Every now and again I receive an email, often as part of a group mailing addressed to a wide variety of the most-read bloggers, asking me to use my site as a platform to post or provide comment on a particularly inflammatory issue. I got one of those emails today, this one from Andy Jackson of “SmartChristian” fame. Andy noticed that Ken Silva, one of the writers at the “Slice of Laodicea” blog, quoted Robert Murray M’Cheyne and his suggestion that the beast of Revelation is the church of Rome. On his blog Andy declares that “this is absolutely ridiculous” and in his email says: “Please take a look at this post at Slice and either post on it or provide a comment. I understand apologetics and standing for right teaching, but I have concerns about this blog labeling and condemning others in the body of Christ that we might not agree fully with.”
Here is the offending quote from M’Cheyne:
Now, we know quite well that the beast is the Church of Rome; we are told that the beast sits upon seven hills; and we are told at the end of the second verse that the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. So that there is no doubt, dear brethren, but that the great enemy of the sheep the false shepherd, who comes like a lamb, but who has the paw of a bear - is Antichrist. Now, there can be no doubt but that he gets his power from Satan.
M’Cheyne is by no means unique in suggesting that the beast is none other than the Roman Catholic Church. One could easily argue that this is nothing more than the consensus of historic Protestantism. If Ken Silva does believe this, and nowhere in the article does he affirm such a belief, he finds himself in good company. It is only in the past few decades that this belief has fallen out of favor. Not surprisingly, this change coincides with increasing efforts to bridge the theological gaps between Catholicism and Protestantism.
I’d like to take a look at what some great Protestants of days past have had to say about the beast of Revelation. As you read, remember that we tend to misrepresent the meaning of the prefix “anti-” in the word “antichrist.” We most often think of the prefix “anti-” as meaning “against,” but in context of antichrist it actually means “in place of.” So these men were not looking for someone or something that sought to fight explicitly against Christ (such as the Muslim faith) but something or someone that sought to set itself up in place of Christ. Of course the two means lead to the same end, but a person who puts himself in place of Christ is likely to be far more subtle and may arise from within rather than from without the visible church. Those who look outside Christianity for antichrist may miss him altogther. This is the true sense of what the word means and this is the sense in which Christians used it in days past.
Before we look at some interesting quotes, I will affirm that Protestants do not have a great track record when it comes to predicting just who the antichrist is. Some time ago Stephen Nichols wrote an article entitled “Prophecy Makes Strange Bedfellows: On the History of Identifying the Antichrist” in which he argued that Christians should not attempt to identify the antichrist. After examining the biblical case for antichrist and the history of biblical interpretation regarding this figure, he suggests that prophecy makes strange bedfellows, for Protestants of all stripes, many of whom would agree on little else, have affirmed their belief that the pope or the Catholic Church is anitchrist. He goes on to list some other people who have been so labelled. “The studies of Paul Boyer…chronicle the vast range of likely and unlikely suspects including Juan Carlos of Spain, Mussolini, Hitler, Ronald Wilson Reagan (whose name contains three words of six letters each and who almost moved to a 666 street address), Elvis, JFK, FDR, Henry Kissinger, Gorbachev (who has an uncanny birthmark on his forehead), Moshe Dayan, Anwar el-Sadat, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, and Saddam Hussein.” I would like to note three things about this list.
First, while it is true that all of these men have been labelled as the antichrist, this has never been done with any sort of consensus within the church. If we were to look through church history since the time of the Reformation for the church’s consensus, we would soon find that all roads, or most roads at any rate, lead to Rome. Second, all of these figures are from recent history. Prior to the twentieth century, there was, as I have indicated, a much more consistent consensus. Third, we should note that most of the men listed by Boyer are dead, and those who are not will surely die soon. And yet the Catholic Church lives on; the papacy continues. Rome is, by her own testimony, semper idem: always the same; never changing.
Some time ago I discovered an interesting list of quotes from some of the great Reformers and spiritual giants of the past concerning the Roman Catholic Church. I will post them below that you may understand the consensus of these great men of faith.
Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran): “Luther … proved, by the revelations of Daniel and St. John, by the epistles of St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude, that the reign of Antichrist, predicted and described in the Bible, was the Papacy … And all the people did say, Amen! A holy terror siezed their souls. It was Antichrist whom they beheld seated oÂn the pontifical throne. This new idea, which derived greater strength from the prophetic descriptions launched forth by Luther into the midst of his contemporaries, inflicted the most terrible blow oÂn Rome.” Taken from J. H. Merle D’aubigne’s History of the Reformation of the Sixteen Century, book vi, chapter xii, p. 215.
Based oÂn prophetic studies, Martin Luther finally declared, “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520). Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.
John Calvin (1509-1564) (Presbyterian): “Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt… I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” Taken from Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.
John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian): John Knox sought to counteract “that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church.” As with Luther, he finally concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.
Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican): “Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.
Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America): Pastor Williams spoke of the Pope as “the pretended Vicar of Christ oÂn earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not oÂnly above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself…speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2).” The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647): “There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God.” Taken from Philip Schaff’s, The Creeds of Christendom, With a History and Critical Notes, III, p. 658, 659, ch. 25, sec. 6.
Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian): “The oracles of God foretold the
rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.
John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped…claiming the highest power, and highest honour…claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.
Charles Spurgeon: “It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description.”
“Popery is contrary to Christ’s Gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to pray against it. It should be the daily prayer of every believer that Antichrist might be hurled like a millstone into the flood and for Christ, because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread into the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water into the place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as the vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors: we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray.”
A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” Taken from All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.
These are but a drop in the bucket. It would not be difficult to fill a book with similar expressions. Protestants have long held the Roman Catholic Church with great suspicion, and more often than not, have done so for good reason.
Back at “Slice of Laodicea,” Silva posted a brief article to provide a point of clarification regarding his intent. “My intent with the Robert Murray M’Cheyne quote was simply to illustrate how far Christians have fallen from a proper view of the apostate Church of Rome, and not to state that I personally believe Rome is the ‘great whore’ or ‘beast’ in Revelation.” He does well to quote John MacArthur who says “The Catholic Church claims to be true Christianity. And…we [can’t] reverse 450 years of history and just throw our arms around the Roman system, which…we have to say in all honesty is not a group of wayward brothers, but is an apostate form of Christianity. It is a false religion; it is another religion.” It is, indeed. In fact, it is a false church that sets itself up not against but in place of the true body of Christ.
Like Silva, I am not arguing that I believe the Roman Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation, but am saying that one could make such an argument and make it forcefully. And of course, through the history of the church, many have made that argument. Those who do so today have many heroes of the faith on their side—men who knew their Bibles and loved God. Some of these were even put to death by the church they labelled antichrist. Among these was Thomas Cramner, who, when asked to renounce his heresies, said “And as for the Pope, I refuse him, as Christ’s enemy and Antichrist, with all his false doctrine.” He was soon led to the stake where he often spoke the “words of Stephen, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,’ till the fury of the flames putting him to silence, he gave up the ghost.”
In his article, Nichols writes, “Naming the antichrist probably reveals more about the person naming than anything. In some instances naming reveals a person’s interpretation of texts or theology. In others, the naming has more to do with one’s sociological or political views.” He warns against improper hermeneutics, saying “Overcoming what one brings to the text is, as many contemporary writings on hermeneutics conclude, not so easy, if even possible. Nonetheless, a reading of the text that is governed by what we bring to the text as opposed to what we find in the text is likely to lead to a misreading of the text.” As we saw in a previous quote from this article, Protestants have a long history of seeing antichrist only within the context of a particular time and culture. How else could anyone understand Henry Kissinger or Elvis Presley to be the antichrist? In the days of the Reformation and the years that followed, Christians brought to Scripture their understanding of a Church that was adamantly and violently opposed to their faith and was seeking, by fire and sword, to stamp it out. It is little wonder that they saw the Church in the beast. In our day and in our culture we bring our understanding of a Church that regards us as but separated brethren and which seeks to unite us under the papacy through gentle persuasion. We bring an understanding of the faith that is, in many ways, blind to the history of the church. It is little wonder that we do not see the Church in the beast.
In the days of the Reformation, the Catholic Church sought unity through force. Today, many Protestants and Catholics seek unity through dialogue. But unity comes at a cost whether it be with a clash of swords or a meeting of minds. As the ends are the same, so must be the ground we give. That ground is the pure, true gospel message of justification by grace alone through faith alone. Surely the exhortation of Charles Spurgeon, even with the offending word “antichrist” removed, stands true today: “It should be the daily prayer of every believer that [the Roman Catholic Church] might be hurled like a millstone into the flood and for Christ, because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread into the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water into the place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as the vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors: we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray.”
Is the Roman Catholic Church the beast of Revelation? I don’t know. Truthfully, I have never invested a lot of time or effort in examining the evidence and forming such a judgment (and, in fact, the same is true of me in most areas of eschatology). I am not convinced that God has enabled us to know the identity of the beast with any great certainty. But it seems to me that if we are to ignore the testimony of so many great believers, from Luther to Spurgeon, from Whitefield to Lloyd-Jones, we may do so at our peril. To simply ignore the consensus of so many great men, and to label such a consensus as “absolutely ridiculous” seems to me to be far more ridiculous.
Comments (101) »
1. centuri0n
June 12, 2006
11:14 AM
What?! Challies posts a controversial post?
I … I don’t believe it … it’s the end times!
2. s. zeilenga
June 12, 2006
11:15 AM
Whoa.
um… whoa. I have a hundred questions but no words for them. Great article. I believe I will be contemplating this for awhile.
z.
3. 4ever4given
June 12, 2006
11:33 AM
I have read somewhere that “Faith makes a Christian but doctrine creates a church.”
There is a considerable measure of doctrinal man-centered compromise out there… and so many heretical churches, my head spins.
It is interesting to study church history and the rotating heresies that always come around time and again with different labels.
However, Catholicism seems to have stayed a steady heretical course.
Roman Catholicism seems to have this confidence that they stand for all Christianity.
What is that “great apostacy” presided over by the “man of sin?” (2 Thess. 2:3)
Very thought-provoking, frontal lobe pulsating post.
4. diablaazul
June 12, 2006
11:39 AM
What about Eastern Orthodoxy? Are the Eastern Orthodox churches apostate as well? I’m just wondering what your position is on this.
5. Carla Rolfe
June 12, 2006
11:51 AM
Good post Tim. I appreciated Ken Silva’s post and appreciate yours as well.
You’ve nailed it when you say:
“It is only in the past few decades that this belief has fallen out of favor. Not surprisingly, this change coincides with increasing efforts to bridge the theological gaps between Catholicism and Protestantism.”
You’ll see this increased effort in just about every “movement” going these days.
Fact is, you can’t bridge these gaps. Those who try, do so at the cost of sound doctrine and prudent discernment.
SDG…
Carla
6. andrew jones
June 12, 2006
11:53 AM
tim. great post. i will be in Rome next week and will be sure to bring regards from readers of Slice.
we should take our precedessors seriously yet if we conveniently defer every element of the Beast’s influence and the sway of fame and fortune through Babylon the Great to those in the Other camp, then we are in danger of unwittingly becoming part of what we hate. We should be more on guard and examining ourselves as well as others.
7. Frank Martens
June 12, 2006
1:18 PM
I hear ya on this one… It’d be like saying Islam, or the Mormons were the beast. Of course any other religion besides Faith Based Christianity is an antichrist type religion. Nobody really knows, just like Daniel didn’t know what his prophecies meant fully when he received them. What I mean is Daniel didn’t know exactly which men were going to be the next world leaders.
But, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep our heads up.
8. 4ever4given
June 12, 2006
1:18 PM
Perhaps Challies next book reviews can be “Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism” or “A Woman Rides the Beast: Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days”
9. Brian Thornton
June 12, 2006
1:21 PM
Tim,
I noticed that you started out by talking about the beast of revelation, and then almost immediately begain referring to quotes from people like Luther talking about anitchrist.
One mistake that is commonly made is using the terms ‘beast’ and ‘antichrist’ interchangeably, when they are two very distinctly different things.
There is NO mention of antichrist in Revelation…none whatsoever. Most people who attribute Revelation as all yet to happen in the future with the rise of the anitchrist don’t even realize this.
Antichrist is only mentioned four times in the Bible, three of them are in 1 John, and the other is in 2 John….possibly a fifth time with Paul’s reference to a man of lawlessness.
John is VERY specific in Revelation about the identity of the beast…he makes it clear that it is a man…NOT a system or office. That man’s number is 666, and I think if you look at it objectively, you will see that it does indeed refer to someone within the first century, that being Nero. Revelation is a letter written by the apostle John to first century believers with whom HE was a fellow partaker in the tribulation (1:9), and this letter was a description of the things which would soon take place.
As to the meaning of antichrist, I think you are correct…it refers to anyone/thing that takes the place of the one true Christ. Another aspect of antichrist that most people don’t realize is that John said to his fellow saints in the first century that anitchrist was already present.
10. James Hakim
June 12, 2006
1:32 PM
Rome, the Babylon of Revelation 17, has drunk more deeply of the blood (slight theological pun intended) of the saints than any other entity (though she may one day be overtaken by Mecca). This at least puts her on the beast’s back, and as seen in Tim’s post, the descriptions of the latter are so apt that it is not difficult to believe they are references to the same entity. If this surprises you, may I commend Foxe’s Martyrs to you for some Lord’s Day afternoon reading? (Not the DC-Talkified edition, if you can help it).
11. Aaron
June 12, 2006
1:57 PM
Notice also that the the reference in 1 John is to “many antichrists” and that they had already appeared at that time:
1 John 2:18 - Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
12. Philippa
June 12, 2006
5:24 PM
John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Ack! I beg your pardon, Mr Challies, but never use the adjective ‘Scotch’. It’s ‘Scottish’. :)
I have a friend who is convinced that the AntiChrist will be some European bureaucrat who even now is setting up the One World system, aided and abetted no doubt by the Bilderberger group (or whatever they call themselves!)
Of course all the informed Reformed folk posting here will have heard all that stuff before. :)
I grew up with it: pre-or-post-tribulation dispensationalism, etc.
I guess I would call myself an amillenialist these days. I think that the huge climactic events that herald the end of human history as we know it- the Second Coming, the last judgement, etc. - will all happen all at once … however or whatever that means. But yes, I do believe they will happen.
Rome as AntiChrist. Well, I guess I feel about that the way I do about any other AntiChrist theory.
