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Sunday February 5, 2006

Call The Sabbath A Delight

SabbathI recently heard someone say “I follow all 9 of the 10 commandments.” It is true, isn’t it, that we continue to regard each of the other 9 commandments as being integral to the Christian life, but have disregarded the fourth. A few years ago I read an article written by an unbeliever and published in a major newspaper where she questioned how Christians could simply disregard this commandment. Her conclusion was that it was mere disobedience - that Christians disregarded the commandment simply because following it would conflict with our lifestyles. Was she on to something, or did she merely misunderstand the relationship of the Old Testament to the New - a very common problem with believers and unbelievers alike?

Call The Sabbath A Delight is the first book I have read dedicated entirely to the subject of Sabbath observance in the post Old Testament era. I have read bits and pieces of information regarding why we should or should not continue to honor the fourth commandment, but never a book-length treatment. This particular book is published by Banner of Truth which should give a pretty good indication of which side the author will take. He represents the view that I was raised with. I was raised in a Presbyterian home and attended Reformed schools and churches and was continually admonished to keep the Sabbath holy. I spent one year of my life in Scotland and there we were taught that we were not even to play with friends on Sunday, but were instead to read our Bibles and study our Catechisms. While the author, Walter Chandry, may not be that strict, he clearly believes that Christians have abandoned a practice which we need to rediscover out of obedience to God.

A common argument against observing the Sabbath in our time is that Christ did away with the moral Law when He died for us. Underlying this observation is a belief or assumption that the Sabbath was somehow a burdensome obligation for God’s people, but nothing could be farther from the truth. The Sabbath was a creation ordinance, for even in a perfect world God rested on the seventh day and declared it as being set apart to Him. So when we examine this issue we need to do so free from a bias that the Sabbath was an obligation. On the contrary it was a wonderful privilege, given by a loving God. Any harm that befell the day was the fault of sinful humans who are adept at turning anything wonderful into something burdensome.

The author covers the following topics:

1. The Commandment is Holy
2. The Commandment is Spiritual
3. The Commandment is Good
4. Does the NT Teach the 4th Commandment?
5. Sabbath Observance: Mosaic and Christian
6. Motives for Sabbath-Keeping
7. Which Day of the Week in the Sabbath?
8. Difficult Cases of Conscience

I will leave you to read his arguments on your own if the topic interests you. His conclusion is that the Sabbath, as a creation ordinance, continues to this day so that God requires that we continue to honor it even today. “No age has ever more intensely needed Sabbath-keeping than ours. Attempts to scrap God’s moral law and to replace it with institutions and schemes of human invention are miserably failing. Sabbath-keeping in isolation is not an answer to all man’s ills. Yet, this law is intimately related to all others and has a necessary connection with the other branches of God’s moral code. Where even small segments of mankind have succeeded in implementing a joyful observance of the Sabbath, they have reaped enormous benefit. It is time for us, too, to call the Sabbath a delight and to return unto the Lord.”

While his arguments are compelling, I am not sure that they are strong enough to convict the evangelical who has never even considered that the Sabbath may extend to our day. His argument is valuable, though, for it represents the view held by many Presbyterian and Reformed believers. Their belief is one which many, if not the majority, of Christians held until recent times.

As for me, I admit with some shame that I do not honor the Sabbath as I used to. I refrain from working and try to set the day apart, but certainly do not treat the day in a way which would make my Presbyterian friends proud. Do I believe that the church would benefit from returning to honoring the Sabbath? I certainly do. But do I truly believe this is an obligation? That is where I am not quite so sure. I struggle with this issue and intend to keep reading about it, studying both perspectives.

Amazon

Comments (245) »


1. The Preacher's Wife
February 5, 2006
3:17 PM

I was raised in a presbyterian church in the Highlands of Scotland. Sabbath observance there was more about what you couldn’t do, which as a child seemed to be pretty much everything. Nothing was open except hotels, there were no ferries to the islands either. It was only 3 years ago that flights in and out of the Isle of Lewis (the largest Hebridean island)started on a Sunday, I believe the ferry still doesn’t go on a Sunday.

In 1994 that shops in England and Wales were open for the first time following a relaxation of the Sunday Trading Laws.

Well, I’m not in Scotland now, but in London and I’m married to a presbyterian minister. We would try to keep the sabbath as best we can, we often have people back from church for lunch, if we don’t already have folk staying with us, and then we have another service in the evening at church. We try to make it a day that the children especially enjoy and that they would see it as a postive thing.


2. The Preacher's Wife
February 5, 2006
3:20 PM

just one more thing - Walter Chantry has been pastor of a Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, PA since the 60’s I think, he may be retired now though.


3. David Chalkley
February 5, 2006
3:22 PM

Rev. Walter Chantry was for years the pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I am nearly certain he is a Baptist.
Like you, I have long been unable to state a clear conclusion on why we should keep the Sabbath, but also like you, I have thought that so many truly godly believers in the past had true, Biblical reasons for why they believed as they did. Though I cannot prove so yet, I believe that Scripture — and secondly the exemplary ones before us who so clearly, strongly believed in this — show that we should. I would be glad for more insights from you as you probe this further.


4. Chelsey Karns
February 5, 2006
3:27 PM

I think that regardless of how much Scriptural evidence you may find to support the keeping of the Sabbath in today’s day and age, attempting to honor it for a period of time is enough to convince almost anyone of the value of it.

I’m 19 years old, in college, work 15 hours a week, and have an overloaded course schedule. But ever since I was in high school and my youth pastor admonished me not to do homework on Sundays, I have tried to discipline myself to do so. It is hard. Especially in college. I really have to plan ahead — if I know I have a test on Monday, then I try to study hard Friday and Saturday, and I don’t consider myself a hermit… I like to go out with friends as much as the next person. But as years have passed and this has become something natural, not something I have to really fight for, I have found myself actually looking forward to Sundays. It is so freeing to be sitting in church and not be worrying about what I have to do in the afternoon. And I have found great blessing from God — I have never felt like I’ve done worse on a Monday test because I didn’t study the night before.

I don’t mean to sound legalistic, as there have certainly been weekends full of obligations that required me to do homework on Sunday. But I even say that tongue-in-cheek, because I could get up Monday mornings and do that work. While I guess it is difficult to prove that this is something we are still commanded to do, instead of being technical about it, I would rather think that one should examine their heart and think about their motives for not wanting to make the Sabbath a day of rest.


5. Phil
February 5, 2006
3:52 PM

As John MacArthur notes, “In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come.” I just don’t understand why some people have a hard time with the idea the Christ could change things — either through direct teaching, or through fulfillment. I’m new (only a few years) to Reformed theology, but have been a Christian for 15 years. When I came to the Reformed side of things, I felt like I was being told, “Yeah, yeah, OK, Christ died for us and all that, whatever… but if you really want to live right, go back to Torah!” That’s not meant to be inflamatory, it’s just how I really felt. Every Sabbath-keeping proponent I’ve ever met or read comes within an inch of doubting at least the sincerity (if not the very salvation) of those who see Christ as their rest in accordance with Pauline epistles.

See: “Are the Sabbath laws binding on Christians today?” by John MacArthur. I think he not only makes his points clearly, but soundly addresses (in the negative) every claim of the Sabbath-keepers.

Here are the facts for the NT Church in the Bible: The Apostles never imposed Sabbath-keeping; They never warned anyone against not keeping it (only against not meeting); they rebuked the Galations for imposing Sabbath-keeping (Gal 4); and believers we told not to “let any one judge you” regarding keeping Sabbath or other OT observances.

One would think that would settle it, but it doesn’t. When one’s theology goes against Apostolic teaching and practice, playing the “Yeah, but… yeah, but…” game and running to (fulfilled) OT commandments is not a vialbe theological solution.


6. Phil
February 5, 2006
4:02 PM

One quick follow-up, regarding Chantry’s admonition that we should consider Sabbath a joy and not a burden, I have this in reply: Mr. Chantry, I have entered into Christ, and thus entered into the rest for which Paul said Sabbath was a foreshadowing. I praise God that I have entered into the joy of that rest, and I praise Him more that the “new” and “superior” covenant in Christ allows me that rest for the other six days a week also.


7. Davey
February 5, 2006
4:41 PM

Fine day for you to post this, Tim. It being Superbowl Sunday here in America, and all.

It’s funny you would bring this up though - as I just finished reading our Sunday paper which took about 2 1/2 hours. I wonder if that’s the best way for me to spend my Sunday afternoon and have wondered about this issue of the 4th commandment in the past. Does God want us to spend our Sunday afternoons with more reverence and reflection? Previous generations thought so.

It’s just that people tend to cry “legalism” anytime this topic is even brought up.

That being said, I appreciate Phil’s links to MacArthur’s position as it gave me something to think about.


8. David Sloss
February 5, 2006
5:00 PM

As to the issue of which day is celebrated as the Sabbath, it is worth noting that our Seventh Day Adventist friends have done considerable thinking and study on this issue. I would refer you to the writings of Dr. Sammuel Bacchiocchi.

Further I would suggest that Marva Dawn’s book Keeping the Sabbath Wholly is worth a read.

I would be interested in the timing of the change from Saturday to Sunday as the day of community worship and I think we do not find that within the pages of Scripture but in history. I am disturbed when I read that the instigation of this change was because everyone else was doing it - meaning that in the late Roman period Sunday was the day set aside to worship the Sun God and so it was convenient to join into these festivities.

Some would also suggest that the Roman Catholic Church was instrumental in making this change or practice.

Now to really disrupt things, if we examine the prophetic portions of Scripture, do we not find that the Sabbath will again be the day of corporate worship? (Ezekiel 46)


9. Cedric Hohnstadt
February 5, 2006
5:45 PM

This is a topic I’ve wrestled with for a long time. I seem to go through a cycle of keeping/not keeping/keeping/not keeping the Sabbath. I definitely want to read this book and ponder it. Most importantly I want to find and honor the spirit of the Sabbath without distorting it into any sort of legalism.


10. Tim Challies
February 5, 2006
8:00 PM

The one issue I just cannot get past is why we would affirm 9 of 10 commandments. We all agree that the other 9 continue to be valid and binding today. Why would one pass away?


11. Ellen
February 5, 2006
8:13 PM

All of the ten commandments are addressed in the New Testament. Nine of affirmed, the 4th commandment is fulfilled in Christ.


12. Chelsey Karns
February 5, 2006
8:26 PM

If you think to what Jesus told the Pharisees, though, I can’t remember him ever saying that the Sabbath law was no longer applicable. He certainly said that it was OK to help your neighbor, or to get your donkey out of a ditch, but I don’t know of a place where he said it was no longer meant to be honored.

And I can’t see the harm in honoring it even if it isn’t an explicit commandment anymore. If nothing else it leads to a greater joy in Christ, in taking a day off during the week from school, work, stresses, etc. to reflect on Him and study His Word.


13. Dan, The Roof Guy
February 5, 2006
9:56 PM

I was surprised to see this review on Walter Chantry’s book. I didn’t really know that WalterChantry wrote a book on the sabbath.

I do know now that he is a humble man.

I met Walter when I visited a small church of about 20 members near my house, and he took an interest in reaching out to me and talking. He never talked much about his ministry before, although his wife would try to tell me somethings, but I never picked up that he was an author.

He invited me to lunch at one point, and we went to Roy Rogers, and talked. He spent much time telling me of covenant theology, and interestingly enough we got on the topic about the Sabbath. He seemed very knowledgeable, and I truly enjoyed the discussion. (Although there are still parts of the Sabbatarian (sp?) arguements I don’t understand).

This blog was the first I time I realized that I he had authored this book (although I have since seen him quoted in other works).


14. Stan
February 5, 2006
10:00 PM

I agree with Phil’s comments. I am involved with a ministry for former SDAs and post at www.formeradventist.com One thing that kept me from quickly embracing the Reformed faith is because of their emphasis on the Old Covenant. If you folks who would impose Sabbatarianism were consistent, then you would do as my former cultic group of SDAs do and keep Saturday. At least I give them credit for consistency.

Then I was happy to see that John MacArthur endorsed a former SDA’s book by Dale Ratzlaff called “Sabbath in Christ”. I have also discovered John Reisinger’s New Covenant Theology at www.soundofgrace.com He has some great arguments against the imposition of a Sabbath of any kind. There is a wealth of information on New Covenant Theology there that is well worth reading. One article in particular is called “The Believer’s Sabbath”. Check out his information, and if you do I doubt you could hold a Sabbatarian position.

When you consider everything Paul did write negatively about the keeping of days in Rom 14, Col 2, and Gal 4, then wouldn’t you consider it strange that NOT ONE of the apostles in the epistles even mentioned to the Gentile church how to keep the Sabbath—not even once.

The former SDA apologist Robert Brinsmead said it well. “Those that hold to the idea that a 24 hour period of time makes any difference on a round world are about as outmoded as the flat earth society.”

Stan Ermshar


15. Dan, the Roof Guy
February 5, 2006
10:01 PM

By the way, he is reformed baptist. And he was retired from his pastorate in PA, and was humbly a member of a small country church I happened to find.

A humble man with a love for God’s people. And a heart for young men =)


Tim, we do affirm all 10 commandments. The sabboth is affirmed and we honor it in Christ’s rest.


16. Ellen
February 5, 2006
10:23 PM

If you think to what Jesus told the Pharisees,

If that’s the only part of the Bible that’s applicable, maybe.

But the law tells us who the Sabbath was for:
Ex. 31:17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ “

The Sabbath was for the Israelites.

Colossians 2:16-17, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”

The Sabbath was a shadow of things to come - the reality, our Sabbath rest - is in Christ.


17. Jeremy
February 5, 2006
11:08 PM

Regarding where did Jesus say the Sabbath was no longer applicable—where did He say the Passover was no longer applicable? Where did He tell the Jews that circumcision was no longer applicable? In fact, He proclaimed circumcision to be above the Sabbath (John 7:22-23), and yet never said it was no longer applicable.

But the NT makes it clear these laws are not binding on us and that we are NOT under the Law of Moses, but the Law of Messiah (Christ). 1 Cor. 9, etc.

If you’re gonna try to keep the Law you have to keep the WHOLE Law—Gal. 3.

TIM, we are NOT supposed to keep 9 out of 10 commandments. The whole Decalogue (which is the OId Covenant—Deut. 4:13, et al) has been done away with and REPLACED by the New Covenant. See 2 Cor. 3 and Heb. 8.

We are commanded to CAST OUT the Ten Commandments (the Old Covenant—Deut 4:13) in Galatians 4:30!

The New Covenant tells us how to live now and it’s moral standards are actually much higher than the Decalogue’s.

Jeremy


18. Davey
February 5, 2006
11:29 PM

Jeremy,

I respectfully disagree. Galations 4:30 is not telling us to “cast out” the 10 commandments. Galations 4:30 is simply telling us that salvation is no longer by works (keeping the law), but by faith in Christ.

Which one of the 10 commandment should we no longer follow? Thou shall not commit adultery? Covet? Murder?

No, we still have to do these things. The old law merely points us to Christ who further expanded on these laws (ie. Not simply ‘not’ murder, but also not hate your brother). We can’t keep the law, no one could - except Christ - so the law points us to Christ, and Christ alone for our salvation.


19. Jeremy
February 5, 2006
11:41 PM

Davey, to answer your question, we should no longer follow any of the Ten Commandments. Does this mean that I should steal? No, I must follow Eph. 4:28 which says to not steal. Does this mean I should lie? No, I must follow Col. 3:9 which says to not lie.

Etc.

In other words, I should follow the (even higher) moral standards of the New Covenant.

Here’s an analogy. American law tells me I can’t steal. But if I move to Canada, I am no longer under American law, correct? Does that mean that I am free to steal now? No, for I am now under Canadian law, which tells me I can’t steal.

See?

Jeremy


20. Jeremy
February 5, 2006
11:50 PM

I should add that in the above analogy, when I move to Canada and refrain from stealing, I am not following American law. Not at all. Even if some of Canada’s laws happen to be the same, I am following Canadian law and not American law.

The same is true with the Ten Commandments/ Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) which we are no longer under (and which us Gentiles never were anyway), and the New Covenant (the Law of Christ) which we are under.

Jeremy


21. Passer-by
February 6, 2006
12:23 AM

Which one of the 10 commandments should we no longer follow?

I would say we no longer “follow” any of them! Rather, they follow us through the power of the Spirit. We no longer are obligated to “keep” any of the 10C as a matter of Law, because each of the 10C is fulfilled by the Law of Love, which is mediated in us through the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Christ has fulfilled the Law for us, and now we live IN HIM, not under the Law. The 10C are the shadows; Christ is the substance.

Christ Himself said that all Ten could be summed up in two commandments: 1) love God (1-4), and 2) love your neighbor (5-6). Galatians (not “Galations,” BTW) is so clear that we are no longer under ANY law (Gal. 5:18), that I am frankly surprised this discussion is even taking place. If we say that we MUST obey the 10C, we are living in the flesh, and are deceived (Gal. 3:1-5). We are to live by the Spirit, which is the ONLY way we can please God. If we say that obeying (or following) the 10C can somehow please God, we have become boastful (Gal. 5:26). Whatever is not of the Spirit is of the flesh (Rom. 8:3-6).

Regarding the Sabbath, God gave those laws to Israel, but there is wisdom in them. We learn from them, and respect what they reveal about God’s character and righteousness, but they are not commands under the New Covenant—they were nailed to the cross with the rest of the Law. We can use them for principles, and see how they are fulfilled in the NT and in Christ, but we do not disobey God by not keeping the Sabbath. Rather, we respect the wisdom in the Sabbath principle and apply that to our lives. But we have FREEDOM IN THE SPIRIT as to what that means to each of us. There is no Christian Law of Sabbath.


22. Jim
February 6, 2006
12:39 AM

Great discussions and post. This truly is a largely misunderstood commandment. Until we realize that only in Christ can be at all righteous, we will continue to follow the ordinances of a man made religion.

What is the spiritual significance for the sabbath? Once you see the picture, you will see how finding our rest in Christ completely fulfills this law.

God bless,

Jim


23. Aaron
February 6, 2006
1:15 AM

I noticed some comments in this thread referring to what has been called “New Covenant Theology.” In what I have read so far from proponents of this view (little, but more and more gradually), not having to keep the Sabbath seems to be one of the driving motivations for this “new” view. It also makes for a very neat argument for credo-baptism. There are many things still being worked out in this theology and many potential problems (I think). To those who are interested and have read some of the arguments for this view, I might offer the following page with several sermons defending the old/traditional baptist covenant view (Jim Renihan & Fred Malone): Click Here - they are the ones from the 2005 Founders Conference Southwest.


24. Stan
February 6, 2006
3:28 AM

Tim,
Where is the evidence that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance? When I was a Seventh-day Adventist, you always heard the cliche about the two ordinances instituted at creation were marriage and the Sabbath. Well, marriage is clearly spelled out. But where is the word Sabbath in Gen. 2:1-3? If you notice that the first six creation days in the Genesis account are always completed by evening and morning, but the seventh day is open-ended. There is no evening and morning. In Hebrews 4:3,4 it is very clear “…And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: and on the seventh day God rested from all his work..”

So our Sabbath rest is complete in Christ, and He is the end of the law to all who believe. (Romans 10:4). Wouldn’t you think if Sabbath was a creation ordinance that there would be some mention of Adam through the rest of the patriarchs keeping the Sabbath. Look at Joseph in Egypt, do you think he kept the Sabbath.? The first mention of the Sabbath is Exodus 16 in connection with the manna, representing Christ as our Bread of Life. The very last mention of the Sabbath is Col. 2:16,17 where Christ is the substance of all the shadows with the Sabbath explicitly being mentioned as a shadow.

The Old Covenant sign was the Sabbath—Remember the Sabbath day. The sign of the New Covenant is the Lord’s supper when God again uses the word remember. “Do this in remembrance of me”

So we are to remember Christ. In Adventism, the Sabbath was worshipped instead of Christ. Shadows always subtract from substance.

Stan Ermshar


25. Colleen
February 6, 2006
3:32 AM

First, as a former Seventh-day Adventist I want to state clearly that my coming to believe Sabbath is not required of Christ-followers in the New Covenant has NOTHING to do with not wanting to keep the day. (That is an assumption I hear often.) I loved the Sabbath and believed it was one of the most precious gifts of my life.

The assumption that Jesus nailed only the “moral” law to the cross and not the entire law, including the decalogue (called the “words of the covenant” in Deuteronomy) is nowhere supported in Scripture. This belief comes from church tradition dating back to the third or fourth century—but not back to apostolic times.

Galatians clearly teaches that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ; now that faith has come, we no longer need it (Gal. 3). Colossians 2 equally clearly discusses the fact that the law was nailed to the cross in the Person of Jesus. Romans 3-8 shows that the law is not part of our righteousness or salvation.

The transfiguration foreshadowed what happened after Jesus’ resurrection—the inauguration of the New Covenant. Jesus, Moses (who represented The Law to the Jews) and Elijah (who represented The Prophets) were transfigured with Jesus. Then a cloud covered the three, and Peter, James, and John who were gazing in awe fell to the ground. A voice from heaven said, “This is my Son; listen to Him!”

Then Jesus told the disciples to arise, and when they looked up, the Law and the Prophets were gone, and Jesus alone stood before them. Ringing in their ears was the echo of the voice of God commanding them to listen to Jesus. On their way down the mtn, Jesus told them not to tell anyone what they had seen and heard until AFTER His resurrection. (see Mattehw 17—this story is also in Mark and Luke.)

Until Jesus died, spilled his blood of the eternal covenant, and rose from the dead, forever breaking the power of death, the Old Covenant was in place. The law and the prophets still had to be observed by Israelites. When Jesus rose from death, however, He fulfilled the Old Covenant. From then on the law and the prophets which testified of Him were obsolete. He would now be the believer’s rule of faith and practice.

The indwelling Holy Spirit would write God’s law (which Jesus showed in Matthew 5-7 was MUCH bigger than the 10 Commandments) on human hearts. Hebrews 4 clarifies that there is a Sabbath rest TODAY for believers—a rest which Israel never entered in spite of centuries of Sabbath-keeping.

Today Sabbath rest is found in Jesus. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus made clear that the real intent of the law was much deeper than moral behavior. True law-keeping/righteousness requires absolute perfection in motive and thought. He was outlining not new standards of behavior; He was showing what life in the Spirit would look like. Only a person born again and brought to spiritual life by God Himself indwelling him could hope to live according to the impossible standards Jesus set.

Similarly, the Sabbath, like the rest of the law (see Luke 24:44) was fulfilled in Jesus. Just as He raised the standard on all the other Old Testament laws, so he raised the bar on the Sabbath. We are to enter Christ’s rest (Hebrews 4); we are to observe Sabbath every single day. Now we move through every activity conscious of Jesus, speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, keeping a song in our hearts, always praising the Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 5: 19-20).

Our lives are not to be divided between sacred and secular; we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1), all we do is to, for, and from Jesus. Taking a day to rest is fine, but it is not required.

When Jesus told the Pharisees in Matthew 13 that one greater than the temple was here, He was claiming to house in Himself the atonement, the sacrifices, the law, the presence of God. “The law is in me; the Sabbath is In ME,” he might as well have said.

As has been pointed out, if the decalogue is for new covenant Christians, then Christendom has no choice but to observe the seventh day in the way the OT commanded—including stoning of those who break the day by leaving their tents, lighting a fire, etc.

The Decalogue, however, was always for the purpose of revealing sin, not of stopping sin. Jesus broke the power of sin and death, and the Holy Spirit in us—the seal of God—give us the resurrection power of Christ, and He makes us new. He makes us moral; He changes our hearts at the deepest level.

Now we live by God Himself and not by an external law! Praise Jesus!

Colleen


26. Passer-by
February 6, 2006
8:22 AM

Colleen: Thank you for blowing away the fog surrounding the Sabbath. I was instructed and encouraged by your comments. Jesus is Lord…over ALL!


27. John Divito
February 6, 2006
8:29 AM

For those who are interested, here are a couple more useful study materials:

1) Joseph Pipa, The Lord’s Day

2) Sam Waldron, “A Critical Introduction to New Covenant Theology” (in PDF format)


28. Davey
February 6, 2006
9:28 AM

Jeremy and passer-by,

I thought I made my point clear in my very short post at the end when I said “We can’t keep the law, no one could - except Christ - so the law points us to Christ, and Christ alone for our salvation.”

I am not saying that we are still to keep the “law” to attain our salvation. I understand that Christ came to fulfill the law and that we find our salvation in Him. I get that.

But I just read 2Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”

This simply means to me that there is great benefit to be found in all of scripture. And I’m not claiming you guys don’t believe that as well. I’m simply saying that the 10 commandments (and the entire OT) are very important because it all points to Christ and it helps us understand the nature of God.

I’m not calling for some sort of legalistic sabbath rule keeping like the seventh dayers. And I know I have some thinking to do on this.

Spugeon said in a commentary: “Our Lord performed many of his noblest cures on the Sabbath, as if to show that the day was ordained to glorify God by yielding benefit to man. If at one time more than another the hailing virtue flows freely from our Lord, it is on that one day in seven which is reserved for holy uses, and is called “the Lord’s Day.” In Luke 14:1-5 he shows how suitable it is that a holy day should be crowned with holy deeds of mercy and love.”

Spurgeon seemed to think one day a week way really a holy day for the Lord. Is this wrong? My simple problem with all of this is: how do we treat one day a week holy if we live it like every other day?

Can’t a person revere the sabbath (one day a week) simply because they love Christ, but not with the intent that they are “working” their way to heaven?


29. Passer-by
February 6, 2006
10:13 AM

Davey: Sorry if you felt I was somehow attacking your views. I was simply responding to the question you asked in your post.

Concerning the Spurgeon quote, he is right that Jesus’ healing on the Sabbath emphasized the redemptize nature of the day, but it goes much further than that. Jesus was also illustrating that in Him the redemption foreshadowed by Sabbath-keeping would be fulfilled. He is the Lord of the Sabbath. By doing “works” on the Sabbath, Jesus clearly sent the message that the Law of the Sabbath had been superceded by Him.

As to your desire to maintain a Sabbath day in your life, I think we are in agreement (see the last paragraph of my post). According to Galatians, you have freedom in Christ, through the Holy Spirit in your heart, to determine what that looks like for you. The simple truth for all of us, though, is that there is no Christian Law concerning the Sabbath, whether as to which day, or how long, or how to express a day of rest. The principle of working for six days and resting on one is certainly valid, but the concept that one particular day of the week is somehow more “holy” than the others, and therefore requires our reverence and obedience, has no support in the New Testament. We are each free in Christ to determine how to “rest” in Christ without fear of displeasing God.


30. Jim
February 6, 2006
10:16 AM

Colleen,

Excellent presentation of this truth. The Sabbath rest is simply found in Jesus Christ Himself. This is to be our experience 24/7.

However, the bible does talk about the Lord’s day. This should not be interpreted as a “Christian Sabbath” but rather a picture that as believers Christ now has preeminence in our lives and should have the first part of everything we are and have.


31. Davey
February 6, 2006
11:03 AM

Thanks for your comments, passer-by. I’m just trying to understand all this. I can see there is much I don’t understand about the differences between Covenant theology, New Covenant theology, etc… Some of this is confusing.

I agree with freedom in Christ: Romans 14:5 “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.”

I’m just not sure that a new covenant view isn’t taking away from a traditional view of the topic a little. Got some reading to do.

Also, thanks for the links above, John.


