June 19 marked the beginning of Toronto’s annual Pride Week. Now in its 28th year, this is a week-long celebration of diverse sexual and gender identities. Here is how the organizers describe it: “Pride Week celebrates our diverse sexual and gender identities, histories, cultures, creativities, families, friends and lives. It includes a three-day street festival with over eight stages of live entertainment, an extensive street fair (including community booths, vendors, food stalls), a special Family Pride program, a politically charged Dyke March and the infamous Pride Parade.”
My friend John Bell pastors New City Baptist Church right in the heart of Toronto and has an active evangelistic ministry within Toronto’s gay village. I asked him if he would write an article reflecting on some of the joys and challenges in this unique ministry.
*****
It is Gay Pride week here in Toronto and Tim has asked me to write a guest post detailing my evangelistic efforts in Toronto’s LGBT-oriented community [LGBT stands for Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender). I would appreciate any helpful insights or criticisms the readers of this blog can offer me, as well as your prayers.
I began this ministry two years ago while working as an intern in a downtown Toronto church. I was told that part of my internship duties would involve three hours of evangelism every week in a coffee shop or pub. This was not happy news. To be honest, I find this kind of evangelism very intimidating. “Cold call” is not my style; I’m too polite! As the pastor explained what he expected of me, a likely scenario played itself out in my mind: I approach somebody at Starbucks who is reading a book and drinking a latte. I introduce myself and ask if I may sit with them and talk. Naturally, they want to know my business, so I straightaway introduce the topic of religion or Jesus, probably sounding like the Mormons who came to their door the previous week while they were eating dinner.
Personally (and God uses all types, so I’m not making an absolute statement) I find this kind of evangelistic tactic less than ideal. I don’t know anything about this person, yet I have just interrupted their morning coffee to talk about what I want to discuss. I wanted my evangelism to get off on a better foot, to be more natural; I wanted to initiate the discussion in a way that was neither “rude” nor by way of a specious pretext (conducting a poll on spirituality, etc). Moreover, if I asked to sit and speak with a woman, she might think I was hitting on her. Of course living where I do, a man might think the same thing. Better to take the bull by the horns, I thought. I had never been to a gay coffee shop before but I thought (correctly) that gay men would want a complete stranger to sit with them and chit-chat, so that’s what I decided to do.
Toronto’s gay village is just a ten minute walk from where I live. The first time I ventured out, I prayed to the Lord that he would show me where to go and what to do and what to say. I was very nervous. I had no plan. I was certain I was going to see all manner of disgusting things and that I was going to be thrown bodily out of the establishment for disseminating fundamentalist hate. But I had to tell my pastor that I had evangelized for three hours that week, so I was stuck.
The Lord went ahead of me. I stepped into the first coffee shop I saw, a Timothy’s at Church and Alexander. I found out later that this is the gay coffee shop in all of the Greater Toronto Area. (See the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_Wellesley). Its clientele is mostly middle-aged men. I bought my coffee and looked around for a place to sit. The tables are very small and the seats are close together—perfect for evangelism, though I’m sure that was not the original intent!
The gay community in Toronto is very close-knit. Most of the men have known each other for years and everyone is on a first name basis. Many men are fixtures at this coffee shop. I have become friends with four of these fixtures: A—- , who has severe cerebral palsy that confines him to a wheel chair (that does not impede his sex life, however; he told me he’s had hundreds of partners); D—- , an HIV infected drag queen who was molested by a Catholic priest; J—- , a civil servant, recently relocated from Ottawa; and C—- , who works in the credit department of a national bank. These men have accepted me as their friend and have introduced me to other gay men, although they know I’m a straight, born again conservative Christian who does not condone their lifestyle.
I have talked to quite a number of gay men now—almost all of them white and middle aged. Many of them came out of the closet after having been married with kids. For whatever reason, 85% have come from Catholic backgrounds. That means that much of my evangelistic groundwork has already been covered. There is no need to explain that the bible has two testaments, or who Moses or Abraham were, or convince them of the historic factuality of the resurrection; for the most part, they believe it. I’m finding it’s the authority of scripture that I need to deal with the most.
When I first meet someone at the coffee shop and they ask me what I do (which is a natural “in” to introducing the gospel) they assume that I must be a liberal gay Baptist minister, because otherwise what would I be doing in their coffee shop? (The first man I talked to had only just broken up with his boyfriend, a Methodist pastor.) I begin by asking them questions. I get them to do all the talking for the next 45 minutes. I ask them about their job, their background, their family life, their personal life and what they believe and why so I can get a picture of their epistemology and worldview. Needless to say, I frame my questions in an inquisitive, slightly naive, polite fashion, not in an interrogative, formal way. Gay men love to talk (at least the ones in this coffee shop seem to) and people in general today enjoy discussing “spirituality”. Then, out of politeness, they will inevitably ask me what I believe. So I tell them the gospel, starting with Genesis 1, laying out for them the biblical storyline and worldview.
I have been able to share the gospel with many men over the past two years, even though I am saying things highly offensive to the gay lifestyle—which is actually their identity. I base everything I say on the authority of the word; that is, I make it clear to them that that is what I am doing, that I believe the bible is authoritative for all peoples in all cultures and times because it is God’s authoritative revelation to human beings. I stress this emphatically. And I tell them that the Bible condemns me, it condemns everyone. It condemns me as an idolater, someone who is selfish and sinful, who has de-godded God and installed himself in the position of “The Ruler of John’s Life.” I have done things in my life that I am ashamed of and oftentimes what I am ashamed of the bible calls my “sin” (I have found that gay men can relate very well to shame). I do not zero in on their homosexuality (which is what they expect me to do) but rather the fact that they are sinners. Now, more often than not, they will push me and ask if practicing homosexuality is a particular expression of their sinful disposition and I will not hesitate to tell them “yes.” When asked, I tell gay men that, personally, I have a “live and let live” approach to everyone’s sex life, but my personal opinion doesn’t count for anything if God, our creator, has declared otherwise. I tell them I know that I am sounding very intolerant and bigoted when I tell them that they are sinners and that their lifestyle is not pleasing to God. Who am I to tell another human being such a thing on my own authority? But then I explain that it is not on my own authority that I am saying these things. Rightly or wrongly, I am utterly convinced that the bible is the revelation of God. I am banking my eternal soul on it being so. It condemns me, but I have found salvation in Christ. It condemns you. I am here to tell you about the salvation that I have found in Jesus, that I believe you need, that the bible says he needs.
By presenting the gospel in this fashion (which is the same way I present it to heterosexuals) I have yet to have someone become outraged over my perceived intolerance—though I am sure that day is coming! In fact, being straight and conservative has worked in my favor because they see that I must really care about them to come into an environment where I’m a fish out of water to tell them a message that I know they will find offensive. And I do really care for them. Many of them come from backgrounds where they would have believed something similar to what I believe about the authority of God’s word, from a Catholic perspective, but have since “moved on.” Perhaps I am young and deluded in their opinion, but I’m a nice guy and they put up with it, because they can see that I love them, and often times they will say, “We will hear you again on this matter”. They like the fact that I am willing to be their friend, even if I don’t condone their beliefs. I think that shows an integrity and respect; they respond to it and are willing to reciprocate.
I do all this because I love the LGBT community. They are a community comprised of individual eternal souls. Sadly, they are culture that has almost no contact with biblical Christianity in any form. How many drag queens can count a born again Christian amongst their friends? Very few, to our shame.
