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Monday November 6, 2006

The Scandal

By now you have heard of the scandal involving Ted Haggard. Reaction to the news has ranged from sympathy to disgust, from support to condemnation. The media has dedicated a lot of attention to this story, though they seem to be writing about it as just another news story rather than something that is somehow bigger or more significant than any other story. Watchbloggers are out in force, like homeschool moms at a book sale, swarming and trampling. To this point I have refrained from mentioning the issue for reasons related primarily to my own lack of sanctification. But I feel now that I can speak out with some legitimacy.

Until this week I knew very little about Ted Haggard. I had heard his name a few times and even received a book of his from a publisher not too long ago (though I chose not to read it). Here in Canada we receive little news coverage of evangelical churches and leaders and I’m quite sure that, until this week, his name has never been mentioned in the Canadian media. Even now, the main pages of Canadian news sites have no mention of the story. And yet I realize that he is obviously an important individual who founded what has become a huge and important church and led an organization representing millions of Americans. Of greatest consequence, Haggard is a brother in Christ.

Like many of you, when I first heard the news of this scandal I wanted to know more. I wanted to know details and to have the whole story of his immorality printed before me. I wanted the lurid and gossipy details. Some sick and depraved part of me wanted to know it all, no doubt so I could compare myself to him and account myself somehow superior to him. Thankfully, this was but my first instinct and was obviously the desires of the “old man,” the part of me that delights in all that is evil and contrary to God. God was good to show me that I should not long after such things.

What I felt next was little better. I felt pity. This was not true sympathy, but pity that Haggard could be such a sinner; such a depraved individual. I felt sorry for a guy who could desire something so base, so sinful. Who would want to use meth? Who could feel that type of homosexual desire? I don’t understand such urges! I felt comfortable in my moral superiority and in my greater sanctification. I felt proud that I was not one of those guys whose life was such a far cry from his profession of faith.

And then I watched the video of Haggard being interviewed in front of his home. I’d encourage you to watch the video too, focusing on Haggard, watching his eyes, watching his face. You can find the link here. Remember as you watch that this is not a film and he is not an actor. This is a real man with a real life, a real soul, and real emotions. And now watch it again, but this time watch his wife, sitting immediately beside him. And not only that, but consider that sitting behind him are three of his children. The children sit silently while the reporter asks dad if he has done meth and if he has ever had sex with a man.

And then realize that, as we explored earlier this week in a discussion about total depravity, there is really no difference between you and Haggard or between myself and Haggard. We are all totally depraved with our sin extending to every aspect of our being. There but for the grace of God go I. There but for the grace of God go you. While I would not expect a reporter to approach me if I were to fall into similar sin, I can only imagine the pain of having to sit in front of my children, my wife, and answer questions about whether or not I have had sex with a man or admitting that I purchased illegal drugs. It’s horrible. It’s terrifying. That could be my wife, wondering how I could do this to her, wondering if she can ever trust me again, wondering if she can ever love me again. Those could be my kids, hearing the lurid details of dad’s depravity. Those could be my kids, trying bravely not to cry as they walk into school on Monday morning, knowing that everyone knows, knowing that life will never be the same.

I went from wanting to know details, to feeling pity to feeling terror to pleading with God to continue to extend His grace to me that I would not fall. Jonathan Edwards, in his most famous sermon, spoke about God’s sovereignty and how, at any given moment, it is only the sovereign grace of God that keeps Him from ending a person’s life. Marsden writes, “The subject of the sermon is that at this very moment God is holding sinners in his hands, delaying the awful destruction that their rebellion deserves.” Edwards said, “You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his price: and yet ‘tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment: ‘tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night…but that God’s hand has held you up: there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell. Oh sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in.” What is true of eternity, is equally true of the temporal. Just as nothing but God’s hand keeps both Christian and non-Christian from death at any given moment, the same hand is all that restrains any of us from falling into sin as dreadful as Haggard’s, or sin that is far worse.

Paul’s exhortation of 1 Corinthians 10:12 has been much on my mind this weekend. “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.” Oh, that God would keep me from relying more on my effort and less on His grace. I pray and beg and plead that His grace would continue to extended to me that I would take heed, that I would continue to fill my heart with His Words of life.

There are some who are seeking to make this issue into something almost prophetic, as if it is indicative of the state of evangelicalism. “The Reformed Gadfly,” whose post was endorsed by Slice of Laodicea writes, “I’m sick and tired of being associated with a ‘Christianity’ that does not seem to care one whit about holiness or obedience to God’s Word. Let me say this as perfectly clear as I can: I believe that ‘Christianity’ in America is nearly totally apostate. Why? We have abandoned the vision of the Holiness and Fear of God. We’ve built a false god that will cater to our flesh and meet our ‘felt needs’. Our real need? Repentance. But we don’t want to go there. We live in Laodicea. No apologies. Cut and dried. Stuff like this can only happen because contemporary Christianity is rotten to the core.”

No, no, no! Stuff like this happens because we are rotten to the core! Stuff like this happens because I am rotten to the core. Oh, that we would all take heed! How can we be sick and tired of being associated with other sinners? I am the greatest sinner I know and can only delight to be in the presence of other sinners, others with whom I can share God’s grace and from whom I can learn more about God’s grace. The Christian I am most sick and tired of being associated with me, for my sin is before me always! Every day I have to peer into my dark heart and beg God for forgiveness. Every day I see again how my heart is dark and black and awful and filled with emnity towards God. Every day I see in my heart that I am no different than Ted Haggard. But for the grace of God I would do so much more and so much worse. Take heed. I sit here and weep for Haggard and his family and his church, but selfishly, I weep even more for myself, knowing that I, too, could be in such a situation. What is in Haggard is in me. What is in me is in you. But for the grace of God…

Despite all the darkness and the grief, this situation gives me some hope and some cause to rejoice. New Life Church seems to have handled this situation very well. I know nothing of the church beyond what has appeared in the news and what Phillip Ryken wrote of it at the Reformation21 blog. “I visited New Life Church when it was in its popular ascendancy about a decade ago. The strongest impression I had on that particular Sunday was a palpable absence of the gospel — lots of feel-good worship and moralistic exhortation to lead a good life, but little in the way of a biblical message of repentance for sin and grace in Christ. Yet this is the only gospel that can save any of us who are guilty of scandalous sins.” They have certainly moved quickly and decisively in this situation, examining the evidence and taking swift action in removing Haggard from his position of authority. This seems like the right thing to do based on their conclusion that “Our investigation and Pastor Haggard’s public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct.” This was good to see and bodes well for the church. I hope this situation strengthens the church, causing its members to look long and hard at their own lives.

But there is more reason to hope. Bill Kinnon pointed out to me the subject of Haggard’s sermon just one week ago. Haggard preached “from 1 Samuel 16 on God’s preparation for the removal of one King, Saul, with his replacement, David. An interesting passage to cover in a church where the leadership model more closely resembled Kings and Chronicles, than that of New Testament leadership. The preacher was speaking about the forthcoming US midterm elections. Talking about how God removes some leaders and replaces them with others. One might see the preaching as prophetic for the events in the last week.” Mere seconds into the sermon, Haggard prayed that lies and deception would be exposed. “Father, we pray that lies would be exposed. We pray that deception would be exposed.” I can but hope that Haggard’s prayer was sincere and that God took him at his word, answering his prayer. I can only hope that Haggard realizes this and turns to God in full repentance.

And I can only hope that, when you and I ask God to answer our prayers and to save us from our sin, to unmask the sin that haunts us, that He will be so swift to answer. I sometimes hesitate to ask God that he will deal with the sin in my life in whatever way He deems necessary to get me to actually change my ways. And yet, in my best moments, I ask Him to do anything necessary, no matter how difficult, no matter how humiliating, to draw me closer to Him and to mold me ever more into His image. If I’ve been intimidated before, I will be even more so now. And yet I see that He can and will answer.

If we look to Ted Haggard as a representative of all that is wrong in Evangelicalism, I think we miss the most important lesson. The lesson we need to learn is that we are every bit as sinful and fallible and willful and depraved as Haggard; perhaps more so. It is only the grace of God that, like a spider being held over the flame by a nearly-invisible web, prevents me from giving in to all the sin that is in me and being dragged down by it. Oh, that He would continue to extend this grace! And oh, that I would take heed lest I, too, fall, for what is in Haggard is in me.

Comments (148) »


1. Donnell Duncan
November 6, 2006
11:01 AM

Ok Tim, this comment is directly for you. Wow! I woke up this morning and considered writing about this topic but God gave me something else. After reading your message, I know why. God bless you brother and you have earned your place at the top of the God Blogosphere!


2. Alex
November 6, 2006
11:05 AM

Stuff like this happens because I am rotten to the core.

Thank you.


3. WES
November 6, 2006
11:15 AM

Your comment on this situation reminds me of Sufjan Stevens song about John Wayne Gacy.

And in my best behavior
I am really just like him
Look beneath the floorboards
For the secrets I have hid


4. Dluxe
November 6, 2006
11:18 AM

Wow… thanks, Tim.

The lesson we need to learn is that we are every bit as sinful and fallible and willful and depraved as Haggard; perhaps more so.

Indeed…

In church yesterday, someone stated that the Gospel might be harmed by the Ted Haggards of the world. If we are preaching a “Try Harder! Moral Perfection!” gospel, I suppose that’s true.

Of course, that isn’t really much of a gospel at all. Praise God that His grace is greater than our sin, and that His Spirit is working to conform us to Christ.


5. Kyle
November 6, 2006
11:29 AM

Tim,

Thank you for this wonderful post. Ever since I first learned of the then very unclear scandal of Ted Haggard last Thursday, I have been simply heartsick, and nearly obsessed with this story. I ache for Haggard, knowing full well the lure of sin and darkness in my own heart, and pleading with God for grace to keep me from following sin’s enticement to a similar place. I ache for Haggard’s family, terrified for what his wife and children will face in the coming days, months, and years. I tremble for the bride of Christ, and agonize over the laughably imperfect reflection of the Savior we offer the world.

But I had not come across a blog or article who seemed to share the same compassion. Most of what I have read has been very harsh and condemnatory, railing Haggard as a phony and a fraud - until just now. I believe the heart of our Lord is evident in your words, Tim.

Thank you. And may God’s grace preserve us all, and sustain the Haggard family in these unimaginably difficult days.

Kyle


6. lisa4given
November 6, 2006
11:45 AM

And who and what are ministers themselves? Frail men, fallible, sinning men, exposed to every snare, to temptation in every form; and, from the very post of observation they occupy, they are an easier target for the fiery darts of the foe. They are not trite victims the great Adversary is seeking, when he would wound and cripple Christ’s ministers. One such victim is worth more to the kingdom of darkness than a number of common men; and for this very reason their temptations are probably more subtle and severe than those encountered by ordinary Christians. If this subtle Deceiver fails to destroy them, he cunningly aims at neutralizing their influence by quenching the fervor of their piety, lulling them into negligence, and doing all in his power to render their work burdensome. How perilous is the condition of that minister then, whose heart is not encouraged, whose hands are not strengthened, and who is not upheld by the prayers of his people! It is not in his own closet and on his own knees alone, that he finds security and comfort, and ennobling, humbling, and purifying thoughts and joys; but it is when they also seek them in his behalf, that he becomes a better and happier man, and a more useful minister of the everlasting Gospel! —Gardiner Spring

What should we do about all of this? PRAY FOR OUR PASTORS!!!


7. Dan Phillips
November 6, 2006
11:53 AM

Yes/but

This particularly resonates with me: The Christian I am most sick and tired of being associated with me

Indeed. I’ve come to feel intensely that the one thing about the world that I’ll miss the least, in the presence of God, is ME, as I am now.

Having said that, is it possible to go too much in the there-but-for-the-grace-of-God direction? Does rotten theology not have rotten consequences? I would disagree.


8. Michael
November 6, 2006
11:54 AM

…um, tears are the first reaction to your post. Not for Mr. Haggard, but for me. I can search a dark heart as well my brother. I’m sickened as your are, and over joyed at the reality that my destiny (and Haggards) depends on the Holiness of another! Praise God! Thank you for sharing your heart today. And praise God for this line in your post, “that I would continue to fill my heart with His Words of life”. Oh that news like this would only drive us all harder into the word.


9. Joshua
November 6, 2006
12:00 PM

This guy was the one evangelical that Barbara Walters interviewed for the CTV presentation on Heaven that was on early in the year.


10. John Samson
November 6, 2006
12:00 PM

Tim,

This article is simply outstanding! I pray that it will be widely read and applied, especially in my own heart and life.


11. DLE
November 6, 2006
12:08 PM

Tim,

One of your better posts, for sure. I agree with everything you wrote.

I fear for the people who take a “Laodicea” position on this, setting themselves apart. It’s that kind of kingmaker mentality that creates the very problem those folks complain against. There’s no humility in saying, “We would never do something like that!”

While it may be true that you or I might be relatively immune to one kind of temptation, another might be waiting to take us down. Sure, drug abuse and perverted sexuality are great for the headlines, but the Lord hates pride more than anything else, and some of us Christians are towing along a barge full of it.