32. Angela
February 6, 2006
11:25 AM

It is interesting that this is one of the topics since yesterday at church my pastor did a sermon on Sabbath (he’s doing a series on the 10 commandments). He talked mostly about how it is important to rest our bodies and shared that there was a study that revealed that our bodies work better when we rest 1 day out of seven. Unfortunately I don’t know where this study is, but I think the point is that we need to rest. It’s not really a matter anymore of one day being more holy than another and yes, our rest is found in Christ. My question is why would anyone argue with taking a day of rest??? If God said to me, “Angela, you’re a busy girl. You study alot, work a lot, clean alot, and go to so many meetings. Today I want you to rest. You can nap. You can read books. You could even watch a movie.” Why would I disagree?
And if God said this to you, what would stop you?
Life can b so stressful, and sometimes we just need to rest, not necessarily because the 10 commandments say so, but because our bodies say so. (sorry this is lacking in theology and scriptural backup!)


33. Melissa
February 6, 2006
11:32 AM

Davey, you certainly are free to keep any day. Read Romans 14. Scripture is clear that we are not to judge whether one thinks one day is holy or another views all the same. But that is so easy to say…many times those who hold to holy days (as in the sabbath) pass harsh criticism for those who take the opposite view that all days are the same. (Adventists believe you “prove” your loyalty to God by keeping the “7th day” sabbath. It is a part of their gospel of works, and I would NOT hold anything Sam Bacchiocchi says as unadulterated Bible. If you are not familiar with SDA doctrines, you are recommending something that many consider a false religion with a false gospel and a false prophet. Not sure you want to go down that road.) I suppose the judgement could go the other way, though I’ve never see that end.

If you study the sermon on the mount in comparison with the old covenant law, I cannot see how anyone can see the 10 commandments as still binding. The 10 commandments say “don’t murder”, Jesus said don’t be angry without cause. The 10 commandments said “don’t commit adultery”, Jesus said whoever lusts in his heart has already committed adultery. Other laws are mentioned in the same way. The law dealt with people’s external actions, but not so much with one’s heart. I can not murder or steal or take the name of the Lord in vain and still have a lot of hatred and anger and bitterness. I’ve kept the commandments, but certainly have not been transformed by Christ in my heart. Didn’t Jesus call the pharisees “white washed tombs”? Certainly they kept the law and then some, but they were still dead inside. Read Leviticus 23, and you will find that the 7th day sabbath was one of the feast days just like all the other jewish holy days. Yes, all scripture is profitable, and the law is good IF one uses it lawfully. But the purpose of the law is to show one’s need for a savior NOT to make one righteous. Scripture is clear that by the works of the law no man is justified. Read Galatians carefully. I think it says in 7 different ways why the old covenant law has no applicability to the Christian. The law was UNTIL the seed. And that seed is Christ. We follow Christ’s royal law. The stone tablets were called the “ministration of death”. We have to balance everything scripture says and not just take a phrase here or there to completely understand what the law was and what it is. And we certainly have to take the new covenant over the old. Jesus brought in the new covenant with his blood and when we really understand what that means, our lives will know a fullness not possible by merely following rules.


34. Alando
February 6, 2006
11:33 AM

The main question has to center around, Is Sabbath keeping a N.T. teaching? or even is the O.T. Sabbath our N.T. Lord’s day.

Pragmatism doesn’t drive our theology(no one here would allow Bill Hybels, Rick Warren to get away with it, although some of the things they do are beneficial)we don’t look to fruit and benefits to arrive at our theology. There are a lot of Bible scholar’s viewing this thread and one basic rule of interpretation is that the explicit always override the implicit, remember??? Is Sabbath keeping taught didactically in the Epistle’s? Not can it be implicitly observed somewhere in scripture. That would be like using the WoFthers method.

Colleen made an excellent point, if one is going to decide to keep the Sabbath as it was GIVEN in the O.T, at what point do we decide to change how it is to be kept. God gave specific things that were and were not to be done on that day, I see nowhere in Scripture where he relieved any of it’s requirements.

Tim, actually the Sabbath was a ceremonial aspect of the law. The other 9 were moral, which is why you can find any breaking of the 9 as sin, whereas nowhere can you find not keeping the Sabbath as sin in the N.T. Furthermore, Jesus reduced it to two Love Him with everything & love neighbor as self. This is why Paul is telling them in Rom. 14 that one regards one day as more holy than others and others don’t, let each one be convinced in his own mind. Now, if Sabbath was binding and a teaching for the entire church, would Paul teach them to sin, by not making it clear that they should be keeping one day Holy.

Dale Ratzlaff’s book “Sabbath in Christ” is extremely helpful and possibly the best treatment on this topic. www.ratzlaf.com


35. Melissa
February 6, 2006
11:53 AM

Angela, there’s nothing wrong with taking a day of rest for physical renewal, but the problem comes in when trying to tie it to the 10 commandments or to make it some sort of Biblical mandate. It is good to take some down time, but there is not a “correct” day or way to do that. My pastor made the same arguement when he was teaching on the 10 commandments, but I think that is just trying to “principlize” the commandment rather than saying it was what it was and has served it’s purpose as the shadow of Christ. Especially with all the social uproar about the 10 commandments, I think people are wanting a way to show value to all of them rather than truly understanding their purpose.

Regarding the history concern someone mentioned above, if you check out the history of “Sunday” for yourself, all you will discover is a legalization of a practice Christians were already carrying out. Even scripture mentions Christians meeting on the first day…not in a sabbath-type observance. There is an excellent book by DW Canright that can be read online about the history of “the Lord’s day”. Find the URL at: http://www.truthorfables.com/The_Lord’s_Canright.htm


36. Jeremy
February 6, 2006
12:31 PM

When you teach people that we are to keep the Ten Commandments (rather than the New Covenant), then you are setting them up to be led into cults such as Seventh-day Adventism, which teaches a false gospel, has a false prophet, teaches that Satan bears our sins as the scapegoat of Lev. 16 and other heretical doctrines, and yet claims to be a Christian church! When the Adventist comes along and says, “If you believe in keeping the Ten Commandments, why don’t you keep them as written by God’s own finger on the stones?” the person who has been taught the 10 C’s has no answer for the Adventist. The Adventist will then tell him that he should be keeping the seventh day (sunset Friday to sunset Saturday) holy just as the 4th commandment explicitly states!

This is the main way that they get converts into their cult—by convincing them that they should be keeping the seventh day of the week holy, as the Ten Commandments say.

And sadly, Christians who teach the 10 Cs are setting people up for this deception!

That is one reason why it is such an important issue to understand the New Covenant!!!

Jeremy


37. Ken
February 6, 2006
12:37 PM

Thanks to Angela and Melissa for addressing the issue of physical rest. Angela is right to point out that we need to see the need for rest and Melissa is right to point out that we do not do it because it is in the Decalogue.

Sadly, no debate about Sabbath (this one is evidence of it) hardly ever addresses that one of the reasons behind the fourth commandment was the mercy of God in giving us physical rest. I agree with New Covenant theology on the issue of the Law but new covenanters never speak of the need for physical rest. People get so caught up in what day of the week Sabbath is or should be and how much can be done on it and the fact that Jesus is our Sabbath, that the matter of physical rest is completely ignored. Someone should do a study of Jesus’ exhortation to “come apart and rest awhile” so we don’t just come apart. Christians, especially those in pastoral ministry, are in danger of burning themselves out by never resting and teaching their congregations to live in the same manner. We have conformed ourselves to the world in this regard - we brag about our hectic schedules and act and talk like God cannot get His work done if we take a break. It kills us and dishonours Him. It also robs us of the ability and time to meditate, reflect, pray, think, play, spend time with our spouses and children and do the immense amount of work that there is to do, very well. Let us not develp a theology of Sabbath that damages our ability to recharge our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual batteries. Jesus is our rest but we are too busy to rejoice in it.

By the way - I pastor an inner city church where the demands of the job have taken a serious toll on me in the last few years and I am only now coming to realize that I have ignored an important part of my spiritual maturation.

Thanks Angela.


38. Colleen
February 6, 2006
12:59 PM

The bottom line in this discussion is the New Covenant. Covenant theology as typically taught in the Reformed tradition still clings to the idea that there is one overriding covenant between God and humanity, and the Mosaic covenant was just one representation of that covenant.

Romans and Galatians, however, painstakingly explain that the covenant God made with Abraham still stands, while the Mosaic covenant was temporary and intended to bring an awareness of sin back into humanity.

God’s covenant with Abraham was unconditional. He Himself ratified the covenant by moving among the sacrificial animals in the form of a smoking pot and flaming furnace (Father and Son) while Abraham slept. None of his faulty promises contributed to God’s covenant with him.

The Mosaic covenant was conditional. The entire Sinai covenant was made between God and Israel with Israel’s faulty promises constituing one half of the agreement: “All that you have said, we will do.” Their promises had no hope of fulfillment. They were faulty. This, in fact, was the point of the New Covenant. There’s NOTHING a human can do or intend or promise that in any way will be righteous or perfect or strong enough to keep the covenant with God. It was doomed to failure—and that was what God intended. The Mosaic covenant was designed to INCREASE sin, not to decrease it (Romans 7:8-12), and to drive Israel to trust His sovereign promises to save them by His singular power.

The New Covenant was put into effect in the fullness of time when Jesus died, rose, and ascended to sit at the Father’s right hand. Prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34, the New Covenant supereded and replaced the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus and the Father again kept God’s eternal covenant with mankind. By dying and rising from death, Jesus fulfilled humanity’s obligations under the law—including death for disobedience and perfect righteousness for eternal life—and with promises which are better than ours, he and the Father keep the covenant. We who accept Jesus’ sacrifice are in Christ, and in Him His fulfillment of the law and His righteousness completely cover us.

Hebrews 8:7: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” Again in Hebrews 8:13: “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” (Remember, Hebrews was written to Jewish believers before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.)

Hebrews 7 goes into great detail to explain how Jesus’ priestly ministry is completely different from the Levitical priesthood. He was appointed not by descent but by an oath of God. “Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarnatee of a better covenant” (Hebrews 7:22).

Jesus was not from the proper tribe for priests; he was from Judah, not Levi. This fact completely shattered the Mosaic law. Hebrews 7:12: “For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.”

The New Covenant fulfills God’s unilateral promise to Abraham. It also replaces the Sinai covenant completely by giving us Jesus—his incarnation, death, resurrection, and glorification—as our rule of faith and practice. The rest symbolized by the fourth commandment is now reality in Jesus.

The fourth commandment was never about bodies needing rest. It was always about trusting God. God said in essence to Israel, “The pagans around you work ceaselessly to please their gods and to merit prosperity. I will bless you and propser you far beyond your neighbors if you trust Me. You will remember that I am the One who provides all you have by sitting in your tents one day in seven. It doesn’t matter whether it’s lambing season or lentil harvest, you will sit in your tents. It doesn’t matter whether or not a thunderstorm threatens your wheat crop, you will sit in your tents. And I will prosper you beyond all accounting—and no one, not the Canaanites around you nor you yourselves will be able to credit YOU with your success. You and they will know your success if from Me, the Lord Your God.”

That trust for everything symbolized God’s complete provision for us in the person of Jesus. When He came, that symbolic day of rest was replaced with the Real Thing—Jesus Himself!

I have nothing but deep respect for the reformers and for their resurrection, so to speak of the the true gospel. I also believe, however, that they did not quite uncover the radical completion of the New Covenant. While many of them really came close, in reality the function of the decalogue somewhat escaped them. I believe that historically people have been afraid to say the decalogue no longer applies because it sounds too scary. If the decalogue is not replaced by Jesus, however, then the fourth commandment MUST be observed, and not by transference to Sunday. The Bible never changed Sabbath to Sunday. If the decalogue is still a standard of behavior for us, Christians should be observing the seventh day as a holy day the way the OT taught Israel to observe it.

In Jesus, however, morality becomes a way of life—and resting in Christ becomes much more all-consuming and impacting of every moment of living than the seventh-day Sabbath ever was. Jesus is greater than—the Creator of—the Sabbath. It’s always been only about Him. Now we have Him and no longer need to honor the shadow of promise.

In reality, however, the Holy Spirit holds us to a much more exacting standard than does the law. We can trust Him to keep and to to renew us.

The law still functions as the “proof”, along with the prophets, of who Jesus is. Without the law, we would have no good way to identify Jesus as the true Messiah. He is the only One who has actually fulfilled every shadow of the Mosaic law—including the Sabbath.

Praise Jesus!

Colleen


39. Angela
February 6, 2006
1:07 PM

Right on Ken! Rest is so important. I really don’t think the issue should be if the Bible mandate rest. Of course we don’t have to rest in a certain way or on a specific day, but I don’t see why it would have to be that now since rest isn’t a command that we shouldn’t rest anymore. In Matthew 11:28, it says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” I don’t know if I am interpreting this out of context, but I think something can be said for the fact that it says come. In order to come to Christ and receive rest from Him, we have to stop what we are doing. And, often, in order to hear what God is saying to us, we have to stop and rest. I just think it’s a bit odd that we would argue whether or not it is a mandate to rest anymore.
I have learned personally just in my first semester in Seminary how important it is to rest. When I don’t take time (more than an hour or two) to rest, I am less in tune with God, I try to do everything on my own power, and I am so stressed that I have a harder time serving His people. Resting helps to put everything back into perspective. And I do think it is true that we become prideful about how much we have in our schedules. And we can’t do it all. God is the only one that completely finishes His to do list. We’re finite, he’s infinite. He rested, Jesus rested, and we should rest too.


40. Ken
February 6, 2006
1:10 PM

Those who trust God can rest their bodies. Let the pagans work themselves to death for whatever spiritual benefits they think it gives them. We do not need to. Since we rest spiritually we rest otherwise as well. If we do not see Jesus as our Sabbath rest we will perform to earn His favour.

Complete rest spiritually enables physical rest periodically. A denial of our spiritual rest in Christ produces the kind of performance theology that marks much of N.A. Christianity.


41. Colleen
February 6, 2006
1:14 PM

Ken, I just saw your comment above. I agree with you about the need for physical rest. Jesus said in Matthew 11:28 to come to Him, and He would give us rest. Taking time to sit with Him and to set aside bysness to rest in His presence is definitely part of a Christ-followers life. Jesus Himself often went away alone to pray.

Yet a Christ-followers rest is not prescribed. Just as we learn to trust God to give us the work He created in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:10) instead of pursuing things we think would be good ideas, we learn also to take the time to sit at His feet and to let the worries and demands of life go for a time.

I have no problem with people spending one in seven in a completely different way. It’s just that human physical needs were not the point, I believe, of the Sabbath command. The point is learning to rest in Jesus. I have found, to my complete amazement, that although I am busier than I have ever been and have more demands on my time and my emotions than ever before, God is holding me in internal peace in ways I never used to experience when I “took” one in seven. He is lessening the inner anxiety that used to be a constant background “noise” in my life. And yes, He does provide ways and times for physical and mental “rest”. It just doesn’t look like what I used to think Sabbath rest looked like!

By all means, we must rest physically. Sabbath, however, is about a rest that goes deeper and is more empowering than physical rest. I can’t explain it in mere words; I just know I have a most amazing experience of Jesus becoming my rest that renews me emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically in ways taking a day off never did.

The day is good, but true Sabbath rest transforms the most grueling days—even “sabbaths”!

Colleen


42. Mitch
February 6, 2006
1:20 PM

I worked for a group of people who would look me right in the eye and tell me the biggest, bold-faced lies imaginable. They used foul language and profanity as a rite of passage. They were jealous of other people’s achievements and wished ill-will against the achievers. They were thieves. There was no consideration for any of the Ten Commandments to be found, let alone the 4th.

People today are not just throwing away the 4th Commandment, they’re throwing them all away. I think that observing the Sabbath (and acknowledging the associated days of Creation mentioned in the 4th commandment) is not as detrimental as some think.

The Sabbath commandment is linked to Creation. God rests after Creation. And that’s part of the problem for many Christians.

Many Christians really, deep down, don’t believe in Creation. They believe in Evolution, which is, in scientific terms, the result of complete and total random chance, with no governing agency involved in any way whatsoever.

Parents want their children to do well on the SAT and ACT college entrance exams, and so, understanding evolutionary science becomes an imperative. Parents reserve weekend lip-service to faith and values, as long as it doesn’t get in the way.

Some parents then try to marry the two ideas into Creationist-Evolution, which is a contradiction of terms. As soon as you involve a governing agency of any kind, overseeing Evolution, it’s no longer Evolution.

These Christians then trot out the absurd mantra, “Creation is based on faith, and Evolution is based on Science.”

Marrying Creation to Evolution is like trying to take a square and a circle and create a geometric “Squircle.” In geometry, squares and circles are mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as the Squircle and there is no such thing as Create-volution.

So, we end up teaching children that they evolved from monkeys, and then we’re surprised when they act like monkeys.

We tell the children that they evolved randomly from something that crawled out of a swamp, but when they die, they go to heaven. We end up with a Jesus dying for people no Higher Power ever created. Christians end up all dressed up on Saturday or Sunday morning with no place to go.

So, in conclusion, the Ten Commandments are an “all or nothing” proposition. The Ten Commandments are not something on the menu that says, “With nine you get eggroll.”


43. Kyle
February 6, 2006
1:57 PM

I appreciate this post, Tim, as a college student who struggles to keep the Sabbath. The problem is not so much that it’s hard for me to rest on Sunday, but that it’s difficult for me to actually keep up with my work the other six days of the week!

I think this thread reveals a lot of the problems surrounding the evangelical church’s understanding of the place of the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments in the life of Christians today. Antinomianism is on the upswing, and sometimes we act as though the Reformers were backwards buffoons for maintaining the importance of the Ten Commandments in holy living, as I think the following illustrates:

The former SDA apologist Robert Brinsmead said it well. “Those that hold to the idea that a 24 hour period of time makes any difference on a round world are about as outmoded as the flat earth society.”

Apparently, three days made a huge difference on our round world, for on the third day He rose again! His resurrection, by the way, is why we celebrate the Sabbath on the first day of the week rather than on the last. The church gathered on Sundays to break bread (e.g., Acts 20:7), celebrating the Lord’s resurrection and the inauguration of the on-going redemption of creation—which ties into the creation aspect of the Sabbath ordinance.

The Sabbath is a foretaste of the glory we presently await, a day when we gather together with the people of God to glorify our God and Savior, and to savor the sweet fellowship of our brethren and Christ which shall be eternally multiplied at the end of the age and the consummation of history.

Why should we steal this “Day of Rest and Gladness” from ourselves and our heavenly family for more sweat and toil?


44. James
February 6, 2006
1:59 PM

What of “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day?” Had John not boned up on his New Testament?


45. Dallas Pymm
February 6, 2006
2:16 PM

Wow. Some great stuff going on here. I am very impressed by a lot of these posts. This is a subject that I have thought a lot about and need to study more. I thought Colleen did a great job in presenting her views.

I do have one observation. Revelation 1:9-11
9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

Clearly John recognizes a day that he calls the Lord’s. I think this implies that he must have had a day he observed as God’s. Although it says nothing about which day it was, it may be that he had one day that he gave completely to God. It could also mean that all days are for the Lord, and he simply said this out of habbit. I do not believe he did this in his other letters though. I think he simply had a day where he devoted most of his time in study, prayer, and perhaps edifying fellowship. I think this would benefit all of us, and is something I would very much like to persue.

Any thoughts?


46. Dallas Pymm
February 6, 2006
2:24 PM

Sorry James. I did not see your post. Consider mine a response to yours. :o)


47. Alando
February 6, 2006
2:26 PM

Mitch,

The rest in the Creation account is descriptive not prescriptive. It ONLY speaks of God resting, giving a desription of what he did.

Also, there is no mentioning of a Sabbath for man in Genesis, the Abrahamic covenant anywhere prior to the Decalogue, so the Sabbath command does not tie back to creation. You’re reading that into the text(Eisegesis) Otherwise prove me wrong…

If you follow your logic and say it is prescriptive of what Christians must do, then we should do everything that God did in the first six days, correct? I mean how are you to say since he ‘s giving us a prescription or pattern to follow, you just choose to ONLY follow his rest pattern. See the point, it is a desription of what God did in creating this universe and us.

The idea that Christians are evolutionist and don’t believe in a literal six day creation, because they don’t keep the Sabbath is seriously flawed. Sorry!

This is the problem when it comes down to issues like this, one picks and chooses based on what suits them to guide their faith and practice & one allows Scripture to guide his faith and practice.

There has been many explicit references to Scriptures regarding the topic concerning Sabbath: Matt. 11, Col. 2, Gal. 1,3,5, Rom. 14, Heb. 4, Acts 15 and I have not seen one Sabbath Day advocate defend their position against the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles. They have all been pragmatic reasons. I’m guessing now that if it works and has benefit(rested bodies)it doesn’t matter what Scripture teaches. I agree with everyone that we need to rest our bodies, however, I must ask what are we so busy doing daily that we can’t rest. Somehow I’m missing it, let’s see on a daily basis: Work, dinner, family or personal devotions, Scripture reading, bed. What else is there?

Lastly Mitch, I would say if you seriously want to keep the 4th commandment, keep it in the way that God prescribed it to be kept, thus don’t relax it to fit your likings of what you want to do on that day?

Do you accept the challenge?


48. Passer-by
February 6, 2006
3:10 PM

Alando:

Since I’m not a regular here, and probably won’t come by often (hence, “Passer-by”), I am going to take the opportunity for a gentle confrontation (I hesitate to call it a rebuke).

I appreciate your comments and insights, but your attitude tends toward being condescending and sarcastic. I thought that in your earlier post (#34), and I sense it again in your last post (#47). This is a friendly discussion among brothers and sisters, and you don’t need to add the questions and challenges that seem a bit “sneering.” Just be yourself.

I offer that comment in love. It comes from one who has been similarly rebuked more than once, and who is trying to learn how to be authentic as a blogger (an old dog of 55 learning some new tricks).


49. Jeremy
February 6, 2006
3:46 PM

John did mention the Lord’s Day in Rev. 1. All it means, though, is that the Early Church called Sunday the Lord’s Day, meaning the day the Lord was Resurrected.

They also gathered together to celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection on that day. However, that is only what they chose to do voluntarily. There is no command in Scripture saying that we HAVE to observe Sunday in any way, especially as a sacred Rest day, a Holy day, or a Sabbath day!

In fact, Romans 14 tells us that it is perfectly fine to regard every day alike!

They chose to celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection on the day of His resurrection—nothing more, nothing less. It was a tradition that most Christians practiced —they gathered together to worship on that day.

Becuase Jesus was raised on Sunday, it was known as the Lord’s Day, and thus John called it that.

Jeremy


50. Alando
February 6, 2006
4:23 PM

Thanks Passer-by. I not only appreciate but receive your rebuke. I apologize for any offense caused to anyone viewing this thread. Just thought it was out of bounds to be considered an evolutionist because I don’t hold the Sabbath observance view, nonetheless, it doesn’t warrant me being sarcastic nor condescending. Like yourself I recently came across the thread and am new to the blogosphere debating. I’ll refrain from posting, and get before the Lord on this area of my heart. Please do not allow my actions to deter you from benefitting from brothers and sisters in Christ. I am not a regular poster here.


51. Dallas Pymm
February 6, 2006
4:53 PM

Jeremy. Thank you for the response. I agree that it is likely that it could have been Sunday. You seem pretty confident that it was in fact Sunday. The comments in my Bible also say this. I am not disagreeing with you, but could you tell me why you and many others feel this way? I am not a SDA, I just wanted to know why people believe John was referring to Sunday in this verse.

Anyone else who know is more the welcome to answer also. Thanks.


52. Stephen Wylie-Young
February 6, 2006
5:25 PM

The place of the 10 Commandments in the life of the Christian today cannot be considered without reference to the Scripture’s definition of sin. Christians understand sin as any transgression of God’s law. God gave us His law, specifically His, so-called, moral law to help us understand Him, His nature. When we behave contrary to God’s nature, we sin. God’s nature is unchanging and so moral transgression will always be the same. Christ bore the punishment for sin on the cross, that is, all transgressions by sinful man as a result of their rejection of God - the sin of a new covenant believer is the same as the sin of an old covenant believer.
The clear message of the NT (in fact the whole Bible) is that we cannot earn God’s acceptance - the law (a mirror or reflection of God’s perfect nature) was given to us to reveal our sin, to drive us to Christ. Where there is no law there is no sin.
Those who argue that God’s moral law (as written by the finger of God on stone and written on our hearts) is no longer binding must explain how God’s nature has changed.
They must also explain what law the NT writers referred to. For example…
James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”. Here James must be referring to the moral law, the Ten Commandments, because he mentions two of them in the context.
Rom 2:14-15 “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them…”. The law written on the hearts of the Gentiles was the moral law (see the sins referred to in the context), the Ten Commandments. Would not Paul’s readers have understood this?

Phil - In Gal 4 and other NT passages, the Scripture is not asking the hearers to abandon the “Sabbath”. He is rebuking those who, throughout the NT, wanted to add to the requirements of the law for Gentile converts (e.g. circumcision) and had even added requirements for Jews e.g. additional Sabbaths (beyond the once/wk observation) and various festivals/feast days. Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount had to correct the Jewish leaders on similar misinterpretations – His teaching on the Law was clear. Matt 22:37-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments”. Was not Jesus summarizing the Ten Commandments? The first four commandments define our duty to our Creator and the final six our duty to our neighbor.

‘Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week.’ Ignatius


53. Linda
February 6, 2006
7:02 PM

I keep the Sabbath and I find it truly a delight. I look forward to it every week. It is not legalism. Legalism is following the commands of men. The ten commandments, including the Sabbath are forever. Isaiah 66 says we will keep the Sabbath in heaven. The Lord does not change. The sabbaths which were done away with such as mentioned in Col 2 are referring to the cerimonial sabbaths. These were no longer needed after the cross. You can try to rationalize it away as much as you like but they are still in effect. The new covenant God says He will put His laws in our hearts (if you let Him!) For more information check out http://www.Sabbathtruth.com. Have a Happy Sabbath! I do.
Linda


54. Dave Curell
February 6, 2006
7:10 PM

Dear Mr. Challies,

B. B. Warfield called federal (covenant) theology the, “architectonic principle” of the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Johannes Cocceius is understood by some to be the ‘father of federal theology’ and perhaps by all to be it’s primary contributor yet he did not believe that the Mosaic Sabbath was binding on the Christian. For this he was called antinomian.
Cocceius, Calvin, Luther, Bunyan are all big names. Yet it appears likely that they none of them would subscribe to the WCF on the issue of the Sabbath. This gives me cause to pause.
You say you can’t get past the ‘why only nine of ten’ question. Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Perhaps your true obstacle is not the scripture but the system through which you view it. Perhaps you are cutting the non-fitting corners of the sheet of truth to fit your systematic bed.
The WCF could be wrong. It’s architectonic principle might contain bugs. Your difficult question may only exist because your system led you to ask it. If the system contains incorrect presuppositions it will lead you to ask the wrong questions.
History, or my limited knowledge of it, seems to say that the WCF codified Sabbath observance for the Christian more than any document prior, including the Bible. Perhaps the divines were correct, I believe they were not. All I can say for sure is that it fits well into their system.

Warmly,
Dave Curell


55. Colleen
February 6, 2006
7:17 PM

Stephen, the problem with equating the Decalogue with God’s eternal “moral law” is two-fold. First, Scripture nowhere supports this definition. To Jews, both then and now, the “law” is the entire Torah. The 10 Commandments are not separated out as God’s eternal moral law. In fact, they are called the words of the covenant (meaning the Sinai covenant) in the Torah, and Galatians 3 clearly shows that the law was given 430 years after Abraham until the Seed (Jesus) would come.