I’m the pastor of a new church plant in downtown Toronto and it is my earnest prayer that God would use our people to impact this spiritually needy community. I pray for the day when transvestites can walk through our church doors and be greeted with genuinely warm smiles and Christian love. But before that day is likely to happen, they will need a Christian friend whom they have grown to trust; a person they know would never invite them to a place where they are going to be hurt or embarrassed publicly; a place where everyone is on level ground before the cross of Christ because all are sinners; a place where no one person’s sin is made out to be more repugnant than another’s; a place where all sinners can sit under the uncompromised preaching of holy Scripture and hear of the world’s only Savior and salvation in his name alone.
I pray that we would be more deliberate in this regard; that as God’s sovereign grace works through his faithful witness, the church, we would see more gay men and women come to Christ.



Comments (83) »
1. Jim Vellenga
June 24, 2009
9:08 AM
Thank-you for this guest post. It was very informative and helpful.
2. Annette
June 24, 2009
9:14 AM
well-written, appreciated it.
3. Dave Theobald
June 24, 2009
9:15 AM
Thanks for posting this John. I am praying that the Lord will bless your incredibly important work. One question… do you only visit with these friends in the coffee shop or do you get together and hang out with them outside of that context?
4. Andy
June 24, 2009
9:17 AM
I applaud the way you go about presenting the gospel - not targeting their homosexuality in particular, but rather the fact that we are all lost in our sin and in desperate need of Christ. This is the same humble attitude that Paul takes in 1 Tim 1:15, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.”
I was watching some of the live streaming of the Southern Baptist shindig in Louisville yesterday, and there was a video segment focusing on a church in TX that is on a mission to specifically reach those who struggle with same-sex attractions. I am thankful that churches and ministries are finally making such an organized effort to reach such an under-reached segment of the population.
Blessed are the feet of those who bring good news!
5. Ginny
June 24, 2009
9:18 AM
Thank you for this post. It was good confirmation for me. I just came back from a family reunion where I finally met the lesbian partner of my cousin. They have been together for many years. I had forgotten that I might meet her and was caught a little off guard, which I think worked out best since I didn’t have time to get nervous. As soon as she was introduced to me, I greeted her warmly, gave her a hug, and took their picture, as I had been doing with everyone else who entered the room. Later I just sat and talked to her. No one brought up the issue of sexuality. They already know I am a conservative Christian and were probably expecting me to be unfriendly. I share the gospel regularly with all of my relatives via a family e-mail letter, so I didn’t feel the need to start preaching there, especially since we were at a family celebration. I just wanted to show them that I love them and treat them with dignity. I think that will make them even more responsive to what I might share about Jesus in the future. A few years ago, my husband and I watched the movie Hidden Secrets (an excellent drama about grace, in which one of the characters is gay) and I think that helped prepare me.
6. Truth Unites... and Divides
June 24, 2009
9:26 AM
I like the fact that John Bell did not compromise the Word and he did not take away the offense of the Cross in his Gospel presentation.
It would be interesting to know if any of the men and women he’s ministered to has come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ and has repented of the sin of same-sex behavior.
7. Kees
June 24, 2009
9:59 AM
Good article!
8. Andrew Comings
June 24, 2009
10:06 AM
I was witnessing to a young man here in Brazil, and in the course of our conversation he told me—quite defensively—that he was gay. I told him that, even though I am not gay, we are the same in the sight of God, as we are both terrible sinners. He was obviously not expecting that response, and it resulted in a long conversation where he heard the Gospel several times.
I think you are right on in your approach, and will pray that you may see fruit in your ministry.
9. Andrew Faris
June 24, 2009
10:11 AM
Great, great stuff Tim and John. Thanks so much. Sounds like evangelism to homosexuals is a lot like evangelism to heterosexuals - that is, sounds like evangelism to sinners.
Andrew
10. jackie
June 24, 2009
10:28 AM
This guest post was superb! The comments were great too.
11. Socorro Alaniz
June 24, 2009
10:28 AM
A much needed article… the line “They are a community comprised of individual eternal souls” is very convicting. I tend to see this community as being overtly hostile and aggressive, particularly in the things of the Lord.
Thank you for your perspective.
12. Casey
June 24, 2009
10:30 AM
John curious what you would make of the following statement in the context of speaking to a homosexual male. Does it play too much on the male to male perversion?
“Jesus is the only man you can fully embrace in all hopes that he will accept you and never forsake you. In fact, he is the only man, because he is God, who fully embraces us in the holiest pure way possible.”
I write the above statement because often times it seems that under the homosexual behavior is a deeper form of idolatry (the idol of relationships, the idol of control, etc.) That being said, could we not present Christ in such a way that he replaces the idol under the homosexuality, therefore giving them an opportunity to rethink why they are practicing homosexuality in the first place.
Hope this all makes. Great post by the way.
13. Jake
June 24, 2009
10:37 AM
What an encouraging article and great testimony. God, give us a heart like John’s, and a willingness to be uncomfortable for the sake of the Gospel and the lost.
14. Brian
June 24, 2009
10:59 AM
One of the core values at the church I attend is “Every soul matters to God.” John is an example of living out that value.
15. Matt H
June 24, 2009
11:09 AM
Amen. Great article. It disturbs me greatly how so many conservative Christians treat people from the LGBT community as if they’re some form of super-sinner — to be shunned, hated, and avoided at all costs. The reality is that we’re just as deserving of death, and the only thing separating us from eternal death is our Savior.
Thanks for sharing this!
16. Brian
June 24, 2009
11:13 AM
awesome post, thanks for your work, John. I found it to be very motivating and encouraging. I am praying for your ministry; what an amazing testimony!
17. Warren Kesselring
June 24, 2009
11:25 AM
I have a friend, a former seminary roommate who (at that time) seemed to be the one of the most passionate, spiritual Bible student I knew. He ended up walking away from the church and Christ because whenever he revealed struggles with same-sex attraction to a long-time church friend, they withdrew from him in shock or horror. He wasn’t engaging in the lifestyle, but he had the temptations and we (the church) didn’t know what to do with him.
Obviously, his was not a genuine faith and we know God is sovereign; however, from a human perspective, we drove him away. I see a lot of hope in our future generation that this will not always be the case. We will preach the sinfulness of all sins to all men, but we will not shrink back from loving sinners. Praise God for his mercy to a sinner like me!
18. Jay
June 24, 2009
11:30 AM
How cool! As a gay celibate Christian (or a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction, whichever you prefer), this is just really awesome. I’ve never been a part of a gay community, though I did have a boyfriend early in college (we were abstinent, though). Thanks to a lovely Christian family and a supportive group of Christian friends, I’ve been able to carry on a full and active Christian life despite my past sins and my current “disability.” Gay feelings don’t necessarily go away when one accepts Christ. In many cases I’ve seen, they never go away, and gay individuals who come to Christ remain celibate. But the Church needs to be there for all types, and it is encouraging to hear from Christian leaders who realize that.
19. Reg Schofield
June 24, 2009
11:34 AM
Very interesting and insightful. The only thing I wonder however is how deep a friendship one can truly develop. What I have found with any of my non-christian friends is there sooner or later a line is clearly drawn where I can walk no further with them. What has disturbed me is the fact the gay community continues to push hard in terms of getting more and more literature in our schools and I’m afraid there comes a time one needs push back and that will not go down too well. I have seen up close the anger that comes when even if your try to not make their lifestyle the main item . We have a openly gay MP and he has been very clear on his agenda to get more info into our schools and as a parent that disturbs me . I cannot share my faith without being told to shut up and we also have had the case of a pastor who has been sued over a letter that was biblical concerning GLBT info placed within a elementary school.