I blogged about the Haggard issue, tying it into the series I just completed on community. Many of the sin issues we see in the lives of Christian leaders reach epic proportions because the Body of Christ is not practicing true community. Real community recognizes that pastors are no different from the rest of the people within the local church community. They are fellow brothers and subject to the same temptations we are. But while we may allow ourselves the grace of confession to others in the community, we don’t allow pastors the same grace. Pastors know that in most cases, even confessing the slightest sin will get them removed from their role as pastor. I fear that’s a double standard: we hold pastors to too stringent a standard. They feel the need to cover up any and all things in order to preserve their jobs. I’ve known pastors blackballed from a denomination for sinning in ways that the ordinary guy in the pew does without even thinking. That kind of bombastic knee-jerk reaction perpetuates the problem.

A real community would allow pastors to confess those sins without fear of life-destroying consequences. Yes, all sin has consequences, but if we don’t give the grace to nip “small” things in the bud before they blossom into monstrosities, then we’re only setting the pastorate up for major falls.

Almost every pastoral fall begins because the pastor knows that people will overreact. Our congregations treat him as a person apart and not one of us, so why should he think any different? This problem lies at the core of almost every noted pastoral failure of the last century.

We must allow our pastors to be human. We must include them in our community and bear their burdens just like we would each others’. We must not be surprised our pastors sin. We must extend them the same grace we are willing to extend to our “ordinary” brothers and sisters. Only then will we stop the relentless pastoral tragedies that can afflict your church or mine.


12. Bobs
November 6, 2006
12:26 PM

Tim, With all due respect, I think you’ve missed an important point. You call Mr. Haggard “a brother in CHRIST”. From my reading of 1John, I have serious doubts that he is a brother. I believe our prayer for him should be for God to save him. In Grace alone! Bob


13. Wes Bredenhof
November 6, 2006
12:27 PM

Thanks, Tim. I think this is the most sensible blog post I’ve read on the matter.


14. Jeremy
November 6, 2006
12:27 PM

Tim,

I appreciate this post and am thankful for such a response. I think we can all agree with it. This is a sharp reminder that we are no different than the “worst” sinner.

I do have one problem with it though. This is not our usual response to unbelievers. We are quick to demonstrate mercy and grace towards others, as long as they are believers. Unbelievers, however, are another story. Let’s crucify them for even the slightest infraction (I can’t help but to be reminded of Bill Clinton’s similar situation). This backwards response seem completely contrary to the regular pattern of Scripture (1Cor. 5:9-13).

Peace,

Jeremy


15. diane
November 6, 2006
12:31 PM

Thank you Tim! You hit the nail on the head. This post is worth passing on to everyone I know and worth saving to read again and again and again.

from the chief of sinners,
diane


16. Peter Smythe
November 6, 2006
12:44 PM

Tim, I agree with your empathy, but not with your doctrine. Ted Haggard, as a born-again Christian, does not possess an evil heart nor is he a sinner. As a born-again believer, however, he must deal with what the Word calls death-doomed flesh. Paul speaks of keeping his body under with its lusts and appetites. The Word also demonstates to us that unclean (evil) spirits work to influence believers to their destruction. Nothing in the Word says or even implies that they have discontinued this work.


17. deborah
November 6, 2006
12:46 PM

Bobs,
Having just finished re-reading 1 John, after reading your comment, what specifically do you have in mind when you doubt if Haggard is a brother? Is it that he sinned or the type of sin or is it something else?


18. joythruChrist
November 6, 2006
12:48 PM

Tim, thanks. >>tears


19. billmelone
November 6, 2006
12:51 PM

Awesome post. Its great to see how you thought through this and examined your heart. There is nothing between us and hell but air. Good theology doesn’t keep me up. Good theology recognizes that God keeps me up, my brain is subject to God. And I do believe that Haggard is a brother in Christ, he’s already displaying repentance.
Thanks again tim!


20. Bob Hayton
November 6, 2006
12:52 PM

Thank God for this post. Truly, it is an answer to prayer. I have prayed that Christ would be exalted even through the blatant ugliness of this whole affair, and I am sure others have as well.

I would like to just add one further level of thought. Yes, Ted is a sinner. Yes, we are too. And oh, we should let it sink in just how horrible we all really are. And yes, too, despite the assurances to the contrary by postmodern and liberal theologians, God’s wrath is suspended over us, and naught but grace stays His Holy Hand. And we are thus beckoned forcefully to thank God unceasingly for that grace.

But let us not forget Christ as the Reason for that grace. Let us be sure to lift Him up. And let us be sure to trumpet the Gospel as the unmistakably jaw-dropping truth that it is. That because of God giving up His only Son Jesus—the most Worthy and Holy Individual there is—He thereby offers to us—the most wicked and despicable, undeserving creatures there are—infinite and priceless grace. He places all of Ted’s black sins, and all the as yet unseen or unappreciated black sins of my own heart, and yours, on His Spotless Son—the Lamb of God—and then provides for people like Ted and you and me infinite Righteousness and Holiness. So that He not only restores us, even as Ted’s wife has been willing to restore her guilty husband, but that He raises us up to an unspeakable level of honor. We become joint heirs with Christ! By means of Jesus’ very blood, we inherit all of Jesus’ wealth!

Let us be shocked anew at the wonder of such an incredible message. Let us be amazed at the wonder of grace, as measured not only by the depths of our own sin but by the heights of the Glory of that Perfect Lamb Who was sacrificed on our behalf!

Worthy, Worthy is the Lamb! Glory be to our Great God and Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ!


21. Tim Challies
November 6, 2006
12:52 PM

Bobs - See this article regarding “the ultimate human judgment.”

Dan Phillips wrote: “Having said that, is it possible to go too much in the there-but-for-the-grace-of-God direction? Does rotten theology not have rotten consequences? I would disagree.”

I thought immediately of Luke 13:4: “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?” It is entirely possible that rotten theology has rotten consequences but I don’t know that we can state that this situation is the consequence of that kind of sin.

“Ted Haggard, as a born-again Christian, does not possess an evil heart nor is he a sinner.”

Oh boy.


22. mccarnan no. 3
November 6, 2006
12:54 PM

thanks, tim. it’s refreshing to read someone edifyingly, tactfully, truthfully, and ‘Christlike-ly’ approaching a scandal. keep this up. ‘things like this happen because we/i am rotten to the core.’ amen. amen!


23. Jabbok
November 6, 2006
12:54 PM

I’ve heard the name “Haggard” but I wasn’t familiar with him or his ministry. Neither had I heard anything regarding this scandal until I read your article this morning.
Your sentiments expressed what I love most about the reformed men of old. They were mindful of their own corrupt nature and often prayed, “Lord, deliver me from myself.”
I believe what you’ve expressed is the attitude and way of thinking that we as individual Christians should possess. I think the role of this man’s church is a little different. It falls on them to bind or to loosen. As individuals they should be reminded of the things you have written but as a church their task is different. It falls on them to discipline and to seek to restore to fellowship. However, if the accusations are true I personally don’t believe he can return to ministry.

Our Sunday School class, two weeks ago, was in Genesis 20 where Abimalech took Sarah, Abraham’s wife, and God said to him, “I kept you from sinning against me.” God does indeed hold us in His hand.


24. Jason
November 6, 2006
1:03 PM

Tim,

Thanks for expressing so well what I have been feeling and thinking about this situation. You stated it so much more clearly than I could have.

Jason


25. Jerry M
November 6, 2006
1:04 PM

I have no desire to jump on Haggard for sinning, etc. The problem I have is with the utter disconnect he must have functioned under to preach that Jesus saves and delivers while he was living this kind of lifestyle. He knew the Bible well enough to know that he had disqualified himself from ministry long ago - and yet chose to stay until God exposed his sin.

I pray that God would put a hedge about our evangelical leaders and keep them from darkening the light that our world so desperately needs to see and hear from the church.


26. Jonah
November 6, 2006
1:09 PM

Tim your thoughts come at a crucial time. As I write I’m resisting the overwhelming temptation to respond to Peter Smythe’s comment, cuz’ it’s like chewing tin foil.

I don’t like Haggard’s doctrine any more than I like most charismatic perspective. But I’m reminded of Luke 18:10 and following. Over at Fide-O it even turned into a rather heated and superfluous debate of Arminianism vs. Calvinism. I couldn’t believe it. Is that what we’re talking about? Certainly not. If nothing else, this sad escapade is to serve as a burning landmark of our own inability to serve God. It is only by his grace that we are called the Sons of God.

Thank you for your tempered and timely article.

-Jonah


27. Tyler
November 6, 2006
1:13 PM

Incredible article! Were it not for grace, where would we all be but wallowing in a mire of self-deception and sin!


28. Wyeth Duncan
November 6, 2006
1:15 PM

The only thing I can say in response to your post is “Amen”. I’m glad you waited some days before writing. It was a blessing to read what you had to say.

I would also add, I agree with DLE when he writes that pastors “are fellow brothers and subject to the same temptations we are. But while we may allow ourselves the grace of confession to others in the community, we don’t allow pastors the same grace. Pastors know that in most cases, even confessing the slightest sin will get them removed from their role as pastor.”

That’s true. Too many of us are too quick to condemn without ever considering that the only thing that keeps us from falling head-long into the sins we condemn in others is God’s grace.

Thank you for your post.

Wyeth Duncan


29. Jay
November 6, 2006
1:24 PM

Thanks for your transparency Tim. That’s the best assesment I’ve read or heard on all of this. I really appreciate what you do.


30. Brian T. at voiceofthesheep
November 6, 2006
1:24 PM

Tim,
Interesting post. I have commented on this whole thing from a little different perspective. Not one that poors more condemnation upon the man or sets me apart from Haggard, necessarily, but from a perspective that asks questions such as:

1. How long would this have continued to go on if someone other than Haggard hadn’t revealed it?
2. Where was/is the accountability that could have helped to prevent this kind of ongoing, blatant sin?
3. How many other churches right now have little to no accountability or checks and balances for their leadership…and how many other leaders right now are hiding such egregious sin because they can…because no one is really calling them to account for their life and actions?
4. Does this incident reveal anything about the apparent apathy within the church toward holding one another accountable?

I agree that the Haggard’s church seems to have acted swiftly and appropriately…but unfortunately, AFTER the fact.

What needs to be done within the visible church to prevent these types of things BEFORE they ever begin?

Thanks.


31. Lin
November 6, 2006
1:26 PM

Jerry wrote: He knew the Bible well enough to know that he had disqualified himself from ministry long ago - and yet chose to stay until God exposed his sin. >>

This really is key to all of this and what really scares me. Yes, we are all sinners but not all of us are teachers or shepherds. And as James says, not all of us should be.

This came up while studying Hebrews 10:26-31 at Bible Study. A ministers wife (not senior minister) brought up that we should not judge him and that she willfully sins everyday as a gossip and has for years. There is a disconnect somewhere with sanctification if we are ‘willfully’ sinning when we have the knowledge of truth.

Lest anyone misunderstand, I am a horrible sinner. But are we teaching the full truth about sin? If someone loves me, they will point out my sin and rebuke me. With serious accountability as a pastor, he could not have gotten by with this for 3 years. We are creating celebrity preachers we dare not rebuke.

His church has handled this very well after the facts and I praise God for that. I cannot stand to think of his wife and children. It makes me sick for them.


32. Jon
November 6, 2006
1:30 PM

Amen


33. clyde
November 6, 2006
1:34 PM

i also thought much about that sufjan stevens song this morning.

look beneath the floorboards


34. Bobs
November 6, 2006
1:35 PM

Tim, Thanks for your referral to the earlier post. It was most helpful. My conviction in this present scandal is based on the continuing sin which the Apostle warns is evidence of unbelief. But I am appreciative of your caution. Im CHRIST alone. Bob


35. Marla
November 6, 2006
1:42 PM

Everything you say is true, Mr. Challies. And I agree wholeheartedly with your very biblical and truthful telling of what we ALL are like to the core. I spent 25 years as an unbeliever doing things and making decisions that were heinous and an offense to God. I can honestly say that almost every day I am aware and inexpressably thankful that God forgave me for all I did and pulled me out of the mire for no other reason than because of His Son.

However, (I’m sure you could sense this coming) isn’t anyone tired of the offense and reproach that is brought to the name of Christ when a prominent member of our Body falls? I just get a little angry when I hear of these kind of stories. I wonder, what kind of life was this person living that allowed entry of this kind of sin? Weren’t they accountable to someone? I can think of three stories recently (two in my state) where prominent people have had to step down from ministry. And I’m starting to get a little mad.

I wonder if part of the problem is that we really don’t believe the bible when it says “If you live according to the flesh YOU WILL DIE.” Do we somehow think those warnings don’t apply to our pristine Christian lives? I think we need some real hellfire and brimstone preachers in this country to stop the cream puff sermons on having a purpose driven life and start preaching that a Judgement is coming and it will START with the House of God. I think we should all have a healthy “fear” of offending the God who saved us. We should live accountable lives toward our brothers and sisters and do our best not to allow our wrong desires to give birth to sin. And we need to take seriously the dire warnings in scripture of living with sin. The children of Israel were saved out of bondage in Egypt, yet most of them did not inherit the promised land because of their disobedience and lack of faith. That should be an example to us.

