
The atheistic literary pantheon is currently comprised of three men: Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. All three men have written bestselling books and all three have published their most recent efforts in the past year. While I have no reason to believe that they have planned their books to coincide thematically or chronologically, their books do resemble each other in several ways. All three men believe that religion is a blight on society and all of them choose to deal most specifically with the evils of Christianity and its adherents. All three believe that religion harms far more than it hurts and all of them are angry and unwilling to be silent about all of this. Of these three, Dawkins is the most influential and we can rightly say that he is currently the most prominent atheist in the world.
Sam Harris, the philosopher, has a kind of “guy next door” quality. Though he’s clearly angry and has a bone to pick with religions and their adherents, he maintains a certain philosophical niceness and aloofness. Dawkins plays the role of the brilliant scientist and doesn’t care to be nice. Christopher Hitchens, the reporter, plays the role of the curmudgeon, confidently leveling both barrels and telling his readers exactly what he believes. Where Sam Harris’s book, which I recently reviewed, took the form of a Letter to a Christian Nation and was short and to the point, Dawkins’s The God Delusion is more formal, verbose and sometimes rambling. Where a reader may be left wishing Harris would expand on some of his points a little, he will often wish Dawkins would just get to the point already. We’ll get to Dawkins’s main point momentarily.
Dawkins begins by describing the purpose and intended audience of this book. “It is intended to raise consciousness—raise consciousness to the fact that to be an atheist is a realistic aspiration, and a brave and splendid one. You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled.” Shortly after he says, “If this book works as I intend, religious leaders who open it will be atheists when they put it down.” Though he admits this may be presumptuous optimism, it seems clear that he is serious. He wants to see nothing less than the eradication of religion and the conversion (or de-conversion) of religious adherents. Making it clear that it is Christians to whom he speaks more than any other, he wastes no time in sharing his opinion of God, at least as He reveals Himself in the Old Testament. “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Having made clear what he thinks of God, Dawkins defines what he calls the God Hypothesis. “There exists a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us.” Dawkins provides an alternate view. “Any creative intelligence, of sufficient complexity to design anything, comes into existence only as the end product of an extended product of gradual evolution.” God, thus, is a delusion. Dawkins sets out to show that He is a dangerous delusion and attempts to show where He has come from.
Dawkins admits that science cannot disprove God. However, he does feel that science makes God so improbable as to all but disprove His existence. “What matters is not whether God is disprovable (he isn’t) but whether his existence is probable.” After dedicating a chapter to dealing with common arguments for God’s existence (among which are the proofs offered by Thomas Aquinas, ontological arguments, arguments from beauty, experience, Scripture and even Christian scientists, and so on) he gets to the heart of the book, the argument that he considers extremely powerful and perhaps even impossible to overcome. Turning on the familiar question of “Who made God?” he makes an argument from improbability (calling this the Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit—a phrase that will make sense to those who are familiar with Fred Hoyle’s argument for proving God from design). “However statistically improbable the entity you seek to explain by invoking a designer, the designer himself has got to be at least as improbable.” For this argument to work it is important for people to understand that Darwinism teaches us to be wary of the assumption that the only alternative to chance is design. Instead, Darwinism shows that there can be “graded ramps of slowly increasing complexity.” It shows that organized complexity can arise without the hand of a designer. Thus Darwinism, according to Dawkins, is “the ultimate scientific consciousness-raiser.”
The question Dawkins says theists are unable to answer is this one: Who designed the designer? An entity capable of designing something as improbable and complex as any number of the amazing plants and animals we see in the world would have to be far more improbable. Positing a designer simply aggravates the problem of statistical improbability, so improbable is it that there would be both design and a designer. Design, says Dawkins, is simply unable to deal with improbability. Natural selection, though, is a “cumulative process, which breaks the problem of improbability up into small pieces. Each of the small pieces is slightly improbable, but not prohibitively so.” Natural selection has the power, says Dawkins, to tame improbability. Interestingly, such an assertion goes directly against the work of Michael Behe in his recent book The Edge of Evolution where he discusses the improbability of the mutations upon which evolution depends (and yes, I realize that even mentioning Behe’s name will make many people cease reading this review, so great is animosity towards him. But read my review of his book and you’ll see that I’m no great fan either). Behe also plays the statistics and probability game but with very different conclusions.
Even here, at the conclusion of Dawkins’s primary argument, we are only 160 pages into this 400 page book. He goes on to discuss the roots of religion, attempting to understand how religion evolved. After all, “Religion is so wasteful, so extravagant; and Darwinian selection habitually targets and eliminates waste.” Why, then, does it persist so widely? He proposes that religion is a by-product of something else and is really just the misfiring of an underlying psychological propensity which at one time may have been useful. He then discusses morality, attempting to show that humans do not need religion to be moral, providing several reasons he feels morality can be explained through a Darwinian lens: genetic kinship, reciprocation, benefit from acquiring a reputation for a particular trait and the benefit of conspicuous generosity as a way of buying unfakeably authentic advertising. After suggesting that modern morality does not stem from or depend upon the Bible (and after mocking the biblical concept of atonement), he discusses what is wrong and harmful in religion. Two chapters remain. In the first of these he discusses children, suggesting that raising children to be religious is a form of child abuse (though he backs down from suggesting whether such abuse should be grounds for authorities to punish parents or revoke their parental rights) and in the final chapter shows, to his satisfaction, at least, that humanity has no “God-shaped hole,” no gap that religion needs to fill in individuals or in society.