I do see outreach as vital but also be careful . Watch your doctrine closely because I have seen people who have switched their views concerning homosexuality as a a valid expression of sexuality after they began to embrace them as friends.
20. Frank Martens
June 24, 2009
11:52 AM
John (or Tim),
Can you please clarify this statement: “Who am I to tell another human being such a thing on my own authority? But then I explain that it is not on my own authority that I am saying these things. Rightly or wrongly, I am utterly convinced that the bible is the revelation of God.”
And how it does not disagree with what Paul commissions Titus in Titus 2:15?
I’m not trying to be quarrelsome, just trying to understand something for my own sake. :D
21. Frank Martens
June 24, 2009
11:54 AM
Wait no… never mind, I answered my own question. John says “…not on my OWN authority…”
I’m good.
22. TaylorH
June 24, 2009
12:09 PM
Here is an interesting thought: What is our (Christian) response AFTER a homosexual person “repents” (desires to change his or her life to be Christ-like)?
It seems that it would be important to think about this case. I think that OUR attitude toward them should remain the same…of course we should encourage them to read the Bible and obey what it says, which includes turning away from homosexuality, but we should also remember that lusting after (any) person is also sin, lying is also sin, hateful thoughts/deeds are also sin. I suppose what I am trying to say is that we are also struggling with our own sinfulness, just as a homosexual person may continue to struggle with homosexual thoughts after being saved.
More that making our current bodies perfect, God desires a true, devoted, and honest relationship with Him. In a coming day, He will *give* us new bodies to be holy and perfect like His Son.
Does this make any sense? Does anyone have other thoughts on the matter?
Has anyone encountered this (for better or worse)?
23. John Kuvakas
June 24, 2009
12:51 PM
Fantastic post with poignant insight. Thanks for sharing and providing a godly perspective on a touchy subject. I admire your courage but I also have a high regard for your dependence upon the word of God to do what it was designed to do .
24. Katie
June 24, 2009
1:00 PM
Great approach. Thanks for sharing this. While, I don’t have any gay friends or family, I have family who are quite supportive of the gay lifestyle and same sex marriages, etc. I think this will be helpful information when we are discussing these matters in the future.
25. Hannah Farver
June 24, 2009
1:18 PM
I loved this. Thank you so much for posting. I can relate to the writer’s distaste for “cold calling” evangelism and appreciate his approach of making a point to consistently hang out in a place where the lost are willing to chat.
26. Allen
June 24, 2009
1:27 PM
That was great; much appreciated, from the brother of a homosexual.
27. Tim Challies
June 24, 2009
1:53 PM
Everyone - Thanks for all the comments and questions. John is working today and has a church meeting tonight, so he has not been able to answer questions yet, nor will he be able to until later this evening. However, he does plan to do so as soon as he can.
28. DLE
June 24, 2009
2:08 PM
As someone who did work for a ministry in Chicago that helped gay men get out of the lifestyle, I can attest it is difficult, heartbreaking work. And indeed, many homosexuals feel remarkably burned by the Church. The odd thing is, despite the reality that most people burned that way shun the Church entirely, many homosexuals do not; they still see hope there, as many are not entirely convinced of their own lifestyle choices.
Getting out of the lifestyle is hard, as a couple commenters noted. We in the Church need to be more compassionate toward people who struggle with this sin. As some have said, we have made homosexuality a “super sin,” and we have often cast it in a light different from our own sins. (I wrote about this a few weeks ago in “The Real Sins of Sodom.”)
29. keith higgins
June 24, 2009
2:08 PM
Some of what you wrote is probably okay.
Sharing your faith is starting a conversation and swinging to the spiritual, ended with sharing the gospel and telling the person they must repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
The problem comes when you focus too much on not trying to offend them. You begin to use language like, “Well, this is what I believe.” You will not find such language or encounters in Scripture. I did not see any Scripture in this post backing up why you did what you did.
Look at the rich young ruler (Mark 10). Jesus understands that his god is his money. Even after looking at the other commandments, he tells the guy to sell everything he has and follow after him. The text even says He loved him and said this. Why did Jesus say this? Selling everything you have is obviously not the way you are saved. Jesus even let the man walk away sad. From the text, it appears the man did not get saved.
Another scenario is Jesus and the woman at the well (John 4). He started the conversation naturally, changed the topic to spiritual, and then immediately confronts her on her sin of adultery. It appears, unlike the rich young ruler, that she did respond in repentance and faith realizing that Jesus was telling the truth.
Make sure that everything you say is Biblical, and not just your opinion or what you feel comfortable with.
You would be surprised how well some people respond to authority and confronting them on their sin.
On the other hand, if they don’t respond well, why chase them? Jesus didn’t. He gave tough challenges and stern warnings.
Evangelism is not convincing a person to repent, being a friend, trying not to offend. Show me one instance in Scripture where Christ tried not to offend and I will listen. Evangelism is speaking the truth in love (with patience, kindness, and gentleness as the Scriptures say) and bringing glory to your Father who is in heaven!
Luke 9:23-24
23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luke 14:25-33
25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
30. Melissa
June 24, 2009
2:13 PM
I offer no criticisms, but instead thank you for the challenge and the opportunity to pray for you, your church, your ministry, and the LGBT community.
31. jessica mell
June 24, 2009
2:34 PM
hallelujah! may there be more of us who do likewise.
32. Nathan
June 24, 2009
2:42 PM
Just to let you all know that I am gay.
I would say that we ARE all the same in terms of the Gospel; we are all guilty sinners. Yet, what a homosexual gives up to live as a Christian, versus a liar, for example, is vastly different. We are NOT all the same in that regard. I firmly believe that a ministry to any person involves both preaching the Gospel and creating an environment that is conducive to Christian life and growth.
The Christian world offers an environment that is homophobic (much beyond biblical proscriptions), unmarried-phobic and heteroSEX-centric that has finally whittled away my resolve to live in that world after 35 years. It took a long time, but I finally realized that church wasn’t anywhere close to family for me like it is for a young married couple. I just don’t belong there because people don’t understand the situation at any level. I find it UTTERLY SHAMEFUL that church is minefield to be navigated rather than a place to really belong and grow. Where are the churches that know how to handle someone in the balance?
Just my 2 cents to try to get people look at the larger dynamic when dealing with people.
Oh yeah, before anyone replies to my post by saying, “we can’t condone sin,” read my response again and note that I neither said nor implied that. Thanks!
33. Casey
June 24, 2009
2:54 PM
Nathan,
I feel your frustration and hate that you have not found a body that loves you through the gospel.
In reading your response though, I do feel some heat and animosity towards the church for not understanding you. As I mentioned in a post above, in my experience with some friends who are gay, there is often a sin beneath the sin of homosexuality, especially, the idol of being understood. Do you relate with that at all?
I do not want to excuse the body of Christ for being a mindfield but to write off the bride that Christ purchased is a heart issue worth addressing.
34. Renee
June 24, 2009
2:55 PM
Tim,
What an incredible service you do to the Church by inviting Pastor Bell to share such an important message.
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.” 1 Cor. 13:1.
God bless you with an ever-increasing love, Pastor Bell, as you continue to minister to His children.
Renee
35. Renee
June 24, 2009
3:06 PM
Nathan,
Churches as we know them today are more like country clubs than a place of refuge and support. From my experiences at least, there appears to be a great need amongst church members to have uniformity and conformity on things that have nothing to do with the gospel of Christ - wears me out, really.