Marla


36. Dr Mike
November 6, 2006
1:46 PM

I left the following comment at Jim Martin’s post earlier today; his post is a thoughtful and insightful one, much like yours.

___________

Haggard’s sin is a sad but all-too familiar story for those of us old enough to remember Bakker and Swaggart, or to have read Elmer Gantry.

[Jim] noted the importance of being “faithful in the ‘little things.’” In the language of sexual addictions, this is known as SUDs: Seemingly Unimportant Decisions. [Jim is] quite right: if sin were to present itself blatantly, most of us would reject it immediately; boil us like a frog, however, and we wind up immersed in hot water and realize it too late.

I do not doubt Haggard’s repentance but am concerned about whether or not he realizes the depth of the problem. In his statement (read to New Life Church; available as a .pdf file - his wife’s statement is also available) he spoke of his regret and remorse, but also (in what appears at first to be merely peculiar):

“I have an overwhelming, all-consuming sadness in my heart for the pain that you and I and my family have experienced over the past few days.”

“and I”? This is the leakage of a narcissistic personality, something quite often found to be foundational to addictions, including sexual ones. He says, too, that

“Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me.”

We all need to think through what we believe “recovery” from any addiction actually is. It is not merely the arrest of sinful behavior, as important as that is as a starting point; recovery is the transformation accomplished through the renewing of our mind and the development of Christ-like character in us. Addictions are symptomatic of deep characterologic flaws. They must be managed first but then treated deeply.

Sadly, Haggard also says,

“The public person I was wasn’t a lie; it was just incomplete.”

This should alert and frighten us. His life was, without question, a lie; the statement above is no less a lie. He was a consumate hypocrite and hypocrites are behavioral (rather than verbal) liars. That does not seem to have changed as of yet.

To his credit, he has repented as best he knows how. We need to pray for him, of course, but we also need to pray for our own pastors.

Driscoll’s comments on this matter have some merit regardless of what one might think of him. We need to listen to the message and ignore the messenger: Mark has some very good advice for any Christian, engaged in vocational ministry or not.


37. Liinda
November 6, 2006
1:46 PM

Haggard prayed that lies and deception would be exposed. “Father, we pray that lies would be exposed. We pray that deception would be exposed.” I can but hope that Haggard’s prayer was sincere and that God took him at his word, answering his prayer. I can only hope that Haggard realizes this and turns to God in full repentance.

Well said. I take heed. This is a wake up call to the ‘good’ folks. Might we ‘smite our breasts and pray, God have mercy on me, a sinner’. No room for self pride here. Thanks


38. Austin Storm
November 6, 2006
1:51 PM

Tim,

Thank you for this post.


39. Xavier Pickett of RBA
November 6, 2006
1:54 PM

…The irony is that with an intensely charged anti-homosexual atmosphere among the Christian and political right, no one condemns the homosexual behavior of Mike Jones. I do not say that to mean we ought to be gay bashing, but rather to expose the hypocrisy in this supposedly high moral ground on which conservative religious and political folks seem to stand on almost all the time. In other words, I have not heard one conservative say anything about Jones’ potentially dangerous homosexual lifestyle at least from a health perspective, let alone the ethical dimension since those are the normal conservative talking points on homosexual relationships. And the silence is just it! Because even the church has grossly failed to take advantage of this great gospel opportunity to speak boldly and lovingly to the homosexual community by coming along side of Jones who also may be hurt from this terrible situation. If I was a homosexual (and I am not) looking at how the church has largely neglected to love one of their major public figures who has been found to be participating in homosexual activities, why would I ever want to step foot inside a church or even talk to a Christian? But what would it mean for the broadly evangelical church that is known for its vastly anti-homosexual rhetoric to actually love the very same homosexual man who had an intimate relationship with their very own – the former president of National Evangelical Association? I don’t pretend to know all of what that would mean, but I’m sure national redemption couldn’t be too far behind. So until then, unfortunately, this incident not only speaks to Haggard’s scandal, but also to the evangelical church’s scandal. (For more, see - “Which Scandal: Haggard’s or The Evangelical Church’s?”)


40. Gordon Cloud
November 6, 2006
1:59 PM

This may just be the best post I have ever read.


41. Tom Stack
November 6, 2006
2:00 PM

Superb, Tim!

I’ve linked your grace-filled reflections on on my site here.

Tom
Doctrine Matters


42. Harry
November 6, 2006
2:05 PM

Tim, you went right to the point! It is sin; sin in you, in me, in everyone. The symptom of that sin is wide-spread sexual immorality within the Church. Haggard wasn’t the only pastor in Colorado Springs guilty of sexual immorality and exposed in our local newspaper last week, he was just the one with the bigger name. There are thousands more across the US and Canada, and there are 100s of 1000s of every day people with hidden sexual sin in their lives. It is time to apply Heb. 12:15, 16, “See to it … that no one is sexual immoral …” We have a responsibility for one another. We, the church, failed Ted Haggard, but we are all failing those around us.


43. Dan Phillips
November 6, 2006
2:14 PM

Tim, I think you misread me; sorry if I was unclear.

When I asked whether rotten theology has rotten consequences, I didn’t mean bad external situations, except those situations caused by the attitudes and behavior caused by the sin.

What I meant was that ideas have consequences, that the springs of life flow from the heart (Proverbs 4:23). To re-word my point, isn’t it to be expected that a rot in the theology will result in rot in the life? It really has no connection whatever with Luke 13. We aren’t talking about something bad that happened to a nice person. We’re talking about something bad that someone did. When we look at his theology, we have concerns. Is it really wrong to ask if there’s a connection?

We strive to understand the Word truly not only because we want to know God, know the truth, and know the truth about God — but because our lives flow from our convictions.

Hope I’ve rephrased myself sufficiently.


44. Peter Smythe
November 6, 2006
2:21 PM

Tim, regarding your comments to my statement, what of Romans 5:5 that says, “and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through [the] Holy Ghost which was given to us?” Or, Ephesians 3:17 that says, “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith?” Or, Galatians 4:6 that says, “And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father?” How are those verses meshed with your premise that a born-again Christian is still a sinner at heart?


45. john umland
November 6, 2006
2:27 PM

excellent post. the problem wasn’t ecclesiastical structures, or correct theology, or enough piety, the problem was sin and the solution is Jesus and he is the only solution to our clay feet and corrupt flesh and hearts in need of sanctification.
God is good
jpu


46. Pappadeas
November 6, 2006
2:32 PM

Perfect! Thank you Tim.


47. joey
November 6, 2006
2:46 PM

Dan Phillips said

“We’re talking about something bad that someone did. When we look at his theology, we have concerns. Is it really wrong to ask if there’s a connection?”

My thought would be that if there was no connection between our doctrine and our actions, doctrine wouldn’t mean very much, would it? On the other hand, sound doctrine doesn’t make one immune to heinous sin. David is the obvious one who comes to mind.


48. DLE
November 6, 2006
2:54 PM

With all due respect to John Umland (#45), ecclesiastical structures and the other things he mentions absolutely DO make a difference. They put structures and systems in place that magnify the likelihood of sin causing problems or else they diminish it.

Systems and structures that allow temptation to be magnified cause failure. Everyone reading this now knows of at least one story where a local pastor ran off with the church secretary. A male and female working closely in a spiritually-charged atmosphere breeds that sort of behavior. If the pastor’s assistant were another heterosexual male, then obviously that problem would be greatly diminished.

That’s just one of thousands of structures/systems that can be modified to reduce the likelihood of moral failure.

Yes, sin is the problem. But that doesn’t mean we don’t take practical steps to reduce our chances to fall prey to it.


49. Brian T. at voiceofthesheep
November 6, 2006
2:58 PM

“the problem was sin and the solution is Jesus”

Unfortunately, this is an oversimplification that doesn’t really address anything pertinent to any specific problem within the church, including Haggard. Yes, we know the root of the problem is sin. But, the root to every problem is sin, isn’t it?

I think the Haggard mess (and others) should be evaluated beyond saying that he was a sinner like you and me, and there but by the grace of God go I. We know that already, don’t we?. But does saying that solve anything?
am
Surely we can and should look at how the visible church is structured and holds its members accountable, for one thing. But I think there are probably many other areas that could and should be critiqued as well.

For one, the church has got no sense of what it means to be the church anymore. And I think we are going to have to get our hands a little more dirty than just saying ‘sin is the problem and Jesus is the answer, and thank God I have not fallen to the same degree of that Ted Haggard over there…’


50. jel
November 6, 2006
3:16 PM

this was a very heartfelt post, very moving
thank you!

God Blessing to you and your’s


51. John Ferguson
November 6, 2006
3:20 PM

Tim, thanks for the post. I’m reminded of theses words from Martin Luther during the fire of the Reformation:

“I am more afraid of my own heart than of the pope and all his cardinals.”


52. Peter Smythe
November 6, 2006
3:23 PM

With regard to Dan Phillips’s comments, Demas was called by Paul as a fellow servant in the work of the gospel. Later, he left Paul because he “loved the world.” Based upon Dan’s comments, Paul probably needed to rethink his theology. Or, another way of looking at it would be that Paul’s theology was not good enough for Demas.


53. thewitnessman
November 6, 2006
4:07 PM

well done for such a great article.

I see in your heart the same spirit that jesus had when he saw the Pharisees about to stone the woman to death. As you pointed out, we are all Ted Haggards in the end.

As brothers and sisters in Christ we must not just have the discernment of when to correct our brothers, but when to build them up too. Now that Ted has been humbled, we need to assist in building him into a better, stronger man than before. Good can still come of this.

But I have no doubt that we will, unfortunately, have some in the body of Christ that will take advantage of this. But it is at times like these that our hearts are tested. What really lies in the depths of our hearts; judgement or compassion?

Although what Ted did was morally unjustified, the reaction of others is equally so. To Jesus, lust was as bad as adultery. If we have lusted even once, then we are just as bad as Ted.

So, in the end, we are all in the same position here. Ted Haggard just has the courage to admit it.


54. ron
November 6, 2006
4:16 PM

Tim, I think what you wrote is a starting point before we press further into how should we look at this situations effects on the church as a whole. Yes, we need to understand and declare that each of us is capable of the worst sins. I am in my natural self no better than Ted Haggard or the worst sinner. Also, we have hope because our hope is in Christ. The victory is won. We can rejoice knowing that the elect will be redeemed.

That being said, Marla makes a point that seems to be very relevant. We should be grieving and praying for the Church at large first and foremost when things like this happen. Yes, we should pray for Mr. Haggard and his family, but too often it seems that is how Christians identify with facing a crisis like this. No, the fact is the Body has been damaged. Church leaders need to be encouraged to call all of us to grieve, and display public repentance that we continue to make idols out of people, and set ourselves up for these types of tragedy.

If you looked at Ted Haggard’s website before this all came out you would have seen a Ted Haggard glorifying website. Nothing like a Tim Challies website, which points its readers away from men, and towards our sovereign God. How is it that Christians who knew him stood by and allowed such an idol-like portrayal of him exist? Where is the discernment? Instead of people trying to defend, or explain the situation we need to start considering that first we should cover our mouths and cry out to God for ignoring the warnings.

Let’s pray and grieve for the whole church, and that God moves mightily to turn our hearts fully to him.


55. JoannainCa.
November 6, 2006
4:17 PM

Hey, I may push and shove but I DO NOT swarm and trample. :)


56. Blake Law
November 6, 2006
4:37 PM

At my best moments, I cry out for God to do anything necessary to get me to really repent of my sin and turn.

That spiders dangling metaphor is so powerful! It’s what I remember most from reading the sermon for the first time in 10th grade, and it seems like it’s what SO many people remember most about it since. What a powerful device the Lord has used to make things STICK to us


57. Lane Keister
November 6, 2006
4:41 PM

Thank you for this excellent article. My God continue to bless you in your ministry in the blogosphere. I am going to link to your blog.


58. billmelone
November 6, 2006
4:49 PM

Dan Phillips: I can see why you would see the Luke reference as not being quite what you meant, but the initial question you had for Tim was is it possible to go too much in the but-for-the-grace-of-God-I-go direction. I think that lacking theology does bring consequences, but we only have good theology/theopraxis because of the grace of God, and only to the extent that God gives it to us. Plus, the idea that we can go too far in the direction of the grace of God in anything has to be wrong.


59. Larry
November 6, 2006
4:53 PM

I don’t think this is an either/or proposition. We can both say ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ AND ‘this is symptomatic of serious problems with American evangelicalism’. Just as its not a stretch to say any of us could be taken captive by sin, it’s also not a stretch to say that only in a seriously disfunctional and flawed church (meaning nationally, not just his church only) could someone rise to such heights while simultaneously pursuing a path in direct oppostion to Christ.


60. Carly Staley
November 6, 2006
4:55 PM

What a time to ponder the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee. Thank you for reminding us of our own depravity, Tim.


61. Dan Phillips
November 6, 2006
5:12 PM

Peter — since my one point, made and reiterated and reillustrated, was that theology is related to conduct, and since you evidently are trying to disagree, I take it we’re to understand you to take the position that theology has no impact on conduct.