It’s possible. Although I have to say that many of the Catholics I have met don’t seem particularly brainwashed.
Yes, I do have theological problems with Roman Catholicism but I can’t help reflecting that it’s an inevitable aspect of Protestantism that suspicion and dislike of Rome is hard-wired into some Protestant thinking. So, hardly surprising that Luther & Co. wrote the way they did …
I do find it curious though,, when there are so many other equally dodgy political and religious systems in the world - past and present.
Surely Communism killed more saints than the church of Rome ever did during the worst excesses of the horrible religious wars of the 16th century, Mr Hakim?
It’s also worth remembering that Protestants did their fair share of persecuting too … against other Protestants, sadly. :(:( The Anglican Church treated the Scottish Covenanters appallingly. And then, earlier on, there were the Anabaptists …
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to check if the Illumunati have tapped my phone …
13. John
June 12, 2006
5:47 PM
I’m with Andy Jackson on this one. The slice website seems to be a stream of increasingly bitter attacks on anything which doesn’t strike them as “pure.” After comparing the Catholic church to the beast of Revelation, they had a second post stating that it could just as likely be the “evangelical church.” Are you on board with that one as well?
As forRevelation itself, I’m with Brain Thornton (pleased to meet you, Brian) who seems to have a good handle on things. All of the New Testament including Revelation is “other people’s mail.” We make a mistake when we read everything that was in their future then as being yet in our future.
And since James (another commenter above) brought it up, I’d like to suggest a comparison. Rev. 18:24 says (speaking of the harlot) “In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.” Now compare with Matthew 23: 34-36 where Jesus is speaking of Jerusalem:
I think it’s difficult to come to any other conclusion than that the harlot was Jerusalem. I quick word study on the use of “harlot” in the Old Testament will confirm that this term was frequently used (often by God himself) in reference to God’s wayward people.
The Catholic church has many serious problems, but they’ve come a long way since the reformation. Suggesting that they are the height of evil today (the anti-Christ) is like something out of a Dan Brown novel or worse yet a Tim LaHaye novel. Absurd is the perfect word for it.
14. Allan
June 12, 2006
7:11 PM
John said;
“The Catholic church has many serious problems, but they’ve come a long way since the reformation.”
??? Did I MISS something?!!! - Explain this assertion John.
Actually we seem to be forgetting that Religious Unity, Ecumenism, which started at the Tower of Babel, and yes perhaps at the last, being visibly headed by the Roman Pope, - (Maybe then seated at a unified JERUSALEM!?!) - will probably be the locus of the manifested Anti-Christal Spirit.
But why pick out ONE particular stream of visible religion? Haven’t the Protestant Churches fallen further from their light than Rome, who has not really budged in spirit from ANY of her abominations.
15. Jabbok
June 12, 2006
9:02 PM
$peaking of inflamatory i$$ue$ and platform$. I wa$ ju$t wondering today if you had ever written anything on the $ubject of tithing.
I thought to my$elf, I $ay$… it wouldn’t matter what he wrote, there would be over 200 comment$.
That’$ a bea$t of another color.
16. Lin
June 12, 2006
10:06 PM
I am a bit nervous about John’s assertion that the Catholic Church as come a long way. Years ago I had Catholic business partners. We used to get into friendly debates all the time. One was over communion which they insist is actually Christs blood and flesh. Yep, those little wafers are really Him. I asked them if the manufacturer of the wafers knew this.
They tried to tell me that praying to the saints was sort of like God’s management team who interceded for them. I guess the Holy Spirit is too busy?
I would ask them what is up with the Mary worshipping. Well, she was favored by God, they said. I would ask them to show me in the NT where we should pray to her. But then, they would actally have to read the Bible and that is not exactly encouraged by the priest.
These are people who think the first pope was Peter and he wore one of those hats! :)
There are millions who believe these things and consider themselves Christians. Seems like they are in line for anything the pope tells them is true.
17. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
12:36 AM
I’m not going to “hijack” this thread and get into a discussion of Catholic theology, but it’s obvious from previous comments that many of the readers here are completely misinformed when it comes to actual Catholic doctrine and the historic doctrines of the Church. If you really want to know what Catholics believe, I suggest that you pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You might be surprised at what you find. As a lifelong Protestant (until recently), I found myself shocked at how much I could agree with in the Catechism and how slanderous and erroneous what I had been taught about Catholicism as a child was.
Might I also suggest that people study Church History *before* the Reformation more closely? A study of the Early Church shows that the beliefs and practices that so many of you condemn as anti-biblical and apostate were held by early Christians: infant baptism/baptismal regeneration, invocation of Mary and the saints, belief in the perpetual virginity and bodily assumption of Mary, and belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Christians in Rome were requesting the prayers of Sts. Peter and Paul by the early 2nd century. Luther and Calvin both believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity (and later, Wesley). Luther believed in baptismal regeneration and in the Real Presence of Christ around (not in) the Eucharist - consubstantiation. Most of the Reformers would have far more in common with Catholics today than they would with contemporary evangelical Christians. And of course, many of these same beliefs and practices are and always have been held by the Eastern Orthodox Church, which traces its traditions and doctrines right back to the founding of Christ’s Church. So are they apostates, or Christians?
18. Lin
June 13, 2006
2:18 AM
>>A study of the Early Church shows that the beliefs and practices that so many of you condemn as anti-biblical and apostate were held by early Christians:>>
I agree. This is ONE reason why Paul wrote so many letters to the churches. To straighten them out when they had wrong beliefs.
19. James H
June 13, 2006
2:32 AM
Tim:
Spot on. I recall fondly learning in Greek that the prefix “anti” means “instead” or “in place of” and at times “against.” The historic view that the church of Rome is antichrist in many respects (if not “THE” antichrist) cannot be easily ignored.
Take the bishop’s miter, for instance. The pope’s three-tiered cap that not only is wonderful in lightning storms (he’d take one for the flock if he were standing in a field with some parishoners during such a storm…), also signifies that he is the vice-regent of Christ on the earth over heaven, earth, and hell below.
The idea that the Roman See is the earthly representative of Christ, holding the keys of the kingdom in a monolithic fashion, as the earthly viceroy of Jesus Himself, is the very definition of antichrist.
BUT
John *did* speak of “many” antichrists, as others have pointed out. The blue devil herself obviously wants to point the finger at the Eastern Church, others mention the LDS and other religions. Let’s not forget Muhammad who proclaimed that HE was the “paraclete” (holy Spirit) of John’s Gospel, promised of Christ in John 14 and 16…
There are many. But Rome? Sure. Her too. Synagogue of Satan. Let’s not rest there, however. The Reformers were right in their time to point this out, but let’s be vigilant, lest we welcome some other in the name of Christ only to find that Satan had us looking east when he snuck in the back door! Let us test every spirit and teacher, every doctrine and remain Bereans—let the Word of God prove our cases, and let’s not think that Satan would be so easily classified as merely the pope or Roman Catholic. His followers look like the rest of the sheep, whatever the denomination.
Do you want a good test for the anti-christ?
Read I John. God’s standard for His true disciples were meant not to point fingers so much as they were meant to be used to examine ourselves. Sure, we can be cautious around other “believers,” we can test others through conversation, etc., but the whole while: is the love of the Father in us? Do we say to someone, “You know, you’re Roman Catholic. I think you’re anti-christian,” as we walk on the other side of the road (the opposite of the “Good Samaritan” parable)?
Let’s take heed and realize that Satan would silence us easily by simply raising our suspicions and making us too afraid to go out and conquer our neighbors with the Gospel of Truth while we huddle safely amongst those in our same denominational lines.
The devil is the most cunning of all the creatures. Deadly subtle, that snake.
“I will establish my church, and against it the gates of Hell will not prevail.”
Anti-Christ or not: we’ve won. Christ won it for us.
—James H
20. Steve P
June 13, 2006
4:53 AM
I had a Roman Catholic friend who just suffered through three years of ALS, and whose faith in Jesus Christ as his only hope and savior was exemplary. Still, both the historical and formal positions and actions of the Roman Catholic church kept me at a place of discomfort about his faith and that of other friends. Biblically, one can’t deny that the doctrines of that church, taken as a whole, are aberrant and dangerous.
While I would agree that this discussion is fruitful, along with all discussions that might expose the error that supplants Biblical truth, I must continually look at my own heart and faith, and that of those I sit beside in the pew. Certainly, even our right doctrinal position (imho) can be set up as “anti-christ,” where our hope and faith is in the system and our rightness, rather than in the One and Only. And that, even for the elect, as something that can be done on a moment by moment basis when our focus is only on our right beliefs and the error in others’ rather than Christ himself.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Tim. Keep up the good work.
Steve P.
21. Glenn Piper
June 13, 2006
6:09 AM
“infant baptism/baptismal regeneration, invocation of Mary and the saints, belief in the perpetual virginity and bodily assumption of Mary, and belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.”
Anyone who believes the above is in need of serious help and of reading their Bible. Invocation of Mary is enough on its own to show you are in need of serious help. It would mean that Christ was not sufficient and that dispite what the Bible clearly teaches, Christ is not the sole intercessor between man and God.
Oh dear, oh dear. See Rom 8:34 There is nothing about Mary in this context, nothing.
22. bchallies
June 13, 2006
7:57 AM
A few bits and pieces about the discussion. First: the Pope’s title is the “Vicar of Christ”. The Latin root of this word means “substitute” (We, of course, get our word “vicarious” from this same root) - the “Vicar of Christ”, “substitute of Christ”…pretty close to “in the place of” Christ…ie, “antichrist”. His assumed position as head of the universal church - with all the claims of spiritual and political authority attendant upon this - also usurps Christ’s role, putting him in Christ’s place.
A very scholarly Scottish pastor I know of claimed the early Christians prayed for the continuation of the Roman Empire as they expected the lawless one, the antichrist, to assume power out of the rubble of the empire’s disintegration. They refer to this, but not by name for fear of political repercussion in forecasting empire’s demise , in the following statement: “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back (ie.Rome) will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed…etc. The Roman church did fill this vacuum, and later claimed, in forged documents, that Constantine had officially “donated” his western empire to the Bishop of Rome.
Finally, as to doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and how closely it now approximates Biblical, Protestant doctrine: the crystal-clear way for Rome to make clear it now accepts Biblical truth is not to throw more words into joint statements, etc., but to revoke all the anathemas hurled at the heart of Reformational thelogy.
23. Timothy
June 13, 2006
8:22 AM
In for a penny, in for a pound…
James H. stated “…The idea that the Roman See is the earthly representative of Christ, holding the keys of the kingdom in a monolithic fashion, as the earthly viceroy of Jesus Himself, is the very definition of antichrist.”
So, who does hold the ‘keys of the kingdom of heaven’ given by Christ in the Gospel of Matthew? (Matt 16:18-19, Isaiah 22:20-23)
Glenn Piper stated “See Rom 8:34 There is nothing about Mary in this context, nothing.”.
Amen. Correct. This verse states that Christ intercedes to the Father. It states nothing about anyone’s ability to intercede with Christ, i.e., Mary. (It also states nothing about whether pizzas should have anchovies, nothing.)
We know from the Wedding Feast of Canna that Christ kept the commandment and honored his mother, Mary, when she interceded for the wedding guests. (John 2:1-11)There is nothing in the Bible which says Christ has since ceased honoring his mother and denying her requests.
Of course, some would argue that Mary is dead, but we see in Matt 22:32 that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. ” So that arguement is moot.
Back to the discussion, as one of the resident Catholic commentors at Slice, I too made Brian T’s point that the term antichrist does not appear in Revelations. My copy of the bible also only shows four appearances and it means someone who denies Christ is Lord.
As I found out, Slice readers have been taught a Protestant tradition and they’re sticking with it. They have to. They have no choice. To not claim that the Catholic Church is the beast is to claim that the Catholic Church is true and their theology crumbles.
G.K. Chesterton described their dilemma best;
“…it is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it …”
- Timothy
24. Donna
June 13, 2006
9:46 AM
Timothy,
To justify your position, you must also believe that scripture CONTRADICTS itself. So which is it? God contradicts himself, or you are picking and choosing the verses that support what you want to believe (out of context) and disregarding the other truths???
25. Robbo
June 13, 2006
10:14 AM
Tim,
As someone who was born and raised Roman Catholic but was saved by Grace through the ministry of a different organization (Scripture Union) it is my personal opinion that labelling the Church of Rome as “the Beast” is counter productive to evangelism.
I have found that the best way to point a Catholic to true christianity is to get them to read the Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit of God to open their eyes. That is what worked in my case. After I became a Christian, statements like the Roman Church being “Babylon” or “the Beast” only made me defensive but I was blessed to have a mentor who taught me to read and study the Word of God.
In the last paragraph of your post you admit that you do not know if the Roman Catholic church is the “beast” but everything you write in the article fuels the speculation. I have read Sliceof Laodicea since February this year and continue to read it occassionally. I would humbly suggest you look more carefully at the other writings of the Reverend Ken Silva. I personally worry about the claims he makes about himself on occassion, but that is another story.
sincerely in Christ, Raymond
PS to Jabbok- if you an interested please take a look at a discussion on TITHING at a blog I share with a few friends, thank you
26. Sailorman
June 13, 2006
11:32 AM
Tim:
It seems Spurgeon also likes the word Scotch:
“Oh! if we had some of the old Scotch preachers! Those Scotch preachers made kings tremble; they were no men’s servants; they were very lords, wherever they went, because each of them said, “God has given me a message; my brow is like adamant against men; I will speak what God bids me.”
27. Brian
June 13, 2006
11:52 AM
If the papacy and the teaching of the Eucharist were not found in Holy Scripture, I’d be likely to agree with Tim.
However, when Catholics believe in Christ’s presence in the bread and wine, they are only taking Him at His word. Read John 6 a few times, and notice how many times He says “my flesh is real food and my BLOOD is real DRINK”. This was after some questioned Him and said they couldn’t accept the teaching. He didn’t correct and say, ‘no, I was only speaking figuratively’. Rather, he spoke even more forcefully in favor of what Catholics believe even to this day.
I know as a Protestant, it seems blasphemous to say that God could take the form of bread. But it was equally scandalous to suggest to 1st Century Jews that God took the form of a man. So, since Jesus taught it so forcefully, is it possibly prideful for us to think “well, God could take the form of a man, but He couldn’t take the form of bread and wine. That’s just too beneath God. I guess it’s okay to believe He took the form of man. But bread and wine? That’s just too much.”