The real Church or the body of Christ may have very little to do with those buildings of brick and mortar and everything to do with people here and there and everywhere who hold to the teachings of Christ and who actually show signs of love.
36. Jay
June 24, 2009
3:08 PM
Nathan, as a guy who is in the same boat as you are, I totally understand. I’m in the American South, too. Not exactly the most knowledgeable and supportive place when it comes to being a Christian guy who deals with this issue.
And you’re right, it’s not like we’re just dealing with lust like every other Christian. That’s certainly a part of it, but we’re also dealing with singleness, and finding a place in a church that is very often a “married with kids only” environment. But like Casey said, no matter how difficult our present situations are, it’s not other people we rely on, but Christ, and our membership in the church doesn’t mean the building where we go, but the Bride of Christ, as seen through the ages.
Casey, I’m curious about your comments. For me, I don’t see my homosexual orientation (or temptations) as having a root any deeper than the Fall. Maybe for some people there are different psychological or spiritual roots, but for me, it’s just something that I’ve experienced since puberty, just like a straight person experiences sexual feelings around that time. What the cause is, I don’t know. It could be biological, and my actions of being celibate wouldn’t change. Cheers to you, and everyone else.
37. donsands
June 24, 2009
3:22 PM
“I was very nervous.” -John Bell
I used to get nervous every time I went visiting the neighbors of my church. We would go out on a Thursday night, and simply go and knock on doors and invite people to church, and we had some incredible conversations.
And although I was nervous every time, it was always worth wild. I was always edified and excited afterward.
Keep on John Bell. I hope you have a prayer “team” praying for you. Praying to the Lord for His pwer, love and to be sober-minded is essential. Also to clad in God’s spiritual armour, for the devil knows what you’re doing, and he’s sceming let me tell you. But the devil is God’s devil.
Lord bless you.
38. Casey
June 24, 2009
3:25 PM
Jay,
Though you and I do share in the Adamic curse and are dead in trespasses and sins, you are still a worshipping being who owes his allegiance and obedience to the Creator.
I won’t hesitate to say that I think some people are born gay but my point was simply following the logic of Romans 1.
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
I am simply begging the question, is there not an idol beneath the perversion of homosexuality? Idolatry is the worship of anything other than God and I would simply state that homosexuality could be treated as less of a heinous sin once it is understood that what is at the root is a problem of idolatry, not simply the sociological stigma we often associate with it.
That being said, I think often times homosexuality tendencies evolve into homosexual practices because of our superficial understanding of idolatry, namely respectable idols such as relationships, control, being understood, all of which are lies exchanged for the truth.
I have known men who have stopped calling their homosexuality their main problem and have begun to identify that what they really love is the praise of man, the control of their own lives and the desire to be completely respected with no misundestandings.
I live in what we call the gayborhood in Dallas so my exposure to this stuff isn’t mainly theoretical. I do want to love those who struggle but I want to be consistent with my thinking and understand their heart the way I understand my own.
39. Richard
June 24, 2009
4:08 PM
God called me to His Son Jesus Christ out of homosexuality thirty years ago.
We are all created in the image of God yet possess a fallen nature (for all have sinned and fall short). Our core sin problem is a heart prone to idolatry, which generates a multitude of sins.
God’s creative design is heterosexual in orientation and intended to be expressed only within the context of a monogamous, heterosexual marriage. For me, the homosexual temptations have never abated but I do not live an active homosexual lifestyle nor seek close companionship with homosexuals. I am sufficient to be content in celibacy as a faithful, obedient servant of Christ. And, I know all temptations are God’s instruments to produce repentance for a heart of darkness, a forsaking of sin, and living obediently in His commands as God slowly, but surely, transforms me into what He wants me to be.
How is it when the Holy Spirit reveals someone, passionate for God and His Word, with a sinful heart that the church drives him away and categorizes his as “not a genuine faith,” just because the sin is homosexuality?
There are many Christians who stuggle with homosexual temptations in the church today as there were in the city of Corinth in the days of the apostle Paul. Most never reveal their dark secret desires out of feared hostility or rejection by the Christian fellowship in which they desire to live.
Victory over sin in not freedom from temptations, of whatever variety. I can attest as to the difficulty of living with these temptations and hearing the church’s extreme esthetic distaste for any and all things homosexual.
I pray Nathan will find a church who will love him and embrace him just as would Jesus do if He were here today.
I am deeply humbled by John Bell and his willingness to rescue homosexuals with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
40. alison
June 24, 2009
4:30 PM
Thanks for this post - great encouragement to me as I seek to continue to love all the people with whom I come into contact, but especially my father and brother who are gay.
41. Nick Hill
June 24, 2009
4:47 PM
John, keep up the good work brother. I am so thankful for what you are doing.
42. Nathan
June 24, 2009
4:58 PM
Jay, we are to rely on Christ alone, but everyone else gets to rely on their spouse and the extended community at church (as well as God). Casey, my desire for understanding is idolatry unless it’s from someone of the opposite sex within marriage. These seem like double standards to me.
Even if they aren’t double standards, “church,” meaning anything from a general gathering of believers to something larger and more formal, should have a correct definition of homosexuality, include single people at every level and NOT push sex so much. Why is my singleness such an elephant in the room? Why can’t fellow Christians accept me instead of reject me as seen through their dissatisfaction with my singleness? How can I be satisfied with my OWN singleness when no one around me is? How can I think that singleness is a gift when everyone around me worships marriage and family and are glad they weren’t given this gift? How can I admit “it is I” to people who repeatedly denigrate at every level what I am tempted by? How can I seek counsel from someone that obviously misunderstands my situation? They assume I am a hostile, God-hater looking to molest and recruit boys to live the worst lifestyle imaginable — these are my friends? — this is my soft place to land? Why should I change parts of me that others say are sinful when the Bible does not agree with them? Why should I dress like them, do sports like them, like cars like them, etc. when it is so obvious that those are not what God intended?
These are serious questions regarding what I would consider a sinful (yes sinful, not just “missing the mark,” or “dropping the ball,” or an “an area we can improve on”) — sinful reaction / behavior of the majority of Christians I’ve come across and NOT ONE that I’ve brought it up to has owned up to it. Apparently, only my sin is worth looking at, dissecting, and excising.
If you are Christian that loves truth and wants to lovingly declare it — please declare ALL of it, and lovingly tell yourself that you’ve blown it! Then, repent of these sins, and “go and sin no more!”
43. Paul Martin
June 24, 2009
5:03 PM
It is great to hear you “write out” what we get to hear week-by-week in staff meeting, John.
You are the real deal!
44. Jay
June 24, 2009
5:17 PM
Nathan: Dude, I get it. Every Christian who has ever openly dealt with homosexuality gets it. Heck, every Christian who has ever once been a prostitute, a drug addict, an out-of-wedlock parent gets it. Yes, it’s very difficult for men and women like us to find a place in the cookie-cutter American Evangelical culture. I’ve had every single frustration you’ve had. I know it seems unfair, but we have to keep going despite all the difficulties. We can’t stop just because there are obstacles. Maybe we’re going to be mistreated by the majority of “Christians” because we struggle with his issue. Just remember that Christ is with us, and if by being open about our past sins and our present joys brings even one person to love their gay neighbor and bring the Gospel to him or her, then all of the mistreatment we endure is worth it.
That’s not saying that we should have to endure it, but unfortunately, the church is made up of sinful people with prejudices and tempers, and we can’t do anything to change that other than point to Christ and Scripture.