Bill — thanks for your thoughts. However, I never said we can go too far in the grace of God. Not the real grace of God. Now, there’s the “gutless grace” school, whose idea of grace is that it cancel’s sin’s guilt but doesn’t do much to its power. They’d certainly cry up “grace.” Is that the grace of the Bible?

The grace of God of which I read “has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age” (Titus 2:11b-12). My one point, again: the issues of life flow from the heart (Proverbs 4:23). The heart is characterized by convictions, beliefs, worldview. Bad fountainhead, bad spring.

Do not misunderstand. What I’m saying is my sole point IS my sole point. I’m not saying that scoring 100 on a really hard ST final will guarantee a holy walk. And just about everything Tim said resonated very well with me as well.


62. Peter Smythe
November 6, 2006
5:22 PM

Dan, actually I was just demonstrating that your underlying premise is flawed. From my reading, Joey picked up on the flaw too.


63. Samuel
November 6, 2006
5:26 PM

Tim,

Most of your comments were true. Yet I am not so sure they were well balanced. I am quite aware that any Christian can fall at anytime and that God’s grace is truly amazing. However I believe some people are also down playing sin and God’s holiness. We must be careful to not let the world teach us theology. We in America tend to soften up some of the Bible’s views because it really doesn’t fit our culture. Let’s take a step back, and really see what the Bible has to say about the issue of sin in the Church and go from there. May we also continue to pray for Ted and his family and church. And the Church as a whole, especially our leaders. May God give us more grace and love and with both a discernment for truth.


64. billmelone
November 6, 2006
5:43 PM

Dan- cool. Its just that your initial question to Tim about possibly ignoring the importance of stating rotten theology brings rotten practive implied that we can split God’s grace from our knowledge of him. It seems to me that that is what Slice (and reformed gadfly by extension) is often guilty of: talking about holiness/sinfulness but never talking as if they were part of the story of the bible. Talking about the ‘rotten’ theology of others/Haggard is what has been stated over and over again, and it seems that Tim is correcting an overstatement by the rest of the blogosphere, drawing us back into the most important place—the gospel.

Peter- I didn’t interact with you yet, but heres my perspective: I sinned today. I sinned yesterday and the day before that. If you take my profession of faith to be genuine, and think I’m not a sinner you’re saying I didn’t sin. Statements like that are nice, but don’t have any hands or feet in the real world.


65. billmelone
November 6, 2006
5:48 PM

Samuel, we can tell seeker-sensitive types that they don’t have enough understanding of God’s holiness all we want, but what really convinces them is the kind of sincerity that Tim is showing here by putting himself in the story of the gospel, talking about himself as if the gospel were true. Its far too easy to talk ABOUT the gospel, but that doesn’t convince anyone, and I know that from experience.


66. lisa4given
November 6, 2006
6:36 PM

“Bad theology will eventually hurt people and dishonor God in proportion to its badness.”(—John Piper)

“Theology is a lived discipline—we LIVE what we BELIEVE.”(—Al Mohler)

The man who has led the purest life, when he is brought before God by the humbling influence of the Holy Spirit, is the man who almost invariably considers himself to have been viler than anybody else.(—Spurgeon)

I apologize for so many quotes… but these men speak what I am thinking.


67. Keyser Soze
November 6, 2006
6:38 PM

Tim - just curious….why do you call Haggard a brother in Christ? What evidence would you use in support? I have a hard time understanding people saying someone is a brother in Christ when said subject’s (Haggard) theology and practice (obvious in this case) states to the contrary. Also interested in any Scriptural basis for giving people the benefit of doubt as “brothers” just on profession of faith with no evidence of salvation (this includes saying famous people are brothers/sisters like Rick Warren, Billy Graham, Jane Fonda etc). Isn;t everyone considered lost unless their is reason to think otherwise?


68. DJ
November 6, 2006
7:04 PM

Praise God for this post Tim! You have drawn us, like Jesus, to our own corrupt hearts and need for repentance. Thank you for saying these real and truthful words.


69. Keyser Soze
November 6, 2006
7:14 PM

One other question for those agreeing with Tim’s position on this - what occasions (if any) justify being disgusted with something and stating such and avoid being called graceless, unforgiving, etc? Isn’t it possible to be disgusted, repulsed and tired of phonies, yet still be graceful enough to say that left to my own devices, I am capable of the very same thing? I think a response needs to be balanced - mercy AND truth. That being said, I am not saying that Tim’s post was one sided, just that most of what I have read on various blogs and comments has been on the grace side - and minimizes the fact that Haggard is one sick dude (Christian or not)


70. thewitnessman
November 6, 2006
7:23 PM

Keyser Soze - Anyone who confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord is our brother. Our ‘brotherhood’ is not based on whether we keep the commands: ours is a brotherhood of faith. The world says ‘if you mess up then you go down’, but we are not of this world. If jesus can forgive the prostitute who would have engaged in sexually immoral stuff on many, many ocassions then he can forgive Ted Haggard.

We have all failed to keep the commands, so by your reasoning none of us are brothers. But the Bible is clear that we are all brother’s and sister’s in Christ. We have no right to say someone who believes in Christ is not our brother because he sinned; you too have sinned.

You say “isn’t everyone considered lost unless their is reason to think otherwise”. This seems strange and totally against the heart of Jesus. Yes, all are considered lost until they come to Christ - once they have made the confession that Jesus Christ is Lord then they are sons and daughters of God.

Do really think God is so callous that he would abandon one of his sons because he tripped up? Remember, before you answer, that if you have lusted then you have committed a sin just as great as Ted.


71. Tyler Wallick
November 6, 2006
7:30 PM

Witness - perhaps my post was misunderstood. My question was pertaining to the assumption someone is a believer. A Mormon would call themselves a Christian, yet their “Christ” is another Jesus. So a general profession in Christ means nothing - anyone can say it. Only ones life proves it. I guess that was my point…..


72. Tim Challies
November 6, 2006
7:38 PM

Keyser - I posted this link earlier, explaining my understanding of judging another person’s salvation. Essentially, I think we are not in a position to judge other people’s salvation. If a person claims to be a believer, I think we have little reason to anything other but give him the benefit of the doubt. Even a sin of this magnitude can be commited by a believer (which was kind of the point of my article, really).


73. Keyser Soze
November 6, 2006
8:03 PM

Tim - thanks for the link (sorry I missed it!). I appreciate your thought-out posts - always edifying whether I agree or not!


74. Brian T. at voiceofthesheep
November 6, 2006
8:11 PM

Essentially, I think we are not in a position to judge other people’s salvation. If a person claims to be a believer, I think we have little reason to anything other but give him the benefit of the doubt.

Tim,
I am not coming down on the side of those who are questioning Haggard’s salvation (personally, I think that is counter-productive to any constructive dialogue about all of this), but your statements above need some clarification, I think.

You said that we are not in a position to judge another’s salvation, and that if a person claims to be a believer, then you think we have little reason to anything other than to give them the benefit of the doubt. I remember this discussion from January, and I don’t want to rehash a lot of it here. But (conjunction of contrast), are you making those statements above as a general broadsweeping declaration?

Are there no circumstances that would warrant treating a professing believer as an unbeliever?

Thanks.


75. Pastor Ken Silva
November 6, 2006
8:19 PM

Tim,

You quoted Reformed Gadfly from Slice: “Stuff like this can only happen because contemporary Christianity is rotten to the core.”

And then you say: “No, no, no! Stuff like this happens because we are rotten to the core! Stuff like this happens because I am rotten to the core.”

As the person who felt led of the Lord to use that quote from RG on Slice I need to tell you that both of these comments are true but you may have inadvertantly ended up phrasing this in the fallacy of the false analogy.

As Dr. John MacArthur recently said America has been abandoned by God, and I add with it an evangelicalism which never fully renounced its humanism. So, things like this happen because contemporary Christianity is rotten to the core (apples).

And things like this also happen as well because people themselves are rotten to the core (oranges). Both fruit (albeit in this case rotten) but still different. These comments are different sides of the same issue. Nothing prophetic, pathetic would be the better word.

The American Church is dying and its dying because we are rotten to the core and the sum total of these rotten parts are the Church. For me this has very little to do with Ted haggard himself but rather with Jesus telling Christians in America they had now better be hot or cold because there is more spewing coming.

For more you are welcome to check out my post “Dr. John MacArthur Speaks at SBTS”:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/dr_john_macarth.html


76. John Lee
November 6, 2006
8:21 PM

Excuse me, but why is everyone so quick to jump onto Haggard’s side?

I am not commenting here on Haggard’s homosexuality. Indeed, the fact that he struggled alone for so many years is something to be sympathetic about, for we have all struggled with our own personal demons, whatever they may be. But please, let’s not forget that Haggard is not a person who simply struggled with sinning. He did something much worse, and for this he deserves our denouncement. Let’s call a spade a spade, shall we?

Haggard has exercised rank hypocrisy and brazen deceit. This is the kind of falseness, the kind of deceit which is despicable. It is the very deceit which led him to attempt to cover-up the scandal with the most inane of excuses and lies. It is the very deceit which is callous enough to spew further lies in front of his wife and kids. What kind of man exposes his children to that kind of line of questioning out of self-interest? (I’m sorry, Challies, but your angle on the children-in-the-backseat-interview is way off-base).

Why are we so soft on Haggard? I agree that many who are coming down hard on him do so out of a sense of self-righteousness - it is done to make oneself look “good.” But the same kind of thinking is found in the opposite approach - the soft Challies approach. If what Haggard has done - rank deceit - is not so bad, then, hey, I can’t be so bad after all.

There is a time and place for outright denouncement. I denounce Haggard. I denounce him for the inestimable damage and hurt he has cast his family into. I denounce him for the years (decades?) of deceit and the rawest, rankest hypocrisy. I denounce him for how he has hurt his congregation, and caused some to doubt their faith.


77. lisa4given
November 6, 2006
8:48 PM

THere is a place for discerning in all of this. Discernment really does boil down to righteous judgement that is seasoned with grace but not at the expense of truth.
For example, I question the salvation of Jan and Paul Crouch. They profess to be genuine Christians. I beg to differ in light of what else they proclaim. I could go on… but you probably know where I am headed.


78. Jerry M
November 6, 2006
9:02 PM

I think Jesus would have a problem with the idea that everyone who confesses Him as Lord is saved [Matt. 7:21-23].

However - I think the evidence of Haggard’s salvation or lack thereof will be in what he does now that he has been caught. Will he genuinely repent, etc? That is the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints after all.

Believers are capable of horrible things. [King David]
But - they also genuinely repent. We should remember this was no one time stumble - this was a prolonged period of deceit and immorality of the type which a person in the pew would be disciplined out of the church for.

There will be no Christian homosexuals in heaven - only people who repented of their homosexuality.

As an aside - I have a former pastor who attends my church who ‘fell’ on 3 separate occasions. Now that he is no longer in ministry - he says that he does not feel the temptation. He is still married and seeking to make his marriage better and seems to be on the right track.

There is no question that Satan seeks leaders in high profile positions.

However - with that said. I would not hesitate to affirm there is a definite connection between doctrine and practice.

The man in my church who fell was of a free grace/ no lordship theology. I’m hoping that he is beginning to come around.

Tim, I appreciate your gracious spirit.

Your post reminds me of Chesterton who was once asked to write an essay on what is wrong with the world [by London Times?]. He submitted: Dear sirs, I am.


79. Scott Davison
November 6, 2006
9:07 PM

I was deeply touched by your post as I reflected on my response the evening it was exposed. I thought no, no, no, how is it that this man was hurting inside for so long without someplace he could find grace. I guess the sinfulness shouldn’t surprise us but I do feel the conviction to be available to people to miss steps in their live, miss steps that will be caught by the hand of a brother or sister.
I also quickly realize why people can’t come forward as I read some of the evil that oozes from the graceless christians in the blogosphere. Tim though your post wsould give one hope to embrace grace, many do not.

A fellow fallen brother saved by nothing but Grace


80. Jesse
November 6, 2006
9:45 PM

To Deborah

Regarding Bob’s observation. He is precisely correct. What is sorely missing in the Churches, is a real discernment of what the true gospel is, and who is and who is not preaching it.

Have compassion on sinners, yes.

Consider the falleness of leadership, it is mighty.

But the quick undiscerning acceptance of one as being an authentic believer is part of the down fall of the Church today.

God has abandoned America, in many ways, and you can see it, by what comes out of the pulpits, and how the people respond to it.

As well as the bold soceity of reprobates who both mock the Church and blaspheme without fear.

Mr. Haggard is a sign, much like others decades ago. Our Churches are in fatal spiritual trouble

Here are several verses to consider!

Jer 5:31 7:11-16 Isa 3:1-12 Ezek 14:1-11 Mt 7:15-23 Mt 24:24 1Tim 6:3-12 2cor 6:14-18

If you read these verses carefully, with the Spirits illumination, you will see things a lot different than your average uninformed Christian.


81. Alex Chediak
November 6, 2006
9:51 PM

A great post, Tim. Thank you.


82. Jamie Cain
November 6, 2006
10:06 PM

I was really grateful to find this post. (And this blog.)