The book raised two overarching questions in my mind. I was fascinated by Dawkins’s continued references to luck. Luck is necessary even to his central argument. “Natural selection works because it is a cumulative one-way street to improvement. It needs some luck to get started, and the ‘billions of planets’ anthropic principle grants it that luck.” But what is luck? Might it be that even an atheist realizes that even natural selection is an incomplete explanation and that there must exist some force outside of even that? How can luck be a satisfying explanation for a man of science? Is luck ultimately any more satisfying than the presence of a deity? And as for probability, is probability not relative to a person’s perspective? Near the end of the book Dawkins deals quite enjoyable with perspective, showing that we, as humans, only perceive an object like a rock as being solid because of our perspective. Were we much smaller, we would see not a solid mass but the gaps between the atoms. So who are we to declare what is probable and improbable? Dawkins often accuses theists of having too narrow a perspective, of having an arrogance caused by a too-narrow perspective, yet he seems to fall into this same pit with his limited view of probability.
While Dawkins never claimed that he would be fair, I did note that he dealt exceedingly harshly with religion. For example, the book contains multitudes of stories where Christianity is claimed to be the cause of great sins and evils. He continually shows religion in general, and Christianity in particular, at its absolute worst. Never does he pause to show how Christians have brought help and healing to the world. He shows how professed Christians carried on the slave trade, but does not show how they led to its destruction. But when it comes to atheism he provides no bad examples. Even when he discusses Stalin and Hitler he suggests that they committed atrocities not because of their atheistic ideology, but in spite of it. Religious people, it seems, do evil in the name of their faith while atheists do evil despite their lack of faith. This is hardly fair; hardly convincing.
Then again, I don’t suppose I should go looking for fairness. Dawkins made it clear that he intended that this book would drive Christians away from their faith. It certainly did nothing to rock my faith. Despite the fact that this book attempted to do harm to the One I love most, I still enjoyed reading it and would even go so far as to recommend books of this nature to discerning Christian readers. I find it interesting to see how atheist thought is evolving, especially now that atheism is becoming a more legitimate, a more respectable alternative in our society. Dawkins is, in many ways, leading this charge as one of its elder statesmen. Then again, perhaps there is little hope for me. Dawkins makes it clear that religion is the opiate of the masses of those who are not as intelligent as he is and are perhaps not quite as evolved. Throughout the book he takes jabs at those who are not intelligent enough to see that religion is vestigial, that it is just a by-product of something else and that it serves no practical purpose. He is condescending towards those who hold to religion and has a kind of pity for them. There is a sense in which he is right. If God is not real, if Jesus is not the Son of God and has not risen from the dead, Christians are to be pitied above all, for we spend our lives in the wasteful pursuit of a God who is not there.
But my faith remains. The atheist has faith in science and mathematics, faith in pure probability and faith in his own ability to properly interpret them. The faith of the Christian lies elsewhere. We both have faith. But the Christian has hope.





Comments (49) »
1. Jer
July 27, 2007
11:43 AM
The atheist has faith in science and mathematics, faith in pure probability and faith in his own ability to properly interpret them. The faith of the Christian lies elsewhere. We both have faith. But the Christian has hope.
Right here, this is where you hit the proverbial nail on the head and ram it a hundred feet into the ground.
Thanks for the review Tim, I may actually bother to read through the thing now.
2. jscottkill
July 27, 2007
12:08 PM
Did you purchase this book? I always feel guilty for buying books that so openly stand in opposition to my Savior. I would, however, really like to read it, but I just can’t figure out a really good way to assauge my guilt for supporting a representative of a lie.
I know that I should be prepared to answer atheist’s claims, and I do a lot of reading to that end, but I just have difficulty putting my God-given dollars in Dawkins’ hand.
3. Cineaste
July 27, 2007
12:14 PM
“But my faith remains. The atheist has faith in science and mathematics, faith in pure probability and faith in his own ability to properly interpret them. The faith of the Christian lies elsewhere. We both have faith.”
Your use of the word “faith” here is an equivocation. Here is why.
4. Cineaste
July 27, 2007
12:15 PM
“But my faith remains. The atheist has faith in science and mathematics, faith in pure probability and faith in his own ability to properly interpret them. The faith of the Christian lies elsewhere. We both have faith.”
You’re use of the word “faith” here is an equivocation. Here is why.
5. Cineaste
July 27, 2007
12:16 PM
Sorry for the double post.