Casey: I’ve been blogging for the past three years, so I have met many men who struggle with homosexuality and who, like your friends, recognize roots such as seeking male affirmation that they were denied in childhood. I totally understand that, and I respect the journeys of those men as they seek healing.
Some of these men deal with their issues and are able to develop a functioning heterosexuality. At the same time, I’ve met many men who have dealt with their issues of pride or idolatry of male emotional companionship who still have the same basic homosexual orientation. Now, because of their growth in Christ, they’re able to effectively deal with it and not succumb to it, but it’s still there.
I am particularly wary of seeing my issues of pride or idolatry as specifically related to my homosexuality. Yes, I sometimes seek the affirmation and approval of others more than Christ, but who doesn’t? I am dealing with them, of course, and maybe they are connected. At the same time, maybe they aren’t. Idolatry is something that we all deal with anyway.
45. Becca
June 24, 2009
5:40 PM
That was really great, John. I wish so badly that I could see my Church become non-judgmental and loving to everyone with every type of problem, but the truth is, everyone has their issues they have to deal with. I’m probably the most non-judgmental person I know, just because I’ve been there done that with everything, and I know what it’s like to be in that position.. So who am I to judge? My sister, from the outside, looks like the most goody goody girl you’d ever seen. She seems flawless, but being in the same house with her reminds me she’s just as sinful as I am. She may not deal with the same issues as me, but she deals with the sin of judging people, gossiping, and not loving like Christ. It just goes to show that stopping judging someone can be as hard as stopping an addiction. Judging a book by it’s cover and gossip is just as much a sin as everything else, and it is just as difficult to rid yourself of. You just have to remember to keep praying for your Church to clean itself of the judging and that your Church will overwhelm your community with love and kindness and respect.
46. Lauran
June 24, 2009
5:54 PM
I was also very encouraged by this post. I made my first trip to Toronto a few months ago and attended a Sunday morning service at a downtown church that was within walking distance of my hotel. The bulletin I received stated very clearly that the church supported the LGBT lifestyle, and I remember being shocked at the bluntness of the language. That community is obviously strong in Toronto, and I am encouraged to see that ministers are willing to communicate, engage, and evangelize in the community. I pray also that church-goers will show genuine Christian love and understanding, without wavering on truth. May God bless the endeavors of this church.
47. Ian Kirk
June 24, 2009
6:32 PM
Tim: Thanks for posting this.
Pastor Bell: Thank you for writing this and for your ministry.
There are a lot of wonderful posts, but I would like to point out one thing—the minimal amount of the rhetoric that we have been seeing on both sides. That’s great!
I will say that I agree that evangelistic churches focus on families and/or married couples. Our church does. My ministry, along with my wife, is college students. That doesn’t fit into the family mold either. The issues are different, but the focus of the church is the same. I can’t say that I’ve decided to just deal with it. We do bring it up—not too frequently, I hope, but just enough.
Lastly, the timing is interesting, as there is currently a synchroblog on this issue today, which can be followed on twitter. However, there not much depth in most of the posts I’ve read that actually assist in the conversation.
48. Diane
June 24, 2009
6:50 PM
Pastor John,
Thank you for your courage, and for your honest compassion. I have been pondering this difficult and growing dilemma for many years, and have written a summary of my current conclusions.
If you are willing, would you please read Question #19 on my website, www.dyscletter.com, and let me know if my thoughts are on track?
49. Marie
June 24, 2009
8:58 PM
Nathan,
“but everyone else gets to rely on their spouse “
You assume too much. Based on my experience, in at least half of the married couples, there is little to no grounds for reliance. Don’t assume that the married couples you see are all hunky dory at home.
People are trying to keep their commitments. They are trying to keep things right for their kids. They are trying not to complain or show up in fellowships in a rage or sobbing. But more often than not, marriage can be very lonely.
50. Rob Armstrong
June 24, 2009
9:19 PM
This is fantastic! Praise God for first loving us while we were yet sinners.
I recently moved to NYC’s predominantly gay neighborhood and have been wondering how to best be a witness to my local community. It is SO encouraging to hear of Pastor John’s approach and how God is using it for good.
Amazing how people appreciate a Christian’s honesty and steadfastness of faith when our presentation is out of love and humility — no matter how much the gospel conflicts with the sinner’s worldview.
Friendship evangelism is a very powerful witness and can bring the deepest riches of joy!
51. Nathan
June 24, 2009
10:05 PM
Marie,
Sorry, I could have been clearer: Everyone one is taught to rely on God alone — anything else is idolatry, but reliance on a spouse is encouraged while singles seeking something from another human being is judged as sin.
I didn’t mean to infer that marriage is great. The point was that, in practice, married people get to break the absolute of getting everything solely from God…
52. Cynthia
June 24, 2009
11:02 PM
This made me cry. Thank you so much for writing.
By the way, I’m 50 and have been married a long time. Marriage has forced me to rely on God in ways I never had to when I was single. ….just a thought for the record recorded in recordings some where.
53. Nick
June 24, 2009
11:37 PM
John, you’re right on target, man. I think the worst way to approach sharing the gospel with an LGBT man or woman is to treat him or her as “specialIy” sinful. After I became a Christian five years ago, I was afraid if I opened up to people about my struggle with homosexual desire and behavior, I would be branded as the “special” guy with the “special” sin and be inundated with well-meaning but practically devastating inquiries such as “Have you considered therapy?”, each bearing with it the unspoken tag that reads, “You have a special problem that I don’t quite know how to deal with, and, frankly, I’m scared to try.” While I think therapy is completely legitimate and helpful in certain cases, the fear I just described has not been my experience at all after opening up to the men closest to me in my life. In college I was surrounded by a band of brothers who fought (and still do), in prayer and in time, both for me and with me—even to the point where if I said “Your walking around with your shirt off causes me to stumble,” the shirt would go on, though they could not relate to what I was experiencing. Though I knew they could not fully understand, I understood that they loved me (and still do!) and they showed it by entering powerfully into my struggles and sinfulness with the energy and love of Christ and seeking sanctification with me, as in any area of sin. It is my sincere hope (and conviction) that I always have such men in my life, the type of men only the Holy Spirit can produce, through much affliction. Anyway, John, I wanted to commend you for doing what you do with the gay community. They are precious to Jesus, and he is gathering his sheep from among the gay flock.
Casey, I think you are accurate in your pinpointing of idols. With gay men, the idol is often perfect, masculine companionship, love and affirmation. Watch just about any serious, gay-themed movie for a few minutes and you’ve got that. But perfect masculine love is only attainable from the Father. That is why God identifies with us as such. There is something profound about the father and masculine love.
Nathan, brother. I’m 23 years old. I’m young. Call me naive, if you will, but my experience has been so vastly different from yours. I do not mean at all in the struggles. Those have been almost exactly the same. The doubt upon doubt and disillusionment upon disillusionment with the totally depraved, redeemed-but-stumbling, marriage-and-family idolizing, already-not-yet Church. We are not an attractive bride, by and large. I have wrestled so much with questions like “Will I marry?” “Should I marry?” “If I do marry, how do I tell my wife that I don’t desire her physically, if indeed I do not?” “What will my unbelieving family think if I do not marry?” “Who will take care of me when I grow old, if indeed I am privileged to grow old?” I hope the family of God will be family enough for me then. “But why do I even have to ask these questions? Is that not unfair?” I praise God that He has not dealt with me fairly, but rather mercifully, because I stand condemned without Christ. Period. But what are we to say to widows and widowers? Surely it is normal for the elderly, but what of my 23-year-old friend who just got married in March? What if his wife were to die tomorrow in a car accident on her way to work? Where is his help, his reliance, then? We just don’t know what tomorrow will bring. We don’t have answers to the questions “why this person?” and “why not that person?” I wish we did. I wish I didn’t have the tension I have in my heart over homosexuality and marriage and community, but by grace I trust God at his word that his love is better than life and therefore better than all these, though they are good. I long for the day Christ returns when we do not even have to raise these questions, as intensely emotional and personal as they are. Come, Lord Jesus, come!
