individual election. I believe it is the ‘U’ in TULIP that is unbiblical. Take Care


20. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 28, 2007
10:12 PM

a godly Arminian

Is that possible? :)


21. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 28, 2007
10:17 PM

I believe it is the ‘U’ in TULIP that is unbiblical. Take Care

That’s called a drive-by blog comment, John K.

“Jacob I have loved, but Esau I hated.”

“those who were long ago marked out for condemnation”

“son of perdition”

“for this reason I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you”

Just a few quick examples of vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction.


22. Jabbok
June 28, 2007
10:31 PM

“Probably the most distinguishing characteristic of a Hyper-Calvinist is an unwillingness to evangelize at all, or to evangelize without extending a call to accept and believe the gospel.”

I don’t believe that the modern “Invitation System” should be understood as being equal to or synonymous with “extending a call to accept and believe the gospel.”

I know many men who have been labeled as Hyper-Calvinists because they refused to pressure people into walking down an isle to make a decision for Christ but their sermons were not void of extending a call to accept and believe the gospel.


23. donsands
June 28, 2007
10:52 PM

a godly Arminian

Is that possible? :)

Rhetorical questions always say it better.


24. EG
June 28, 2007
10:56 PM

It may seem logical to some people but it is not Biblical, and there by not a belief of us plain old not Hyper Calvinists.

This is the weirdest part of Calvinism in general (at least to me). It is all about being very systematic and, indeed, logical… until the logic seems to go too far, whereby logic is tossed by the wayside.

My understanding is that the Scriptures plainly teach BOTH God’s sovereignty and man’s free choice. If God, in His sovereignty, provided man with free choice, then that is His sovereign prerogative (sort of Wesley’s idea of preveniant grace, I guess).

If, somehow, the circle is squared in another way that we don’t understand, then fine as well.

Since the scriptures teach both, I am willing to believe both, even if they seem to contradict. I know that this is not the majority opinion on this blog, and that’s fine. I’m not “hyper” anything and I don’t suppose most here are either - and one way or another, we’re all brothers and sisters in Christ.


25. John K
June 28, 2007
11:03 PM

“Just a few quick examples of vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction.”

Yes, a few examples, but not proof of universality. Just because God hardened Pharoah’s heart, (and yes, I believe He has the sovereign right to harden anyone He pleases) doesn’t mean He hardens everyone’s who will not be saved. Just because He can, doesn’t mean He must.

I’m not sure what a “drive by blog comment is” but if it is inappropriate, I apologize. I thought my comment followed from the rest of my post.

I have mentioned this here before that my belief is (and I think it is entirely Biblical) that the elect is the Body of Christ. All who come to faith in him are elect, chosen or predestined “in him” (Ephesians 1)

Take CAre


26. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 28, 2007
11:59 PM

My drive-by remark was in response to what appeared to me to be a quick declaration against unconditional election, followed by a “Take care”, as if that was the end of it. It was meant to be a light-hearted remark.

the elect is the Body of Christ

I have heard this somewhere else, but can’t remember where. Wherever it was, the person who promoted this idea (of a collective elect rather than individual election - that is what you are suggesting, isn’t it?) described being elect and predestined like being on a ship heading to a particular port (in this case, salvation), and anyone on that ship was of the elect…but they could choose to get off that ship and get back on whenever they so chose.

Does this represent what you believe, John K?

You say my examples do not prove universality with respect to God’s election and hardening. How about these:

-two groups: children with God as their Father and children with satan as their father

-two groups: those vessels of honor prepared for glory, and those vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

-two groups: those who were chosen, and those who were hardened

-two groups: the sheep and the goats

-two groups: those who inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, and those who go into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

-two groups: those who have been given to Christ and those who have not

-two groups: those who are drawn (the greek word literally means brought) to Christ and are saved, and those who cannot come to Him because it has not been granted them by the Father (not won’t, but cannot…they do not have the ability).

Finally,

And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.” - Mark 4:11-12


27. Rey
June 29, 2007
12:22 AM


28. SteveE
June 29, 2007
1:01 AM

I believe my brother would be a member of a hyper-Calvinist group, though the term cult might be more appropriate. I don’t mean that to include Calvinist in general, only that his group is…well, odd.

I find much to appriciate in Calivinism, though I do not find scripture supports most of its idea’s. That’s not germain to this post, but it is still a good definition of hyper-Calvinism.


29. WM
June 29, 2007
1:14 AM

An important point to note with understanding double predestination is whether God initiates a positive act in determining to save the elect. He actually intercedes in securring their salvation. They are as Sproul would say, “made willing to believe”. On the other hand, the reprobate continue in their unbelief….willingly. Without the regeneration of the heart taking place, the unregenerate willing pursue their sin, they are at enmity with God.

Also, the Call that goes out is the preaching of the word. God calls his elect to faith through the preaching of the word. It’s like the old illustration of being at a conference and the speaker says that there is 1999 Toyota Corolla in the parking lot with the license plate number of 123TWTY. If that was your car then you heard the call to go check your lights. Everybody in ear shot of the speaker’s microphone heard the “Call” but it was only meant for you to hear and respond. Such is the preaching of the Gospel, all hear and only those “Called” recognize that God has called them to believe…. thus saved.


30. WM
June 29, 2007
1:14 AM

An important point to note with understanding double predestination is whether God initiates a positive act in determining to save the elect. He actually intercedes in securring their salvation. They are as Sproul would say, “made willing to believe”. On the other hand, the reprobate continue in their unbelief….willingly. Without the regeneration of the heart taking place, the unregenerate willing pursue their sin, they are at enmity with God.

Also, the Call that goes out is the preaching of the word. God calls his elect to faith through the preaching of the word. It’s like the old illustration of being at a conference and the speaker says that there is 1999 Toyota Corolla in the parking lot with the license plate number of 123TWTY. If that was your car then you heard the call to go check your lights. Everybody in ear shot of the speaker’s microphone heard the “Call” but it was only meant for you to hear and respond. Such is the preaching of the Gospel, all hear and only those “Called” recognize that God has called them to believe…. thus saved.


31. francisco
June 29, 2007
1:16 AM

Jesus did not say “you are not my sheep because you don’t believe”. He said “you don’t believe, because you are not part of my flock” (John 10:26). So, you are either a sheep or a goat. No interbreeding allowed.


32. John K
June 29, 2007
1:27 AM

“…but they could choose to get off that ship and get back on whenever they so chose. Does this represent what you believe, John K?”

No. I don’t believe people can, “get on the ship” by themselves. God Himself must lift us on to it. Once on it, I think Scripture is clear that He will never let us off it.

As for the rest of your examples, I don’t think they are inconsistent with the view I espoused. God decided before the foundation of the world that all who trust in Him would be saved, and all who don’t, won’t. Those in the Body of Christ understand, those outside, can’t. Those who seek will find, those who prefer darkness to light are condemned.

Take Care


33. Alan Kurschner
June 29, 2007
1:32 AM

Whenever the term “double predestination” is broached, the term begs to be clarified.

