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Monday January 12, 2004

Book Review - Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life

Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life is a runaway bestseller, having already sold over ten million copies, making it one of the best-selling Christian books of all time. Thousands of churches have committed to leading their congregations through the Forty Days of Purpose program. I decided to spend forty days journaling my way through this book to try to determine what they hype is all about.

The Purpose Driven Life proclaims itself to be “more than a book; it is a guide to a 40-day spiritual journey that will enable you to discover the answer to life’s most important question: What on earth am I here for?” We see that the author is setting his sights high; he is going to attempt to answer the greatest question we can face – that of our meaning and purpose. He promises that at the end of the journey “you will know God’s purpose for your life and will understand the big picture – how all the pieces of your life fit together.” The results of this will be amazing. “Having this perspective will reduce your stress, simplify your decisions, increase your satisfaction, and, most important, prepare you for eternity.” It is a courageous man who would write a book that claims it will do all of that. Of course these lofty standards help us realize why this book has attracted such great attention!

The format of the book is simple. The book is divided into six parts: an introduction followed by a section for each of the five purposes Rick Warren has discovered. Each day’s reading is only a few pages long and is followed by a verse of the Bible to memorize, a point to ponder and a question to consider. The book is packed with over 1200 quotations from the Bible.

There are many positive aspects to this book. The author obviously loves the church and views the local church as a beautiful institution. He speaks of the value and necessity of Christian community that can only be gained through the local church. He is firm on this point, stating that there is no such thing as a lone Christian. He has many good things to say about worship and how so many people view worship as being about themselves rather than being an outpouring of praise and obedience towards God. He speaks of the value of identifying and utilizing our spiritual gifts.

I believe Rick Warren is a godly man who truly wants to reach the world for Christ. In interviews I have read I can see that he certainly has an understanding of the Reformed tradition and has affirmed his belief in the “five solas” of the Reformation. When with Reformed people he certainly can talk the talk, so to speak. Though I do not doubt his faith or his intentions, I find that the book itself deviates from Reformed doctrine on many points.

There are literally hundreds of reviews of this book that focus on the positive attributes of the book. Many of them are written very well and there is little I can add to them. For that reason I am going to focus on some of the concerns I have with this book.

Problems in the Introduction

As I pointed out, this book makes great promises. Though there is nothing wrong with setting high standards, what is the measure of these standards? It seems that all of these standards are based on experience. There is nothing here about having a closer walk with God. As a matter of fact, there is little promised that would not be found in a secular book about finding purpose. Experience will be the ultimate measure of whether this book has succeeded. It does not promise to change the heart or mind.

One of the primary goals of the Christian life is to learn more about God and how He wants us to live. We are then to become more and more conformed to His will. This book has little to say about this process we know as sanctification.

The book is based on a false premise that there is supernatural value to a 40-day study. The author says that “whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes he took 40 days.” This is simply not true. Though the 40 day time period is used quite often in Scripture, we should not be superstitious about it. There are many examples of God taking different amounts of time to prepare people. Having to force the book to a length of forty days leads to a lot of repetition, especially in the last four or five chapters.

Thesis

Page 25 seems to summarize the thesis of the book. It says “We discover that meaning and purpose only when we make God the reference point of our lives.” This seems to say that if the reader finds God he will also find himself and his purpose. This is not the gospel!

Multiple translations

Rick Warren quotes the Bible over 1,200 times in the text of The Purpose Driven Life. To do so, he uses fifteen different translations and paraphrases. Appendix 3 contains his rationale for this and he provides two reasons for the number of translations. The first is that in any single translation “nuances and shades of meaning can be missed, so it is always helpful to compare translations.” The second is “the fact that we often miss the full impact of familiar Bible verses, not because of poor translating, but simply because they have become so familiar.” (author’s emphases) He believes this will “help you see God’s truth in new, fresh ways.” (author’s emphasis)

The author’s logic is faulty as the two reasons he provides contradict each other. If a translation introduces something in a new and fresh way it will necessarily introduce new nuances and shades of meaning. The way to remove nuances and shades of meaning is to use as literal a translation as possible so that the words are God’s alone and are not interpreted by the translator. The author can then exposit the text, clarifying what might require clarification. This is nothing more than the traditional means of teaching what the Bible says.

As for verses losing their full impact, this may happen to some Christians, but rather than use poor Scripture translations, the author should help the reader focus on the fact that as a Christian he should love the Bible. As with David, God’s Law is to be our delight day and night and not something we grow tired of.

There is a serious impact to Warren’s use of so many translations. It shows his view of the inspiration and sufficiency of Scripture. It seems that he does not believe that the Bible as God wrote it is sufficient for people today. He must believe that a very loose paraphrase like The Message can impact people in a way that the real translations cannot. He shows that he is not a faithful expositor of the Bible.

Audience

The author aims this book at two distinct audiences – believers and unbelievers. He shows that he is, initially at least, writing for unbelievers by inviting them to pray a short prayer, asking them to say “Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you.” He then welcomes them to the family of God. I fear, though, that he uses too many Christian terms and phrases to really connect with unbelievers. Similarly, if he is hoping to reach new Christians, I think the same holds true – the “Christianese” terms and many of the Biblical references may alienate them. On the other hand, if he is hoping to reach mature Christians, much of the book will be too simplistic for them.

We know from the Bible that there is a vast difference between believers and unbelievers. Those who have come to a saving knowledge of Christ have had their very natures changed. They have become adopted children of God and have become heirs to His promises. They have special privileges and they have knowledge and faith that unbelievers do not. This is not to say that a book can or should not be written that attempts to reach both audiences. What it does mean is that an author must be sure to distinguish between audiences, being careful not to mislead either audience.

Warren often fails to differentiate between audiences. For example, in the second chapter he quotes Ephesians 1:4 which reads “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” The context of this verse shows that the author is referring to only Christians, yet Warren makes no distinction.

The Gospel

The author does not at any time provide a clear explanation of the gospel message. On page 58 he says, “Real life begins by committing yourself completely to Jesus Christ” but never comes closer than that. He never writes about such crucial doctrines as man’s sinfulness and need for a Savior or the work of Jesus. He never mentions the importance Christ’s life, the cross or the empty tomb. Yet on page 58 we find him leading the prayer of “Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you” and then saying “Welcome to the family of God!” How can a person become a Christian without any understanding of his own sinfulness or of Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf?

The author paints God’s relationship with humans as being nothing but love. On page 294 he says “God has never made a person he didn’t love.” Yet we know that God expressed hatred towards Esau and Pharaoh. It seems that the author would have no explanation for such displays of hatred.

Warren’s gospel seems to be one of purpose. He teaches that man’s greatest problem is purposelessness and this book will remedy that situation by helping the reader discover his purpose. Needless to say, this is not the gospel as taught by the Bible. The Bible teaches that man’s greatest problem is that he is a sinner and is alienated from God. Purposelessness is insignificant compared to the possibility of an eternity in hell.

Life Application

The aim studying the Bible is application. We are to study the Bible so we can apply what we learn to our lives, with the ultimate aim of conforming ourselves to the image of Christ. Application, though, depends on proper teaching and sound knowledge. It stands to reason that a person cannot apply to his life something he does not understand. Teaching stands as the foundation that application is built upon.

Since Warren does not explain the gospel and the real means of salvation, how can people truly apply what he teaches? If everything is application, what do they really believe in?

Purpose

The Purpose Driven Life is premised on the teaching that only Christians can live with purpose. It follows, then, that unbelievers have no real purpose to their lives. Yet the Bible teaches that they do! Proverbs 16:4 says “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Unbelievers do have a purpose, though it is not the same as the purpose God has for those who believe in Him. Interestingly, in chapter seven the author quotes this passage but omits the second half of the verse.

Bible Use

We have already seen how the author has used multiple translations as well as his justification for doing so. Of even greater concern is his carelessness in his use of the Bible. He continually removes Scripture passages from their proper context in order to make them suit his purposes. He carelessly applies promises to the reader that clearly do not apply. He also distorts or changes the meanings of certain passages to make them say what he wants them to say.

First we will examine promises Warren says apply to all Christians. One clear example of this is Jeremiah 29:11 which he uses multiple times in the book. On page 31 we read “Wonderful changes are going to happen in your life as you begin to live it on purpose. God says “I know what I am planning for you…’I have good plans for you, not plans to hurt you. I will give you hope and a good future’.” When read in context we see that this verse is not written to apply to all Christians. It is a promise given specifically to the Israelite exiles. By Warren’s logic Jeremiah 44:27 should also apply to all Christians. It reads, “I am watching over them for harm and not for good, and all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt will meet their end by the word and by famine until they are completely gone.” A pastor once told me “that verse wouldn’t sell as many plaques at the Christian book stores.”

A second example is Isaiah 44:2. This is used in the heading of the second chapter and is rendered “I am your Creator. You were in my care even before you were born.” The author chooses to quote only the first part of the verse. The second part, we see, goes directly against what he wants to say. It reads “Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.” When viewed in the proper context we see that this verse applies only to a specific group (which is, once again, the Israelites).

There are some passages where Warren uses the Bible extremely carelessly. The clearest example of this is in chapter 10 where he discusses the blessing of surrendering to God. As support he quotes Job 22:21 as saying “Stop quarreling with God. If you agree with him, you will have peace at last, and things will go well for you.” When we look at the larger context of this passage we see that these are the words of Eliphaz, one of Job’s infamous friends. We see that Eliphaz is giving Job poor advice which God later condemns. Warren knows better than this!

Thomas Jefferson once said “The moment a person forms a theory his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory.” The author seems to fall into a trap where he sees teachings about purpose in parts of the Bible that simply are not about purpose. For example, on page 30 he talks about the hopelessness of a life lived without purpose. In discussing this under the heading of “the benefits of purpose-driven living” he quotes the book of Job where Job says “My life drags by – day after hopeless day.” Of course familiarity with the book of Job will show that to say Job was bemoaning lack of purpose is ridiculous. A man who has had everything he owned and everyone he loved taken from him and is covered in sores is not likely to be upset by a lack of purpose in his life. In the same chapter the author quotes Genesis 4:12 which says of Cain “You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.” Again, this is made to sound like it has something to do with purpose. And again, this is a ridiculous assertion.

There are at least fifty similar examples where the author uses Scripture outside of its context or assigns a foreign meaning. When Scripture is not used in the way God intends, this sort of inconsistency is inevitable.

Sources cited

The author quotes a number of sources other than the Bible. Many of these are quoted as if they are authorities on an area of the Christian life. Among many others, he quotes Mother Teresa, St John of the Cross, Brother Lawrence and Henri Nouwen. None of these people should be considered trusted sources of Christian advice and wisdom.

Conclusions

There are several conclusions we can draw. This book does contain some valuable teachings. Unfortunately it also contains a large amount of false teachings. Most alarming is the author’s blatant disregard for the proper use of Scripture. He continually uses Bible passages out of context and assigns them false meanings. He seems to view Scripture as a tool to be used and abused as he sees fit rather than seeing it as God’s holy, perfect, unchangeable standard that must be used carefully.

As for the premise of living a life driven by purpose, I remain uncertain as to whether this is really what the Bible teaches. It is interesting to examine the word “driven” in the Bible. We see that the word generally has negative connotations in Scripture. It most often denotes an active force pushing and controlling a passive subject. For example, a ship is driven by the wind and the enemies of the Israelites were driven out of the land. On the other hand the word “led” most often speaks of a believer choosing to follow God’s ways through knowing Him better. For instance the Israelites were led by a pillar of cloud which they chose to follow and Jesus taught us to ask “do not lead us into temptation.” So perhaps we are not to be driven by purpose but should instead be led by God.

I can recommend this book only to discerning readers. There is certainly some value in the book, but in my opinion the bad outweighs the good. I would certainly not use this as an introduction to Christianity or as a means of reaching unbelievers.

I am interested in seeing whether this book stands the test of time or if it is only another fad. The Christian world loves to find the “next big thing” (ie The Prayer of Jabez) but very few stand the test of time. I expect this book will have very little long-term impact in the Christian world.

Comments (140) »


1. Chris
January 12, 2004
6:06 PM

Hmmmmm. guess I’ll just have to get through the next 39 days and get back to you on this! Chris


2. ScottyMac
January 17, 2004
11:11 PM

In my first pass at reading your review, I must say that I agree with most of your assessments. I’ve spent a lot of time in the past year and a half researching the “purpose-driven” methodology in both church and personal application, and have found it wanting. I left a PD church one year ago, because it was devoid of scriptural teaching. The pastor, much like Warren, used scripture (or should I say verses from paraphrases and translations of dubious origin) to support his sermon points. I found it shallow, and a poor substitute for being taught the whole counsel of God found in scripture.

I am hoping in the coming weeks to be able to post more of my reflections on the web, written in article form.

In recent church history, there has always been a fad. There will always be a deception. Now that I’ve spent thirty years in ministry, I’m old enough to understand that most of the fad books of the past several decades are little more than fodder for the next yard sale. We’ve been deceived, thinking that profound authors and speakers have written their answers. The apostle Paul wrote in I Corinthians 2:1-5:

And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.
And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
(NAS)

I should think that if Paul’s wisdom was not a good enough basis for our faith, neither are the present ‘gospel gurus’ of this present age.

Only God can bring change to the heart, not the persuasive words of wisdom from men. All the books and sermons intended to coerce change pale to the power of the Word of God to bring change. Warren has written 40 chapters to convince his readers of the need to change their lives. Save your money and get in the Word.


3. Dave
January 22, 2004
3:44 AM

I appreciate your desire to critique Rick’s book without bashing. But I don’t agree with your final conclusions. I think you will see this book around for many years to come. I’m a pastor and have seen the Holy Spirit use it to transform lives. Does his book need a revision, perhaps on a few scriptures you nitpicked but I think there is much more scriptural teaching than not.


4. Joey Angeles
January 22, 2004
8:13 AM

I barely read the first chapter of the book and observed the out-of-context use of the scriptures. And placing the citations on the endnotes does not make it any easier to check the verses. I’m almost halfway the forty chapters when one of my churchmates told me to check your review of the book, noting that my observations are similar to yours. Indeed I agree to your observations. While I do not question the motive of the author to reach out to people for the betterment of their lives, the habit of forming a position and finding scriptural support regardless of the context is the same practice that most cults and new age groups have been using and we’ve been fighting. It’s like putting the cart ahead of the horse. Just the same, I cannot disregard the positive impact this book has on people I know.


5. Tim
January 22, 2004
8:56 AM

I certainly do not disregard the positive impact this book can and will have on people. There are many positive aspects to this book. However, to say that the positives mean that the negatives do not matter is pragmatic at best. The end does not justify the means.


6. rolan gabriel
January 23, 2004
2:25 AM

For an unbelieving audience whose intention is to be inspired, I think PDL is a good book to incorporate as a devotional source. However, as you have keenly noticed, the use, misuse & misappled verses brought about by various translations & paraphrasings somehow distort its exegitical meaning. Mature christians i guess have the capability to accept what is acceptable while rejecting the excesses & exaggerations. My call for all christian groups facilitating the PDL program, I hope you’ll be delicately watchful in studying it. I still believe in the essence Rick Warren is trying to impart, we just have to be selective.


7. nonie sables
January 25, 2004
10:18 PM

As I read the book and observe the reactions of people regarding the book, I began to analyze everything. My first obeservation about the content of the book is its emphasis on pragmatism. It has a very weak emphasis on the the explanation of the the scriptures, rather the emphasis is on the practical side of experiences of life. As I hear testimonies about this book, it seems that the book is becoming more sacred than the word of God itself. Of course this book is no substitute to the infallible Word of God-the Bible. I do hope that mature christians and faithful expositors of the bible will explain this “purpose driven life” phenomena to their congregations.