Speaking of Jesus, may we note that Jesus never married, which I think is at the core of the greatest heart issue here when we’re dealing with loneliness and alienation from the Church when we do not marry. Let us note that his was the most fulfilled, most joyful, most well-lived life in history. If we don’t believe that, we don’t believe that he was the Son of God. And may we not forget Jesus, our savior and king, that on the night of his arrest, his support system—namely his closest friends and community, his “church group”—deserted him even to the point of betrayal by a kiss. On whom did Jesus have left to rely but his Father? Jesus, “who for the joy that was set before him bore the cross, despising its shame… is seated at the right hand of the throne of God” (Hebrews 12:2). Who are we to think we are exempt from what our master he had to endure? Please join me as I join the apostle Paul, who could do nothing but glory in his weakness that the Lord would not take away from him though he earnestly pleaded, as I’m sure you have pleaded many times for God to take away what pains you so. This is my testimony: “But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9). These are some conclusions I have reached through my wrestlings. I use the word “wrestlings” because the match isn’t over. “Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me’” (Genesis 32:26b). I hope that this is helpful.
Partnering with you all for your joy in Jesus,
nick
54. Kyle
June 24, 2009
11:38 PM
On the “underlying cause:”
While homosexual attraction may come from pride or whatever else, in which case those need to be dealt with first, I don’t see any reason to assume that was always the case. All sin could be categorized as an act of pride, but not all temptation. When Adam and Eve were tempted, Satan was the source of the temptation, pride was what made them give in. When Jesus was tempted, it certainly didn’t stem from any sinful pride on his part, and he never gave in. So if someone faces temptation in the form of homosexual attraction, there may be no underlying sin issue. If I found out that Jesus had faced this temptation as well, it would change nothing in my theology. So if there is some underlying cause, deal with it, but if there is not don’t go off in search of what doesn’t exist.
55. Candy
June 25, 2009
12:00 AM
Nathan. Just a thought. People will not measure up to what we think they should. I went through a divorce many years ago. I spent many years as a single Christian, not that connected to a church, due to the type of job I held at the time. God used that time (in the wilderness), as I call that time, to really get me to focus on Him. I read the Word in Hosea about Gomer and likened myself to her. I had many idols in my life and God stripped them away, took me out in the wilderness ( a very lonely time), wooed me, and drew me closer to Him. I think you should see this time in your life as a time to draw close to your Father, and not a time that you are bereft from the kind of fellowship YOU desire. In His time, He will provide good fellowship that will nourish you, but you might not rely so much on that anymore to sustain you completely. He mostly wants Himself to sustain us. See if you are using the flaws of the Church to make excuses for sin in your heart.
56. Jay
June 25, 2009
12:18 AM
Nick, excellent thoughts. It’s great to hear from other guys that deal with this (though I’ve been doing so on my blog for awhile). It’s also great to hear about your brothers. My own flesh-and-blood brother (and also spiritual brother, since he is one of the strongest Christian men I know) has been an absolute blessing ever since I “came out” to him. Actually, both he and my father are one of the reasons I reject the typical causation model. I totally understand that it works for some guys, including you, but sometimes, like Kyle said, I feel that these desires can just happen with no real cause. Either way, our struggle is the same. God bless you!
57. Casey
June 25, 2009
12:22 AM
I can’t accept that homosexuality is free from dealing with underlying causes. The human heart is naturally bent on false worship and always wants to degod God. The underlying cause may not always be identifiable in a purely categorical sense but as Calvin says, the heart is an idol factory, so the idolatry may mutate and fluctuate depending on the situation, temperament, etc. It is a false dichotomy to ever say homosexuality and idolatry are unrelated.
Looking at porn which almost always leads to masturbation is ultimately self worship and a desire for ultimate control. Is my disposition to porn and a gay mans disposition to men the same? I would say yes. Underlying both is a perversion of the heart that wants to place something other than God at the center of my affections. It is false worship. If we somehow label homosexuality as something other than idolatry we make it the “special sin”, which seems to be something most homosexuals are sick of.
But my union with Christ and the celibate homosexuals union with Christ makes us “new creations”. Jesus did win on Sunday morning and he is therefore the ultimate realist who declares we are new creations by union with him. He makes us fit for true worship by clothing us in his righteousness and empowers us with his Spirit. At the end of the day, all sin is related to false worship. New life is characterized by a life of true worship.
58. michael
June 25, 2009
12:48 AM
Your post is applicable to all Christians obediently evangelizing. The authority of Scripture and beginning with Creation in the discussion are two issues that typical evangelism training neglects. There is a lot more than evangelism to the GLBT community in your post. Thanks for letting loose and having the courage to sit in a gay bar. That’s pretty close to being a Christian in Mecca.
59. Jay
June 25, 2009
12:52 AM
Casey, you’re right in that all sin is false worship. I guess, for me, I don’t see the idolatry of homosexual lusts or behavior as anything more “deep” than making an idol out of the created instead of worshiping the Creator. Heck, I guess all sexual sin is that.
And you’re right in that our unions in Christ make us new creations. That’s something to be praised.
60. Arlen Stuart
June 25, 2009
3:29 AM
John’s ministry is a sweet reminder of God’s compassion towards a ruined sinful man. Thank you so much for posting this. And praise God!
61. Linda
June 25, 2009
4:13 AM
John - Thank you so much for posting this and, even more, for your caring service to a neglected community. I am a 55-year-old never married woman who is very heterosexual but has struggled with many of the same issues that I think the homosexual men you are encountering are struggling with. I have sexual desires that, if I am walking with the Lord and obeying Him, I am not allowed to express because I am not married. I don’t have a husband. I don’t have a companion. I don’t have any children. My only brother died when he was 12 (and I was 13), so I also have no nieces or nephews. I do get lonely.
Nathan - I understand your disappointment in the church - I’ve felt it too, as a single, never married woman. In attempting to address some of the current cultural issues, some churches in my area have “divorce care” but since I’ve never been divorced I can’t even participate in that! I would caution you, however, not to let your disappointment turn to bitterness. Bitterness will eat away at your heart and poison you - it will take all your joy away.
What I’ve discovered is that, in the middle of this seeming desert, is a life-giving God who can be my oasis. He created me, knows all my nooks and crannies, and loves me more than anyone else ever will. And I can trust Him. By getting to know His heart a little bit, and discovering how many times I’ve short-changed Him in my thinking, I’ve grown more peaceful and content.
It’s not like I would turn down a great husband! But, in the meantime, and if the meantime means the rest of my life then so be it, I’m going to focus on the life-giving Spirit that lives inside me, and use my gifts for His glory. Lately, He’s been filling me with excitement and more of a sense of purpose and joy than I’ve ever had. This joy seems to have really sprung out for me when I started to see how much He loved me.
John - please continue to love these men and minister to them. I’m very grateful that God has put you in this situation and allowed you to write about it. I think your writing has tapped into many’s sense of isolation and misunderstanding in the church.