If you mean by the term that it is God’s positive action of saving sinners for an elect people, and passing over other sinners by leaving them in their sin and thereby judgement, then that is the classical Calvinist sense of the term.

If you mean by the term that all people are morally neutral and God condemns innocent people to hell, but saves others, then that is not what Calvinists believe. Although, people sure like to caricature Calvinists in this latter sense of the term.

Alan


34. Lance M. Roberts
June 29, 2007
3:25 AM

So a hyper-Calvinist is one who goes beyond and over the bounds of what Calvinism teaches (and thus over the bounds of what the Bible teaches).

Many would say Piper’s 6th and 7th points are just that as the Bible doesn’t talk about God electing people to hell and etc. I think as Phil says, most of the time hyper-Calvinistic name-calling is usually an overreaction of those who think Calvinists don’t proclaim the gospel and call people to repentance.

Though I believe in unconditional election as one brother above doesn’t and affirm God’s grace in salvation and etc., I don’t understand why it is the hobby horse for so many? We should be focused on preaching the WHOLE counsel of God. I don’t see the Apostle Paul making TULIP the primary thrust of his preaching ministry. He preached the truth and through that these doctrines were taught. They didn’t dominate his conversation and ministry as so many blogs and preachers today do.


35. dovesandserpents
June 29, 2007
8:50 AM

There appears to be a good deal of confusion as to what Double Predestination is. Alan’s definition in comment 33 of God’s postive action in saving some while passing over others is actually the definition of Single Predestination. The whole point of Double Predestination is that God both activley saves one group and actively damns the other.

In practice Double Predestination belongs to Supralapsarianianism, in which God decides first to save some (the elect) and damn others (the reprobate) , before permitting the Fall which leads to the damning of the reprobate.

Single Predestination belongs to Sublapsarianism in which Election is God’s rescue plan after the fall has happened. The Elect are saved by God’s decree. There is simply no equivalent decree for those not so elected, they are simply judged for their sins.

For the record I am a Sublapsarian believer in ‘the best of all worlds’. I believe that Salvation is God’s great post Fall rescue plan to save the maximum number of people possible.


36. Ken
June 29, 2007
9:10 AM

Adding to the fray: Some posters here seem to assume that double predestination (DP) is the “positive-positive” scheme that is also called equal ultimacy and has been associated with some forms of hyper-calvinism. Dr. Sproul (among others) has been careful to distinguish what he means by DP is the “positive-negative” scheme that typically goes by the designation election and preterition. According to this idea, God actively chooses/elects/predestines his people out of the entire mass of fallen humanity; the remainder he passes by.

The other point that seems to elude some is that God is just to command sinners to come to Christ to be saved even though they are spiritually unable to respond; the fault for their inability lies within themselves.


37. Pete
June 29, 2007
9:37 AM

“Probably the most distinguishing characteristic of a Hyper-Calvinist is an unwillingness to evangelize at all, or to evangelize without extending a call to accept and believe the gospel.”

Nice post. It goes without saying we are commanded by our Lord to share the gospel of Christ’s atoning sacrifice for Sin. But, nice to see I am not alone in the gentle frustration regarding the popular “Making a ‘Decision’ for Jesus” as if it was man’s work and not God’s work(as scripture teaches).

As a Lutheran ‘cousin’ to my Calvinist friends; I wanted to say Amen. We disagree on some items, but we share this.

I guess that makes me a ‘hyper’ Lutheran!?

-Pete


38. Joop
June 29, 2007
9:52 AM

To Brian (#26)

You gave some biblical examples as to how certain classes of people can be put in two different groups. Like the sheep and the goates.

However, somehow something is missing to form the whole picture. At least the following three points:

First: What about this: two groups: the angels and the fallen angels. Did God predestined ‘lucifer’ to be (become) satan? What has Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism to say about this, I wonder.

Second: did God create us as either sheep or goats? Or rather: are we people born as either sheep or goats?

Third: I believe we all had once the satan as our (spiritual) father. However, that doesn’t apply to us anymore, right?

God bless, Joop


39. Nathan
June 29, 2007
10:30 AM

I’m fairly ignorant of most of the arguments on either side, but I’ve learned some things along the way. Perhaps the following is a good addition to your definition of hyper-calvinist: “Any person who uses their doctrine, in this case Calvinism, as a reason to hold back special effort in evangelism.”

An example of this would be something like: “Why would you go to all that trouble? If God wants them to be saved, they’ll get saved. No need to do [insert creative evangelistic practice]. Do you really think God needs your help to get someone saved?”

Would I be accurate in classifying someone of this mindset as a hyper-Calvinist?


40. Greg
June 29, 2007
10:57 AM

Spurgeon’s comment on “vessels prepared for destruction” in Romans 9…

Are there not some of you, here present, who are being fitted for destruction? God is not fitting you, you are fitting yourselves, by daily developing and indulging the depravity of your heart. You are seeking out every new pleasure and every new sin and though often warned to turn from your course of evil, are there not some of you who are rushing headlong to destruction? Are not many of you by a course of sin and folly, ripening yourselves for the great harvest of the Lord? Are you not making yourselves ready to be as stubble fully dried, cast into the oven of His wrath? – Charles Spurgeon

Interesting…


41. Greg
June 29, 2007
10:58 AM

Spurgeon’s comment on “vessels prepared for destruction” in Romans 9…

Are there not some of you, here present, who are being fitted for destruction? God is not fitting you, you are fitting yourselves, by daily developing and indulging the depravity of your heart. You are seeking out every new pleasure and every new sin and though often warned to turn from your course of evil, are there not some of you who are rushing headlong to destruction? Are not many of you by a course of sin and folly, ripening yourselves for the great harvest of the Lord? Are you not making yourselves ready to be as stubble fully dried, cast into the oven of His wrath? – Charles Spurgeon

Interesting…


42. Renee
June 29, 2007
11:13 AM

Before I read any one else’s comments, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you. I am still working out my thinkin about the five points of Calvinism, but I see that I could very easily be thinking along the hyper-calvinist lines, if not careful. It really is all about God’s grace, isn’t it? He is so gracious to send something along to correct my broken thinking, just when I need it. Thank you for being His instrument to do just that.


43. donsands
June 29, 2007
11:23 AM

“Would I be accurate in classifying someone of this mindset as a hyper-Calvinist?” -Nathan

Absolutely.

The bottom line is that God will have mercy upon whom He is pleased to have mercy upon. He owes no one His mercy. We who have been shown this most great mercy long for others to embrace, and receive this same mercy, and so we cry out to our loved ones who don’t know Christ to call out to God for His mercy. “Repent and trust Christ!”, we cry to others with hearts desiring to see God show His mercy, so that others will come to worship the Father in Spirit and truth, and so that the name of Jesus Christ is glorified. It’s God’s choice to whom He will give His mercy. It’s our duty to proclaim the truth with thankful hearts, which have come to love this great mercy, which we in no way shall ever merit.


44. Dallas Pymm
June 29, 2007
11:33 AM

“This is the weirdest part of Calvinism in general (at least to me). It is all about being very systematic and, indeed, logical… until the logic seems to go too far, whereby logic is tossed by the wayside.”