Also, instead of just studying the “Papacy”, I suggest doing a biblical study on Peter. There is a lot there, so it’ll take a while to do a full study. Notice if Jesus treats Peter in any sort of unique way. Notice if the other apostles and Paul treat him uniquely.
Then, do a study to find out if the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura and find out what the Bible teaches is the pillar and foundation of truth. I contend that the Bible does not teach Scripture alone as your only source of knowledge about truth.
Papacy and Eucharist are two very important Catholic doctrines, (not the most important) and they are found in Scripture.
The two most important Protestant doctrines, Faith Alone and Scripture Alone, are not found in Scripture.
In fact, the only place where the words faith and alone are in the same sentence is in James 2 where it is taught we are justified by what we do and “not by faith alone”.
(even if you twist the meaning to say “demonstrate that you are saved” by works, it’s still the only place faith and alone appear together. So faith alone is still not taught anywhere in Bible.)
You would be on much better grounds if you argued that we are saved by grace alone. Grace alone and faith alone is not the same thing. The Bible does teach that we are saved by grace. It does teach that faith plays a primary role (but not faith alone).
(It even teaches that in the absense of an opportunity to do any “works”, such as the thief on the cross, you can be saved by grace through faith. Unless you count the thief’s defense of Jesus to the other criminal as a work.)
Grace is God’s first move toward us.
Faith and works are both our response to God.
Faith without God’s grace making it count for something is nothing.
Works without God’s grace making it count for something is nothing.
“Saving” faith is a gift.
Works that count for anything are also a gift.
Without grace, our works AND faith would be useless.
I could take the time to look up all the verses to support my stances on the papacy and the Eucharist, but since you are all Bereans, I will leave that fun up to you for now. ;-)
28. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
12:11 PM
The bottom line is this - if you want to learn about Catholicism, learn it from Catholic sources. Of course I would believe all sorts of falsehoods about Calvinists if everything I knew about them came from Catholic or Eastern Orthodox sources (but, I was raised in a Reformed Church, so I’m quite familiar with Calvinism). Why do so many evangelical Protestants find it acceptable to learn about the Catholic faith secondhand? There are plenty of Protestants who have actually engaged with Catholic doctrine instead of with a slanderous caricature of Catholic doctrine (like Kevin Johnson at Reformed Catholicism, and Scot McKnight at Jesus Creed). You folks are swinging at straw men.
Lin -
I was not speaking of issues on which the apostles and Fathers had to correct Christians in error. I was speaking of the universal consensus of the Christian Church, both in the East and in the West, until well after 1500. I’m a medieval historian, so I flatter myself that I know of what I speak.
Glenn -
On the issues of baptismal regeneration and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I’m afraid you’re quite wrong to say that they are not taught in the Bible. The relevant references here are 1 Peter 3:20-22 (for baptism) and (for the Eucharist) 1 John 6:52-59, 1 Cor. 11: 23-29, and of course, passages on the Last Supper in the Gospels, in which Jesus says rather plainly that the bread “is” His Body and the wine “is” His Blood, not that they “represent” His Body and Blood.
On the other two issues, of course, neither the Catholic nor the Eastern Orthodox Churches view Church Tradition (which teaches the invocation of the saints and the perpetual virginity of Mary) as contradictory to Scripture, since they have been taught from the beginning. On Mary’s perpetual virginity, I would point you to a series currently being written by Scot McKnight over at Jesus Creed (which is a Protestant blog, so you don’t need to worry about being tainted). He shows persuasively that belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity was widespread (I would say universal) in the Early Church.
29. Donna
June 13, 2006
1:24 PM
“He shows persuasively that belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity was widespread (I would say universal) in the Early Church.”
How early? Not in scripture!
No one refutes that parts of the early church believed this, that does not make it a biblical belief? There are many other things that are not biblical that have filtered in and out of the church (even the early church). The Lord left us scripture for such things. We could go on for days on how many errors crept in with Constantine and mixing paganism with Christianity.
The point is, does scripture support it (not just a verse but scriptures complete revelation as best we know)? Or does the belief make God out to be confused? I think not. If what we believe conflicts with what God has revealed in scripture (especially when it comes to who we pray to, or believing in an extra redeemers and other heresies)…we might want to pray for understanding and go to scripture again).
30. Donna
June 13, 2006
1:28 PM
“The bottom line is this - if you want to learn about Catholicism, learn it from Catholic sources. “
If I want to learn about being a pedofile should I go to a pedofile?
The anser is already in scripture
31. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
3:53 PM
Donna -
First of all, it’s “pedophile.” Secondly, have you ever heard of a logical fallacy?
Look at it this way. Say you wanted to witness to a Catholic. Do you think this person would be at all inclined to listen to you if you insist that s/he believes things that s/he does not, in fact, believe? Don’t you think that would damage your witness? I’m not saying everyone should become experts in Catholic theology. I’m just saying that we Catholics might be inclined to take you more seriously if you made some effort to get your facts straight.
I promised not to hijack this thread with explanations of Catholic doctrine, so I won’t make a lengthy response to your first comment. All you have to do is Google to find a biblical defense of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Also, what do you suppose the Early Church did for the 400 years in which it did not have a set canon of Scripture?
32. Dumpster Juice
June 13, 2006
3:54 PM
When you first establish that the Apostle Peter was never in Rome, then you can begin to understand that Peter was not the founder of the Catholic Church. So who was the “Peter” that founded the Catholic Church? Simon Magus. Davidson’s Hebrew Lexicon show that the consonantal word p-t-r (Peter) means “to interpret”. Simon Magus interpreted early Christianity and adultrated it.
There is plenty of Biblical evidence that Simon Magus was in Rome at the founding of the CC, and none that the Apostle Peter was ever there, ever! Simon Magus was influenced by the miracles that Philip performed and decided to take his Mystery Babylon religion, and adopt some nominally Christian attributes.
33. Tim Challies
June 13, 2006
3:57 PM
“I’m not saying everyone should become experts in Catholic theology. I’m just saying that we Catholics might be inclined to take you more seriously if you made some effort to get your facts straight.”
You know, that’s a valid point, but in my experience (and in this area it is fairly extensive) I have found that I will almost always be told that I don’t understand. I’ve read the Catholic Catechism and have studied Catholicism. I don’t know it backwards and forwards but I do know a lot about Catholic theology (a lot more than most Catholics I meet). And yet when I bring up points against Catholicism I’m almost always told that I don’t understand.
And yes, you may recognize that as the same strategy used by the emerging church folks!
34. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
4:41 PM
Tim -
I’m not suggesting that simply getting facts straight will erase all differences between Catholics and Protestants. The simple fact that no faithful Catholic or Eastern Orthodox could ever accept sola scriptura, and that no faithful Protestant (I don’t include Anglicans) could ever accept the authority of Tradition, makes it impossible for any true understanding to come about apart from actual conversion. So yes, it’s perfectly reasonable that even with your knowledge of Catholicism, Catholics might tell you that you don’t understand their faith. We apply very different hermeneutic principles to biblical interpretation.
That said, it is immediately obvious to any informed Catholic that several of the commenters in this thread haven’t the faintest notion about Catholic doctrine or Church history. Those are the people to whom my comment was directed.
35. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
4:52 PM
Tim -
Dumpster Juice’s comment is a prime example of the biblical and historical ignorance to which I referred. Simon Magus was universally abhorred by the Early Church and there is no evidence whatsoever that he was a leader of the Church in Rome.
Also, lumping in Catholics with emergent folk is the kind of rhetorical move that is really beneath you. Never mind the fact that plenty of evangelical Protestants completely sweep aside any objections that a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox might raise to their faith. You’re perfectly willing to consider one particular biblical interpretation shared by the Reformers (i.e., that the Catholic Church is the Beast) because it aligns with or does not contradict your understanding of Christianity. But you completely dismiss out of hand the fact that the Reformers all practiced infant baptism and despised Anabaptism, or the fact that most of them continued to believe that Mary was perpetually virgin, or that they retained some measure of belief in the Real Presence. You adopt metaphorical interpretations of Scripture where Christians for over a millienium and a half had adopted a literal interpretation (baptism, communion). And when Catholics point all of these things out, you just point a Bible at them without ever engaging with the fact that sola scriptura is a historical innovation which no one in the Church believed for 1500 years!
36. Dumpster Juice
June 13, 2006
6:28 PM
diablaazul-
http://www.historicist.com/articles2/peter.htm
“no evidence whatsoever”, this is only a sample of “no evidence whatsoever” for those whom care to investigate.
37. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
7:33 PM
Tim - apologies for the digression which is about to follow.
Dumpster Juice - Linking to a site that is full of errors and logical fallacies is hardly “evidence” for an argument that no credible scholar, Catholic or Protestant, buys.
1) Peter did not have to be in Rome in order to be the first pope. In case you didn’t know, the papacy was actually situated in Avignon, France for some time during the Middle Ages. A number of popes have had to flee Rome for their own safety. Their physical absence from Rome does not mean that they ceased to be popes.
2) No Catholic disagrees that Paul was the first apostle to preach in Rome. The See of Rome is actually known as the See of Peter and Paul. Both Catholics and Eastern Orthodox recognize that Jerusalem, not Rome, was Peter’s first See.
3) The site you linked to claims that Peter was in Babylon at the end of his ministry rather than Rome. The only problem with this theory? Babylon did not exist - not as a metropolis, anyway - in AD 66. In fact, it hadn’t existed as a city for over 200 years. Protestant and Catholic scholars alike believe that Peter’s reference to “Babylon” in 1 Pet. 5:13 is a reference to Rome. It was fairly common for Christians of the time to refer to Rome as Babylon. This, coupled with the tradition of the Church, offers us a pretty good clue that Peter was in fact in Rome at the end of his ministry.
4) It has been the teaching of the Church from very early on that Peter was martyred in Rome. Clement of Rome wrote in the late 1st century that Peter was crucified in Rome during the reign of Nero. Clement wrote 30 years after the death of Peter. So who should I believe? A shoddily researched website, or someone who lived within a generation of Peter? Hmmmm … . tough call.
38. Brian Thornton
June 13, 2006
8:10 PM
Wow, Tim…if I didn’t know any better, I’d say this was becoming quite a platform for Catholic apologetics.
39. Tim Challies
June 13, 2006
8:15 PM
“Wow, Tim…if I didn’t know any better, I’d say this was becoming quite a platform for Catholic apologetics.”
Strangely, that doesn’t bother me a whole lot. I’ve got nothing to fear and nor should any other well-read Protestant!
40. diablaazul
June 13, 2006
10:42 PM
Like I said, I have no desire to get into lengthy debates over Catholic theology in this thread. I am under no illusions whatsoever that anything I say in this context will persuade anyone, one way or the other.
It’s just very hard to keep one’s mouth shut when someone is perpetuating a bald-faced lie against one’s faith, as Dumpster Juice did, or when someone uses straw men arguments and logical fallacies as weapons against that faith. I think most reasonable people can relate to that.
And certainly no Christian has anything to fear from the Truth, and even less to fear from lies.
41. Allan
June 14, 2006
12:33 AM
Diablaazul said;
(Quote)’As a lifelong Protestant (until recently), I found myself shocked at how much I could agree with in the Catechism.’(unquote)
You must have read a ‘different translation’ than the one on the Catholic web-site Diablaazul! - (or you were not really a Protestant at all, at least not by doctrine!)
42. Joel
June 14, 2006
1:42 PM
John MacArthur recently preached on the pope and the papacy.
Here’s the link:
http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=230597
Here is his summary statement:
Oh, they’ve got a clever system. How to preserve error. How to perpetuate error. Make heresy infallible. And the arch heretic unassailable, ir-reformable and absolutely authoritative. It is possible that the final Antichrist could be a Pope because the final Antichrist will be a dominating world leader. He will be not subject to any other world leader. He will be an imitation of Christ, an anti-Christ, a pseudo-Christ. He will have international power. He will be a Gentile. And his system seems, in the book of Revelation chapter 17, to be headed up in Rome. If the Pope can fool evangelicals, it seems to me that the Antichrist won’t have much trouble doing the same with the world.
43. Brian
June 14, 2006
2:51 PM
Joel,
Sorry, John MacArthur has zero credibility on the topic of Catholicism. As a Catholic, it’s not worth my time to consider anything he’s got to say. A friend once e-mailed me a link to a sermon from MacArthur asking me to comment. The sermon was entitled “Roman Catholic Mary Worship”.
MacArthur needs to be reminded of the commandment, “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” In the sermon, he says that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit and had no human father, just like Jesus. MacArthur is not to be trusted as an expert on what the Catholic Church teaches. If he was, he would know what the Immaculate Conception teaches. It does NOT teach that Mary didn’t have a human father. She was conceived just like anyone else, but at the moment of her conception, God saved her from original sin and her own sin. If he is not informed on this very basic issue, then why should I trust that he’s made an honest effort to find out what the Cath. Church actually teaches about Mary or the papacy or anything else.
So my friend follows up with another MacArthur link. In that link, he says the Catholic church denies the universal priesthood of all believers. Again, not true. When every Cath. is baptized, there is a part of the baptism that talks about their role as priest, prophet, and king. The ordained priesthood does not take away from our priesthood as a regular Christian. It adds to it. Of course, maybe that’s too in depth for MacArthur to take the time to read about and understand.
This is all in the Catechism and easy to learn about if there is an honest desire to understand.
44. Brian
June 14, 2006
3:58 PM
Alas, I did go to the MacArthur link above and found more misrepresentations of what Catholics believe.
I also found an interesting quote of his and I’d like to demonstrate the kind of selective quoting that MacArthur uses against the Catholic Church. Watch while I accurately quote MacArthur but misrepresent what he is saying:
“It conducts a horrific exaltation of Mary above Christ and even God.” - John MacArthur
It is clear by this statement that John MacArthur does not believe that Jesus is God! Anyone who believed that Jesus was God would not need to say that the Catholic Church exalts Mary above Christ and EVEN God. For by saying she’s exalted above Christ, would be saying that she was exalted above God. Blasphemy! It’s sad to see that MacArthur denies the divinity of Christ and has millions of deluded followers, such as Joel above, who also have been deceived to disbelieve in the Trinity.
Okay - back to reality….
I don’t think MacArthur does this on purpose. I just think he is VERY sloppy in his study of Catholicism and he lets his prejudices cloud what he reads.
