Americans are debating the future of their nation’s health care and as they do so, they keep looking beyond their borders to the systems in place in other countries. And, very often, their attention rests on Canada. More often than not, at least today, it is conservatives focusing on Canada, telling stories of woe, describing the utter breakdown of health care. You hear of people who have been forced to mortgage their homes and travel to the United States in order to receive basic care; you hear of people forced south of the border by hospitals that have no free beds; you hear of people who are utterly unable to find even a family doctor. Believe the press and you’ll think the Canadian system is in utter disrepair.
Now I am not much of one for politics, and especially so when those politics span two nations. Neither am I an economist who can talk about how Canada’s health care system impacts the nation financially (though obviously it’s a significant burden on the taxpayer). But what I do want to say is this: the truth about Canadian Health Care is that it’s really stinkin’ good. As a nation we are hard-wired to complain and we do tend to complain about our health system as we grumble about our politicians, hockey players and donuts. But we also like to boast and when we talk to Americans, one of the things we like to boast in most is the health care system (or the beer, depending on your personality type).
And it is good (the health care, that is—I’m not qualified to comment on the beer). When I hear Glenn Beck talking about the Canadian system as if it is hand-in-hand with Cuba, well, my blood boils a little bit. Of course I have little to go on beyond personal experiences and those of friends and family. But my experience is uniformly good. If I need to see my family doctor, I can call him and get an appointment usually the same day and, if not, shortly after. If I don’t care to wait, I can go to a walk-in clinic where, depending on the day, I may be seen immediately or after a couple of hours of waiting (there are at least four of these clinics within a fifteen minute drive of my home). Hospital emergency rooms, especially in cities, tend to be a little busy, but only if you have been triaged and determined not to need immediate care. If you need a couple of stitches, you may be waiting a little while; if you have a heart attack, you’ll receive much higher priority. I have only known one person who has gone to the US for treatment and, in her case, she chose not to wait a week for a mammogram. Living within minutes of the border and wishing to free her mind from worry, it was an easy choice for her to expedite things by driving to the US. When I speak to friends and family I generally hear the same things. Sure, we might like wait times to be a little shorter here and there; elective surgeries can come with long waiting times and in some locales there are just not enough doctors to go around. But overall, I do not know of a single Canadian who would trade our system for that of our neighbors to the south. I know of many more people who travel from the US to Canada to receive health care than vice versa. In fact, I hear there is a bustling business in forging health cards so Americans can pose as Canadians and be treated as them. If the health care is that bad, why would people be crossing the border to enjoy it?
It is worth nothing that in 2004 Canadians voted for the Greatest Canadian (yes, I know it was run through the liberal CBC, but still…) and winner was Tommy Douglas, the man who engineered the whole system. Though few Canadians would share his socialist political ideology (sitting as we are under a Conservative government), fewer still have any desire to dismantle the system he created. Is it a perfect system? No way. I don’t think there is a single nation we can point at as having a perfect system. But Canada’s system has to be as good as just about any of them.
Now it must be admitted that health care falls under the domain of the individual provinces, so care will differ from province-to-province. It is likely to be better in the Greater Toronto Area where I live than it is far to the north where towns are few and far between. Is it sustainable in the long term? I don’t have an easy answer. We could probably provide endless caveats. But for the average Canadian, the health care system is entirely adequate and we really have no good reason to complain. Take the time to ask Canadians and I am sure this is what you will find. There will always been exceptions, but for the majority of Canadians the majority of the time, our health coverage is exceptional.
I do not mean this as a defense or endorsement of what President Obama is proposing in the United States. Admittedly, if I were American, I’d be highly suspicious of the plan, especially when looking to the economics of it. Instead, I write all this simply to remind you, “don’t believe everything you hear.” This is as true when the rhetoric is coming from a conservative mouthpiece as when it comes from a liberal.
(For further reading, here are just a couple of useful articles: The Truth About Canadian Healthcare and Healthcare: Public vs. Private.)
Comments (64) »
1. Liezl Vander Woude
September 21, 2009
8:11 AM
As a permanent resident without a family doctor, I have been able to get an appointment by going through an after hours clinic. I had to wait three months to see a specialist but, having heard the horror stories, I was thankful to have access. There seems to be a great need for more family doctors, not only for new residents but also for people who for various reasons “lose” their family doctor. I agree with you that the health care in Canada is good, but access seems to be an issue - especially in New Brunswick.
2. Reg Schofield
September 21, 2009
8:19 AM
Thanks Tim for a balanced view . In terms of many nations we are blessed and as Christians we should be thankful for a system that works well most of the time.
With my son developing type 1 diabetes at the age of 6 we have seen of health-care system up close and personal for a while . Then 2 years ago my wife was diagnosed with cancer and I cannot say enough about the doctors and nurses that tended to her treatment. She is doing very well , praise God .
Sure there are things that need to be changed and there at times seems to be too much of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing within doctors and hospitals, but I’m sure you could find just as many horror stories in the US ( Moore’s Sicko ) . Living in Nova Scotia we have a first class cancer care facility , excellent diabetic center . So overall I’m satisfied and I’m quite sick of the Beck’s of this world distorting and only telling half truths.
3. booklady
September 21, 2009
8:26 AM
Respectfully disagree with you on this one, Tim.
I’m a nurse, I work in the health care system, in Ontario, outside Ottawa. Wait times in Ottawa area emergency departments run into several to 24 hours, even in the smaller “country” hospitals (I work in one of those). We get people in our emergency department who have driven over an hour in hopes the wait will be less ( it usually is, sometimes only 4-5 hours). Usually, they are people who don’t have a family doctor. Wait times at walk-in clinics run into several hours as well. Our hospital sometimes has to cancel appointments for our patients in the city because our ambulances are tied up in city hospitals waiting for emergency departments to accept them. We have had patients wait several hours (with no supervision) for an ambulance to bring them back to us from an appointment.