You’ll notice I did not say it was logical. I said it may seem logical to some people. Logic is only useful if it is Biblical, where logic seems to contradict clear Biblical truths it then should be tossed aside. One example might be God’s Sovereignty and Human responsibility. Both proclaimed in scripture, yet does not seem logical to some people and not believed. At this point they should toss their logic and trust the Bible. Paul certainly did this in Romans 9

“19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? “

Notice how Paul does not try to logically defend God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility in salvation here. He just says “it’s true, God says it’s true, who are you to say otherwise”.

So that is the question. Who is man to believe otherwise if God’s word clearly teaches it?

Nathan: “Would I be accurate in classifying someone of this mindset as a hyper-Calvinist?”

I think most definitely.


45. Stuart
June 29, 2007
11:34 AM

To Joop, #38:

First: Bringing in the distinction between fallen and not-fallen angels is not useful in a discussion about elect and not-elect. We don’t know very much at all about the fall of the angels, and so can’t say anything about it with any certainty. The fact that the Bible says very little about angels at all (except mentioning them at times) shows that we ourselves ought not say anything that the Bible doesn’t.

People and angels are different, and therefore when speaking about God’s sovereign act of predestination, we have to stick with what is in the Bible, and stick to talking about human beings. The angels are, so to speak, non of our business right now.

Second: God created us as ‘sheep,’ but in our father Adam we became ‘goats’ and in his sovereign free grace, God chose some to be ‘sheep’ again. If you want to talk about in our life now, read Psalm 51: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” God did not make us ‘goats’ in the sense that he decides that we are all going to be sinners as we are born. But we are born of imperfect material—our parents. What is imperfect cannot produce what is perfect, except for divine intervention, and I only know of one case of that happening.

Third: How was Satan our spiritual father? Unless you mean that we, as sinners, where his children. Then yes, we were all his children, slaves to sin, but God chose some to be his own children.


46. Scott
June 29, 2007
11:40 AM

Tim or anybody, Could someone answer #19? I have been thinking that it is because foreknowledge precedes predestination in Romans 8. God knows who will respond to the universal call and so He chooses them and lays out a plan for their salvation. “Those He foreknew, He also predestined…” Is this an un-Calvinest view? Thanks, Scott


47. Ken
June 29, 2007
11:53 AM

Scott: When interpreting Romans 8:29 it is important to avoid importing a mistaken definition of foreknowledge. The concept being communicated in that verse is not that God intellectually knows all things including all future events and hence the future choices of all people. It is already well established that God is omniscient. Rather, it is knowledge in the sense communicated in passages such as Psalm 1:6 where “know” communicates intimacy and love. “Foreknew” in Romans 8:29 really means “foreloved,” indicating those whom God loved and chose from the foundations of the earth.


48. Josh
June 29, 2007
12:03 PM

Scott (#46),

That would be an “unCalvinistic view”. Foreknowledge does precede predestination in Romans 8:28, but foreknowledge is not the same as foresight. The verse doesn’t say that he knew what people would do. It says he foreknew people. If foreknew simply means “knew about before hand”, then everyone should be predestined, and thus glorified, as the progression goes in 8:29.

When it says foreknew, it means “loved beforehand” (sort of like Adam “knowing” Eve). Reading Ephesians 1:4-5 might be helpful. It clearly teaches that because of his love for us, God predestined us (the church at Ephesus) for adoption. Also, think about the word foreknown in 1 Peter 1:20. This is not speaking of Jesus’ actions, it is speaking of God’s love for Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

Hope this helps.


49. Gary (aka fool4jesus)
June 29, 2007
12:17 PM

My thoughts on #19:

that non-evangelizing attitude follows directly and unequivocally from the concept of unconditional individual election

No, that attitude follows directly from following the non-Biblical idea that we should follow what we believe to be God’s secret decree and ignore what is clearly revealed as God’s revealed decree. Just because I, as a Calvinist, honestly think that I know what God’s secret decree is (election and reprobation), it would be foolish as well as sinful to follow what we think falls out of that understanding and ignore God’s direct commands.

When it comes down to it, we evangelize for two major reasons: God told us to, and God told us that only through hearing the Gospel are people regenerated. It’s primarily a matter of obedience, but we also understand that people come to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel. That I 100% understand how that works out in God’s perfect understanding is not so important.


50. Gary (aka fool4jesus)
June 29, 2007
12:19 PM

I meant to write “that I don’t 100% understand …” Sorry about that. I don’t even 100% understand my own job, let alone God’s job … :-)


51. John K
June 29, 2007
2:00 PM

Scott #46

Post 19 was mine, and no one has yet answered the obvious contradiction between the two statements I quoted.

Election based on God’s foreknowledge is not biblical, because it exalts an individual’s choice over God’s sovereignty. IOW, God, knowing a person’s future decision would then be obligated to elect that person. That is a Arminian position.

Even though I differ with most on this board regarding the basis of election, I am not an Arminian. I consider myself a 3-point Clavinist.. IOW, I believe that the vowels of the TULIP acronym do not confirm with the ENTIRE counsel of Scripture. God is still sovereign in election, but I believe He honours His promises to all who seek Him, as He has commanded all to do, a position that 5-point Calvinism cannot (or at least does not seem to) acknowledge.

I believe what is known as the “open decree of election” more closely satisties all of Scripture, taken as a whole.


52. donsands
June 29, 2007
2:20 PM

“I believe He honours His promises to all who seek Him”

Amen.

But the Calvinist would say man is dead in his sins, and he odesn’t seek God, the true Triune God. Man seeks his own god. But never the Holy One of all creation.

But God, with His great love has sought us, and quicken us from the dead, all those to whom He has chosen to do so.

It’s not about man running and seeking God, or willing to seek God, btu it’s about God who shows mercy.


53. Gary (aka fool4jesus)
June 29, 2007
2:21 PM

John, it’s not true that Calvinism does not address your concern. In fact, your very objection is at the forefront of most, if not all, Calvinist’s minds as well. It’s common among synergists such as you are (unlike many Calvinists, I would not call you an Arminian, nor an “inconsistent Arminian”, because I do not think it respectful to a person to call them a label they object to).

In fact, Calvinism does address it, as it must; for any Calvinist with a heart has the same objection. The Calvinist answer is quite simple: God does save any person who seeks Him; the problem is that there is no one who seeks after God, as Romans 3:11 tells us. Jonathan Edwards described this situation as the will being bound or “fettered” by sin. Any man who believes will be saved; but man on his own will never believe. God must take out our hearts of stone and put in a heart of flesh: at that point, we will be saved.

I have addressed this issue on my own blog; though no doubt not as cogently or completely as many others, my thoughts on the subject may or may not be worth at least considering.

Regardless, don’t think that just because you don’t agree with our conclusions, that we have not considered the problem. In fact, perhaps another way to differentiate between a Calvinist and a hyper-Calvinist is that a hyper-Calvinist doesn’t care about the very problem you raise: a Calvinist cares very much, and has considered all the evidence, and comes to the conclusion that, despite our feelings and emotions, the Biblical evidence is clear in favor of the “U”. Blessings.