8. Chris
January 28, 2004
5:12 PM

I have read portions of the book and find the critique here mostly accurate. I agree with the uneasiness with how certain passages are treated. With this and other books, movements, and fads that flood the Christian psyche there is little to no balance implemented. It’s as if Warren’s book is becoming some apocryphal book to be read in conjunction with scripture.

The constant use of people like Mother Theresa as examples of great Christian minds by Evangelicals is exceptionally troubling to me. A Christian Pastor, Teacher or Author who wants to quote anyone just because they profess they are Christians without even looking into that person’s beliefs are in essence exposing a shallow scholarly approach to their own literature. Mother Theresa denied essential Christian doctrine. We Christians sometimes get very lax with our literature and how we express ourselves.

Even though the book is passable in generic teachings I once again see another Church fad that will leave people wondering why this latest fad didn’t do the trick in their lives. Didn’t Jesus say that in this life you will have trials and tribulations? I don’t think anyone will be able to completely figure this life out as long as we live on this planet. Even Job didn’t get all the answers he wanted.


9. Abby & Rob Campbell
January 31, 2004
2:45 PM

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I’m doing a review on the “Purpose Driven Church” which seems to be far worse than “Purpose Drive Life” in which our church is getting ready to do. I can’t wait to get this out there. You’ve been a wonderful help, and I can’t thank you enough! It’s about time someone exposes the truth on this writing! God bless you!!!


10. ScottyMac
February 2, 2004
4:59 PM

If you are planning to ‘expose’ some truth regarding the Purpose Driven Church, don’t be surprised if your warnings are both unheeded and unwelcome. Part of the PD church structure stresses unity to such a degree, that people who oppose the system are seen as threatening the unity of the church.

Before leaving a PD church over a year ago, we witnessed the marginalizing of many who dared to challenge the PD structure. Most left, as we did. It was not a pretty sight.

As you research the PD Life, you may discover it is only a tip of the whole PD iceberg. The PD church book and methodology has been around longer, and is quite an extensive (almost turnkey) system of running a church. You may even purchase Rick Warren’s sermon notes and outlines for use with your own congregation. No need to actually have to read and teach the word.


11. Susan
February 3, 2004
11:36 PM

Hello Tim,
Thank you for your site. It is read and appreciated.

Re: PDL
Our pastor sprung the PDL-40 days of purpose program on the deacons and church at the last minute. All the deacons agreed that the book had many problems, but the majority decided to go on with the $7000.00 program. There was one brave man who stood in the gap.

The Sunday School teachers and children were the last to be considered. The program that we got -at the last minute from Saddleback (PDL doesn’t offer one), also needed to be gone over carefully for scriptural accuracy. Many of the teachers are still in shock at the “lack” in the material, but the “freeze is on” for anyone who shows any disagreement. Spies are everywhere. Discipline has already been discussed by the pastor because a gossip overheard an unrelated conversation between two friends after a SS meeting. It is SAD!

I am writing this as a warning. Stay away from The Purpose Driven Life!!! It has nothing to do with God’s purpose for your life.

God’s Word Needs No Explanation
Psalm 119:105&106; John 3:16-17; Romans 12:1&2


12. Paul Spink
February 4, 2004
3:25 PM

Your expose’ of the PDL and PD movement show that it is simply the latest in a long line of those who want the “results” of discipleship (maturity of character) without having to do all the work necessary to achieve those results. Pragmatism definately has a large part in driving these programs. In this day and age of “instant” everything no one, it seems, wants to water and weed while the “crop” grows, but looks around for any and all ideas that might speed up the process. That cannot be done. But sinful man tries anyway. We want bigger and better no matter what the cost may be, and we want it now. This just causes many to take their eyes off the only One who can cause them to reach maturity and try the world’s ideas and methods. It is chilling to see Biblical Prophecy fulfilled before our very eyes, The great falling away before the Rapture of the Church. And it seems to be just the opposite to so many. The god of this age is able to make himself look like an angel of light and it appears that he is doing a good job in this last time. It also shows a glaring weakness in the teaching that has been going on in our churches in the past thirty or fourty years as so few of those so taught are able to discern the truth about these “fads” and fall for them. May we that have not been fooled, continue to examine ourselves and our teaching so that we do not fall for one of these “fads”, instead of continually being absorbed in pointing out the errors that others have made.


13. Kathy
February 6, 2004
11:45 PM

>Most alarming is the author’s blatant disregard >for the proper use of Scripture.

This really bothers me. Thank you for pointing it out. When I was a new Christian I would see that an author used a Scripture I had read in the Bible in a way that seemed odd to me. I concluded that Scripture must not be like ordinary works…it must be fair game for investing with new meanings.

What else are young people to assume when countless extremely popular, highly touted books set this example before them?

I am so annoyed by it!

Preach on…


14. Anonymous
February 10, 2004
6:49 PM

I believe that this book will go a long way to encouraging faith and growth. Friend, you seem a little arrogant in your quickness to criticize this book. Is it possible that you are a bit envious of a book that God is using to bless and help so many? You may say, “No! Of course not! I am standing for the truth!” But are you? Please be honest.

Matt


15. Christine
February 11, 2004
10:18 AM

Well, I totally agree with Tim. The opening claim of this book is that “this is not a self-help book”. But it is. It is a better written “self-help” book. But again, we’ve missed the gospel. Working in a Christian bookstore for years, I’ve been through the WWJD thing, the Jabez thing, the pocket coin thing, the trendy worship music thing, and etc. I can get through this “thing” too! No doubt that there has been many reassuring “results” (I use this word with hessitation) from this book. However, I long to see the day when people flock to read MacArthur’s “Hard To Believe”, Packer’s “Knowing God”, Piper’s “Pleasures of God” and other God-centered writings like this (I know, it is hard to stay focused when the subject is “not about us”).


16. Brett
February 13, 2004
1:04 AM

Hi Tim,

I just referred to your comments on ‘Purpose Driven Life’. I am struggling to finish the book myself as I feel I am in the ‘wilderness’ reading it. I find it very repetitious, but I guess he had to stretch it to ‘40’ chapters.

The reason for my email is that our local Baptists Church in Sydney is about to adopt the ‘40 Days of Purpose’. I am very cautious of Rick Warren and all the others who have adopted the ‘Church Growth Movement’ and I always scratch my head to try to understand why so many pastors travel to the USA to find out what the next ‘new thing’ in how to do church. I agree in what you said that we need to be Spirit-led by God’s ways and not ‘purpose-driven’ by man’s way.

I want to know if you have any feedback on the ‘40 Days of Purpose’ and if the churches who register are then now under the control of Rick Warren. My concern is that once we go down this track, it is only a matter of time that the next man-made ‘purpose-driven’ pragmatic roadshow will be adopted by our Church. What role does the Holy Spirit play?

Any feedback would be appreciated.
God Bless!


17. Blake
February 14, 2004
5:13 PM

I was encouraged to find this site. Not only was the extensive critical reading useful, but the many subsequent comments have affirmed my suspicions of the PD phenomenon. As many have noted, Warren’s intentions are most likely honorable insofar as he wishes to reach the “emerging” postmodern generation (which is at least a good 50 years old; glad to see the church is “up-to-date”).

Some have commented on the resulting marginalization of those (such as myself) who endeavor to question the PD program. This has indeed been my experience.

One of my biggest concerns (among many) is that the language of “purpose” not only suggests end-result and finality, but is also very implosive and, to an extent, self-centered. It would then seem to me that, far from being relevant to a postmodern world, the book suffers from the language of modernity which has far-too long tarnished the message of the selflessness of the gospel. What’s more, I am also concerned that the self-centeredness (both of the individual and of the church as a whole) is perhaps the worst state the church could be in in the midst of an increasingly frightening global political situation.

Thank you to the author of this site and to everyone who has responded with compassion and concern. If anyone has any suggestions for related links, I would definitely be interested.

Peace


18. Marc
February 15, 2004
2:08 PM

I believe Rick Warren is a good honest man but judging from what I’ve heard about the book, both its negatives and its positives, I don’t think any church should do a serious study of this book. I think pastors should stick to teaching the infallible Word of God, only.

No doubt, its had a very positive effect on many Christians but I have taken a look at the book and it is very soft, it does not potray the hard truth, especially with its uses of the most idiomatic translations in existance. Im saddened that my church is going to embark on a study of this book, I’d rather litsen to a sermon on the purpose of life straight from the Word of God, which is to “press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” (Phil. 3:14)

God bless, Marc (14 years old)


19. Kent McElroy
February 18, 2004
2:35 PM

I am gratified and relieved to find that others share my concern about the “fast and loose” handling of God’s Word by Rick Warren and all those who “prefer” such paraphrases as The Message and The New Century Version of the Bible.

I am curious if any others out there have noticed (on p. 88 of The Purpose Driven Life) Rick Warren’s preferred rendering of Ephesians 4:6, from the New Century Version: “The Bible says, ‘He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything.’ ” Without qualifying nor contextualizing it, Rick Warren is unwittingly supporting PANTHEISM!


20. John
February 25, 2004
11:17 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with those who’ve said the word of God should be preached from the pulpit, not any books. Currently my church is going through this book. It’s talked about as if it’s the Bible. The few times I’ve voiced my opinions about this book to fellow church members, I’ve been lectured about being judgemental, and told how much this book can change my life. Funny thing, there used to be a time when God was looked to as our life-changer. Thanks so much time for addressing the issues with this book. I feel like Elijah felt when he fled from Jezebel, thinking he alone was left of those who hadn’t bowed their knee. Glad to see I’m not alone.


21. JB
February 27, 2004
8:14 AM

Thank you, thank you! It is refreshing to know that there are others out there who aren’t just following the latest best seller. My husband and I, and a few others find ourselves examining the book with the Bible in hand. Something that we’ve found very few people do. Our pastor is even presenting the book as a church-wide study at our church. This wouldn’t be so sad, but in a meeting where my husband asked the pastor what he thought of the book, our pastor said “I’ve not read it, but a good friend said it was a good book. I respect his opinion and that’s why we are doing it.” Now, I don’t mind saying…that is driven not led. I can’t help feel that this is more about church growth and not about being led by the Spirit. Even reading Rick Warren’s own opinions on giving autographs to Castro, and reveiws that say I’d read this book over and over and over daily. Well, I thought that was what we were to do with the Bible. What is happening here is more people are being drawn unto another author and not the Author and Creator of the Universe. “Yea, hath God said?” Was enough for Eve to be tempted because she had personal gain in what she was seeking and not all glory and honor to God’s truest purposes and plans for life.


22. Shelley
February 27, 2004
8:53 AM

We recieved the following email yesterday from the Saddleback’s National Campaign Director in response to a query (at the bottom of the post) concerning their policy of welcoming Mormons to partake in their pastor-training programs, which was mentioned in the 7/21/03 USA Today article linked from their PDL sight. How about the perspective of 2nd John? This should make every believer’s hair stand on end…

——- Original Message ——-
From:
To: ;
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:55 AM
Subject: RE: pastor-training programs


Hi Randy!

I fear you’re perhaps approaching this quote from a perspective,
Bro. Of course Rick understands and acknowledges that Mormons are
non-Christian Cultists. But he IS NOT implying here that we are
embracing their eroneous doctrine when we welcome these other religious
leaders to our conference, as you state in your question, “…as if
they’re another Christian denomination”. That would be an
unsubstaniated leap. I can certainly see how you might come to
interpret this from the text of the quote, but allow me to allay your
concerns by providing you with my perspective on what I believe Rick is
saying in this article: He’s saying, in my opinion, that we’re going to
be completely open and welcome graciously any non-Christian Cult
leadership team to attend any of our PDC events. These PDC events
provide a wonderful forum for Christian Churches of any denomination as
well as non-Christian cults to join us for a presentation of the
Biblical model for the Church. We are not endorsing these cults by
allowing them to participate. Rather, we are building bridges and
fostering dialogue about these biblical principles…that may in fact
not only expose them to the truth, but they may even be persuaded by the
Holy Spirit to respond to the truth. Furthermore, the PDC conf. isn’t
the appropriate forum to debate doctrine with non-Christian Cults. The
prevailing wisdom by those who mininter to the cults, such as the
Christian Research Institute and think tanks like George Barna, is that
one on one, relational evangelism is the most effective approach to
winning cultist to the “real” Jesus Christ. I hope this has shed some
light on this for you Bro. Blessings!

Marty Cutrone
National Campaign Dir.

PS I happen to know that a “New Age Church” up in Oregon implemented
the 40 Days of Purpose this last fall…and I absolutely applaud this.
I hope and pray their people read and heard the truth, and come to a
saving knowledge of Jesus. To have discovered this and banned them from
participation, would have been a travesty and done nothing but create
ill will, and not given the Holy Spirit an opportunity to impact hearts.
My opinion…

——-Original Message——-
From: followinghim@verizon.net [mailto:followinghim@verizon.net]
Posted At: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:00 AM
Posted To: Info@PurposeDriven.com
Conversation: pastor-training programs
Subject: pastor-training programs

Hello,

I have a question concerning the following quote from the USA Today
article on Rick Warren last July:

Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention,
and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC’s doctrines, such as the
literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors.
Yet Warren’s pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists,
Mormons, Jews and ordained women.

“I’m not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won’t try
to change other denominations. Why be divisive?” he asks, citing as his
model Billy Graham, “a statesman for Christ ministering across
barriers.”

Is this correct that Mormons are welcome to partake in training as if
they were another Christian denomination? Has Pastor Warren made any
comments on these statements elsewhere? The authority of the Book of
Mormon in the LDS church is hardly a ‘non-essential’.

Thank you for your time,

Randy Childs


23. wenifred bernabat
February 29, 2004
12:21 AM

reading the book, i changed.


24. wenifred bernabat
February 29, 2004
12:22 AM

reading the book, i changed.


25. Matt
February 29, 2004
7:17 PM

Wow! I ran across this website and I am totally suprised. I see that comments about selfishness, pragmatism, church fads, loose interpretations, etc. Rick is a Godly man and his PDL model has been succesful at bringing thousands of people to Christ around the world. It is easy to attack someone when they are in the public view like Rick is. I have attended Saddlback for 10 years and has seen this so called “fad” grow from Saddleback to thousands of churches worldwide…successfully. BTW, Rick has used this so called “fad” for 20 years. I have met with PDL pastors who have had reservations, which in the end were unwarranted. I do not think the PD is the only way and I always look at Saddleback under the microscope for problems and I have yet to find one major one. Rick hates the spotlight and uses the church to spread the Gospel. Orange County is infamous for self-centered money hungry residents. I personally seen many friends, relatives, and pastors grow spiritully like no where else. Rick uses many translations because he wants God’s words to come alive to the believer and non-believer. I can go on on about how I have seen the Saddleback Valley change because of PD.

On the other hand I can see how people may question his focus on life application versus teaching verse by verse. People that are looking more for verse by verse teaching might get bored with just going to Saddleback. At times I have felt that way…but that is why there is a huge push on small groups. There are thousands of ministries and small groups at saddleback. My wife consulted at Saddleback last year and I was interested to find out about the inner workings of Saddleback and PD. I can tell you everything boils down to spreading the word of Christ through the Church and growing current believers. Every single dollar Rick and PD makes goes back to God’s Kingdom. I have seen Rick’s house and know many people that work at PD and Saddleback…every dollar goes back to the Church. PD is a model for a Church and for a person’s life. The past month Rick has been away and has not preached and can I tell you that the church’s attendance was at its highest since 9/11. We had over 400 come to Christ. It’s not abt Rick or PD…its abt Christ.

This next year Saddleback is focusing on Africa. Just wait till you see the impact on the continent of Africa. Each small group is going to adopt a Church through many resources to try and help struggling Africa.

You can be critical as much as you want but actions speak louder than words. Please check your hearts before attacking Rick and PD…because tens of thousands are going to heaven because of the love of Saddleback and PD.