I rarely can get in to see my doctor in less than a week for a “routine” illness kind of thing. I had a benign brain tumour a year or so ago - waited a month for a CT scan, almost 3 months for a surgery date (and even then, I only got it because I knew enough to keep calling people and bugging them till they booked me a surgery time). Granted, my tumour was benign, but there was a chance it was not, and it was affecting my ability to work anyway….I book check ups for my kids (teenagers) and myself several months in advance (they require a longer appointment time).
And, yes, I have seen people die waiting for an appointment at a cancer clinic, the Heart Institute, for a specialist.
It is not all bad - I, too, cringe when I read the news reports and blogs decrying Canadian health care - but it is nowhere near great. You are young, Tim, and probably have never faced a serious or life-threatening illness. The view from that side of things is quite different. Also, we really have little other choice in Canada, as many US pundits say. I personally am not sure if a “two-tier” system is the way to go but our current system is getting worse (I’ve been a nurse for 25 years) and will keep getting worse as our population ages, but declines at the same time. One of the problems that I see in it is the money spent on “non necessary health care” - for example, plastic surgery. A lot of that is privately paid for by patients - nonetheless, hospitals give a lot of OR time to plastic surgeons - 2-3 days per week, as opposed to 1 day a week to my neurosurgeon. Why? It brings in extra money to hospitals….
Something’s not right about that…..
4. diane
September 21, 2009
8:34 AM
THANK YOU Tim! I have been waiting for you to write about the Canadian healthcare system !!!! (I even sent you an email)… thank you for clearing up some of the myths floating around the US regarding your healthcare system. Thank you for stating both strengths and weaknesses! I agree that no system is going to be perfect. But surely we can figure something out that will provide healthcare to those who have none and, at the same time, not compromise quality care.
Now if we could just get Glen Beck to read your blog! That would be good on so many levels! :)
5. Dan
September 21, 2009
9:08 AM
I think it was well within your right to defend your system. I’d be upset if a bunch of Americans were attacking everything about your country too. I’m in the US Navy, so my health care is government and free in almost every case. And it’s good. Even with it’s pitfalls, it’s better than paying what my dad pays for insurance and then still getting saddled with a bill!
I’m glad you posted this. It’s good for Americans to learn that our very biased news programs (on both sides of the political fence) aren’t the authority.
6. ron
September 21, 2009
9:12 AM
I wonder how much much difference exists between different regions of the country? It seems I can find articles by various Canadians that have anything but Tim’s opinion. I found this story interesting.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=299282509335931
I’m not sure how Claude Castonguay fits into the scheme, but he sounds influential. Although as another Canadian friend of mine stated “He’s from Quebec! What do you expect?”
Anyway, as Tim says all systems have both their benefits and disadvantages.
7. Flora
September 21, 2009
9:31 AM
Tim’s mother asked her Canadian friends for some input to help her answer questions.Here is my response with some adjustments.
“I can only speak of our own experience. My husband had a brain-tumour in 1986. He was in hospital the day after a diagnosis and had his operation on Christmas Eve. He had excellent care at Toronto Western Hospital and has had no after-effects. We were sent a statement of what O.H.I.P covered and it was $200,000.00. We paid nothing. I get very upset when I see the Canadian lady that the Insurance lobby is using, saying on C.N.N that she would be dead if she was in Canada! Doctors misdiagnose and make mistakes but that can happen anywhere.
When our daughter almost died in Calgary , during child-birth and had to have an emergency hysterectomy, there were specialists to operate and enough blood although she lost one and a half times the volume of blood in her body. They saved her life although it was the middle of the night. The care she and the baby received was outstanding. I witnessed it all. People may have a different perspective but we live in a fallen world where nothing is perfect. I am saying that we have had many experiences and they have all been positive!
My husband has hearing loss. Our G.P sent him immediately to an Ear, Nose and Throat Specialist. He had M.R.I ‘s and Ctscans and didn’t have to wait ages. We went to Ottawa General for one of the M.R.I’s and when we got there they told us that their machine had broken down but that they had contacted the Ottawa Civic and they would fit him in. They did. They could have said that as an old man hearing loss is inevitable. There was no indication that he was treated any differently because of his age or that there is rationing of treatment.
We pick our own doctors here and the doctors make decisions about our care, not insurance companies. My husband sees a diabetic specialist regularly. He has been put on new experimental drugs. If the doctor thinks the new drug is better. O.H.I.P generally allows it although they prefer the cheaper drugs.
Yes, there seems to be shortage of Doctors but that may be because of our proximity to the U.S where Doctors can make more money in a ‘for profit’ system. We have an excellent Doctor. All our family members have doctors. I haven’t heard any complaints. Our doctor takes time to talk and practice preventative medicine, encouraging check-ups where occult foecal blood tests are done for bowel cancer etc. I have regular bone density scans. He sends us to specialists when necessary. My opthamologist detected the markers for Glaucoma. I was immediately sent to a Glaucoma specialist and given a prescription for eye drops.
We just witnessed my sister-in-law die of cancer in Prince Edward Island. The care was amazing. The Doctors and nurses came to her home for as long as possible for palliative care. When that was no longer possible, she was put in a Hospice room at the local hospital - a private room, beautifully decorated with ‘round-the-clock’ care. When she became uncomfortable, they brought in a special air-mattress. I was truly impressed.
We took two people to Emergency at our local Hospital in the last month. Neither of them had to wait more than an hour and were Xrayed immediately. It maybe different in the cities but that is our experience locally. Our local hospital is building a large addition and they are to have a ‘state of the art’ Ctscan machine. This is a town of under 10,000 people.