John Lee asked why all were jumping to Ted Haggard’s side. I’m not sure that’s what’s happening here at all. Sure, in one sense, we leap to Haggard’s “defense” in the spirit of Galatians 6:1a. But the flip side of that is 6:1b, which encourages us to do just what Sufjan Stevens asks in “John Wayne Gacy”: to “look beneath the floorboards” for our own secrets (also mentioned in these comments).

The idea that we should engage in denunciation seems to me very uncharitable. Even to the one who denied him Jesus offered restoration. To make Ted Haggard’s sin any more or less than Peter’s would be naive.

Nuff said on that. Tim, I’ll make this site a regular now.


83. TONY
November 6, 2006
10:13 PM

Tim … your post has the folks at SLICE wondering if their discussion on Haggard has been right. It’s not. The very fact that they opened up their posts on Haggard to comments reveals their lack of integrity. Let’s take cheap shots at the fallen—read the comments! SLICE lacks grace and integrity!

What’s wrong with Evangelicalism? SLICE.

One other point … a lot has been said about sins of leadership having a greater negative effect (true), but let’s not forget that the sins of teh saints effect the ministry. We all need grace.


84. Brian Thornton
November 6, 2006
10:30 PM

The idea that we should engage in denunciation seems to me very uncharitable.

What seems uncharitable to me is the negative mindset toward those who find the deception and deliberate practice of sin repulsive, and have spoken out about it.

I just listened to the first part of the service at New Life where the oversight body of Pastors spoke of the recent revelations, and read Ted’s letter and his wife’s as well. They mention that they had two choices, either to rebuke and restore Ted Haggard, or to dismiss him. And, after meeting with Ted and deliberating over the last couple of days, they decided to dismiss him rather than rebuke and restore him.

Now, was it uncharitable for them to publically denounce Haggard instead of restoring him after a rebuke? Was it unloving of them to do what they did instead of responding with, “There but by the grace of God go I.”?

I think their actions were charitable…not only to Haggard, but especially to the congregation. So, I don’t understand why it is considered uncharitable when some speak out against the blatant, willful deception of Ted Haggard that would still be going on today had his sin not been exposed by someone else.

It is shameful what he did to his wife, to his congregation, and to the reputation of Christ. And I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the process of restoring him according to Galatians 6.


85. KC
November 6, 2006
10:35 PM

Tim,

Thank you for this excellent post. At a deacons meeting Saturday, a fellow deacon reminded us all for the need to pray for our pastor - a fact that had slipped my mind in the midst of the unfolding controversy. My pastor humbly admitted that he too knew the depths of his heart and, as we all are, are one sinful decision away from destroying our marriages, our ministries, and subsequently, our lives.

As for those who wish to debate the nature or existence of Haggards salvation: pray for him either way. If you don’t think he is a believer then pray for his salvation. If you believe he is a believer then pray for his restoration of fellowship with the Father. If this does not satisfy your longings, then pray for me. I am a Christian who is training for minstry. Will I be the next Ted Haggard? Brom Clifford? Chuck Templeton? Jimmy Swaggart? Jim Baker?

Absolutely, call sin what it is and recognize the wages that it produces. However, if it be any man’s desire for another individual to continue in a state of punishment and condemnation of sin (believer or nonbeliever regardless), then I would be more apt to question the salvation of the person holding the desire, not the salvation of the one who is in the state of punishment and condemnation.


86. Forgiven
November 6, 2006
10:42 PM

I recall the first thought that came to my mind when I heard about the scandal, “oh no, more ammo to make fun of Christians.” Then I sat back and remembered the Sovereign God who is in control of everything. I remember how we as Christians should count it all joy when we encounter various trials, and this trial is not only hitting Mr. Haggard but the rest of those who call themselves as a Christian. It is a joy for me to proclaim to the world that we all need a Savior; even those who are high is the ranks. Your blog has once again confirmed my thoughts of how this scandal has reminded me of my sins, reminded me that I need to find my strength in God’s grace, and has reminded me that I am nothing apart from God. We can look at the negative aspect that may come about through this but let us stand together as believers, unified as one in spirit and mind to show the world, the unbelieving world that God does exist and they need a Savior.

Here’s a letter from Ted & Gayle Haggard to their church. It is very encouraging!

http://theologica.blogspot.com/2006/11/letters-from-ted-haggard-and-gayle.html


87. KC
November 6, 2006
10:49 PM

After re-reading the comment I just posted, I think that I need to clarify a few things. First, consequences of sin are always deserved. In Haggard’s case, his consequences will be first with his wife and children, next with his church community, and then with the greater evangelical community.

As Brian Thorton commented (#84), “And I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the process of restoring him according to Galatians 6.” However, we must bear in mind ALL of Galatians 6. 6:1 says “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him gently in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.” But Paul does not stop here. 6:1 is the easy part - recognize sin and call it what is is. 6:2 is much harder to enact: “Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.” This is what calls us to pray for Haggard’s restoration to fellowship with the Father. I think he has lost his priviglege of leading a church again, but he has not lost his sonship (presuming he is a believer).

Speak out against sin, absolutely. But can I do so in a spirit of carrying my brother’s burdens as opposed to adding weight to his load?


88. Brian Thornton
November 6, 2006
10:50 PM

if it be any man’s desire for another individual to continue in a state of punishment and condemnation of sin

KC, has anyone hinted that they have this desire?

SLICE lacks grace and integrity!
What’s wrong with Evangelicalism? SLICE.

Tony, why is it that you can say negative things about the integrity of SLICE, but others can’t point out the negative aspects of Haggard’s integrity? I find that a little inconsistent.


89. yikesmom
November 6, 2006
10:59 PM

Tim, once again I was moved to tears, tears for this man, his family, his former church family, how heartbreaking and you painted the picture well. I told my kids that sometime tomorrow we will be listening to Max Macleane’s rendition of “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God” cd that we have. We need to be reminded of who we are being saved from, daily, and it is not ourselves. Thanks again, I am hoping to regain my composure in the next few minutes to send your link to family and friends.


90. billmelone
November 6, 2006
10:59 PM

“Haggard has exercised rank hypocrisy and brazen deceit”

So have we all

“I denounce Haggard”

Denounce yourself along with him like Tim has done. The gospel is in large part recognizing that there is no difference between you and me and Haggard but the grace of God. The gospel is REAL, God’s holiness is real and we’re fools and hypocrites if we can denounce someone else and not ourselves.


91. Bob Hayton
November 6, 2006
11:02 PM

John Lee said…”There is a time and place for outright denouncement. I denounce Haggard. I denounce him for the inestimable damage and hurt he has cast his family into. I denounce him for the years (decades?) of deceit and the rawest, rankest hypocrisy. I denounce him for how he has hurt his congregation, and caused some to doubt their faith.”

I think this one of the inate reactions that the world would make. If a world leader fell like Haggard did, one of two reactions would be probable. Disdain, outrage and denouncement or a minimizing of the sin and an explaining away of his guilt.

It is exactly at this point that the other-worldliness of Christianity can be recognized. Christianity affirms the guilt and the blackness of the sin, yet at the same time realizes that if Haggard is indeed believing and confessing/forsaking his sin, ALL of that sin has already been put away through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for us on the cross.

Let us hope the best (1 Cor. 13:7) for Ted—(ie. that he is genuinely believing and that God is preserving his faith in and through this event). And let us emphasize that the Gospel is Glorious and Wonderful in that it takes care of the very real and deserved guilt that Ted Haggard has earned. Let us not attempt to either distance ourselves from Ted or explain away Ted’s guilt. Rather let us use this event as an illustration of the wonder of the Gospel.

Let this be an occasion that the Holy Spirit can use to reveal the spiritual truth of the Gospel to darkened hearts. Let us lift up Christ in conversations with unbelievers over this event. And further, let this be a time to point out that our hope is not in the NEA or the “religious right” movements, and neither is Ted Haggard’s ultimate hope, rather our hope is in the Gospel of Christ.


92. Brian Thornton
November 6, 2006
11:04 PM

This is what calls us to pray for Haggard’s restoration to fellowship with the Father. I think he has lost his priviglege of leading a church again, but he has not lost his sonship (presuming he is a believer).

KC makes a good point about bearing one another’s burdens. For those of us who are not close enough to the situation to actually be a part of the restoration process, it is our duty to pray for Ted. For those who are close enough, it is now their duty to hold Ted up spiritually as he is restored…not to office, but, as KC says… to fellowship with the Father…and with his brothers and sisters in Christ, assuming he is a fellow saint (of course, Challies says there is no basis for which to make that determination…if Haggard says he is a believer, we have no option but to assume that he is. I’m not sure I agree with that, as I think Scripture talks about bearing fruit in keeping with repentance, and time will reveal if that is the case with Haggard).

I pray those close to Ted Haggard will be willing to bear his burdens…


93. billmelone
November 6, 2006
11:05 PM

Brian, I wouldn’t say it like Tony did, but I do think that Haggard has repented, Slice hasn’t. I don’t like pointing fingers, but it seems clear to me that Slice and others have built a platform of ‘good theology’ as their acceptance before God by denouncing Haggard and not being humbled as they are reminded of the sinfulness of ALL humans including you, me and them.


94. Todd
November 7, 2006
12:10 AM

Tim,
What an amazingly honest and convicting post. I went through many of the very thoughts and feelings that you have had and then I started to see my own sinfulness. But by the Grace of God indeed. I will share this message and post with other brothers as I believe this to be our only legitimate response. Thanks again for this powerful post.

Todd


95. RCH
November 7, 2006
12:12 AM

I just finished listening to an interview that CJ Mahaney did at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that is well worth listening to in light of this tragedy. Though he is primarily addressing seminary students, I believe we all can benefit from this wise counsel. See ‘Leadership in the Local Church’ Oct 25 2006 at the link below:
http://www.sbts.edu/resources/Audio_Resources/Mahaney


96. John Lee
November 7, 2006
12:23 AM

Has Christianity become so soft that we cannot look a man in his face and tell him that what he has done is despicable? Do we have to couch all of our words with the sickly-saccharine phrases of “forgiveness, “mercy,” “we’re all sinners alike”?

Since when did being holy and godly mean that we couldn’t tell it as it is?

Don’t get me wrong. I am not condemning a man for his homosexuality. In this case I am, however, saying that the purposeful deceit and rank hypocrisy with which he pastored the church is worthy of outright denouncement. He may not have had been able to temper his sexual predeliction, but he certainly had control over whether he would bring falsehood and hypocrisy into a pulpit. In fact, contrary to what is being posted here, I believe it is a Christian imperative to point out his deceit. He consciously made fools of his congregation, and was fully aware of the great disparity between his walk and his talk. Yet still he took in his congregation’s tithing, still he soaked in their attention and adulation, still he went on fooling his wife, endangering her with his risky sexual behavior. All the while, he preached faithfulness, love, integrity, purity.

We are to love him - to utterly and wholly love him. To pray that his path to restoration would be whole. And we are to utterly, utterly despise his shameful actions, to name them for what they are.

Please. Enough of this soft pedaling. The Gospel isn’t always about holding hands and singing “We are the World.” Sometimes it’s about making whips in the temples, sometimes it is using direct and straight language as Jesus and Paul would on occasion.

Check out Post #84 - a rare post of truth amidst this chaff of sentimental fluff.


97. KS
November 7, 2006
12:34 AM

It doesn’t matter what colour of theology you like to spin. Sin is sin no matter. I am always comforted though that God did not destroy David - a womanising murder, nor did he cast Peter who denied him three times then skulked away. You can multiply the examples of ‘crude’ sin … the issue is though, is that sin is sin. An evil thought is as good as murder, a lustful look as good as having commited the act. How many of we men are guilty of these…

I come from a reformed theology background and am convicted in my own mind that this is a thoroughly reasonable and reasoned way to regard scripture. As a young christian I was taught the doctrines of grace by men who were in reality covering there own sin - one was a wife basher and child abuser, another someone whom you couldn’t trust around children (as was evident in the way truth has its out..). Having the right theology was no guard to the heart.

God’s grace is sufficient - the church a corinth bears fact to that.

May God over rule for good in this situation - the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. May the church of which Mr haggard belongs return/find for first time, to the gospel of grace.


98. John Lee
November 7, 2006
12:42 AM

…And since we all seem to be falling in love with what Challies has written, let me tell you what I think. Challies is a good writer, but don’t let the artistry blind you. Challies has stated:

“Every day I see in my heart that I am no different than Ted Haggard.”

Inasmuch as we all battle our personal demons, I’m with you 100% Challies. Some battle homosexuality. Some battle greed or pride or anger or sexual fidelity. It runs the gamut. To the extent you’re saying that me, you, Haggard must do battle with sin, I’m with you.

But…

There is a fundamental difference between what Haggard has done and the average run-of-the-mill sinner. Haggard held himself up to be a man of God, a spiritual man whose lifestyle deserved emulation. He held himself up to be a godly, holy man, perhaps not perfect, but saintly nonetheless. But this was a man who would have sex with a male prostitute on saturday night then wake up the next morning and preach. Rather than resign from the ministry to deal with his weakness, he kept on the facade. He slapped God in the face every time he stepped into the pulpit. He pulled the wool over the eyes of his congregation; he attempted to pull the wool over the eyes of the nation with his silly cover-up lies when the story first broke up.