6. James Gordon
July 27, 2007
2:02 PM
Tim,
I agree with your last statement that “The atheist has faith in science and mathematics, faith in pure probability and faith in his own ability to properly interpret them. The faith of the Christian lies elsewhere. We both have faith.” However, I think that it implies that science and mathematics do not help the Christians’ cause. This is far from the truth, as I am sure you would agree. True though that our faith and hope lies elsewhere.
Also, I found it interesting that Dawkins’ strength as a scientist is backed by convincing scientific arguments. He is a brilliant man in certain areas, but in this work he allowed his rant to lead him into fallicious arguments.
I just picked up Alister McGrath’s The Dawkins Delusion, and it looks like an excellent refutation of Dawkins from another brilliant mind.
Cheers,
James
7. Troy
July 27, 2007
2:36 PM
Jscott; why not get it from the library? There may be a waiting list, but that way you aren’t financially supporting the author.
The demand for the book may encourage the library to support the author, but that I think could be balanced by (if you are so inclined) buying a book, like McGraths, that refutes Dawkins and donating that to the library.
8. James Gordon
July 27, 2007
3:30 PM
JSCOTTKILL,
Do you buy gas from the gas station, food from McDonald’s, shoes from Nike, or anything else from anywhere? If you do, then you are supporting things that are all against our Savior.
Unless you live in a homemade house, wear homemade clothes, eat homemade food, and ride a horse that you bred, your money is likely supporting atrocities.
Be in the world but not of the world like Jesus.
9. John K
July 27, 2007
3:52 PM
I posted a few of my own thoughts on Dawkins’ book here, if anyone is interested. they are, of course, posted in the reverse order to which I wrote them.
Take Care
10. M. Alan Neal
July 27, 2007
6:13 PM
Cineaste,
Tim’s use of the word “faith” is not an equivocation. Christians by no means believe the messge of the crucified and risen Christ on the basis of “some leap in the dark.” We believe in a risen Christ because there is evidence to point to such a reality, just as scienctists believe there is such a force as gravity by observing it’s effects.
Atheist’s like Dawkins have ruled out the possibility of a supernatural universe at the beginning by their pressupossitons. They don’t even try to refute arguments for the Ressurection because they have already decided the whole notion of such is absurd, a priori.
So with atheism and Christianity what one has is the conflict between two worldview systems with their own pressupostions about the nature of the universe. Atheism is a religion. Dawkins himself says that science cannot disprove God, but only point strogly in the direction of His nonexistence. So in the end there is still a faith based on evidence, not absolute proof. But, as Tim so rightly stated, only the Christian has hope in this world; a world gone terribly wrong. Atheism offers no such comfort, because it ultimately claims that all good as well as all evil, is merely the result of random evolution. Atheism brave? Maybe. But it is also hopeless. Who should we really pity in this conflict?
11. Cineaste
July 28, 2007
12:59 AM
“We believe in a risen Christ because there is evidence to point to such a reality…”
Isn’t your evidence of the resurrection from the Bible? Isn’t believing Jesus’ resurrection in the Bible as true, a matter of faith? Now, what you are doing is convincing yourselves that what you believe as a matter of faith, is actually knowledge. As I said, Tim’s use of the word “faith” is an equivocation.
“Atheist’s like Dawkins have ruled out the possibility of a supernatural universe…”
From what I understand, Richard Dawkins is a weak atheist not a strong one. That means he does not rule out or deny the possibility of the supernatural, it just means he finds it highly improbable.
“Atheism is a religion.”
No. Atheism is simply the lack of a God belief, the opposite of religion. Now, an atheist may have faith. For example, I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that does not make me religious.
“So in the end there is still a faith based on evidence, not absolute proof.”
That’s correct. I also have faith that leprechauns don’t exist. I find their existence highly improbable, though I could be mistaken.
“…only the Christian has hope in this world”
I’d say that’s a big conceit. There is a lot of hope to go around. It may be surprising to learn but, even atheists love their children and have hope for the future. If you mean, hope of an afterlife, the fact of the matter is no one knows what happens after death. Religions like Islam and Christianity claim to have this knowledge but they really don’t know. It’s another example of convincing yourselves that what you believe as a matter of faith, is actually knowledge.
“Atheism offers no such comfort…”
No, it doesn’t. Just because a belief is comforting, does not make it true. I’d rather live with the truth, uncomfortable as that may be.
“…merely the result of random evolution.”
Evolution is anything but random. The mechanism for evolution is natural selection. Nature “selects.”