I know several people who have experienced health care in both the U.S and Canada and all of them would return to Canada if it were possible.Our son, who lives in the U.S has what is considered excellent insurance but his monthly cost, deductibles,co-pays and drug costs are constantly increasing and it seems to be the insurance company who decides which high blood pressure and diabetes drugs he should be put on.
I don’t know anyone who has had to cross the border to to get care. There may be some impatient people who can afford to do so. All I know is that when any of our family has had really serious problems, the care has been immediate and excellent.
I think we are a very blessed people and I thank the Lord that I am privileged to live in such a country. I’m an immigrant to Canada, as you know, so I’m not just a prejudiced Canadian!”
Flora
8. DLE
September 21, 2009
9:39 AM
Tim,
The problem with government-run health care is that it can be a cudgel against the people. Is it any surprise that just after such a system came into being in Canada that freedom of religious speech came under assault?
I look at Canada and I see freedoms of all kinds eroding at a rate much faster than what we see in the United States. I suspect that a government health care plan in the United States will magnify that erosion here (and we have already seen enough erosion in my lifetime).
Also, we should not be surprised if some day in the future if we should see a mark of the beast play out that it would be sold as part of a health care initiative. Once a people are dependent on the government for health care, how can they resist?
9. Jim Vellenga
September 21, 2009
9:40 AM
Overall my experience of the Canadian health care system has been good. Sure there have been waits at times. Having said that, there are differences depending on where one is located, the local supply of doctors, nurses, etc, and the like. I find that there are those who complain about the system, not because they did not get the treatment they needed, but because in their opinion their problem was the worst one out there and THEY should not have had to wait, just the other people whose problems were obviously less important. It is this attitude of entitlement that I dislike. The system in Canada is far from perfect, but overall it works fairly well.
10. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
9:42 AM
booklady:
Would be interesting to know how your experience compares to the quality of care offered by “public” hospitals and emergency departments in the U.S. These are the places they send people who don’t have private insurance. Or alternately, as in my city, the city’s public hospital was taken over by a not-for-profit private (Catholic) health care network but continues to provide care regardless of peoples’ ability to pay. Still, only one of the hospitals in their network (there are several in the city) offers the indigent services. I’d be curious to know how the care differs between this hospital and others in their network.
11. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
9:44 AM
DLE: Is socialized health care being used as a cudgel in Canada? If so, I haven’t heard of it.
12. DBL
September 21, 2009
9:55 AM
How do you biblically justify a government system that steals from the workers to give to the non-workers? A system of oppressive taxation that stifles charitable giving and personal responsibility?
Is it biblical for the government to excessively tax those they deem “rich” in order to provide incentive to the lazy to continue to be lazy?
Help those that need it, yes. But help them get on their feet; don’t give them a system that encourages them to stay on the ground.
I’m extremely disheartened by this blog post. You clearly don’t understand capitalism verses socialism. There is good and evil involved here. It’s too weighty a topic to be treated so flippantly. Since you don’t know what you are talking about, please stop talking politics.
You are going the way of Derek Webb and Souljourners. Shame on you.
Are you at all concerned with the wide open door President Obama’s health care bill (H.R. 3200) provides for taxpayer-funded abortions?
13. Andy
September 21, 2009
9:56 AM
“If the health care is that bad, why would people be crossing the border to enjoy it?”
Because they’re unethical, taking free advantage of a system intended for Canadian taxpayers, and paid for by Canadian taxpayers.
I think very few people are making the argument that Canadian (or British) healthcare is *terrible,* just that it’s not as good as it otherwise would be under a freer system.
14. Drew
September 21, 2009
9:57 AM
I have a unique perspective. I am Canadian by birth, but grew up in the US. All my family, but 2 siblings who naturalized here, are Canadian. My first comment is there is a basic difference in national pyschology between the countries, despite the fact that they are the most similar of any two nations in the world. I mean Canada is the closest thing to the US outside of the US. The differences can be subtle. In general, Canadians are more conformist and group identified, Americans skeptical and individualistic. All of this can be proven by historians and sociologists. One thing that Christians should keep in mind, wherever we live, is that we all have a higher allegience. Philippians 3:20 English Standard Version:
“But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,”. My word of exhortation is this: For Americans: do not make an idol of your country. For Canadians: do not be so passive as regards cultural sin in your own country. You are not morally superior as a nation.
15. Rick
September 21, 2009
10:07 AM
Here is the lie- the choice is not status quo or socialism. Government is the problem in America not the solution.
remove restriction on purchasing between state lines - REAL competition
remove mandates on coverage and let people choose the coverage that works for them
16. kelly
September 21, 2009
10:09 AM
This country was founded on give me liberty or give me death and i think giving the fed of any country the keys too your healthcare is very dangerous. The U.S. system does need some reforms but setting up a political entity too run it will eventually be the end of the game.
Oh,did I mention that our constitution never gives the power or authority for anyone in government to take over our Health or retirment plans,but who reads that anymore.
17. Drew
September 21, 2009
10:13 AM
Excellent article to add to my previous comment. http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2009/09/18/doing-unto-my-political-other-7-suggestions-for-christians-in-the-public-square/
18. Michael Batley
September 21, 2009
10:14 AM
Thanks Tim,
There can be lots of comments on both sides based on personal experience with your system. But overall it seems like it works more than it doesn’t.
What is so difficult here in the US is we’ll never really know what is the best system because the first victim of the “Health Care Reform” war was the truth. Politics is ultimately about power and winning here. Not about creating a system that serves. Really sad.
It is another sharp contrast to God’s Kingdom, where loving widow and orphans is called, “true and undefiled religion.”