45. Pastor Ken Silva
June 14, 2006
4:59 PM
Hello Tim,
Thank you for your correct assessment of my position re. this post which is no longer available. I am grateful also for your permission to use it in this series I’ve just begun at Apprising Ministries.
“What Has Changed Regarding Roman Catholicism?” : http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/06/what_has_change.html
I offer encouragement that the Lord will bless you for your stand Tim. :-)
46. SFBaptist
June 15, 2006
11:05 AM
“The Catholic church has many serious problems, but they’ve come a long way since the reformation.”
You are so right… the Whore of Babylon has found people to make her statues bigger, her Rosaries of more expensive materials and her interactions with other apostates and unregenerate sinners more intimate. Before the Second Vatican Council, the Whore was only adept at broadcasting her own unique heresies; now, since Vatican II and especially since the sinful reign of Karol Wotyla, she has taken to linking arms publicly with heretics of every stripe, from the un-orthodox ‘Jew’ to the animists and even the homos.
Yes, friend, they HAVE come a long way… they have gotten even worse, as if that were possible.
47. Bill Gnade
June 15, 2006
11:14 AM
I have found some of the comments on this particular blog entry some of the very worst things I’ve read regarding Catholicism; and this on a Christian website. Assuming that Catholicism is the enemy of the true church (no doubt the ‘true church’ is composed of many folks here), how does Christ tell us we MUST treat our enemies? Certainly not the way many people are demonstrating in this thread of comments. As I’ve said elsewhere, orthodoxy without love is not orthodoxy.
Let us jettison virtually anything the reformers have to say about Rome. They spoke with such pugnacity because Rome stood in their way. Moreover, let us ignore Martin Luther, whose theological objectivity was disproven the moment he began to reject huge portions of the New Testament canon because they did not fit in with his protestantism: he knew that James, for instance, not only defied his paradigm but bolstered the Catholic Church.
Anyone paying the slightest attention to world events sees that the most reviled (perhaps) institution in the world is the Catholic Church. Why? Well, it is largely reviled because it is the only intransigent bulwark against the ordination of women, and the promotion of homosexuality, abortion, infanticide and euthanasia. In other words, the political progressives of this planet (you know this if you are paying attention) upbraid and villify the Catholic Church at every turn. And they believe that if the Church topples, the earth will finally be free. It is Martin Luther par excellence. (And only those evangelicals on the political and theological right who align themselves with Rome are listed as the most feared and loathed of the Religious Right among Protestant believers.)
Of course, to the Roman Catholic Church, it is the “reformed Protestants” who are anti-Christ (or at least come perilously close to it). After all, it is Protestantism that has given the world Christian nihilism; it is the Protestant Church that has disfigured the body of Christ, setting denomination against denomination; setting up little popes in pulpits proclaiming personal inerrancy and infallibility in “rightly dividing the word of truth.” Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarianism, The United Church of Christ, Shelby Spong and a gay Episcopal bishop: These are Protestantism’s gifts to the “true church”.
Here are a few questions to consider: Are Protestants infallible and inerrant in their understanding of the infallible and inerrant Scriptures? If so, why dismiss papal infallibility? If not, then what are the Protestant mistakes; what errors have Protestants embraced, and continue to embrace, and how do we recognize them? Who here wants to come forward and detail their theological errors and heresies? Or should I conclude from the silence that everybody here has his or her theology in order? Come now. Who can list what they have wrong? Or does no one here think they have anything wrong? (Does this not prove that Christians ASSUME infallibility?)
Moreover, if Christ is indeed the head of the Church, and if the Bible is the only rule of faith for a believer, then one must ask two things: Did Jesus Christ Himself tell you that you MUST NOT be a Roman Catholic, and where in the Bible does it tell you that Catholicism is not for “true believers”? You see, one cannot have it both ways. If Christ is the only head of the Church then the only thing you should be heeding is Him; and if the Bible is the sole guide of faith then the only thing you should be basing your anti-Catholic position on is what the Bible explicitly says on this matter. And if the Bible is not explicit here, then how is it that God and the Apostles could be so quiet, so subtle and nuanced, about whether the Church of Rome (and not the Church of Geneva or Canterbury) is the BEAST?
Peace of Christ to you all.
BG
48. Jerry Morningstar
June 15, 2006
2:13 PM
A good pro-catholic work out is titled Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. I found myself strengthened in my protestantism after reading it. He quotes one particularly flawed doctrine on Mary: ‘Mary is the mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What this means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession … through God’s will, grace is not conferred on anyone without Mary’s cooperation. True, Scriptural proofs for this are lacking.’ [Catholicism and Fundamentalism, p. 279]
If this is true Catholic teaching - which I think most Catholics agree it is - can anything be more disturbing and unbiblical?
Keating talks about the presuppositions of the fundamentalist. What about the presuppositionisms of the Catholic. If the church teaches it - it must be true. The reality is that Luther - Huss and others would never have questioned the ‘traditions’ - if they hadn’t found them to be in such glaring contradiction to the Scriptures which the same church held to be the Word of God.
Keating also makes the often used argument against salvation by grace through faith alone. The argument is that ‘For fundamentalists it makes no difference how one lives or ends his life.’ [p. 167]
That was not true of the reformers nor is it true of a good portion of Protestants today.
Calvin: ‘faith alone saves but the faith that saves is not alone’ [Institutes] - meaning it bears the fruit of good works.
‘Christ justifies no one whom he does not also sanctify’
They found this to be the perfect balance of Eph. 2:8-10
When Jesus confronted the Pharisees - he often took them back to the book. He said, ‘Is this not why ye err - that ye understandeth not the Scriptures?’
He Himself established the pattern that led to Sola Scriptura. Let us follow Him lest we be guilty of invalidating the Word of God by holding to our traditions.
Psalm 119:18
49. GWilly
June 15, 2006
5:49 PM
To any Catholic in the room,
What does ‘perpetual virginity’ mean? The Bible makes at least two references to Jesus’ brothers. Tradition also teaches that a James (the one who wrote the book) was Jesus’ brother. So ‘perpetual virginity’ must be some kind of metaphor, right?
50. Brian
June 15, 2006
6:30 PM
GWilly,
Very quickly, gotta run….
Perpetual Virginity does mean Mary remained a virgin throughout her life, not just until Jesus’ birth.
There are two explanations for the references you cite.
1. Original language usage studies (Aramaic, Greek) allow for use of brothers for those who are actually cousins. Greek does have a word for cousins, but the explanation is more involved than that. Also, James is named later in the Gospels as being the son of not Mary the mother of Jesus, but Mary the wife of Clopas, (if I’m remembering this right.)
2. Some Church fathers maintained that Joseph had children from a previous marriage and was a widower. In this case, the brothers mentioned would be Jesus’ step-brothers.
51. Jeff D
June 15, 2006
6:44 PM
In response to Brian Thornton: I was wondering if there is any evidence against dual fulfilment of revelation (or that passage specifically).
GWilly: ‘perpetual virginity’ is literal, meaning that Mary remained a virgin. The ‘brothers’ of jesus would be taken figuratively from a Catholic perspective. (formerly roman catholic)
52. rick
June 16, 2006
6:19 PM
“Marriage” is not consummated unless sexual unity takes place. The new testament even says that Joseph did not “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary UNTIL after the child Jesus was born. The greek here implies emphatically that Joseph waited UNTIL after Mary gave birth to Jesus, before Joseph consummated their marriage. Those who would claim that Mary the mother of Jesus was a “perpetual virgin” her entire life, are essentially saying there existed no marriage between Joseph and Mary, thus making “Jesus” of such “Mary” , a bastard child.
53. Jerry Morningstar
June 16, 2006
6:54 PM
I agree Rick
It sure would have been a weird marriage for the home in which Jesus grew up in. We better add Joseph to the list of those born without sin - he would need to be perfect to survive that kind of marriage. However - I think God’s view of a healthy marriage is more reflected in I Corinthians 7. It is interesting that one characteristic of cults is bizarre views and practices of human sexuality. e.g. David Koresh and his multiple wives - Heaven’s Gate and the prohibition of sex.
54. Brian
June 19, 2006
3:53 PM
Oh give me a break, Rick.
So was Jesus a “b*****d” child during Mary’s recovery from birth until she supposedly consummated with Joseph? How long do you think that was, 6 weeks? Obviously, Joseph and Mary consummating was not a requirement for saying anything about Jesus’s status as the Son of God.
I should beg God’s forgiveness for bringing up such idiotic talk of whether or not and when Joseph and Mary consummated in order to fulfill your definition of not being a bastard child. And I very much hesitate to put Jesus name in the same sentence as b*****d but it’s the best way to point out your error.
55. Brian
June 19, 2006
4:09 PM
Jerry Morningstar,
I’m sorry, but I think you might not be aware that within the Judeo-Christian world, it wasn’t the Catholic Church that even came up with the idea of living as a consecrated virgin. It predates the Christian church, although both Jesus and Paul speak favorably of it.
It was not unusual in the Jewish culture of that time for virgins to consecrate themselves to God and for such virgins to be betrothed to widowers, for example. Often the widowers had already had children with their first wife, but a commitment between a widower and a consecrated virgin provided well for both parties. Perhaps the widower had young children that needed care, and the virgin would likely need protection. They were holy relationships, dedicated to God.
So was Judaism at that time a cult too, or just the Catholic Church gets lumped into the Koresh types in your book?
When you study it more deeply, you can see that the Catholic Church is not prudish about sex. Rather, it has the highest view of sex of any institution. It also most highly regards people’s ability to master sex through God’s grace, not be mastered by it. So that sex is the servent to the marriage, and the individual is not a slave to sex. If you doubt me, read what JPII teaches about sexuality in Theology of the Body. Or how he taught about the beauty of simultaneous orgasm of husband and wife in the book “Love and Responsibility”. He certainly had a healthy view of sex, based on the teachings of the Bible and the Catholic Church. If you only knew what the he and others in the Cath. Church taught, you’d see how off the mark and unnecessary your comment about Koresh was.
56. Dallas Pymm
June 19, 2006
7:42 PM
Brian. I know you do not agree with some of the words in Rick’s post, but his point is valid. How do Catholics get around Matthew 1:24-25?
“When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. “
It seems that verse 25 clearly indicates that Joseph abstained from relations with Mary UNTIL she had given birth. Do you see how this would be a great road block to this doctrine Catholics hold?
I am not in any way trying to antagonize you, I am just pointing out a solid argument that Mary and Joseph did consummate and have traditional marriage to the glory of God.
57. Jerry Morningstar
June 19, 2006
10:18 PM
Brian - I appreciate your thoughts. I do - however - stand by my conviction that the Catholic church has weird views on sex. The celibacy of the priesthood requirement is one example. I think that the church’s whole problem with child molestation is due in part to this faulty and unbiblical doctrine. These men are told that God will give them the grace to handle celibacy - but many of them turn into child predators. I personally think it’s high time the church takes a little responsibility for this and looks at their own theological views on singleness and celibacy. Don’t get me wrong - i think singleness and celibacy is considered a godly lifestyle in the Scriptures. But it is a lifestyle described by Paul as a gift in I Corinthians 7. In I Cor. 7:9 - Paul wrote: ‘If you do not have self-control - it is better to marry than to burn.’
i.e. - Most people don’t have the gift of celibacy. Marriage is the only righteous outlet for the expression of sexual desire. Jesus did teach that some can choose singleness [be made eunuchs] for the kingdom of God - but the same Jesus also said, ‘whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble - it would be better for him to be cast in the sea with a heavy millstone about his neck.’ [Mark 9:42] That doesn’t sound too good. I think marriage would be a far better state for many of the priests rather than scarring these poor young boys. Paul says that Peter was married according to I Cor. 9:5. Did Mary remain a virgin in marriage to Joseph? It really doesn’t matter a whole lot to me if she did. I don’t see that as evidencing a greater spirituality. What I do see is that it goes against the biblical norm for marriage and as a pastor if i were counseling a couple and the wife said she was not having sex with her husband - I would tell her she was in sin. That issue is huge in marriage counseling. That kind of relationship is not reflective of what the Scriptures describe as a healthy marriage. So - - - if the relationship is neither normal, healthy nor founded on any scriptural support - in fact the Scriptures point to the fact of Jesus having brothers [Mark 3:32] - the burden of proof lies with the Catholic church to prove the doctrine.
In fairness to the Mary of the Scriptures - I believe she was a godly woman chosen for an incredible role in God’s program. A woman [Eve] was instrumental in the Fall and a woman [Mary] was used to bring the Savior into the world. I see some poetic justice in that. Protestants - I think are rightly puzzled at where all these extra Mary doctrines came from - and what they are supposed to accomplish. They seem to be used to place Mary in a greater and greater role to where she is a co-mediator and co-redemptrix, etc. We can’t buy that - not based on the authority of the catholic church which is pretty much what Karl Keating falls back on - when scripture arguments are lacking. I did appreciate your thoughts - and I should be more careful in throwing David Koresh’s name around. I apologize for that. You made me think of David and Abishag in the OT - I don’t know if she would have been considered a full wife or not. They didn’t consumate the marriage physically - but I don’t think it was for the lack of trying. [yeee - that’s enough on that!] God’s grace be with you
58. Vynette
June 19, 2006
10:22 PM
THE BEAST OF REVELATION
Tim,
I might as well get back on topic and throw a bit more fuel on the fire.
Interpretation of Revelation Chapters 12-18 hinges on the correct identification of two main opponents. These are:
a woman arrayed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
a harlot with ‘Bablyon the Great’ written on her forehead, carried by a scarlet-coloured beast.
This identification is not as complex as one might think. The woman ‘arrayed with the sun’ is the nation of Israel. In Genesis 37:9-10, the twelve tribes of Israel are described with exactly the same symbols. (Jews represent only 2 of these 12 tribes - the other 10 were not in Palestine when Revelation was written.)
The ‘scarlet beast’ of Revelation is what may be described as ‘Latinism’ - a state modelled in its constitution and administrative system upon the Imperial Latin State, with its own legal system and courts, and maintaining (until recently) its services, records and literature in the official language of the imperial model.(The Holy Roman Empire was a classic re-vivification of the Latin world-empire of the Caesars).
In Revelation Chapters 12-18, this ‘beast’ of Latinism is characterised as:
an authoritarian mentality based on a master-slave relationship,
with as many faces as are necessary to achieve its purpose,
which always insists on the principle of compulsive power as the final (if not first) resort in religious and secular fields of life,
relentlessly endeavouring to impose its own image on the world,
subscribing traditionally to universal rule,
and the uniting of mankind in one world-embracing state,
by whatever machinery is necessary,
be it the pagan state or the church state,
and using as its instruments its military or religious leaders.