Take the wool from your eyes, Challies & Co. It’s okay to hate what he did. It’s okay to denounce. In fact, it might be Christ-like to denounce it. See Matt. 23:27-28.


99. Ross Royden
November 7, 2006
1:14 AM

No John, it’s not alright to denounce. It’s fine to say that certain behaviour is wrong. But Jesus words not to judge lest we too be judged should lead us to be humble here. No-one can know what was going on in Ted Haggard’s heart and life except God. Ted Haggard probably doesn’t even know himself.

I lose my temper, argue with my wife, and do a whole host of things, that I have no intention of mentioning here, on a Saturday and then get up on a Sunday and preach. Am I a cynical hypocrite, ‘slapping God in the face’ every time I preach? I do hope not. I am though a thoroughly ordinary sinner who by God’s grace is trying to be a saint as well. Judging a brother who falls is not something that I in all conscience can do.


100. steveprost
November 7, 2006
1:28 AM

“…There is really no difference between you and Haggard or between myself and Haggard. We are all totally depraved with our sin… What is in Haggard is in me. What is in me is in you… We are every bit as sinful and fallible and willful and depraved as Haggard; perhaps more so… what is in Haggard is in me…”

Tim Challies is wrong. He’s right to want to have us check ourselves to know that the sinful nature that fadingly clings to us as new creations is utterly despicably evil. He’s right to speak against the pride that would want to feel superiority and a sense of “I’m not so bad” by looking at another’s manifestation of wickedness. But there are in my view subtle but important biblical problems with what Tim, as a gifted writer and Christian thinker, states very popularly here in terms of both doctrine and emotional response.

There “IS a difference between the “normative” truly born again person and Haggard.

There “IS really a difference” between the “normative” called pastor-teacher and Haggard.

Saying otherwise is only extending the slander of Christianity of this past week.

I feel like I am skating on thin ice saying something that seems so much like the Pharisee pointing to a sinner saying something akin to “thank God I am not like that sinner” in the temple. And I am certainly in the great minority of Christian thinkers who I have read or heard react to this whole sordid ordeal in not striking as a primary emotional chord sympathy for Reverend Haggard and recognition that he and I are not really that different, at least in the Reformed circles I listen to. But to say a repeated continual homosexual offender and liar and hypocrite of the highest sort who accepted high responsibility and brings this level of shame onto our church should be treated as, at essence, no different in nature than any other Christian brings shameful reproach on the effect of Christ in one’s life, and God’s standards of holiness in the Christian community, and is thankfully not true or biblical.

Just as the bible makes clear that we all remain sinners to our deaths and that righteousness is only by faith, it also makes clear in the Old Testament and New that there is an extremely profound difference in the heart and lifestyle of the ‘righteous’ and ‘unrighteous’, children of light and children of darkness. Distinctions are made between those who profess Christianity and believe it with dead-faith intellectual assent and those who have a true saving faith that will place them among those with sheep-conduct rather than goat-conduct. From the Sermon on the Mount to John’s hardhitting epistles on the test of being a true rather than counterfeit Christian, we learn being truly saved truly makes a difference, and there are degrees of sin in terms of regularity and heinousness that at some point are to be treated as utterly incompatible with true faith, utterly incompatible with participation in the Christian community. There are multiple lists of the kind of conduct that, when they are part of the ongoing character of a “Christian”, are stated as prohibitions to entering the kingdom of God. Therefore, when they arise in the lifestyle of a professing Christian, they are to be treated at BEST as extremely anomalous to what is normative for born again believers, if not prima facie evidence for a probationary period of “having denied the faith and being worse than an unbeliever”. We have small regard for the holiness of the community God requires and a fear of judgment that can affect the community based on actions of one or a few. Reverend Haggard should be scorned and shamed for a season, counseled to get on his knees like King David during such a time and beg that the Holy Spirit to whatever limited extent he truly experienced it before be not taken from him. Peter and Paul seemed to judge people to have shipwrecked their faith or of “having no share” in Christ for much smaller in the New Testament it seems to me. Instead, we want to hug him and say we’re no different. I am NOT judging Rev. Haggard’s true spiritual state; I am judging the unbiblical total absence today of even bringing up the idea that someone’s utterly sinful conduct could suggest we must separate them and fearfully hold our noses as we announce for the sake of holiness in the community “this is utterly incompatible with real ‘Christianity’ and is LIKELY to be rotten fruit from an unsaved heart.”

But perhaps more important to me, I do not see Christians expressing emotions of outrage and anger over what has been done to the glory of Jesus Christ by one who has presumed to hold himself out as a leader for the evangelical church. There is no word in Tim’s statement, or the great majority of comments here that praise it, of what has been done to the glory of Christ and his body, the Church, be it only for a season. I see focus, concern, and empathy for Haggard whose been paid so richly, even after the allegations arose was willing to deceivingly bring James Dobson in on his defense until forced to further admission; I see concern that we not also fall into similar sin, and surely that is appropriate. But certainly the greater dreadful fearful grievous emotion should be the ruin to our cause of “letting our light shine before men that they may see our good deeds and PRAISE OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN”. Where is the sympathy or grief for the millions of ‘little ones led astray’, for the millions of lost sheep who will now laugh, scorn, mock, or give up and say “why bother, they’re all a bunch of perverse disgusting hypocrites” on their way to eternal punishment. When the bible speaks of having fear in response to others sin and warning about our reaction as a community, there is great warning (e.g., by Paul in epistles and by Christ in letters of Revelation) not to tolerate gross evil by members… let alone by those we allow to parade around in as figurehead leaders of bible-believing evangelicals.

The fear we should have is NOT that we would fall into the same sin, Tim. The fear that we should have is that you are correct, that whether that sin manifests itself or not we are really still just as sinful in the core of our hearts as Rev. Haggard. Because if that is true (and maybe it is) then most of us are either not saved or in such critical condition that great judgment is probably about to fall from the consuming fire on us as Jesus warned it was about to fall upon several of the churches He wrote to in Revelation.


101. David Dansker
November 7, 2006
1:31 AM

Mat 24:42-51 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


102. BD
November 7, 2006
2:31 AM

Tim:
Canadian traditional media, all forms of it, did cover this story, and they gave good background and facts.

CTV, CBC, Globe and Mail, CP, Canada.com, Bourque News carried Canadian headlines on it, Toronto Star, London Free Press, Calgary Heraldm etc, etc…various radio stations. Canadian alternative media covered this story.

I can understand 99% percent of Canadians wouldn’t know who Haggard is, they don’t know who Jamie Buckingham is either. But it doesn’t mean they don’t get covered.
Google Haggard, he’s gotten Canadian coverage prior to this.


103. Steve
November 7, 2006
3:26 AM

I agree, in part, with Tim’s evaluation of the “haggard” dificulty. I agree that we are all sinners, that he epitomizes many of the statutes and difficulties under which we humans live and die.
But some of the underlying principals are based on a fallacy propitiated by and under the idea of “total depravity”. A concept not taught in scripture, but one derived from the ideas of a man who brought his thoughts of scripture to the table and used scripture to attempt to validate them.
The only way to substantiate these ideas are to have the ideas in the first place and then use scripture in a fashion to support the idea…rather than letting scripture say what it means and derive the meaning from it. If the “total depravity” doctrine were to say that we are all sinners…I could give a rousing ‘Amen!’. Or if all that were implied were that one man alone, or all men combined, were unable to save themselves then I would shout…’That is the truth!” But there is more to it than that.
Calvin wrote…”The decision of salvation and death belong to Him. He orders all things by His counsel and decree, in such a manner that some men are born, devoted from the womb, to certian death, that His name may be glorified in their destruction.”
Odd? Scripture says…2nd Ptr. 3:9 “the Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
2nd Cor, 7: 8-10 “Even if I caused you sorrw by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it - I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while - yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorow led you to repentance. For you became sorrow-ful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.”
Over and over scripture brings us a picture of people who by benefit of the power of God’s word are able to choose a life for God, yet so many cling to Calvin’s teachings that deny most of scripture, and the intent of the God in those words.
A God who’s desire is not to write the play, play all the players, and in the end; say that some of the players were wrong for the parts they played in the play they had no part in…but was written and thrown together with no thought of them in mind.
Ask yourself some basic questions…why does God describe Himself and our relationship with Him in terms of a marriage, and family, with Himself as Father? Because, as you love your children, He loves you. As you raise your children you give them rules and regulations, requirements and expectations…to guide them, keep them safe, to teach them life lessons and the morality of the life you expect of them. Yet as they grow older…the rules become less the point and the relationship is the rule. The laws are part of who they are…the teachings a part of their makeup…but now the relationship begins. This is how men like David, and Job, and Daniel, and more, were able to endure all that they faced, under a law that was nothing but rules and regulations. Because they knew; they had understood; that it was not about the rules and regulations…but about the relationship with God.
A relationship not based on Calvin’s idea of scripture, but on a relatiohship with a creator that wanted to interact, love, His creations…and have His creations know Him.
I find it odd that scripture denies most of the basic tennts of Calvin’s theology. God creating some of us to die…but scripture saying that God is not willing that ANY of us should die, but that all should come to repentance. The only option is that in the awesomeness that is God, He surpasses anything that Calvin even suspected and is able to be God in all His glory and power, with no diminishment of any aspect of His person, be in charge of all creation, and all that goes on…and still give His creation the ability to choose to follow and serve Him, without interfering or being part of it, any more than His word says….His WORD is powerful…able to bring us to repentance.
This is a far more powerful and awesome God than Calvin described…in any form.


104. Hans van den Dolder
November 7, 2006
4:12 AM

Hi Everyone

All Christians sin ,We all agree on that,What saddens me is that many christians still believe that your actions can jeopardise our salvation.
Once saved always saved!.You did not get your salvation by works,neither can you loose it by your works.
What you CAN loose is rewards (crowns etc.)
Once you have confessed the Lord Jesus as your saviour your saved Thats it Nothing can take your salvation away.
Think of the man who committed incest in the church of Corinth.Paul said that he has to be handed over to satan so that his soul be saved.

He never lost his salvation but he lost his rewards and his life.

I so wish churches will stop teaching “Saved by faith through grace and some works” instead of “saved by faith through grace alone”

Thats what is happening these days.

Regarding brother Haggard:He has confessed his sin and is forgiven No man may judge him.I will pray for his poor family and for him.I am sure we will meet in the coming kingdom as followers of Jesus christ.


105. John Lee
November 7, 2006
7:18 AM

Ross (#99),

As Christians, we are to have discernment. That means we are to know the difference between good and evil, between holiness and sin. We are to uphold and celebrate the former, while denouncing (and not coddling) the latter.

Are we in agreement so far? If not, then stop reading - there’s nothing further to discuss. But if you do agree with me so far, I have another question:

If we are not to denounce the actions of Haggard, then in what possible situation are we supposed to? Splashed all over his actions are the stains of hypocrisy and deceit. If the Christian community does not denounce his actions, then we are more post-modern than we care to admit, i.e., we have relativized sin.

Think again about what he has done. Your temper, your arguments with your spouse that you mention in your post, those are all part and parcel of fallen nature - and we all share the same struggle with you there. We all deal with them, ask God for forgiveness and cleansing for those moments of weakness. But there is a fundamental difference between “your” type of sin and Haggard’s type of sin. To fail to recognize that is to betray a shocking lack of discernment.

Do you recognize that fundamental difference? Do you know what it is? It is this inability of the Christian community to recognize this difference which is disappointing.


106. Gina
November 7, 2006
7:36 AM

Tim,

I try to read your blog on a daily basis (yes, sometimes even on the weekend). I am always blessed by your writing. This article in particular has much balance and wisdom. What you have written is so true, there but the grace of God go I.

Thank you.


107. Jerry M
November 7, 2006
7:43 AM

Some verses that tell an individual not to think they are in a saved state if they live like Haggard was living:

I John 2:3 - ‘By this we know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments’

James 1:22 - ‘Prove yourselves doers of the word and not hearers only who delude themselves’

Matt. 7:21-23 - ‘Many will say, ‘Lord, Lord … and I will say, ‘Depart from me you who practice lawlessness.’

Gal. 5:19 - ‘Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are immorality, impurity, sensuality … drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.’

I Cor. 6:9 - ‘Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators or idolators or adulterers, nor effiminate, nor homosexuals … shall inherit the kingdom of God.’

Titus 1:16 - ‘Professing to know God but by their deeds they deny Him’

Rom. 10:9 - ‘that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved.’

Luke 6:46 - ‘Why do you call Me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?’