19. kelly
September 21, 2009
10:27 AM
Here would be my first steps too reform the u.s. systyem:
1)Open market across state lines for all insurance and providers
2)Then maybe the biggest reform,the removal of the current tax system to a fair tax system which would put the money back in the american workers hands and allow them flexibility to buy what coverage they need.
20. Ken Davis
September 21, 2009
10:29 AM
You are absolutely right Tim. The beer here is better.
21. David Pena
September 21, 2009
10:30 AM
Thank you DLE and DBL. Dead on and very well said.
22. tired of the rhetoric
September 21, 2009
10:34 AM
Tim: The issue is not and has never been “healthcare”. It is about how that care is paid for. I am an Emergency Physician in the US and a veteran of the USAF, so I know both systems(government and private sector) well. I disagree with you and your premise. Canadians are not Americans and Americans are not Canadians. Our foundational understandings about government and the role it should play are different, to put it mildly. Americans are not prone to wanting alot of government influence in their lives, though sadly that seems to be changing. To base your understanding and comments on what your neighbors experience or even your family’s experience is with Canadian healthcare and then extrapolate that to the whole is short sighted. Cudos for sticking up for your country but with the influence you wield care should be taken with what you say and the areas you comment on. (And btw, to the gentleman who said people are transferred from private hospitals to public because they cannot pay, that is illegal and is not the way medicine is practiced in the US… at least that is what my uncle says.)
23. dac
September 21, 2009
10:35 AM
dbl
Specifically, just where does the bible “choose” the best political system?
Where does the bible say what is or is not for a government to do or to tax?
Just wondering
24. Rob
September 21, 2009
10:58 AM
Great post Tim! I’m an American now living in Quebec. Americans constantly ask me how bad the Canadian Health Care system really is.
My response is right along the lines of this post.
Are ther problems with the Canadian healthcare system? Absolutely. Are there problems with the U.S. system? Absolutely. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses.
But even with its weaknesses, the Canadian system is among the best in the world.
25. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
10:59 AM
DBL writes:
“How do you biblically justify a government system that steals from the workers to give to the non-workers?”
Define theft, then explain to me how funding a program using revenue from taxes that were enacted by duly elected representatives constitutes theft.
“You clearly don’t understand capitalism verses socialism.”
Or he does, and just disagrees with you?
26. Alex Costa
September 21, 2009
11:04 AM
You should put this in your next “A la Carte”
27. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
11:11 AM
#22 writes:
“To base your understanding and comments on what your neighbors experience or even your family’s experience is with Canadian healthcare and then extrapolate that to the whole is short sighted.”
I agree, if Tim were trying to make some sort of statistical statement about the quality of care in Canada. His point, I think, is that the image of Canadian health care being promulgated by conservative politicians and talking heads in the U.S. is diametrically opposed to Tim’s experience and the experiences of virtually everyone he knows. While that isn’t “proof” that this characterization of Canadian health care is inaccurate, it certainly suggests that it might be the case. Clearly opponents of socialized medicine in the U.S. have a vested interest in demonizing Canada’s system. Do we think Tim has some sort of vested interest in defending it? I don’t.
“And btw, to the gentleman who said people are transferred from private hospitals to public because they cannot pay, that is illegal and is not the way medicine is practiced in the US… at least that is what my uncle says.”
If this is in reference to what I said, I didn’t mean to suggest that people are actually transferred out of hospitals. From what I understand, it’s more like the ambulance picks you up, and if someone is around to answer they ask if you have insurance. If you do, then you get to pick where you’re taken. If you don’t, then they take you to the county hospital. Though, I admit I don’t have any direct experience with this, so I’m open to being corrected if anyone is an EMT and can shed some light.
28. ChrisB
September 21, 2009
11:21 AM
Tim,
I’m glad your experience with the Canadian health service has been good. And I’m sorry many Canadians (and Brits) feel like their country is being attacked when your health care systems have been sucked into our debate.
But surely you know that your experience is not universal. No system is perfect, but yours has systemic problems just as dangerous as ours, if different.
I think the best metaphor for nationalized health care is the public school system:
If you happen to live in a good area, you’ve got great care. If you don’t, you’re screwed, and you’re only choice is to move or pay for private care.
As some have noted above, government health care (whether it’s Canadian or US) is great as long as you’re basically healthy.
29. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
11:23 AM
It’s also worth noting that, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then the Canadian system’s per capita cost is approximately 50% of U.S. per capita expenditures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_compared#Canadian_health_care_in_comparison
30. DLE
September 21, 2009
11:23 AM
JPH (et al.), the will of the people is broken when everything is given them. You cannot fight tyranny when you hand over the care of your body to the government. Once such a system is in place, it is never undone unless the nation falls. And that’s what usually happens (though by then, it’s barbarism).
I am a freelance writer/editor. I carry a personal policy for my family. In just two years, my monthly premium went from $425/mo. to $927. My deductible went up 20%. My co-pays doubled. Health care costs are eating me alive.
But I do not want government health care. It’s how a government can manipulate people and erase freedoms.
What we need in the United States:
1. Tear down the ridiculous state-based system erected by the insurance industry in cahoots with state lobbyists. Allow free market, national competition for insurance rates.
2. Cap medical malpractice payouts.
3. Rather than relying on laymen to sit as juries in medical lawsuits, sit trained medical professionals who understand the ins and outs of the system and will not make awards simply because a claimant cries a lot. Charge both sides for the cost of sitting this specialized jury (which should cut down on costly, yet spurious, lawsuits brought by ambulance-chasing lawyers).
4. Require two physicians to verify the claimant’s injuries in medical malpractice cases and provide ample proof of injuries, including x-ray, MRI, CAT and other scans.