I ask that everyone of you critics come to Saddleback and see the literally thousands of lives that have been and are being changed. There is such a fire for God at Saddleback. I have seen at least 10 friends from the past who were all about themselves and had major problems…sex addiction, drugs, adultry, alcholism, workaholics,etc…become believers and now even work at Saddleback or lead ministries. Evangelism and spiritual maturity at it’s best.

Commense with the complaints with bible versions and scriptual references. Remember, one of the biggest problems with attracting non-believers is sharing Christ so they can understand. Mature Christians who know the Bible many times push away non-believers with scripture quotes and references that just confuse the seeker. It is impossible to mention every aspect of Christianity in a readable book so that it might make the Christian life easier to understand.

God Bless


26. Shelley
February 29, 2004
9:29 PM

That still doesn’t explain why he allows Mormon leadership to attend his church growth conferences. Does MacDonalds’ train Burger King’s managers? Does Pepsi train Coco-Cola’s sales department?


27. Derin
March 1, 2004
4:14 PM

Hi There,

Question for those critical of PDL: Have any of you ever paraphrased or tried to put the Bible in your own words to help a child, non-Christian, or new Christian understand it better? I know I have, and so therefore am I guilty of the same “mishandling” of the Scripture as Rick Warren? Aren’t we all?
Technically, aren’t we all dealing with paraphrases and imperfect translations of God’s Word? We are not all literate in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but does that limit the Holy Spirit from being able to use things we CAN understand?

PDL is not the “end all, be all”, it is simply a tool to help anchor Christians to the basics of our faith. Do any of us have a problem with advocating greater levels of worship, true fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and evangelism? Could this PDL thing simply be the current movement of the Holy Spirit that God is using to bring people to Himself? How long will it be around? I have no idea, but I’d rather be found catching the waves of the Spirit than standing on the shore trying to stop them.

God and His eternal Word do not change. Culture and ways of communicating it do. Is it too far fetched to believe that God can use different tools at different times in history to bring people to Himself? Didn’t Paul say that he desired to become “all things to all people so that he might possibly save some?” I know that I so often limit the Holy Spirit of God in my own life because of my own “boxed in thinking”. May God deliver us from our “boxes” and let the Holy Spirit have full control of our lives.

P.S. Remember that it was the “religious” people of Jesus’ day that couldn’t stand Him and were instrumental in having Him put to death. God deliver us from “religion” and set us free to be in relationship with You!


28. Shelley
March 1, 2004
4:47 PM

Derin,

As a Free Methodist pastor, you have to agree to the following:

Our leaders may not lead the church in ways which detract or divert from our mission.

And…

We may not live in violation of the Scriptures.

In allowing Mormon leadership to partake in his pastor-training seminars, Rick Warren is violating 2 John v.9-11. In promoting his material in your church, you grant him a tacit position of leadership. The ‘because it works’ argument is pragmatic and may lead compromising your principles.

How far is too far?


29. ScottyMac
March 1, 2004
9:32 PM

I would not agree that “one of the biggest problems” we face in attracting non-believers is trying to be understandable in sharing Christ. The whole premise of trying to attract unbelievers at all is suspect, and difficult to defend from a Biblical perspective. Jesus builds the church, and He will draw unto Himself. Our responsibility is to be faithful in being a witness and proclaiming Him, not create new ways to attract a crowd.

Over the years in ministry, I’ve heard many people defend the various trendy methodologies of how to “do” church, or how to live the Christian life. And in times past, I’ve heard people use the same analogy that we should not question what the Holy Spirit might be using at any particular moment. If whatever the ‘wave’ happens to be does not align with scripture, I would be hesitant to attribute it to the Holy Spriit.

For good reason Paul says in Eph 4:14, “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine”. In Acts we read that Peter stands up and preaches to the crowd, using texts from Joel and the Psalms. Three thousand people were saved. It had nothing to do with Peter’s methodology. He was simply being faithful to proclaim the truth of Scripture, and the Lord used it to draw men unto Himself.

Waves come and go, and not everything that washes up on the shore is good. I would rather forego trying to figure out what the latest trend in church methodology is, and simply do what the Bible says to do. That way, God gets the glory, and we’re not tripping over ourselves promoting someone’s new book or trying to catch the next gospel wave.

My comments are not offered to offend anyone who believes otherwise. I can certainly appreciate the zeal expressed by some who evidently find much in the PD movement to promote. But we’ve spent billions of dollars in the last several decades chasing new trends in Christianity, and yet I find more to be concerned about in the Evangelical church at this time than any other time in my life.

The oft-quoted “this book changed my life” phrase used by so many about so many new and different books in recent times rings hollow without the benefit of seeing that change lived out over a lifetime. The next time someone says that to me, my response will be, “we shall see”.

In my 30 years of ministry, I’ve read a great many “new” Christian books. So far, I can only say “this book changed my life” in relationship to the Bible. I don’t expect that to change anytime soon.


30. Agnes
March 8, 2004
8:47 AM

The book to begin with? The Bible! Any moment and time we as Bible believing, Christ-centered Christian’s think we can’t stand alone on the Word of God, we cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit. How could we depart, add to, believe that man has a better plan than the One we are filled with? Anything above and beyond that we offer is saying that we are in need of something other than the Word of God to present. I find that there is not distinction in P.D.L. that gives Scripture in the way it was intended. Almost always Warren uses Scripture to suit what he’d like to say and uses it more often than not, out of context. That’s dangerous. And he also makes no distinction between who God is speaking to when he shares Scripture. Often he allows Scripture which is speaking to saved or unsaved to go unmentioned. He doesn’t clarify. That’s dangerous because most people will not check the Scripture out. As a Shepherd/Pastor it’s Warren responsibility to bring the message of the Word of God correctly. I certainly don’t know Warren’s heart, but I do know that God’s Word has a warning for those who bring the Word in a false way. Warren discusses this, sort of, on page 165. Though he fails to mention that the context of those passages are talking to false teachers not gossipers. Gossipers are not even mentioned. What the context here does speak on is evil speech and lying. My prayer for anyone who picks up and reads this book is that they have a Bible next to them. If your church is doing this study…study the Scripture’s that Warren so nicely mentions and tucks way in the back of the book. You have to go to the “Notes” section because all he gives in each chapter is a number reference to refer to. In a world saturated with untruth, watered down/added to Scritpure, allow God and the Word of God to be that which guides and directes you in the answers you seek. I don’t believe that Rick Warren could hand a copy of any of his books (which he mentions throughout this book) to Jesus and say he should use this to get through to the unsaved, unsure walking people in the world. I believe however that Jesus did clearly give us all we need and told us straight from the Father, God, that we need to stand alone on what we profess in believing in Jesus and on the Word of God. My purpose today and every day as a Bible-Believing Christ? To prepare and work for Jesus unto Eternity. “Seek first His Kingdon” Matthew 6:33 Jesus didn’t say come unto P.D.L., no sirree, He said to come unto Him and He’ll give you rest. I know I will never be at home here because here is not my home. Warren makes it sound like we are to get comfy and be at home here. If someone asks me how I like this book I’d have to say, I live my life before God alone and I must live my life before God alone. I am not accountable to the author of that book for the ways and plans he has “proven”. I’d have to recommend that someone who reads this book only does so in looking up every Scripture given and even more. Because Rick Warren quotes himself from his books quite often. Let’s all remember it’s impossible to please God and not walk in His ways. Warren believes that there was some tweaking and new additions to be added to the Word. That which includes polling the population of his church to see what they wanted. We can go back and find out that what was popular wasn’t always what was good for the people or right. We are always going to be doing either the will of God, satan, or self (man). There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that confirms Rick Warren’s statement on pg.166 where he thinks pastors have the job/task of keeping everyone happy. Rick Warren believes that the methods he’s come up with regarding P.D.L. living are for people who will be with this program or against. And, if your against it he’s found a way to put you in your place in his books. God blesses His Body and that is His Church. Rick Warren says that God blesses the churches that are unified. Find a church where everyone is completely in one accord and you will find a cult following. You will find that the church that is like that makes sure that anyone who questions something will be removed or leveled and will be labeled a rebel. I’d rather be a rebel with a cause for Christ and God’s Word than a rebel with a cause and mission for Rick Warren and P.D.L. You’ll know if your doing okay because you will have the peace that passes understanding. If it’s true that unified churches are only the ones blessed than how come Jesus said we’d be suffering for only this little while here until he returns. God’s blessings have nothing to do with the entirety of the church being unified. Not unless the unity is coming from living out the Word of God. We have peace that passes understanding and not the peace that is affored when functioning on P.D.L.’s plans and purposes. Don’t look to be a world class Christian. Look to be getting that crown that comes only because we’ve purposed and planned our walk for Christ according to the Word of God not the words of Rick Warren.


31. Tim
March 8, 2004
9:38 AM

Thanks for your comments, Agnes. I believe you are correct in many of your criticisms of The Purpose Driven Life.

I really do not think there is anything wrong with writing a book about discovering our purpose in life. What I take issue with is the way Warren wrote this book. Purpose is great, but only if it is supported properly from Scripture. That is where Warren did a poor job.


32. Ann
March 11, 2004
4:59 PM

Thank you so much..I have been battling upstream on this until I’m about to drown. If I hear “Purpose Driven” or “Passion” one more time … When did the uncompromised Word of the Living God become so old fashioned? My prayer is that people will get in the Word and be Berean Christians, instead of following a lot of the mislead leadership out there. I am still looking for a church that hasn’t fallen prey to the church growth-seeker friendly movement.I appreciate the insight you have provided, as I and some others continue to take hits because of our stand for the pure Word of God.


33. ann
March 12, 2004
7:28 AM

As an ending thought - - I believe I must add that if Rick Warren is a “godly” man, exactly what do we have to look forward to? Is he the standard? If so, we fall woefully short. Do I believe he loves Jesus? Probably. But I wonder where all the godly counsel and accountability is for those who are in leadership, those who are supposed to be our shepherds..are they leading us out of the abyss, or into it?


34. Anonymous
March 15, 2004
1:31 AM

I am so glad I found you! I am teaching this PDL book during LEnt…and you’re right..I am feeling woefully pressed for some lives to change here…and to deliver those dutifully changed lives to my senior pastor. I have a difficult with his concept of God….like an old man with a clipboard and a chart..who writes down every good and bad thing we do….What is that about? Can this liberal Methodist make it through the wilderness to Easter??


35. Shelley
March 19, 2004
11:27 AM

This is excerpted from an excellent article by Bob Dewaay, ‘How PDL obscures the Gospel’ which can be found at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/articles/issue80.htm

American Pietism

On the surface, Warren promotes a very rigorous version of Christianity. He calls for total surrender as the way to the “deeper” life (Warren: 82, 83). He distinguishes between “worldly” and “world-class” Christians (Warren: 297). He tells his readers to do many things to make themselves better Christians. Most of it comes down to making choices and working harder at following Warren’s teachings. In his teaching both salvation and sanctification are synergistic (i.e. man and God working together). Thus our part boils down to methods for being more holy. Warren says, “Spiritual growth is a collaborative effort between you and the Holy Spirit” (Warren: 180). He says, “Decide to be a disciple” (Warren: 180). He says concerning salvation, “God will give you what you need if you just make a choice to live for him” (Warren: 58). Yet again Warren says, “Christlikeness is the result of making choices and depending on his Spirit to help you fulfill those choices” (Warren: 180).

Many Christians will see nothing wrong with this teaching because they have been taught similar material most of their lives; but it is not what the Bible teaches. According to the Bible, one begins and continues in the Christian faith by grace through faith—and that grace is solely of God. Synergism was a key issue at the Reformation, with the Roman Catholic Church promoting man and God working together (synergism) and the Reformers teaching God working alone (monergism). Salvation is a work of God, not a cooperative effort between God and man. Becoming Christlike is not a matter of making the right choices, but a matter of trusting God through the gracious means He has provided—but right choices result. God is sovereign both in salvation and sanctification: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified” (Romans 8:29, 30). Paul asks, “Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3).

Pietism as expressed by Warren and many others looks for “secrets” to a deeper life through rigorous religious ritual or practices. He offers an easy way into the Christian life (make a choice and pray this little prayer) and then makes the teachings of Jesus about dying to self and carrying one’s cross a higher level of Christian living for the truly pious. Jesus made these things part of the terms of salvation (see the story of the rich young ruler). The practice of offering easy believism for salvation and then presenting the claims of Christ’s Lordship later as advancement in the Christian life, MacArthur calls “bait and switch” (MacArthur: 17). Warren commands his readers to do things God never asks of them. He makes things God commands (like repenting and believing the gospel) a choice, and things that are choices (like writing a journal Warren: 222, 308, 309) commands. Thus he perverts the gospel and the Christian life. Why should any of us submit to his man-made pietism? Rick Warren is not God’s lawgiver.


36. Susan
April 6, 2004
4:54 PM

I have been checking and have noticed that there have not been any new comments added for several weeks now. Is this because we have all grown weary of this whole topic; OR, is it because like me and my family and friends, we are in FULL BATTLE MODE with our armor on (Ephesians 6:10-18).

Those of you who have been through the battle of PDL’s 40 Days of Purpose in particular, PLEASE BE IN PRAYER FOR ALL OF US who are standing firm in wanting God’s Word adhered to and taught from the pulpit. (2Timothy 4:1-5) PDL modifications are being considered for each ministry within our church. This is not an easy time.

I am praying that this has been a “wake-up call”
for all of us, in our walk with God each day. Let’s not take our relationship with God or the study of His Word for granted. What we have is precious! The unwatered down, Gospel(John 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:8-9) needs to be shared, so that others will get to enjoy that same relationship, too - for all eternity!

Stay submitted to God and in the Word!
Romans 12:1&2


37. ScottyMac
April 6, 2004
5:59 PM

Thank you for your prayer request. I too have checked back a number of times to see little activity in posting on this subject. Occasionally I will search for more articles on the issue, and have found some good ones. More people seemed to be aware of the danger of this new methodology, but it is still a small minority. Until people are fully convinced in their hearts of the sufficiency of teaching God’s word, more will fall prey to the parade of deceptions that will come.

Seeing the success of this book, no doubt others will follow with another fad and methodology. I’d be surprised if Rick Warren isn’t already writing a sequel. As I talk with people about this issue, my heart is to warn them of any man or methodology that seeks to establish themselves or their methods as a way to God. Our High Priest is Jesus. We need no other.

The church of the past 50 years has become very accustomed to following self-proclaimed leaders. We often esteem too highly the Dobsons, Swindolls, Colsons, and Warrens of our time. A good leader will lead you to the cross, and won’t continue to stand in the way once you’re there. Man, I want Jesus. I want to be taught the word, not about the machinations of man.

I recently received an email from someone who had just gone through the 40 Days of Purpose at their church. In his excitment he proclaimed “now if we can only be diligent to practices the 5 purposes we learned, we’ll see how God can move in our church”. Whoa…that sounds like old covenant to me. God isn’t looking to see how well we do in practicing Warren’s five purposes so He can move in our churches. Paul says in I Corinthians 1 that man in his wisdom did not come to know God. Why is it that men keep trying to devise ways to know God? What is it in the church that keeps people searching for a new way to be ‘spiritual’? Why do we feel the need for ‘another’ high priest?

So many questions…in the meantime, we need to pray for all the churches like Susan’s that are diverging from the Word of God.


38. Rick
April 8, 2004
11:18 AM

Two things really concerned me about Mr. Warrens book; #1 The application of Ez 3:18 where he extrapolates that Christians are to held personnaly responsible for the lost soul of another. “Save one more for Jesus” and #2 Out of a church 1800, I felt like I was the only one who had concerns about this book and Mr. Warrens slice and dice of scripture.
It is such a relief to hear of others who put our Lord and His word first.


39. friend
April 8, 2004
12:00 PM

The following letter was sent by a deacon to church leaders only. The response has been vindictive. Please pray for us (names and places edited out).

To our leaders,

Here are some post 40 Days thoughts to consider, especially in light of
Pastor’s message on Sunday. I submit these with prayer and after much
thought.