According to Revelation:
the policy of the ‘beast’ is to oppose Israel and Israel’s Messiah
the ‘beast’ has an administrative arm
the adminstrative arm is described as a religious organisation and a ‘harlot’
this religious organisation has arrogated to itself the role properly belonging to 12-tribed Israel.
Readers - judge for yourselves! But…need you be reminded that although “an authoritarian mentality based on a master-slave relationship” may be typified by one particular religion, it is by no means confined therein.
59. Brian
June 20, 2006
12:31 AM
Jerry & Dallas,
Thank you both for your comments. I will try to comment more completely tomorrow, I’ve got some connection problems right now.
A couple of quick thoughts on Jerry’s comments is that in the Catholic Church in America in particular, there have been problems in the discernment process set up for priests and in the priestly formation pgms. You are right, not all are called to celibacy, and it’s a bad idea to be celibate if God is calling you to marriage. Just as it’s a bad idea to get married if God is calling you to the celibate life, as He clearly does call some people.
The RCC teaches that the call to priesthood and the call to celibacy are really two different things. If you think you want to be a priest, you should first discern whether you are called to celibacy. Only then, would you discern whether the way you should live out your celibacy is as a priest. There is also the opportunity to be a layman consecrated virgin, a monk, a friar, a brother, etc.
You are correct that in the history of the RCC, there have been married priests, Peter was married, etc. Even today there are married RCC priests. (Lutheran and Anglican priests who are married before they convert to RCC are allowed to be RCC priests.) The Eastern Rite Catholic Churches also ordain married men. At the same time, there has always been a celibate contingent in the Church. At some point, the Latin Rite (RCC) decided to primarily draw her priests from the pool of celibate men already in the Church. This is a church discipline, if you will, not a doctrine. Perhaps someday the RCC will revert back to allowing married priests.
But this is different than “forbidding marriage” as some characterize the RCC as doing. No one is forbidden from being married. You just can’t then also claim a “right” to be a priest. BTW, you could join an Eastern Rite, like the Byzantine Catholic Church, be married and be a priest and still be fully in union with the Catholic Church and the pope. The RCC is just one, albeit the largest, of multiple Rites within the Catholic Church. So no one is forbidden from marriage.
Think of this advantage for single women, in particular. As a pastor, I’m sure you know of single women who spend their whole lives on hold until they can get married. While most will get married, the reality is some won’t. Worse, unfortunately there are often more godly single women around than godly single men, so some women (and men can make the same mistake) will settle for marrying a non-Christian or a very weak sinful Christian. What if those women were called to consecrated virginity? You quoted vs. 9, but vs. 9 is the “but” of the statement. The primary part of the passage is vs. 7 & 8: “I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But….”
Jesus says in Matthew 19 “the one who can accept this SHOULD accept this.” It’s pretty clear that there is such a thing as a call to celibacy from God. So where is this being lived out in the Protestant world? If a young woman did indeed have a call to be a consecrated virgin, how would she be supported to live that out in the Protestant world? Most singles are in the praying and waiting for a spouse stage, waiting to feel like their life has REALLY begun. Even if a single did sense that call and seek to live it out, they’re constantly hounded by parents or aunts or friends “so when are you going to settle down?” or set them up or what have you. Their call to lifelong celibacy wouldn’t have an opportunity to be supported by their church in any tangible way. At least that’s my experience during my years as a Protestant single throughout my 20’s.
Now, I’m in the Catholic circles and I know young men and women who have answered the call to the celibate life and they are just as happy and fulfilled as my married friends, if not moreso. Moreover, most religious orders have a staged commitment. First you commit for 1 yr. Then 3, then 7yrs, then final vows or some version of that. So you can discern the celibate religious life for a year or two. Many do that and leave and do get married. Others commit for life. But it’s a legitimate option that is very spiritually nourishing for many of my friends. It gives you another option for living out a vocation of love, very complimentary (not opposed) to the vocation of marriage.
After I converted back to the RCC, I had a few months where I was convinced I was going to be a priest. Eventually, I discerned that God was calling me to marriage. I’m now married with 2 kids. I’d still like to be a priest. If RCC did open up the priesthood to marrieds, I’d be first in line. But, learning what I have about the value of the celibate life, I do NOT think that would be a good move for the RCC at this time.
60. Jerry Morningstar
June 20, 2006
6:57 AM
Brian - thanks for your thoughts. I do agree there is a legitimate place for the single life in God’s program. I think it is also fair to say that Protestants are not typically good at supporting such a lifestyle. I think it shows that we all have to remind ourselves to be biblically balanced in our views. To not go to the extreme where we forbid marriage and unduly elevate singleness - nor where we fail to see the legitimate value of singleness as stated clearly in I Corinthians 7. Good word.
61. Brian
June 20, 2006
3:52 PM
Dallas,
Great question.
The way you have interpreted the “until” clause in Matt 1:24,25 is indeed the most common usage today and in the Bible. However, it’s not exclusively used in that way.
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23).
Certainly she didn’t have any children after her death.
also
“The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.” Gen. 8:5
Obviously, the waters continued to recede even after the 10th month.
In depth study of the question, figuring out who all the relatives of James was in the Bible, for example, actually lends very strong evidence that the James who is considered the brother of the Lord actually could NOT have been Jesus’ biological brother and the son of the Blessed Virgin Mary if you believe in the inerrency of Scripture. He was more likely the son of Mary & Clopas. Extra biblical evidence shows that Clopas was a brother of Joseph, which furthers the possiblity of “cousins”.
This link is a very long explanation, but it covers all the bases.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
What I find lends credence to the idea that Mary was a consecrated virgin within a “protective custodial” marriage arrangement is her question to the Angel Gabriel upon his annunciation. She asks, “how can this be, since I am a virgin?” (I always wondered why her response was portrayed positively, but Zecharias was chastened a bit by the angel when he asked for assurance.) If Mary had intended to consumate her marriage to Joseph as soon as they were married, why would that question come to her mind? Wouldn’t she just assume that the natural course of events would cause her to be with child as prophesied? But if she was a consecrated version, who intended not to consumate, then the question is natural.
62. Brian
June 20, 2006
5:18 PM
Jerry,
If you’ve stayed with me until now on my long posts, I appreciate it. I also very much appreciate our mutual exchange. You make excellent points.
I wanted to follow up on the priest child molestation problem. I maintain that celibacy is not the problem.
First, let me say that the acceptable number of priest abusers is zero. There’s no excuse for what happened. I wish the RCC in America was dealing even more harshly with the criminal priests. At the same time, it’s important to protect an innocent priest if the charge is not true.
When you look at the percentage of priests who have abused children, the number is not out of line with other professions. That is not an excuse, the percentage SHOULD be ZERO. But it indicates that celibacy is not the cause of the sinful predatory behavior. If celibacy was the problem, there would be a higher pct. H.S. teachers having sex with students has been in the news a lot lately. But no one is saying, “It’s unhealthy for teachers to be around 20 - 30 teenagers who are supposed to be focused on the teacher for 5 to 7 hours per day.” And, it also shows the double-standard the priest profession is enduring right now. Knowing the pct. of teachers abusing students is similar to the pct. of priest abusers, do you think the level of suspicion one views the average school teacher has gone up in proportion with the level of suspicion many good wonderful innocent priests face?
Two things (at least) have brought the priest abuse to a higher level of awareness. One is that priests in the past have enjoyed a higher respect and status. Even further reason why the scandal of priest abuse is so horrible and damnable. The other is the media. Now, I don’t blame the media. God bless the media for making it such a big news story. It was the only thing that shook the hierarchy up enough to take some serious steps. But, the effect is that it does create a perception that it is common. Just like news coverage of child abductions cause the general public to think that child abductions occur more often than they really do.
Lastly, we have a big problem in some sectors of the church that is being addressed to some degree, but not enough I fear. That problem is a correct identification of the priest scandal. What caused it? First of all, it is not a pedophile problem as many describe it. Psychology defines pedophilia as a disorder where one is attracted to pre-pubescent children. Most of the abuse occurred to boys post-puberty. The John Jay study showed that 80% of the abuse occurred on post-pubescent males. ( I assume the other 20% is made up of teenage girls and boy and girl children.) That falls under a different category in psychology. It would be too simple to just label that 80% a homosexual problem, it’s more than just that. It also has to do with accessibility to victims, and priests often spent more time with teenage boys than girls. But that’s a huge white elephant in the room that too many in the church are ignoring.
In a couple of seminaries at least, the homosexual influence got so bad that straight seminarians didn’t feel welcome in seminary and would leave. That will increase the pct. of homosexual priests when hetero’s are driven out.
It’s not fair to blame the scandal just on homosexual priests, there is much more to it than that. But enforcing the ban on ordaining homosexuals (which has always been in place) would be a gigantic step in the right direction.
Think of this as well…. if it’s just a matter of not being to control your natural sexual urges, priests could always take off their collar, go out and seduce a woman at a bar or hire a prostitute. Some do unfortunately. But that would be the most likely acting out of someone trying to live the celibate life who was not called to it. I was a single man throughout most of my twenties and remained a virgin until I was married. I had sexual urges there in the prime of my life. It never made me want to abuse a teenage boy as a way to deal with it.
63. Dallas Pymm
June 20, 2006
5:40 PM
Thanks for the reply Brian.
“it’s not exclusively used in that way.” that maybe so, but why would the writer not specify that he knew her not until his or her death? Instead, he writes specifically that he knew her not until she gave birth to Christ. If it was used in the manner you suggest it would make sense that the writer would have said Joseph knew her not until she gave birth, and did not even up to his death.
Also, if Mary was supposed to be a consecrated version (just a little joke on your new way to spell it) why would the writer even need to specify this? If their marriage was indeed a “protective custodial” marriage, to say that he never knew her would be quite unnecessary.
As far as Mary’s response to Gabriel, it would be natural for her to respond how she did either way. There is no reason to think Mary assumed this would take place after she was married. It seems Gabriel made it clear some how that this would take place sooner than she would be married, and she responded appropriately.
Scripture also is very clear that husbands and wives should not refuse each other sexual rights unless they are in a time of fasting, and it is also clear that this time of fasting should end with them coming together. So it would seem that to be in a marriage like the one you put forth would indeed go against God’s standard for marriage.
64. Jerry Morningstar
June 20, 2006
8:00 PM
Brian - I appreciate your thoughts and i do think that it is a good thing the Catholic church is addressing the abuse issues. I also think they have to for PR purposes. I do think you would be more qualified to shepherd a flock than the vast number of ‘celibates’ trying to do the job. In I Peter 5 - Peter tells the elders [presbuteroi] to shepherd the flock of God. He refers to himself as a fellow elder - so we are talking about church leadership. [Other examples of elder leadership would be Paul calling the elders of Ephesus in Acts 20:17 and writing to the elders and deacons at Philippi [Phil. 1:1,2]. Paul in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 lays down the qualifications for church leadership [episcopoi, presbuteros]. Significantly in both texts family leadership is mentioned [I Tim. 3:4 and Titus 1:6]. The overseer is to manage his own household well - evidenced to some degree in his children. He has to have children who are not riotous and unruly, etc. My point being that - while I certainly would agree wholeheartedly with you that the single life is presented as a favorable option - I do think that the norm for church leadership seems to be ascribed to married men. I don’t think Paul excludes single men from leadership - [Charles Simeon was an old Anglican worthy who was single] - but it does seem that the norm is going to be men who are earthly fathers. It seems highly significant that in the 2 great texts defining the qualifications of church leadership - the single life is not even mentioned. I think the priesthood sex scandals - while certainly being a sin issue - may also be a systemic issue within the doctrine of the church.
65. Brian
June 20, 2006
11:23 PM
Dallas,
My only response to why the writer didn’t specify a lifelong virginity in this passage is that it is not the question at hand. The question is God as Jesus’ father. I agree that Mary being a virgin at the time of Jesus’ birth is of supreme importance. Remaining a virgin after that is not on that level. I just offer some ways it does benefit me as a Catholic, and why the Catholic Church could hold both that doctrine and hold onto belief in the inerrency of Scripture. Whether Mary remained a virgin is nothing that should divide any Christian from another. The question of inerrency as it relates to Marian doctrines is something that would be of more concern to you, I’m sure. If a non-Catholic didn’t hear those explanations as to how a Catholic would interpret those verses, it would appear that the Catholic didn’t believe in inerrency. However, we do.
I shouldn’t use up more space here, but if anyone is curious, definitely check the links in the post above. Those say it better than I can.
66. Brian
June 21, 2006
12:00 AM
Jerry,
I actually think a fear of bad PR is part of the reason the Church isn’t taking more radical steps I alluded to above. If they addressed the heart of the issue, I believe the hierarchy would be attacked for it by the pro-homosexual influences within the media and activist groups within the church. You can just hear them say “the bishops are shifting the blame and trying to scapegoat homosexuals.” As it is, I don’t think the bishops are being strong enough leaders on this issue.
Me being more qualified that some celibates… ahhh, you wouldn’t say that if you knew the excellent priests I know.
Your point about family leadership is well taken. You stand on some solid verses there. I’m just glad to have a chance to try to clear up some misconceptions about the gift of celibacy. It needn’t be an either/or proposition.
You mentioned Paul didn’t exclude singles from leadership. I should hope not, since Paul himself was (1 Corinth 7:8) and many times said he preferred that men stay single if they can do so in chastity.
Since you are a pastor, let me ask you about v.14. It seems strange under either Protestant or Catholic theology. I haven’t even checked to see what the Catholic teaching on this verse is. I’ve never asked a Protestant their opinion either. “For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.” What’s your understanding?
67. Carrie
June 21, 2006
7:17 AM
This has been an interesting discussion. I grew up Catholic but am now an evangelical/Sola Scriptura/Protestant (never quite sure how to describe myself anymore). I firmly believe the Catholic church has their doctrine wrong and after spending most of my life in the church and having relatives still in the church, I also believe it is a “dead” church.
But it is nice to see some Catholics here who are actually educated on their faith so that an informed discussion can be had. I usually know more Catholic doctrine (which I learned after being saved) than my Catholic family and friends. Unfortunately, I see Catholicism as a moving target (which is easy to be when you rely on things like “tradition”) so it’s hard to pin down the issues.