5. Work with drug companies to extend patent lengths, with the understanding that prices on medications sold in the U.S. must not exceed the prices set in non-U.S. markets.
6. If the government HAS to be involved, I would rather see it work with the AMA to setup a malpractice insurance pool for doctors that would be able to lower their rates because of volume. The AMA could certify a physician based in his or her track record, a grading system that would weed out the worst doctors, lower their need for ridiculously high medical malpractice insurance, and give doctors an AMA grade that would allow patients to be better informed. All this would drive down costs.
Doctors today order batteries of expensive tests that are unnecessary in most cases because they are afraid of lawsuits. That must be addressed. Lawyers in the U.S. bear most of the blame for ridiculous health care costs. And the insurance companies, who often dictate to doctors how many staff they must employ before they can join a particular insurance plan, bear the rest. (The best doctor I had, who was trained in Switzerland, was forced out of the profession by insurance companies. They told him he did not see enough patients in a day—as the Swiss method takes a longer, holistic view of health that factors in the mind-body connection in diagnostics—and that his one receptionist did not meet standards for staffing. So he quit retired rather than put up with that micromanagement by insurance companies. He had no choice—if he couldn’t meet those rules, he couldn’t get into a network, and his patients would go elsewhere. Amazing doctor, but now out of the profession because of bureaucrats at insurance companies.)
31. ChrisB
September 21, 2009
11:27 AM
Oh, why do American’s get forged health cards to go to Canada? IT’S FREE.
32. ChipW
September 21, 2009
11:35 AM
Proverbs 22:7 7 The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
The US doesn’t have the money to pay for it - they shouldn’t be doing it.
33. DLE
September 21, 2009
11:35 AM
Let’s also be perfectly blunt: The Church used to be the caregivers. But when the Church stopped tending to the sick, the system got out of whack. We bear part of the blame for the mess we find ourselves in.
Also, socialism and capitalism are equally bad when run by people who have no fear of God. Sadly, this is what we see today.
And as for socialism, let’s go back to the early Church. The first thing the Church did upon its formation and the filling of the Holy Spirit was to ensure that no one in the Body of Christ lacked for anything. People sold their excess to make certain no one lacked. No one counted anything as his own and all things were held in common. To drive home the point, God saw fit that this system was discussed in both Acts 2 and 4.
Do we live like that? No we don’t. Again, this is our problem, our disobedience. We like our stuff and we don’t want anyone else to have it. But that’s greed, not the Kingdom of God. Freely we have received, but stingily we give. And God is judging us now for our miserliness.
A few Christian health care organizations pool money from members to redistribute to those who have a health care need. That’s as close as we get to what I discussed a paragraph above. That’s how the Church should work. That we don’t is to our shame. Again, we Christians tended to the sick, but when we got tired and lazy and decided not to do it any longer, governments and business rushed in to fill the void.
But you’ll never hear THAT call for repentance coming from today’s pulpits.
34. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
11:45 AM
DLE writes:
“the will of the people is broken when everything is given them. You cannot fight tyranny when you hand over the care of your body to the government.”
If this health care reform passes then it is sort of by definition the “will of the people”, since it was these people who elected the representatives who passed the legislation. If it is in fact not the will of the people, then the U.S. system of representative democracy is inherently flawed in that it permitted this legislation to pass.
“But I do not want government health care. It’s how a government can manipulate people and erase freedoms.”
Eh. If you’re wealthy enough to carry private insurance now, then most likely govt. funded health care isn’t a big enough “stick” to coerce you, since you can always get your procedures done elsewhere. I feel like this is a non-issue. When I look at other countries with socialized medicine, I don’t see it being used for coercion.
“1. Tear down the ridiculous state-based system erected by the insurance industry in cahoots with state lobbyists.”
I’d be game for this. I’d actually add: pass regulations that prevent insurance companies from offering discounted “group rate” insurance to employers, and remove the tax writeoff for employers who provide health insurance to their employees. This would have the net effect of destroying employer-provided health insurance and force everyone to buy their health insurance individually.
“2. Cap medical malpractice payouts.”
This is a red herring. Malpractice payouts and legal fees amount to something like 0.5% of medical expenses in this country. Even if you include unnecessary “defensive medicine” you’re looking at something in the ballpark of 10%, and that’s if you listen to the folks who are touting this as the main factor in how expensive U.S. health care is. This 10% cannot explain the vast difference in per capita cost between the U.S. and other first-world countries.
“3. Rather than relying on laymen to sit as juries in medical lawsuits, sit trained medical professionals”
Seriously? For the purposes of seeing justice done, you feel like its a good idea to you to let a panel of doctors decide medical malpractice suits? Don’t think they’d be just a little bit biased in favor of the defendant? Do you think such a jury would qualify as “impartial” with respect to the 6th amendment?
“5. Work with drug companies to extend patent lengths, with the understanding that prices on medications sold in the U.S. must not exceed the prices set in non-U.S. markets.”
IMO this would shut U.S. drug companies out of third-world markets entirely, and pretty much screw them. The path to greatest profit would most likely be to stop selling in markets that can’t sustain the price they can get in the U.S. Less revenue means they need to have an even higher profit margin in order to offset the massive R&D expenses, meaning U.S. consumers would end up paying more.
35. Everyday Mommy
September 21, 2009
11:52 AM
“…as we grumble about our politicians, hockey players and donuts.”
Sorry about the donuts, Tim. Do you have to head south of the border for decent donuts? Do you have to wait 3-4 months for a good kruller?
36. David Kjos
September 21, 2009
11:53 AM
My comment was deleted…hopefully not censored by Tim. I ask again, given this is “A Reformed, Christian Blog”, what does this have to do with (a) the Reformation and (b) Christ?