It has been some time since The 40 Days Of Purpose entered into our
plans. Some in the church have been Berean-like and searched the
Scriptures daily to see if those things were so and some have not. I
scold myself for not having done this years ago when I was first
introduced to Rick Warren’s ideas.

After reading and listening [on cd] to the PDL book cover to cover twice and
studying the introduction and the first seven chapters line by line and
verse by verse, I was brought back to the days when I first trusted the
Lord as my Savior and was discipled by my spiritual father. He taught
me to study the Word of God verse by verse, chapter by chapter, and book
by book, so that I would get the big picture and the little ones without
being led astray by a verse out of context or interpreted wrongly.
However, with Rick Warren, I find a man who often uses the Word of God
to confirm his ideas in the same way that cultists do, out of context,
wrongly interpreted, or with a poor Bible translation. This is the kind
of teacher that my spiritual father taught me to avoid!!!

Refer to:
http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcAnalysis.htm

The above web page is the most insightful, thorough, intelligent, and
Biblical critique of PDL I have found. The author’s conclusion begins
with the following paragraph.

“The Purpose-Driven® Life may contain some helpful, Biblical truths, but
it cannot be trusted to lead a believer on a spiritual journey that is
completely true and faithful to the Word and will of God. Why? Because
Warren often misinterprets Scripture to his own advantage, conjoins
untrustworthy, humanistic psychological principles with Biblical truths,
minimizes the importance of sound doctrine, deems holiness and biblical
separation as less important than love and unity, refers to enemies of
the faith as positive contributors to one’s spiritual journey and
promotes his entire Purpose-Driven® program. For these and other
reasons, believers cannot trust The Purpose-Driven® Life and churches
should refrain from participating in the 40 Days of Purpose campaigns.”

In a spirit of love, we should be careful about forcing programs upon
our church members without their complete cooperation. It is sad to hear
that some of our members have gotten involved with this program in a
spirit of “fear”.

I remember the early days of the church [when it met at] the Community
Center where we studied the Word of God and my family was pleased to
join with a Bible preaching minister. However, today, I see books other
than the Word of God leading the way. I see a church being led not by
the Word of Truth but by the guidance of a man named Rick Warren. I see
a church where many members do not carry a Bible or use it (Acts 17:11).
I see a church where the feelings and spirit of a number of Christians
have been hurt or crushed in deference to a “program” (get with the
program now!). I see a church where leaders have left or stepped down
when we have a dire need for leadership. I see a church where numbers
and “reaching the lost” programs take priority over (Act 2:42) …
continuing steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, and in fellowship and
in the breaking of the loaves, and in prayers.

As a Christian, I can accept different preferences, likes and dislikes,
but in Christ I cannot accept extra-Biblical ideas and methods in place
of Scriptural principles and instruction. God says that (2Ti 3:16,17)
All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man
of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work. In
other words, the Word of God is solely sufficient to equip us as
Christians. Paul instructed Timothy to (2Ti 4:2) preach the Word, be
instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all
long-suffering and doctrine. Paul did not exhort Timothy to emphasize
great music and feel-good messages. Lately, our church sounds more like
“join a small group”, “read today’s PDL chapter”, “stick with the
program”, “testify to PDL’s blessings”, and “rah-rah-rah”. The last few
weeks, I have been reading and listening to McArthur, Sproul, and others
preach the Word of God. It has been refreshing. I desire 2Ti 4:2 for
our church. It sounds old-fashioned but it is Scriptural.

There is a great article in World Magazine about a new movement in the
Church today.

http://worldmag.com/world/issue/04-10-04/national_4.asp

This new movement involves Christians who are turned off by the
pragmatic thinking and watered-down preaching of many boomer
churches. The main themes of this movement include applying the Word of
God with strong authenticity to real life and real problems with real
community where people connect to one another with deep interpersonal
relationships, not artificially created two hour weekly relationships.

It may not be a coincidence (I really don’t believe in coincidences)
that God is raising up nearby a new Bible centered Gospel preaching
church plant. It is being supported by a number of fundamental churches
around the country. In a recent newsletter, this new church announced
that it had 62 in attendance (32 local visitors) in their first Sunday
morning service with two people trusting Christ as Savior. PTL.

Not to be so down on PDL, the 40 Days has been a great benefit to me
indirectly. It has re-awakened in me a desire to study the Word of God
in context and a commitment to prayer. After seeing the Word so
disrespected by an author, I have been motivated to rightly divide the
Word of Truth and to pray that we would all be like the Bereans (Acts
17:11). So with the Word, I am better able to “fight” for the Word of
God and against the words of men.

Finally, in the last few months, beyond the increase in attendance and
other spiritual blessings, we have seen for the first time in my memory,
major disagreements about the direction of our church among the
congregation. Rick Warren states that this is to be expected. I say
that it should not be. On Sunday, Pastor said that we should not put on
the brakes. I say that we must turn the steering wheel to the “right”
to the Word of God. Steering by Rick Warren is bound to result in a
church that glorifies ourselves and our accomplishments instead of God.

Respectfully submitted in Christ,
(name)


40. Shari
April 9, 2004
8:36 AM

Someone has suggested we have become “weary” of this topic (PDL) due to the lack of new postings recently. I too, have been checking this site to see what others are saying on this subject. To say I am weary or wary of “40 days” is an enormous understatement. My church (Mennonite) is getting ready to begin “40 days” but the pre-hype makes it feel as though we’ve been in it for too long already. There are two signs advertising outside and several inside the church. When you walk into our church you are greeted with a big 8’ round sign with a large 40 on it behind a table with all the 40 days paraphanalia. It seems to me that anything requiring this much pre-hype and advertising in a church obviously cannot stand on its own merrits.


41. john omahen
April 9, 2004
2:59 PM

This is in response to those who say that Rick has led thousands to Christ. A few basic facts:

- Sorry but I do not see a large number of changed lives. I have been blessed to work with both large (larger than Saddleback) and small ministries in my career and I am always concerned when I hear someone says that thousands of lives have been changed in this Rancho Santa Margarita-Mission Viejo- Foothill Ranch corridor. I attended Saddleback for 8 months and had no pre-conceived notion regarding Rick Warren’s teachings.
I can unequivocally say that this area of Orange County has not changed for the gospel because of his teaching and preaching. As many people you can show me that supposedly changed their lives from drugs and sexual abuse I can show you similar ” Saddleback saved and baptized” people who “think” they changed and their actions make a Muslim look saved. A Mormon could go to their AA sponsored meetings, get clean attend church on Saturday or Sunday and think they are saved.

- I can show you two churches in the same corridor with less than 150 members each, who in the past 5 years, can show you lives changed to the point where they have weathered tougher times. Let me define that. When Christ talked about bearing your cross he was not talking about having a bad day with your child or having to have your car fixed. He was talking about the 20 year veteran of the Sheriffs department who was passed over for promotion because he shared Christ with a three time loser. The Sheriff is gone from the Orange County Department but that “loser” ,though in prison for life, is tied into Prison Fellowship and running bible studies.
Now a comparison to two couples in my neighborhood who proudly displayed Saddleback signs on their front lawns. Those two couples believed that they were saved but both couples went through a divorce and left our area. See they never heard in Rick’s sermons or learned in their Small Groups that they had to turn away from self and honor your partner. I watched them continually arrogant and prideful and not willing to change.

- If you work at any store within 10 miles of Saddleback you hear people joke about the Saddleback Christians. Why? Because these “Saddleback saved” act no better if not worse than the non-believers in this region.

- Remember Matthew 7. Do not judge hypocritically. The gate is narrow not wide. Watch out for false prophets. Good fruit stays good over time and through hard times. Head knowledge of Jesus does not get you into Heaven it is heart knowledge. Build your house on the rock and not the slippery sand of an unrepentant gospel. I have sat in Rick’s seminars and written both him and his staff regarding scriptural errors. No one is interested in truly engaging in a true discussion of biblical truth.

In His Service,

John O


42. Susan
April 11, 2004
1:22 PM

Re: Prayer for Susan’s church & others like it

A line was drawn on Wednesday night. The pastor said we needed to apologize for not supporting the 40 Days of Purpose Program; and that we either had to get behind him now or go. (We have been with this man since he started a plant church “teaching the Word of God” in his living room 14 years ago.)

Rick Warren or God’s Word?

Precious friends, little children in Sunday School, prayer time with hurting hearts.

CHURCH LEADERS - WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THIS SOME DAY.

Sadly, our family turned our letter of resignation and church keys in on Friday.

2Timothy 2:15
“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

2 Timothy 3:12-17
“12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecusion. 13 But evil men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that knowing from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Stay in the Word and in Prayer

GOD IS FAITHFUL!


43. Tim
April 11, 2004
1:46 PM

Wow, Susan, that is so sad. It always amazes me how divisive things like this program can be. Rather than allowing the Word of God to be the issue that divides us we allow the words of men to pull us apart. Those who do not support it are often labelled as dissenters and forced to leave. I am sorry to hear that this happened to you, yet admire your willingness to stand for what you believe is true.

I pray that God will bless you with a new church home where you can be fed with the pure gospel.


44. Anna
April 11, 2004
8:14 PM

Does anyone know of a Bible teaching church in Orange county? One that does not use Warren’s book or talk about it? I have visited at least 20 churches in Orange county after being a member of a fundamental “holiness” church for 30 yrs.


45. ScottyMac
April 12, 2004
10:20 PM

Susan’s experience is very disappointing, but not surprising. I’m not sure if the church is an ‘official’ PD church, but unity is stressed to such a degree that disagreement is not tolerated.

I recently came across this quote from A.W. Tozer regarding church division,
“When confused sheep start over a cliff, the individual sheep can save himself only by separating from the flock. Perfect unity at such a time can only mean total destruction for all. The wise sheep to save his own hide disaffiliates.”

Powerful words written decades before PD was invented. All church unity is not of God.

Someone asked about a Bible-teaching church in Orange County. Most Calvary Chapels teach the word systematically in expositional style. Most would not fall for the PD thing, and some are preaching against it. Though viewed by some as “Charismatics” because they are not cessationists, they really have very little in common with most Pentecostal or Charismatic churches. I find their emphasis on the word most comforting. Even John MaCarthur has had favorable things to say about them.


46. David Wayne
April 14, 2004
11:12 AM

Tim,

Just wanted you to know I appreciated your review and I referenced it in a post on my blog -here’s the url -

http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2004/04/john_calvin_ric.html

Looks like you have stirred up a good brew of discussion - I have enjoyed reading the comments as much as the review.

I had a tangential thought on this matter the other day for which I would love to hear your reaction. The tangential thought is this - “is it wise to reduce our faith to a limited number of propositions?” Applying this to the whole PDL phenomenon I am saying that if we accept for the sake of argument that the five purposes have a biblical basis, is it wise to let those five purposes define the entirety of our faith and become the grid through which we interpret all of life and Scripture.

Where this tangent came from was in reflecting on some things I had heard in seminary about J. Gresham Machen. Machen was the intellectual leader of the fundamentalists during the fundamentalist/modernist controversy, yet he was never fully on board with his fellow fundamentalists. He didn’t like the idea of reducing the faith to a set of 5, 7, or 10 fundamentals. This wasn’t a broad enough definition of his beliefs. He affirmed the Westminster Confession. I would take this a step further and say that, though I subscribe to the Westminster Confession, it is insufficient to describe what I believe. Though I believe it is accurate where it speaks, it doesn’t summarize all biblical truth.

So, I am wondering if we don’t lose something when we reduce our faith to five purposes, 7 fundamentals, or even 5 points (of Calvinism). While we can affirm these things as true, they ought not to be seen as the totality of what we believe. Our error is not in affirming those things, our error is in acting as if the big 5 or 7 or whatever sum up all we believe.

Thanks for giving me space to write.

David


47. ScottyMac
April 14, 2004
3:40 PM

I like David’s “tangential” thoughts. I’ve wondered too why we tend to principalize our beliefs in neat little systems to follow. Is there something in our fallen nature that strives to live under the law? I wonder if many Christians do not find grace “sufficient”, and devise clever works to achieve righteousness.


48. Susan
April 14, 2004
11:55 PM

Hi Tim!

It’s me, Susan. Thank you for your prayers. I just wanted to let you all know that we attended our new church again tonight. Another family from our former church also came to hear the Word of God taught. We stayed and enjoyed a warm time of fellowship with various people visiting from out of state; total strangers, yet brothers and sisters in Christ. It was wonderful!

Through the years, many tracts have been passed out and many prayers have been prayed for our neighborhood. God knew just when to provide this plant church, not five minutes away from our home.
Awesome!

God is FAITHFUL!
Just wanted to share the PRAISE!

“But we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28


49. Tim
April 15, 2004
2:29 PM

Thanks for sharing that praise, Susan. I have been praying for your family and I’m sure others who have read this have too! It is awesome to see God answering prayer.


50. Bookman
April 17, 2004
8:12 AM

When you say that the 40 day purpose driven program was sprung on your church,I know what you mean,thats the way it was done in our church,and I believe this is the way it is done in most churchs,the general church membership is kept in the dark until the last possible moment,the reason for this is so that those implementing thse changes can utilize the element of surprise to the fullest and if possible give no one in the church who might disagree any time to think about it until after the vote,,when its too late.What happens is Rick Warren targets the church pastor first and converts him,the church pastor then gathers around him a “core” group,Warren then sends one of his “change agents” to hold a transition conference”in the area,the pastor then takes this “core group” to this conference,usually without the consent or knowledge of the church,,in our case without the knowledge of even the deakons board,they are then taught how to go back to their church and transition it to a Rick Warren type church.It doesnt always work,the Parkside Baptist church in Moncton N.B. recently went through this,the church is now virtually destroyed,the pastor just resigned and its possible the church will never recover,the Baptist church in Shediac N.B.,recntly did the program,it was a field of two churchs,it is now split,and the pastor is on part time because the remaining church cannot afford to pay him.Our church is presently undergoing this program,,and yes there are those of us who have said wait a minute,what about this or what about that,,and yes we have been marginalized and seen as the enemy,,standing in the way of Gods work and all that,and it may become necessary to go to another church,,this is a small community and there is no annonimity here,once you make your views known there no where to hide,,this could be fatal because the pastor and his core team are know reviewing material in which disenters are likened to wolves in sheeps clothing and the question is asked,,what would you do if you owned a flock of sheep and you saw a wolf amongst them,the answer is then given”you would shoot it”.So heres the problem what if those who are pointing to some sheep and saying they are wolves and need to be shot are actually the wolves in sheeps clothing themselves,,when the shooting starts a lot of sheep could go down and when the smoke clears the casualties could make the feud between the Hatfields and the Macoys seem like small potatoes,,if you dont hear from me,,I may be too busy dodging lead,,,or,,,someone may be skinning my kide to see if they shot a sheep or a wolf.


51. Shelley
April 17, 2004
9:25 AM

Bookman, you’ve nailed it. Here’s a recent thread at Pastors.com (a PDC/PDL support site) on ‘managing’ opposition in the church:

http://forums.pastors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=17566&STARTPAGE=1

(This post in particular stands out…)

You have to make a determination whether this person is one of the following:

1. A Wounded Sheep
2. A Goat
3. A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing

The way you deal with them from there will be determined by which one they are.

You love and nurse the the wounded sheep back into health one on one.

You seperate the Goat from the rest of the sheep and don’t allow the Goat to butt heads and steal the food. Eventually without food the Goat will go to other pastures.

The Wolf…well, there’s only one thing to do with a wolf….shoot them. No sense in trying to stop a wolf from biting the sheep…if he is a wolf, you have to get rid of him.

Not making light of the situation either. I know this is real and it hurts, but you have to confront one on one and stop this from going any farther. By the way, your personal feelings can become a part of the correction as long as you don’t sin. Jesus had all the emotions and feelings that you have and he had some pretty classic responses to all three groups of people.