54. Joop
June 29, 2007
2:41 PM

To Stuart #45

“Bringing in the distinction between fallen and not-fallen angels is not useful in a discussion about elect and not-elect.”

Actually, I thought this is a discussion about hyper-Calvinism.

Let me quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith: “By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His own glory, some men AND ANGELS are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death”.[capitals mine] Do you agree with this?

“God created us as ‘sheep,’ but in our father Adam we became ‘goats’”. Interesting. But how and when did this happen? And has this to do with predestination? (see quote Westminster Confession of Faith)

“If you want to talk about in our life now, read Psalm 51: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

However KJV says: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. It says nothing about David’s sinfulness at the moment of his conception or his birth. Or do you think David was also conceived and born as a goat? In fact, David was elected and chosen to be a king. He didn’t sin because of his sinfulness, but because he made many wrong choices (in the case of Bathseba).

“What is imperfect cannot produce what is perfect” Can you support this by some scripture?

If this were true, all ‘offspring’ cannot hold responsible for their inperfection [sinfulness].

God bless, Joop


55. Gary (aka fool4jesus)
June 29, 2007
3:32 PM

Joop, I think the comment about being created as sheep and becoming quoted was made off-hand and perhaps poorly chosen. In fact, we are chosen to be sheep from before the beginning: the fact that before regeneration we are acting like goats does not make us goats. Even today, every time I sin, I act like a goat: but that does not make me one.

I think his point is clearly that Adam was created sinless but became sinful, and we in him became the same. We are sinners because we sin, true: but it’s also true that we sin because we are sinners.


56. John K
June 29, 2007
3:51 PM

I believe that 5-point, and therefore 6-point, which follows directly from it, Calvinism is hung up on an overly literal reading of Rom 3:11, itself in turn a reference to the beginning verses of Psalms 14 and 53.

I believe David, in writing these Psalms was using the figure of speech of hyperbole, or deliberate exaggeration. Calvinists are fond of using the idea of< “all doesn’t necessarily mean all” shen it suits their purpose, but don’t stop to question whether “no one” really means “no one.”

If no one seeks God, literally, what do you do with Psalm 63, “ernestly I seek You.”

Scripture must be taken as inerrant, but a truly literal taking of these verses cannot deny a contradiction. Likewise, Rom 3:10 says, “There is no one righteous…” but several people in both Old and New Testaments are described as righteous, including Noah, Simeon, and the parents of John the Baptist. Another contradiction? No, but just an understanding of writing expressions.

Perhaps these Psalms, written by David at a discouraging time, are similar to the case of Ezekiel when he said, “I am the only one left.” (1 Kings 19:14)

I believe that if one sees the elect as the Body of Christ, it allows for God’s complete sovereignty in salvation. It acknowledges His commands that all seek Him. And it avoids the undeniable accusations that He is capricious and arbitrary by choosing only some specific individuals for salvation and thereby condemning the rest, actively denying them the possibility of faith in Him.

Take Care


57. WM
June 29, 2007
5:47 PM

No one stands as righteous outside of the righteousness of Christ. His righteous is imputed to believers, they are in union with Him. All who are referred to as righteous in the old and new testaments have already been made righteous by Christ’s righteousness. They have already been regenerated.


58. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 29, 2007
5:55 PM

John,

The only problem with your position on the Psalms passages is that you have failed to take into consideration that fact that Paul uses them to make his point that all the world is guilty and stands condemned before God.

What is Paul’s point for quoting them? Is it to say:

There is none righteous, not even one There is none who understands There is none who seeks for God All have turned aside Together they have become useless There is none who does good There is not even one

Or is Paul instead using these verses for some metaphorical point? If so, what is the point Paul is making by quoting these OT verses, if it is not to state what I just listed above?


59. donsands
June 29, 2007
7:02 PM

“I believe that if one sees the elect as the Body of Christ, it allows for God’s complete sovereignty in salvation. It acknowledges His commands that all seek Him.” -JohnK

John, Could you expound on this thought for me? I’m a bit confused. Thanks.


60. John K
June 29, 2007
8:02 PM

Hi again, I don’t have much time right now, but let try to explain at least part of what I believe very briefly. I do believe that no one is righteous, apart from God. Any righteousness we have is not ours, but is the imputed righteousness of Christ to all who believe. However, I don’t think that precludes anyone from seeking Him. God has revealed Himself to all people (they are without excuse), He draws all people to Himself and commands that all people seek Him. I don’t pretend to understand the mechanism by which he draws unrighteous people to seek Him, but if He can cause a camel to pass through the eye of a needle He can do it. “With God all things are possible.”

Jesus is the light of the world, the light given to all men. Those who turn toward the light will be saved, those who prefer darkness rather than light (John 3:19) will turn away and be eternally condemned.

Take Care,


61. John K
June 29, 2007
8:12 PM

I should add, for clarification, in my last paragraph above, those who turn toward the light and believe will be saved.

Take Care


62. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 29, 2007
8:41 PM

He draws all people to Himself

John,

According to Jesus, everyone who is drawn is saved.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

Also, you did not answer my question concerning what Paul was saying by quoting from the OT in Romans 3. You said that perhaps the Psalmist was using hyperbole when he said there is no one who does good or is righteous or seeks after God, but what point was Paul making in quoting those OT passages?


63. donsands
June 29, 2007
8:44 PM

“those who prefer darkness”

The Calvinist would say this is all mankind. We all hate the light, or the truth. John 3

No one will turn to the light, unless he is regenerated, or quickened from the dead. John 3

Unless someone is born from above, he will never prefer anything but the darkness. And even after salvation has come to one from the Lord, the heart is yet desperately wicked, and needs grace and the Holy Spirit to sanctify and keep within the marvelous light.

I truly believe if you believe one point of the TULIP, then the other four are necessary. They go hand in glove.


64. John K
June 29, 2007
8:55 PM

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

That verse merely says that no one can come unless he is drawn. It does not say that all who are drawn will come.

My point about the Psalms and Paul quoting them is that they can’t be taken in a wooden literal manner when the Bible clearly speaks in other places of people either seeking or being commanded by God to seek, or being told what rewards await those who seek, or being promised that if we seek Him we will find Him, if we seek Him with all our heart.

Take Care


65. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 29, 2007
9:08 PM

John,

Read the verse again. Jesus equates the raising up w/the drawing, and the coming with the drawing. There is no indication from the text that there are those who are drawn but who do not come.

Couple this truth with what Jesus also says in verse 65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Would you also say that there are some to whom the Father has granted to come, but who do not? If so, then why would this statement have offended so many (who then were no longer walking with Jesus)?

“if we seek Him with all our heart.”

How does a heart of stone seek God?


66. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 29, 2007
9:12 PM

Secondly,

Would you agree that - from verse 65 - there are some who are NOT granted to come? What is one to do to whom is has NOT been granted?