Not by Tim, by me.
If Tim chooses to discuss a topic on his blog, that’s his business. If you want to join the discussion, please do. Otherwise, you have nothing to contribute.
37. Lori M
September 21, 2009
12:01 PM
Thank you very much, Tim. Having experienced health care here in Ontario and in Puerto Rico and knowing about our dear American daughter-in-law’s years-long battle to get her insurance company to pay what they agreed to pay after an accident, I am personally very thankful to God for our health care system. Reading the blog of a young nurse who works on the Africa Mercy ship helps me to remember how very blessed we are here in Canada compared to much of the rest of the world. Thank you for saying so.
On another Christian blog I earned the ire of some Americans who took my remarks as an endorsement of Obama’s proposed system, even though I expressly said that they weren’t. More than that, they seemed to be personally offended by my thankfulness. So don’t be surprised if you get emotional reactions here.
38. ron
September 21, 2009
1:06 PM
DLE, post #33 is right on. We have become engrossed in the government not to just provide a grid of rules (which in America is what it should be more or less limited to, but expect them to provide services that it was never designed for.
I’m glad Tim is more or less happy with Canadian health care, but it really does speak of how people see (or don’t see) government. If the church was functioning correctly in caring for each other and we talked openly about it, Christians wouldn’t need to think, or for some, be indifferent about having the government provide these services.
39. Allen
September 21, 2009
1:08 PM
I think Everyday Mommy has hit on the key issue here…a good doughnut can be hard to find.
40. Bill Weber
September 21, 2009
1:23 PM
Obama is a socialist, Tim. The United States is not yet a socialist country. If we became a socialist country we would have to break faith with our founding document, the U. S. constitution. So I have to tell you that as an American I don’t like you helping a man who is sworn to defending the constitution, but is doing just the opposite. “When the foundations are being destroyed, what can the righteous do ?” the psalmist asks. This is our situation in the U. S. and it is not helpful when you give aid to those who are destroying those foundations!
41. rebecca
September 21, 2009
1:44 PM
I came from the US to live in Canada. I’m quite satisfied with the Canadian health care system. It has always worked very well for us. When my husband was diagnosed with cancer 8 years ago , he got cutting-edge chemo treatment within 1 week of diagnosis. And immediately there were home health care workers that came to support me in his home care and house calls from our doctor, all without ever filling out a piece of paper or even seeing one. It was just all taken care for us of before we could even ask.
I know that some people have had problems, but we didn’t experience any, and people are going to run into problems in any systerm. I’ll go one more step and say that I think you’re going to have “horror stories” in any system. I’d take the Canadian health care system over the US one, and I do have experience with the American one. (Which, BTW, I think is also pretty good, and I’d be skeptical of the changes being proposed if I were living there.)
I’m glad you wrote something on this, Tim.
42. Paula
September 21, 2009
2:01 PM
If it is in fact not the will of the people, then the U.S. system of representative democracy is inherently flawed in that it permitted this legislation to pass.
Unfortunately, what we’ve allowed to evolve is a system wherein huge numbers of constituents pay NO taxes. Many of these non-tax payers continue to vote in the big spenders because they are promised more and more freebies from the government.
During 2006, Tax Foundation economists estimate that roughly 43.4 million tax returns, representing 91 million individuals, will face a zero or negative tax liability. That’s out of a total of 136 million federal tax returns that will be filed. Adding to this figure the 15 million households and individuals who file no tax return at all, roughly 121 million Americans—or 41 percent of the U.S. population—will be completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006.1 This total includes those who pay no tax, and those who pay some tax upfront and are later refunded the full amount of the tax paid or more. [emphasis mine]
Ultimately, if this thing passes, it’s going to be, in large part, the will of NON-tax paying people.
43. Flora
September 21, 2009
2:05 PM
Bill Weber (40),
Tim is not trying to aid Obama. He and others have made that quite clear. I for one am very thankful that he is trying to be fair and refute some of the lies and myths that we hear on American Television about Canadian Healthcare.
Who funds your military,police, firemen, libraries and schools in the U.S.? Is that not socialism? Personally I think many of you are being brain-washed by the insurance companies. I wasn’t in Canada when universal health-care became a reality but have been informed by some elderly Canadians that there was the same kind of hysteria and demonising of the British system and that it was fueled by the insurance companies.
44. Nathan
September 21, 2009
2:07 PM
I want to see an apples-to-apples comparison of SYSTEM-WIDE statistics of major health care options instead of anecdotal evidence. I don’t care how many Americans or Canadians are happy with their current health care situation. I want to see efficacy-versus-cost statistics.
45. Sarah
September 21, 2009
2:11 PM
I am honestly need more information on the topic. At our church in KY, our last church planting interns were Canadians but a month ago they had to return to Canada. They have three children, and have not described the health care system in Canada with high regards. They have described waiting 3 weeks to be able to see the family doctor for a sick child…as a regular thing. Does quality/wait time for the health care in Canada depend on where you live there? Thank you for your insight.
46. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
2:14 PM
Bill writes:
“Obama is a socialist, Tim.”
There’s socialism and then there’s socialism. Obama’s platform makes him squarely more socialist than Republicans, to be sure, and probably about middle-of-the-road for Democrats. Compared to the standard used in other Western countries, though, Obama’s downright capitalist.
“The United States is not yet a socialist country.”
Seriously? Check out the wiki link I posted. The U.S. govt. spends a higher percentage of total tax revenue on health care than does the govt. of Canada.
“If we became a socialist country we would have to break faith with our founding document, the U. S. constitution.”