Lastly, remember that there are a lot more people that are waiting to be led than are causing trouble. Don’t spend so much time with the ones who are causing trouble that you let good people left without solid leadership.

Glen

It’s not about us…it’s a “God Thing”

——-

I don’t think I get his remark about ‘goats stealing food from the sheep’. When members quietly approach their pastor about the lightweight teaching and their desire for more Bible, who is it that’s going hungry?? Also, his advice to ‘let your personal feelings become a part of the correction’ sounds too much like giving oneself permission to indulge the flesh (“Now’s my opportunity to tell them what I REALLY think of them!”).


52. Anonymous
April 17, 2004
1:10 PM

Im not sure if this will go through because of the note saying not to submit more than one response but here goes,,,If anyone is interested in seeing where all this may be headed they need to look into such things as “Lectio Divina”,”centering prayer”,”renovare”,”contemplative prayer” and the people who are pushing them like”Richard Foster”,”Thomas Merton”,etc. Both Saddleback and Willow Creek are now infested with such teachings which are in reality an attempt to merge some of the teachings of Buddism with Christianity


53. Charity
April 18, 2004
2:32 PM

Some of you may be interested in checking this
site out….it is exactly what we are going
thru with our church….I couldn’t believe how
well the article fit our situation…

http://www.crmspokane.org/pastorletter.htm


54. ScottyMac
April 21, 2004
2:26 PM

I would be interested to find out more in regards to “centering prayer”, etc mentioned in the post above, especially as it relates to PD and CGM.
I’ve compiled a page of links to various PD and CGM topics located at http://www.campwest.com/ministry.htm
Information about others would be appreciated.


55. Tim
April 21, 2004
2:42 PM

Scotty - I think you need to concentrate some of your effort on The Purpose Driven Church. It seems that PDC was the book that “softened up” the churches, allowing PDL to flourish to such an extent. If PDC had not had such a huge impact in many churches I doubt PDL would have met with so much “success.”


56. Anonymous
April 21, 2004
6:18 PM

Your right, Tim. I’d love to spend some more time researching that whole dimension of the PD system.

I’ve tended to think that it is somewhat recipricol, in that while the PD church has ‘soften up’ the churches, the PD Life has also introduced the PD church concept to many.

I’m aware of several churches who do not consider themselves PD, but have introduced their congregations to the “40 Days of Purpose”. I’ve talked with a couple of friends who have raved about PD Life, and were unaware of the existence of the whole system.

What a great (word used advisedly) marketing system going on with it. I wonder what would happen if an equal effort was exhibited by churches to rightly divide the word of God.


57. Bookman
April 22, 2004
12:19 PM

Here are a few sites on centering prayer,,,they may raise the hair on the back of your neck,http://www.innerexplorations.com/chmystext/ques2.htm and http://search.netscape.com/boomframe.jsp?query=c


58. Shelley
April 29, 2004
12:34 PM

How PDC, and other Church Growth Methods, deals w/ resisters:

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm


59. Susan
April 30, 2004
3:02 PM

I went to the article listed above Re: How PDC, and other CGM deals with resisters and was in tears throughout the reading. Been through it. I love and miss and pray for my “Church Family”.

Since being forced to leave, other folks have begun attending our new church, where THE BIBLE is taught - full time. (One lady attended our former church for 50 years. Her mom used to hold her on her lap while her mom taught Sunday School.) There are still others who are staying on at our former church.

For those of you who have been through this difficult experience - Question: Only the Holy Spirit and the Word can reveal the deception, but what can we do both within and outside the church to help our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is so arkward. Comments please?

BTW-ScottyMac, thank you for your comments and your new web page!


60. Charity
April 30, 2004
3:31 PM

Thanks Susan…we are going thru the same
thing at our church….attended evangelistic meetings last week at a nother church… and what a refreshing time..
showing us what we are lacking in preaching
and missing in fellowship thru all of this
purpose driven process to change the church…now
we have to make a decision…this church we
attended last week… preaches the WORD from the BIBLE…
we feel if we gradually wean away it may be easier
but we have been advised that it won’t be..as
I drove by our church last Sunday to attend this
other one…my heart was torn…I felt I was
betraying everyone by not attending my own..
it is a difficult decision and one that can only
be made thru prayer and God’s guidance…thanks
for sharing Susan…


61. bookman
April 30, 2004
4:34 PM

Thanks “Shelly”,I will check out that site,and yes Brett once a church takes the 40 day program it does tend to become controlled by Rick Warren,,in two ways,,first when implementing the program Warren advises them to take note of those who oppose his purpose driven program and depending on whether they are sheep or goats they arer to be either driven out of the church or shot”meaning destroyed”,,in some unspecified manner,,this means that the present church program is to be pared down using Warrens program and then Warrens “101”program is implemented and any future member must take Warrens “101” course and sign a covenant or they cannot be a church member,,,this gives Warren through his “101”course at least some say and control over who can be a member in most churchs who have taken his “purpose driven program”,so most “purpose driven churchs put on their “Rick Warren” glasses when deciding who can either presently be a member,,or who is eligable to join in the future,,,whatever happened to “if you believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Son of God,you may”


62. ScottyMac
May 1, 2004
8:41 PM

Just read the “Resistors” article…wow. That hurts just a wee bit. All too familiar.


63. Eric Kron
May 1, 2004
10:21 PM

If anyone is interested, two men at my church (one our pastor-teacher, the other a seminary-trained man) wrote a “short” review which is available at: http://www.hbc-boise.org/docs/pdl.htm There is also a PDF version available.

It deals with many of these same issues brought up in this review, while looking at a few other points and providing examples as to how ridiculous it is to think that God will always change your life in 40 days.

As the website (www.hbc-boise.org) indicates, feel free to pass along the review, if you see fit, but please pass it along in its entirety.

In Christ,
Eric in Boise


64. John D. SUllivan
May 4, 2004
12:49 PM

I have not read this book, but may now. I found your conclussions to be utter nonesense and motivated by a narrow , fundametalist, almost fanatical view.

To say Mother Teresa and St John of the Cross should not be trusted is rediculous. We must remember the New Testament was writen by men, 70 to 150 years AFTER Crist’s death, by as many as 5 sources! It is not the word of God, but the Teachings of Christ as remembered by men. It is not the foundation of law, and should not be interpreted as such.


65. Tim
May 4, 2004
4:26 PM

John - To hold such a view is to deny what the Scripture claims for itself. The Bible claims to be the very Word of God and is so much more than just the words of men. Also, I think you will find that there are more than 5 authors in the New Testament.


66. bookman
May 4, 2004
5:02 PM

very strange John D.,because Jesus said”heaven and earth shall pass away,but my words shall not pass away”,,in order for you to be right Jesus would have to be wrong,,guess who I choose to believe is right??,,here is a good site,,I dont know if it is the same one you read or not Scotty,,http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm


67. Susan
May 4, 2004
8:35 PM

John,
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is given by inspiration “of God”. Inspiration means GOD BREATHED, not written by mere mortals; and all means ALL!


68. ScottyMac
May 4, 2004
9:09 PM

Eric,
I read the article you referenced with great interest…good stuff. I believe one of the authors, Mike Hale, is a good friend from my past. I was not able to find an email address on the site. Can you provide one?


69. Jeri
May 5, 2004
1:37 AM

This article provides a good bit of detail in its critique of PDL http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/articles/issue80.htm


70. Jeri
May 5, 2004
2:33 AM

And this from the perspective of the “emerging-church” movement…
http://www.indwes.edu/tuesday/emerging.worship.characteristics.htm


71. Susan
May 5, 2004
12:53 PM

Charity,
You have been on my heart and in my prayers. We love and miss our “family”; and it HURTS! But God does know and He is working in and through our prayers for them.

Eric,
Thank you for yet another excellent article pointing out the infalibility of the Word of God, but not so - Rick Warren.

I keep coming back to the question, “How could men (pastors & deacons), who say they love God, get so entangled in this MESS?”. The warnings went out, but were ignored, time and time again.

The first thing that I noticed in the PDL article by Pastors Hale & Harris was this statement.

“As two pastors who love God’s people….”

I think I have found the answer to my question.

GOD IS FAITHFUL!


72. Anonymous
May 5, 2004
7:08 PM

I have asked the same question during this past year…how could so many be decieved into this whole PD structure?

What a contrast between the shepherd who desires to nurture and feed God’s flock, and the pastor whose love is conditional upon how well you fit into his plans and purposes for the church. Stand in the way of a pastor just once and you’ll quickly determine whether or not he is a shepherd. You may just find he is really a CEO in disguise.

I found this ‘pro-PD’ web site some months back. Interesting to see how they place everyone in the fellowship of an emerging PD church into one of four boxes.

http://mintools.com/church-purpose6.htm


73. Shelley
May 6, 2004
9:37 AM

counterfeit trap - How alluring to offer something that has an illusion of being real but lacks substance. These are often the short cuts we take or the misinformed directions we embark on because they were the easier, more comfortable, and less inconvenient routes. — See 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9

This is from the above mentioned minitools.com page. How ironic that it’s being used in defense of the PDC methodology!!


74. apreik
May 6, 2004
10:24 AM

Just reading through some of the comments… This isn’t really PDL/PDC related but more toward the people that suggest a pastor is in the wrong for staying a course.

There has to be a balance. I am not a pastor, nor do I play one on TV, however it is plain that as a leader you have to make desicions and stick with them. If you are pleasing everybody, than you are probably doing something wrong.

Someone is going to complain that the music is too fast. Someone else will complain that the music is too slow. You feel led to lead the church North, but others will want to go South or East. I suggest that it is better to lose some of the nay-sayers and keep the direction that God is calling you to keep. The church will be healthier as it will actually be moving in a direction, and the nay-sayers should be happier in a church that is heading where they think it should be going.

We (The wife and I) weren’t super excited about the PDL campaign. We love our pastor and our church however, so rode it out and guess what… It helped some people! If anything, it got more people involved in small group Bible study! The campaign is long gone and we have more people studying the Bible in people’s homes!

Yes… churches have gone the wrong way and have hurt many people in them. I am not suggesting that we just watch a church go down in smoke… Knee jerking from something because it is big and popular is also wrong though. Just examine why you feel the way you do.

From what I saw, there were some outlines that the pastor could use for sermons and such. Ours, kinda’ followed some ideas, but with his own scripture and ideas. I don’t think however, that the materials were for any longer than the 40 days. It’s not like these churches will be preaching Rick Warren’s messages like good little robots for years to come.

Once again, I wasn’t crazy about the PDL campaign, but I can at least see where it benefited our church and people’s lives.


75. Jeri
May 6, 2004
12:16 PM

“…the people that suggest a pastor is in the wrong for staying a course…”

I think any biblically-informed Christian would encourage their pastor to stay a course, even an unpopular one, if they believed it was the right course. The problems with programs like PDL and Wild at Heart are much more serious than music volume. The authors of those books undermine and by-pass the authority of Scripture by mis-interpreting and mis-applying it.


76. apreik
May 6, 2004
12:29 PM

Like I said, we (The wife and I)weren’t crazy about the idea of the PDL campaign. However, God used it and I have seen where it has benefitted people in our church.

It is good to see critical readers. I like to think of myself as one… I won’t throw out the baby with the bath water though, and condemn a whole book, program or whatever for some human flaws. There is good solid Biblical principal in the book. [*insert common sense so no replies of, “So if a book talks about Christ but than talks about devil worship being viable, we should read those too?”*]

There are some mis-applied Scriptures in PDL. I bet there are some books where one would say a Scripture is mis-applied where one simply disagrees with the interpretation. Anyway… I’ll await the perfect devotional type book. ;)


77. Shelley
May 6, 2004
12:31 PM

apreik said:

I don’t think however, that the materials were for any longer than the 40 days. It’s not like these churches will be preaching Rick Warren’s messages like good little robots for years to come.

I do so wish you were right, but there is the follow-up course Doing Life Together which is PDL all over again, only stretched out over a period of nine months. As for preaching Rick Warren’s messages for years to come, check this out at the PDC support site Pastors.com - http://forums.pastors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=15819


78. apreik
May 6, 2004
12:38 PM

Ok, well I can stand corrected. This is why I said, “I don’t think…” :) :P I am glad that we are not doing the extended version… I am also glad for the good things that came out if it.


79. Shelley
May 7, 2004
12:10 PM

Spiritual gold!! This discernment site is rich with information, not only about the Church Growth Movement, but other ‘waves’ as well. WARNING! Only visit when you have a free hour or two to spare. It’s fascinating…

http://www.erwm.com/WhatsNew.htm


80. Charity
May 8, 2004
7:51 PM

Susan..thanks for caring…Apr…I am not to
question the validity of how things turned out
with your church…just speaking from my own
experience it has been a very destructive
and damaging program….when switching to a purpose driven church….trust me….the 40
days lasts forever….if you know what I mean..


81. Susan
May 8, 2004
9:37 PM

WHEN I’M PRAISING GOD
by Anita Corrine Donihue

MY CHURCH FAMILY

Father, I’m grateful to You for giving me my church family. I stand back and watch as they bustle about, always looking for ways to encourage each other. I can never keep up with the blessings I receive from my church family, the family of God.

When advice is needed, they are quick to listen and slow to offer opinions. When advice is given, it is fruitful, like shiny apples in a finely woven basket.

Brothers and sisters in Christ often share and encourage each other in God’s love. Tiny clusters of believers form, holding up needs in prayer. Cards and letters with encouraging words heal the downtrodden. True, growing believers never put one another down.

Thank You for the example they set for our young people and new Christians. Thank You for caution shown in lives so no one is caused to stumble. Thank you for older people “adopting” younger couples, for younger watching out for elderly. For prayers and praises given for each other, I am so thankful. Bless these helpers and prayer warriors, dear Lord.

Thank You for my priceless church family.

Hebrews 10:24-25
“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much more as you see the Day approaching.”

Only by sumitting to God and letting Him change us from the “inside” can this church come about.

GOD IS FAITHFUL!


82. Scott
May 14, 2004
10:54 AM

While I am not very knowledgeable about the Bible and it’s translations, I have not been able to get through this book. I bought it because of the hype, and it has recently joined my bookshelf, after my getting through about 16 days, over a month-long period.

You mentioned the repetition later in the book. I found that to be a turn-off early on. Also, the memory verses just never stuck with me. SOme of them just seem like they are forced into the chapters, just to have a verse.

I have also found this book to read more like a text book, which makes it difficult to get through, for me anyway. After a week, I got to the point where I would look at how long a day’s reading was before I started, just to see how many pages I would need to suffer through.

Maybe I didn’t give it enough of a chance, and maybe I’ll go back to it someday. We’ll see.

Thanks for the perspective. It was refreshing.


83. Ed
May 15, 2004
2:59 PM

I think what saddens me the most when reading so many negative comments is the attribution of both motives and ideas to Rick Warren that are clearly false. I guess many people are so afraid of someone using various translations that they panic when reading Rick’s book.

Folks we need to get a life here. Every translation is a TRANSLATION. The gospels show Jesus quoting the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew text) a great deal versus the Hebrew text. I wonder why? Perhaps because they knew that their audiences would identify with a Greek translation of the bible more than the Hebrew which they could not understand.

We are called to share about Christ, not hammer the technique of someone else in sharing Christ. Rick Warren (whom I do not personally know) has written a book to encourage the church toward that goal (For those who did not make it to the end go back & read the last section on evangelism). Instead of being critical, we should be applauding.

The five purposes are derived straight out of the book of Acts, so they are biblical at the foundation, not something Rick Warren made up.


84. Tim
May 15, 2004
3:45 PM

Ed - Two things. First, there is a difference between a translation and a paraphrase. Most people would be happy if Warren used accurate translations, but he often uses very poor paraphrases. Second, I beleive it is better not to use the Bible than to use it wrongly, and Warren uses it very, very poorly.