In addition, in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus clearly expanded the law. He not only expanded many of the 10 Commandments, He expanded other laws not listed in the 10. He made it very clear that true morality goes to the hearts and motives of people and is never measured by behavior. Righteousness is not evaluated by our good deeds.

Second, the law God wrote on the tables of stone with His finger is not The Eternal Law. God didn’t write those commandments until millennia after Creation. Further, those tables of stone are nowhere to be found today. (Imagine what an icon they would have been had God allowed them to be accessible!) As Paul explains in Galatians, those tables of stone, the heart of God’s covenant with Israel—the conditional Mosaic Covenant—were temporary. They represented the covenant that God established with israel and that lasted until the Seed came.

The Decalogue was only an elementary outline of general good behavior. As I mentioned earlier, the Sermon on the Mount revealed far more of God’s Law than the Decalogue did. In fact, the entire New Testament reveals a far more comprehnsive morality than the law ever did. The NT demands that we live by the Spirit—that we give up our control and our striving and submit to God’s personal and detailed discipline and direction.

It is such a straw-man argument to assume that people are straying into antinomianism by saying the 10 Commandments are not our rule of practice in the New Testament. A true Christ-follower takes morality and living by the Spirit very seriously.

If the Decalogue were God’s Eternal Law, then it would be on a level with Almighty God—eternal and undending. Quite on the contrary, God created the Decalogue hundreds of years after He created the world. He summarized civil behavior to bring people into an awareness of their own sinfulness.

Romans 5 shows that even though people from the time of Adam to the time of Moses did not sin by breaking a command—only Adam was guilty of that sin until the law was given—still they were sinful because they were In Adam. But God did not hold them guilty of sins for which they were unaware. They were NOT innocent; they were doomed and sinners by nature. Still, they were not guilty of breaking the law.

God’s Eternal Law is Himself. He is, in Himself, eternal Justice, Mercy, Grace, Wrath, Love, Life, LIght..all His attributes are eternally, intrinsically Him. The Decalogue was an elementary and simplified primer given to truly fallen mankind to begin to teach them that they were guilty of intrinsic sin. God gave them the law so they would become aware of their sin and of their inability to do His will.

Now we have Jesus Himself—eternal God, the Living, Eternal Law—acting as our Law. Because we are awakened in Him and reconnected to Him through Jesus’ blood, we have access to the Father by one Spirit. We don’t need a temporary, abridged version of the eternal law of God to convict us of sin or to show us how to live.

True, the decalogue is still useful for pointing out sin to people who haven’t met Jesus. But once we are in Him, we are to live by the Spirit (Romans 8).

The only reason I can imagine that people desire to “hang onto the declague” is the fourth commandment. The NT is far more detailed than the 10 Commandments in terms of God’s expectations for us when we are in Him. The fourth commandment is the sticky point.

Unless we understand the asonishing revelation of Hebrews, Galatians, Colossians, Romans, Ephesians, etc., we don’t really see that Jesus actually fulfilled all the OT law. He fulfilled the promise of the Sabath shadow. In Him we find our eternal rest.

None of this negates a “day off” to rest, meditate, etc. But Romans 14 clarifies that such a day is NOT mandated. Jesus Himself transforms the way we live. We are completely new creatures in Christ. We are spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead.

We’re not throwing out morality. We are, rather, embracing the Eternal, Living Law of Morality instead of the stone condensed version that was intended for the specific purpose of educating Israel of their sinfulness. It was never intended to bring them into righteosness. It was always intended to hold them in check and to cause them to be driven to God and His promises. The law was always impossible to keep.

Now the Living Law keeps us, and He is faithful to complete what He begins in us (Phil 1:6). We respond to His sovereign grace by offering our bodies as living sacrifices to Him for His purposes (Romans 12:1).

Colleen


56. Colleen
February 6, 2006
7:23 PM

Linda, one comment re: Isaiah 66: it clearly says that people will gather to worhsip not only from Sabbath to Sabbath but from New Moon to New Moon. These prophecies must be read in light of Jesus’ fulfillment of the ceremonial days of Israel.

Revelation 21 and 22 both state unequivocally that there is no need of the sun or the moon in the New Jesrusalem because the Lamb Himself will be their light. There “is no night there”. Without night, there are no days.

Furthermore, eternity is not undending time. Eternity has no time. There will be no passing days in heaven. There will be no eternal observation of the seventh-day Sabbath or of New Moons.

Those celebrations were always shadows of Christ Himself. When we understand that Jesus Is the reality of those shadows, Isaiah 66 makes sense. We will all gather to worship and praise Jesus Himself endlessly for eternity. In Him those powerful shadows have substance. We will not gather to worship Him for one-seventh of eternity. Our entire eternal future will consist of our worship and honoring of Him.

Colleen


57. Ellen
February 6, 2006
7:30 PM

The sabbaths which were done away with such as mentioned in Col 2 are referring to the cerimonial sabbaths.

Chapter and verse on that, please?

Isaiah 66 says we will keep the Sabbath in heaven.

Since Christ is our Sabbath Rest, it would stand to reason that we will, indeed, keep

and Isaiah 66:23 says (the only time Sabbath is mentioned in Isaiah 66, ESV): From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,

Any rational reading knows that means “from Saturday to Saturday.” If I told you that I was going to fast from Sunday to Sunday, you would understand that I meant every day in between. How can you read that we are going to keep the Sabbath only?

The Fourth Commandment says, “but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates”

I’m assuming that you stay home on your Sabbath? You don’t cook, do dishes, go to church, take a walk with your family? And nobody does work for you. ANYBODY.

The Sabbath wasn’t set up for to be a convenient time to go to church. It was a day of rest. Actually, yesterday - I Sabbathed. I skipped church. I slept in. I sat in once place and read on line, read the Bible, plaed a few games. It was good and I felt great.

Is that what you mean? Because I don’t intend to do that every week.


58. Linda
February 6, 2006
7:42 PM


As far as The Lords Day is concerned lets let the Bible interpret itself. Matther 12:8 says the Son of Man is the Lord also of the Sabbath. If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, the Sabbath must the the Lords’s day.


59. Linda
February 6, 2006
8:11 PM

This passage, Col2:16, 17 is one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible. One principle of Bible interpretation is that you do not allow what may be somewhat unclear to keep you from doing what you understand. The Bible is plain on the Sabbath.. It was given at creation (Gen2:1-3). Jesus observed it (Luke 4:16). Paul observed it (Acts 13:42-44), and it will be observed in heaven (Isaiah 66:22,23). The Bible mentions two kinds of sabbaths. The seventh- day Sabbath and the yearly sabbaths. The seventh-day Sabbath, instituted at creation and part of the Ten Commandment law, is a weekly reminder of the loving, all-powerful Creator. The yearly Sabath relates specifically to the history of Israel. Col 2: 16,17 specifically states “Let no one judge you regarding sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come.” The seventh-day Sabbath is a menorial of creation not a shadow of something to come. Heb 10:1 connects the law of shadows to the animal sacrifice. Ezekial 45:17 used the exact same expression in the exact same order as Col 2:16,17 and connects it all with the ceremonial systems of feasts and sacrifices (meat offerings, drink offerings, feasts, new moons, and sabbaths to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Lev 23:3 discusses the Seventh-day Sabbath. Lev 23:5-32 discusses the ceremonial sabaths (passover, verse 5; unleavened bread, verse 6; wave sheaf, verse 10; first fruits, verse 17; trumpets, verse 24; Day of atonement, verses 27-32: tabernacles, verses 34-36) Both the feast of the trumpets and the Day of Atonement there are specifically called sabbaths. These annual sabbaths were intimately connected to events foreshadowing Christ’s death and His Second Coming. They were designed by God to be shadows or pointers to the coming Messiah. Lev 23:37 uses the language of Col 2:16,17 to describe these ceremonial sabbaths. Lev 23:38 distinguishes the ceremonial sabbaths from the seventh-day Sabbaths by using the expression “Beside the sabbaths of the Lord.” Since Christ has come the shadowy sabbaths of the ceremonial law have found their fulfillment in Him. The seventh-day Sabbath continues to lead us back to the Creator God who made us. God’s people will keep it as a distinguishing sign of their relationship to Him (Rev 14:12, Exekial 20:12,20)
Linda


60. Brian...formerly voiceofthesheep
February 6, 2006
8:21 PM

“Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.” - Romans 14:1-6

Paul appears to speak right on point conerning this issue. Granted, he is also talking about those who are weak in the faith concerning their being convicted not to eat certain foods. His main point in this passage, as you will see if you read on through chapter 14, is we are not to judge another brother or sister who has a conviction concerning food or observance of certain days…and the brother or sister who has that conviction is not to try to impose it on those brothers and sisters who don’t share in that conviction.

The implication also is that those who are convicted not to eat certain things and who regard certain days above others (new moons, festivals, sabbaths) are the ones who are weaker in the faith. Any thoughts?


61. Ellen
February 6, 2006
8:29 PM

Brain, that would be the plain reading, wouldn’t it?

Linda, you misquoted Isaiah again.


62. Linda
February 6, 2006
10:07 PM

Ellen wrote:

Since Christ is our Sabbath Rest, it would stand to reason that we will, indeed, keep

and Isaiah 66:23 says (the only time Sabbath is mentioned in Isaiah 66, ESV): From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,

Any rational reading knows that means “from Saturday to Saturday.” If I told you that I was going to fast from Sunday to Sunday, you would understand that I meant every day in between. How can you read that we are going to keep the Sabbath only?

Ellen, Conversely, if I told you I was going to celebrate Christmas to Christmas would you think I was going to celebrate Christmas 365 days a year?

Linda


63. Jeremy
February 6, 2006
10:48 PM

Dallas Pymm, the early church fathers around the time of John used the term “the Lord’s Day” to refer to Resurrection Day, or Sunday. Since it is known that it was a specific term coined by and used by the Early Church to refer to Sunday, that seems to be the most common interpretation of Rev. 1.

By the way, everyone, the link to sabbathtruth.com posted by Linda, is actually an SDA web site, although they try to hide that fact. It is operated by Amazing Facts, a very cultic ministry run by Doug Batchelor, a Seventh-day Adventist. BEWARE!

They refuse to say they are SDA at that website, and even have a link saying “Where can I find a Sabbath keeping church in North America?” which takes you to an ADVENTIST church locator. Very deceptive. And they try to sell you a book by the SDA false prophetess Ellen G. White. Once again, they call her E.G. White hoping you don’t figure out that it’s Ellen White.

Jeremy


64. Linda
February 7, 2006
12:01 AM

Jeremy says:

“Dallas Pymm, the early church fathers around the time of John used the term “the Lord’s Day” to refer to Resurrection Day, or Sunday. Since it is known that it was a specific term coined by and used by the Early Church to refer to Sunday, that seems to be the most common interpretation of Rev. 1.”

If that were true John would not have used the phrase “first day of the week” in his Gospel which was written approximately the same time. The ony day that John knew as the “Lords day” by the end of the first century when he wrote the book of Revelation is the Sabbath. And we know that this only day which Christ proclaims Himself to “Lord.” Matt 12:8 “For the Son of man is lord of the Sabbath”

Jeremy says:

“They refuse to say they are SDA at that website, and even have a link saying “Where can I find a Sabbath keeping church in North America?” which takes you to an ADVENTIST church locator. Very deceptive. “

If they take you to an Adventist locator that doesn’t sound like they are trying to hide anything. Besides, the website is about the SABBATH not the SDA church. Jeremy, I hate to say it but you sound a little paranoid. Let people make up their own mind.


65. Savon
February 7, 2006
12:01 AM

Great topic!

If one wants to keep the Sabbath I see no problem with it, just don’t judge others who are not convinced that they should keep it. One thing that isn’t being addressed is the lowering of the Sabbath command. I’ve heard many say that they have kept or still keeping the Sabbath. God gave specific’s of what was not to be done on the Sabbath.

Here’s a list:

Exodus 16:29, And the Lord said to Moses: “Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Stay home.

Exodus 16:23, “This is what the Lord meant: tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning. No cooking.

Exodus 20:10 “On the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord your God; and in it you shall do not any work; you or your son or your daughter, or your male servant, your female servant, your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.” No work.

Exodus 35:1-3 “These things are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”

It also says in Jeremiah 17:27: “If you do not listen to Me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day.” No carrying a load anywhere.

Nehemiah 10 says: “As for the people of the land who bring wares or any grain on the Sabbath day to sell, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or a holy day.” No buying . No selling.


Isaiah 58:13-14 “If because of the Sabbath you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord honorable, and shall honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure and speaking your own word.” Your agenda is out.

So you can’t go anywhere; you can’t cook anything; you can’t do any work; you can’t build a fire; you can’t carry a load; you can’t buy anything; you can’t sell anything; you can’t eat out, because you can’t go anywhere; you can’t even have anything delivered because you can’t buy it, unless it’s free; you can’t do anything YOU want; you can’t make any plans. This was serious business folks and to lower it by any means would be offensive to God.

If the Sabbath command is in effect, no one can redefine how it is to be kept, no more than redifining the other 9 to whatever one decides how they should be kept.

Furthermore, according to Leviticus 24:32, the Sabbath was to be from evening until evening, sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

Lastly, if you violated the Sabbath, several scriptures said you were to be put to death. Others said you were to be cut off from Israel.

On the Sabbath they didn’t go to the place of worship.


66. Passer-by
February 7, 2006
12:24 AM

Linda: I’m not nearly as smart as everyone here, but I’m smart enough to sense that something is just not right with your answer to Jeremy. Forgive me if I’m wrong about that, but perhaps it would be helpful if you could let us know your theological allegiance in this discussion, whether a non-alligned Sabbatarian or an SDA apologist. Thanks.

Colleen: Your comments have been very instructive and helpful, and make a great deal of sense to me. Are there any specific books or resources that have influenced your thinking that you could share. Thanks.


67. Stan
February 7, 2006
12:33 AM

Savon,
Those are good points. Those who would impose Sabbatarianism on us whether Sat. or Sunday, just won’t admit that the New Testament in all the epistles is completely silent as to how to instruct the Gentile world how to keep Sabbath under the New Covenant. Since the fourth commandment is the longest and most prominent commandment in the decalogue, and Ezekiel even says the Sabbath was the sign of the covenant, then, why on something the Old Testament continually kept reminding us of with all of those passages listed above, then is it not strange that no command to keep any day of the week is given. The only obvious explanation for this is that the Old Covenant sign is the Sabbath—“Remember the Sabbath day…” whereas the next time God said remember was in the words of our Lord “Do this in Remembrance of Me”
What could be clearer than that? The shadows are all gone. We have our eternal Sabbath rest in Christ.

Linda,
Let me ask you a question. If we will be keeping the Sabbath in the New Earth and as Isaiah 66 says also keeping New Moons, and since Revelation clearly states that there will be no night there, then how can you know when the Sabbath starts if there is never any night. The moon cannot shine in the light of the Son.

Also, the SDA church has historically said that all those who will continue to worship on Sunday are worshipping Satan and the beast. Your church says the keeping of Saturday Sabbath will be the final test to separate the true church from the false church. Your church also calls the Sabbath the Seal of God, when the New Testament is clear that the Holy Spirit is the seal of God.

Stan Ermshar


68. Colleen
February 7, 2006
2:52 AM

Passer-by, “Sabbath in Crisis”, now updated and reprinted as “Sabbath in Christ” by Dale Ratzlaff has been the most helpful book for me besides just plain Bible study.

Having been a Seventh-day Adventist, I had certain (mis)understandings of what Scripture said and meant, so I had to specifically study certain questions that the average Reformed believer probably wouldn’t have. Linda’s Adventist point of view reveals many of the unique Adventist explanations for keeping the seventh day.

Ratzlaff’s book is available online at www.LIfeAssuranceMinistries.org. It is a thorough study of the Old and the New Covenants.

The Bible itself is so clear about the New Covenant when one approaches it with prayer for God to reveal truth without our invisible blinders on.

Colleen


69. Ellen
February 7, 2006
7:26 AM

Ellen, Conversely, if I told you I was going to celebrate Christmas to Christmas would you think I was going to celebrate Christmas 365 days a year?

No. But that (again) you’re misquoting the verse. If you quote it the way the Bible says it, you would be saying:

I’m going to celebrate from Christmas to Christmas. If you used that very specific language, then I’d say yes, you’d be celebrating all year.

The ony day that John knew as the “Lords day” by the end of the first century when he wrote the book of Revelation is the Sabbath.

chapter and verse on that, please? I choose to believe that those who are inspired by God would have the language to say “Sabbath” if that is what they meant.

I asked you before, Linda, how do you keep the Sabbath? The Biblical way or man’s way?


70. Alan Finch
February 7, 2006
9:32 AM

Savon says

‘If one wants to keep the Sabbath I see no problem with it, just don’t judge others who are not convinced that they should keep it’

If the ten commandments is a summary of the moral law then our sabbath breaking along with our stealing is sin - Christ suffered for it, we should repent of it and seek for grace to keep it.

Given that in Genesis 1 & 2 God kept the Sabbath, and that we are then told man was created in God’s image, we ought to have been surprised if God had given only nine commandments at Sinai and not ten. The miraculous events surrounding the giving of the ten words, including the writing of them by the finger of God, marks them out from the rest of the Torah. Christ declares himself ‘Lord of the Sabbath’ (what a title if the Sabbath no longer exists!)

The issue should not be ‘if one wants to keep the Sabbath’ rather ‘how we keep the sabbath’. Here we should be cautious to judge others. As with the other commands there were specific Jewish aspects to them and we need to work through all the scriptures in context to determine what these were. The first step is to love God’s law (Psalm 119) - which includes the sabbath.


71. Jeremy
February 7, 2006
11:30 AM

Linda, I wouldn’t say I’m paranoid. I simply have been a part of Adventism and I know that that website is designed to get people into “The Truth” (SDA church, aka “The Only One True Remnant Church”). They also have a link to a website about the heretical SDA view of death (teaching that we cease to exist when we die—did Jesus cease to exist when He died?), a link to an SDA vegan health program, and they also link to the Amazing Facts ministry, which has as its sole purpose to “evangelize” people into SDAism and teach all of the SDA doctrines, etc. And they also sell SDA resources in their “store,” including a book by their false prophet, and material which teach their non-sense end-time events about the Mark of the Beast being worshipping God on Sunday and the Sabbath being the Seal of God (the Seal is the Holy Spirit—Eph 1, 4:30, etc.), there being a Universal Sunday Law and seventh-day Sabbath-keepers being sentenced to death by the Christians, etc.!!!

If the purpose was really to promote the Sabbath they would link to a resource listing many different Sabbath-keeping churches, not just SDA churches.

They also display an advertisment for an upcoming SDA “revival” meeting.


No, I am not paranoid at all. It is the same old demonic deception the cult was founded on hard at work still.

Jeremy


72. Savon
February 7, 2006
12:12 PM

Alan says,

Given that in Genesis 1 & 2 God kept the Sabbath:

Mark 2:27 - “The Sabbath was made for man”

We are then told man was created in God’s image and since God kept the Sabbath we should to:

Genesis 1:27,28 - God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them; God blessed them; AND GOD SAID TO THEM, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

The writing of them(the decalogue)by the finger of God, marks them out from the rest of the Torah.

Scripture reference???

Christ declares himself ‘Lord of the Sabbath’ (what a title if the Sabbath no longer exists!)

Context is King, Christ was not trying to disprove that the Sabbath existed at that time, rather He was establishing His Deity, He is not subject to the Sabbath, He is Lord OVER it, just as He is GREATER than the temple. The Sabbath law, as all the rest, were put into Christ’s hand, under His Lordship, to be altered, enforced, or dispensed with, as He saw fit. This is why He could heal or allow His disciples to pluck corn, take a walk on the Sabbath. All the things He did were prohibited.

The issue should not be ‘if one wants to keep the Sabbath’ rather ‘how we keep the sabbath’.

I agree 100%, so the question remains, who determines how the Sabbath is kept? God or man?


73. Alan Finch
February 7, 2006
4:12 PM

Savon
Couple of replies to your last post

God rested on the 7th day (Gen2.3), but by nature the moral law is for man’s benefit. There is no conflict between saying God kept it for our example and it is for our blessing.

God distinguishs the moral elements of the law given at sinai by writing them with his finger (Ex 31.18 and Deut 9.10). In addition he spoke the ten commands (Ex 20.1) whereas the rest of the torah was mediated through Moses.

You say that Christ is Lord of the sabbath and so has the right to dispense with it. True if it were not moral, but in addition he never did.

God determines how it is to be kept. The pattern is set in Gen 2.3.
Hope this is of use. God bless, Alan.


74. Colleen
February 7, 2006
4:21 PM

Colossians 2:16-17—the yearly, monthly, and weekly Sabbaths were shadows of the reality which is found in Christ.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because the Sabbath was a shadow of Him. If I’m stumbling through a desert and find myself in the shade of a tall building, I experience immediate relief from the killing heat. I can sit in that shade and experience rest and relief from the certain death I was facing.

Yet if I sit long enough, I realize I’m still too hot to be safe. Even thought the shadow is degrees cooler than the sun, I’m still dehydrating, and I still have no access to bread and water.

If I get up and enter that building in whose shade I’m sitting, however, I’ll find air conditioning, food, water, and a place to rest and recover from my death march across the desesrt.

The Sabbath was that kind of shadow of the perfect and complete rest we find in Jesus. Although we can leave the shadow and embrace Jesus, becoming one with Him and experiencing the water and bread of life, many of us have spent years trying to both be in Him and in the shadow.

We can’t do both. As long as we’re in the shadow, we’re trying to find that promised blessing without giving up everything—including the shadow—in favor of the Real Thing. When we’re in Christ and trusting Him completely to be all we need for moralilty and holiness and salvation, the shadow is obsolete.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because He Is the Sabbath Rest toward which the Sabbath pointed. Jesus embodies Sabbath rest.

When God finished creating the world and rested on the seventh day, that day had no evening and morning symbolizing a beginning and end as did the other days. His rest was without boundaries, and Adam and Eve were ushered into it through no effort of their own. When God finished creating, He might well have said, “It Is Finished.”

When Jesus died, He opened for us the possibility of being again in the unbroken rest of the finished work of God. “It Is Finished,” He said of His atoning sacrifice.

The Israelite’s Sabbath pointed back to God’s finished work and rest at the end of creation, and it pointed forward to Christ’s finished work and the restoration of our entering His rest as did Adam and Eve before they sinned.

No, the significance of Sabbath is not a day—a created thing. The reailty of Sabbath has always been God’s finished work—and in Jesus we can enter that rest of God.

Colleen


75. Grubb
February 7, 2006
5:06 PM

I’m 75 comments late to this discussion, have only read the first 20 or so, and don’t have the time to read the rest (no disrespect intended to #21-#75 :))

Yes, Col 2 and Rom 14 give us freedom from dogmatically adhering to the 4th commandment, but what does Eph 5:1 say? “Be imitators of God therefore,” and God himself set the example. He didn’t NEED to rest on the 7th day, He CHOSE to show us what was best.

I fully believe we’re free to enjoy the Sabbath and even work when needed, but if we truly want to imitate God, we should rest on the Sabbath. Meditate on God (or in our modern vernacular, think about God a lot) Take a nap:). John Ortberg wrote in “The Life You’ve Always Wanted” that his mentor told him “You must ruthlessly eliminate hurry from your life.” Resting on the Sabbath is an excellent place to start.


76. Milan Norgauer
February 7, 2006
6:41 PM

It strikes me that, as sincere and interesting as the comments have been, we lack a basic starting point as evangelicals in terms of understanding the law of God. This is where the historically Reformed insights are particularly helpful. I think that an appreciation of these insights, especially for those evangelicals who are not from Confessional churches, will help remove some of the confusion.

The Reformed tradition has emphasized that there are three uses of the law. First, there is the redemptive use: The law tells me I am a sinner and that I need a Savior. So, I flee to Christ for salvation. Second, it is a gude for Christian living. That is, now that I am in Christ, the law guides my grateful and joyful living in Christ. Third, the law is a help to civil society in general. That is, if all people (even unbelievers) lived according to God’s law, the world would generally be a better, more orderly and decent place (but no one would be saved by obeying the law).

Notice that, in none of these cases, is the law the basis by which we are saved (unless you consider Christ’s perfect obedience to the law as qualifying him to be our Savior). The law leads us to Christ, guides our living, and helps to order society. So, the 4th commandment leads me to Christ (because I do not rest in God and worship him as I should), it guides my Christian living (it helps me to order my week and my work and my worship and devotion), and it would benefit all people to consider God’s sovereign right to order our lives and our time that we might rest in him and worship him alone.

One of the comments made most often here is that the New Testament (particularly the Sermon on the Mount) intensifies the Old Testament moral requirements, and that is right. In fact, we can say that Christ broadens, deepens, and positivizes (gives the positive side of the negative command) the Ten Commandments. So, as the Heidelberg Catechism and the Westminster Catechisms teach us: Thou shalt not murder actually means not only that we refrain from murdering people, but that we devote all of our power and energy to the well-being of other people. We do not injure them with our hands or our words. We protect them and their property. In short, we love them. Not stealing means that we work with our hands until we have enough to share with those in need (Eph. 4:28). Not committing adultery means that I love my wive as Christ loved the church and that I am satisfied with my wife and don’t lust after another woman. These are not new commands; this is what the commandment MEANS.

But, even though the commands have been intensified, we don’t disregard nor do we negate the ORIGINAL command. I can’t say, well: I didn’t lust after her, but I slept with her, so I kept the NT law, but not the OT law. I obeyed in the heart (NT) because the OT law doesn’t apply anymore. That would be absurd. The commandment is named in the OT, stated negatively (in most cases) and then elaborated upon and intensified throughout the rest of the Bible (not just the NT, by the way, but the OT does this as well).

So, coming to the Sabbath. There is the original command, and then the rest of the Bible. The original command requires 1 day in seven rest and 1 day in seven worship and devotion. We know this because Israel was to observe the Sabbath so that they would KNOW that it is the Lord that makes them holy-Exodus 31:13. That is, it is the Lord that makes us holy, not obedience to the law. In their rest, they were to recognize this and trust in the Lord. So, Sabbath observance has an intensely spiritual significance, that is largely missed. I rest from my (physical) work, so that I will know not to trust in my own (spiritual) work, but rather in the work of Christ. Yes, Christ IS our Sabbath rest, but that does not entail my giving up the sign. Christ has shed his blood and poured out his spirit, yet we still observe the signs in Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

And so, because the original command requires one day in seven observance (now the Lord’s Day, after the apostolic pattern and the Resurrection of Christ), then that is where we START. We don’t throw it out (like adultery and stealing) and say, in effect, “All of life is worship, 24-7.” It’s true that all of life is to be a sacrifice of our whole selves, and an act of worship (Romans 12:1-2), but that is broadening of the command. We don’t throw out the original commandment, just because it has been broadened. Or else we would throw out the prohibitions against stealing and adultery and murder, as long as our “hearts were right.” Impossible.

I realize that I have not addressed those NT passages which are said to call Sabbath observance into question. Those passages need to be dealt with. My hope has been to clear up the misunderstanding regarding the nature of the law, and the way in which it moves from OT to NT, and from the original commandment to the general broadening throughout the Bible.