62. Jason Hood
June 25, 2009
7:29 AM
This little essay is great advice for anyone, not just those ministering to homosexuals. However, I would recommend making it anonymous, as it could really be used against you in harmful ways. Just a thought.
63. Kate
June 25, 2009
7:50 AM
Thank you for sharing your testimony and experience. Much appreciated. To God be the glory!
64. Richard
June 25, 2009
9:29 AM
The lost are rarely brought in by how smart we are or how clever our evangelism. Instead, it is the kindness of God (Romans 2:4) and our love one for another that invites them in (John 13:35). We are known as disciples of Christ through our love for other Christians no matter what their previous life-dominating sin. The greatest evidence of the redeeming power of Jesus Christ is when we seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteouness.
We all need a church which is ” a place where they are (not) going to be hurt or embarrassed publicly; a place where everyone is on level ground before the cross of Christ because all are sinners; a place where no one person’s sin is made out to be more repugnant than another’s; a place where all sinners can sit under the uncompromised preaching of holy Scripture and hear of the world’s only Savior and salvation in his name alone. “
65. John Bell
June 25, 2009
9:43 AM
I would like to thank everyone for their comments to my guest post. I have found it very encouraging to my soul to read down the list and see how the Lord has used it to bless. Thank you, all.
I have read every comment and would like to respond to a few. I’m sorry it has taken so long for me to respond, yesterday was a very busy day.
#3 –Yes, Dave, I do hang out with some of these men outside of the context of the coffee shop, though early on I made the mistake of doing that too soon after having met them. This situation I’m in is a bit unique because I am not meeting these men on “neutral” ground. I am not meeting them in the park as they walk their dog or in the lobby of my apartment building. Church Street is “fast food” gay culture, this is where you go to pick up, so when they first meet me I am sending somewhat of a mixed signal just because of the place where I am evangelizing. I made the mistake (though the Lord used it in the long run) of going over to A –‘s apartment too soon after having met him, when he did not know me as well as he does now. This was the third person I talked to and I realized only after that, even though I had told him I was straight, he thought/hoped I was in denial and wanted to be there for me when the last of my straight resistance crumbled! The visit was a good one, the Lord used it, but the flirtation level was uncomfortably high and I soon realized the mistake I had made. A - has no doubts about me now and is no longer flirtatious. In fact, I was talking to a drag queen who was flirtatious with me in the presence of A- and A - told him to be quiet, that I was straight. He was embarrassed by his friend’s behaviour.
#6 - To my knowledge, no one has yet repented and accepted Christ. But I’m here for the long haul, and I believe that day is coming. The Lord has many people in this city.
#12 – Casey, I’m not a big fan of the quote you gave, but maybe it would depend on the larger context. It sounds like an emotional/relational appeal, instead of coming to Christ because we are sinners who need a saviour. But maybe I just need to see the bigger context that the quote is taken from.
Jay, you write with wisdom and are encouraging. Thank you for your comments and interaction, brother!
66. Casey
June 25, 2009
10:58 AM
John,
Thanks for responding and stirring us all to think through gospel in this context.
With regards to the quote from post #12, it was actually a summary of something that was discussed with a gay man I met at starbucks. In isolation it does sound like an appeal that works on the emotions. I do not want to offer them a therapeutic Christ.
When I had originally proposed this to the gay man, it was in light of his sin. In short though, his response to discussing his sin was, “I know I am a sinner, so what, but I still can’t help the fact that I love men.”
This seems to be the heart of the issue for some, including some of the men who are posting here. The objective awareness of ones sin and need for a savior, yet the subjective bondage of still feeling gay. As you mentioned in your post, many of the gay men you met grew up RC, who to some extent know they are sinners (on a very general and superficial level I assume) but can’t rid themselves of the attraction and perversion. This is a precarious issue if they don’t have a biblical knowledge of what sin is. I guess I phrased the quote the way I did in order to attack the idol of the heart. Until Jesus replaces the idol and is worshipped, the perversion resides with full force.
Now for celibate gay Christians, I know I am simplying the issue and it may be reductionistic to some extent but if in our union with Christ we are new creations, I take this to mean that conformity to Christ image progressively addresses the idols beneath all our perversions.
67. Jay
June 25, 2009
12:19 PM
“Now for celibate gay Christians, I know I am simplying the issue and it may be reductionistic to some extent but if in our union with Christ we are new creations, I take this to mean that conformity to Christ image progressively addresses the idols beneath all our perversions.”
I understand that, Casey, and trust me, I want to be conformed to Christ’s image very much. But I think even the best married, straight Christian men can still struggle with temptation when they see a young woman in a bikini. Likewise, I don’t think addressing ones idols necessarily takes away all temptation, nor does it necessarily make one a functioning heterosexual, if that makes sense.
68. Casey
June 25, 2009
12:47 PM
Jay,
I agree with you and have enjoyed our dialogue very much. In fact, you have challenged me to think more thoroughly and sensitively about how to address sin in general.
I hope I don’t seem to be insinuating a triumphalistic Christianity that doesn’t wrestle with temptation. I am part of a PCA church here in Dallas that is committed to being honest about our sin. Rather than saying we struggle with sin, we have been challenged to be honest and admit that we love our sin.
It seems the more honest we are with our sin and call it what it is, the closer we get to praying, “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Knowing we are sinners in general versus knowing our particular love affairs with the idols of our hearts is as different as black is from white. The first is easy and requires no repentence, the ladder bears fruit in keeping with repentence and requires painful cultivation and uprooting.
69. Gayle Brown
June 25, 2009
3:37 PM
Your writing about your experience of ministering to the gay community reminded me of a Dietrich Bonhoeffer passage I just read: Our hearts always like to stay among friends, among those who are upright and honorable. But Jesus Christ was in the midst of enemies, and that’s precisely where he wanted to be. And that’s where we should be too. This distinguishes us from all other sects and religions, where the pious want to stay among themselves. Christ, however, wants us to be in the midst of our enemies, as he was. In the midst of his enemies he died the death of God’s love and prayed: “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing: (Luke 23:34). Christ wants to win his victory among enemies. Therefore, do not withdraw; do not separate yourselves, but think good things about everyone. Live peaceably with all, “so far as it depends on you” (Romans 12:18)… Our hearts should always be full of peace. Does that mean that we should also remain silent about the word of God for the dear sake of peace? Never. But is there then a more peaceful word and work than preaching the peace that God made with his world and with his people? “So far as it depends on you”-one thing does not depend on you, namely, to remain silent about the word of God. But it is your responsibility to speak that word for peace, to speak for the peace of human beings with God, in the midst of a human world that is torn apart and alienated. Jesus made peace with us while we were enemies (Romans 5:10). Let us bear witness to this peace before everyone.
70. Terry
June 25, 2009
4:53 PM
Well our” redeeming the culture” PCA loves Homosexuals SOOO MUCH
last year they handed out water to thirsty “Gay pride “marchers, but not one word of the gospel.
Our “redeeming the culture” PCA loves the dying HIV sufferers SOOO MUCH they send “buckets of love “at Christmas.. But no gospel..
Their love is SOOOO great they would let them die in their sin.. without an opportunity to repent..
71. Bo
June 25, 2009
5:17 PM
Thank you, Tim, for this article. God has given me a compassion for homosexual people, and it is encouraging to see “success” in ministering the uncompromised love of Jesus toward this special people group.
John, may God be pleased to give you many souls!!!