108. Phyllis
November 7, 2006
8:14 AM

When reading Ted Haggard’s letter to the church on the church website, I couldn’t help but find a parallel between Ted and St. Augustine. St. Augustine wrestled with sexual immorality and the conviction of the truth for a good number of years. Finally, it was in a garden that he, through God’s grace, denounced all for Christ. He lived out his days as a Theologian.
Could it be that Ted Haggard was in the same place as St. Augustine, living with sexual desires with God’s spirit convincing him of sin, but the consummation of repentence/grace had not been fully realized?
I have more questions than answers, but maybe we should not assume salvation. Not in order to condemn the man, but in order to help us all understand the work of God in our hearts and lives.
Tim, thank you for bringing glory to God through your post on this matter. This, we know, is what all believers are called to do.
In Him,
Phyllis


109. Mark Huelsing
November 7, 2006
8:34 AM

Tim,

This is likely the best blog post I have ever read. It simply tells it like it is. To God be the glory. I get sick of blogging Christians who they think know the “right thing”, or that their “style” is the best. Why argue about such matters. This post should be eye opening and soul scarring. Thank you for your honesty!

Mark


110. Bibliomaniac
November 7, 2006
8:43 AM

Tim said, “Stuff like this can only happen because contemporary Christianity is rotten to the core.”

No, no, no! Stuff like this happens because we are rotten to the core! Stuff like this happens because I am rotten to the core.”


Thank you for saying that, Tim. That needed to be said!


111. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 7, 2006
8:48 AM

Tim,

I have what I think is a very important question in light of all of this, and I hope you and others will be willing to address it. I have listened to approx. the first twenty-five minutes of the service where the outside overseers of New Life (Haggard’s church) addressed the congregation and explained what action they took concerning Ted Haggard. You can find that audio HERE

I find it interesting that they did not stand up in front of the congregation and say, “We are all just as sinful as Ted haggard, and there but by the grace of God go we”. What they did was explain that they had a decision to make between two routes of action:

1. Discipline and restore Haggard
2. Dismiss him altogether from his position

In the service they explained that after meeting with Ted and examining his actions over the last few days, they decided (with the counsel of pastors “all across the country”) to dismiss him rather than discipline him.

Now, my question to Tim and others is this:

IF Tim Challies is right that we should just say ‘There but by the grace of God go us’, and ‘there is really no difference between you and Haggard or between myself and Haggard’…then WHY did the oversight board choose to dismiss him instead of to discipline and restore him? Did the board do the right thing in your eyes? If not, why? If so, then aren’t their actions directly contradictory to your position that all sin is equally the same?

I personally am very pleased with the swift and decisive actions of this overseer board to remove Ted, and I am so thankful that they did not act according to the thinking that we are all equally sinful. Can you imagine them standing in front of that congregation and saying, “Dear people, yes, Ted sinned…but he has repented and he is now forgiven and we should all agree that there but by the grace of God go us, because our sin is really no different than his sin.” A choice of action like that would have been devastating, wouldn’t it?

Instead, they decided to denounce him and dismiss him. So, I ask you, Tim, and others again…IF what Tim has stated here is the true and correct and right perspective to take on all of this, then WHY didn’t the oversight board take that approach?

Thanks.


112. Heather
November 7, 2006
9:06 AM

Tim,
I’d just like to add my thanks for your thoughts. They very much echo what has been on my heart since last week. I read all the comments and now feel a bit discouraged from some of the comments left. Next time, I think I’ll just read your post and leave it at that.


113. drliz
November 7, 2006
10:34 AM

Brian:

It isn’t appropriate (logically) to compare the actions of the elders to Tim’s feelings of compassion for fellow man and recognition of our potential for sin and need for grace. The elders (by whatever term they may be called) have a specific role within the church to administer discipline to members/believers. Tim does not indicate anywhere (as far as I remember) that he disagreed with the decision made to remove Haggard. If he were an elder in this church, I suspect he would have come to the exact same decision.

It is possible to feel compassion and “but for the grace of God…” and nevertheless impose punishment or discipline on someone. (I suspect parents and judges know this all too well.)

Dr. Liz


114. connie
November 7, 2006
10:36 AM

Over the years, situations like the T. Haggard matter have caused me to say, “I’m often disappointed, but rarely surprised.”

I’m “rarely surprised” because I know what I am capable of—apart from God’s grace and mercy.

I’m “often disappointed” because situations like these cause the name of X to be soiled and His Church to be wounded.

Still, my firm foundation is in X through His word! I can and do rest in the assurance that God “causes ALL things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purposes.”

As always, we must continually seek Him for His grace, mercy, discernment, and compassion.


115. donsands
November 7, 2006
10:45 AM

A grace centered post is always a delight and convicting to read. As were the comments.

The Lord gives us a lot to think about when a big time pastor is revealed to have chronic hidden sins. Chronic sin is the key here for me.

Surely we are all sinners who struggle with pride, self-centeredness, lust, and such and such. It’s when the struggle isn’t an authentic struggle, but we think it’s a struggle, when discipline is called for.
We may say we struggle with our anger, but we’re always angry. This isn’t struggling. This is saying, well that’s just the way I am, and God’s grace covers me. We need to take heed to this subtle lie of Satan.

The Word of God says repent. Put away your anger. God is faithful to set us apart. And if we never become sanctified of a particular chronic sin, then we need to accept the consequences, whatever they may be.

I know that I am most likely a worse sinner than Haggard. I feel for him, and for his wife and 5 children. He will loose respect from them, and that’s something that may remain with him the rest of his life.

Ted has repented, and James Dobson, Jack Hayford, and someone else are going to be working with him. This is good. May the Lord’s mercy fall upon these time of restoration.


116. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 7, 2006
10:46 AM

Dr Liz,

The ones who made the decision to dismiss Haggard were not the elders of New Life church. They were a board of outside overseers who obtained the counsel of (in the words of the spokesperson on the audio I linked to above) “pastors from all across the country”.

I also just read an outstanding comment from Rick Phillips at Reformation21:

No doubt, the falling of a Christian leader does present us an opportunity to show grace. But this is not the moment for that. Right now, the closer one is to Ted Haggard, the more ashamed he or she should be. Haggard has shamed the evangelicals before the culture, he has shamed the gospel ministry, and he has shamed the church that followed his leadership. He most certainly has shamed himself. And until we evangelicals start expressing shame over situations like this, the more we are going to experience them and the less we will really know about the true grace of God.


117. Lin
November 7, 2006
11:36 AM

>>but I do think that Haggard has repented,.>>

Are you saying that repentance is words on a piece of paper?

Repentance is sure tougher than that for me.


118. Daniel Portela
November 7, 2006
11:59 AM

Responding to Brian T. at voiceofthesheep, who said:

” Challies: “the problem was sin and the solution is Jesus”

Brian T.: “Unfortunately, this is an oversimplification that doesn’t really address anything pertinent to any specific problem within the church, including Haggard. Yes, we know the root of the problem is sin. But, the root to every problem is sin, isn’t it?

I think the Haggard mess (and others) should be evaluated beyond saying that he was a sinner like you and me, and there but by the grace of God go I. We know that already, don’t we?. But does saying that solve anything?” “

My remarks: why should we try to solve anything regarding this situation? We are not in a position to solve the problem with Haggard or the leadership positions left vacant in his church or the evangelical society. What is under our responsibility and what we can solve is to care for our lives so that we do not fall in the same manner.
As Tim finely pointed out, the way to do this is battling the sin that still inhabits our hearts and leaning on Christ. This is how we solve the problem. Personally and individually. I don’t think that Tim was saying that things should be said and not done. But the problem will only be solved individually, when the gospel is put into practice on a personal level. Of course this may stem out in many different ways, as you well said, sin is the cause of every problem, but I think you were the guilty one in over simplifying what Tim said.

Anyways, this has been teaching me a lot as I have recently been put in a leadership position and have felt a lot of the weight and responsibility that comes along with it.

God bless,

Daniel Portela


119. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 7, 2006
12:14 PM

Daniel,
Just for clarification, Tim did not say the quote that you cited from my comments. The statement, “the problem was sin and the solution is Jesus”, was from another commenter, not from Tim.

I just wanted to make that clear.


120. billmelone
November 7, 2006
12:17 PM

John Lee and Brian T@voice: I think (and I think Tim would agree) that we are to denounce what Haggard has done just like the overseer board did. But we denounce our sinful selves along with Haggard.
If I was on the overseer board, I would have done the same thing—because if it was me in Haggards position, I would want the same action—it is the best action for restoration—to God.

The problem is not gooey grace—its a lack belief that God’s holiness and your sinfulness is real. To say that there is a fundamental difference between Haggard and ourselves is a flat lie and testament that we think that there is something other than the grace of God that keeps us from what Haggard did.


121. jca
November 7, 2006
12:24 PM

Brian,

Unless you saw something I didn’t, I wouldn’t put words in Tim’ mouth that he was saying that all sins are the same, at least not in their human culpability. I think he was saying that before God (not the church) we all must give account and that it is God’s grace that keeps us from these situations of public shame.


122. Tim Challies
November 7, 2006
12:28 PM

“IF Tim Challies is right that we should just say ‘There but by the grace of God go us’, and ‘there is really no difference between you and Haggard or between myself and Haggard’…then WHY did the oversight board choose to dismiss him instead of to discipline and restore him? Did the board do the right thing in your eyes? If not, why? If so, then aren’t their actions directly contradictory to your position that all sin is equally the same?”

Hold on now. I said that in our heart of hearts there is no difference between Haggard and the rest of us. Men are not dismissed for having sinful hearts, but for acting out the desires of their sinful hearts. The oversight board rightly dismissed him and I agree with the decision that he should never be in ministry again. But I don’t think my view and this decision are contradictory at all. I don’t think Haggard should be excused for his sin. His sin, though, gives us all opportunity to look into our hearts and see that sin lurks there, too.


123. Tim Challies
November 7, 2006
12:29 PM

Brian - Incidentally, I said as much in my post. Look five paragraphs (or so) from the end and you’ll see that I think his overseers acted quickly, decisively and correctly.


124. john umland
November 7, 2006
12:33 PM

regarding Dan Edelen’s assertion of policy preventing sin #48. it can. if the church had a policy for him to never travel alone perhaps he would have been helped. but the *only* policy that might work is handcuffing the pastor to an assistant and hope the assistant isn’t compromised. if pastors are not a class apart, as you assert in your blog, then why can’t he submit himself to the Holy Spirit as we all do and fight the good fight without policies? any determined sinner can subvert and policy. a pastor who keeps bumping against policies is someone in danger and his board should be alarmed. but they won’t prevent sin.
God is good
jpu


125. Peter Smythe
November 7, 2006
12:43 PM

Response to Tim Challies: I agree that he should never be in ministry again.

In Galatians 3:15, Paul states that he was called from his mother’s womb. After that he went so far as to supervise the stoning of Stephen. Yet, he was not dismissed from ministry by the Lord.

In the Old Testament, Moses, knowing of the call of God, murdered an Egyptian. Later, he delivered the people of Israel and was used by God to hand down the Law.

Upon what scriptural basis is Haggard never supposed to enter ministry again? Just what sins, if any, disqualifies a man from fulfilling an inescapable calling on his life? And who makes that call?


126. Ian Clary
November 7, 2006
1:10 PM

Tim,
Thanks for your balance and your care in this post. It was such a sad and scary thing to see that video, especially with your directions to think on his wife and children. You are dead right when you say that this could be any of us, apart from the grace of God. Let us pray that our God would keep us from ever being in such a position as Ted Haggard. And by His grace may Haggard’s family and church be healed. May He use it to demonstrate the power of forgiveness and the seriousness of sin to Christians and non-Christians everywhere. Of one thing we can be sure in all of this, God will be glorified.


127. Tim Challies
November 7, 2006
1:28 PM

Peter - This is a difficult issue and one where there is plenty of disagreement among Christians (i.e. can a pastor who has failed morally be restored to the pastorate?). I don’t want to get too far into this issue lest we push this topic further astray. However, I think it bears mention that in both of the cases you pointed out, these men committed their sins before they were saved or called into ministry. This is an important distinction to make.


128. Joop
November 7, 2006
1:35 PM

To Hans van den Dolder #104

With all due respect, you’re wrong about OSAS. When a Christian sins, AND CONTINUE LIVING IN SIN WITHOUT REPENTING, will end up in hell. If Ted Haggard is not repenting, he will end up in hell. However, the Lord will forgive him when he truly repents. Please understand, being a Christian won’t allow us having a ‘license to sin’.
OSAS is a false doctrine. Read, en reread your bible. People can receive the Gospel and fall away after a while (Parables of the Sower) Other exemples: Demas, Judas Iskariot, Simon (Acts 8), Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim. 2:17,18), and many more.

Joop


129. Jamie Cain
November 7, 2006
1:41 PM

Denounce: (verb)
1. to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.
2. to make a formal accusation against, as to the police or in a court.

The second definition of denounce might be appropriate here with regard to Haggard himself. And denunciation of Ted Haggard’s sin is absolutely appropriate. What he has done is despicable and loathsomeand he has acknowledged as much.

But we are in no position to judge the existence or efficacy of his repentance. Time will tell if he can and does ‘produce fruit in keeping with repentance.’ The Scripture says that teachers will be judged more harshly, but it does not say that we should execute that judgment. Quite the opposite. That, I think is why usage #1 is off-limits for the Christian.

I think we all remember the woman caught in adultery. Textual problems aside, with no outward sign of the woman’s repentance, Jesus does not condemn, because he sees the heart. We cannot, and therefore we dare not condemn a person, though we decry their actions as sinful, unchristlike, whatever.