A final thought: to charge those who observe the Christian Sabbath with legalism is odd indeed. We do not believe we are saved by it, but by Christ alone. We do not believe it makes us more spiritual than others, but that is a gracious gift from God to us to be enjoyed. Certainly we are not legalists to forbid stealing or adultery. How then can we be legalists to spend an entire day in devotion to Christ, and encourage all Christians to do the same?


77. Savon
February 7, 2006
7:52 PM

Colleen you are spot on. Christ in all of Scripture. Everything points to Christ. It’s all about Christ. We should be afriad to take our eyes off of Christ, because when we take our eyes off of Christ, we will look to anything to try and please God. God is pleased ONLY by what Christ has done. God requires absolute perfection to His commands, thus good intentions, desires, efforts to keep His commands doesn’t meet up. If anyone fails to keep just one, they have failed to keep them all.

This is why CHRIST has come, all down through the O.T. and fully obeyed all the commands of the Father and satisfied His righteous wrath towards those of us who has not and does not perfectly and continually keep His commands.

This is why we must continually look to Christ just as in the O.T. the type and shadows pointed forward to Christ, thus we look back to the Cross to Christ.

Whenever we move away from the Cross we will always, always, always look to way’s that we can please God, whether it be through Sabbath keeping or any other good work that we claim to be doing other than trusting in Christ.

Nothing pleases the Father more than belief in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ, His Son.

This is why Paul said to the Corinthians, when I was among you I purposed to know nothing except Christ and Him Crucified for sinners. It’s all about Christ.

The two signs of the Old Covenant were circumcision and Sabbath. The two New Covenant signs are baptism and Lord’s Supper. Jesus is at the Center!

If you’re looking to the Law for any other reason than to see God’s requirements of you, thus leading you to repentance and running to Christ, you have missed the purpose of the Law. God’s demands are absolute perfection. Anything less deserves temporal and eternal punishment.


Lastly, if I may, in all humility, point out that the hermenuetic(biblical interpretation) being used in some of the post is bad, therefore, may I make a recommendation: Never read a Bible verse again!!

The key to the meaning of any verse comes from the paragraph, not just from the individual words or sentence. The numbers in front of the sentences give the illusion that the verse(s) stand alone in their meaning. They were not in the originals. Numbers were added hundreds of years later. Chapter and verse breaks sometimes pop up in unfortunate places, separating relevant material that should be grouped together.

Begin with the broad context of the book. What type of literature is it history, poetry, symbolic, etc.? What is the passage about in general? What idea is being developed? Try to identify major units of thought.

The reason this is so important is because words have different meanings in different contexts. When one consider’s a verse in isolation, one meaning may occur. But how will one know it’s the right one? Dictionaries only complicate the issue, giving more choices, not fewer, therefore, any help must come from somewhere else close by: the surrounding paragraph.


78. Jeremy
February 7, 2006
7:57 PM

Grubb,

If we are to imitate God’s example from Genesis physically, then we could NEVER work. God did not “keep the Sabbath.” According to Strong’s concordance, the word Sabbath means an “intermission.” The Hebrew word for “rest” used in Gen. 2 means to “cease.” It says that He ceased creating the world on the seventh day. So, did God start creating again on the first day of week 2? No—He had ceased creating. It was an eternal rest. It was not 6 days working, 1 day of rest, and then 6 days of working again! It was a completed work—and He ceased working. Adam and Eve were able to enter into God’s rest and enjoy it also. Not just once a week, but perpetually, continually—until the Fall. Then the Curse introduced work and the Rest was broken for mankind. But in Ex. 16 God gave Israel a rest day every seventh day of the week, as a reminder of the rest that was lost in Eden and as a shadow of Jesus who would restore God’s Rest to us by His redemption of us and letting us find rest in Him. Now that the Substance of the shadow as come (Col 2), the Sabbath that remains for the people of God is TODAY and every day in Jesus (Heb 4).

Passer-by and others,

In addition to the book “Sabbath in Christ” by Dale Ratzlaff, I recommend the following resources:

http://www.ariel.org/mshabbat.html (This is very good, including for the Creation question)

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/audio.cfm

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/law-study.cfm

http://web.archive.org/web/20041021012419/http://www.ariel.org/ff00006c.html (“The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ”)

Jeremy


79. Colleen
February 7, 2006
8:46 PM

Milan, I understand your point of view. I worship with many Christ-followers who see the law as you described it: as a guide to moral living.

I do not contend that Christians will not live according to the principles in the Decalogue. Of course they will!

My concern is that saying the Law given at Sinai is part of the New Testament rule of faith and practice necessarily means that we miss the most powerful of all the shadows: the real essence of the Sabbath.

Hebrews, Galatians, Romans—they all explain how the law has been superceded in every way by Christ. We can let go of the Decalogue without fear because when we are born of the Spirit, we will live by the Law of God—because He Is LIving In Us.

I was struck by your term, “the Christian Sabbath”. That phrase has no Biblical precedent. There is clearly an Israelite Sabbath, but nowhere does the NT teach Sabbath-keeping to the new Christian churches. Acts 15, in fact, explains that the church in Jerusalem, in partnership with the Holy Spirit, saw fit to give the Gentiles only four rules for living (beyond accepting Jesus, of course). Those four were eat no blood, eat no strangled animals, eat no meat offered to idols (although Paul in 1 Cor says the idols mean nothing to him, and he could eat that “consecrated” meat without sin), and no sexual immorality.

This conversation was in the context of whether or not to require circumcision—the ritual that would then require that they keep the whole law. The decision was that no Jewish laws would be required of the Gentiles.

Nowhere is there any command or explanation for sacred days or “days off” or worship days. While there are exhortations to meet together, those exhortations do not remotely suggest which day those meetings would happen on. Tradition tells us many early believers met together on Sunday in honor of the resurrection. Others (especially those of Jewish extraction) continued to meet on Saturday. It was optional and discretionary.

To use the law as a guide for Christian living, however, is to impose onto Christians something that no apostle and not even Jesus ever taught as part of living in the New covenantÆSabbath-keeping.

Hebrews, again, is meticulously clear that everything—even the seventh-day Sabbath—was fulfilled in Christ and transformed into continuous rest in Him.

If, however, we are going to use the Law as a guide to Christian living, then we must keep the seventh day. That requirement was profoundly important. No substitute would do. There was NO command or apostolic teaching to change the day of worship.

In the absence of a change, we have to understand that the Jewish Sabbath never became the “Christian Sabbath”. Now we have Jesus Himself.

Days are optional—days are created things. Jesus, however, and our command to live by the Spirit are not optional.

Colleen


80. Ellen
February 7, 2006
9:02 PM

Question:

Since many of the early Christians were slaves, how could a “Christian Sabbath” be taught, much less enforced? The slaves would not have been able to take a specified “day off”.

For the apostles to teach a “Christian Sabbath” on one hand, and for Paul to teach that a slave should do all things as unto the Lord and not to seek to be free - it would seem that he would have had to give some explanation for how these two contradictory teachings could mesh.


81. Stan
February 7, 2006
10:50 PM

For other great references on New Covenant theology, I would recommend the following;

For a clear concise definition of New Covenant theology ,
http://www.ptitx.org/News/whatis-NTC.htm

For a more in depth presentation of New Covenant theology, John Reisinger is really the pioneer,
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index047.htm

Stan Ermshar


82. Grant
February 8, 2006
5:14 AM

Thank You Tim Challies, you have raised some very good points here on a obviously sensitive topic.

I am unsure why so many are so hot to trot to do away with the 10 commandments, and in particular the seventh day as Sabbath.

It will do little good to argue with Stan, Jeremy or Colleen or whomever. They have clearly drawn their line in the sand. Jeremy, I am a SDA and I love you brother, I pray you get over your anger. “Red and Yellow, Black and White, all are precious in His sight”

I love the Sabbath. I look forward to it each week. I enjoy meeting with my Maker each week, spending time with friends, getting pumped with a great spiritual message, spending time with my family, having a snooze from time to time, putting business to rest for 24 hours, listening to some of my favorite Christian music, playing my horn, not worrying about getting the bathroom painted or the garage cleaned, what a treat.

I don’t know what I would do without this day.

I am not comfortable basing my theology on things that weren’t specifically said or weren’t specifically mentioned in the Old or New Testament. That is like trying to outsmart God. “This wasn’t said, so God must have meant this, or He couldn’t have meant this”, etc.

Genesis 2:2-3 says that when God finished creating the world He rested on the Seventh Day, He blessed this day and he hallowed it (made it holy). He makes this pretty clear.

Where does it say that God tranfers His blessing to another day? Where does it say God hallowed Sunday, or Friday, or any other day? If it is so clear here, why would He leave it so nebulous later on?

God created man in His image. As the Master Designer God knew (and knows) what was/is best for mankind. Enoch walked and talked with God. Did Enoch observe his Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday? The Bible doesn’t say specifically, so do we assume Sunday because it doesn’t say? I tend to think it was important to God and He and Enoch had some awesome Sabbath walks. Can you imagine going for a hike with God and talking about life? Getting some advice on dealing with the teens, or Mrs. Enoch? Whoa! God must have really loved Enoch, just like He really loves every person since Adam and Eve.

At Mt. Sinai God reminds His “Chosen People” to “remember” the Sabbath in the Decalogue. They had just come out of a heathen, idolatrous nation after 2-300 years where there were human sacrifices and all kinds of sexual imorality and on and on. God knew (and knows) what was best for his “chosen people” , His created beings. They needed reminding of the laws of life that had been a big part of their life before Jacob and the boys moved to Egypt.

Jesus died on Friday, He rested in the tomb on Saturday and he was raised on Sunday.

Perhaps somewhere around here in the Gospels, God should have said, or inspired His writers to say (just to keep things clear), “and God, the creator of the world saw that His Holy day of rest was askew, and needed to be changed, therefore He rested again, on Sunday, the , with the sun god RA, and He blessed it and hallowed it”. OR some variation thereof.

This could go on so I will wrap up.

When the pharisees were trying to trap Jesus and they asked Him what was the greatest law, why didn’t Jesus just tell them then and there that He had done away with the law and not to sweat it any longer?

Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today and forever. God must be the same too.

If Jesus says, if you love Me keep my commandments.
I want to keep them because I love Jesus.

If God has blessed Saturday as Sabbath, I want that Sabbath blessing, and I will endeavor to honor Him by making it special.

1John 5:3 says “This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome.

My Sabbath is not burdensome, I love it.

I don’t really care if former SDA Apologist Robert Brimsmead scoffs at me or my beliefs (thanks for that nugget Stan - I am sure Bob must have been a great guy and God loved him too).

I answer to my creator God, and it is He who blots out my sins and He who loves me and He who saves me and I don’t need an apologist for that.


83. Garrett
February 8, 2006
8:48 AM

This message is for Colleen, who has posted several times in this discussion…

I just wanted to express my appreciation for all that you have said here. It has been a real blessing, and very encouraging. I was curious, do you have your own blog that I could check out?

Thanks in advance.

gh


84. Alando
February 8, 2006
10:04 AM

The father of Reformed Theology- John Calvin’s view on the Sabbath commandment.

There were three reasons for giving this commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him.
Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason.

As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned.
Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares elsewhere its truth when in the letter to the Romans, ch. 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians.

The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating
superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church.

As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for admin-istering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin’s own 1537 digest of the Institutes, sec. 8, “The Law of the Lord”].

The leader who sparked the Protestant Reformational Theology - Martin Luther’s view on the Sabbath command.

The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath]. Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.

This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.

But to grasp a Christian meaning for the simple as to what God requires in this commandment, note that we keep holy days not for the sake of intelligent and learned Christians (for they have no need of it [holy days]), but first of all for bodily causes and necessities, which nature teaches and requires; for the common people, man-servants and maid-servants, who have been attending to their work and trade the whole week, that for a day they may retire in order to rest and be refreshed.

Secondly, and most especially, that on such day of rest (since we can get no other opportunity) freedom and time be taken to attend divine service, so that we come together to hear and treat of God’s Word, and then to praise God, to sing and pray.

However, this, I say, is not so restricted to any time, as with the Jews, that it must be just on this or that day; for in itself no one day is better than another; but this should indeed be done daily; however, since the masses cannot give such attendance, there must be at least one day in the week set apart. But since from of old Sunday [the Lord’s Day] has been appointed for this purpose, we also should continue the same, in order that everything be done in harmonious order, and no one create disorder by unnecessary innovation.


85. Brian...formerly voiceofthesheep
February 8, 2006
10:12 AM

Has anyone ever thought about the fact that God did NOT stop working on the seventh day? Yes, He DID rest from His work of creating…but He did NOT stop working. Check out what Jesus says:

“The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

But He answered them, “MY FATHER IS WORKING UNTIL NOW, AND I MYSELF AM WORKING.” For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” - John 5:15-18

Just thought that was interesting.

Also, those of you who hold that the Sabbath (Saturday or Sunday, depending on your view) is still to be observed literally as in the OT…what gives you the liberty to pick and choose which of the OT laws you will still observe and which ones you will not?

Do you still observe the passover as commanded by God?
“And you shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children FOREVER.” - Ex. 12:24

Do you still circumcise as commanded by God?
“thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an EVERLASTING COVENANT.” - Ex. 17:13

I still haven’t read much here on Romans 14 where Paul appears to address this topic right on point.

Just as the temple is fulfilled in Christ…so also is the Sabbath fulfilled in Christ.


86. Rick
February 8, 2006
10:24 AM

Interesting discussion.

“Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man”


87. Andrew
February 8, 2006
1:17 PM

My apologies, I don’t have the time to read all the discussions that have taken place to this point, I read until about comment 50, then ran out of time ;-).

Comment 49 argued strangely that Christians aren’t even obligated to come together and worship on the Lord’s Day.

I have not seen Hebrews 10:25 referred to, especially in light of its context of Christian worship in light of Christ’s perfect sacrifice for sin in fulfillment of the shadowy Mosaic law. Corporate worship on the Lord’s Day is not optional for the confessing believer.

Whether or not you refer to Sunday as the Christian Sabbath, believers are still to come together to partake of the means of grace.

Those in the Reformed tradition who refer to Sunday as the “Christian Sabbath” are not saying that we go back to the Mosaic administration of it. Rather that it IS fulfilled in Christ as is the whole law, then we receive it as a guide for thankful living (otherwise known as the third use of the law).

The Westminster Confession of Faith does a good Job dealing with the worship, and the topic of the Sabbath, and the fulfillment that has occured in Christ. Chapter 21 sections 7-8 in particular deal with this topic:

7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.

8. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.

To view their reasoning from Scripture, reference the document with the Scriptural proofs footnoted: http://opc.org/documents/CFLayout.pdf

Legalism has no place in Christianity, but neither does antinomianism. Both extremes err.


88. Jeremy
February 8, 2006
1:32 PM

Grant, thanks for your concern, but I don’t have bitterness and am thankful for the wonderful blessings of God in my life, especially the blessing of knowing that I am saved forever and have eternal life, because of Jesus’ righteousness and His death and resurrection, and His sovereign regeneration of my spirit by the Holy Spirit. The anger I that DO have I pray I never get over, for it is a righteous anger against the demonic deception that has been perpetrated in SDAism since the cult was founded.

When it says in Gen 2 that God hallowed the seventh day, it is talking about how God set that day apart for Israel in Exodus 16. This is called an anachronism, meaning that Moses is writing about an event which happened later, after the current story. Moses wrote this way on many occasions. A good example is the following:

“As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the Testimony, to be kept.” (Ex. 16:34 NASB.)

The Testimony (stone tablets) had not been given yet in Ex. 16—so this is describing an event which happened at a later time. The same is true with Gen. 2 and God sanctifying the Sabbath. This is made clear by the rest of Scripture which tells us when God gave the Sabbath to people, and even Gen 2. itself makes it sound like God sanctified the day sometime after the first seventh day, *because* He ceased creating on that day. So let’s look at what the rest of the Bible says about…

WHEN did God give the Sabbath to people? And to WHOM did He give it?

“Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,
23then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”
24So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26”Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”
27It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
29”See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
30So the people rested on the seventh day.” (Ex. 16:22-30 NASB.)

This is after Israel crossed the Red Sea and came into the wilderness, and God says that He had just “given” them the Sabbath day. And it was for Israel only.

“You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.” (Deut. 5:15 NASB)

God commanded the Sabbath day as a remembrance that they had been delivered from Egypt—again, this was after the exodus and it was only for Israel.

“You divided the sea before them,
So they passed through the midst of the sea on dry ground; […]
So You made known to them Your holy sabbath,
And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law,
Through Your servant Moses.” (Neh. 9:11a, 14 NASB.)

Once again we see that God made known the Sabbath after the crossing of the Red Sea into the wilderness, and that it was for Israel.

“So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11”I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12”Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.” (Ezekiel 20:10-12 NASB.)

Once again, God says He gave them the Sabbath after they came into the wilderness. And it was for Israel only—a sign between God and Israel, so that Israel would know that God sanctifies them (“sets them apart” from the Gentiles.)

“The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
13”But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
14’Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
15’For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
16’So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’
17”It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.” (Ex. 31:12-17 NASB.)

Notice that it makes it so clear that the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel. That means that Gentiles were not allowed to keep it or else it could not have been a special sign between God and Israel to set apart Israel from the Gentiles! In fact, some Rabbis taught that Gentiles who kept the Sabbath (without becoming circumcised and becoming Jews first), should be stoned to death.

Notice also that the Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel. A covenant which the NT tells us is obsolete and has disappeared (Heb 8). Why should I proclaim to people that I am a Jew and that I am keeping a covenant which is no longer in existence, by keeping its sign??

Regarding the statements in the NT about the “commandments”—the Jews never would have understood “the commandments” to refer to the 10 Cs. The Jews have always referred to “the mitsvah” (“the commandments”) to mean ALL 613 commands in the Mosaic Law. In fact, the Bible never used the phrase “the Ten Commandments”—that is a mistranslation. The Hebrew word translated commandments, dabar, simply means “words.” It does not at all mean “commandments.” So it says the Ten Words. In fact, the Bible never refers to the Ten Words as “the commandments.” No Jew would have understood Jesus to mean the Ten Words, when He said to keep His commandments (Greek, entole). He meant HIS teachings and commands. 1 John 3:22-23 defines what “the commandments” are:

“and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.”

Jeremy


89. Robin Rhea
February 8, 2006
2:02 PM

This might be an overly simply question that all of you who have done much more study will laugh and mock at, but I am ignorant in many ways on this subject so please forgive me. But it seems to me that what is being said here are a few things.

1. The sabbath, or Sunday, is no longer to be kept as a sabbath as in the old testament.

2. We are called to still observe this day as a time of meeting together and not foresaking the assembly.

3. Christians are within their liberty to treat it as any other day.

So my questions is this, if Sunday (or whatever you prefer to call the former sababth) is no longer to be set apart in a special way, then how can you guard the assembling of the saints. If I choose to work on Sunday and therefore miss church, to what would you appeal to in order to censure me for missing the assembly? I could easily respond that you should have the assembly on a Tuesday or Wednesday, or if the assmebly for some reason had to be on a Sunday, I could state that it should just be at 10pm or 5pm, and if Sunday is not a special day made holy to the Lord, what would be the response?

Again, I plead ignorance if this has been addressed already, I am just confused by the practical implications for Christian living.

Lastly, if the entire decalogue and all the “rules” of the old testament are no longer valid, then what about issues not addressed directly in the new testament such as incest abd beastiality, I know someone will inevitably bring up the porneia argument, but you would have to work pretty hard to prove that all of the moral prohibitons covered under the old testament can be explained by the comparatively limited exhortations contained in the new testament. If they cannot be proven by new testament terminology then under what authority can believers that abandon the “law” be required to abstain from such practices?

Great topic, I read about 1/3 of the responses and have been impressed by the civil tones sometimes lacking in theological blogging, I would really appreciate any response.

Robin Rhea


90. Ellen
February 8, 2006
2:28 PM

Comment 49 argued strangely that Christians aren’t even obligated to come together and worship on the Lord’s Day.

Not so strangely. If we choose to meet on Saturday, what is in the New Testement “law” to force us to esteem one day over another?

the New Covenenant says not to forsake the gathering together - it does not say what do we must meet.


91. Garrett
February 8, 2006
3:29 PM

Robin,

Regarding bestiality and incest: were these practices wrong BEFORE the law of Moses was given? If so, how do you know?

I think answering this will go a long way in answering your question.

gh


92. Garrett
February 8, 2006
3:36 PM

Also to Robin,

I found this article that may prove helpful:

http://soundofgrace.com/jgr/index033.htm

He does discuss the porneia argument, but perhaps in a different way than the way it is typically used (as referenced in your above post).

Hope this is useful.

gh


93. Stan
February 8, 2006
5:56 PM

Garrett,
I do appreciate your civil spirit in this discussion, even if you belong to my former church. Thanks for bringing up that reference from John Reisinger’s website soundofgrace.com By the way, he has some wonderful material on the decalogue and New Covenant theology. Here is a classic article specifically on the believer’s Sabbath at
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index076.htm
and then I just posted his definition of New Covenant theology also there http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index047.htm

I hope you have either read these articles while you were over there on that web site, because Reisinger is coming at this issue with no former SDA axe to grind. He is also great on Reformed theology. So for all of my Reformed brethren who want to review this topic further, I promise you will find it interesting.

Stan


94. Jeremy
February 8, 2006
9:08 PM

The absolute fact is that the Bible does not say which day or days we must meet together—it simply says to gather together.

Say somene only goes to church once a week, on Sunday morning. If someone else goes to church on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, aren’t they obeying Heb 10 more than the first person is?

Most large churches have services of some kind every day of the week. And other churches have services on Saturday evening, Sunday, mid-week, etc. Most churches have at least a mid-week service in addition to Sunday services.

But if the only time you could assemble with other believers at a church in your area was on a Sunday—then yes you would be wrong to not attend Sunday service.

But it has nothing to do with the DAY.

It’s all about Jesus and growing in grace.

Jeremy


95. Doug
February 8, 2006
9:21 PM

I love the Sabbath! I keep it each week and it has proven to be a wonderful time of spiritual focus! And just so I can add my two cents, I do believe God intends us to keep in on Saturday. I know many of you disagree, but Biblically that’s very clear to me. (I don’t think the arguments I have heard to the contrary are very strong.)

Regardless, the Sabbath is great!

Doug


96. Colleen
February 8, 2006
11:53 PM

Doug, I agree that the Sabbath is wonderful for you. I LOVED the Sabbath as an Adventist. The Sabbath, though, was never as intimate and personal as the presence of Jesus that I have experienced since I decided to risk giving up everything and entrusting myself entirely to Jesus. I had no idea how much my holding onto the shadow kept me from living in the reality of Him.

Andrew, seeing the 10 Commandments as being obsolete now that Christ has come does not equal antinomianism. I am not looking for permission to sin. Besides, the Mosaic law doesn’t begin to cover the sins to which we are drawn as fallen humans.

Ephesians 4-5 (as only one example) is clear that all immorality, impurity, greed, obscenity, foolish talk, coarse joking, lying, stealing indulged anger, bitterness, rage, brawling, slander, malice, foolishness, drunkenness, debauchery, etc. are completely unacceptable in the life of a Christ-follower. And just in case this list isn’t comprehensive enough, 5:8-13 gives general guidlines: we WERE darkness, but now we’re children of light. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but expose them.

If the numerous and repetitive lists in the New Testament of unacceptable behavior don’t seem to be enough to guide moral behavior, perhaps Romans 2:12-15 sheds light. In this passage Paul shows that the Gentiles, who traditionally did not have the law and therefore did not possess any special revelation from God as did Israel, still sometimes by nature did the things required by the law.

“They are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, sinced they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.”

This “law-keeping” by the pre-cross Gentiles who had no special revelation was possible because God’s eternal morality was imprinted on their consciences. Those who lived by this conviction were not among those described in Romans 1 who suppressed the truth of God with their own wickedness.

If pagan Gentiles with no knowledge of God and no special revelation available to them were able to live morally by the moral requirements of the law being written on their consciences (an act of God to be sure!), then why would regenerate, born-of-the-Spirit Christ-followers who have the special revelation of Scripture and of Jesus Himself need the Decalogue in order to know how to live? We now have much more than mere conscience; we have God Himself living in us! He does not need the Decalogue in order to instruct us!

Garrett, I do not have a blog, but I do post on the forum at www.FormerAdventist.com. Check it out!

Colleen


97. Jeremy
February 9, 2006
12:49 AM

Just to add to what Colleen said about people having consciences and knowing morality. I doubt their consciences told them to keep 1 day out of every 7 holy! It is not an issue of morality that is part of people’s consciences—it was a ceremonial law. Check out the following web page explaining this fact: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer’s%20Corner/sabbath_moral_or_ceremonial_law.htm

Jeremy


98. Stan
February 9, 2006
2:01 AM

I would like to second Colleen’s comments. I will try to link the website that many of us discuss the great issues of the New Covenant, and the real significance of the Sabbath, fulfilled in Christ.

http://www.formeradventist.com

For those of you who want to discuss the Sabbath and the New Covenant and discover why Adventism is not just another Christian religion, then you are invited to join our discussion.

Stan


99. Garrett
February 9, 2006
9:05 AM

Stan,

I think you may have me mixed up with someone else, unless the “Stan” from comment 93 is different from the “Stan” from comment 98! Whatever the case, I’ve found your comments (whoever you are) to be very helpful as well.

gh


100. Andrew
February 9, 2006
11:59 AM

Jeremy and Ellen,

Changing worship services from the Lord’s Day to “whenever” is a very recent phenomenon that has to do more with catering to what people desire, than seeking to follow Scripture in when and how we worship.

The attributes of the church are characterized well in the apostles creed “one,” “holy,” “catholic,” “apostolic.”

It is the designation “apostolic” that I’d like to address. What does it mean for a church to be an “apostolic church?” It is a church founded on the Gospel witness given by the Spirit through the apostles. The early church didn’t look all that different than the synagogue. It was ruled by “presbuteroi” as was the synagogue, it contained teaching from God’s Word, a form of government that had the right of appeal, etc. However there was one difference, following Christ’s resurrection they met on the *first* day of the week, instead of the last. This is the testimony of Scripture, and the consistent practice of the church for the last 2,000 years until very recently. The exception being the SDA’s whose ultimate problem is one of authority and the belief in binding extrabiblical revelation. This problem in itself can lead to any number of problems, for instance the Branch Davidians, a schism from the SDA’s…..

The entire Christian life is to be worship, living to honor and glorify God in everything. However, Christ’s church gathers on the Lord’s Day as a corporate body to worship together. Any other midweek service is an additional opportunity for worship and fellowship, but ought never to subvert worship on the Lord’s Day with the saints.


101. Jeremy
February 9, 2006
9:16 PM

Andrew,

Acts chapter 2 says that the early church was meeting daily.

You wrote:
“Any other midweek service is an additional opportunity for worship and fellowship, but ought never to subvert worship on the Lord’s Day with the saints.”

Where does it say that in Scripture? Romans 14 says that it is perfectly acceptable to not regard one day above another.

Jeremy


102. Andrew
February 10, 2006
12:13 AM

Greetings Jeremy,

Please read Romans 14 again. This time look at the basic context that surrounds verse 5. Paul is not speaking about corporate worship, rather about feasts and festivals. Paul is addressing the problems that resulted from the Gentile inclusion especially with regards to the Jewish dietary customs regarding what is clean and unclean.

Peace,
Andrew


103. Jeremy
February 10, 2006
12:23 PM

Andrew,

I still ask, in response to this quote of yours…

“Any other midweek service is an additional opportunity for worship and fellowship, but ought never to subvert worship on the Lord’s Day with the saints.”