If they CAN’T come unless it has been granted (as Jesus cleraly states in this verse), and God hasn’t granted it to some, then what would be the purpose of Him looking down through time to elect those who would elect Him, if it is only those to whom He has granted to come will actually come?


67. Ken
June 29, 2007
9:17 PM

John K: By way of attempting to satisfy you as to your question in #19, may I ask if you believe that God’s command to do something necessarily implies the ability to do it?

If not, there is no contradiction in the two statements you put in opposition. On the one hand, God chooses some out of the mass of condemned humanity to save while passing over or by the others; on the other hand, he commands all men, elect and reprobate, to respond to Christ in the gospel as their duty to their sovereign Lord.


68. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 29, 2007
9:26 PM

If God is all-knowing (and He is), and if John’s position is correct about his assertion of contradiction, then it would also follow that it is a contradiction for God to commission us to go into all the world with the outward call of the gospel, when He knows full well the ones who are going respond and be saved, and He knows ahead of time the ones He has granted to come and the ones He has not.

My point is that - in agreement with Ken - the reality that God commands something does NOT automatically imply that the one commanded has the ability to do it.

Augustine’s prayer is right on point:

“Lord, command whatever thou wouldst…and grant whatever thou dost command.”


69. Ken
June 29, 2007
9:48 PM

Piggy-backing on Brian’s comment—it was precisely on the point of man’s ability to obey all God’s commands that Pelagius objected to Augustine’s prayer quoted above.


70. WM
June 29, 2007
11:56 PM

John K,

It is interesting to me that you place such an emphasis in the sovereignty of man. As if in not allowing for the full intention of a man’s effort to secure salvation, somehow impunes the Holiness and Rigtheousness of our God’s desire to save…..yes, freewill trumps His plan of salvation. This too was a major stumbling block in my “Modern Evangelical” upbringing. Good ole rugged American Individualism must be given its recognition and resultant outcome.

Part of the problem is that we do not have an understanding of the Greek language. The Reformers did have just such an understanding, established through a rigorous study (and expressed in their commentaries)of the word in the original language….and of course, made real as to it’s correct understanding by the work of the Holy Spirit’s confirmation in the hearts of believers down through the ages.

In the final analysis, as I came to recognize it myself was that, it was, it is, and will continue to be God’s Grace that is manifested to ensure he has a people for Himself who will love and serve him because of the totality of the work that he has done for them.


71. matthew lipscomb
June 30, 2007
12:10 AM

Rarely does anyone respond to something I say about this issue, one which Tim likes to always bring up; as its is sure to spark a good discussion and lightup the blogrolls…I am altogether unsure if I am generally considered a “troll” here - therefore just ignored - or if my comments are either so scattered and dumb that they are not worth responding to - or - that they might actually be rarely brilliant. If I had to guess, I’m on the dull side, as I admittantly have a tremendous amount to still learn and the more I learn the less I understand - as the song goes; all the things I thought I knew I have to learn again.

I wince everytime I hear somebody make eloquent statements extolling double predestination or saying that they know what a hyper-calvinist is, but that they surely aren’t one themselves. Generally - most such arguments seem to me to be boarderline sophistic and functionally evasive.

Personally - I stop just short of calling John Calvin a heretic, thought I am leaning more and more towards making that a clear distinction, thought it is sure to hastily make any armchair theologian/self-professed calvinism defendor readily ashen faced at the mere mention of the word. As I have said before - I have openly speculated that he may well have taken up the mantle/legacy of Nestorious in the Nestorius/Constantinus debate regarding the nature of Christ - as Tillich posited, except with Calvin - the issue being the Soverignty of God. Tillich said that Nestorious was a heresy hunter himself and went too far and became an inadvertent heretic himself. In logic we know that there is “the law of the exluded middle” - but I believe that there is “the law of the exluded boundaries;” which is to say that you may not be able to define what the center is, but you can define the state of being “beyond the boundaries” of something as clearly being heretical; in other words I cannot allways explain how the center is right, only that beyond the sides of it - is to be wrong. This is my position on the whole soverignty of God/will of man issue. I have spent alot of time listening to calvinian theology - and I am all the more stronger for it - but it also reinforces my conviction that as Dogmatic as I want to be (I hate postmodernisms intrinsic jello-like inablity to believe anything and instead substite “experience” for doctrine) I have to release somethings back into mysteries and out of the clutches of my carnally-tainted reason. You can banter all you want back and forth and argue with one hand that God does not send anybody to hell and talk out of your other that he does, but the truth is that double-predestinationists have an anthromorphologically-influenced sotereologic assumption: that free will impugns or abdicates soverignty. It does not. As Tozer said - IT AFFIRMS IT. Furthermore - God does play favorites; but Calvinists who declair themselves “favorited” or “elected” or whatever term you wish, put themsleves in danger of hellfire to write off those who might just be called to be common laborours in the kingdom. If you are “special” or elected, or called to specific purpose that is fine; and yes, it is not fair to others - but spiritual reality is not fair; others might be able to play spiritual pattycake but you cannot - you have been given alot more and alot more is going to be required of you, but how dare you exalt yourself above others out there and just write them off as hopelessly uninlightenended because they have no “election ” like yours. That is Gnosticism and it’s “exclusivistic enlighment notion”; which Calvism may well be merely a deceptive reinterpretation of: You should be compelled to pray for the lost and dying with all due expediency. The issue is that there is a spiritual war going on; and you’ve got to wrestle with spiritual forces to reach the lost.

The truth is that all of us who have been called to the Supper of the Lamb were beggars on the streets; the “elect” had better things to do (see Luke) and instead the Master sent for the “unelected” the beggars and street urchins to come in and sup.

God is calling those whom he has special purpose for and has given special purpose to others and not those who refused it initially. Luke speaks against “irrististable grace” in these terms; those who were invited made a decision not to come. Period. Peter echoes this -when he says to do these things “so that your election will be sure”

All this theological gymnastics that says that when the scripture speaks of the elect and says that their act of resistance to what they were called to do ‘is not really resisting’; it reminds me of Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses trying to get around the truth. Luke 14:18 “and they all with one consent began to make excuse” I am yet to ever hear a 5 point Calvinist who thinks that those who are Elected cannot resist their Election: resolve how Christ clearly says that none of those who were bid to the supper shall eat of it in Luke. They Refused. You need to theologically deal with this reality and stop making excuses as to why this is not how the kingdom of God really operates; that what it says is not what it really means. Double predesistination says that those who did not come to the supper - on some higher supralapsarian level;that the scripture just seems to ‘inadverntently leave out’ - really had no choice to either go or make excuse. They did. They decided they had better things to do. You can be called to purpose and ignore it. The truth is that all of us who are called into ministry, more then likely - someone else was elected/called and they decided to do otherwise. Limited Atonement/Irristiable Grace makes a mockery of Luke 14 and turns it on it’s head - it essentially presents Christ as ultimately a sophistic teacher: that is to say - he is teaching things that he knows are ultimately wrong and deceptive, and pointing you in the wrong direction theologically. Let God be true and every man a liar - be he an Arminian who does not understand Soverignty or a Calvinst who does not understand Free Will.