Bo
72. Mel
June 25, 2009
5:38 PM
A quote by CS Lewis comes to mind, “We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
Underneath the idolatry are a set of desires that are not wrong. The problem is that we misappropriate those desires onto other things we think will satisfy. And they may, for a while. But they are mud pies and God is the vacation by the sea. The desires for intimacy, relationship, love, acceptance, etc., etc., that Nathan has expressed are not wrong. We all want those things and God has placed them in us so that He could satisfy them.
Isn’t the essence of all sin unbelief? We don’t believe God can satisfy us, so we go on the chasing idols we think will satisfy?
Isn’t marriage and the sexual union just a foreshadow of the deeply intimate and satisfying union the church (his bride) will have with Christ one day?
It seems to me, it would be most compelling to point out that the desire isn’t wrong, it is the expectation that _____gay relationships, adultery, porn, our earthly marriages or other seemingly good things, ( you fill in the blank) will give what only God can.
Isn’t temptation best fought when desires are shifted from the instant gratification of mud pies onto the delayed but infinitely more enjoyable vacation by the sea.
I think what is needed for those who struggle with powerful sexual temptations, like homosexuality is not more harping on the sinfulness of what they are tempted by but a grander vision of God and the joy that will come when we are with him in eternity. Beside God most temptations, idols, mud pies, what ever do shrink and ultimately we have the hope that one day we will die and be removed from this battle.
The book edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor, “Sex and the Supremacy” of Christ might be helpful for John in his evangelism and Nathan who is so clearly struggling with what to do with his longings and desires.
73. Jay
June 25, 2009
5:59 PM
Terry, it seems like you have a good handle on what your PCA needs to show gay people in addition to the bottled water and the care packages for HIV victims (who, by the way, aren’t all homosexuals, nor are they all people who contracted the disease through sinful means).
Since you seem to realize what’s wrong in your PCA, I’m sure you’re working hard to fix it and lovingly share the Gospel, not only with gay men and women, but with sinners everywhere. Good for you.
74. Casey
June 25, 2009
6:46 PM
Mel,
You are right. The desire for intimacy, relationships, love, acceptance, etc. are not wrong but when they become “ultimates”, they are wrong. Homo or hetero, the over desiring of anything other than God is ultimately a mud pie compared to God.
Even the very act of posting a comment and so badly wanting people to agree with me (idol of acceptance) to the point that I get angry if someone critiques my view (idol of being understood) , is a playground for idolatry. Yet what creates the idols is my heart and what dethrones the idols is satisfaction in God. My love for the praise of man and a homosexuals love for the same sex operate on the same level, both are dissatisfied in God and his ordained way of living in shalom with him. Mel accurately quotes Lewis in pointing to the “desires” and I would add Edwards thoughts on the affections as well. All true worship (religion in Edwards case) involves the affections. Homosexuality is the outworking of believing a lie, just like my obsession for approval. The belief in a lie (mental ascent) leads the affections (worship). If we deny that, we are on the trajectory for making homosexuality an optional lifestyle just like we have made narcissism or consumerism an optional lifestyle. If we judge homosexuality as wrong, lets judge it alongside all other idolatry.
Ministry to this community is very tough, mainly because it is respected, just like narcissism and consumerism Loving them via getting to know them is not the hard part, loving them via being honest about the lie they are believing, that is the hard part. Its like telling my metrosexual (in love with image and being adored) friends that they are no different than my homosexual friends. Hearing that and even saying that seems preposterous Yet the sad truth is, both are in love with a lie.
75. Julius mickel
June 25, 2009
8:46 PM
If any one cares to watch or more importantly send to someone, here is a video i put on youtube a while back:
(actually there are two parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOPsFC0HV4
that’s my thoughts on the matter
76. Nathan Colquhoun
June 26, 2009
10:36 AM
Even though we disagree on the acts of homosexuality, it’s people like you I don’t mind disagreeing with. You’re approach is holistic to them and to your faith in the Scriptures and puts yourself on the same level as they are. If the church had this approach, this probably wouldn’t be nearly as much of a debate in the church as it has turned into. I feel like most of the church is debating the wrong question in regards to homosexuality, but you have been able to skirt questions that don’t get us very far and focus in on what’s important, that being, we are all in need of salvation….including the one proclaiming that to the other.
77. Carrie
June 26, 2009
1:00 PM
76 comments and not a single hostile word - what a breath of fresh air in the blogosphere! Pastor John, keep up the great work. It is so encouraging to know that there are men (and women) like you sharing the gospel with the LGBT community. I think your way of telling people about Christ embodies the sentiment expressed by Martin Luther, “We are all mere beggars telling other beggars where to find bread.”
78. Nathan
June 26, 2009
7:05 PM
I wrote this a yesterday morning, but didn’t post it then because I wanted to give time for someone to post something that I consider positive…
I am so completely disheartened because only those that have been marginalized truly understand and care anything about what it’s like being on the outside looking in. I would love for those responsible for marginalizing gays to experience one day of what they expect my entire life to be.
Even the author of the article has nothing to say about the larger issue. I stand by my statement: The general Christian response is the homosexual’s sin should be dissected and excised rather than the church’s sin of allowing a poor response to homosexuals to continue for aeons. Please don’t mistake what I am saying — I appreciate the author’s willingness to engage gays on their turf, but what are his plans after he finally lures one into church? Is the church, in general, ready, willing and able to support ex-gays? I’m asserting that it is not.
Anyway, thank you to everyone here for proving my point exactly.
79. Nick Coller
June 27, 2009
3:56 AM
Nathan,
Pastor Bell addressed your question in his second last paragraph - that he is a part of a church plant in downtown Toronto whose hope it is to be there FOR ex-gays. I think that many churches probably wouldn’t be ready, willing and able to support ex-gays, but I think it’s unfair to put that as a blanket statement over all churches.
80. Nathan
June 27, 2009
2:19 PM
Bell is “praying for the day” & so am I.
What does it mean for a church to be there for gays? Leaving that undefined allows people ignore what they are doing wrong now and what they could be doing…
81. Josaias
June 29, 2009
12:00 AM
Hi, Tim. My name is Josaias and I’m brazilian. I’m asking your and John’s permission to translate this great text to my language. It was very informative and I think the church in Brazil needs read it.
thanks
God bless you.
82. Owen
June 29, 2009
1:51 AM
Hi…
Really enjoyed the article, I think John is doing a fantastic thing. And I learned a lot from the comments, also. I’ve been hearing a call on my life lately to stretch a lot more in this department, so that’s what has got me reading things like this…..I’ve met very few people in my life with orientation different than my own, and where I live there don’t seem to be many, either…..although I don’t know that I would recognize it. I used to work with great lady at my workplace, and it wasn’t until after she left that I found out she was lesbian. Really intrigued me, because she was awesome to work with, great personality, etc….I realize how that sounds now that I see it!! So , I have a lot to learn.
Can anyone tell me where to follow John’s mission? I realize he is a guest poster here…..I would really like to read more of what he’s doing, his church, and ministry.
Thanks
83. JT
June 30, 2009
10:58 PM
Hi there,
I appreciated some of the things you said in your post, particularly, “How many drag queens can count a born again Christian amongst their friends? Very few, to our shame.”
However, I have a bit of a problem with your premise. By that I mean you seem to regard the gay community as folk that need to be conquered. I very much see an “us” and “them” mentality here and I suppose I wonder if that is helpful.
I too live in close proximity to Toronto’s gay community and so I often think about how to best be witnesses to God’s grace myself.
JT