Where does it say that in Scripture?

Jeremy


104. PuritanD
February 10, 2006
12:35 PM

Greetings,

This has been an interesting discussion. Boy does it take time to read all these comments.

There are many in this post who have argued that there is no instruction nor elaboration of the 4th commandment in the NT and therefore it is to be done away with. This seems to be more an argument from silence.

When Jesus did teach on the decalogue as someone else pointed out, He corrected his listeners understanding of each, by expanding it to include more than just the physical actions. Did He not do this as well with the Sabbath? He continuously corrected the abuses and misunderstandings regarding the Sabbath. Of course, one could pose the question, “Why did He not just come out and say it is no longer needed instead of correcting and elaborating on the proper understanding of what the Sabbath is suppose to be?”

Is it not possible that a reason why the NT might be more silent on this subject is that their listeners may in fact understand the idea of Sabbath, hence the reverse argument from silence (i.e. no need for correction or admonishment). In other words, Jesus nor the apostles ever denounced the practice of the Sabbath, should then the command still be intact as the others?

I saw many instantces of some stating that the Sabbath is a ceremonial command and not a moral. Yet, the reason for the Sabbath is based on Genesis 2:2 according to Exodus 20:11. I believe it was Brian that asked why if someone observes the Sabbath that they do not observe the passover? It lies in the fact that the Sabbath day is based on the activity of God during creation, not of the exodus from Egypt.

Others pointed out that the “evening and morning” expression is not listed and therefore does not mention God stopping. This does seem to be a fairly weak argument.

1) It is the only day that is marked prior to God’s activity for that day, therefore no need for such demarcation. In fact, the term “seventh day” apprears three times in this passage which seems to signify importance, none of the other days are repeated as such.

2)It could have easily been said, “God rested, it was evening and morning the seventh day.” The writer did not do this to emphasis the importance of what did transpired on that day. God blessed it. Hmmm, isn’t intersting that of all the days of creation, only the seventh day was blessed by God. God did bless Adam and Eve, but not the day they were created. Why did He bless this day if it was nothin’ special?

3)The use of day here is the same as in Exodus in understanding a 24 hr. period of time. So just because the writer does not go to the eighth day which would be weird, does not mean that there was not a physical end to that day of rest.

One person if memory serves correctly stated that work came after the Fall. This is a false premise since God did have Adam name all the animals and put him in the garden to keep it and cultivate it which seems to imply work (Gen 2:15).

My 2 cents worth.

Respectfully,
PuritanD


105. Ellen
February 10, 2006
3:33 PM

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


106. chad
February 10, 2006
5:58 PM

Not to act as some sort of referee, but after 106 posts on this topic, I think it has been rode into the ground. There comes a point in which this type of venue no longer serves the truth. Perhaps it would be best to link to articles, etc. as a sort of resource list. I appreciate those who have done so already.

Whatever else we can say about this issue, we can certainly say that it is not as simple as some would like to make it. Christians struggle on both sides of this issue. Still, we should attempt to arrive at truth.

Most people I have come across, who are not simply “antinomian” and who stand against a regulatory Sabbath command in the New Covenant have read and interacted thoroughly with the Sabbatarian position.

There are also many Sabbatarian’s who have thoughtfully considered the claims of those who believe Christ to be the fulfillment and end of the regualatory Sabbath command. My experience has been that most Sabbatarians have not truly and honestly considered the arguments of the ‘fulfillment’ group.

This is in no way meant as a put down to my Sabbatarian brothers. It is meant as an encouragement to independantly consider the claims of those who believe Christ to be the great and glorious rest of which the Sabbath was a foreshadowing.


107. Jeremy
February 10, 2006
8:49 PM

PuritanD,

You say that perhaps the NT believers understood the Sabbath and therefore they didn’t need to discuss it. How could a Gentile believer possibly automatically understand that he was supposed to keep the Sabbath day holy, rest, and do no work? The Gentiles were definitely not used to keeping the Sabbath. You would certainly expect more instruction on that than on telling people not to murder, etc.

But the fact is that the NT is not silent on the Sabbath. In Gal. 4:10-11, Paul does talk to the Gentiles about keeping days, months, seasons and years according to the Law, and he is angry that they are doing it! He does denounce it. Now, the years corresponds to years like the Jubilee, etc.; seasons is the seasonal feasts, months is the new moon, and days is the weekly Sabbath—there is no other option left!

Similarly, in Col 2. he writes that no one should judge you about feast days (yearly festivals/sabbaths), new moons (monthly), and Sabbaths (weeky)—because these were all simply shadows pointing forward to Christ, who is the Substance.

Also, in Heb. 4, the writer addresses the question of the Sabbath and he says that the day is now TODAY that we enter into God’s Rest, and that the Sabbath which remains for the people of God is not the keeping of 1 day out of 7, but is resting TODAY and every day in Christ’s finished work of salvation for us.

There is one other reason why it cannot be called an argument from silence. That is because the NT tells us that the Old Covenant is obsolete and that we are under a New Covenant. Well, a covenant only includes that which it specifically states, and not things from a previous covenant which it does not state.

Also, the Sabbath is based on the Exodus—see Deut. 5.

God’s rest was not a Sabbath—He simply ceased creating the world. That’s all it says He “rested” from (John 5, Jesus says that God has always been working and not keeping Sabbath). So if He was “resting” from the work of Creation—did He start creating again the next week? NO! It was not a 1 day rest—it was an eternal rest. He CEASED creating on the 7th day. And He did not start again on Sunday or Monday or any other day.

Jeremy


108. Tim
February 10, 2006
11:33 PM

I thought I might ask a few questions in regards to this lively discussion:

Someone said, “Christ Himself said that all Ten could be summed up in two commandments: 1) love God (1-4), and 2) love your neighbor (5-6).” Then they proceeded to say that the law is not needed because now we see the law of love. I might remind you that when the law was given it was based on love. Remember, Deuteronomy 6? You are to LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. It seems sort of amorphic to me to just say love God and love your neighbor if those things cannot be defined. However, I think Christ did define them. Was He bringing a different law in Matthew 5-7 or was He simply bringing people back to the original intent? Point is: Can we define love for God? Can we define love for our neighbor? Of course. The Spirit of God enables the children of God to obey God. If men were called to repent, what were they called to repent of? Sin. How do men know what sin is? Paul said that he would not have known sin, except by the law. Therefore, if someone is called to repentance and that repentance is from sin and towards God, how is it verified?

Also, Paul closes Romans 3 after speaking about the fact that all are sinners and condemned by the Law, he asks, “Do we then make void the law through faith? CERTAINLY NOT! On the Contrary, we esteem the Law.”

Someone also said that Jesus “worked” on the Sabbath. I know MacArthur says that Jesus “broke” the Sabbath. However, I would simply point out the difference in His work. His work was not for sustenance. His work was not for His own personal gain. Here is the big difference I see with the position Dr. MacArthur holds and that of Dr. Chantry. I have never heard one good thing concerning the command regarding the Sabbath from Dr. MacArthur. All of his commentaries contain what the established religious leadership had developed, not what Scripture spoke of in regards to setting aside one day in seven. Dr. Chantry’s view simply goes back to what the Sabbath was and does not try to erect the straw man that the Pharisees erected. Jesus constantly tore that down.

As far as Galatians is concerned, is Paul not clearly addressing the idea that one must have faith AND keep the Law to attain justification? I haven’t heard those comments here. I have simply heard sincere believers who claim to have faith, who simply want to be obedient, not to attain justification. They simply are looking to demonstrate their love for God and for their fellow man. If all the talk of works plays into this I might want to pose this question as well: Was Moses justified? Was David justified? What about Isaiah? Ezekiel? Jeremiah? Daniel? Were they justified by faith in Christ or by the works of the Law? Clearly, just like anyone in the New Testament they were justified by faith, not works and all because of God’s grace. Yet, did they flinch against ANY of the commandments? I don’t recall there being any problem with doing that.

Do I believe Christ fulfilled the Law? Absolutely. If He didn’t we are all in serious trouble, because we are still in our sins. However, I believe He fulfilled the commandments regarding adultery, stealing, murder, lying, coveting and the others, but I still desire to obey those commands because He first loved me and I love Him in return. His love was demonstrated. I believe mine is as well.

One final thing, and I don’t really expect to hear much of it, but how many of you regard the command found in Acts 15:20 as valid, “we write to them (Gentiles) to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.” I am primarily concerned with abstaining from things strangled and from blood. I am extremely curious, since this is New Testament and given by apostolic authority to the Gentiles, how many of you will have those rare steaks or eat animals which have been strangled or partake of blood? Is this also done away with, or is it addressed elsewhere?

By the way, my comments are not meant to be argumenative or condescending. I know that sometimes gets lost in written dialogue. I genuinely bring these up for discussion.


109. Tim
February 10, 2006
11:52 PM

One final thing. I didn’t hear Andrew’s response yet to Jeremy, nor did I hear Jeremy actually deal with the context of Romans 14. I never have thought you could use Romans 14 as a serious argument concerning the fourth commandment.


110. Jeremy
February 11, 2006
12:29 AM

In Romans 14, Paul is discussing the fact that some people think they can eat anything, even “unclean” meats, while others only eat vegetables. He didn’t say one has faith that he may eat all things on certain days—just period. This has nothing to do with days—he didn’t mention days until verse 5. Then he brings up the topic of holy days and says that some people observe certain days, and some regard every day alike. At this point, if the Sabbath commandment was binding, he would have said, “Let everyone be convinced that he should keep Sunday as a holy Sabbath of rest unto the Lord” or “Let everyone be convinced that he should keep one day out of seven…”

But he doesn’t say that. He says that it is fine to regard every day alike.

I understand that you can believe in justification by faith and law-keeping. But why did Paul not tell the Galatians to be justified by faith but keep the Law out of love for God? He tells them not to keep days (4:10), he tells them to walk in the Spirit—not keep the Law.

He says to cast out the Law covenant from Sinai (4:30).

He says that if we are led by the Spirit we are not under the Law. He makes it very clear in Romans 7, that not only are we not SAVED by the Law—we have been released from the Law so that we now SERVE in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code (the Law). (Verse 6.)

He says that it is adultery to try to be married to Christ and the Law!

We our supposed to walk by the Spirit—the Law arouses our sinful passions and we bear fruit for death if we put ourselves under the Law (Rom 7:5).

IN ORDER to bear fruit for God we had to die to the Law (7:4) and be released from the Law and serve in the new way of the Spirit (7:6).

The Law was added to increase sin (Rom 5:20).

Galatians 3 also makes it so clear that the Law had not always been—it was added 430 years after Abraham it says. And it was only UNTIL the Seed (Christ) should come.

We are now under the Law of Messiah and walk by the Spirit.

Jeremy


111. Jeremy
February 11, 2006
12:34 AM

Oh, Tim, to answer your question about Acts 15—Paul says that it is ok to eat meat offered to idols, and in that context says that we should eat anything sold in the meat market (1 Cor. 10). So he’s talking about Gentile meat markets. So the meat would be non-kosher, meaning they didn’t get the blood out.

Some of the things they told the Gentiles in Acts 15 were so that they would not offend the Jews.

Jeremy


112. Jeremy
February 11, 2006
12:43 AM

As more proof that Paul did not want the Galatians to keep the Law for ANY purpose—he wrote explicitly in chapter 5 that they should NOT get circumcised.

“Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.” (verses 2-3)

Circumcision was the entrance sign to the covenant. He most certainly did not want them keeping the “remembrance sign” of the Old Covenant—the Sabbath!

We are supposed partake of the Lord’s Supper in remembrance of HIM. That is the New Covenant sign.

Jeremy


113. Tim
February 11, 2006
8:26 AM

Jeremy,

thanks for the comments.

You said, “Oh, Tim, to answer your question about Acts 15—Paul says that it is ok to eat meat offered to idols, and in that context says that we should eat anything sold in the meat market (1 Cor. 10). So he’s talking about Gentile meat markets. So the meat would be non-kosher, meaning they didn’t get the blood out.

Some of the things they told the Gentiles in Acts 15 were so that they would not offend the Jews.”

Isn’t that a huge leap there? I mean the Jerusalem Council includes things not to offend Jews? Come on. This is right along side partaking of things polluted by idols and sexual immorality. Were those there simply to not offend Jews? Ok, let’s take some of the reasoning above in some of the quotes. For instance, if it is before the Law, we can conclude that it is not a part of the Old Covenant, right. Therefore, since the Old Covenant contained the command to abstain from blood, there was also the allowing of eating meat that came before Moses to abstain from blood. Remember Genesis 9:3-4?

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

This was when meat was made available to Noah and those after the flood, though it is likely that many of those destroyed in the Flood partook of meat and blood.

You made a good point about Paul’s discussion of meat, possibly in regards to the “pollution by idols”, but didn’t you draw out of that the idea concerning blood?

Lastly, I have never pointed towards circumcision. Is anyone on this blog saying that circumcision is part of morality today? I understand you were only using it to speak in regards to the Law, but again, maybe you can address Romans 3:31.

Finally, I might ask this question: Jeremy, do you sin? If you sin, by what standard are you judging whether it is sin? Maybe that question will help me understand where you are coming from. I am in total agreement with you that we do not look to the Law for justification. The Law’s purpose was never for that and still isn’t. Christ alone can justify. You seem to indicate the Law has no purpose now whatsoever and I am trying to understand how you would view the above question.


114. Greg
February 11, 2006
11:03 AM

Many Sabbatarians, particularly those within the Seventh-day Adventist church, have misused the Law to support Sabbath-keeping and enjoin it on non-Sabbatarian Christians. That said, the reaction of some former Adventists, as displayed in the comments on this blog, creates a false dichotomy between observance of the Sabbath and following Jesus. These folks who have left Adventism seem determined to claim Jesus as their support, drawing a line in the sand between those who have Jesus (non-Sabbatarians) and those who don’t (Sabbatarians). This error is just as misguided as the error of clinging to the Sabbath as a salvation issue.

As an example of this, here are two quotes from Colleen’s comments above:

Post 74:
“The Sabbath was that kind of shadow of the perfect and complete rest we find in Jesus. Although we can leave the shadow and embrace Jesus, becoming one with Him and experiencing the water and bread of life, many of us have spent years trying to both be in Him and in the shadow.

We can’t do both. As long as we’re in the shadow, we’re trying to find that promised blessing without giving up everything—including the shadow—in favor of the Real Thing. When we’re in Christ and trusting Him completely to be all we need for moralilty and holiness and salvation, the shadow is obsolete.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because He Is the Sabbath Rest toward which the Sabbath pointed. Jesus embodies Sabbath rest.”

Post 96:
“Doug, I agree that the Sabbath is wonderful for you. I LOVED the Sabbath as an Adventist. The Sabbath, though, was never as intimate and personal as the presence of Jesus that I have experienced since I decided to risk giving up everything and entrusting myself entirely to Jesus. I had no idea how much my holding onto the shadow kept me from living in the reality of Him.”

The conclusions drawn by Colleen are not supported by Scripture. Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Sabbath observance is mutually exclusive with following Jesus. Ironically, this mentality is not unlike the mentality of many Adventists who draw a line in the sand from the other side of the debate.

What I’m suggesting is that Romans 14 cuts both ways, and anti-Sabbatarian arguments are refuted in just the same way as the Sabbatarian ones. The arrogant, self-assured statements from both sides are clearly exposed as error. If we want to remain solidly rooted in Scripture, we are to embrace our Christian bretheren regardless of the day they choose to gather together. The endless debates on the Sabbath would be completely unneccessary if more people understood this.

When I see statements as posted above, it’s apparent that none of us has a perfect theology or understanding of Truth. The triumphalistic attitude displayed by those on both sides of this debate is really just two sides of the same obnoxious coin.

Greg


115. Chad
February 11, 2006
12:22 PM

Greg,

All that the ‘anti-sabbatarians’ are claiming is the truth of Rom. 14. They are simply claiming that the Lord Jesus Christ has left us free from the obligation to keep the Sabbath that was incumbant upon Old cov. people. It is the Sabbatarians who are claiming that we are not free under the Lordship of Christ to either keep or not keep.

I don’t think anyone here on this post has been saying it is morally wrong to keep the Sabbath on a personal level. But the Sabbatarians, as I understand the argument and debate, are not just those who keep the Sabbath, but who maintain that others must as well. Surely you can see a difference here.


116. Chad
February 11, 2006
12:26 PM

Greg,

Also, what does teh Sabbath have to do with gettign together with other Christians? I understand that the great majority of church history demonstrates that it has been the practice of most Christians to get together on the first day of the week.

Obviously thereare pious and good reasons for doing that. But do not equate this discussion of Sabbath keeping with the command to not forsake the gathering of yourselves together. no one is questioning that. These are not the same command.

CT


117. Jeremy
February 11, 2006
12:59 PM

Tim,

The epistles of Paul very clearly show that the issue of meats offered to idols is not a moral issue—but that one should abstain from them if he is weak in the faith or if it will be offensive to his brother. Right there, Paul makes it clear that not everything on the Acts 15 list is sin in itself.

You’re right that the issue of blood is from before the Mosaic covenant. But the sacrificing of animals (even divided into clean and unclean—not for food, but for sacrifices) to God also pre-dates the Mosaic covenant. The context in 1 Cor. 10 is about idols—but it can also deal with the issues of unclean meats and blood. If I am told by Paul to eat anything that is sold in the (Gentile) meat market—then I am going to be eating meat offered to idols, unclean meats, and meats with blood in them.

And in the same chapter, if I am told that if an unbeliever invites me and I wish to go, that I should eat anything that is set before me—that would have to include non-kosher meats.

I am curious—do you only eat kosher-certified meats, Tim? How could we be allowed to eat the “unclean” meats such as pork, if we could only eat kosher (blood-drained) meats? There is no such thing as kosher pork. :) (BTW, even strict kosher meats do have some blood in them.)

I do not believe that the Law has no purpose. It can still be used “lawfully” Paul says. It can still be used to point people to Jesus. It is a shadow of Him. It can be used to prove that He is the Messiah. It speaks beautifully of Jesus, and has glorious pictures of Him. Without the Law, we can not see Jesus as the fulfillment of it.

You ask how I judge whether something is sin. For starters, anything said to be wrong in the Law of Christ (New Covenant) is sin, and whatever it says to do that we do not do, is sin. In addition, anything the Spirit convicts me of as wrong and I do it, that is sin. Likewise, anything the Spirit convicts me of to do and I do not do it, is sin. Also, whatever is not from faith is sin. Also, if we know to do good, and do not do it, that is sin.

Jeremy


118. Andrew Moody
February 11, 2006
12:59 PM

Tim, Jeremy, et. all. I’m not ducking out of the discussion, but am busy finishing my preperations for two sermons tommorrow, as well as an inquirer’s class. I’ll return to the discussion on Monday, Lord willing.

Have a wonderful Lord’s Day tommorrow!


119. Chad
February 11, 2006
1:01 PM

Tim,

What is the difference between the 10th commandment, of the ‘10’ and say, the 8th commandment? I am going somewhere with this …

Also, regarding the Acts 15 jerusalem council, and accepting an early date for Galatians, it seems pretty clear that the issue was not just offense to jewish Christians, but also, the safety of Jewish Christians in Jerusalem in connection with Peter’s fear fo the circumcision party and the delegation from James. (Witherington’s commentary ‘Grace in Galatia’ is very good here.) It is not a stretch, as I see it, to read all four prohibitions of the Jerusalem coucil as referring to pagan practices concerning worship (cf. 1 Cor.), meat market, etc. All things pertaining, especially in Gentile lands, to the uncleanliness and idolatry within the temple.

So, like you I see it difficult to remove all theological or moral reference here whatsoever. And as such, I understand it to coincide with Paul’s teaching to theThessolonians and the corinthians regarding their association with pagan temples. For example, it is ok to eat food that has been sacrificed to idols privately in your own home, but it is not ok to do so in the pagan temple, where such ‘porneia’ was practiced along with the actual sacrifices to idols, etc. It is clear teh James’ concern is primarily one of witness. (15:21 - Moses is read in every city on the Sabbath)

Finally, it will be difficult to identify in a 1=1 equation the commands given in the letter fo the JC and any specific OT passage. Scholars are pretty much in agreement that there are no known parallels to a selection of these 4 commands from teh Law of Moses which are made to be binding on Gentiles.

CT


120. Tim
February 11, 2006
2:12 PM

Chad,

Thanks for the question, though I am not sure what to say. What is the difference between 8 and 10? Do you mean that one specifically deals with the intents of the heart, while the other deals with the outward expression of those intentions? That can also be related to number 6, 7, and 9. Is that what you mean? If so, I recall a study of the 10 commandments and if the argument would be this is what Jesus was doing was getting at the heart, I would agree, but is that different than what the OT taught? The OT taught that at the root of all violations of the 10, was the heart.

Looking forward to where this leads:)

Jeremy,

I in no way am promoting kosher foods. What I am saying it spoken specifically towards the eating of blood, not pork or things of that nature.


121. Chad
February 11, 2006
3:17 PM

Tim,

What I mean is that the difference between the 10th commandment, and say the 8th, etc. is that it explicitly deals with the heart. Now, you keep saying that the 8th commandment prohibits hatred in all forms directed at people. Yet nowhere in the 10 commandments is this stated. You want to make them say that because you have already committed to the view that the 10 comandments must be the unchanging moral law of God. Therefore, if anyone (esp. Christ) later mentions any of these commandments in context of moral law, that person must be simply expounding on the meaning which was already understood to be contained within the 10 commandments themselves.

I am giong to try to show you that this is not the case, and that such a view is untenable.

Allow me some room as I make my case.

This may take a few posts.

1) Let’s look at the relationship fo the 10 commandments to the rest of the Old Cov. I say that they are foundational, and that the other laws are explanations, clarifications, and expansions upon the principles and laws laid down in the 10. Sort of like a constitution. All other laws are built upon, or have their legality within the confines of, the 10 commandments. This is important, to understand.

None of the commands of Moses violates the 10 commandments. God did not command one thing on Mt. Sinai and another with Moses in the tent of meeting. The 10 comm. are the foundation of the O.C. Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 that they are essentially tied in with the O.C. Also, in the OT we find Exod. 34:28 says, “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”

In Deut. 9:9, 11 we read “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you, I remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights. I neither ate bread nor drank water … And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.” Again in Deut. 9:15, “So I turned and came down from the mountain, and the mountain was burning with fire. And the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands.”

Also, something that is rather obvious, but which slips by most people, is that the ark is the ‘ark of the covenant’, meaning not that it is the ark associated with the Mosaic cov. but rather it is the ark which contains the covenant. The word ark means chest, or coffin, or container. And what was in the ark but the ten commandments. These were the foundational laws of the covenant.

So the 10 commandments are essentially tied to the Mosaic Covenant.

Nowhere does Moses claim that these are eternal truths. They may be eternal moral laws, but Moses does not describe them as such. Moses essentially describes them as the tables of the covenant between he and Israel.

Most people tend to think of the Ten commandments as being mentioned in the Old Cov. as though they were just part of it. But essentially, we are instructed to think of the 10 comm. as being essentially the O.C.

Can you agree thus far?

CT


122. Tim
February 11, 2006
4:00 PM

ok, I can follow your thinking and I am listening to what you said, but I think the exposition or as you said other laws that were based on the 10 do actually deal with the heart, not just the actions.


123. Chad
February 11, 2006
4:59 PM

Tim,

OK. I am not saying that the other laws necessarily do not deal with matters of the heart. In fact, some of the laws later mentioned by Moses clearly refer to matters of the heart. ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart …” So certainly some of these later commands deal with the heart. What I am saying is that those later commands are not the ‘ten commandments’. They either find their basis and foundation in the ten, such as I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other God before me, or they find their legality from those ten commandments, meaning that they do not contradict the ten commands of the covenant.

But surely we can agree that the ten commandments do not read, “Thou shalt not offer unto God a blemished sacrifice.” My point is that the ten commandments themselves do not say that. That is not what was written on the tablets of stone. You have to go to the rest of the law of the covenant to find out what God means, exactly, by “you shall have no other gods before me.”

2) Now to the second point of argument. For this I will use the Sabbath as our example. I do this not for any particularly germane reason, but simply because it is a clear example. What we find in the O.C. is a litany of rules and regulations regarding the keeping of the Sabbath.

All of these are explanations of what God means by saying, “keep the Sabbath” We learn that in the law of the Cov., or the 10 commandments, that would mean ceasing from almost all work on the Sabbath. It would mean preparing meals on Friday to provide for rest on Sunday. It would mean no fires, it would mean not leaving the house for ordinary reasons, a rest from all of that. ‘A holy convocation in all your dwellings.’ A day of rest unto God. men who disregarded it and gathered on the Sabbath were to be put to death.
All of these things are laws regarding the keeping of the Sabbath. They are explaining and clarifying and defining what was said in the 4th commandment. They are part of the same covenant. They fill up what it means to keep the Sabbath as part of the O.C. Without these clarifications it may not be clear to the people just how he wanted them to keep it, at least when it came to the particulars.

Conversely, to demonstrate the legality of all other commands, that they do not violate the 10 commandments, we could site God’s commands to kill the inhabitants of the land when Israel invades. This is not a violation of the command not to murder. It is also not a violation of the command to take a life for a life. Here, the command is not to murder, but the later commands are not a violation of the foundational covenant. In fact, they actually support it and enforce it.

I am not necessarily advancing the argument here, but merely showing how my first point works.

Can you agree with this as well? I want us to be clear on what we are talking about.

CT


124. Tim
February 11, 2006
5:11 PM

Chad,

Can you explain what you mean when you say “they actually support it and enforce it”?


125. Chad
February 11, 2006
5:14 PM

I said in the last post, “It would mean preparing meals on Friday to provide for rest on Sunday.”

Obviously this should read, ” … rest on Saturday.”

Rather embarassing.

CT


126. Chad
February 11, 2006
5:20 PM

Tim,

I just mean that the command to rid the land of its possessors is meant to facilitate pure worship unto God, as the texts make clear. And that the command to take an eye for an eye can be seen not as a violation for murder, but as an actual protection of life. I.E. Death penalty.

Easy enough, but I appreciate your desire to make be be as clear as possible.

CT


127. Tim
February 11, 2006
5:24 PM

Ok, thanks. I got it.


128. Chad
February 11, 2006
6:43 PM

Tim,

OK, good. Now we can start making some progress.

3) I want to consider the command against adultery. Obviously there are things in the rest of the O.C. laws which speak to this issue. (I do not see the 10th commandment as prohibiting lust as a man may wish to have another man’s wife for a number of reasons — just ask John Wesley! whose wife was a disaster to his ministry.)

It is categorically prohibited in the Decalogue: “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” In more specific language we read: “And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife, to defile thyself with her” (Lev 18:20). The penalty is death for both guilty parties: “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” (Lev 20:10). Even a woman betrothed to a husband was subject to the law of adultery. (Deut. 22:23)

Now, we are in agreement that these laws, because they are part of the same covenant, will not violate the ten commandments. In fact, if anything, they clarify for us what was meant by God in those commands of the Old Covenant.

Now we also read Moses tell the people in Deut. 24:1-4:

“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man’s wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.”

Now, this further clarifies what is allowed, and not allowed in the Covenant documents of the 10 Commandments. Ad we may be certain that nothing in the law of Moses will contradict the meaning of those documents. Again, this is important, because what we have here is God himself interpreting the 7th commandment as it was given to Israel at Mt. Sinai. As it was meant to be understood in the O.C.