After reading through the comments it seems to me that all the debates can be boiled down to one main point - Sola Scriptura. If Sola Scriptura is right, then the Catholics have some problems. If Sola Scriptura is not true, well then anything goes I guess as anyone can add on their own tradition or personal revelations in addition to the bible and now Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are all undebateable.
Perhaps we should stop debating with Catholics whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin or with the Mormons whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet and focus on the Bible as God’s one and only authoritative Word. Accept no substitute. Accept no additions.
68. Jerry Morningstar
June 21, 2006
7:35 AM
Brian - interesting thoughts on the PR aspect of the church scandals. I appreciate your perspective as an insider. The homosexual issue is huge. It makes me glad I am in an independent church. My brother-in-law recently left the episcopal church because of the ordination of gays. The verse on the unbeliever being sanctified by the believer, etc. You are right - it is a strange verse! I think the best understanding is that there simply is a blessing to the unbeliever by being married to a Christian - in that they are in a one flesh relationship with someone who is united with Christ. They are exposed to the truth and are in a position to witness the power of Christ in their own home in the life of their spouse. That is a blessed position - and makes good sense considering the context of instructing the believer not to leave the marriage if the unbeliever is willing to stick it out. Children likewise are blessed by having one believing parent - rather than none. They are blessed by the believing parent staying with the unbeliever - because then the children are assured the presence of a believer in their home life. The word ‘holy’ seems to imply more - but it seems impossible from a systematic theology standpoint - to understand the word in reference to salvation. We sort of fall back on our hermeneutics and do not allow a difficult passage to go against the many clear passages that teach that the method of salvation is by grace - operative thru the faith of the individual who trusts in Jesus - His atoning death and resurrection. There seems to be some kind of umbrella of grace over the children of believers. However - they are still required to exercise faith when they are able to comprehend the truth about Jesus and the gospel. This verse may speak more to the children who are not yet able to exercise faith on their own because of age and comprehension level. Lord’s blessings to you,
69. Brian
June 21, 2006
11:31 AM
Jerry,
Thanks for taking the time to comment on that verse. Even though I am Catholic, I value your opinion as a man who has the opportunity and responsibility to study the Word as part of your profession.
Carrie,
Glad you chimed in. You are absolutely correct about Sola Scriptura. If you get a chance to check back later, I’d plan to take some time to post here in response to that.
I also grew up Catholic and experienced the deadness you describe. I was evangelical protestant for 7 yrs. Then God showed me Scripturally why He wanted me at least, to return to the Cath. Church. Now I’m blessed to be in Catholic circles where the Holy Spirit moves and there is life!
Based on my experience, I’d encourage you to learn all you can about what the RCC truly teaches, from good Catholic sources. Not for your sake, but for your families’ sake. You’ll be surprised how close the true Catholic teachings are to what you currently believe. You are right that many Catholics don’t have a good understanding of Scripture or their faith. This will give you a bridge to your family members who are “stubbornly Catholic” for better or worse. Obviously, you view Catholic doctrine as deficient, but this will enable you to bring them closer to Christ (as you understand that) bring you closer together as a family, and you might even learn something too. I guarantee you, that even as a Protestant, you would view TRUE Catholic teaching as bringing people closer to Christ than faulty Catholic teaching…. even though you’d consider both “true” and faulty Cath. teaching lacking.
For instance. True Catholic teaching on salvation is not ‘saved by works’. That’s the Pelagian heresey that was condemned by the Catholic Church in 418 at Council of Carthage. Catholicism is a religion of grace in which faith and works are our response to God. But both our faith and works would be straw or dung without God’s grace. God’s mercy and grace and the cross of Christ is pre-eminant. But many Catholics live essentially closer to Pelagianism than Catholicism.
Calvinists will be happy to hear that Catholic doctrine affirms pre-destination. However, it also affirms free-will. Impossible from a human standpoint, but possible with God. (just like the doctrine of the Trinity, 3 in1. Makes no human sense.)
The RCC encourages Bible study. I believe it was St. Jerome who said “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”. I’ve heard that quote often as a Catholic when being encouraged to study Scripture.
RCC affirms inerrancy of Scripture. Affirms early dates for the NT gospels and epistles.
The Liturgy of the Hours is a Catholic form of prayer that is made up entirely of the Psalms and other Scripture readings. If you live with a Catholic family member, maybe you can suggest praying that together (you’ll need help learning the pattern, but you can find it on the web.) That’s a guaranteed way to get your Catholic family into Scripture reading if they are resisting other efforts at Bible-study you may have initiated.
If you are a charismatic Christian, you can find that in the Catechism too.
The best sources I recommend are the Catechism, Scott Hahn, and Steve Wood. There’s much more but that’s a start.
70. rick
June 21, 2006
1:08 PM
Brian, it seems that you purposely twisted and distorted what I said. I said previously:
“Those who would claim that Mary the mother of Jesus was a “perpetual virgin” her entire life, are essentially saying there existed no marriage between Joseph and Mary, thus making “Jesus” of such “Mary” , a bastard child.”
In my above quote, I purposely put quotation marks around the names of Jesus and Mary, so that the reader would understand that I am referring to a different “Mary” and a different “Jesus”.
According to Catholic Cathechism 1640, it states:
“Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by God’s fidelity. The Church does not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom. “
Now you see we have a major contradiction in Catholic teaching. On the one hand, the Catholic Cathechism teaches that the marriage bond results from the “free human act of the spouses” AND “their consummation of the marriage”. (In other words, if there is no consummation of the marriage, then there is no marriage). The contradiction to this is the fact that Catholic Cathechism teaches that “Mary” was a perpetual virgin and that “Joseph” was a chaste man. Hence, according to Catholic Cathechism 1640 there existed no marriage bond between “Joseph” and “Mary”, meaning further that any child born to “Mary” such as the Catholic version of “Jesus” must be illegitimate, i.e. bastard.
71. Brian
June 21, 2006
1:33 PM
Sorry Rick,
I’m not following you. We both agree that Jesus’ mother is Mary and Jesus’ Father is God the Father.
You don’t even need Joseph in the picture at all when it comes to the legitimacy or illigitimacy of Jesus, as you put it. Joseph being married to Mary doesn’t somehow make Jesus legitimate. You don’t need a relationship of any sort (much less a consummated marriage) between Mary and Joseph to make Jesus a “legitimate” son of Mary. If God chose to, He could have instructed Mary to remain single her entire life.
72. Joel
June 21, 2006
1:39 PM
Brian,
The liturgy of the hours, contains a section on prayer to Mary,
called Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Is there any evidence from Scripture that Mary hears these prayers?
Here’s an example:
“Lord of heaven and earth, you crowned Mary, and set her at your right hand as queen,
make us worthy to share this glory.
May your mother intercede for us, Lord.
All powerfull God, we rejoice in the protection of the holy Virgin Mary.”
73. Brian
June 21, 2006
2:54 PM
Joel,
You are right. I misspoke about the Liturgy of Hrs. There are those types of prayers that a Protestant would be uncomfortable praying. I should have said the Liturgy of Hrs. is made up of primarily (not entirely) of psalms and scripture readings. All but 5 - 10% of it is psalms and scripture I should guess. My bad.
Ironically, the prayer you quoted above would be less problematic because it’s actually addressed to God, not Mary.
Hebrews 12:1 and Rev. 5:8 are two places where Scripture suggests the saints in heaven are aware of our trials and prayers. Although I’d be foolish to try to support this to you just from Scripture. This is one of those things where we don’t rely only on Scripture and the question of Sola Scriptura vs. Scripture & Tradition (orthodoxy) is paramount. It would be fine to say we can’t argue this point if we don’t agree on the authority issue.
In my discussions with Protestants I usually try to limit my support for Catholic doctrines to Scriptural support, because we have common ground there and both accept its authority. It is a handicap for me, though, because we believe we are not limited to Scripture alone.
As someone alluded to above when mentioning Karl Keating’s work, not all Catholic beliefs can be quoted chapter and verse from Scripture. However, I believe it can be shown that those beliefs do not CONTRADICT Scripture. It’s what it is, we can’t pretend that barrier between us is not there.
But here’s an answer from logic. Since intercession for another Christian is a gift you have here on earth, would it make sense to remove that gift once you get to heaven? If you can pray for your family now, and you die and get to heaven, and tried to intercede again for a family member, do you think God would forbid it?
As for how they can hear the prayers, I’d argue Heb 12:1 shows that they can see what’s going on, so it’s logical they could hear. How is this accomplished? Only through being connected with Christ, the head of the body. The Holy Spirit translated languages and made people aware of different needs while they were on earth, how much greater that gift must be in heaven. But if they hear, it’s only through God. Take God out of the picture (and we’d all cease to exist, of course, but) and the saints in heaven couldn’t hear any of the prayers. (John 16:15)
74. rick
June 21, 2006
3:18 PM
Brian, i’m sorry to hear that you cannot follow the logical contradiction regarding the consumation of marriage in Catholic teaching. However, i might be able to help you understand by disecting this one sentence you say:
“If God chose to, He could have instructed Mary to remain single her entire life.”
Well, essentially that is exactly what Catholic dogma is teaching. Thank you for making my point. However, God would never ‘choose’ to do such, anymore than God would ‘choose’ to violate a covenant or anymore than God would ‘choose’ to lie. There are some things that God will simply not do.
Every covenant God ordains and establishes is sealed with blood. The covenant of marriage is no different. A virgin woman who is betrothed will experience bleeding of the hymen when the marriage is consummated, and the bleeding of the hymen is the blood that seals the covenant of marriage. It is totally within the realm of medical science, that when Mary gave birth to Jesus, Mary’s hymen would not have been totally destroyed, thus after the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage and Mary’s hymen would have bled, shedding the blood that sealed the covenant of marriage between Joseph and Mary. Since God sees and judges from an eternal perspective, the only thing that matters is that the consummation of marriage takes place at some point in time in this earthly realm, otherwise there is no marriage between Joseph/Mary in God’s eternal eye. Thus, in God’s eternal eye, Jesus was the legitimate child born to Mary/Joseph since Mary was betrothed to Joseph, because the marriage was ultimately consummated after Jesus was born into this realm.
Without the consummation of the covenant of marriage between Joseph and Mary, then the two bloodlines listed in the gospels are irrelevant and Jesus has no claim to the throne of David, and many more biblical doctrines must be tossed in the garbage as well. So, inasmuch as you would like to believe that the Catholic dogma of the “perpetual virginity” of “Mary” is not very important, just the opposite is true for such dogma strikes at the heart of many biblical doctrines.
75. GWilly
June 21, 2006
3:50 PM
Carrie,
‘Perhaps we should stop debating with Catholics whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin or with the Mormons whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet and focus on the Bible as God’s one and only authoritative Word. Accept no substitute. Accept no additions.’
Unfortunately, you can’t say to a Mormon or to a Muslim, lets just agree that the Bible is the final authoritative word of God, and agree to disagree on the rest. That the Bible is incomplete, or corrupted, is the whole basis on which those false religions (and many more cult-like groups) are built.
76. Brian
June 21, 2006
5:23 PM
Rick,
Sure, I follow that part of it. The question in my mind was, why would you care? You have now elaborated as to why you believe the relationship between Mary & Joseph contributes to the “legitimacy” of Jesus.
77. Brian
June 21, 2006
5:50 PM
GWilly,
Ironic, even before your post I was thinking about the link between heretical groups and the texts they accept, add, remove, etc., and the claim they often make that their faith is the true restoration of what Jesus and the apostles originally taught. JW’s, LDS, and the Reformers all claimed that.
I know Protestants believe Catholics added some OT books, but Catholics believe Protestants removed them. After all, Luther was in a paring-down-the-Bible mood. If he’d had his way, James, Hebrews, and Revelation would have been on the chopping block too. He considered James an epistle of straw. That’s a whopper of a mistake for a theologian whose opinion is so trusted today. Imagine if any Protestant theologian today suggested eliminating a few books of the NT. He’d never get another hearing from faithful Protestant Christians.
I’m not sure if you meant to include Catholics in this statement “That the Bible is incomplete, or corrupted, is the whole basis on which those false religions (and many more cult-like groups) are built.”, but if you did, it’s perfectly within bounds to make that claim. You’d be right to make it if the Catholic faith is ultimately corrupted. But it can also come around and apply equally to the Reformers.
Not trying to cast stones here, just noticing something unique about the Catholic faith. They didn’t come along later and say, “now we’re restoring the true faith that has been lost along the way” like the LDS, JW’s . Rather, they claim to have always held that faith. That doesn’t prove anything, just an observation.
78. Carrie
June 21, 2006
7:05 PM
Gwilly,
Sorry, I’m not following your logic. You seem to be proving my point.
If we can prove that the Bible isn’t corrupted or incomplete (and is the final and only Word of God) then the Muslims and Mormons have no leg to stand on. Therefore, any religion that is not based on biblical truths and no other additional traditions, revelations, or whatever, is a lie.
That’s my point. The cults and other religions either don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists) or they believe that it is not the final Word (Catholics, Mormons, JWs) and there is a need to add to it.
Without agreeing that the Bible is the final authority, it becomes very difficult to argue the more minor points.
79. Vynette
June 22, 2006
8:07 AM
It seems just a trifle irrelevant to be discussing Mary’s ‘perpetual virginity’ when the ‘mother’ doctrine of the ‘Virgin Birth’ is the issue that really needs to be confronted.
With ever-increasing access to information, it will be ever-increasingly obvious to the Protestant faithful that teachings once held dear are nothing but vestiges of paganism that should have been cast out at the time of the Reformation.
Doctrines such as the Trinity, Virgin Birth, and the various ‘divinity’ teachings, impose a barrier between Jesus of Nazareth and the rest of humanity; they misrepresent the values he stood for; they falsify the issues that brought him into collision with the priests; and they conceal the motives of those who caused him to be crucified.
Perhaps it’s not too late - there’s still time for a new Reformation.
80. Brian
June 22, 2006
11:34 AM
Vynette,
Curious if you’d share any religious affiliation you have. I take it you are not a traditional Protestant. I could only guess on a range of possibilities like LDS to a DaVinci Code believer.
81. Brian
June 22, 2006
2:19 PM
A challenge to Sola Scriptura and a defense of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as our authority:
Carrie,
You mentioned above that all disagreements between Protestants and any other group, Catholic, LDS, etc. depend on your position on Sola Scriptura. I agree. From one cradle Catholic to another, have you ever put the claim that Sola Scriptura makes to its own test? Can it be found in Scripture?