I have no doubt that there are individuals who God elected and called, but they are so self absorbed and prideful that they are virtually useless to the kingdom of God. What God wanted to do with those people He rather called those who would have otherwise never had that calling upon them.

Calvinists need to study the imperitive implications of Free Will; just like Arminiams need to continually study God’s Soverignty; and they need to constantly and prayerfully make sure that they don’t go bounding out into the outfields of heretical oblivion. That is the best advice you can get.

I am sorry if this sounds ugly or mean. Sometimes I feel like I am dealing with alot of frustration with this issue as I have been meditating on it for awhile. I feel like I am called to teach and I have a conviction that I am not worthy to teach or persuade anyone of The truth of the Gospel until I have wept over them and, if the case be so, their ignorance and/or deception. I have a thrist for truth. Please pardon me if I do not always chose the softest of words.

I have a very strong conviction that there is a strong need for reformation within the “Reformed” church. The question -what side are you guys going to be on when it hits?

Respectfully Submitted,

-matthew


72. John K
June 30, 2007
12:26 AM

Read the verse again. Jesus equates the raising up w/the drawing, and the coming with the drawing. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Seems pretty plain to me. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. All who come will be raised up on the last day. There is no indication from the text that there are those who are drawn but who do not come. Argument from silence. Not convincing at all. Would you also say that there are some to whom the Father has granted to come, but who do not?Yes. God grants, or ">http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1325&Version=kjv”> permits (definition #4), people to come. He does not force them. If so, then why would this statement have offended so many (who then were no longer walking with Jesus)? Verse 66 (many turning back) refers back to verse 60 (This is a hard teaching), which in turn refers, I believe, to Jesus talk of eating his body and drinking his blood (53-59). Not because Jesus was teaching Calvinist views on election. How does a heart of stone seek God?I imagine the same way a camel can pass through the eye of a needle, which is the analogy Jesus used in connection with the very subject we are discussing: Who can enter the kingdom of God. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” With God all things are possible. Would you agree that - from verse 65 (He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”) there are some who are NOT granted to come? What is one to do to whom is has NOT been granted? Not at all. You are going beyond what is written.

Take Care


73. John K
June 30, 2007
12:45 AM

I’m afraid my previous post turned out to be a bit of a mess. I’m not quite familiar enough with all the technicalities. I’ll try better here

“John K: By way of attempting to satisfy you as to your question in #19, may I ask if you believe that God’s command to do something necessarily implies the ability to do it?”>/i>

I guess I will rely on Augustine’s prayer, quoted by Brian. I believe if God commands something, he will grant the ability to do it.

The exception that comes immediately to mind, of course, is the ability to live sinlessly, which He commands, but which we cannot do, even with His help in the Person of the Holy Spirit. But in that case He has again provided us an escape, through the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, who lived such a life on our behalf. In other words, to answer your question, I believe He will either give us the ability to do it or He will do it for us.

Quoted by WM:

It is interesting to me that you place such an emphasis in the sovereignty of man.

That is a gross assumption and mis-accusation on your part. Where have I ever given man sovereignty? God sovereignly allowing mankind freewill and inviting him to choose and to seek Him cannot be construed as “sovereignty of man.”

Take Care


74. John K
June 30, 2007
1:32 AM

One more thing:

WM, I’m sorry if I was short with you above. Just for the record I will makehe following statements before I go to bed. I hope they will clarify where I stand, and I hope and believe that nothing I have posted here in any way contradicts what I am about to say.

By the way, I will be on the road all day tomorrow, so this will be it for me for a couple of days.

But for the record I believe: 1. God is completely sovereign in all things. There is nothing that is outside His will. Nothing happens in all creation that He does not either cause or allow.

  1. God is omniscient. Nothing has happened, or will, that He does not know about and has not known about since before the creation of the universe.

  2. The Bible is the inspired word of God. It is 100% God-breathed, inerrant and without internal contradiction.

Take Care


75. matthew lipscomb
June 30, 2007
5:38 AM

Dear John K.

Point 1: Innerancy is a scientific term. It is not a spiritual term. You need to do a serious study on Natural Theology. Inerrancy does not save your soul - the Authority of the Word is what does this. I might theorectically locate an innerrant-from-the-original copy of Plato’s Republic but it has absolutely no bearing on where you or I will spend eternity. You weaken the authority of God when you go about the business of building an argument for why we should believe the scripture. If you want to use it as a tool -that is fine. Unfortunately, when we beleive that we have to offer some form of crafty argument so that we can then expect someone to believe, we subvert the natural inherent self-authentication of the scripture. Take some time and mediate on the idea of what Sola Fide/sola scriptura means; faith alone/scripture alone - the proper response to the initiation/election of God is faith - not reason or an argument. This is extreemly basic but extreemly lost in much of modern evangelicalism. I love to argue from the supposed strength of the innerrancy argument -but it is illusory; but I beleive that you would join me if you thought it through. The scripture must assert itself - not us. Preach the Gospel and the authority thereof - let no man draw you into crafty converstation of 100 percent this or 99.98 percent that. It matters to the lost - but not to those who have heard His voice and genuinely responded to Him.

Point Two: For the Umpteenth time, I will repeat the following. It is a heretical Pelagian statement to say that any man can respond to Christ from his own capacity. This is widely known as thus and disavowed by knowledgeable Arminians. Hearing Calvinist endlessly beat this horse reminds me of Seventh Day Adventists who are sent to Sabbath School for years and years and years where they basically are not really taught about the Sabbath; they are just taught how to defend their near heretical views (for the record, I am in the Dr. Walter Martin viewpoint on them —->they are a sect, not a cult) If no one as told you this, or if you have not heard it, or you have not been listening, then please hear me - nearly all Arminians do not believe that. A consistant proclimation that we do is purposeful self-deciet and theological war drum banging. You are rallying the troops, and meanwhile your Arminian breathern look at you with great concern in regards to how you can continue to think we think things we do not. I hear that all the time here and it is gratuitous back slapping.

The Arminian view is that we are fully enabled to make the choice, but we can still rescind it.

Point Three: Your assertion that God must have absolute control to be soverign is a Soteriological Anthromorphism; you are asserting your own mortal power/authorty dynamics upon the Divine. This is a Reverse Condescension; wherein you force God to bend to your apprehension/personal ideological-epistimolgical frameworks, whereas God condescends Himself to be understood by you -but not vice versa.

Respectfully Submitted

-matthew lipscomb


76. EG
June 30, 2007
8:41 AM

Brother Lipscomb: Let God be true and every man a liar - be he an Arminian who does not understand Soverignty or a Calvinst who does not understand Free Will.

Indeed, and a wonderful post otherwise. That is why I refuse to shackle myself to the theology of either side of this debate. To do so leads one into some pretty sketchy territory.

The Scriptures clearly teach both God’s sovereignty and man’s free will - both in the complete sense, not some explained-away sense as both “sides” are wont to do.