This has already happened. The current incarnation of the U.S. federal govt. is so far out of whack with what was envisioned in the Constitution that it’s hard to imagine how folks continue to defend this or that as being “Constitutional”. And this has been the case for the last hundred years or more. That said, the American public is fine with this. “We”, as a group, have, over time, basically decided to reject the Constitution’s version of what the federal govt. should be.
47. Paula
September 21, 2009
2:15 PM
DLE said, “And as for socialism, let’s go back to the early Church. The first thing the Church did upon its formation and the filling of the Holy Spirit was to ensure that no one in the Body of Christ lacked for anything. People sold their excess to make certain no one lacked. No one counted anything as his own and all things were held in common. To drive home the point, God saw fit that this system was discussed in both Acts 2 and 4.Do we live like that? No we don’t. Again, this is our problem, our disobedience. We like our stuff and we don’t want anyone else to have it. But that’s greed, not the Kingdom of God. Freely we have received, but stingily we give. And God is judging us now for our miserliness. “
You note that these things were done so that “no one in the Body of Christ lacked anything.” How do we make the jump from Christians willingly, sacrificially, even joyfully giving of their own accord where they saw needs in the Body of Christ, to the Body of Christ deciding that ROME should be given all the money so that ROME can be compassionate, loving and merciful to all people?
48. Nathan
September 21, 2009
2:22 PM
One more thing:
.
Forcing an insurance company to accept pre-existing conditions is a DUMB IDEA — read on if you want to know why…
.
If a health insurance company is forced to accept me regardless of pre-existing conditions, I could save a bunch of money and not pay for insurance until something major comes up. The analogous situation on the auto insurance side is that people would only buy insurance after they had an auto accident. What company could exist under that scenario unless the price of the insurance was set equal to the coverage amount? Accepting pre-existing conditions is like buying a pig in a poke. See the Insurance Example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiselection
49. d
September 21, 2009
2:23 PM
Thanks for the encouragement. My American sis-in-law married a Canadian and lives in Ontario. I don’t think she’d agree with your assessment, but it’s so good to remember that we are truly blessed to receive any form of healthcare. How can we complain?
50. David Kjos
September 21, 2009
2:40 PM
David Kjos, I appreciate you telling me that I have nothing to contribute.
I didn’t say that you have nothing to contribute. I invited you to join the discussion rather than simply declare it illegitimate. If that doesn’t interest you, then you have nothing to contribute.
Now let it go at that.
51. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
2:48 PM
Flora #43:
“Who funds your military,police, firemen, libraries and schools in the U.S.?”
The sticking point is that the U.S. constitution specifically outlines the maintenance of a military as the “job” of the federal govt. It also says that all rights & duties not specifically assigned to the federal government are reserved to the states. So, when people complain about the fed. spending money on education (or health care, or a myriad of other things) being “unconstitutional”, they’re not just blowing smoke. On the other hand, I’d maintain that the vast majority of Americans do not want a federal govt. that fits the constitutional model part and parcel.
Nathan #44:
It’s kind of a hard comparison to make. What would the metric be? Various studies have compared cancer mortality rates, and another looked at mortality rates for people with heart disease. The cancer numbers were mixed. Apparently some types of cancer are “better” treated in Canada, and some in the U.S. Heart attack suffers were slightly better off in the U.S. due to a willingness to pursue more aggressive and invasive (read: expensive) procedures. The differences weren’t huge, though, and you have to remember that the U.S. per capita cost is approximately 2X what Canadians pay.
Two (rough) measures of “overall health” one can look at are life expectancy and infant mortality rate, but these vary by ethnicity, and the U.S. and Canada have different demographic makeups in that regard. I was able to find numbers for the U.S. broken out by ethnicity, but not for Canada, so I’m not able to make a comparison while holding ethnicity constant. However, if you look at the numbers for the overall population, then Canada beats the U.S. on both accounts. This while spending half as much.
52. donsands
September 21, 2009
2:50 PM
“don’t believe everything you hear.”
Amen to that. From both sides of the aisle we need to have discernment.
Appreciate the post. Gracias me hermano.
53. Rooster
September 21, 2009
2:58 PM
Wait times for walk-in clinics arnt that bad. In Ottawa there is even a chain of them with their times posted online so that you can go to the one with the least people at it. That being said we need more doctors and lab techs. I waited a month and a bit for an ultrasound. The Canadian System could be improved, privitised customer care is probably alot better then the ‘no response is a good response’ system we are currently using for test results, but I wouldnt trade it for the American system of having to worry about how close the nearest county hospital is or whether or not I have room in my credit for a procedure or test.
54. Lori M
September 21, 2009
3:24 PM
Sarah, (45), you asked, “They have described waiting 3 weeks to be able to see the family doctor for a sick child…as a regular thing. Does quality/wait time for the health care in Canada depend on where you live there?” Quite likely it does. Here in Ontario, my grandchildren’s doctors fit them into that day’s schedule if their parents think it’s warranted, but they could also take them to a walk-in clinic or to a hospital’s emergency room.
55. Renee
September 21, 2009
4:30 PM
Every country has its pros and cons. Speaking of health benefits, what I find appalling in America is that dairy farmers are allowed to inject their cows with a bovine growth hormone to increase milk production…at its peoples’ detriment. Canada, thank someone, does not allow this practice.
56. J.P.H.
September 21, 2009
4:33 PM
John #56:
While I probably agree with you that Canadians are healthier as a whole, I still maintain that much of the discrepancy comes down to demographics. Mostly ethnicity (which is a just proxy for genetic differences) and socioeconomic status. The non-Western European contingent in the U.S. is disproportionately black and hispanic, compared to Canada, and the Canadian non-Western European contingent is disproportionately aboriginal and East Asian compared to the U.S. Also, it is almost surely the case that, compared to Canada, the U.S. has a larger indigent population.