12. Alberto
July 28, 2007
2:47 AM
I must agree that Tim’s use of the word faith is troubling. I understand faith to be what the Reformers taught. As Sinclair B. Ferguson writes:
“For the Reformers, faith has three dimensions: notiitia (or cognitio), assensus, and fiducia. It involves knowledge of God’s revelation in general and specifically of his revelation in Jesus Christ. It includes assent to biblical revelation (sola Scriptura). And such assent is based on and compelled by the truth of the gospel. It is “forced” upon us, irrestibly, by the truth of the gospel. In common with every other kind of faith, it is always “forced consent.” As Murray writes, “Faith is a force consent. That is to say, when evidence is judged by the mind to be sufficient, the state of mind we call “faith” is the inevitable precipitate. It is not something we can resist or in respect of which we may suspend judgement. In such a case faith is compelled. It is demanded, it is commanded. For whenever the reasons are apprehended or judged sufficient, will we, nill we, faith or belief is induced. Will to the contrary, desire to the contrary, overwhelming interest to the contrary, cannot make us believe the opposite of our judgement with respect to the evidence.” “
“But, supremely, faith is fiducia— personal trust in Christ…. Faith is thus “a heart trust which the Holy Ghost works in me by the Gospel.” Consequently, for the Reformers, faith implies a joyful assurance of salvation in Christ, a “sure and certain knowledge of God’s benevolence toward us,” as Calvin puts it.”
Thus the atheist and Christian do not share the state of mind Reformational Christians call “faith”.
13. Jeremy Pierce
July 28, 2007
7:49 AM
Tim, I’ve never seen anyone list a triumvirate of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens. I’ve seen people list the triumvirate of Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris. Has Hitchens supplanted Dennett already? I know Dennett’s book was the least recent of the three, but it was also the one that got this all started. Hitchens is the latecomer.
14. James Gordon
July 28, 2007
8:45 AM
Cineaste,
I think you are relying heavily on the assumption that there is no extrabiblical evidence for the events of the resurrection of Christ. To do that without your own evidence is an Ad Hominem. You accuse Tim of an equivocation then say “I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.” Is not that the same word that Tim used being used in the same way? There is evidence that the sun has risen in the past, there have been books written about it, and it has changed the way people go about their daily routines. Therefore, you are believing in something that you cannot see based on evidence. Are you saying that Tim is saying something different?
Also, you say Atheism is not a religion but don’t say what you think a religion is.
Alberto,
If you knew the text like you know the reformers you would know that faith is “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb 11:1).
15. Michael Krahn
July 28, 2007
9:01 AM
Tim,
I posted an article on Dawkins at Digital Journal that you might be interested in. It deals with the tone of his writing and his failure to reach his target audience.
The article can be found at:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/210063/The_Dawkins_Defeat
I’ve written more about Dawkins and The God Delusion at www.michaelkrahn.com/blog/richard-dawkins
16. Tim Challies
July 28, 2007
9:10 AM
“Tim, I’ve never seen anyone list a triumvirate of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens.”
I use them simply because they seem to be the most prominent ones today. Go rooting around online and it seems that they are the ones who are being read and enjoyed the most. Of course the list really is subjective (as is any alternate list), I suppose.
17. Dan
July 28, 2007
10:56 AM
“I think you are relying heavily on the assumption that there is no extrabiblical evidence for the events of the resurrection of Christ. “
Good point.
Christ Himself even stated that even if one were to rise from the dead, “they” would not believe. So its ulitmately a personal response to the gospel invitation. Many have weighed the evidence and come to different conclusions. I am sure we can list those who have changed their positions on faith / evolution / creation all day here. A civil debate is so much easier to read and follow then people cussing at eachother….kudos to you all. -sorry to ramble…
18. Brendt
July 28, 2007
1:39 PM
Dawkins was spot-on about one thing. The “Designer” is highly improbable — and I am quite thankful for that fact! ;-)
I find it most ironic that proponents of Darwinism and other beliefs that the species is improving are so adamant that if they can’t wrap their brains around something, it must not be true. If they simply waited another 10,000,000 years, maybe human brains would catch up, and find that they were wrong all along. (That last statement is tongue-in-cheek, of course.)
Finally, Tim, thank you for poring through this fecal matter — and such it is, even if you did enjoy it. Now go take a long shower.
19. John K
July 28, 2007
1:53 PM
Isn’t your evidence of the resurrection from the Bible?
Cineaste, do you believe there was such a person as Napoleon and that he was defeated by Wellinton at Waterloo? Do you believe Julius Caesar existed, or Alexander the Great. There are no living witnesses to their existence or the events of their lives. All we have is written records of history, the same as we have for Jesus of Nazareth and the events of his life.
Another, quite legitimate, definition of “faith” is, “…confidence or trust in a person or thing.”
One can have confidence or trust in something one knows exists without being able to prove it’s existence. You say that atheists love their children. Of course they do, but can you prove that love? Yes, you can demonstrate all sorts of external evidences through your words and actions, but ultimately you can’t prove that love to a third party, even though you know it exists.
To the Christian, one of the ultimate “proofs” of God is the witness of the Holy Spirit who dwells in each of us. I don’t expect you to understand, if you are not a Christian (indeed you cannot), but that evidence is more real to me, for instance, than if I were to hold it palpably in the palm of my hand.