85. ScottyMac
May 15, 2004
8:22 PM

I can appreciate Ed’s concern of the various critique’s offered in this rather lengthy exchange of ideas. If it were simply a matter of whether or not the five purposes are in some manner or form found in the Bible, then we would have little upon which we base our disagreement. But to those who have lived in and through a PD church experience, there are deeper concerns. Many of those have already been expressed in this blog.

Despite how the five purposes have been worked into Mr. Warren’s church structure, there is arguably much that has been “made up” in the PD church. To me, the system devised for the church structure in Warren’s PD Church book stands in stark contrast to indepth study of the church as delineated in the New Testament. Few of us have called into question his motives or heart for the Lord. But many have taken upon themselves to be Bereans in this matter. To many, the writings of Warren have been weighed against the truth of Scripture, and been found wanting.

As regards the five purposes, I’ve wondered if they are not more of being symptoms than goals of the man who is passionate toward God. I’ve wondered also why Prayer is not considered as one of the five purposes. I believe it is conveniently tucked under one of the other headings. However, in Acts 2:42, it is listed as one of the four characteristics of the early church. In that same verse, we read that the early church was devoted to the apostle’s teaching. Many are concerned that the PD church seems a bit more preoccupied with the teachings of Warren then proclaiming the whole counsel of God.

One of the many weaknesses with the whole PD movement is the tendency to principlize and summarize the word of God into little spoon size bits. Both PD Church and PD Life are rife with trying to reduce biblical truth into a few major principles for living. If that was God’s choice for His word, He certainly could have economized better with paper and effort.

If the five purposes are indeed all found in the Book of Acts, then I suggest that the Purpose Driven books and plethora of materials are superfluous. Let’s cut out the middle man and go straight to the Bible.


86. James Manson
May 17, 2004
11:54 PM

Thank you so much for this powerful expose of the damaging church growth movement, PDC in particular. It is so encouraging to know there are still many other sincere Christians who love the Lord and cling to His word as Truth and who are willing to stand up and be counted, even to the point of being ostracized and persecuted. My wife and I have lived this trauma personally, but we are now in a solid church after spending almost thirty and forty years respectively in an old established church that slowly grew liberal in its practice and perverted in its pulpit. Again, I say thanks and praise to God for others out there who understand. May He grant the gift of discernment to thousands more blinded “Christians.”


87. Susan
May 20, 2004
9:14 PM

This is to Charity,
I just had to write and find out how you are doing? I am still holding you up in prayer. :-)

Our new plant church is “in the Word” for Sunday School (for children & adults), Sunday Morning and Evening Services and Wednesday Night Prayer. What a difference!

My prayer continues to be that God will “Open Eyes” and help people see that there is no satisfaction found outside of a “daily, personal” relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

GOD IS FAITHFUL!


88. dopderbeck
May 21, 2004
10:10 AM

When I read the book, I felt it was a nice, contemporary discussion of priorities and spiritual disciplines. In short: your first priority should be to glorify God, your highest purpose is to bring others into His kingdom, and you begin to cultivate Christlikeness through personal purity, prayer and Bible study. I didn’t have the impression the book was presenting some kind of gimicky formula, ala “The Prayer of Jabez.”

I agree with the criticism that Warren uses scripture out of context. But, I don’t think that the book is unbilical as a whole. In fact, the themes I identify above I think are profoundly Biblical.

As with any devotional resource, the reader needs to approach it with balance and discernment. My church is doing a “40 days” campaign now and I think is doing it well. The Pastor modifies the sermons as he feels appropriate (even to the point, last week, of emphasizing that no book or program other than the Bible itself is authoritative for our belief and practice) and there are some good home Bible studies going on.


89. Shelley
May 21, 2004
10:26 AM

Dopderbeck, here are a couple of excerpted paragraphs from an article which addresses the points you have raised:

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent53.htm

Is the Change that has come over the Church, come over you?

We have all heard the statement “eat the meat and spit out the bones,” but only the mature can discern good from evil. What parent would feed a new child a fish with bones and expect it to know what to do. This is not a good answer for the newborn, weak or immature in faith. Only the mature can do this and even the mature cannot discern the cleverness of things disguised. Each person needs to know what the biblical line is and make up his or her mind and not compromise by going over it.

Certain Scriptures are used as proof-texts for aberrant doctrines and to promote a lie. Feel good sermons that boost ones morale and self-esteem and worthiness are the order of the day. We forget Satan does not make people feel bad, but has them feel good to deceive them, as he comes as an angel of light.


90. dopderbeck
May 21, 2004
11:03 AM

Thanks, Shelly, but I don’t think that link addresses my points at all. What I said was that, despite some faulty exegesis in some places, Warren’s principles in PDL generally are Bibically sound. That’s a far cry from saying that we might draw a nugget of truth from teaching that is fundamentally Bibically unsound.

Everything we do in a local church is mediated by people. People deliver sermons, teach sunday school classes, lead music, etc. People are inherently sinful and imperfect. Therefore, nothing we ever do in a local church will be perfect. As believers who accept the Reformed doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, we always have to be prepared to “eat the meat and spit out the bones.” This doesn’t mean we condone false teaching; it just means that a dose of realism is required to function as part of the body in a local church.


91. Susan
May 21, 2004
12:25 PM

Dear dopderbeck,

Every bit of God’s Word can be trusted. Why settled for “second best”?


92. dopderbeck
May 21, 2004
1:59 PM

Susan,

If I follow your reasoning, I’d have to say that we should do nothing at the local church other than open the Bible, read it aloud without any commentary, and then go home. Actually even that wouldn’t work — we’d have to read in the original languages. And yet even that wouldn’t work — we’d have to read from the original autographs. And even if we had the original autographs, that wouldn’t work — we’d have to have some guide as to which of the writings are canonical and which aren’t. What I’m suggesting isn’t a matter of not trusting God’s word, it’s simply a recognition that God works in the local church through imperfect people.


93. Susan
May 21, 2004
2:12 PM

I want to re-ephasize my last comment.

Why settle for anything but “THE BEST”?

Hebrews 4:12 states “For the Word of God is LIVING and POWERFUL, and SHARPER THAN ANY TWO-EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the division of the soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Here’s a wonderful song many of us remember learning in Sunday School.
The B-I-B-L-E
Yes, that’s the book for me.
I stand alone on the word of God.
The B-I-B-L-E.

It’s more real today, than when I first learned it, because GOD’S WORD has been PROVEN TRUE!

Sadly, God’s Word has not been represented accurately in Mr. Warren’s book. This is why many of us have come out in opposition to it. We have also seen the destruction that the methodology wreaks on churches. Yes, I said WREAKS!

Methodology over the LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Pragmatism over LOVE.
VCR Tapes over OPEN BIBLES.

Ah, but GOD IS FAITHFUL!


94. Juan M. Radziwiluk
May 23, 2004
6:27 PM

Now, if I can take any kind of music of the world and put some “Jesus” liriks or how they are oftenly called “Christian Words”, will make that song Christian? or Holy to God?!
My question is then, if I take a group of Christian girls form my church and take them to a night club and make them strip dance, to atract people to preach them the Gospel….will that work to Mr Warren…you will not put your wife in from on the streets to dance naked to atract a group of people to preach them the message of salvation, will you?
I might sound a little hard with this example, but is the same thing than making a rock concert with hevy rock music that have some “Jesus-I-praise-you” words to get the attentio of the people to give them the Gospel.
Sometimes I wonder what will the reaction of Jesus will be in a situation like this if he was here on earth today. Do you think he will do the same thing he did when he came into the temple and saw all the people selling and makeing business in his holy temple…
think about it, you cannot mix darkenss and light.


95. dopderbeck
May 24, 2004
10:55 AM

Juan — how exactly is the musical style of rock music equivalent to dancing naked ladies? I don’t get it. And, if we follow this logic, we’ll need to do away with most of the “great old hymns” we love so much — many of the tunes to those hymns were derived from popular driking songs of the day. (The original tune to “O Sacred Head Now Wounded,” for example, was for a song called “I’m crying in my beer stein.”)

As for Jesus’ reaction, you might be right about the commercialism of the Christian music industry. As to the style of music, however, I think you’re dead wrong. Jesus preached using examples and metaphors from the everyday lives of the people to whom he ministered, and stood against the trappings of “religion” at that time. Just ask the Pharisees about Jesus’ tolerance for adherence to old, empty formalisms.


96. Shelley
May 24, 2004
11:29 AM

Here is the history of ‘O Sacred Head…’
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/s/osacredh.htm
I see no mention of beer steins ;p

No one is defending old empty formalisms, but I know lots of people who are very unhappy over the NEW empty formalisms of Sutherland, Hybels, Warren et. al.


97. ScottyMac
May 24, 2004
2:37 PM

Juan’s logic is not elusive, though I personally have no issues with contemporary worship. It appears that he is taking issue with the foundational practice of the ‘seeker friendly’ church in trying to attract the world to church. Perhaps he is challenging the ‘end justifies the means’ approach that is often used in these churches. If that is not his argument, then I beg his forgiveness for misrepresentation.

Even if he is not taking up that argument, I shall. There is no biblcial precedence for creating a church or church service intended to attract the lost souls in the world. There is no biblical teaching encouraging pastors to shun teaching the word in favor of messages intended to be practical, positive, and relevant. Those that do are violating the teaching of I Corinthians 2:1-5.

I find it fascinating that in both Paul and Peter’s last written words before their deaths, they exhibited a considerably passionate plea to the church. These pleas are as relevant today as they were then. (2 Timothy 4:1-5 and 2 Peter 3) These are not words of instruction to the church to attract the masses.


98. dopderbeck
May 24, 2004
4:12 PM

Actually Shelly, that’s not a complete history of the hymn, because it doesn’t give the history of the tune. The tune came much later than the hymn, and is in fact derived from a German drinking song and a “secular” love song. See http://www.reporterinteractive.org/news/031004/hy031004.htm for a reference to the love song. I heard the reference regarding the driking song on a radio show, and I’ll try to find a written reference to it.

Interestingly, the words from which the text of the hymn are derived were penned by Bernard of Clairvoix, a Catholic monk who lived in the 12th Century. So, if you love that old hymn, you are adopting sentiments of a person who in many other respects you probably would consider exegetically unsound and theologically suspect.

ScottyMac: “There is no biblical precedence for creating a church or church service intended to attract the lost souls in the world.” I think you are overlooking the Great Commission. Yes, I know the Great Commission isn’t itself concerned with the forms of how we do church. It certainly does, however, provide the imperative to win lost souls to Christ.

I think that point is overlooked in this debate: “contemporary” church movements are often missiological. The idea of “contextualizing” the gospel so that it can be understood by a target people group is not novel. Missionaries have been doing it for generations. I agree that it’s a grave error to contextualize in such a way that the message itself is distorted. Again, however, the presence of some bad examples doesn’t make the case against contextualization itself. In fact, you can’t do missions or evangelism at all without contextualizing the message.


99. Shelley
May 24, 2004
5:28 PM

Care to give a few examples of good contextulizing? I think we agree about the bad ones, such as calling our sins ‘mistakes’, or depicting God as a being who is biting his nails over whether you’ll do him a big favor and except his free offer of salvation.


100. dopderbeck
May 24, 2004
6:47 PM

The classic example of contextualization is in scripture itself: Paul’s sermon on Mars Hill. Here is a relevant link: http://pages.preferred.com/~mdepew/mis1.html


101. dopderbeck
May 24, 2004
9:13 PM

More on O Sacred Head Now Wounded: the complete translated secular lyrics that originally went with the tune: http://www.sfbach.org/repertoire/meingmuth.html

I don’t see anything about the beer stein; I had heard that on Peter Shickele’s radio show, Shickele Mix. Regardless, the tune obviously originated as, in its day, a “pop” love song.


102. ScottyMac
May 25, 2004
11:30 AM

“I think you are overlooking the Great Commission”

Oh, not at all. I totally agree that we as believers are to go into the world and preach the gospel. That is precisely the point…we are commanded to go into the world. The PD church methodology reverses that command and asks the world to come unto it. It seeks to attract the world by trying to eliminate what it would see as hinderances to why people avoid church. But getting people to church to hear the gospel is not what the great commission is all about, nor what Paul so diligently teaches throughout his epistles regarding the role of the church.

As for the “hinderances”, I have no issues with churches utilizing contemporary worship or choosing other style ‘preferences’ that may deviate from traditional stylistic forms. My issue is with their choice to deviate from declaring the whole counsel of God in teaching the Word, in preference to shallow teaching to attract the crowd.

It presupposes that their methodology and not God’s word through illumination of the Holy Spirit draws men to Jesus. Such arrogance flies in the face of Paul’s admonition in 2 Corinthians 2:4-5,
“And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God”.(NAS)

Most churches today have ceased to proclaim the whole counsel of God by teaching the word. Instead, they have opted for positive topical messages to attract the crowd. Of course, the PD church along with other CGM institutions proclaim that indepth teaching takes place in the context of the small group. In referencing their own materials, the church structure is designed to slowly draw people into mature Christianity (around the baseball diamond, or into the core of the circle).

Aside from having no biblical basis, this strategy is often not what it proclaims itself to be. Having endured a PD church for several years, and been involved with small groups that utilize Warren’s study guides, I can say that the teaching in that context remains shallow. Warren proclaims that we are to adopt contemporary means without compromising our message. But compromise he does in acts of commission by misusing scripture to promote his methodology, and acts of ommission by failing to teach the whole counsel of God.

Time will fail me if I attempt to introduce many other misguided and unbiblical features of the PD church such as their system and training in membership, church unity, campaigns, commercialism, books, materials, and other systems disigned to circumvent the truth that it is Jesus who builds the church and Jesus through the Holy Spirit who draws men unto Himself. The whole of this complex system does not resemble the simplicity of the operation of the church as outlined in the New Testament. It assumes the burden of being under law, that if ‘such and such’ is done, then ‘such and such’ will happen.

It does not surprise me that the church is so willing to enter into compromise. We have grown accustomed to following prey to the methods and marketing of men in regards to the church and our spirituality. This won’t stop with either the Purpose Driven church or Purpose Driven Life. No doubt, the sequel is being planned. No doubt, another writer envious of Warren’s success is planning his own strategy for the Christian and the church.

It is sad and it is devastating. The reliance on methodology presumes that the Bible is insufficient, and that somehow our culture demands something more than the mere word of God. It concludes that for the church to be successful, it must adopt the complex systems of corporate America. It fails to acknowledge that only Jesus builds the church. It looks at Peter’s discourse in Acts 2 when 3,000 were saved, and analyzes his methods and strategy. It fails to take into account the faithfulness of simply proclaiming His word, and then watching the Holy Spirit draw people to Christ.


103. Jeri
May 25, 2004
12:41 PM

Thank you, ScottyMac, that was beautifully said. Like you, I see that when the Bible isn’t fully taught from the pulpit, then small group materials are also not carefully evaluated and can be all over the board. I can’t see any way that this does not reflect too low a view of the authority and supremacy of Scripture from the leadership of the church.


104. dopderbeck
May 25, 2004
4:35 PM

ScottyMac, thanks for a thoughtful post. I don’t necessarily disagree with you about some of the specific methods of “purpose driven” or “seeker sensitive” churches, and in particular I agree with your emphasis the need for robust expository teaching. But, I still think there’s a missiological nugget here that’s worth saving.

In particular, I strongly disagree with your assessment of church planting as not “going into the world” but instead reversing the Great Commission and asking the world to come to the church. Church planting is a widely and historically used missiological tool. Your critique could applied to the tiny house churches started by pioneer missionaries in Muslim countries as easily as it applies to “postmodern” churches in U.S. cities. I think that goes too far.