129. Chad
February 11, 2006
6:44 PM

4) Next step:
But what do we find in this respect from the lips of Christ?

Matthew 19:1-9:
“Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

The common Reformed interpretation of this passage is that Christ is here rescuing this piece of Mosaic legislation from the perversion of the Pharisees. And certainly he is doing that. Further, the interpretation goes on, stating that Christ is harking back to the real meaning of the 7th commandment, as the Mosaic law in question essentially deals with the 7th commandment. But I believe that Christ is not doing that at all.

Let me explain. While it is true that Christ is rescuing this piece of Mosaic legislation from its perversion, it is not true that he is simply doing that. Notice, they said, ‘Moses commanded …’ and he says in correction, ‘Moses allowed …’ The traditional understanding of the passage gets that right. But look at what he affirms, not just what he denies! (This is amazing to me)

He actually says that Moses allowed this practice. He also affirmed that from the beginning of time God has not allowed it, nor does he in his kingdom. Nevertheless, Moses allowed it. We must be clear on this. “Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” Wow!

In other words, the Mosaic covenant (i.e. Moses allowed) allowed this action which Christ condemns as adultery. Further, this means that the 7th commandment, as wonderful as it is, cannot contain the prohibition which Christ here gives.

5) At least in this case, it is a wrong practice to poor into the 7th commandment, as given through Moses on Sinai, all biblical teaching regarding adultery.

The 7th commandment, as meant and intended from Sinai, is not the highest teaching regarding adultery. If you want the highest teaching regarding adultery, if you want the true prohibition about this, you go to Christ who lays it down in its highest form.

I have much more here, and will answer the glaring question about Christ’s “have you not read …” and his “from the beginning it was not so” But for now, understand that Christ says that Moses allowed the practice. It was not a violation of the covenant which came down from Moses. It was not a violation of the tablets of the Covenant.

Deut. 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.”

Christ says – “Moses allowed … and I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” He condemns the man that Moses does not. And he does so because God does not approve of the practice, nor has he ever. He says, “from the beginning it was not so.” His declaration that they are required to not separate is bound up with the unchanging moral law of God. But this unchanging moral law of God is absolutely not the law that Moses gave. In fact, if we understand Christ’s words correctly, it is most certainly not found in the Old Covenant given to Israel as Mt. Sinai.

Tim, Do you follow? Any questions/objections/clarifications on what I am saying here?

Chad


130. Tim
February 11, 2006
10:34 PM

I follow what you are saying, but I guess I am wondering about the point, since in fact Jesus did state that this was so from the beginning. Not only that, but I don’t see how it was not a violation. Its simply took on how to deal with it in the society. If it wasn’t a violation, then why is there defilement mentioned? However, before I ask further questions in regards to the specific item your are addressing (adultery, divorce and remarriage), I will wait and see how you continue it.


131. Chad
February 11, 2006
11:58 PM

Could you clarify your questions? I am not clear on what you are asking here.

In short, and I will continue later, I woudl say that point is that the 10 Commandments are not the unchanging moral law of God. They are a lower form of law. It will be a few more steps before we get to anything regarding the Sabbath, but these things are foundational.

CT


132. Colleen
February 12, 2006
3:46 AM

Chad, I’ve enjoyed your analysis of the Mosaic law and what it IS and ISN’T. Great insights and examples. I loved the clarity of your comment, “that the 10 Commandments are not the unchanging moral law of God.” That is exactly what I have meant but haven’t stated so clearly.

The “10 Words” cannot summarize God’s moral law. If they could, they would necessarily be eternal instead of given, as Paul points out in Galatians 3, 430 years after Abraham until the Seed would come. They are a derivation of God’s eternal law, to be sure—but not THE eternal moral law. Only God Himself can contain—can BE—the eternal moral law.

BTW, I am not opposed to people observing a day as holy unto the Lord. I am opposed to the suggestion that such observance is required in the New Covenant.

I realize that the passion many of us former Adventists feel about walking away from required Sabbath observance may seem like a knee-jerk response to people looking on. In reality, however, because the Sabbath had such a spiritual “claim” on us—believing as we did that it was the “seal of God” or, at the least, the “sign of the seal” and thus coming dangerously close to blaspheming the role of the Holy Spirit—the idea of NOT observing the seventh day evoked deep fear of apostasy.

Much like Paul’s writing to the Corinthians about not eating meat offered to idols so as not to offend the consciences of the weak who would associate such eating with pagan rituals [while Paul himself said he could eat such meat because the idols meant nothing to him], so we have had to deliberately “abandon” the seventh-day Sabbath as an act of trust and of placing our complete faith in Jesus alone. It was terrifying to break, deliberately, that day. It meant we were no longer hedging our bets. Either Jesus was enough—or we were lost.

Jesus IS enough. His confirmation of His presence is not possible to explain to someone who hasn’t had to give up such an “idol” which had such “biblical” and salvational overtones.

What this experience has taught me is that the OT Sabbath was, truly a shadow. It is certainly not wrong for someone to observe a day. Clearly, however, the NT doesn’t command such observance, and there isn’t necessarily special blessing or sanctification to be found in such observance. Of course, some people might experience God’s special blessing if they dedicate a day to Him. But God does not require honoring a day. He requires that we honor Jesus.

One last puzzlement: I still do not understand how Christians satisfy themselves that the OT command to keep Sabbath, explicitly described to be the seventh day, can be understood to be “changed” to the first day in the NT. I understand the church tradition behind this observance, but I do not see how the fourth commandment—or Genesis 2—can be construed as Biblical support or proof for considering the first day to be Sabbath.

I would have more respect for Sunday observance being acknowledged to be based on church tradition than I have for the attempts to justify it based on the fourth commandment or on the creation account.

Just my particular view on the subject…

Colleen


133. PuritanD
February 12, 2006
4:29 AM

Jeremy

[quote]Also, the Sabbath is based on the Exodus—see Deut. 5.[/quote]

I am not trying to be a stickler here but Ex 20:11 seems quite clear stating “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.” And if memory serves correctly, Deut. was written for the second generation and not the first that actually did receive the decalogue from God.

[quote]God’s rest was not a Sabbath—He simply ceased creating the world. That’s all it says He “rested” from (John 5, Jesus says that God has always been working and not keeping Sabbath). So if He was “resting” from the work of Creation—did He start creating again the next week? NO! It was not a 1 day rest—it was an eternal rest. He CEASED creating on the 7th day. And He did not start again on Sunday or Monday or any other day.[/quote]

Again, Exodus20:11 makes your argument difficult to accept here. Your assumption here dictates that God must continue onward with creation after resting to be a Sabbath. Why? BTW: How do you know God’s rest was not a Sabbath?

But I do agree that He ceased his work on the seventh day hence the example of resting. Just because He rested from creation does not mean that He stopped all his work. Maybe He did somethings else on Sunday like visit with Adam and Eve, made them some garments, or even kicked them out of the Garden. Even that, maybe He started teaching them things about Himself and the need to rest on the seventh day.

[quote]How could a Gentile believer possibly automatically understand that he was supposed to keep the Sabbath day holy, rest, and do no work? The Gentiles were definitely not used to keeping the Sabbath.[/quote]

Most of the Gentiles that did come to faith were ones who were known as God-fearers. They did not become Jews but recognize the importance of the Scriptures. Why does Paul refer so much to the OT and the Law if the Gentiles were clueless on it? If Paul argues regarding the Law would not one think that the Gentiles are fully aware of the Sabbath? Even mentioning the Sabbath as you quote would assume that the Gentiles knew about it.

I was not suggesting that the NT does not talk about the Sabbath, but I was mentioning that Christ does not reject the practice of such a thing, since He never denounces it but corrects the abuses of it.

Surely, we can differentiate between Paul’s arguments regarding Salvation is not of the Law and “Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (Romans 3:31),” in our daily living.

I hope that this may clear up where I am coming from.

PuritanD


134. Tim
February 12, 2006
7:21 AM

The issue I am bringing up concerning defilement of a divorced person, specifically it is spoken of as a woman in the Old Testament. The passage you quoted earlierspeaks to that. The Levitical priests were not to marry a divorced woman because of defilement. Is that defilement not tied to sin? BTW, Coleen, I am not disputing what you are saying about Christ. He is the Lawgiver. Therefore he is the eternal Law. There is no question about that. This is why I was going to hold my questions till Chad was finished:)


135. Ellen
February 12, 2006
9:32 AM

I was not suggesting that the NT does not talk about the Sabbath, but I was mentioning that Christ does not reject the practice of such a thing, since He never denounces it but corrects the abuses of it.

Jesus was a Jew and was under the Mosaic Law until the New Covenant was in place, which was not while He was walking the earth.

Here”>Here”>http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/read_articles.asp?id=21”>Here is a story with some thought provoking implications.


136. Ellen
February 12, 2006
9:33 AM

The Levitical priests were not to marry a divorced woman because of defilement. Is that defilement not tied to sin?

And if the woman’s sin was to have been abandoned by her husband?


137. Chad
February 12, 2006
9:51 AM

Tim,

To be sure there is some continuity here. Such as the defilement issue. In the OC the man is not allowed to go and remarry the women which he was allowed to put away for an indecency. If he does, he is defiled. In the NC, he is not allowed to put her away for an indecency. If he does he is defiled and a lawbreaker.

I don’t understand how you cannot see this. Christ clearly condemns what Moses allows. And in doing so he appeals not only to his own moral authority (i.e. he is the proper judge to determine the will of God and interpret the Scriptures) but he also appeals to the moral law of God which does not change while we are on this earth (i.e. there is no law concerning divorce, etc. in the new heavens and earth).

In other words, he pits the ‘law of God’ against the law of Moses. And instead of them balancing out on the scale, the ‘law of God’tips the scale in its favor, leaving the law of Moses wanting. This does not make the law of Moses evil, or unspiritual, but it does mean that it is not the most good, holy, just, and spiritual form of law that there is.

Now, back to where we started, we will come full circle, and then take off in another direction.

from post 121:
“What I mean is that the difference between the 10th commandment, and say the 8th, etc. is that it explicitly deals with the heart. Now, you keep saying that the 8th commandment prohibits hatred in all forms directed at people. Yet nowhere in the 10 commandments is this stated. You want to make them say that because you have already committed to the view that the 10 comandments must be the unchanging moral law of God. Therefore, if anyone (esp. Christ) later mentions any of these commandments in context of moral law, that person must be simply expounding on the meaning which was already understood to be contained within the 10 commandments themselves.

I am giong to try to show you that this is not the case, and that such a view is untenable.”

I believe I have proved my case. The 10 Commandments were/are not the unchanging moral law of God. Or we could say this, whatever God was doing in the giving of the 10 commandments, we can know for certain that he was not giving a set of commands for all people at all time. Essentially, these commands were the basic covenant stipulations between God and the people of Israel. And we now know for certain that at least some of those laws CANNOT be identified with the perfect law of God.

I would entertain the opinion that we should abandon this type of terminology all together, but that is another matter.

once you can see that Christ is not afraid to do this with the law of Moses, then I believe your blinders have been removed, so that you can see what is really happening in the Sermon on the Mount. You can see what really happened in the New Covenant. Also, and perhaps this is the mostimportant thing for any in the reformed camp, you are open to the possibility taht the old and new covenants do not relate to one another as parts 1 and 2 of one covenant of grace. Rather, they relate as type and anti-type.

more later
CT


138. Chad
February 12, 2006
9:58 AM

Colleen,

Thanks for your words of encouragement. Glad these thougths have been helpful. This last post was a bit rushed, as I am heading out the door, so I hope it is clear as well.

CT


139. Ellen
February 12, 2006
10:09 AM

Tim, here’s a big (BIG) problem with your statement that a priest couldn’t marry a woman defiled by divorce.

It was divorce that defiled, it was prostitution. And priests also couldn’t marry widows. Please tell me how I would have been defiled by the “sin” of having my husband get cancer and die?

Seriously. If you import “defiled” from “defiled by prostitution to divorce, then you must import it to widow also.

Here is the correct quote:

Lev. 21:13 ” ‘The woman he marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, 15 so he will not defile his offspring among his people. I am the LORD, who makes him holy.


140. Ellen
February 12, 2006
10:34 AM

I would have more respect for Sunday observance being acknowledged to be based on church tradition than I have for the attempts to justify it based on the fourth commandment or on the creation account.

That is where I am at. I worship on Sundays because that is the tradition, not because it’s law.


141. Tim
February 12, 2006
2:54 PM

Thanks Chad,

I see your point and understand what you are saying. I don’t know that I ever held the conviction of part 1 and 2 of covenant of grace, though I must say that all men were saved by grace through faith whether Old or New Covenant. Thanks for taking the time to explain your position. It really helps.


142. Tim
February 12, 2006
2:59 PM

Ellen,

Thanks for your comments. You are correct. I was commenting off the top of my head, which I should not do, but thanks for your correction.


143. Chad
February 12, 2006
5:25 PM

Regarding the Sabbath:

These statements are not following from my earlier posts. They are directly related to the Sabbath and I believe pose a real challenge to those who maintain that all Christians are required to observe a regulatory weekly Sabbath.

Colleen and maybe others have pointed this out, but we could ask, “If the Sabbath observance is a creation ordinance, part of the unchanging moral law of God, then how can it be that it changes days. In other words, murder did not change. Adultery did not change. All these things were sins from teh beginning. so how is it that IF God mandated a Saturday Sabbath at creation, and IF he reaffirmed such in the Old Covenant and the prophets, then how is it that in the NC the day suddenly changes? It is part of the unchanging moral law of God, so it can’t just change.”

next point of contention:
This question is for Sabbatarians.

Would you have dinner with me as Christian fellowship if I was a murderer, not had murdered in the past, but was actively engaged a life of murder? Or what if I had two wives and taught that all Christians should do the same?

Have you had Christian fellowship with those who are actively involved in an non-Sabbatarian position? how can you justify this?

Also, when is the last time your church disciplined someone for the way in which they keep the Sabbath? What would constitute a sufficient violation of the Sabbath to warrant church discipline?

I think that you will not be able to answer these questions in truth and still hold your position.

CT


144. Chad
February 12, 2006
7:18 PM

PuritanD,

I think you may have misunderstood Paul’s comments in Romans 3:31. Paul says, “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. ” What is “this” faith? This faith, is this understanding of faith being the sole instrument by which we gain a right standing with God apart from any law-keeping on our part.

What does he mean, “we uphold the law”? He means just what he goes on to explain. This is always Paul’s method of answering these objections.

1)the question
“do we then overthrow the law by this faith”
2)strong denial
By no means!
3)short answer
We uphold/establish the law
4)extended answer
an exegetical look at Gen. and its teaching about faith and righteousness (chp. 4)

In other words, uphold the law, in Rom. 3:31, is not a reference to the day to day life of the Christian; that is found in Rom. 8 when Paul says that Christians are people who WALK by the Spirit and thus fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.

Paul follows this same pattern in the following sections of Romans
6:1-14
6:15-23
7:7-12
7:13-25
9:14ff
and elsewhere

CT


145. Tim
February 12, 2006
8:19 PM

Chad,

Thanks for your comments they were helpful. I personally have struggled with discipline issues regarding the Sabbath issue. However, I don’t think the whole Saturday-Sunday issue is really part of the command anyway. There is simply the principle of 6 days working and the next in line, the 7th, is spent in rest. I never saw the word Saturday throughout the OT. Maybe it is a big issue. It was not one I really considered.


146. Jeremy
February 12, 2006
8:24 PM

Great points, Chad!

Also, if we are to uphold the Law then we must NOT keep it. Deut. 18 says to listen to Jesus when He comes “like Moses” as a New Lawgiver giving a New Law to replace Moses and the Mosaic Law, and God said the same at the Transfiguration and took away Moses (Law) and Elijah (Prophets).

Jeremy


147. Chad
February 12, 2006
11:58 PM

Jeremy, Colleen, Tim, Ellen,

I would be open to any of you emailing me privately regarding this or other issues.

I would also welcome anyone else who has genuine questions/comments/objections on this issue.

If you do email me, please include something obvious in the subject line - stupid spam mail ;-) .

cat721@earthlink.net

Especially Jeremy, if you would email me I would send you a short article I wrote on Gal. 2. It relates very closely to your last post.

I don’t plan on commenting any longer on this subject. I had planned on working out my line of thought through to the Sabbath issue, but looking at so many of the previous posts by Colleen, Jeremy, Ellen and others, it just seems that it would be superfluous. they have all done a wonderful job in their presentation, though I do not necessarily agree with all that they have suggested on each point.

CT


148. Colleen
February 13, 2006
12:13 AM

Great insights above! Chad, thank you again.

Tim, as far as the importance of the seventh day goes, the Jews certainly saw the specific day as important. God didn’t give them the option of keeping any day but the seventh as a memorial of His rest at the end of Creation week. I understand how the significance of the day could have become blurred over the passing centuries, but if one really studies the OT, the Sabbath was not a mandate to keep any one of seven. It was to keep ONLY the seventh as the sign of the covenant.

If the law is still binding today as a rule of faith and practice, one really must keep the seventh day because that clear mandate was never changed. Fulfilled—yes; changed, no.

Also, regarding upholding the law: Even as Christ-followers, we need the law as our evidence of Jesus’ identity. Without its guaranteed permanence, we would have no clear evidence that Jesus was the One who fulfilled it. Anyone could have claimed to be the Messiah; with the law as our template, however, we can see that Jesus fulfilled every symbol, ceremony, and shadow of it. Only He is worthy to claim the identity of Messiah, Son of God, Savior, Redeemer, high priest, Lamb of God, Immanuel, our Substitute.

He is everything.

Colleen


149. Brian
February 13, 2006
12:17 AM

Avoid vain strivings about the Law. Jesus knows our hearts. Many will say in that day Lord Lord. Jesus will not be too happy with those who trample His law and attempt to explain it away because they no longer wish to have it written their hearts. Should we make void the law through faith God forbid. To those who wish to quote Romans 14 as their way out do not egnore the greater context of the passage. It’s not about abolishing the Sabbath it is however about judging each other.


150. Boyfrienddan
February 13, 2006
7:39 AM

To Colleen, Jeremy

I’ve just finished comment #149, and have enjoyed the discussions so far. I have a question for both of you regarding the concept of the relationship between the decalogue, Abraham, and the promised seed.

Given that we are counting on these to institutionalize or not Sabbath-observance at face value, what were the basis of sin, say, before the fall? Or after the fall? Before the flood? After the flood? Or more clearly, before the Abraham promise?

Thanks.


151. Mrs. Mitchell
February 13, 2006
3:32 PM

Chelsey I think pointed out something that has stuck in my mind through all of this discussion.

one should examine their heart and think about their motives for not wanting to make the Sabbath a day of rest.

Have you done this, those of you who argue we are not under law, that we need to acknowledge the grace of Christ, that he came and fulfilled the law, etc. All these issues are true, yet perhaps we have missed the boat in trying to analyze away the need to commit to this. It would certainly involve change, something that is never initially easy.

Try blessing yourself and someone you know or love this week on the sabbath by resting and honoring our Lord, instead of what activity you might usually do that may only lead to rushing around and wasting time.
Just a thought…


152. Colleen
February 13, 2006
4:19 PM

Boyfrienddan, Romans 5:12-14 is explicitly clear how people before Sinai were judged sinful:

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—for before the law was given sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.”

The 10 Commandments were not the basis of sin before the law was given. Adam’s sin was the basis of mankind’s sin (see also 1 Corinthians 15:21-22). Before the time of Moses, Paul is saying, Adam was the only one who broke a direct command of God: do not eat of the fruit. That disobedience resulted in his sin—and ours. We are sinners because of Adam, and before Sinai, mankind were sinners because Adam sinned, and in Adam we all died.

It’s true that sin is the trangsression of the law; we insult God, however, if we equate His eternal law with the 10 Commandments. He Himself is the Law. All Law resides in and originates in God. God’s law is much more than the decalogue. Indeed, God’s law included His command to Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden fruit. His law also included the implicit request that they trust Him even when the reason for his stated command didn’t make sense.

No, the decalogue was not necessary for mankind to be sinful. The Decalogue/Sinai law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed would come (Gal. 3: 15-25). It was added “so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more…” (Romans 5:20).

When humanity finally had the law to explain what sin looked like, sin actually increased. It did not decrease. It’s like putting a “do not spit” sign next to a sidewalk. Before the sign was there, you probably never thought of spitting. Once the sign is there, spitting becomes a focus, and temptation is born. THAT was the purpose of the law: making mankind AWARE of what was sinful and driving him into temptation and sin so that he would discover his depravity and desire rescue.

The law was for the purpose of holding us prisoners, “locked up until faith should be revealed. The law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law” (Gal. 3:23-24).

No, the written law was not in view between Adam and Moses. Sin reigned, but humanity had so supressed the knowledge of God by their wickedness (Romans 1:18-20) that they had become largely unconscious that they were sinful sinners. God gave the law to bring them back to consciousness—and to the desperation that would drive them to humble themselves before God and to awaken a desire for their Savior.

God’s Law does not equal the Decalogue. God’s Law is embodied in God Himself. To call the decalogue His eternal law is to insult Him. He is our Law and Lawgiver.

Colleen


153. Boyfrienddan
February 13, 2006
9:36 PM

Thanks Colleen.

“It’s true that sin is the trangsression of the law; we insult God, however, if we equate His eternal law with the 10 Commandments. He Himself is the Law. All Law resides in and originates in God. God’s law is much more than the decalogue. Indeed, God’s law included His command to Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden fruit. His law also included the implicit request that they trust Him even when the reason for his stated command didn’t make sense.”

I would like to know too, what God’s eternal law is, what its basis is, and how to make sense out of it.

Allow me, however, to get into a matter of hypotheses (if you don’t mind.)

1) The Pharisees in Jesus’ time were the only ones who said He was breaking the Sabbath law. Upon closer inspection (especially in His dialogues with them in the gospel of John), “What have law have I broken for you to have a reason to stone me?” the answer was not because of the Sabbath, but because they deemed Him blasphemous for equating Himself with God. My hypothesis for this one (if you don’t mind) is that Jesus’s teaching is a reversal of the common practice that was prevalent in the post-captive Jewish nation. Remember that the reason for their captivity, and almost-destruction as an entire nation, is because of their transgressions. Post-captivity, their idea of “transgression” was in effect, closely tied to their “works.” Jesus reversed this by making sure the Sabbath was recontemplated to mean as a blessing, and not an obligation. In a sense, Jesus did not break the Sabbath law. He was reestablishing it.

2) I still can’t see how one can read Hebrew 3 and 4 and miss the points “there remains,” “when you hear God’s word, do not harden your hearts,” and the rest of the discussions. I noticed in two of the posts here however, when the question arises that Sunday becomes the Sabbath, and is kept as such, it is held to be “what the early church has established.” We read the whole letter to the Ephesians and we read of the early church as being as faulty too. “Doctrine of man?”

3) That grace is still something that we don’t deserve, but is freely given. Romans and its discussions present the view towards believers themselves. “Do we continue in sin?” In defining that, “truly, sin is a transgression of the law.” How does one, even a believer in Christ, be able to “continue in sin?” if the background (the mirror of the law) of sin seems to have been abolished?

4) Why is it that we can’t reverse the other laws of the decalogue, and nail them at the cross too, and only the Sabbath commandment? Tim’s question seems simplistic, yet severe: Why just keep the other 9, when there were ten. Sure Colleen, we insult God if we box Him by just defining Him as reflected in the 10 commandments. But aren’t we still boxing Him by saying that He is less than that either? (“For the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD our GOD,” not saying that the Sabbath is ours. It is still His. It is FOR us, as the NT says.)

5) Keeping the Sabbath DOES NOT earn you salvation. Nor will honoring your father and mother. Nor is making sure that you don’t profane God’s Name. So why follow these “moral laws” if you can’t be saved by them anyway? Does it mean that being saved by grace alone, we are free to do anything? Where and how do we draw the line? “Faith without works is dead.” “You are saved by faith through grace in Jesus Christ.” If we live that, “Our faith is evidenced by works.” The “Jews” (because not all of them) were only in the pitfall for believing they could “work” for their salvation (thus, keeping the Sabbath for them was of redeeming value). As followers of Christ, we believe that we are saved, and thus, do according to good works. I don’t have any problem with accepting this fact, because Jesus Himself said, “If you do not believe me for what I say, then believe my deeds.”

6) Finally, since faith does become a very central truth in the acceptance of grace, why is it that we don’t have much faith in a God who can tell us that He has created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh? If we are asking God for His eternal purposes, and it is evidently laid out for us, (i.e, a Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4), why can’t we just TRUST Him that this is good for us? (Read Jeremiah 42-44)

None of us can keep any law, not against adultery, not the Sabbath, if there was no Redemption through Christ. “Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12


154. Jeff
February 13, 2006
11:27 PM

I am having trouble believing that I counted nearly 39,000 words in the above comments dating back the last 8 days, and all because of a book report.

I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but you people have not shed any light at all on the subject. All you seem to have done is tickle each other with how much you believe you know.

If a person wanted to know about Sabbath rest (a very important NT concept), I could not recommend that he read your posts. He would go away confused and disheartened. He might even say, if these are Christians, there is no such thing as rest.

What is your point? Does any of you even know what the point is?

Let me repeat for the theological students: 39,000 words! 94 pages in Microsoft Word.

I say, take a break, take a nap. Rest a while. You are not clearing a way through the forest. The trees have gotten in your way.


155. Colleen
February 13, 2006
11:33 PM

Boyfrienddan, I know all of the arguments you present above intimately. I learned all of them in Adventism. And all of them are created and sustained in order to preserve the doctrine of seventh-day Sabbath-keeping. Even more deeply, this doctrine MUST be defended because of the “counsel” of Ellen White and her unique teachings about the alleged great controversy, the prophesied national and international Sunday law, and the teaching (now often avoided by never abandoned) that “keeping Sunday” is the mark of the beast.

At the core, the arguments you present are not for the purpose of exalting Christ and His finished work. Adventism does not truly teach Christ’s “finished” work. In fact, it clearly teaches (officially) that one cannot know whether or not he is saved eternally. He can only know from moment to moment whether or not he is likely saved; he cannot know the future for sure. These are unbiblical teachings.

The Bible does not mandate Saturday observance for Christians. Even the Reformed theologians and Christians who post here agree that Saturday sacredness per se is not a Biblical command for the Christian, although they do argue for the continuance of the law in the capacity of a guide to moral behavior.

Your arguments, dan, ultimately lead to confusion and to something Paul called “another gospel”. They do not withstand the test of inductive Biblical scrutiny.

Colleen


156. Boyfrienddan
February 14, 2006
2:21 AM

To Colleen

I don’t know why you would dismiss these thoughts as mere “doctrinal” heresy of a certain church, when these thoughts do still grow in parallel with Scripture. I am also still awaiting your thoughts on God’s eternal law, what it is, and the basis of such.

I’d like to point out an experience of mine regarding a typical churchgoer’s view of salvation. I have spoken to congregations and asked them, “Do you think you are saved?” and ask a raise of hand. Zero. And then I proceed to ask them why it is so. And the typical answer: they still don’t think they have worked hard for their salvation. Alas, it is a very sad thing.

So I proceed to tell them that Christ has already done what He promised to do: Save us from this sinful world through His death. Unless we tell ourselves that THAT death was for us, and that we accept it, we can never be saved. The better news about that is that He lived, the same way each of us can live through Him.