The strongest vs. in support of Sola Scriptura is 2Tim 3:15-17. The ‘ALL Scripture is God-breathed’ verses. However, it doesn’t say ONLY Scripture is profitable. One might argue based on the “thoroughly equipped” words that Scripture is all you need. But I believe the verses below preclude that interpretation.
In Matt. 15:3, Jesus condemns man-made tradition that conflicts with God’s teaching and commandment. But this does not apply to all tradition when you note the verses below:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. (NASB 2 Thess 2:15)
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. (1 Corinth 11:2) (this is NASB version, traditions is translated as teachings in NIV. NASB is also a Protestant version and is known to be a more literal translation)
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. (2 Thess 3:6)
Here Paul is commending oral tradition and praising those who adhere to it. Some will say, the tradition he’s speaking of is entirely contained within Scripture, but in Thess. he distinguishes between the two, written and oral.
Ask most Christians what the Bible teaches is the pillar and foundation of truth is and what will they instinctively say? What would you say?
I would have guessed Scripture. But the Bible says it’s the Church.
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)
The RCC does NOT claim any “new” revelation, but rather, further understanding and making clear what has already been revealed:
‘…. And no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.’
(CCC 66)
‘God has revealed Himself fully by sending His own Son, in whom He has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after Him.’
(CCC 73)
“Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out of the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal.” (CCC 80) ie. Scripture and Tradition cannot contradict.
The statements above about no new revelation (CCC 66, 73) are based on Heb 1: 1-2 and echo the first lines of John “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….. and the Word became flesh.”
The last lines in the Gospel of John:
24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
The Bible & Catechism teach that Jesus was the full revelation of all Truth from God. There is nothing new that God needs to tell us that He didn’t tell us with Jesus. This is called the Deposit of Faith. There are two ways that this is passed down to us. One is the Bible. Tradition is everything else.
25”All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14: 25 – 26)
Furthermore, there are things that we take for granted as Christians (Prot. and Catholic) because of Tradition. The Trinity. The dual nature of Christ. Which books actually qualify as Scripture. These things were hammered out in the first few centuries and now just a given for us. If not for these Traditions (or orthodoxy you might call it), every new Christian would have to sit down and study for themselves and see what they believed about the nature of God. Is He really 3 in 1? Was Jesus really a physical human, or just appear human? Does the book of James belong in the Bible, or is it an epistle of straw as Luther said? If it wasn’t for Tradition, there would be as many different opinions within Protestantism for these beliefs as there are about infant/believer baptism, the gift of tongues ceasing or not, how to interpret Revelation, etc.
A great example of how Scripture is not enough is a quote I read from Martin Luther. I can’t find the exact quote right now, but it’s in a book titled “Rebuilding a Lost Faith” by Stoddard. Luther stated that he couldn’t forbid someone from taking more than one wife. He couldn’t forbid, from Scripture alone, bigamy or polygamy. He said he only hoped people would forgo the freedom they had to do it for the sake of avoiding scandal for others. Luther couldn’t do it. Can you strike down bigamy using Sola Scriptura?
82. Vynette
June 22, 2006
2:39 PM
Brian,
I earnestly strive to emulate the example of Jesus of Nazareth. That is my only ‘affiliation’.
I therefore heed his words as recorded in the New Testament, not those of any fable writers.
My goal is the same as his - ‘to bear witness to the truth’ (John 18:37)
83. Dallas Pymm
June 22, 2006
2:39 PM
I found this in an article that defends scripture alone and warns of the dangers of tradition contradicting scripture.
Can traditions contradict God’s completed Word?
Can the scriptures contradict what some allege is ‘oral apostolic tradition,’ and yet that tradition still be of God? The answer of course is a resounding, No! God is not the author of confusion. The undeniable fact is, two infallible God-breathed sources cannot contradict each other. Else, at least one of them is not infallible. That is a fact. Yet God’s Word and Roman catholic church traditions constantly contradict each other. This should alert any faithful student of scripture that one is neither infallible, nor of God. And these are just a few of the myriad of examples..
The Word of God teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4,20), and that all sin is purged and we were purified in Christ, by the cross. Roman catholic traditions teach that sin can be purged later, in a place called Purgatory (place of purifying). This is Heresy!
The Word of God teaches that the office of bishop and presbyter are the same office (Titus 1) but Roman tradition says they are different offices.
The Scriptures of God teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 7:27, 9:28, 10:10), while Roman catholic tradition corrects this, claiming that the Priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at mass.
The Word of God teaches that we should not use vain repetitions in prayers (Matthew 6:7) thinking that we will be heard for our much speaking, while the Roman catholic traditions teach repeating Hail Mary in prayer as penitence ‘as if’ God indeed will hear us for our much repetition.
The Word of God teach that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15), while Roman catholic traditions claim that’s not true, as Mary was also sinless.
The Holy scriptures teaches that all Christians are Saints and Priests (Ephesians 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9), but Roman Catholic tradition has made Saints and Priests special cases and offices within the Christian community, dealt out by their Church leadership.
The Word of God says that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4-5), but the Roman catholic tradition makes no such claim, nor rebukes Christians for this practice.
The Word of God says that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), but Roman catholic tradition claims Mary is co-mediator with Christ.
The Word of God says that Jesus Christ is the Rock upon which the Church rests, the foundation stone, and the Head of the Church (Luke 6:48, 1st Peter 2:7-8, Matthew 16:18), But Roman catholic tradition claims that the foundation Rock of the Church is Pope Peter, and that the pontiff is the head of the Church, an aberration which in effect makes God’s Church, a two headed Church, with multiple authorities and starting foundation.
The Word of God says that all Christians can and should know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13), but Roman catholic tradition says that all Christians cannot and should not know that they have eternal life.
The Reformers understood clearly that the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ to the Pharisees, applied equally to those of their day:
”..thus you have made the commandment of God of non effect by your traditions!” -Matthew 15:6
Any truth to this Brian?
84. Brian
June 22, 2006
5:04 PM
Dallas,
I absolutely agree with the premise that two infallible sources, if they be so, cannot contradict each other.
The article certainly covers a lot of ground and gets back to all the individual disagreements which can’t really be fully dealt with unless you first deal with the authority question. I could say something about each one of them, either where the Catholic position is not understood by the author and misstated, or talk about why Protestants interpret a passage a certain way and why Catholics interpret it another way. If you pick one of the above at a time, I’d be happy to share what I think if you’re interested. To get through them all, we’ll be at this for months.
But to deal with the more immediate issue of whether Scripture and Tradition contradict each other, consider this. The charge by the author is the exact same charge that you face when an atheist attacks the Bible as being fallible. They’ll tell you, the Bible can’t be God’s infallible word because it contradicts itself, then quote you some verses that on the surface seem to obviously contradict. With careful study and knowledge of context, original languages, etc., it’s usually easy enough to answer the supposed contradictions. It’s not something you can give a quick answer to though.
The exact same thing is true when you look at Catholic understanding of how Scripture and Tradition do not contradict.
What I was amazed at during my conversion back to Catholicism is how beautiful and consistent Catholic theology was and how it illuminated the Bible. It was like I’d just gotten new eyeglasses. Many things that were fuzzy in Scripture from a Protestant viewpoint came into focus. For me, the pattern has continued. The more I learn, the more I see how it all fits together, even in the realm of morality. It was a repeat of the experience I had when I first really started to study the Word as a Protestant, just a continuation of that. So I’m sure you and all Christians experience the same thing as you grow in your knowledge of Scripture.
85. Brian
June 22, 2006
5:14 PM
Vynette,
If you don’t mind my asking… do you have any group that you get together with for worship or prayer or accountability?
Also, you said you try to follow his words as recorded in the New Testament. Do you accept all of the Bible as trustworthy, just the NT, just Jesus’ words that are recorded, just the Gospels?
I’m curious because you seem to dismiss a few widely held beliefs, such as the Virgin Birth, which is recorded in the Gospels.
86. Dallas Pymm
June 22, 2006
5:21 PM
Thanks for the reply Brian. It is good to hear the two can not contradict each other. I know the list would take months to get through for the average joe with a family and a job and all. Since we have discussed it previously, I was curious about the following:
“The Word of God says that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), but Roman catholic tradition claims Mary is co-mediator with Christ.”
I have heard this said before and was wondering what the RC’s defense was for this. The only religions I have studied besides my own is Mormonism, and Islam. I have never studied RC and do not want to assume something that may not be accurate.
87. Vynette
June 22, 2006
7:03 PM
Brian,
My position is this:
From Genesis to Revelation, what is laid out for us is the evolution in man’s thinking processes. This process culminates in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. “For the law was a schoolmaster leading us to Christ”.
So, the answer to your second question is that both the Old and New Testaments are useful for our instruction into what the Creator demands of creatures.
I do ‘dismiss’ the doctrines built up around the person of Jesus of Nazareth as they are ‘unscriptural’ and demonstrably so.
My purpose is to rid ‘christianity’ of these accretions, which have caused untold misery and confusion, and press for a ‘reformation’ based on the simple message of the New Testament.
The fact is that the only doctrine preached by Jesus and his disciples was love - love of God and fellow humans - AND OF TRUTH. All else is a sideshow and conceals what must be done to promote the Kingdom of God here on earth.
88. Brian
June 22, 2006
11:03 PM
Dallas,
What one mediator means to me is that all other mediation depends wholly on Christ’s mediation. Any mediation that you or I or the Blessed Virgin Mary does is all dependent on Christ’s mediation would would be worthless without Him.
I looked up mediate in the dictionary and found “to intervene between two or more disputants in order to bring about agreement, settlement, or compromise.” or reconcilation I would add.
I’d say anytime you share the gospel with someone, or pray for their salvation, you are acting as a sort of mediator. “We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.” 2 Corinth 5:20. But, if it wasn’t for the one mediator of Christ, your mediation couldn’t affect anything.
In that sense, to say that Mary is a mediator between God and man would not be as much of a problem for Protestants. There’s a little more to it than that though, which I’ll try to get to in my next post. I think a more difficult word is when she’s described as the ‘mediatrix of ALL grace’. You and I could be a mediator of grace to a person we share the gospel with, but we could never be the mediator of ALL grace. That title elevates Mary above the rest of us, but still not above or even equal to Christ. Part of the elevation deals with the role Mary played in the incarnation of Christ, which made possible our salvation. Since all salvation comes from Christ’s sacrifice, and Mary was the instrument used by God to give birth to Jesus, then Mary played a role in all of our salvation.
89. Brian
June 23, 2006
12:15 AM
Dallas,
Here’s how the Church describes it:
“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation… . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.
“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men … flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it. No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”
969 - 970 Catechism of Catholic Church
90. Carrie
June 23, 2006
7:34 AM
Hi Brian,
I just wanted to answer you. I do believe that the idea of sola scriptura can be supported by the scriptures, but I don’t have all the verses nor do I have the time to make the argument. There are many, many people with theological training online that could rattle off an excellent argument (with verses) in a few minutes but unfortunately I am not one of these people.
I would direct you to this recent post: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/06/how-we-do-christianity-and-reverse.html . If you would like a good defense of sola scriptura, those guys can do it for you and that is a current post so it is likely still active which I’m afraid this post no longer is (as far as commenters).
As far as what Luther said about marriage or the Book of James, I don’t really care. I value nothing any human says unless it holds up against scripture. I don’t think you believe this, but just in case, I will mention that Luther is not the Protestant poster-boy. Can I make an argument against bigamy from the scriptures? Yes, I think I can. Off the top of my head I would go with the qualifications of elders/deacons listed in Timothy and Titus and apply that universally (1Tim3:2, 1Tim3:12, Tit1:6).
Lastly I would just like to give you my own personal/logical issues with the Catholic church. I would much rather debate the issues with scripture, but I don’t have a few free days to read up on Catholic cathecism and then make the opposing arguments. I wish I did, but in all reality I don’t think it would make a difference – you seemed to have convinced yourself.
First, I don’t understand how a faith could be based on tradition b/c tradition is fallible. How could traditions from 2000 years ago not have been perverted somewhere along the way? How would you know? I there is no firm written foundation to base your beliefs off of, how do you know they are true? That just doesn’t make sense to me.
Second, after growing up in the Catholic church and seeing many different church bodies and knowing many Catholic believers, I know that there is a problem with that faith. Just as I don’t need a doctorate in medicine to know when someone is ill, I don’t need to be a theologian or know Catholic cathecism to know when there is something wrong with a church. A religious system that never encourages it’s members to read their bibles, promotes the veneration of Mary (even you keep calling her “The Blessed Virgin” as if she is anything more than human), promotes repetitive prayer, has a leader who is consider at times infallible and has many in leadership positions that are pedophiles – well, those to me are symptoms of a bigger disease.
I could go on but I have wrote WAY too much already. I’m glad that you are at least informed about your faith Brian, but you have said nothing that makes me feel any differently about the Catholic church. Thanks for the discussion.
91. Jerry Morningstar
June 23, 2006
10:07 AM
Brian - I personally think anyone who swallows the traditions of the catholic church is taking tainted Kool-aid without asking any questions.
The reality is - the Catholic church did to the true Christian faith what the Pharisees did to Judaism.
The Pharisees and the Scribes were the religious leaders of Jesus’ day - they were entrusted with the task of teaching the people and interpreting the Word of God.
When Jesus came on the scene - His interaction with them consisted primarily of condemning their system as being off base in contradiction to the Scriptures
One of His key rebukes was that - they in their added traditions effectively set aside God’s Word - putting in its place the Word of man. [Mark 7:6-8]
i.e. for Jesus - the Word of God trumped the Word of man in every setting. He taught the principles that led to Sola Scriptura
This was a consistent pattern of His.
In Matthew 19 - the Pharisees ask a question about divorce - His answer: ‘Have you not read …’ - the Scripture gives the truth
In Mark 12 - a question on resurrection
Jesus’ response: ‘Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?’ [Mark 12:24]
When people ask where Sola Scriptura came from - it came from Jesus Himself - He clearly asserted the infallible - authoritative nature of the written Word of God.
It is somewhat of a smokescreen to point to verses that refer to oral tradition - when the canon had not yet been formed. Of course - there was spoken teaching - before it was written. That was the nature of the 1st century church.
The issue that bothered Luther and the Reformers so much was the exact same issue Jesus had with the Pharisees.