If we do, we join the smug Pharisee who was not justified.


130. Jamie Cain
November 7, 2006
1:43 PM

Oh, and the overseers’ dismissal of him is not denunciation either. Again, there is no condemnation (even if there is tremendous sadness at the man’s ongoing war with himself). They leave his judgment to God and care for the flock.

Admirable.


131. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 7, 2006
1:52 PM

Tim,

Thank you for your clarifying remarks above. The feeling I got while reading your initial post was different from what you just said in #122, as I got the sense from your article that you were somewhat dismissing Haggard’s practice of deceit and sin due to his depravity by saying we are all just like him. I think the following statement from you is what really caused me to think that:

If we look to Ted Haggard as a representative of all that is wrong in Evangelicalism, I think we miss the most important lesson. The lesson we need to learn is that we are every bit as sinful and fallible and willful and depraved as Haggard; perhaps more so.

Besides my disagreement with you about what is the most important lesson we need to learn (another topic for another day), there are really two different things at issue here: depravity and sin. Yes, we are all born guilty and sinful (as a result of being represented by Adam in the fall). But, honestly, are we all equally sinful (I am in NO way saying I or anyone else is better or worse than Haggard or anyone else)? My reaction and comments that you quoted above were to make the point that, IF we are all equally sinful, then the oversight board should NOT have removed Ted from his position, because then everyone would have to be removed their positions because everyone would be equally sinful.

I still like what Rick Phillips said over at Reformation21 (quoted in my post #116) about Christians needing to express shame over events like this.

Thanks for the forum here to discuss this with others.


132. Peter Smythe
November 7, 2006
2:00 PM

Tim, Moses murdered the Egyptian because he knew he was called. Paul states that he was called while in his mother’s womb. Consequently, your premise that they committed their sins prior to being called is in error.


133. Ben
November 7, 2006
2:00 PM

One of the most important things Christians are to do in understanding God’s will for us is to hold things in balance. In seeking to emulate Him, we ought to learn how to correctly balance both justice and mercy, love of sinner and hatred of sin, joy and sorrow, discipline and restoration.

This is especially important when we regard a situation like Ted Haggard’s. Each of us must carefully balance ourselves so that we reflect the image of God in our response.

For Mr. Haggard himself, I certainly think that his sin is deep and the healing process will be extremely hard. That said, our hope is that his repentance is sincere (in the absence of certain knowledge, I would suggest none of us knows whether it was or not. That really isn’t something we’re in a position to judge). If his repentance is sincere, we can hurt for his family, rejoice in the exposition of sin, and pray for God’s grace on him as he pursues the spiritual health that has eluded him in that area for so long.

For the church, they can value and celebrate the years of successful service Mr. Haggard has given, and can extend a loving and forgiving hand to him and his family much the way Christ did to prostitutes and tax collectors. At the same time, they have a responsibility to exercise discipline in the form of removal from office, but also encouraging the implementation of a healthy restoration process (restoration of spiritual health, not restoration to office). Redemptive discipline is one of the most important parts of church life, because it is key to modeling and balancing God’s justice (intolerance of consistent and willful sin) and God’s compassion (forgiveness for the repentant sinner).

For the rest of us, this event should inspire both introspection and consideration of how the local church ought to respond to such a circumstance. Tim’s post is a model of responding wisely, without the arrogance of assuming, “I could never fall that far.” This is no comment on our disciplinary response to sin, merely a thoughtful reaction to the implications of a recent event.

At the same time, we can think through how we live in our own church life. Have we been careful in helping the pastor set up wise accountability systems? What is the correct disciplinary response to situations of this sort, especially regarding people in different positions in the church?

Whether your situation is as small as being caught in a white lie by a co-worker, or as massive as being caught in a situation like Ted Haggard’s, our need is the same- correct discipline to communicate God’s holiness and justice, heartfelt repentence, and a wise process for restoration to spiritual health.

One quick story- I attended a Christian school in junior high. I was a teacher’s assistant for a man who was both the local church youth pastor and the bible teacher for the school. He was caught in an affair.

He repented, in a way that was clearly sincere. However, obviously mercy could not be the only response. He was removed from both positions (teacher and youth pastor). He was asked to publicly repent before the congregation.

At the same time, he was not ostracized. School and church leaders carefully explained to all the students he ministered to what had happened and how they would proceed. They helped him find a job in the area. They continued to allow his kids to have a teacher’s discount so they could keep attending the school. Every member of the church contributed to reacting in both a just and loving way.

Today, his life is very different. He likely will never be in the ministry again. However, he is has been restored as a member of that church, still lives with and is loved by the same people. His story is a marvelous example of what God can do through a church that seeks to reflect his character in dealing with a tough situation.

My hope and prayer is that Ted Haggard’s situation would be similar.


134. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 7, 2006
2:14 PM

Oh, and the overseers’ dismissal of him is not denunciation either.

Jamie,

The third possible definition of ‘denounce’, of which denunciation is the act of doing, is “to give formal announcement of the ending of”, which the oversight board did during the service where they formally and publicly announced the dismissal of Mr. Haggard.

So, however you look at it, Haggard was in fact denounced by the oversight board.


135. Mark Tubbs
November 7, 2006
2:21 PM

Re Peter’s post #132,

Oy vey! Exegeting Moses’ murder of the Egyptian as a result of his calling is assuredly a Post Hoc fallacy. By no means can we conclude that Moses’ murder was sanctioned by God or an outworking of his calling. The zeal of Phinehas (Numbers 25) is another story altogether. In Moses’ case, “in your anger do not sin” (Eph. 4:26) would surely be the operating principle, no?

Back to Tim’s regularly scheduled programming…


136. alos
November 7, 2006
2:39 PM

1 Corithians 5: 11


137. Phil Perkins
November 7, 2006
4:07 PM

This is just about as much as it is his. We let him into our organizations even though his doctrine was watered down. If we had been Bereans this man would not have been in leadership.

Phil Perkins.


138. vynette
November 7, 2006
4:54 PM

Humans must make choices of their own free will, using those reasoning powers with which they have been endowed. “Come now and let us reason together…” (Is.1:18)

Scripturally, there is no such teaching as ‘Original Sin’. Both Testaments confront us with our individual responsibility before God. We are not born in sin, we do not inherit any sort of ‘fallen’ nature.

Adam, created by God, chose Satan. So too, every person has the right to freely choose to follow Adam, who was earthy, or to follow Jesus, who was spiritual.

Spiritually re-born Christians CANNOT sin. They are renewed from within not from without.

The doctrines, the traditions, the forms, the rituals, the theological empire-building, and the mind-numbing complexities introduced by the Christian churches over the last two millennia render unintelligible the single simple dictum of the New Testament - follow the Old Man, Adam, or the New Man, the ‘last Adam.’ Our choice!

The New Testament writers enumerate principles to follow in order that Christians living many centuries later may become one with Jesus. Where John preached the gospel of love, Paul announced redemption by a inner and spiritual identification with Jesus, with a self-imposed crucifixion and resurrection.

By subordinating the will of his own flesh, and by choosing the truth of God instead of lies, and obedience to God instead of disobedience, Jesus restored man to his position as it existed in the beginning. By this ‘atonement’ he has made it possible for godly men and women to emulate him and become children of God.

Those that do not choose to do so are still sons and daughters of Adam and must carry Adam’s burden of sin and death.

As for the ‘elect’, the proposition of the New Testament is that the ‘elect’ are ‘foreknown’, not ‘foreordained’. There is a vast difference between to two positions.


139. Peter Smythe
November 7, 2006
4:57 PM

Response to Mark Tubbs: By no means can we conclude that Moses’s murder was sanctioned by God or an outworking of his calling.

I did not say that Moses’s murder or that Paul’s supervision of the stoning of Stephen was sanctioned by God and I do not know what kind of logic you used to get there.

Tim introduced the idea that Ted Haggard should never return to ministry. I merely requested a scriptural basis for that statement with those two examples in mind.


140. Mark Tubbs
November 7, 2006
5:04 PM

Peter, thanks for the clarification. I’m following you for the most part. Your comment that “Moses murdered the Egyptian because he knew he was called” is what I am accusing of a logical fallacy. But it’s a minor point in view of the larger scope of this discussion thread. Blessings on you and thanks for your gracious response.


141. Kenny Archbold
November 7, 2006
6:48 PM

Great Post . Should I thank you for remindoing me of my depravity, something we would all like very much to forget? Yes, thank you Tim. Great Post!


142. donsands
November 7, 2006
8:34 PM

I would say that he should probably not return to the pulpit for many years. That’s not to say in the future he couldn’t be restored. But he’s not Moses or Paul, they spoke to God face to face. If God would come and speak to ted face to face, then that would be different.
It’s very difficult to trust someone after they have fallen like this.

I pray that he would return to his first love, and that God would grant him a great hunger for righteousness and the kingdom of God. And that he would plunge himself into the deep things of the Word of God. Which is a good prayer for myself, and us all.


143. Russ
November 7, 2006
8:42 PM

In the midst of so much self righteousness after this horrible and tragic news, you offer a refreshing view of what the central issue is. If ANYONE says they are above this kind of sin, may God grant him/her a tiny view of their heart that they may see their need for Christ Jesus on a daily basis.


144. Joe
November 7, 2006
8:46 PM

My first impression is to say you are right. I have seen this situation a number of times over the years, but I have to say this, God is faithful to deliver us from temptation if we choose to follow His leading. Being very much the sinner that you say (and God says) we are, I cannot cast a stone at his motives. I can say, however, that Fred’s position demanded more of him than those whom God has given less responsibility, especially to pastors who tend God’s flocks. The Bible says to pluck out your eye or cut off a limb before these things cause you to sin. The consequences here are much like David’s, that the sword will never depart from his door. However much you symathize with his family, they must share this burden because that is what they are, a family. God has forgiven this, but if you sow the wind, you must reap the whirwind. I pray that this will turn his life around, IF HE LETS IT,


145. Brian at voiceofthesheep
November 7, 2006
9:34 PM

If ANYONE says they are above this kind of sin, may God grant him/her a tiny view of their heart that they may see their need for Christ Jesus on a daily basis.

Russ,

This statement is confusing to me. Are you saying that one can’t see their need for Christ on a daily basis while at the same time know themselves enough to discern that there are some things that are simply not a temptation for them?

I guess it boils down to what you mean by ‘ABOVE’ and ‘THIS KIND OF SIN’. There are most certainly some sins that I know I am not tempted by: drunkeness for one, and homosexuality for another. Am I saying that in and of myself I have the power to withstand sin? No, that is not at all what I am saying. What I AM saying is that I know myself well enough to know that there are some sins that are not tempting to me personally.

I sure hope that doesn’t mean that I can’t see my need for Christ on a daily basis…because I do.

Thanks.


146. CBX
November 8, 2006
12:46 PM

Tim,
You’re absolutely right. It’s just sad that so many people refuse to accept the fact that if it were not for the grace of God working in us we would be in the same boat with Haggard.

Mr. Smythe made some interesting claims, a few of which I would like to comment on:
First of all, in 1 John he wrote: “If we say that we have no sin (Lit. are sinners) we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us” (vs. 8). Jeremiah says: “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick, who can understand it?” -17:9 To say that a Christian is not a sinner and does not have an evil heart is totally contrary to scripture (Matt. 15:19). Paul called himself “a wretched man” and a “chief of sinners” (Rom. 7:24, 1 Tim. 1:15). Yes, we do have a new heart and yes we are new creatures IN CHRIST, but that does not mean our hearts are perfect and without sin. Because we are in Christ and because he has IMPUTED His Righteousness to us we have put off the old man and are being renewed in the spirit of our mind. It is grace all the way through and to say that we are not sinners and do not have evil hearts is sounds alot like the roman catholic doctrine of infused righteousness.
Secondly, Moses and Paul committed those acts of sin not before they were called, but rather, before they were converted. Moses met God on Mount Sinai and Paul met God on the Damascus Road, before these incidents occurred they were inclined to rebel against God’s law because they did not know God as He is. I was called from eternity past to be in Christ, but before I was actually converted I was a wicked and unholy creature of ill repute and proud of it. Now that I am in Christ and have been given a new heart with new desires, my desire is to obey and glorify God and preach His gospel. But I know that my heart is still as black as the ash of hell and only the inner workings of grace and the Holy Spirit can help me and strengthen me to resist and hate sin. It’s a paradox that we can’t wrap our mind around, we have a new heart but the Bible calls our hearts deceitful; we are born again but we still battle sin in the flesh, mind and spirit (2 Co. 7:1). However, if we are dead to sin we cannot live in it, and Ted lived in it for three years. “By their fruits you shall know them”.


147. Samuel
November 8, 2006
3:48 PM

This Scripture should give us all clarity in many ways. Let’s us all apply this text to our lives. Read it, study it, meditate on it and apply it by obeying it.

Ephesians 5:1-17

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immortality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore, do not associate with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therfore it says, Awake. O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine in you. Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therfore, do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.


148. Tim Challies
November 8, 2006
6:49 PM

Thanks to everyone who commented. At this point I am going to shut down the comments as I don’t anticipate much more useful discussion arising from it. Rarely does a topic stay on track with 148 comments!