My point in telling you this is, yes, there is a certain reliance about being “holy” or a “saint” in order for one to convince oneself that one can be “saved.” And in this case, Christ’s sacrifice becomes void. So many times have those who struggled to go back to church tell themselves, “If only I was good enough.” The point we can share for people like this, is that “Jesus is enough,” for one to go back to God.

Going back to the topic at hand:

“The Bible does not mandate Saturday observance for Christians. Even the Reformed theologians and Christians who post here agree that Saturday sacredness per se is not a Biblical command for the Christian, although they do argue for the continuance of the law in the capacity of a guide to moral behavior.”

I would only assume that the Bible you’re talking about here would be the NT? One of the things that I noticed in the presentation of this view is the term “Jewish Sabbath,” and I end up asking, “What was wrong with the Jewish Sabbath anyway, in its pure, original term?” Was there only a Sabbath by the time the Jews existed? Was the Sabbath just so foully bad a setting for humankind that it had to be abolished? I can only ask, for now.

One of the things that alarms me the most is this - the fact that suddenly, we all take it as impossible in realizing God’s will through His law. If we do so, we demerit Christ’s integrity as well as He lived among us, and became human for us, masking His divinity so that he can bear the sorrows of this world just like us. The argument may go on as far as denouncing that Christ was only able to do what He did on Earth because He was God. That, I would say, cannot be Scripturally correct also. He was man to take on, even the law that is (or was, if you prefer to believe), when He was on Earth. However, through this victory, His is our mediatorship in Heaven. He did it, because time and again, we refuse to believe that God had the power through His Spirit to make His law abound in the life, not of the Jew, or the Christian, but for every human being.

“He can only know from moment to moment whether or not he is likely saved; he cannot know the future for sure. These are unbiblical teachings.” I do not think that the “future” and “salvation” has a direct link to each other in this effect. For one, salvation is sure, but the question is, for who? Second, the “future” will always become now, as we can easily put it. Knowledge of the future, however, becomes different in itself. Consider the parable of the ten virgins, and parallel to the one where Jesus says, “not all who say Lord, Lord, will enter the Kindom of Heaven.” The ten virgins had knowledge of the future, the coming of the bridegroom, but only five of them were equipped for that (the Holy Spirit). The surety of salvation lies in the fact that yes, the Bridegroom will come. What effect however, will this knowledge of the future have?

Regarding the great controversy not by Ellen White, I suggest you read Philip Yancey’s book, Disappointment with God. It may not be directly what you expect, but it does have the idea within it.

I’ve gone long enough for this, and I don’t think Jeff appreciates such a heavy and taxing text. Still, a great discussion.


157. Boyfrienddan
February 14, 2006
2:58 AM

To Jeff

Quite a challenge you posed there.

“What is your point? Does any of you even know what the point is?” So I paste from the way above blog: “Do I believe that the church would benefit from returning to honoring the Sabbath? I certainly do. But do I truly believe this is an obligation? That is where I am not quite so sure. I struggle with this issue and intend to keep reading about it, studying both perspectives.”

The struggle with the issue - is the Sabbath still there?

For me, under my Biblical convictions, yes, it still is. For one, I do not adhere to the fact that the Sabbath being mentioned in Exo 20:8 is a ceremonial thing. Why? Because I don’t see anything ceremonial about making sure we acknowledge God for His Creatorship. Did God need to rest? My answer: God chose to have another day after creating six, just to say that He rested, hallowed, and sanctified it. Why is it important for a Christian (or even a non-Christian) today? Because the true Sabbath itself, the one that Jesus even kept while here on Earth, still “remains” as a rest for His people. Why do people believe that there is no longer a Sabbath, or that it is purely ceremonial, or that it was changed to another day? My answer (and this, is purely MY answer), is because we just have too much of ourselves to care.

“Boyfrienddan, you are horrible for saying that last part.” I feel horrible for saying this last part. But that is somehow the truth. What is the essence of the Sabbath provision? “Let go.”

What does it mean when something is holy? It is set apart, special. A holy nation. A holy priesthood. Set apart. Very special indeed. Are we holy? If you say no, then what is Christianity for? If you say yes, then we are embracing salvation to its fullest. So how does it mean that the Sabbath is holy? Is it because it is special? Is it because it was set apart? You decide.

“Let go.” Will you be able to trust God enough to be a Christian by closing your business during the Sabbath? Would you? The Sabbath is burdensome, therefore, has to be abolished. It doesn’t become a practical thing anymore, these days. Uhuh. Is Christianity just being practical? Christ did not keep the Sabbath holy anyways. Did he not? “It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” It is also lawful to do good in any other day. He also said, “Love one another.”

“Let go.” There is just so much that we have to do, we don’t need to keep the Sabbath anymore and it is enough for us to know that Christ has saved us from sin and now we are free from the bondage of the law. Then again, “Rather, we uphold the law.”

“Let go.” I JUST DON’T THINK THE SABBATH IS FOR THE CHRISTIANS LIVING TODAY. “Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.” Jn 14:11

“Just let go.”


158. Colleen
February 14, 2006
3:03 PM

I don’t believe the purpose of this blog is to discuss Adventist theology. That being said, I’ll repeat what I previously wrote about God’s law: It is God Himself. All law—moral, physical, biological, etc.— resides in and comes from Him. We limit Him and His will if we limit our acceptance of His law to the 10 Commandments.

“Scripture contains no command for Christians to keep Saturday.” You asked if I meant the NT? Of course; the OT contains no commands addressed to Christians. They did not yet exist. Christianity could only come to be as a consequence of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and His gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell His believers.

Reading the Bible with prayer to understand it without the filter of any extra-Biblical authority yields a much different book than one “gets” when one reads it in light of a pre-determined doctrine in which one is invested.

I completely understand how the Bible looks to you, Dan—because I saw it the same way for many years. Only, however, when we turn to Christ and away from Moses is the veil removed (2 Cor. 3).

Extra-Biblical prophets and messengers have no place in a Christ-followers experience. No matter how we try to distance ourselves, we can’t escape their influence unless we consciously accept the Holy Spirit in place of our “messenger-shaped” understandings.

Jesus is enough.

Colleen


159. Melissa
February 14, 2006
3:25 PM

Boyfrienddan, are you trying to say it is more “burdensome” to close a business on Saturday than on Sunday? I don’t understand why sabbitarians think it is more “convenient” to “rest” on Sunday than on Saturday. A day away is a day away. But I want to question your position that you see nothing that says the sabbath was ceremonial.

Scripture clearly explains, if allowed:

Lev 23:1 And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Lev 23:2 Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them, The appointed feasts of Jehovah which you shall proclaim, holy gatherings, shall be these: These are My appointed seasons: Lev 23:3 Work is to be done six days, and in the seventh day shall be a sabbath of rest, a holy gathering; you shall do no work; it is a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings. Lev 23:4 These are appointed seasons of Jehovah, holy gatherings which you shall proclaim in their appointed seasons: Lev 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings is the Passover to Jehovah.

The same preface used to announce the passover (vs 4) is the exact same one to describe the 7th day sabbath (vs 2). And what do those verses tell us? These are appointed “seasons”, feast days. I’m sure you don’t keep passover because you see it as ceremonial, but it is no different for the 7th day sabbath. Do you know of any scripture that says the 7th day sabbath is a moral obligation other than the assumption it is so because it is in the 10 commandments? And to really split hairs, where does the 4th commandment “command” worship? Even in this passage the rest is to be “in your dwellings”. It was a rest day, but every sabbitarian I know says it was also expected that one attend worship services…but where does the commandment SAY that? Truth be told, no one “keeps” the sabbath in the carnal form, not even sabbitarians. Someone above, probably Jeremy, detailed the obligations for the sabbath according to the Bible. I doubt many here turn off their gas furnaces or water heaters or stay in their dwellings for 24 hours.

Hebrews 4 has come up as requiring the sabbath, but again, one needs to carefully look at what the text actually says.

Heb 4:2 For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the Word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard. Heb 4:3 For we, the ones believing, enter into the rest, even as He said, “As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter into My rest,” though the works had come into being from the foundation of the world. Heb 4:4 For He has spoken somewhere about the seventh day this way, “And God rested from all His works in the seventh day.” Heb 4:5 And in this again, “They shall not enter into My rest.” Heb 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter into it, and those who formerly had the gospel preached did not enter in on account of disobedience, Heb 4:7 He again marks out a certain day, saying in David, Today (after so long a time, according as He has said), “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” Heb 4:8 For if Joshua gave them rest, then He would not have afterwards spoken about another day. Heb 4:9 So, then, there remains a sabbath rest to the people of God. Heb 4:10 For he entering into His rest, he himself also rested from his works, as God had rested from His own. Heb 4:11 Therefore, let us exert ourselves to enter into that rest, that not anyone fall in the same example of disobedience.


All those sabbathkeepers of old did not enter rest because of disobedience. And what was the disobedience? Lack of faith, right? But is there still a “right” day to enter God’s rest?? Vs. 7 says he again speaks of another day and he calls it “today”, not the 7th day. If the 7th day had been able to provide them rest, he wouldn’t have had to speak of another day …that’s what verse 8 says. TRUE rest was not in a day. What remains is “rest” and it is available any day … vs 9. Hebrews 4 moves from the concept of a single day for rest (the shadow) to a rest available in Christ any day (the reality). Hebrews NOwhere re-affirms 7th day observation. It only affirms another day, called “today” to enter God’s true rest through faith in Christ.

The scripture is clear that God does not change…and his purposes does not change…and it is impossible for God to lie. No where does it say he cannot change his creation. The sabbath was “made…”. It is not God. To try to say it cannot change, is to say it is God. That makes it an idol.

To comment on something someone else said about the 10 commandments being God’s nature…. God is not the “minister of death”. God is the author of life. The law written on stone is called “a ministration of death”.

2Co 3:4 And we have such confidence through Christ toward God; 2Co 3:5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to reason out anything as being out of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God, 2Co 3:6 who also made us able ministers of a new covenant, not of letter, but of Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive. 2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into “the face of Moses” because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, 2Co 3:8 how much rather the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory! 2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation was glory, much rather the ministry of righteousness abounds in glory. 2Co 3:10 For even that which has been made glorious has not been made glorious in this respect, because of the surpassing glory. 2Co 3:11 For if the thing done away was through glory, much rather the thing remaining is in glory. 2Co 3:12 Then having such hope, we use much boldness. 2Co 3:13 And not as “Moses, who put a veil over his face,” for the sons of Israel not to gaze at the end of the thing being done away. 2Co 3:14 But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ. 2Co 3:15 But until today, when Moses is being read, a veil lies on their heart. 2Co 3:16 But whenever it turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Verse 7 tells us the ministry of death was engraved on stones. What else do we know from scripture was engraved on stones? The 10 commandments, yes with God’s own finger. The above passage tells us it’s glory is fading and from the old covenant. We are now ministers of a new covenant through Christ. I don’t know any plainer language.

There is a passage that talks about what defiles a man (Matt 15). I don’t have it in front of me, but Jesus has been challenged because of the lack of ritual washings. He makes the statement that it’s not what goes into the man that makes him unclean, but what comes out because that reveals the condition of his heart. You could say that principlly the same thing is true in regards to a persons actions. It is not the bad behavior that makes us unclean/lawbreakers, it is the wickedness in our heart that conceived the bad thought that caused the bad action that makes us sinners. I can not kill or not steal and still have a heart of anger and envy or greed. I can go to church on Saturday and just like those of Joshua’s day (Hebrew 4), still not enter God’s rest. Those thinking “some” of us are advocating we are now free to kill should remember that we are guided by Christ now, who told us not to be angry, not to lust, etc. He deals with our hearts, which controls behavior, not merely with our self-control which has little impact on our heart.

As Colleen mentioned, I too am aware this is not a discussion about Adventism. However, the issue of the sabbath is the primary recruiting tool, and it is out of concern that people might get pulled into that culture and all that means that you hear such passionate discussion. Appreciate the warning (I wish I’d had it 6 plus years ago). Don’t be fooled. The sabbath as it appears on the surface is the least objectionable of their heretical doctrines. The SDAs mission is to convert non-SDAs to “the sabbath truth”. And anyone with a non-SDA understanding of the sabbath is their target…no matter what they might say up front. If you reject the sabbath, you reject salvation, according to their views. Just be aware of such false gospels.

Sorry for the length.


160. Andrew
February 14, 2006
4:43 PM

Considering that some have already bowed out of this discussion, this may be my last post on the subject. Plus, I go away for 2 days and come back with 100 more messages to keep up with, I just don’t have the time ;-).

Some things, however have caught my eye. It seems for Chad and Colleen, the decalogue/10 words/10 commandments have absolutely nothing to do with God’s moral law. Though there is fulfillment and expansion in Christ which is the focus of Redemptive History, recall that Moses did not invent the decalogue, it was given by God. Not that the 10 commandments are themselves God’s moral law, but they are a summary of it, and the Westminster Larger and Shorter catechisms do a wonderful job expounding this.

Chad commented on how he could not understand how the Sabbath could change from Saturday to Sunday if it is part of God’s unchanging law. I think the obvious answer here is Christ. The law in its civil, ceremonial, and moral aspects pointed to fulfillment in Christ. So then the Sabbath itself did not change, but rather the observance of it in light of Christ. The principle to worship God while resting from earthly labors one day in seven still remained, however the Sabbath rest was grounded in the resurrection celebration of the ascended Christ.

Now on the changing of the day of observance from the last day of the week to the first, the testimony of the New Testament early church is sufficient. Christ rose on the first day (John 20:1) and Christ revealed himself to his disciplies (John 20:19). Believers then began to meet together on the first day of the week instead of the last (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:1-2;

It is this day that became known as the “Lord’s Day” (Rev 1:10). It is made for man (Mark 2:27-28) and Christ is the Lord over it. For this reason it is important to avoid the tendency to make lists of “do’s” and “don’ts”. The focus is to be on rest and worship, in attending to the means of grace together as one body.

To be able to call the Sabbath your delight (Isa 58:13). I do prefer to refer to Sunday as the Lord’s Day, or as the WCF refers to it “the Christian Sabbath.” This makes a helpful distinction that it is different than the OT Sabbath in its observance, though the heart of the command still applies.

That may be it for me, for now. I’m doing my best to not rob my church and family of their time.

Peace, Andrew.


161. Johnny C
February 14, 2006
11:45 PM

Nowhere in all of this did I hear made mention of the Sabbath as being a memorial to His creation.


162. Colleen
February 15, 2006
2:25 AM

That’s because, Johnny, the Bible doesn’t say it’s a memorial of creation. The Bible points out that the Sabbath pointed back to God’s REST at the end of creation. Sabbath never represented “work”—God’s or humans’. It represented God ceasing from His work.

Exodus 20 says God made heaven and earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. THEREFORE (as a consequence of his resting) He blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. It was about His ceasing, finishing His work—not about his working.

What Jesus did at the end of creation and at the cross had similar effects in the lives of humans. Both “ceasings” ushered mankind into the presence of God with no work or contribution on their part. Jesus provided the means of our being one with Him.

Colleen


163. Johnny C
February 15, 2006
4:29 PM

Hi, Colleen,
You’re so right! However, when He blesses something is it not blessed forever? He could reverse it but certainly no man can. I concede the memorial thing may have been a little subtle indoctrination. Yet, if it is not a memorial, what would you call it?


164. Boyfrienddan
February 15, 2006
7:23 PM

Johnny C, I’d call it a big waste of time. God would have created something else on the seventh day.

I however, disagree with Colleen’s point that the BIBLE (which includes the OT, not just the NT) does not say anything about the Sabbath being a memorial, grammar-wise. The point of a memorial has something to do with remembrance. In effect - Exo 20:8-11 still maintains “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” Keep it in memory.

Another thing with one of the points she raises on another post: “Scripture contains no command for Christians to keep Saturday.” You asked if I meant the NT? Of course; the OT contains no commands addressed to Christians. They did not yet exist. Christianity could only come to be as a consequence of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and His gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell His believers.” The OT does not contain commands addressed to Christians? How about: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.” Prov 3:5,6. I don’t see why Christians cannot apply that when that is a core of Christian faith? Or how about the New Covenant message? Jeremiah? Shall we be selective in this sense then?

The Sabbath, I suppose, is not JUST a law. It is a reality. Just as God is real in His Creatorship. Just as Jesus Christ was real in His death, resurrection, and redemption. They are not equal (never assume that one can equate God with the Sabbath), but they are real.


165. Johnny C
February 15, 2006
9:20 PM

Were not the sacrificial laws Christian laws? Is that not how Abel lost his life? If he was’nt a follower of Christ, what would you call him?


166. The Greatest Man Alive
February 16, 2006
12:33 AM

I stopped reading closely around post 100 and skimmed the rest to see if there was a truly detailed treatment of the Galatians issue, which I don’t believe there is.

Before I start, allow me to compliment everyone here as this has been the most rewarding, fruitful, and genuinely God-centered discussion on this site in a while. It has been refreshing and heartwarming to see believers honestly and humbly wrestling together with God’s Word and its implications for our lives. (Now for my long-winded spiel).

I’m currently teaching through the book for a young adult group in a PCA church. I’ve been using commentaries from Calvin, Luther, Bruce, Longenecker and Morris as well as my own mediocre (yet improving) Greek skills. One agreement amongst all commentators is that Paul switches argumentative styles multiple times in Galatians. The general agreement is that he initially uses the extreme of the law being re-introduced as a means of justification so that the real issue, daily living by the law (nomism), can be dealt with in the latter two chapters. Paul isn’t saying that the Judaizers in that situation are actually trying to add the law as a means of justification, but are trying to introduce it as the rule of practical Christian living in response to their observation of the libertine behavior of the Galatian believers.

I believe the key understanding for Galatians, especially the Mosaic Law, comes in Galatians 3:19-25.

Here’s a verse by verse breakdown that I hope helps everyone involved:

v.19 —First, the law was added. That must carry an aspect of subordinate/supplementary with it. It is in the aorist passive meaning that it was brought into effect after the covenant promise was given.
—Second, the reason was transgressions. A cursory look at Romans will help us to understand that the reason is cognitive i.e. making us aware of transgressions.
—Third, the word translated “promise” is in the perfect tense. In this grammatical construct it allows us to see that the past promise now has present results. There is no way, in light of all of Scripture and the thrust of Galatians specifically, to see this as anything other than grace as a result of Christ’s resurrection.

v.20—Maybe the hardest to deal with here. The only agreement I could find is the idea that God’s dealing is now directly with us and not through an intermediary such as the law was.

v.21—The first major key to understanding the relationship. While the law is no longer sufficient for salvation, and we will see later is clearly intended as only temporary, it is NOT contrary to the promises of God. Even if the purpose of Galatians is to show that the law is no longer our rule of thumb for living, and I believe that to be the case, that does not make it contrary to the realized promises of God.

v.22—This verse is in reference Galatians 3:10 which is citing Deuteronomy 27:26. The purpose of the law was to imprison us so that faith in Christ could free us. The law could not free us totally, only temporarily, so why would we return to it when our freedom has been delivered to us?

v.23—While v.22 focuses on the relation of the law as being condemning, v.23 shifts to the laws supervisory role. This is extremely important to understand as we move to the next few verses.

v.24—Here is the key word to understand. Most translations will say the law was a GUARDIAN. The word for guardian is pedagaigos (pedagogue) which eventually came into use for a teacher, but at the time of Paul’s writing was only used for a slave in a patrician household whose role was custodial/disciplinary and most importantly, temporary.
Plato described the role this way: “…not those good for nothing else, but men who by age and experience are qualified to serve as both leaders and custodians of children.”
It was only until Christ came. It was there only to caretake until the coming of Christ to offer the justification that the law couldn’t.

v.25—This strikes at the heart of the Judaizers teaching and is the basis for all that is in 5:1-6:18. The law no longer has a purpose to meet.

Ultimately, the law was insufficient. What we have, faith in Christ, goes much deeper and fulfills all from everyday life to our eternal outcome. In chapter 4, Paul refers to both the Jewish law and the Gentile false beliefs with the term elementary principles and says that returning to either one is denying the freedom of Christ in favor of inadequate slavery.

My reason for not murdering those who offend/attack me is not “thou shalt not murder.” The Holy Spirit who inspired that standard also inspired the Matt 5:21-22 teaching that anger and insults are deserving of the same punishment. My reasoning for not murdering is having the mind of Christ, having been saved by faith, and knowing that because of that I no longer need the command to not murder because it should be completely against everything that I am. In that same vein, I no longer need the command to set aside one day to rest in the Lord as I now am indwelt by His spirit and now should have the natural outcome be resting in Him constantly.

As for those who mentioned physical rest, I do understand where you are coming from. When I was in Hawaii, I was a youth leader as well as teacher in the Christian school there and multiple sport coach. Needless to say, for anyone who has done any of those jobs, combining them can be incredibly taxing. With the way the schedule worked out, I had a very simple pattern I tried to use. Saturday was the only day where I could really get away and “rest.” Everyone knew that to contact me on that day, without emergency reasons, would make me quite the unhappy camper. Now, I have a full day Sunday with my church (start around 8am and finish around 7pm usually), but I am finishing my degree online and can basically schedule the rest of my week however I see fit. I no longer take a specific day due to the extreme flexibility I have most of the time. I have occasionally taken a full day here or there, but it’s due to unusually busy times and not due to observing something that is less than what we currently have been given by God.

For those who disagree with this assessment, I simply ask for grace in doing so. Even within my own congregation our assistant pastor gave a message on the Sabbath just a few weeks ago in which he took the Sabbatarian view. While he and I are in complete disagreement on this issue, we fellowship together without problem and I can say God has used him to build me up as much as any other elder we have.


167. Johnny C
February 16, 2006
1:37 AM

All of you, read the last chapter of the bible carefully no matter how many times you’ve done it before.


168. The Greatest Man Alive
February 16, 2006
2:31 AM

I just wanted to add this to the discussion. In regards to Galatians 4:10 (days, months, times and years) John Calvin had this to say:

When certain days are represented as holy in themselves, when one day is distinguished from another on religious grounds, when holy days are reckoned a part of divine worship, then days are improperly observed. The Jewish Sabbath, new moons, and other festivals, were earnestly pressed by the false apostles, because they had been appointed by the law. When we, in the present age, intake a distinction of days, we do not represent them as necessary, and thus lay a snare for the conscience; we do not reckon one day to be more holy than another; we do not make days to be the same thing with religion and the worship of God; but merely attend to the preservation of order and harmony. The observance of days is a free service, and void of all superstition.

AMEN!


169. bill
February 16, 2006
1:57 PM

‘man alive’,

I would realy recommend reading on from posts 100 through. There was some really good discussion in those posts.


170. Andrew
February 16, 2006
2:29 PM

GreatestmanAlive,

Greetings,
I appreciate the Calvin quote. However, this is to be balanced with the perspective that he believed church attendance on Sunday was not optional for the believer, even to the point of wanting the civil magistrate to enforce it.

Given that you are in the PCA, have you interacted with the Westminster Confession on the matter?

Peace,
Andrew


171. The Greatest Man Alive
February 16, 2006
4:01 PM

I have dealt with the Confession on that matter, and it is one reason why I teach under the supervision of an elder instead of possibly being an elder. The Confession is not without flaw and is not within the God-breathed canon of Scripture and thusly must be viewed in light of Scripture. I would say I agree with it on 99.9% of things and that is enough for me.

In regards to Calvin, lets once again look at WHY he held the Sunday meeting important. It was not in regards to keeping the Law/Sabbath, but out of maintaining order and harmony. While he may have gone overboard on enforcing Sunday worship, he did so out of a correct understanding of what Sunday is for the church. The biggest aspect of this issue is the motive/reason for Sunday worship which biblically cannot be as a result of observing the Sabbath.


172. Boyfrienddan
February 16, 2006
6:47 PM

To TGMA,

“In regards to Calvin, lets once again look at WHY he held the Sunday meeting important. It was not in regards to keeping the Law/Sabbath, but out of maintaining order and harmony.”

If Calvin would have thought about this, and reasoned it as so, wouldn’t have God meant the same thing when He gave the Sabbath command?


173. Johnny C
February 16, 2006
7:52 PM

I guess we all just have to live awhile to come to the understanding of the importance of the Sabbath. I know I did and I was raised in the faith. It’s not arguable. It just is.


174. Boyfrienddan
February 16, 2006
9:20 PM

My thoughts exactly Johnny C. I have figured faith was like that too - it’s not arguable. It just is. That’s a great thought.


175. Colleen
February 16, 2006
11:01 PM

Man Alive, very interesting exegesis on Galatians. Further, I do admire your courage in saying you have slight problems with the Westminster Confession and that it is not canonical. It is often politically and personally risky to disagree openly with church authority or tradition, whether it’s “apostolic” or a creed or a modern-day messenger. These things shape us deeply from our mother’s milk, so to speak.

Just one possibility on verse 3:20: the reference to a “mediator” is an outgrowth of verse 19 where it says the law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. I understand this to mean Moses was the mediator. The emphasis here is that the covenant was between God and Israel, and Moses mediated the agreement by delivering the covenant terms from God Himself.

In verse 20, the focus returns to the New Covenant and uses the idea of “mediator” as a transition. Whereas a mediator was necessary to facilitate the agreement between God and Israel, no mediator is necessary to facilitate the covenant between the Father and the Son as our Substitute. The One God in the Persons of the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit, too) are/is the Party in the New Covenant. No mediator is necessary—because God keeps the covenant in Himself. He is faithful to His promises—and He is One.

The fact that there is no mediator in the New Covenant which was established on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection instead of on the basis of the law speaks to the fact that it is a better covenant because it is complete in God Himself. (See Hebrews 7:12; 18-22; 8:6-7.)

Johnny C, I’m not sure I understand your point about the last chapter of the Bible. I do see there that there will be no need for sun or moon because Jesus Himself is the light, and there will be no night. This reality means that there will be no days—there will be no “seventh day” in the new earth. Jesus Himself, however, will be our object of continuous worship and “observance” for eternity.

He is so much greater that I had once understood. He is literally our all-in-all. Praise Him!

Colleen


176. Johnny C
February 17, 2006
9:34 AM

You present quite a challenge, Colleen. I like to think of Jesus as my attorney. I don’t see him sitting on a throne next to God being entertained by the heavenly hosts. I see Him pleading my case before the Father in a sanctuary much like the one the children of Israel carried around with them in the wilderness enroute to the promised land. When He leaves the Most Holy place, then, and only then, will His work of intercession be completed. At that time God’s Spirit will be withdrawn from the world and we will have only our faith in Jesus on which to rely. Much like Noah and his family after the door of the ark was closed.
I think “no night there” refers to the Holy City where God dwells. The world was designed with a perfect blueprint creating a balance between night and day. Nature at night is a glorious as by day in a perfect world. I suspect the other worlds were created after a similar fashion. Will the light from His throne encompass all of “planet Heaven”? Who knows? Do the angels sleep? Will we have need of sleep? I imagine so as rest has been the central theme of this discussion.
So what “commandments” is John referring to in verse 14?


177. Jeremy
February 18, 2006
2:12 PM

Johnny C,

The most reliable manuscripts do not say “commandments” in Rev. 22:14. In fact, the KJV is one of very few translations which contains the word “commandments” in that verse. Here is how the NASB translates it: “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.”

What “commandments” is John referring to in the rest of the book of Revelation, where it does use that phrase? John tells us what he means when he talks about the “commandments”:

“and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” (1 John 3:22-24 NASB.)

Your other comments promoting heretical SDA doctrine are off-topic, but I’ll address them quickly.