That’s why I was trying (in vain) to find stats on life expectancy and infant morality in Canada broken out by ethnicity. Would give more of an apples to apples comparison.
My guess is that health indicators for “upper middle class whites” in the U.S. are comparable or superior to indicators for the same class in Canada, but unfortunately I can’t back that up. Clearly those who are poor or lack private insurance are better served by a Candian-style system.
57. Randy
September 21, 2009
5:12 PM
I’m a Canadian living in the U.S., and my Western Canada experience does not mirror Tim’s. Relatives in Canada with cancer having to wait months for surgery is a common theme. My brother has a bladder tumor right now that his doctor fears is cancerous, but they won’t even have a chance to operate for another month so it could be spreading right now. That doesn’t please me.
58. Steven Ibbotson
September 21, 2009
5:38 PM
I agree with Tim that although our Canadian health care system certainly is not perfect, it has always been a huge blessing to me, my family, and many other friends and acquaintances. I cannot thank God enough that I live in a country with such an exceptional health care system where I have received excellent and professional care. The reason the “horror” stories are deemd so “newsworthy” is they are the exception.
59. David Kjos
September 21, 2009
5:49 PM
I see my last post has been deleted. Guess it hit home.
Nope. You flatter yourself. Scolding people for ignoring your comments is unlikely to “hit home.”
60. Dan
September 21, 2009
8:56 PM
Heated issue, huh?
61. Todd Shaffer
September 21, 2009
8:56 PM
My wife and I have been in Quebec for 9 years now, coming from the States. We have 4 kids. It took us 8 years to find a pediatrician for our kids, and 2 years to find a family doctor for my wife and I. The pediatrician works two days a week, and appointments are booked 3 to 6 months in advance. We see the ER at Children’s hospital more than we see their pediatrician—and we only go there if we absolutely must because we almost always bring a bug back. The ER is used to this kind of thing because we’re not alone.
Walk in clinics are around, though not enough to accommodate people. Try sitting in a crowded waiting room ill or in pain for 8 hours.
Most of our friends who have children have the same problems with health care we do. We’re far from unique. The doctors and nurses we know also think the Quebec health care system is terrible. Will you be seen? Eventually. I guess you could call that “health care.”
The percentage of my tax that goes to health care is about $22K per year (out of my 48% income tax—that also comes with socialized health care if you make more than $70K per year) I would pay far less in the US for superior health care for my whole family.
If the system works for you, then good for you. But then it needs to work for everyone, and however you slice it, it is a far cry from that. Give me a lousy American HMO over Canadian health care any day. I’ve lived both, and there’s no comparison.
62. Ken
September 21, 2009
10:18 PM
Thanks for this Tim. I think some people are forgetting that this wasn’t an endorsement of Obama’s plan…it was to refute many of the lies and exaggerations we’ve been hearing about the Canadian system. I too, have had nothing but excellent care in Canada (I’m originally from Saskatchewan). When my mom was diagnosed with a tumour in her heart, she was in for surgery in three days. In my 20’s I spent nearly three months in the hospital and received very good care. And at no cost to my family.
As a missionary in a third world country, it saddens me to see so many people suffer and die from what are preventable illnesses. I’m in no way comparing that to the US system, but I do appreciate that this would not happen in Canada. Any one of those people could walk into the nearest hospital and receive quality care.
Again, thanks for writing this Tim. It’s good to have different voices and thoughts presented.
63. Jon
September 21, 2009
10:32 PM
It’s good to hear that Canada’s healthcare isn’t a complete wreck. I’ve never been convinced that it’s all bad. One thing that may be benefiting is to have a family doctor. If you don’t, I’ve heard that it’s far more painful to get immediate medical care.
I pay for my own insurance and it goes up every birthday. I’m single and I can’t fathom what it would cost to insure myself as well as a wife and children. There definitely needs to be reform in America, but I don’t trust any of Obama’s solutions. They may come up with something that works for a time, but I’d hope they could come up with a solution that won’t blowup in my lifetime.
Tim mentioned Glenn Beck and I must say that when I do watch him (which isn’t often) he’s far to sensational about his presentations of the evils of universal health care. We need to take all politicians with a grain of salt.
I hope we can come up with a system that works for the majority of Americans, but I’m still thankful for what we do have, even if it can be expensive.
64. Marie
September 21, 2009
10:48 PM
I don’t think capitalism is based on greed. I think it’s based on personal responsibility. I think that is biblical.
I like to be responsible for my own health care. I don’t think it is right to force others to pay for it. Particularly if I like taking risks. Sinful risks, like homosexual behavior or drug abuse. Or non-sinful, like eating butter or flying frequently.
I am all for people VOLUNTARILY helping with health care, and i believe charity is very Christ honoring. But forced taxation is not charity.
When others are forced to pay for my health care, they rightly have an interest in my behavior and choices. We find that we have to wear helmets, smoke absolutely nowhere, drive cars that make more and more extreme design changes to “safety,” abstain from an ever increasing list of behaviors - and eventually the trend is to discourage things like experimental cancer treatments, high risk pregnancies, life lengthening efforts for the elderly…because why should everyone in the country HAVE to pay for that?
Also, if there is no money to be made in medicine, the extraordinary progress made in medicine in the past century can’t continue. For investors and geniuses to devote the time and energy to developing new drugs, techniques, and therapies, there needs to be a financial reward.
Lastly, the whole abortion atrocity gets so firmly entrenched it seems as though there is no hope. It is cheaper to pay for birth control, abortifacient birth control, and early term abortions than to pay for prenatal, labor, delivery, postpartum, and for that matter lifetime medical care for the new child.
All taxpayers are forced to pay for the abortions, as well as the euthanasia. In the U.S., I can choose health coverage that does not pay for these “services.”