And just one other aside — for all the rhetoric here about fidelity to scripture, the reference to an “admonition” in 2 Corinthians 2:4-5 is particularly misplaced. It’s actually 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, it’s not an “admonition” but rather a description of Paul’s conduct among the Corinthians, and in the context of 1 Cor. 1:10 through the remainder of chapter 2 and into chapter 3, it’s clear that the passage relates to disputes in the Corinthian church arising from claims by some other preachers (e.g., Apollos and Cephas) of superiority over Paul. The passage, then, is about unity and humility within the church fellowship. It has nothing to do with methodology.


105. Ruth
May 25, 2004
4:58 PM

To: Matt Costella, Jim Bednar and all the Pharisees who have had their say:

Isn’t criticism easy?
What are YOU doing to “evangelize the 21st century culture”?
How does your venom help anyone to live a more Christlike life?

Ruth


106. Bob
May 25, 2004
5:31 PM

I agree with much of the criticism of PDL, though some of the talk of Warren taking over your church seems a little alarmist. Nevertheless, I don’t see why anyone would want to use a resource that has so many frequent mis-uses of Scripture. At one point in the video series for home groups Warren says, “God is going to build your character by putting you through everything Jesus went through.” Yes, that’s what he says in week 4. After I hear something like that, I wonder why bother sorting through this mishmash in order to pluck out the occasional routine truth. Mature Christians don’t need it, and young ones cannot be expected to have the discernment to sort it out.
As someone else said above, the only really good thing about it is that it makes you hunger all the more for the pure Word.


107. ScottyMac
May 25, 2004
6:36 PM

I’m glad we found some common ground to agree, Dopderbeck. Maybe there is more than you think. I must be missing your reference to church planting, because I don’t see where I mentioned that. My whole point was aimed at the modern CGM churches that are compromising the teaching of scripture and creating a type of church that attempts to attract the unbeliever to them. That is all…I’m not suggesting that missions or church planting are wrong. To me, those are legitimate expressions of the Great Commission to go and make disciples.

Again, my argument is addressed primarily to the CGM and PD churches that fail to preach the word in an attempt to emphasize the positive attributes of coming to God, saying nothing of sin, repentance, grace, or other key doctrines of the faith. To obscure the difficult parts of scripture to keep people comfortable and build a church seems a bit deceptive. Perhaps we agree on this.

We remain in disagreement on I Corinthians, as I believe a close examination of the first two chapters says much about the weakness of man’s methodology. Paul is establshing the superiority of God’s wisdom and power with respect to salvation, contrasted with the inferiority of man’s wisdom. Just because Paul was directly addressing a division within the Corinthian church does not undermine the fact that he is revealing his heart in ministry. We can attribute practically every passage in scripture to a particular event in time and space, germane to the recipients of the letter. Yet, we as Christian establish our doctrine from these letters.

It seems entirely possible from I Corinthians 2 that one’s faith can rest upon the wisdom of men and not on the power of God. With the emphasis of methodology, motivational messages, and persuasive teaching within the 21st century church, it seems entirely possible that we are witnessing a faith that is resting upon the wisdom of men. With even some of Warren’s proponents admitting that he misuses scripture to establish his PD methodology, it is difficult for me to conclude otherwise.

The following quotes are located on the cover of Purpose Driven Life:

“In the traditions of Oswald Chambers, Rick Warren offers distilled wisdom on the essence of what life is all about”.

“…Rick Warren’s new, groundbreaking manifesto will set millions of people free to live the lives God intended.”

“If you only read one book on what life is all about — make it this one!”

“…Rick Warren has written a masterpiece of wise counsel for you.”

Seems like Warren’s wisdom is being a bit elevated here. Thanks, but its not what I care to pursue.


108. matt h.
May 25, 2004
9:10 PM

Good discussion here - I have been through the PD paradigm, even working on staff at a church that recently won a “PD Church Health Award.” And I can tell you that the church is anything but healthy - yes, large numbers are showing up on Sundays and are involved in a mountain of programs, but it really is not even a church. Is the Word faithfully preached? No not really - it’s more of the self-actualizing “pseudo-Christian” teaching that slices and dices the Bible. Are the sacraments faithfully administered? No - baptisms rarely take place and the Lord’s Supper is done in an irreverent manner with no fencing of the table. Church discipline? Forget about it. So how is an organization that fails to meet the historical marks of the true church (as the Reformers set out) to be deemed “healthy”?

I don’t doubt that Warren loves God - but my fear is that he is an excellent example of how an unbiblical theology can have horrible consequences if given a large platform. Yes there are huge numbers affected by the PD movement, but sheer volume is not a mark of orthodoxy - just look at Charles Finney and the huge success he found with his poor theology! It seems that Warren (like most evangelicals) has been too easily influenced by Finney’s revivalism and has resorted to the “whatever it take to hook ‘em” mentality.


109. Jeri
May 27, 2004
11:42 AM

I think Ellen’s comments are very important. We are wary of “conspiracy theories” but when you really think deeply and Biblically about it, you realize that schemes and conspiracies are Satan’s thing. The Old Testament prophets were accused of being “nutty” when they pronounced God’s word…warnings that seemed to fly in the face of the way things appeared to be.


110. Brett
May 27, 2004
11:25 PM

I have just been reading some of the comments above and even on other sites and it has really brought to my attention that this little book has caused so much division and hurt amongst fellow Christians. Immediately it highlighted one verse of Scripture in Romans 16:17 “Now I beseech you, brethen, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (KJV)

Now, we know that certian Christian leaders always use this verse to intimidate discerning believers who make any sort of judgement toward teachers who preach another Gospel by claiming that we are the ones causing the division. But the above verse always suggest to me that it is the individual who brings in these certain doctrines or philosophies (Purpose Drive Life) who cause the division and that we should have nothing to do with them.

An old commenatry from RL Whiteside quoted “Do not shut your eyes to what they are doing, nor make excurses for them, nor for any others who cause divisions and occassions if stumbling contrary to the gospel, but turn away from them. This means that the brethen should have no fellowship with them”

Q. Is Rick Warren causing this division I see before my eyes or are the discerning believers causing the division?


111. ScottyMac
May 28, 2004
11:50 AM

Klenck’s articles were among the first I read when I began to investigate the PD movement. He has many good things to say. It is difficult to evaluate all the issues he raises, though I cannot deny that his arguments sound plausible. As I continued my research, I felt led to focus more on the biblical contrasts to Warren’s PD church, as opposed to the potential underlying sinister philosophical issues that Klenck raised.

Perhaps I decided that I’m not smart enough to figure that part of it out, or perhaps just unwilling to dig into the research. Whatever the reason, I remain most burdened by the digression of the modern church from biblical foundation into the ever-changing sea of methodology. Satan will always be ready to utilize anyone who is willing to produce a new deception upon the church, unwittingly or not. I don’t necessarily regard all such people as intentionally trying to deceive the church per se. Perhaps ego, financial gain, or just a strong desire to share their own pragmatic experiences are to blame.

We should all guard our hearts against deception, knowing that any heart that strays from the truth and sufficiency of God’s word is capable of introducing strange doctrine.


112. REY
June 3, 2004
3:21 PM

Excellent. Just read through this and I find your overview astounding. Good job, sir. Honest and viewing the entire book through the Measure of the Bible.

Excellent!


113. plum
June 4, 2004
10:22 PM

Please… don’t throw stones at me for my personal opinion. I only got as far as day 17, struggling each day with the words from Rick’s book. Since many of the verses were used in a manner that was untrue, again, my opinion, I did not have “peace” about what was being said. I offer no explanation beyond that of the struggle. I found myself having to look up each passage, especially those quoted from The Message bible. This made a study of the book a horrible experience. I prayed extensively during that time and, unable to find a reprieve for my weakness in being able to accept Rick Warren’s mis-use of Scripture, I finally told God that I could not continue… it did not make sense to struggle each day with this book, and I was able to regain my peace. I wrote an email to my group leader and told him that I would be unable to continue and briefly stated my reasons… a lack of peace.

Don’t take me wrong, I see some tremendous “good” that is resulting from others who are following the 40-Day plan. And, although the review speaks well of this, and even states Rick to be a godly man, I sometimes wonder about a more sinister ploy of the evil one… what would he say about misusing Scripture and misquoting it? You can read all about his methods in Genesis.

But stop! I am not suggesting, even in the slightest… I’m only wondering… and quite humbly mind you.

But the good is undeniable. People are coming to the church. Now it’s time to share the Gospel with them and maybe, by God’s marvelous grace, some of them may come to accept the true Christ and be saved!

You seem to be a great group of people out there in cyberland. Please forgive me for even hinting…. But also please consider the possibility of the hint… then go ahead beat on me, if you want.

Thanks for this forum to express myself.


114. Melissa
June 5, 2004
2:05 PM

As a “christian” leader called by God Rick Warren is responsible for leading by the word of God.
What is going on???????????
I wanted to post some info discovered on Rick
Warren and others. The problems with his teachings go deeper then PDL.

It is the schedule for the National Pastors Convention 2004.
http://www.nationalpastorsconvention.com/sched/sandiego/full.php.

Notice everyday starts with Labyrinth
http://www.letusreason.org/Nam30.htm.

Session 1 Brennan Manning (christian mystic)Rick
warren quotes in PDL and promotes his books..
Contemplative (centering prayer) daily.

Thursday March 11 Stretching & Yoga and Rick Warren Speaker.
This is a huge web of deception.
Series 2 Gary Thomas also Warren promotes
March 12 and 13 Yoga
As I continue to share the truth of God’s word I am thankful to Him that there are others He has shown this falsehood to.

This conference is sponsored by Zondervan, Leadership and Youth Specialties.
click
click
( pictures from convention

Visit the Youth Specialties Web site!
INFO FOUND ON THIS WEBSITE
click

Labyrinth - designed for young and old alike, the
labyrinth provides a mixture of rituals and visuals, of contemplative words and contemporary ambient music, of symbols and media to help guide the spiritual traveller.

Accepting the Embrace of God: The Ancient Art of
Lectio Divina - information, examples and thoughts onthe prayer technique known as lectio divina, a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God.

Rick Warren co-authored a book with Dan Kimball

Emerging Church, The
by Dan Kimball, Rick Warren, Brian D. McLaren

Rick Warren says, This book is a wonderful detailed example of what a Purpose-Driven church can look like in a postmodern world. My friend, Dan Kimball, writes passionately from his heart, with a deep desire to reach emerging generations and culture. While my book the Purpose-Driven Church, explained what the church is called to do, Dan’s book explains how to do it with the cultural-creatives who think and feel in postmodern terms. You need to pay attention to him because times are changing.
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?ID=109

Dan Kimball explains his experience on the Labyrinth at the convention.
http://www.vintagefaith.com/the_emerging_church.html

“The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New
Generations”

A–maze–ing Prayer
The labyrinth offers ancient meditation for today’s
hurried souls.

Dan Kimball

Coming in from the brilliant San Diego sunshine, my
wife and I entered a darkened hall lit only by candles
and a dimmed chandelier. The room was silent. As our
eyes adjusted, we saw several people kneeled in
prayer. The setting, spirit, and solemn stillness of
the hall told us that we had found something
meditative there, something spiritual.

Today’s evangelicals are accustomed to
well-choreographed worship services with every minute
carefully filled with music, video, and preaching.
Postmodern generations are hungering for something
more—an unhurried, mystery-filled, meditative
experience that doesn’t have to fit into a preplanned
time schedule.
The prayer labyrinth offers a feast to fill that
hunger.

Meeting God in the middle
The labyrinth is a maze-like path similar to those
designed into the floors of European cathedrals during
the Middle Ages. Christians of that time would walk
the labyrinth to aid their contemplative prayer and
reflection. The labyrinths fell into disuse, and most
were eventually forgotten or destroyed.

At the National Pastors Conference in San Diego,
however, we found the labyrinth was back and given an
update. The path was formed by black lines on a
35-foot square piece of canvas laid on the floor. We
each were given a CD player with headphones to guide
our journey through the 11 stations on the path. As we
began the inward journey—toward the center of the
canvas—a gentle female voice with a British accent
read a portion of John 1. She told us not to rush
through the labyrinth, but to slow down, breathe
deeply, and fully focus on God.

At the first stop, we looked at a television screen
covered with complex, moving electronic wave forms. We
were instructed to pray about and eliminate the noise
within that interferes with God’s voice. At another
station we dropped small stones into water, each stone
representing a worry we were giving over to God. Later
we drew on paper symbols of our hurts, prayed about
each of them, and put them in a trash can.

After thirty minutes we found ourselves at the
labyrinth’s center, where, seated on cushions, we were
offered the elements of Communion. The narrator read
more Scripture and reminded us how near Jesus Christ
is to us. There was a Bible if we desired to linger,
reading and praying.

The journey outward focused on how we can be used by
God in other people’s lives. At one station we made
impressions of our hands and feet in a box of sand,
reminding us that we leave impressions on the people
we touch.
My wife and I spent an hour in the labyrinth and found
ourselves calmed and refreshed, our perspective
uniquely restored.

We made our own prayer path
After the convention we knew we couldn’t keep this
experience to ourselves. A few months later we
featured a labyrinth as part of Graceland’s annual art
event at Santa Cruz Bible Church.

Graceland artists recreated the labyrinth with a kit
we purchased (The Prayer Path, Group Publishing),
transforming one of the church’s multipurpose rooms
into a medieval prayer sanctuary. The team hung art on
the walls, draped fabric, and lit candles all around
the room to create a visual sense of sacred space.
Over two nights we saw more than 100 people go through
the labyrinth. It was a joy to see so many people on
their knees communing with God through the
experiential prayer elements.

Meditative prayer like that we experienced in the
labyrinth resonates with hearts of emerging
generations. If we had the room, we would set up a
permanent labyrinth to promote deeper prayer. Until
then, however, Graceland will continue to incorporate
experiential prayer and encourage our people to stop,
quiet themselves, and pray.

Dan Kimball pastors Graceland, the ministry and
worship services for the emerging culture at Santa
Cruz Bible Church in Santa Cruz, California.
Copyright © 2001 by the author or Christianity Today,
Inc./Leadership journal..
Fall 2001, Vol. 23, No. 4, Page 38

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/paradigm/index.htm (Link from youth specialties) Beware

In Christ Service,
Melissa Harvey
Brenning Manning
http://www.reachingcatholics.org/beware.html
Gary Thomas http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/0000/9paths.htm


115. Anonymous
June 19, 2004
6:20 AM

Leo Van Veelen from Australia
I have read the book and I have find that the book will gain you a very balaced life the bible dose say seek first the kingdom of god and all these things will be added unto you.
That is what Rick Warren is saying in has book the Purpose Driven life I enjoyed the challengs in the book and if you dear give Jesus all your life and dont go back to the old life.


116. Anonymous
June 19, 2004
6:21 AM

Leo Van Veelen from Australia
I have read the book and I have find that the book will gain you a very balaced life the bible dose say seek first the kingdom of god and all these things will be added unto you.
That is what Rick Warren is saying in has book the Purpose Driven life I enjoyed the challengs in the book and if you dear give Jesus all your life and dont go back to the old life.


117. Paul
June 21, 2004
12:37 AM

Dear Tim,

I would suggest reading something about Mother Teresa and St. John of the Cross before making any blanket statements that they are not trusted Christian sources. Search www.catholic.com for some good examples of reading material.

In fact, I would also study the 8th commandment “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor” before calling anyone a “non-trusted” Christian source.

Sincerely in Christ,

Paul


118. Anonymous
July 7, 2004
6:37 PM

your comment is so short-sighted and it is NOT helpful at all! Hope you will learn to evaluate the content from where he is coming from! NOT in your own view point. yOU CANNOT COMMENT LIKE THIS LINE UPON LINE. yOU HAVE TO SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE AND IT’S REAL INTENTION!


119. Charity
July 14, 2004
10:54 AM

For Susan,
Do you have an email addy?