Take Care
20. Jeff H
July 28, 2007
2:39 PM
Dawkins considers a designer to be highly improbable. I wonder how he supports this idea. If we allow for the possibility of the supernatural - something outside the natural, visible world - is there really any way to gauge the probability or improbability of anything in the supernatural realm?
21. Cineaste
July 28, 2007
3:39 PM
“”I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.” Is not that the same word that Tim used being used in the same way?”
No, not at all. “I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow” is a faith claim. “I have faith that the sun will not rise tomorrow” is also a faith claim. Is the word “faith” in these two statements identical? Of course not. This demonstrates Tim’s equivocation.
Now, apply this to the resurrection if Jesus. “I have faith that when people die, they stay dead” is a faith claim. “I have faith that some people like Jesus, Lazarus, and others died but miraculously came back to life” is also a faith claim. Is the word “faith” in these two statements identical? Again the answer is no. Here, the use of the word “faith” is an equivocation as well. One is a scientific claim and the other is a religious claim. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
“Also, you say Atheism is not a religion but don’t say what you think a religion is.”
I agree with the dictionary’s definition.
“Cineaste, do you believe there was such a person as Napoleon and that he was defeated by Wellinton at Waterloo? Do you believe Julius Caesar existed, or Alexander the Great. There are no living witnesses to their existence or the events of their lives.”
Yes I do. I also believe there was a Jesus of Nazareth. There are historical claims that Alexander was divine, but I am skeptical of those just as I am skeptical of claims regarding Jesus’ divinity.
“…but ultimately you can’t prove that love to a third party, even though you know it exists.”
I’d take this even further and say that nothing in the real world can be proved with absolute certainty. However, I’d put love of children in the same category of faith as “I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow” as opposed to “I have faith that the sun will not rise tomorrow.”
“…that evidence is more real to me, for instance, than if I were to hold it palpably in the palm of my hand.”
It seems your faith is so overpowering, that it has become unreasonable, meaning no one can reason with it. There is no logical argument one can present that would dissuade the faithful Christian from Christianity. If I am wrong and faith is reasonable, can Christians say what logic would dissuade them from their faith? And it’s not just Christians. Islam is identical in this respect.
22. Lane Keister
July 28, 2007
4:31 PM
Cineaste, who do you believe Jesus to be? A great moral teacher? If so, then how do you explain His claims to divinity? See espicially John 8:48-59, 20:24ff. Lewis was right. There are only three possibilities: Jesus was a lunatic, Jesus was a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth. Jesus never meant to leave open the possibility that He was merely a great moral teacher. So, which of the three is He?
23. M. Alan Neal
July 28, 2007
6:13 PM
“Now, apply this to the resurrection if Jesus. “I have faith that when people die, they stay dead” is a faith claim. “I have faith that some people like Jesus, Lazarus, and others died but miraculously came back to life” is also a faith claim. Is the word “faith” in these two statements identical? Again the answer is no. Here, the use of the word “faith” is an equivocation as well. One is a scientific claim and the other is a religious claim. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”
How do you figure that the word “faith” in those two statements does not mean the same thing. In both instances it means to believe a propisition to be true. Why is the statement that all people stay dead a scientific one but the claim that some have been raised from the dead just “religious?” Have you witnessed all deaths since the emergence of man? You’re claim to “science” would require you to be omniscient, and I know you are not claiming this. If only one person in human history was completely dead and came back to life, then you’re scientific claim would be bunk.
“It seems your faith is so overpowering, that it has become unreasonable, meaning no one can reason with it. There is no logical argument one can present that would dissuade the faithful Christian from Christianity. If I am wrong and faith is reasonable, can Christians say what logic would dissuade them from their faith?”
Well, I don’t know of any arguments from pure logic, but here is an evidential argument that would convince me I’m mistaken. Give me the bones of Jesus and account for the fact that His closest folowers (those who would know He was really dead) were willing to die for the truth claim that He had risen from the dead. Skpetics have tried, but have not succeeded in explaining away the Ressurection. From, “his followers stole the body” (a theory which the Gospels themselves mention) to “he didn’t really die on the cross,” all fail to adequately explain the evidence there. They look good close up, but when one takes in all the circumstances these theories are ridiculous.
24. John K
July 28, 2007
6:26 PM
If I am wrong and faith is reasonable, can Christians say what logic would dissuade them from their faith?
If their faith is true, then there is no logic that could prove it wrong.
Take care
25. M. Alan Neal
July 28, 2007
6:31 PM
“Evolution is anything but random. The mechanism for evolution is natural selection. Nature “selects.”“
Does Nature have causal power? It sounds like you are making Nature some sort of deity. According to the traditional Darwinian formulation, natural selection means that the fittest survive. Basically, the one with the best genes, wins! Again, to make a statement like this, one must know of not only the surviving species, but the extinct ones. How do we possibly know that the best genes are passed on? What if there was, way back in the evolutionary tree, an animal with stronger genes that make it ideally suited to survive (let’s say) an ice age. And we also have the first mammal. What if a meteor randomly came along and destroyed this emerging species of stronger animal, leaving the weaker mammal to take over? This scenario has nothing to do with being “fit.” The animal population was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, by chance. Saying the fittest survive really boils down to saying, “whatever survived, survived.” This a tautology and serves no puprose in being stated.