As such, I believe both. Wesley’s idea of prevenient grace may be a way to explain it. But, even if that is not “it”, the truth of both is still there in Scriptures, and it is time to stop fussing from one distinct (and flawed) position or another to the exclusion of just getting on with the work of His Kingdom.


77. Ken
June 30, 2007
10:03 AM

John K: When man’s free will bumps up against God’s free will, who wins?

Matthew: You ask why your posts here seem to be ignored. I submit that part of it has to do with a tone of condescension that is probably unconsciously communicated and part of it is the evident hostility you bear toward Calvin and classical Reformed theology as you interpret it. Do you honestly expect to come here on a self-appointed mission and make converts? Face facts—the proprietor of this blog is a bright young Calvinist who possesses a winsome writing style. It attracts the like-minded who appreciate his work.

One other thing—while you’re obviously very intelligent and well-read, your posts are long, wordy, and occasionally turgid with technical language. People’s eyes glaze over. Try paring things down a bit.


78. Ken
June 30, 2007
10:05 AM

EG: Would you please provide your definition of free will? I find doing so helps immensely in carrying on the conversation.


79. Jabbok
June 30, 2007
10:31 AM

Being “Bidden” to the supper to eat (Luke 14) shouldn’t be understood as being “Elected” to enter the Kingdom. Mr. Lipscomb seems to ignore the distinction between a general call and an effectual call, which are necessary considerations for a clear understanding of Irresistible Grace.

Also, no discussion on “Free-will” is complete without exploring the Federal Headship of Adam.

Carry On! :)


80. EG
June 30, 2007
10:48 AM

Sure. Man has the ability to choose good or evil - and thus to believe or not to. God, in His sovereignty, gave Man that ability, and thus, such an ability does not negate sovereignty or grace as the ability is by God’s grace.

Both sovereign grace and man’s free ability to make choices are quite obvious in Scripture. To extol one at the expense of the other is a grave error and leads to all kinds of heresy.

…in a very very brief nutshell.


81. Jabbok
June 30, 2007
11:15 AM

EG,

Why do you say that man has the ability to choose good or evil? What is the basis for your thinking this? I would agree that he has the responsibility to do so but not the ability.

God’s universal commands to “Choose” do not imply ability. After all, He gave us ten commandments and we’re not able to keep them. Would He have given us these ten commandments while knowing that we lacked the ability to keep them? Apparently so, He did. The imperatives of Scripture teach us something of God’s character. He commands us to “Choose” because He is gracious and good and He is not the one making it impossible for us to do so.


82. EG
June 30, 2007
12:57 PM

There are enough instances throughout scripture, and in life in general, of people expressing free will to do both good and evil to enumerate.

Basically, the doctrine of prevenient grace seems, to me, to be of use here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_Grace


83. Joop
June 30, 2007
1:34 PM

To Ken #77

I will be honest with you, I find your post towards Matthew quite arrogant. Especially the words like:

“Do you honestly expect to come here on a self-appointed mission and make converts?”

I think everybody on this blog a right to express his/her opinion, weather it is to support Calvinism or not, as long as we can respect our opinions. Please choose to agree on some disagreements here. And a disagreement doesn’t always mean a hostility. Your last remark to Matthew, though, was much more thoughtful and could be an advice for many of us too.

God bless, Joop


84. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 30, 2007
1:44 PM

Prevenient grace is no grace at all.

We are not saved by prevenient grace. Prevenient grace has no power to do anything. The theology of prevenient grace is, I am most confident, an offense to our great God.

Did Esau receive prevenient grace? Did Pharaoh receive it? Did Judas?

How about those to whom it has not been granted from the Father to come to Christ…have they received it? It seems to me that, under prevenient grace - it would be given to all to come to Christ…yet Jesus is clear that there are some to whom it has NOT been granted? Why is that?


85. Joop
June 30, 2007
2:10 PM

To Brian (about prevenient grace).

First, I myself am not familiar with the expression ‘prevenient grace’. But I will not argue here wether or not ‘prevenient grace’ is biblical. After all, worlds like ‘original sin’ and ‘trinity’ can’t be found in the bible either! Now looking at Judas (I’ll skip Faraoh and Esau avoiding writing down too many words)”: did Judas receive (prevenient) grace? I believe so. For you see, Judas was elected as both an apostle and a disciple. Being an apostle is not something YOU can choose. Rather, you have to be chosen to. However, to become a disciple, YOU have to do something as well. Like giving up everything (Lk 14:33). So that would mean that Judas was (once) truly saved! Grace was given to him (wether prevenient or not). Jesus did not just pick up any man to become an apostle and a disciple. However, Judas fell away and went astray (Acts 1:25). Your question should be: why did Judas fall (from grace)?

God bless, Joop


86. donsands
June 30, 2007
3:19 PM

“For you see, Judas was elected as both an apostle and a disciple.”

Amen.

And he was the “son of perdition”. Jesus said it would have better if had never been born. He was born for destruction. Hard to swallow this truth, But it is there to be pondered with deep thoughts. There’s no self-righteousness in thinking about this, because if not for the grace of God, and His quickening me from the dead state I was in, I would have been better off never having been born.

But God with His great love, showed mercy. Thank you Lord.


87. Ken
June 30, 2007
9:46 PM

Sorry, Joop (#83), but I wasn’t talking to you. Matthew had asked why he received so little response to his posts. I gave him an answer from my perspective—including the impression that he visits and comments here mostly to criticize the Calvinism of this blog’s host and that the tone he uses is more than a little off-putting.

If Matthew is offended, he may take it up with me.


88. matthew lipscomb
June 30, 2007
9:53 PM

Ken/Joop/others,

No offense taken, and I appreciate the kind words from EG and others; I understand that I have a potentially self-limiting aggressive nature that potentially serves as a hinderance in conversation. I have done alot of thinking about “my tendencies” and have generally felt like this is a part of my “created nature” and like everything else I have to make it a point to assume that while I am a fallen creature; not everything readily apprehendable as being bad might be so when baptised into kingdom purpose in the life of someone called. I have struggled with a contentious nature - but over the last few years have come to see that God might use that part of me to affect some good, if I can allow Him to guide me and use it effectively. It’s the whole “power is nothing without control” idom; and I have lots of ‘power’ and need to learn how to apply it constructively. Over the last year I have begun the process of responding to what I think is a call to teach on my life. I work hard to keep the energy level down; but I don’t always do a good job - and invariable ruffle feathers, but that’s not always exclusively a bad thing either.

Long Posts: I am sure that I am not quite as fast as Tim “lightning fingers” Challies - but I am definitely time constrained most times I respond here. I usually wind up doing it at work, so I try not to spend more then 5 minutes on a response; it’s the whole “sorry, I did not have time to write a short email” thing.