Traditions of the church had arisen over time and trumped the Word of God. Thus the church was in need of reform.
Luther wisely spoke: ‘I cannot put my trust in councils or popes because they err and often contradict one another. My conscience is captive to the Word of God - and it is neither right nor safe to go against conscience - so help me God.’
Consider God’s program - the apostle were the ones entrusted with passing along the faith and God bore witness to their spoken Word thru miracles. [Heb. 2:3,4; II Cor. 12:12]
What we see in that pattern is that God recognizes the huckster nature of man - anyone can claim to be the authoritative messenger from God - the question is - can they prove it?
Oftentimes - when God gave new revelation to man - He validated that word with miracles - or the fulfillment of what they spoke - such as with the prophets.
Moses, Elijah, the apostles - validated by God
If the Catholic church is and has been authorized to give new revelation to us - to literally speak for God - to tell us about Mary and her role - are there any authenticating signs we can look at to validate the church - so we know they are not hucksters. Jesus told us to look at the fruit. [I see a lot of immoral perversion among the priests]
Protestants are not immune from sexual sin - but the difference is we recognize that a man is disqualified and discredited by such sins - and is not to be considered a man of God.
Note also - the apostles never told us to believe ultimately because they were ‘the church’. They told us to believe because they saw it with their own eyes - witnessed the events - saw the risen Lord, etc. [Acts 2:32; I John 1:1-3; II Pet. 1:16]
God gave us many witnesses of the truth - 4 gospels - the letters of Paul.
The foundation of most cults - is the word of one man who can’t be checked out or verified by any outside source.
i.e. - ‘just take my word for it - and drink this Kool-aid by the way.’
The Catholic church merely takes that formula and applies it to its entire organization
It essentially says: ‘We have the truth and cannot be checked out by anyone.’
That’s a formula for disaster of the biggest kind
God does not operate that way
He validated Elijah with the miraculous fire offering when Israel had an authority question [I Kings 18:36]
He validated Moses on numerous occasions - [Ex. 14:31 - Numbers 12 is really interesting]
He validated the apostles - Heb. 2:3,4
He gave us numerous witnesses to the truth of the resurrection
He calls us to faith - but not to blind irrationalism
The early church devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and so should we [Acts 2:42]
I personally find that within the Catholic system - there is a serious effort made to undermine the teachings of the apostles and contradict them - and to cause people to rest their faith not in the Word of God but in the Word of man - not in Christ but in a church
I personally am not interested in a faith that contradicts the apostles - they were God’s chosen messengers. I have no reason to believe the Catholic church is God’s vehicle for communicating truth today. I do have God’s Word however and rest upon it.
I hope this doesn’t sound harsh - I have no quarrel with catholics - only Catholicism.
Keep thinking - keep seeking the truth. I appreciate your thoughts.
92. Brian
June 23, 2006
11:56 AM
Carrie,
I admit, I challenged you personally a little about Sola Scriptura, that may have gone beyond the bounds of where I prefer to keep the conversation. You are right that my mind is pretty made up, as is yours. I don’t think either of us trying to convert the other is helpful (because I believe we both already have become Christian by grace and seek to persevere in our walk with Jesus Christ). I would hope these conversations would lead to more mutual understanding. It’s not my job to convert any of you to Catholicism, I’d just like for the readers here to begin to see that there are Scriptural reasons for what Catholics believe and that we are not a tool of the devil or antichrist. I truly consider all Christians my brothers and sisters in Christ, even though some would not consider me as such.
In many ways I feel like a child of divorced parents. I see the value and strengths of the Protestant faith and I see different strengths in the Catholic faith. Catholics need so much of what Protestants have and understand, and Protestants would also benefit from the Catholic faith and understanding. Who prayed for unity before he died? Who seeks to divide and conquer?
I sometimes referred to Mary as Mary, other times I’ll use BVM. I didn’t think Protestants objected to that name, since it helps distinguish her from Mary Magdelane, Mary the wife of Clopas, and other Marys in the NT. Maybe I should just say the Virgin Mary, although the angel Gabriel did prophesy that all generations will call her blessed.
My answer to your question about how could oral tradition keep from being perverted over 2000 yrs is the same answer that you’d give to someone about how could what Jesus taught be kept perfectly infallible over the next 4 or 6 decades as the NT was being written:
“25”All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14: 25 – 26)”
If the Holy Spirit could do it for a few decades, why couldn’t H.S. do it for 2000 yrs?
And consider that here Jesus says the H.S. will TEACH and remind, not just remind.
Also, “remind you of EVERYTHING I have said to you.” But the last line of the Gospel of John says that not everything Jesus did was possible to be written down. So, since Scripture does not contain all that Jesus said and did in 3 yrs of ministry, yet Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit will remind the church of EVERYTHING, then there is room for something beyond Scripture.
And I back it up with 1Tim3:15, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.
93. Vynette
June 23, 2006
6:24 PM
Brian,
I neglected to answer your question: “…do you have any group that you get together with for worship or prayer or accountability?”
To answer fully, I must provide you with a little background.
Thomas Michael Wixted was a Queensland farmer born into the Roman Catholic faith. Around the age of 40 (1929), he began to question the doctrines of his religion. He expressed his concerns about their veracity to several persons, including the then Catholic Archbishop of Brisbane, Sir James Duhig.
Shortly after, he was committed to a mental institution and declared legally dead, as was the system at that time. He was institutionalized for more than twenty years - an experience from which he was nesp;” />
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Patrick (Ted) Wixted was 2 years old. When Ted grew to manhood, he took up the cudgel, so to speak, and began writing material questioning Catholic doctrine.
He wrote ‘The Race is Run’ in 1952 and followed this up by numerous pamphlets on religious and then political issues. In his professional capacity as the history curator of the Queensland Museum, Ted also wrote extensively on pioneer aviation.
Ted was my mentor from 1971 until his death in 2001. After his death, I began seeking ways to keep the essence of his teachings alive and wrote ‘Every Best Gift’. Recently, I hit upon the idea of creating a weblog to reproduce the essential ideas of ‘The Race is Run’ and his numerous pamphlets, albeit paraphrased and modernized.
I, and a small group of people (T.M.Wixted & Co.) are committed to a battle which may be termed ‘truth v lies’. As this battle is not confined to religion, neither are our activities.
Sincerely
Vynette
94. Dallas Pymm
June 23, 2006
6:52 PM
Vynette. That is a very pretty name by the way.
Your comment, number 87, leads me to believe you believe all of what scripture says. If this is not true, let me know. If it is true, I am interested in how you deny some of the doctrines of the Christian faith which are clearly from the Bible. Let’s stick to what you have said here.
“Doctrines such as the Trinity, Virgin Birth, and the various ‘divinity’ teachings, impose a barrier between Jesus of Nazareth and the rest of humanity;”
You have not given any Biblical bases to deny any of these, and did not give a real clear example of what you meant by ‘divinity’ teachings.
95. Vynette
June 23, 2006
8:38 PM
Dallas, Thank you.
“Your comment, number 87, leads me to believe you believe all of what scripture says. If this is not true, let me know. If it is true, I am interested in how you deny some of the doctrines of the Christian faith which are clearly from the Bible.”
My conviction is this:
that Jesus of Nazareth exemplified and enacted the values and principles required of creatures by their Creator;
that he was ‘anointed’ with plenipotentiary powers to speak and act in the name of God;
and that because he affirmed “scripture cannot be broken”, the Word of God is expressed in the Old Testament as well as the New.
With regard to your question about ‘divinity’ teachings, my contention is that a fundamental misunderstanding of the appellations ‘god’ and ‘Son of God’, when used in reference to Jesus of Nazareth, have given rise to the entire doctrinal apparatus of the Christian churches.
My ‘credo’ might be summed up in these fundamental teachings about Jesus of Nazareth by the the apostles:
That he was ‘anointed’ by God with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10 37:38);
That he was the ‘son’ of God by human parentage (John 1:34, 45, 49) though not the son of Joseph as commonly supposed at the time (Matt. 1:25);
That he was a ‘god’ in the sense in which he used it himself, that is, a man “unto whom the word of God came.” (John 10:34).On his reasoning, Moses and the prophets were also ‘gods’;
That he was the ‘only-begotten’ of God because he was the only-resurrected, not because he was born to a virgin.
And, Dallas, my conviction for the future:
Because Almighty God has appointed a day “… in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31).
Sincerely
Vynette
96. Brian
June 24, 2006
12:57 AM
Jerry,
The thing is, the more I studied the fruit of the teachings of the Church, the more I saw she could be trusted. It’s not a matter of drinking the kool-aid.
I’m not defending man-made traditions. I’m defending the oral tradition of what Jesus taught the apostles that wasn’t recorded in Scripture.
You’re right about Jesus condemning religious leaders who were off base. I believe Jesus would have done the same in Luther’s time with elements within the RCC that needed rebuking and He’d do the same today with Catholic leaders that are off base.
You mentioned the Word of God trumping the word of man. Absolutely, no doubt. I agree.
Where does it say in the Bible that now that the NT is complete, there is no more need for oral tradition?
Conscience: The Catechism concurs with you and Luther:
“A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.” CCC 1790
Mirarcles: There are plenty of Catholic miracles. Usually dismissed as from the devil or something by those who don’t want to allow for the possibility of such miracles being God’s stamp of approval.
I’m not into blind irrationalism either. But every time I’ve put the Catholic claims to the test, highly skeptical that I was, I was surprised to find them true. Surprised to find fruit on that tree. I’m reminded of what C.S. Lewis said about Christianity, and feel it applies equally to Catholicism. “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult, and left untried.”
You said Catholicism, but I’ve heard it said (and I said it myself as a Protestant) “I have no problem with Catholics, but with the Catholic Church”. The problem with that is, the Catholic Church is made up of Catholics. If you see something good in Catholics, isn’t that in itself one of the fruits of the Catholic Church? We’ve got our wheat and our tares, just like the Protestant world.
I should probably drop it now, or I risk being even more repetitive and verbose than I have already been. I just couldn’t sit back and take the kool-aid blind irrationalism comments lying down. :-)
Peace and the blessing of God to you today.
97. Brian
June 24, 2006
1:16 AM
I didn’t want to leave unsaid…
The RCC had its problems in Luther’s time and definitely needed reform. Have you ever read the 95 Theses of Luther? I’m no theologian and I read those 95 when I was still pretty new in understanding the Catholic faith as an adult, but by my cursory reading, about 90 of the things Luther had a problem with are not a problem today in the RCC. So he was right, it did need reform. Too bad the sinfulness of humans, Catholics, Luther himself, and even politicians and rulers at the time didn’t allow him to remain within the RCC to reform it.
The RCC has its problems today. The pruning Jesus speaks of is needed not just for individuals, but also churches.
There are many ways the Protestants put Catholics to shame in living as Christ taught. Many of the strongest most faithful Christians I know are Protestant. I have no doubt I’ll see them in heaven. God works powerfully in Protestant churches.
98. Jerry Morningstar
June 24, 2006
8:51 AM
Hi Brian - thanks for replying. I have had some of these discussions before. I don’t believe all Catholics are going to hell nor do i believe all protestants are going to heaven. [Praise God I’m not responsible to make that call anyway!] But when i look at where God puts the emphasis - I find the truth much more embraced in churches that stand with Sola Scriptura. If church doctrine is ever in need of correction - the infallibility of the pope comes into question.
I would like to count you as a brother in Christ. Do you look alone to the cross of Jesus Christ for your salvation? Do you believe that nothing you do can ever earn your salvation - but that God in His great mercy must count you righteous in the great substitutionary exchange that took place on Calvary? That true saving faith in the crucified and risen Lord will inevitably produce the fruit of good works and dedication to the Lord?
In my experience - there is room for a lot of disagreement and even confusion within Christendom. But - these issues are the essentials without which I believe there can be salvation. It is not found in Mary [Acts 4:12] - ‘There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.’ Our faith must be in Christ alone and in His work alone. ‘For i do not nullify the cross of Christ - if righteousness comes thru the law then Christ died needlessly.’ Let’s not nullify the cross - let’s exalt it together. We do that by letting it stand alone. God’s wonderful grace be with you. Thanks for hanging with me this long!
99. Carrie
June 24, 2006
9:07 PM
Hi Brian,
I just had to make a quick comment about your last comment. You say that many of the problems with the RCC that Luther addressed in his Theses are no longer a problem today. That the church during Luther’s time was in need of reform.
So that means that the “tradition” up until that time had been perverted in some way. And those traditions are back on track today?
So as I said previously, I don’t understand how you can base your faith on a religion that is based partially on tradition since tradition is subjective to error as proven by the issues at the time of Luther which you yourself admit were legitimate issues and are “fixed” today.
And if the church was already off-track at the time of Luther, how can you be sure it is back on track today? Wasn’t the tradition lost once the church went off-track? What historical source do you go back to?
100. Carrie
June 24, 2006
10:56 PM
Carrie,
You make a very good point. I can see how that would seem problematic. The abuses I’m thinking of, the selling of indulgences, etc., however widespread, were never part of official Church doctrine. The practice, in this case, was one of those man-made traditions that deserve to be condemned.
I know … I know… from the outside it would just look like anything bad I define as bad man-made tradition, and anything good like consensus on the Trinity, the dual nature of Christ, the canon, etc., I label as true God-given tradition.
I can’t give you a great answer on that one right now. It takes a history lesson on indulgences, what they actually are, etc. I read up on it once but am fuzzy on it tonight. It also takes a longer study on what is Sacred Tradition and what is just a practice or “t”radition.
An example discussed at length above is priestly celibacy. While I still defend that choice and think it’s the right choice for today in the Latin church, it is not something known by Sacred Tradition. I think it’s the right choice, but I don’t think it’s an infallible choice on the part of the Church. They could be wrong on that one.
So there are bad things AND good things the RCC does that do not originate from S.Tradition.
Also - I should say, after I posted above, I went back and looked at Luther’s 95 Theses. I regretted having named 90 that have changed. It had been way to long since I read the 95. Many of them aren’t necessarily points of disagreement Luther had with the RCC, but rather just points he was making in order to start the discussion. So some of them were never something that needed to be changed to begin with. An absurd example I’ll make up is “the sky is blue”. Luther was stating a fact, that would be 1 thesis. Sorry for speaking out of turn there.
101. Brian
June 24, 2006
10:57 PM
Oops, I meant to address Carrie, but accidentally put her name in the author box. Sorry about that, Carrie.
Brian