I have left my former church and have made up
my mind I cannot look back but look ahead..
it has been a heart breaking experience but
God has been good and I know He has been the one
guiding me all the way….I just feel badly for
the ones who are left in the church…and am
praying God will reveal to them what they have
to do…

Sorry for not being in touch for a long time..
but there has been so much going on..

God bless…
Charity


120. James Sundquist
July 20, 2004
5:53 PM

Dear Susan,

I am very grateful for your Susan at February 3, 2004 11:36 PM opposing the teachings of Rick Warren. I thought you would be interested in my Purpose Driven Chart vs. Scripture which you can access at:

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html

I also thought you might like to know that I will be releasing a book which is a documentary exposing the false teachings, false translations, and false teachers Rick Warren promotes in his book. It will be published by Southwest Radio Church and should be available in print in a matter of weeks. However, in the meantime, I wanted to send you a complimentary review copy as a file attachment. If you would like a copy just email at rock.salt@verizon.net as I note your email is not posted on this website.

Kindest regards in Christ,

James Sundquist
President
Rock Salt Publishing


121. pat
July 26, 2004
11:46 AM

PDL was the worst book I have ever read and I think it will cause long term problems in the church. The more I read of it, the more I was agitated. My God is a good God, not one waiting to strike you with something bad. This book is a bad influence on the body of Christ.


122. Gina
August 6, 2004
3:48 AM

I have read all of the above comments. The church where we have been members for two years just recently completed 40 days. A friend passed on some info about the deception involved in the PDL. My husband became convicted of some of the errors contained in the book, did research, and met with the pastor concerning his research. He also discussed with the pastor the way he was teaching things that contradicted long held beliefs and doctrines of our denomination, secrecy in the church as it related to deciding to use 40 days, and secrecy of the church’s financial records. He gave the pastor copies of his research. This included the following:
http://www.moriel.org/discernment/purpose_driven_church.htm

http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Books_D/Rick_Warren.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm

The pastor was receptive to receiving them and was very cordial—seeming genuinely concerned that he might have used a flawed program. Imagine our surprise three weeks later (in a Sunday morning sermon preached prior to our youth minister going through a skit like performance about building and then calling the finance chairman up to present a building program that fewer than 10 people being aware of—secrecy again)the pastor announced that we were a PDC. (We have since purchased the book and recognize all the markings and also got an explanation as to why the pastor had changed his ways of doing things over the past few years. This included style of music, little communication with deacons, committees making decisions without going to the church body, and financial records kept secret.) Shortly there after the pastor called and asked my husband for a meeting. When he went into the pastor’s office (without him being aware that others would be involved) immediately behind him came the youth minister, associate pastor, and a deacon. He was questioned about giving out some info that was critical of PDC and PDl. He had given one deacon an article that recounted a person’s visit to Saddleback and another person some of web site listings of other articles relating PDC and PDL. My husband related his concerns letting them know that he could think for himself and told them that he would not “drink the cool-aid” (a reference to a Jim Jones.) Before the confrontation was over the pastor told him that by giving out the materials,he was sowing discord among the brethern and he should “stop it or leave the church”. After thinking about it briefly, my husband told them he would leave the church. He had previously made the determination that he would not stay in an apostate church so my husband’s telling them he would leave was not all that difficult. But as everyone can see this appears to be an example of the way a Rick Warren trained follower would deal with a resister. Also, going on at the church is the proposed building project that was mentioned earlier. The building and finance committees came to the church with inadequate plans with the chairman insisting that he had contacted all ministries involved to assess the needs. This proved to not be the truth unless he simply contacted the pastor who is a member of every committee. The older “pillars of the church” insisted on better planning with use of an architect while the younger members were gungho to go forward at the committee recommendation. The pastor seemed to aware of the serious division which was obovious to all would lead to a split in the church. He made little effort to ease the situation or to ask for a delay in the voting which is scheduled for next Sunday morning. This disregard and disrespect permitted by the pastor almost leads one to believe that this will be the pastor’s chance to get rid of the outnumbered “pillars”. They will not be staying in a church where their expertise is ignored and are only wanted for their funds. This is another way of getting rid of resisters—pitting one group against another.


123. Chris Smith
August 10, 2004
2:05 AM

Pastor,

You recently asked what was “happening with us.” I told you about His blessing, but not about the rest.

A number of months ago a church (historically stalwart in the faith) we were visiting, suddenly mandated that Sunday classes were to be suspended for approximately forty days. During that time everyone was to participate in the study of a popular “purpose driven” paperback. Rather than delve into the hope and joy and beauty of His Word, our challenge was to affirm a book by a “mere” man, and a rather pudgy one at that.

A few months ago a church (historically stalwart in the faith) we were visiting, suddenly mandated that Sunday classes were to be suspended for approximately forty days. During that time everyone was to participate in the study of a popular “purpose driven” paperback. Rather than learning of Him together from His Word, our challenge was to affirm a book by a “mere” man.

These two churches, each having heard the “Siren call,” marched in lockstep with a thousand other churches as the self proclaimed “Pied Piper of purpose” lead them away. “Purposefully” doing the “spiritually correct” thing each had opted for an unholy aberration of His Word and the inevitable accompaniment of confusion. They didn’t understand that there are two mutually exclusive ways of “doing church,” His Way or man’s way. The pastor of Saddleback, Inc. has convinced multitudes that his “way” is more contemporary, more savvy, more pragmatic, more loving, and of course, more popular than the other Way. The author of “purpose” has persuaded many that he has discovered mysteries that even “the Author and Finisher of our faith” has neglected to reveal. These two churches have apparently forgotten Judges, the book of spiritual confusion that sadly concludes: “every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”

Thankfully, there are those in our church who will forever reject that “Siren call.” They have the maturity to realize that something is wrong when His Word alone is never enough. And they are able to discern between the “Spirit of truth” and the “spirit of error” that manifests itself even in the flawed titles of Rick Warren’s work. They know that our “lives” MUST be “Spirit lead” not “purpose driven.” They know that our “church” MUST be “Spirit lead” not “purpose driven.”


Chris


124. Chris Smith
August 10, 2004
2:11 AM

Hostile Takeover: A generally reviled tactic in the business world of taking control of a company for personal advantage and divesting its assets without regard for that companies management, board of directors, shareholders, or workers.

Unfortunately, the Hostile Takeover has a counterpart in the evangelical world. Consider how Rick Warren has disenfranchised those who have labored a lifetime in their local assemblies.

“Be willing to let people leave the church. And I told you earlier the fact that people are gonna leave the church no matter what you do. But when you define the vision, you’re choosing who leaves. You say, “But Rick, yes, they’re the pillars of the church.” Now, you know what pillars are. Pillars are people who hold things up … And in your church, you may have to have some blessed subtractions before you have any real additions.”

Rick, through his books, conferences and simulcasts, is encouraging churches around the world to trash the gospel “once delivered” for his “new improved version” or as he calls it “vision.” And for those who oppose this gospel alien to His Word, he has a solution: make the place where we once worshipped our risen Lord so abominable that the Spirit within us will demand we leave.

A Rick Warren Takeover: What used to be a reviled tactic in the evangelical world of taking control of a local assembly for personal advantage and divesting its assets without regard for that church’s Lord, board of elders, shareholders in His Holiness, or fellow workers in the Truth.

Why is it that the world knows a “hostile takeover” when they see it, but those who call themselves “Christian” do not?

“…for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.” Luke 16:8


125. mac
August 14, 2004
5:46 PM

I first became aware of this book/fad/movement of R. Warren’s several months ago. During prayer one evening I received a Word on this movement —“Come out, come out of her my child or you will be consumed by the great Harlot. My Word alone is sufficient for all your needs.” This has been discussed twice with our pastor and others but it appears that the PDL program will proceed with all of its trappings including signed covenants of accountability. When it happens we will be seeking another church home.


126. Bookman
August 21, 2004
3:40 PM

Hmmmmmm,anyone who wants an interesting study should look into the beliefs and teachings of men like Dallas Willard ,stephen Foster,Carl Jung,William Vaswig,Anges Sanford,etc,on of their central beliefs seems to be “Dominionism”


127. Anotheronlooker
August 23, 2004
1:23 AM

I so appreciate this whole discussion. I just stumbled upon this website because I am so upset about the PDL. In my area there are no churches who aren’t doing the PDL except the OPC (orthodox Presbyterian) and Catholic churches. I attend a PCA church 45 minutes from my home because the local PCA church is seeker sensitive (insert vomiting emoticon here). We are not yet doing the PDL but I fear it is only a matter of time. A friend of mine has been attending this s-s church and called me today very upset because from the pulpit the pastor declared “we are embarking on a 40 day spiritual adventure”. She knew what that meant and a member of the congragation came running up to her and her family to make sure they would come to one of the PDL small groups. She has no interest.

I find the strangest thing about this book and it’s followers is that they refer to this book the way a believer should refer to their Bible. I called a friend the other day to talk over a passage of Numbers that so excited me. Another friend called me to tell me that she couldn’t start her day without doing the PDL devotional for that day. It has a strange hold on people and that should make us very wary.


128. Roland Rey Balmocena
August 28, 2004
6:07 AM

the porpuse driven lifeis really a good book for everyone here.


129. Doug
September 5, 2004
4:19 PM

Dear Friend:

I did a Google search after watching yet another large Baptist church have a televised service announcing their impending journey into the Forty Days of Purpose thing. Choir robed, suited and tied, seemingly properly decorous senior citizens saying, “We are not hip enough, but we are now going to get with it.” It was kind of like watching Bert Parks trying to sing a Beatles song on the Miss America pageant. It was his last year by the way.

I am (and always have been) heart sick over the Laodicean church culture in America. Rather than a repentance from our ever-increasing self pampering, we codify and celebrate it as the next move of the Holy Spirit. Coming soon will be a nursing home best seller, “The Purpose Driven Bowel Movement.” Yet, through it all there will remain God’s true church in which His Word is enough, in which worship is driven by a desire to please God, and in which a pursuit of excellence in music will not give way to the “garage band,” man-centered noise we are hearing. I believe sooner rather than later God is going to strip the church of everything but Himself. It is then that we shall see mega-church become micro-church and understand the truth that “many are called, but few are chosen.”


130. Kent McElroy
September 25, 2004
1:21 AM

Please read Warren Smith’s new book entitled DECEIVED ON PURPOSE (Conscience Press). You can find more information on it online. I consider it a must read for all of us concerned about “Purpose Driven” anything.


131. Gabe
September 28, 2004
12:02 PM

Our pastor has just started PDL in our church and is very excited about it, along with everyone else. I, however, am very leary of this campaign. After hearing the “kick-off” sermon to open up the PDL, I came home and read the 1st chapter, and realized that our pastor basically preached to us chapter one of PDL. I was shocked when I read read some of the translations Warren used to make his case for our need to have purpose. One example and I’ll go: Rom. 8: 6 from the Message says “Obsession with self in these matters is a DEAD END.” This tremendously reduces the seriousness of this verse. The Greek word is “thanatos,” which means “death,” not “dead end.” This downplays the word “death,” making it sound like the consequence being carnally minded is just a miserable life w/o purpose, rather the wrath of God. Warren may mean well, but that doesn’t mean he’s right.


132. Lee
February 21, 2006
9:15 AM

For entire churches to be duped into following a paper-back book, shows incredible christian immaturity. First it was Rick Joyner’s Final Quest, which was a load of new age babble, now it’s The Purpose Driven life. Rick Warren is very clear when he states, his book doesn’t replace the bible. When we do make GOD our anchor in every part of our lifes, freedom comes, as he states. I have been struggling in many areas of my life, and it was only when i made a concious decision to allow GOD in, did change begin to happen. Once a person has made that concious decision to follow GOD, then he/she can ask for forigiveness of theirs sin and ask Yashua to come into their lives, otherwise we are taking out a life insurance policy to save us from hell! I think the book is probably geared to wards helping a person come to that decision, once they the book should be discarded. If mature christians are reading this book, then i wonder if they are really mature at all. But for whole churches to embrace the Purpose Driven Life, is very wrong!!! I found the book re-ordered my mind to realise that Yaweh is in everything and is everything, our very next breath!!


133. Jane
February 28, 2006
6:22 PM

This is the last comment. If only I had found this sight on September 28, 2004, maybe I could have swayed my church from following the Saddlebag lemmings over the cliff.


134. flores
March 20, 2006
9:09 PM

yes i do realized that there are misuse or miquotes from the bible, it is true. one will find that out. i have read the book it is so nice but then the scriptures were not specifically stated as to what specific verse, and when i tried to find it, it is not the exact quotation. but anyway the book is so nice to read, it is very refreshing…


135. christian gay juanico-burauen,phil
March 20, 2006
9:17 PM

i really love the book, and i hope i can have enough money so i can give it to some of my friends abroad, or over here in the Philippines. Rick, keep up the good work.

but pls b careful in quoting scriptures, because, readers are a bit wiser now than our ancestors, who dont read even if d can or for whatever reason, but now it’s different, most esp. christian converts are so meticulous about biblical verses.

anyway God bless and keep up the good work u have started….


136. jane
March 21, 2006
10:42 AM

The latest comments by Rick Warren about fundamentalism should cause any Bible-believing Christian to stop short and check which way the wind is blowing. Recently, in the Philadelphia Inquirer he is quoted “Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be ‘one of the big enemies of the 21st century.” This is why people who question the methods of his PDC movement are edged out by intimidation, sorrow, or force.


137. David L
April 23, 2006
12:15 PM

The following is a reference to two initial links which may be of assistance to your readers. I apologise if these have already been included in the comments posted above.

* Bible Bulletin Board - www.biblebb.com
This is an electronic ministry of the Word of God, preaching Jesus Christ, His love, death, resurrection, and salvation. We address the key issues of life: Death, Life, Love, Marriage, Men and Women, Divorces, Remarriage and articles of a very practical nature, from preachers of the past. Many articles on God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Heaven, and Hell. Holding forth the Bible as the source of truth for mankind.
* Bible Bulletin Board – includes an article on The Purpose Driven Life - www.biblebb.com/files/pdl.htm - A Review By Nathan Busenitz Copyright 2003, Pulpit - Shepherds’ Fellowship. All Rights Reserved. (For more information about Shepherds’ Fellowship and how to join go to: www.gracechurch.org/sfellowship) Extract - The Purpose Driven Life claims to be “a guide to a 40-day spiritual journey that will enable you to discover the answer to life’s most important question: What on earth am I here for?” (p. 9). A closer investigation of The Purpose Driven Life reveals several areas of weakness — areas in which the book proves to serve up more fluff than feast …


138. Efrain Hernaiz
May 18, 2006
3:26 AM

I want to have ur copy about Purpose driven life everyday by Rick warren to renewd me about how the world goes


Thank you very much ..


in Christ,


Ef


139. jaye griswold
May 23, 2006
5:10 PM

PDL has a lot of good points, but I think how you react to it has a whole lot to do with your personality.
I know we all need to help others more and think less of ourselves. PDL, however, has made me feel like I shouldn’t want a new house, like I have no right to feel happiness, and like I shouldn’t even be taking care of the material things I have. And I guess if you do ENJOY anything you’ve aquired, that’s wrong and it should only be for the good of others. Also, the book makes it sound as if God and the devil are somewhat working together to teach us all lessons (obviously their intentions are different). Anyway, like I said, it probably depends on your personality as to how this book is preceived. I all ready have quite a servants heart and it made me feel like I don’t deserve anything. I really liked Norman Vincient Pearl’s old book, “The Power of Positive Thinking” much better, and he still calls you to help others without beating you down so much. I may also read Joel Osteens book.
Blessings,
Jaye


140. Peter Stam
September 7, 2006
4:12 AM

I have a Big problem with Rick Warren, especially now that he has unveiled his P.E.A.C.E Plan.

Remarkably the 5 Giants Rick describes are exactly the 10 Goals of the Un’s Millennium Development Goals
http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/index.html

The Problem is the UN is the most likely candidate to implement the one world religion described as existing in the end times.