Another point - and this is perhaps the gist of what I want my post to be about: I have written some in some posts here regarding what I consider a worthy theological method, and that is the analysis of any body of doctrinal formulation from within the deconstructive analytic of dereactionism; or an apprehension of a process both apart from and under the influences of Reactionary Forces. 95% of the time we do not consider the overall governing dynamics that proded either forcefully or casually the formulation or engagement of ideas/reactionary tactics. In medicine; within the realm of trauma care, there is the idea of a “coo” and “counter-coo” force; if you hit your head on the dashboard of your car in a high-speed impact that is the “coo” force - but the reactionary force to that “coo” is the “counter-coo” force of your brain slamming into your cranium. This is where blood vessles are torn, brain tissue is turned into scrambled eggs, and nerves shredded. Not to be morbid, but a “coo” trauma is what you see in the movies, the damage from a “counter-coo” force is what real world health professionals fear more, it is the individual who rolls in with absolutely no mark on them but is the process of massively hemoraging internally from externally unseen injuries.

These same principles make their mark in the theological/ideolgical/philosophics playground. You cannot fully understand Calvin unless you know what he was reacting against (Pelagianism) or Luther (Catholicism), Postmodernism (modernism), Modernism (Classicism/Mythology), Feminism (abusive partriacalism), Prohibition (societal alcohol abuse), Warfieldian Cessationism (Abuses of Early Pentecostal Outpourings), so called “postcolonial reconstructionism” (assumed western capitalistic abuses) etc. The list goes on and on and on. So when I am studying Calvinism, I am doing it not just from the standpoint of deconstructing and reevaluting the responses to either postive or negative forces, I am also valuating whether the response was postive/negative.

A great example of this - and it dovetails with issues brought up in the previous conversations is that Calvin did not make an issue of “Innerancy” as most scholars, such as Alister McGrath conclude, based on his notion of the Condescension/Accomodation of God to Man principle, though it is not universally accepted as such - the larger number of theologians do aggree. It is not something that a “Classical Man” like Calvin would have really worried about - as he would not be confronted with Modernism’s rush to statistically/scientifically prove anything worth beleiveing. To bring this issue together with my long rambling statement regarding “Reactionary Forces” - Innerancy is a Counter-Coo or Resultant byproduct of the Reactionary Force of Modernism upon Classical Theology. Modernist feel like we have to be able to prove everything and in effect, we don’t realize that the Gospel is not a Modern Assertion; it is neither a Classical nor Postmodern one either - no matter how much any Cultural Reactionary Epoch denizen would want to control or say that it is entirely theirs - it is not. To me a truly astute theological student must practice transcendence in regards to both Cultural (soceital expectations/behaviors) and Cultral Epochal periods (classicism/mod/post).

So in a Nutshell, when I study Calvinism (and I think that everybody should strive to do this as well) I approach it as a mortally-assembled body of theological thought and I beat it around - not just to see the postive/negative reactionary forces that have influenced/spawned it, but to learn from those postive/negative things about it.

That is why I have a huge problem with starry-eyed theological students who just accept everything about something because everybody else always has. That is why there was a Reformation to begin with - and that is why there is - I beleive - another one soon to come. I think Calvinism has tremendous potential to impact the body of Christ for present and future generations, because of any number of issues that it is intrinsically about, such as The Soverignty of God. But that wil never happen if Students/Teachers/Theologians cannot accept that there may be problems in the way that it has been generationally taught and accepted. I am not so sure that there is not a huge differnce between Calvin and “Calvinism” - this is something that I am continuing to study. This is why repentance and humilty are absolutely postively central and paramount to any theologian/teacher/student. The power that is unleashed in saying “I was wrong” means that you now know that you may well be now right about something and that is a step forward. Theological systems that abstain from concerted theological inflection limit themselves; they just become obtuse shadows that serve only to endlessly reproduce themselves. Maybe I’m a Neo-Calvinist in the regards that I’m taking the “good reactions” of Calvinism and eliminating the Nestorian tendency of over-reactionism or negative reactionary forces; which to me, for “Calvinism” as it is taught today - is a total disregard for Free Will. But you have to ask yourself - all these people in the Calvinian Blogsphere- if suddenly the Pelagian Boogyman of Armianinsism suddenly went away - would there be anything left to talk about? And is that a problem itself? Is Modern day Calvism just a roaming sophistic argument just waiting to happen, one that is meaningless and silly to those who understand Soverignty AND Free Will? And if that is so - then can Calvism really in an authentic sense respond to the postmodernist washout of individuals who have reacted against so much they now know they either have Nihilism or or a resemblance of a Systematic Theology to embrace? If Calvinsim just endlessly presents arguments that are ultimately meaningless to those who can accept mystery, it shoots itself in the foot and merely just takes it’s place among other historically entrenched theological systems that are bankrupt because they never audited themselves, they never reformed themselvse in an ONGOING BASIS. The principle of Reformed Theology should not be that ‘we once did that’ because that this the source point for almost everybodies system - the issue is that we should be Reforming Now.

Those of you who are agast at that idea, I am sure that you do have MEGO at my ramblings here (my eyes glaze over) but I am writing for those who are eager for a reformation. Besides, I have my own book/journal (1300 pages) to satisfy a craving for writing - I don’t do this for that.

And no - I’m not looking for “converts” to my system; if I can be understood to have a system. I am trying to advance the theological conversation and provoke introspection and analyis. The abdication of Pride is an intrinsic part of this; and it is something that any regenerate child of God should rejoice in the honor and pleasure thereof and therein.

Respectfully Submitted,

matthew lipscomb


89. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
June 30, 2007
10:14 PM

I am not “agast” at the idea of always reforming (that doesn’t mean truth changes over time, though)…but my eyes still glazing over anyway.

This is the one that really made my head hurt:

the analysis of any body of doctrinal formulation from within the deconstructive analytic of dereactionism; or an apprehension of a process both apart from and under the influences of Reactionary Forces.

huh???

Too many multi-syllable words for me…


90. John K
June 30, 2007
11:30 PM

Ken: When man’s free will bumps up against God’s free will, who wins?

I really have no idea wht you mean by this.

EG: Man has the ability to choose good or evil - and thus to believe or not to.

Apart from God, man cannot choose good. Even deeds that the world would consider “good” are as filthy rags.

Nor can man choose to believe. Saving faith comes only from God, given to those who seek.

What man can choose to do is to seek or to ignore. I believe he can choose to turn toward the light or away from it. But salvation itself is not a human choice. That comes only from God.

Take Care


91. Aaron
June 30, 2007
11:41 PM

Matthew Lipscomb:

While you may consider this too simplistic, the issue really comes down to the final “cause” of salvation. If God is the terminal cause, then salvation is totally of grace. If man, then salvation is of works. People can say the same thing and mean something different. I know people who say they are saved totally by grace, but when it gets down to it, they are not willing to give up on their own ability and so are really trusting in themselves. As you consider these things I would strongly recommend reading Martin Luther’s “Bondage of the Will”, which he thought was his most important theological work, as well as Jonathan Edward’s “On the Freedom of the Will.”

From Luther: “But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realises that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone.”

It seems that today’s Arminians are generally more like Pelagians. The more historic Wesleyan Arminianism at least asserted the need for some sort of grace for man to act. But when it comes down to it, salvation is still ultimately up to man and not totally of the grace & mercy of God as is so often stated in scr