An athesitic evolutionist named Morowitz decided to calculate the probability of the emergence of the first single-celled organism by chance. His results were that the likelihood of this happening (by chance, that is) was 1 in 10^340,000,000. That’s 1 in 10 with 340,000,000 zeros after it. And yet the atheist believes this happened. That is faith that no logic will change.
26. Cineaste
July 28, 2007
6:58 PM
“If their faith is true, then there is no logic that could prove it wrong.”
Exactly, John. This is why. We don’t know it’s true. If faith was proved true, it wouldn’t be a matter of faith anymore, would it?
“Have you witnessed all deaths since the emergence of man?”
I have never actually “witnessed” a heart in your chest but I can still scientifically infer that you do indeed have a heart. That’s a faith claim. If I claimed Jesus miraculously allows you to live without a heart, that is also a faith claim. Though the word “faith” is used in both cases, can you seriously claim they are identical and equal?
27. John K
July 28, 2007
7:50 PM
We don’t know it’s true.
Whadya mean, we? :)
If faith was proved true, it wouldn’t be a matter of faith anymore, would it?
Your definition of faith is too narrow. Faith can also mean trust in something you know is true.
Take Care
28. Cineaste
July 28, 2007
9:39 PM
“Faith can also mean trust in something you know is true.”
Uh huh. By that rational, I have “faith” that 2 + 2 = 4. You call that faith? I wouldn’t call “trust in something you know is true” a big leap of faith. In fact, I don’t see any “leap” at all.
29. Laz
July 28, 2007
9:53 PM
Cine,
I don’t mean to be following you across blogs run by guys named “Tim”.
Well according to the Random House Webster’s dictionary, here is the definition of religion:
So are you sure atheism wouldn’t fall under #1? The ‘esp.’ is not a requirement, of course.
30. Cineaste
July 28, 2007
10:42 PM
Heya Laz, good to see you. I don’t think atheism falls under #1 because of the words, “A set of beliefs…” Atheism is a lack of belief, specifically a lack of a God belief. But I think I know where you are coming from. You are thinking of “strong atheism” which is different from “weak atheism.”
Like Christians, there are many different kinds of atheists. There may be atheists who believe in astrology, though I’ve never met any. I guess what all Christians share is the belief Christ is divine. The only thing atheists have in common is the lack of a God belief. I’ll respond to your post over at Tim Ellsworth’s in a bit. Cya there.
31. olvlzl, no ism, no ist
July 28, 2007
10:53 PM
You are too quick to assume that atheists own math and science, a mistake far too many of them make. They don’t. It is absolutely possible for a religious believer to have quite a distinguished career in math or science, in fact it is not uncommon at all.
While I had problems with most of the book, and, indeed most of what I’ve read by Dawkins over the decades, the claim that God is rendered improbable is probably the most amazing for someone holding a high position in the sciences at Oxford. To apply probability math to the question of something that is supernatural is absurd. There is no way to know if there is any applicability of probability to a case such as the existence of God and no way to test it. If that’s what Dawkins knows about probability his professional rivals might want to check his math.
Likewise the “who designed the designer” and the claimed necessity for a God to have “evolved” is, in the first case, not a logical necessity since by definition a God can be infinite, everlasting and, again, existing outside of the physical universe. There is no need for such a God to be desigined because they always existed outside of space-time. Dawkins requirement of an “evolved” God is particularly interesting coming from a strict adaptationist. Where is the necessity of God competing for survival? Where is the necessity of an everlasting and omnipotent and omniscient God to develop before creating human beings? Doesn’t Dawkins argument imply that there is an increasing complexity and development leading up to human beings? Is Dawkins saying that human beings are the crown of creation? What happened to man not having a special place in the universe? Maybe he’d better talk to his colleagues in Kurtz’ cult before he continues in that line.
And, most striking of all, would the mechanism of evolution be located? Does he think that God has genes? Or does he just skate over the actual physical existence of these theorized “God genes” as he does those modules of behavior supposedly located in the human brain.
I suspected that Dawkins “memes” were his attempt to make a golden parachute for himself if the flaws in his EP catch up with him. A science that depends on descriptions of social, family life and individuals in the Pleistocene (of which there is absolutely no dependable physical evidence) is on shaky ground. I suspect that since memes are primarily a pop-science concept that he might be worried about that as well, thus we have his war on religion. I think in the end that what he does might produce a small group of atheists with an inflated opinion of themselves and some rabid bigotry against religious believers but in the end his case is built of little more than that.
32. Randy Hurst
July 28, 2007
11:25 PM
Cineaste,
I have been following this debate (Believers vs. Atheists / Faith vs. Science) since high school (40+years). So the above few paragraphs (and links that I have followed i.e., logic sequencing) are nothing new; nor are Dawkins and Clan’s claims. Much of the Vs. part needs to be bridged, not barricaded.
To make this circular path (on both sides of the debate) shorter: Both Science and Religion remain full of mysteries…done any quark study lately?
C.S. Lewis was an avowed atheist that found faith in the gaps through the spiritual experience of JOY.
I am but one measly person who found faith in Christ through what can I call the WOW of his sacrificial love. That a person can love enough to die for his enemies is beyond both religion and science.
I have limitless appreciation for science because I know its designer. I have existential experience with what we both describe as God. I have faith based on facts that must be true or I truly am delusional along with Christ. In all these years both in and out of strong belief I keep coming back to - the love of Christ becomes the most pragmatic of all life practices. What Jesus did on the cross is a mystery of change that no one will ever be able to explain. His resurrection’s greatest proof (though the empirical historical data is on par with any other historical fact) is in the lives of truly transformed believers.
Thank you for coming here to challenge what you see as gaps/circles in logic. Being honest, you have to admit there remain tremendous gaps in our understanding of the micro/macro-verses. Just as we seek answers to those gaps in science with you, I hope you will see the Love of Christ through the gaps in the fence you have put around all religion.
Agapao, Randy
33. olvlzl, no ism, no ist
July 29, 2007
10:05 AM
Strong vs. weak atheism. I’ve noticed two types of atheism, those who say, ” I don’t believe there is a God” and those who say, “I know there is no such thing as a God”. The first type, the “I don’t believe” might be considered to be a weak atheist but this is false. The “I don’t believe” atheist is stating a fact of which she or he can be certain, they don’t believe. The “I know there is no God” type of atheist is standing on something that can’t be true, you can’t know there is no God.
I distinguish in this the difference between liberal atheism and fundamentalist atheism, just as you can distinguish liberal and fundamentalist religion. I’ve about had it with the fundamentalists both non-believing and believing and am really only interested in talking to liberals of either group. Like religious fundamentalists, atheistic fundamentalists are noted for their bigotry, their assertions of things which aren’t true - atheists do not own math, logic and science no matter how many times they say they do.
Like fundamentalists of religion, fundy atheists are notable for their hostility towards liberal atheists calling them such things as “Neville Chamberlain atheists”.
34. Ken
July 29, 2007
1:57 PM
Perhaps the mistake is in thinking that the phrase “leap of faith” (coined, if memory serves, by Soren Kierkegaard) accurately conveys the biblical idea of what it is to have faith. In my experience, many skeptics think that having faith entails credulity, or stubborn belief despite or in the absence of evidence. This is not correct.
I came across this observation by John Stott on Hebrews 11: “Put simply, faith is the assurance that the future we anticipate will take place and that the present we cannot see is nevertheless real. Of course, unbelievers scoff at Christian faith. According to H. L. Mencken, the so-called sage of Baltimore, ‘Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.’ It is witty, but inaccurate. Faith is not a synonym for credulity or superstition. It is neither irrational nor illogical. No, faith and reason are never placed in antithesis to one another in Scripture. Faith and sight are contrasted, but not faith and reason. On the contrary, ‘Those who know your name put their trust in you’ (Psalm 9:10, RSV). They trust because they know. The reasonableness of trust arises from the trustworthiness of its object, and nobody is more trustworthy than God.”
35. Cineaste
July 29, 2007
10:15 PM
“…having faith entails…belief despite or in the absence of evidence.”
“Right here, this is where you hit the proverbial nail on the head and ram it a hundred feet into the ground.”
- Jer
36. John K
July 29, 2007
11:06 PM
Well said, Ken. I have found, too, that skeptics stubbornly hold on the their own pet definition of “faith.” It is the only one they can argue with. Generally speaking they are either too narrow-minded, near-sighted, or just plain disingenuous to deal with the real type of faith to which you and I both alluded; that is, trust in something we know to be true.
Cineaste,
I’m not sure you quite got Ken’s last post. He gave what he clearly states is an untrue characterization of Christian faith, and you seem to commend him for being right. As for your reply to my own latest post, what’s the big deal about leaping. True Christian faith doesn’t involve a blind leap at all. It is a matter of trusting the God we know is there; the God who will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all his heart.
Take Care
37. Cineaste
July 30, 2007
12:03 AM
“It is a matter of trusting the God we know is there; the God who will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all his heart.”
Abracadabra!
38. Ken
July 30, 2007
8:07 AM
Movielover: If this conversation is to be meaningful we have to come to a consensus on the definition of the word “faith.” Otherwise we’re simply talking past one another.
39. olvlzl, no ism, no ist
July 30, 2007
12:17 PM
Maybe in coming up with a definition of “faith” it shouldn’t be forgotten that faith resides in an individual, often on the basis of their personal experience. It clarifies a lot that is usually forgotten.
Faith is the belief, acceptance or reliance on something for which the individual hasn’t mastered its proof. Many scientists have faith in what they believe is the “scientific method”, though its definition is far from uniform and it is which even some scientists deny exists. All of the assertions of the unfortunately named “evolutionary psychologists” about the behavior of people during the Pleistocene, for which there isn’t any physical evidence at all, are accepted on the basis of faith by many who believe they don’t practice faith.
40. Cineaste
July 30, 2007
12:46 PM
“Many scientists have faith in what they believe is the ‘scientific method’…”
You’ve gone in a circle. Your use of the word “faith” here is an equivocation. Here is why.
41. Ken
July 30, 2007
1:06 PM
Movielover: You keep using that comic. I do not think it communicates what you think it communicates (HT: Inigo Montoya).
When “Barmaid” uses the word “faith,” what do you think she means by it?
Far from proving an equivocation, I believe this little comic is an excellent illustration of petitio principio on the part of the stripper.
42. Ken
July 30, 2007
1:12 PM
Pardon me—that’s petitio principii.
My Latin teacher is undoubtedly turning over in his grave right now…
43. Cineaste
July 30, 2007
1:12 PM
“When “Barmaid” uses the word “faith,” what do you think she means by it?”
Use the dictionary, not the Bible when you don’t know what a word means.
44. Ken
July 30, 2007
2:35 PM
Movielover: Which dictionary? And why does any English dictionary trump the Bible’s use of the term in translation of the Greek original? But that’s really beside the point. I know what I mean when I use the word “faith;” I’m asking what you think “Barmaid” means when she uses the word. Please don’t avoid the question.
Frankly, your non-responsiveness in the past few posts leads me to believe you are not here to participate in meaningful dialogue but to stir up the brethren. If I am mistaken, I’d appreciate a clarification.
45. Tim Ellsworth
July 30, 2007
4:03 PM
Cineaste,
I’m curious as to why you’re asking the same questions here that many people have already answered for you — on my blog and on others’ blogs. Do you not believe our answers?
46. Cineaste
July 30, 2007
7:15 PM
Such as?
47. Tim Ellsworth
July 30, 2007
8:24 PM
Such as this one:
“If I am wrong and faith is reasonable, can Christians say what logic would dissuade them from their faith?”
Answered previously for you here:
http://www.timellsworth.com/?p=1868
Or this one:
“Isn’t your evidence of the resurrection from the Bible?”
Answered previously for you here:
http://ruanole2.blogspot.com/2007/06/evolution-creation-discussion-thread.html
Your linking to the same cartoons, raising the same objections, asking the same questions to which you’ve already been given an answer, etc., all give weight to Ken’s charge above.
48. Cineaste
July 30, 2007
10:50 PM
Ah, I see. Those are rhetorical questions geared to get Christians thinking. They are not for my edification, but theirs. The answer to the first question is, there is no logic that would dissuade a Christian from their faith. M. Alan Neal confirmed this. That demonstrates Christian faith is unreasonable. He did say something about bones but I dismissed that as blatantly irrelevant. Why you ask? Here is why (warning: not Christian friendly because of a bad word). It’s a fallacy which if I recall, you made as well when I asked you that question, Tim. The answer to the second question is, yes. It demonstrates the Christian argument is also it’s own source; circular reasoning. The cartoons illustrate my point for them so they understand it better. They also save me a ton of typing and it saves readers time as well.
“…all give weight to Ken’s charge above.”
Oh, very well, I’ll answer Ken’s “charge,” just for you. He said, “Frankly, your non-responsiveness in the past few posts leads me to believe you are not here to participate in meaningful dialogue but to stir up the brethren.” If my unresponsiveness stirs up the brethren, I worry about what their reaction would be if I did respond. The “brethren” seem quite pugilistic already. Why antagonize them further with a response that is sure to be “unchristian” and logical? Besides, I already made my point about Tim’s equivocation in posts #21 and #26, by responding to John. Why should I continue when all I’m going to get in return is a lot of preaching, strawman arguments, and animosity? Let’s face facts, it’s just me here with a lot of Christians so I’m going to have to pick my spots. When I come across a response that I feel makes a good point, I’ll respond.
49. Tim Ellsworth
July 31, 2007
9:45 AM
That demonstrates Christian faith is unreasonable. He did say something about bones but I dismissed that as blatantly irrelevant. … It’s a fallacy which if I recall, you made as well when I asked you that question, Tim.
That’s odd, Cineaste. Here’s your response on my blog to my argument that the dead body of Jesus would shatter Christianity:
“Alright, I’ll take you at your word. That means your faith can indeed be reasoned with. You are willing to admit your Christian faith can be proved wrong.”
If you’re so convinced that there’s no historical evidence for the resurrection, I’d encourage you to take up the challenge and disprove it historically. You seem to think it shouldn’t be that hard, so you don’t have much to lose. As I’ve said elsewhere, we have our original sources. You shouldn’t have any problem coming up with some to prove your case.
Have a good day, Cineaste. Like Jim Edmonds most of the time, I’m out.