If Jesus ceases His intercession for us, we’ll have only our faith in Jesus to rely on? Actually, your false prophetess teaches in her book the Great Controversy that we’ll have to rely on our own perfection and sinlessness since there will be no more intercession for us. But the BIBLE says, “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He ALWAYS lives to make intercession for them.” (Hebrews 7:25 NASB.)

And the Holy Spirit will NEVER be withdrawn from those of us whose spirits have been raise to eternal life (born again) and have been eternally connected to the Holy Spirit, since we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30)!!!

Regarding there being NO NIGHT, here is what the Bible says:

“they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.” (Revelation 22:4-5 NASB.)

Notice that it is not just talking about where God dwells, it is talking about US!

There will be NO night—without night, you cannot have a start or end to a Sabbath day!

About the Sabbath being a memorial of Creation—the point was that it cannot be called a memorial of CREATION. As Colleen said, it pointed back to God’s REST in Genesis. And it pointed back to Israel’s deliverance from Egypt (which is why the Lord commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath—Deut. 5), and it was also a shadow pointing forward to Christ, who is the Reality. No, the Sabbath day was NOT a reality—only a shadow. Heb. 4 says that the Sabbath rest which remains for the people of God is NOT keeping the seventh day but is entering God’s Rest and resting TODAY and everyday in Jesus Christ and His finished work for us on the Cross.

BTW, the word “Remember” does not make the Sabbath a “memorial”—it was only a command to remember to keep the Sabbath day holy, as a sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel (Ex. 31).

Jeremy


178. Jeremy
February 18, 2006
2:22 PM

”[…] and it was also a shadow pointing forward to Christ, who is the Reality. No, the Sabbath day was NOT a reality—only a shadow.”

I forgot to give the reference for that: Colossians 2:6-17.

JESUS CHRIST alone is the Reality. The Law only had a shadow of the good things to come, in Christ (Heb. 10:1).

Jeremy


179. Jeremy
February 18, 2006
2:23 PM

Oops—that should say Colossians 2:16-17!


180. Linda
February 18, 2006
8:21 PM

Well, as I see it all boils down to: If the Sabbatarians are right, the non Sabbatarians lose. If the non Sabbatatians are right we both win. Something to think about.


181. Johnny C
February 18, 2006
11:33 PM

Well, that’s only part of it Linda. Keeping the Sabbath only will not get me a free ticket to heaven. We must have His testimony embedded in our hearts and souls.


182. Johnny C
February 19, 2006
12:38 AM

Jeremy,
When the ark of the covenant is brought out of it’s place of hiding will you still sing the same song? It is so marvelous to discover how God’s plan comes together.
Colleen, why would I think that God made this world any different from any other? I don’t think He had to experiment with different plans. What cause is there for me to believe they do not celebrate the Sabbath the same as you once did?


183. Linda
February 19, 2006
3:30 PM

True, JohnnyC, I did not mean to imply that keeping the Sabbath was a ticket to heaven. But blatent rebellion against the law of God is not a ticket in either.


184. Chad
February 19, 2006
5:23 PM

I have been following this thread since I left earlier in post 147.

One question I have for JohnnyC is this, can you explain to me the meaning of the following passage and demonstrate how it fits into your theology:

Jeremiah 3:16-17
And when you have multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, declares the Lord, they shall no more say, “The ark of the covenant of the Lord.” It shall not come to mind or be remembered or missed; it shall not be made again. At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the Lord, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the Lord in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart.”

this is clearly a passage relating to the New Covenant. I am not sure how you would deal with this passage because of your comments above such as:

“When the ark of the covenant is brought out of it’s place of hiding will you still sing the same song? It is so marvelous to discover how God’s plan comes together. “

Looking forward to your answer.

CT


185. Johnny C
February 19, 2006
8:00 PM

What I am saying, Chad, is that the Lord has preserved such artifacts for His glorification to be revealed at a later date. Personally I believe it has already been found. It’s only a matter of politics as to when it will be brought out and revealed to the world.
I think the essence of your question relates to the completion of HIs work. In the earth made new there will be no more sanctuary.


186. Chad
February 20, 2006
12:14 AM

JohnnyC,

I will ask you again in different language.

If we are presently operating in the NC, which was spoken of here in this passage of Jeremiah, and if indeed we find ourselves operating within its sphere, then how is it that you can justify such statements about the finding of the ark. The point is that what God does in the new covenant, in the day of salvation, in teh gospel age, is of such a magnitude that no longer will people be thinking anything about the ark of the old covenant. It wil not come to mind, or be remembered, or be missed.

This, in fact, is exactly what the author to the Hebrews has said so plainly.

You identify the return of the ark of the old covenant with the full revelation ofthe glory of God. Yet this passage clearly identifies the full reception of the glory of God (all the nations shall gather to the presence of the Lord) with the statement that that old ark of the old covenant will no longer be brought to mind or be remembered. Nor would we expect to find a new one, as it also says it will not be made.

It seems to me that anyone looking to find these artifacts is in effect offending the Lord Jesus Christ who according to the NC promises in Ezekiel, is jealous to remove all the idols from the hearts of his people, and to alone be the reciever of all their religious devotion and thought.

Also, the text mentions nothing ofthe sanctuary, which we also know there will not be, but rather it specifically mentions the ark.

So I ask again, how can you justify this position?

CT


187. Johnny C
February 20, 2006
1:26 PM

Chad,
This text is placed in the midst of a call to repentance. I agree that in the new earth the memory of the ark of the covenant will be blotted out. There will be no more use for it as the Lord will have brought a complete end to sin. Jesus entered into His ministry in the midst of a call to repentance. He completed His mission on a Friday and rested, even in death, over the sabbath. When Jerusalem fell Jeremiah saw to it the ark of the covenant would not fall into the hands of the Babylonians by placing it in hiding during the final seige. As long as the land lay desolate it enjoyed her sabbaths because it did not rest in their sabbaths when they dwelled upon it.
“To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jermiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.”
I used the word, “sanctuary”, because that is where the ark dwelt.
The people did not worship the ark. They worshiped God. The Mercy Seat is where He dwelled among them.
I’ve been a student of the bible for forty years, Chad. I did not know that reference to the ark existed. Thank you for bringing it my attention. Colleen and Jeremy are going to love that admission.


188. JohnnyC
February 20, 2006
2:06 PM

JohnnyC,
I understand that the people did not worship the ark. And I understand that you are not worshipping the ark. But what I am saying is that in the new covenant, not just the new heavens and earth, the Lord Jesus Christ dwells with his people in such a way that there is no concern whatsoever for the old ark of the old covenant, which itself was just a symbolic part of a lesser covenant.

I think you are missing my point rather widely.

CT


189. Johnny C
February 20, 2006
3:42 PM

Our Lords’ last commission to the apostles was to go and teach all the world to observe all things He had commanded them. The new covenant of which you speak will come. I do not understand it to be ushered in, however, until Jesus is finished in the temple that the Lord pitched and He once again utters those famous three words, “It is finished”. He returned to heaven to continue His work. He sent the Comforter to dwell with us in the meantime.


190. Jeremy
February 21, 2006
1:50 PM

EVERYONE reading this blog:

If you do not believe that Seventh-day Adventism is a non-Christian cult, please just look at what Johnny C has been saying—he is a Seventh-day Adventist and he is describing what traditional Adventism and it’s false prophet Ellen G. White teach.

Johnny C,

If Jesus had to continue His work (and make atonement starting October 22, 1844 since the Cross wasn’t good enough, according to Adventism, and the atonement is completed with Satan bearing our sins as the scapegoat) and say, “It is finished” again—what on earth did He say “It is finished” for the first time?!! Those words meant nothing?! You are blaspheming Jesus Christ and His Cross.

The New Covenant has already been “ushered in” by Jesus’ own precious blood 2,000 years ago!

“And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, ‘This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.’” (Luke 22:20 NASB.)

The New Covenant is certainly in effect right now!

“Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but )our adequacy is from God,
6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant,” (2 Corinthians 3:5-6a NASB.)

Johnny C wrote:

“Well, that’s only part of it Linda. Keeping the Sabbath only will not get me a free ticket to heaven. We must have His testimony embedded in our hearts and souls.”

In other words, Sabbath-keeping plus Ellen G. White (whose writings ARE “the testimony of Jesus” according to SDAism) equals salvation.

Hmm…something seems to be missing.

Like maybe Jesus Christ, and His life, death, and resurrection! ! ! ! Grace is missing from that equation. Faith is missing. JESUS is missing!

But I guess you’re saying that we’re saved by Ellen G. White through Sabbath-keeping, rather than by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jeremy


191. Johnny C
February 21, 2006
6:47 PM

Hello, Jeremy,
This discussion is not about religion, it is about the sabbath. I am not a member of any denomination. I have not attended a church service in twenty years except for an occasional wedding or funeral. I am not a seventh day adventist. I am not ashamed to be accused of being one, however. I have read many writings by the author of whom you speak. I was especially impressed by her description of the fall of the twin towers written in 1906. God does have one true church but not of brick and mortar. It is in your heart and mine, my brother. I have no preconceived notions about sabbath keeping. I just do it. Sounds like I have touched a nerve and that you got more indoctrination than I ever did. If you care to get more personal please e-mail me. Now, for the purpose of this thread, I will go back to the bible. You have hurled many accusations in my direction and I will address them as you have presented an even greater challenge than Colleen. But not now as I will have much to say and I despise very long posts. God bless you and all your former adventist friends.


192. Johnny C
February 21, 2006
10:48 PM

“If I have told you earthly things, and ye believed them not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens: A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man…” “But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”
“For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us…”
These are all quotes from the New Testament. I do not wish to bore many readers here with too much scripture. You are encouraged to read and study for yourselves. The problem with our society today is too many people have been spoon fed scripture until they have become fed up. We must search these truths out for ourselves.
Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. He is in the heavenly sanctuary intercessing for us before the Father, who is on the throne. The Comforter is with us today. He is in our hearts, in our souls, and in our minds. He is that “still small voice” that speaks to us wheather we are doing good or evil. These are the three seperate entities of the Godhead; the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. When Jesus returned to heaven to commence with His work of intercession, He sent the Comforter in His place to be with us. Jesus is not with us today. The Comforter is. The Comforter did not die for us. Jesus did. The plan of salvation did not end at the cross. I cannot take my sabbath rest in Jesus and ignore the sabbath day until the new covenant takes effect. I state that last sentence only for the sake of argument, so to speak. I believe God’s law is now and forever and that the sabbath will be observed in the new earth.


193. Colleen
February 23, 2006
2:28 AM

Johnny, the problem as I see it is that you are INTERPRETING Scripture instead of OBSERVING it and asking yourself, rigorously, what it meant to those who first received it. Only after you answer that question can you ask the next question: in what other contexts does the writer use the word(s) in question?

Then, in what contexts does the subject or word occur in the rest of the testament? In the other testament? Only after meticulously studying a subject IN CONTEXT can one then ask what the subject means to himself—and the meaning cannot be greatly different from its original meaning.

When the Bible says there will be no night there—it is subjective interpretation to say that the passage refers “only to the New Jerusalem” and not to the rest of the world. That meaning is never suggested in the passages in Revelation, nor is it suggested in the passage in Jeremiah quoted above by Chad.

Reading Scripture has some things in common with analyzing literature: one cannot deduce conclusions which the text will not support. The fact that you can construct an argument to support your idea does not make it so. The text itself must support your conclusions. Anything else is faulty and is a misuse of the text.

The Bible does NOT say there are other worlds which have days and nights. You cannot conclude that based on the Bible. Your own reasoning is not adequate to make that case.

Now, I realize that you do not consider yourself Adventist—although I’m quite sure you have Adventism in your background—but Ellen White does refer to other inhabited planets. She even says she saw Enoch on Jupiter in one of her visions. Sorry, Johnny, but I do see your arguments taking on the shape of the subliminal influence of Ellen White. I know how long it took me to figure out how many of my cosmic assumptions were not based in logic or reality or Scripture but were the result of my early training based on Elllen’s revelations.

You really must stick with what the Bible says—speculation is not appropriate for establishing doctrine or belief.

Colleen


194. Jo Anne
February 23, 2006
8:59 AM

It’s interesting that this discussion has come to my attention now…because we are studying it in my Precepts classes; both in the Sermon on the Mount series and now Exodus. When I was a child, my ‘Christian’ uncles “observed” the Sabbath and what a miserable appearing lot they were, as were their children as they sat and sat and sat around doing nothing.

I will skip all of that and come to where I am today. God did all of His creative work for six “days” and when it was completed, He “rested” because His work of Creation was done. The Israelites worked and toiled and even gathered manna for six days and on the sixth day, gathered extra for the Sabbath day. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for blasting Him for doing good on the Sabbath and somewhere said that the Sabbath was made for Man not the other way around.

God seems to have intended that seventh day to be for our benefit, to take time to enjoy Him and rest from the weeks’ responsibilities. Even though I know Sunday isn’t the Sabbath, I have begun to think of it as “my” day to cease from the responsibilities, duties, obligations of the previous days and receive it as a day of refreshment….ie, rest. It’s a day to be enjoyed. I do more reading, studying of God’s Word, taking time for friends, just “resting” my body and my brain from the demands of the week.

I haven’t ‘arrived’ at a deep spiritual understanding of the teaching of the Sabbath Day, but I think I’m on the right track of what God originally intended it to be.


195. The Greatest Man Alive
February 23, 2006
11:10 AM

When the Bible says there will be no night there—it is subjective interpretation to say that the passage refers “only to the New Jerusalem” and not to the rest of the world. That meaning is never suggested in the passages in Revelation, nor is it suggested in the passage in Jeremiah quoted above by Chad.

One needs only to study the New Jerusalem, or Jerusalem above, to see that it isn’t a place. Every time the concept comes up prior to Revelation the indication is a people. In Galatians 4:26 we get another look at what Jerusalem above is in the greater context of the allegory of 4:21-31 and it is clear that it is the people of the promise, i.e. the church. To try and limit the New Jerusalem to a location is to miss the whole point. If there is no day or night as Revelation says, it is in reference to the church in eternity.


196. Johnny C
February 23, 2006
12:42 PM

Hello, Colleen,
Can you say, “hubble”? Go to astronomy picture of the day and get lost in their archives. I’m not telling you to “get lost”. Please do’nt misinterpret that. I especially like Tuesday’s picture of the horsehead in Orion. That is my idea of where heaven is. There is nothing biblical on which to base that. Job comes the closest when he speaks of God holding back the face of His throne by spreading His cloud upon it. He knew we would one day develop the technology to look into the very gates of heaven itself. The fastest space rocket in history is speeding toward Pluto as we speak. It passed the moon in nine hours.
I am not convinced any of us are saved based on doctrine or simply beliving. We are saved through the grace of Jesus and our faith in that promise.
Melissa, of course it’s easier to shut down on Sunday instead of on Saturday. All of Christiandom does it with the exception of our adventist friends and other true sabbath keepers. Ever try to get a chick-fil-a on a Sunday? Saturday is the busiest business day of the week for most in the service industry, where I have made my living the past 18 years, especially in a tourist area. My co-workers have never been able to figure why I can pass up all that good Saturday money because that’s the day everybody comes to town. They know I don’t go to church but they also understand that I respect the sabbath for what it is. There are many weeks I could double my money for the week by working a Friday night and Saturday double shift. Yet, the Lord has belssed me to the point where I can now be off the entire winter season.
Of course, for many in Christiandom, the moment chruch lets out it is business as usual. Yes, Melissa, it’s just plain more convenient to take Sunday rest because everybody else is doing it. It is more socially acceptable. Jo Anne, if you read between the lines, has just testified to it.


197. melissa
February 23, 2006
1:47 PM

I highly suspect the analysis of “everyone else is doing it”, JohnnyC. Our church was asked to add Saturday evening services so people could do something else on Sunday morning. My mother used to work real estate (30 years), and I can promise you, she could not get a Sunday off. In this day and age, retailers are expected to be open Sunday just like Saturday. I work in a field that requires on-call work, and I’m on call on Sunday just like Saturday. Statistics just don’t support the great “rest” happening on Sundays. If anything, stats say church attendance at any service has significantly declined, and I suspect more people are recovering from their hang-overs Sunday morning than sitting in a church pew. Even my pastor has to make arrangements to get his kid to his sporting events that happen on Sunday mornings…so I don’t know where this great rest is happening. Fortunately, I don’t find rest in a day or shadow, but in the reality of Christ.

Someone said something about the 10 commandments being from God and his moral law, but the problem is that the moral aspects of the law do not begin and end with the 10. Neither do I find any scripture stating “these are the moral laws, those are ceremonial, these are more valid than those.” There are moral components all thoughout the law, and those have been repeated in the new testament. To raise another “hot” button, no where does the 10 commandments forbid homosexuality. Certainly most Christians see that as a moral issue….but it was not even hinted at in the 10 commandments. If the 10 Commandments are the summary of God’s moral law, then we need to get out of that debate in the public square because it’s just not there. God is the author of ALL the law, not just the 10 words. Scripture doesn’t say Ex. 20 is moral and Lev 23 is ceremonial. Moral aspects of the law are throughout scripture and not definable in terms of chapter and verse.


198. Johnny C
February 23, 2006
3:28 PM

So, Melissa, the whole concept of the sabbath, any sabbath, is being violated. Sounds as though you, and my other new found former adventist friends, have tossed it out altogether with the bath water. I agree, most folks are distancing themselves further and further from God. When you look beyond the “ten”, what else is there? Homosexuality? We’re talking about a serious detour here.


199. Jeremy
February 23, 2006
8:18 PM

Johnny C,

The two commandments that Jesus said are the greatest are outside the Ten—and are found in Deuteronomy and Leviticus:

37And He said to him, ” ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’

38”This is the great and foremost commandment.

39”The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ (Matthew 22:37-39 NASB.)

Jeremy


200. Johnny C
February 23, 2006
11:28 PM

You are absolutely right, Jeremy. God’s law is summed up in those two statements. The first four describe our love to God. The last six, our love to our fellow man.


201. Colleen
February 25, 2006
3:16 AM

Yes, Johnny, Ellen White did say that Jesus would come back through the nebula in Orion. I grew up gazing at Orion’s belt and imagining Jesus coming—and wondering what glories of heaven that nebula hid from my eyes!

No, that understanding is no more reliable than is her vision of Enoch on Jupiter.

Arguing about the law (subtext “The Sabbath”) is truly pointless, as Paul points out in Titus 3:9. The truth about the New Covenant is really very clear throughout the NT—if one is willing to know the truth and submits him/herself to the Holy Spirit’s teaching. Read Hebrews, Galatians, Romans, for starters. 2 Corinthians 3 says it so clearly: a veil covers the hearts of those who read Moses.

Whenever a person turns to Christ, however, the veil is removed. One must be willing to walk away from Moses as any sort of continuing authority in one’s life when one is born again—just as the Transfiguration demonstrated. One must be willing stake EVERYTHING on Jesus, not hedging his bets. When one is willing to know and do whatever God’s will is, that veil disappears, and the truth of Jesus’ fulfillment of everything in the OT is so clear.

I’ve often wondered how I didn’t see these things for so long. But really, I know how I missed them: I was trying to hold onto Jesus at the same time I was trying to hold onto the law. That situation is spiritual bigamy, to quote a marvelous term I heard last weekend. We can’t be married to two spouses at once; we can’t be “married” both to the shadow and to the reality. We can only belong to one.

Colleen


202. Johnny C
February 25, 2006
9:29 AM

I don’t think there is life on Jupiter.
Jesus is the law. No man cometh to the Father but by Him.
Are we arguing?
Happy Sabbath, Colleen.


203. melissa
February 28, 2006
12:49 AM

JohnnyC, I’ve never been an adventist. Never been inside an SDA church. I do have a son with an SDA, however.

In terms of what is moral and what isn’t, I don’t see homosexuality as a big detour. Some claim, and I can’t remember who, that the 10 commandments are God’s “moral law” and his character and all sorts of other things. Even you said Jesus is the law. Where on earth does scripture say that? IF the 10 are the beginning and the end of morality (or even Jesus), then homosexuality is not a moral issue. And if it’s not a moral issue, why on earth are so many Christians willing to debate it? I’m just trying to follow that logic to what seems to me as a natural conclusion IF the 10 commandments are “the moral law” beginning and end.

And yes, I guess in how you view sabbaths, I’ve tossed them out. They were a shadow of a reality which I have embraced in its place. Instead of remembering a day, I remember Jesus and his shed blood and the sacrifice for me that was symbolic in passover and atonement and first fruits and all other sabbaths. 2 Corin 3 is clear that their glory is passed away and fading. Jesus never fades and he’s available 24/7. I don’t really need any “other” rest mechanism.


204. Johnny C
February 28, 2006
11:42 AM

Melissa,
Is it really neccessary for me to quote bible texts to the contrary? I think not. I have a number of aquaintances who are gay. It’s difficult to walk through life in these times and not encounter homosexuality, especially in the restaurant business. Not to mention the theatre, which has been my hobby. I even have a first cousin who, after a failed marriage, crossed over. She was not born gay, rather, she adopted the behavior. I think she had heavy persuasion but, nonetheless, it was her choice in the end. As Colleen has already stated, the fact we can construct an argument to support our idea does not make it so. Homosexual behavior has infiltrated every layer of society. I suspect it has made it all the way to the white house. Legislature is being affected by it. Anything threatening to it is being tossed out. This includes the ten commandments, the heart of which is the sabbath. We, as a country, have a history of getting rid of that which we do not understand, are afraid of, or is threatening to our lifestyles. We then find a scapegoat on which to place the blame. In the case of the American Indian, we simply killed them. If there ever was a people living in harmony with God and the Earth Mother, it was them. It is not my place to condem my gay and lesbian friends. Some would say individuals belonging to a certain sect of people are not dangerous. Rather, the religion is. By the same token I say gays and lesbians are not dangerous. Rather, homosexuality is.


205. Boyfrienddan
March 5, 2006
10:12 PM

It seems for the latter parts of these discussions the topic on morality becomes ever-resounding. Well, let me pose a question then:

Will not keeping the Sabbath be morally wrong?


206. Johnny C
March 11, 2006
3:05 PM

That’s like asking will killing my brother be morally wrong. Interesting how this discussion has gone silent, isn’t it?


207. Jeremy
March 14, 2006
12:07 AM

The discussion probably went silent because it seemed that almost everything that can be said by both sides had already been said.

But to answer the question: Will not keeping the Sabbath be morally wrong?

Of course “not keeping the Sabbath” is NOT morally wrong!

In fact, it is morally wrong to KEEP the Sabbath—if you are putting yourself under the Law, in direct violation of Paul’s epistle to the Galatians!

In fact, even if the Ten Commandment covenant WERE still in force, it would STILL be morally WRONG to KEEP the Sabbath, if you are a Gentile. It was God’s special sign between Him and Israel (Ex. 31), to set them apart from the Gentiles. You were not allowed to keep the Sabbath, if you had not been circumcised and become a Jew and become a part of the Mosaic Law Covenant.

And what does the NT say about that?

“Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.” (Gal. 5:2-3 NASB.)

Since that was the entrance sign to the Mosaic/Ten Commandment Covenant between God and Israel, this also includes all other efforts at keeping the Mosaic Law, such as Sabbath keeping.

And if you put yourself under the Law at all, you are under obligation to keep the ENTIRE Law—all 613 commandments.

“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.’” (Ga. 3:10 NASB.)

If you want to (try to) work your way to heaven by (maybe) becoming sinless (which is still not good enough to meet God’s never-having-sinned standard)—rather than resting in Jesus Christ’s finished work on the Cross alone for your salvation and KNOWING that you HAVE eternal life (1 John 5:13)—then you better quit keeping the Sabbath!

What does God’s Word say about those who try to put people under the Law?

“I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.” (Galatians 5:12 NASB.)

It is a SIN against Jesus Christ to try to put people under the Law and make them keep the Sabbath.

It blasphemes Him who is the fulfillment of the Law, and who is the Reality of Rest that the Sabbath shadow pointed to. (Col 2:16-17.)

Jesus is BETTER than the Old Covenant and BETTER than the Sabbath shadow (Hebrews, incl. chapter 4).

“For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.”

“For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.” (Hebrews 7:12, 18-19 NASB.)

Praise God for a New Law and a better hope in Jesus Christ!

Jeremy


208. Johnny C
March 15, 2006
9:06 AM

So, Jeremy, are you saying the “New Law” is actually no law at all? When Jesus died did not the Gospel go to the Gentiles?


209. Colleen
March 16, 2006
1:12 AM

Johnny, it is a straw-man argument to try to make a “New Law” to be “no law”.

The law of Christ is clearly written throughout the pages of the New Testament. No one here is advocating lawlessness—and no one here is advocating a “feel good” approach to morality. The NT is extremely clear about the level of morality a Christ-follower is to embrace. Further, the NT is extremely clear that no one can possibly achieve this level of morality with the indwelling Holy Spirit and learning to submit to Him (read Romans 8, for example).

Truth and reality are found in Scripture, and it comes alive by the Holy Spirit working in us as we submit our lives to every verse.

Colleen


210. Johnny C
March 16, 2006
9:03 PM

Colleen, thank you for staying in touch. It is exactly this kind of reasoning that will bring about the sunday laws. The message of the sabbath was taken to the Gentiles after the Jews rejected it. It was not neccessary for them to be circumcised. They wern’t going to be Jews, they were just going to be saved. I think Pauls’ message was a rebuke, Jeremy. I think even the original catholic church was honoring the sabbath. Agreed, your last quote points to Christ. Jesus doesn’t have to offer sacrifice because He is the sacrifice. We, on the other hand, must render our obedience to Him. “I will put My law into their hearts and in their minds will I write them.” Their was no more offering for sins because Jesus was the offering. “He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God…” If you thought breaking Moses’ law was bad… “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Be not carried about with diverse and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace…”
Both of you, I am truely intrigued with your background and your current way of thinking. Please stay in touch.


211. Jeremy
March 18, 2006
5:06 PM

Johnny C,

WHERE exactly in the NT is the “message of the Sabbath” taken to the Gentiles? I only see the message Jesus Christ and Him crucified taken to the Gentiles.

And Paul says: “For I determined to know NOTHING among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2 NASB.)

That is the Gospel that was taken to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were told to NOT keep the Law of Moses.

You wrote: “So, Jeremy, are you saying the ‘New Law’ is actually no law at all?”

I did not say that. I quoted Hebrews 7:12: “For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.”

This new law is called the Law of Messiah (Christ) in a couple places in the NT, including in the following passage:

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.” (1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NASB.)

Notice that Paul says he is not under the Law (Jewish/Mosaic Law), but then he says that he IS under the Law of Christ. So the Law of Christ (Messiah) is obviously NOT the Mosaic Law—it is a NEW Law that the Messiah instituted.

It is not “no law”—as Colleen pointed out, we have the whole NT explaining it to us, and the indwelling Holy Spirit holds us accountable and leads us. He (the Holy Spirit) is the New Covenant Law of Messiah written in our minds and hearts.

The early church did not believe in or keep the Sabbath. Take a look at these quotes from the early church fathers: http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

You wrote: “It is exactly this kind of reasoning that will bring about the sunday laws.”

How is our reasoning going to bring about the “Sunday Laws”? (BTW, please quit trying to deny that you believe in EGW/Seventh-day Adventism—the strange “Sunday Law” prediction comes straight from EGW/SDA!)

We are NOT saying that Sunday is the Sabbath, or that it is a required day of rest, worship, or anything else. The Sabbath day has been abolished.

How is that reasoning going to bring about the “Sunday Laws”??!?!

BTW, for those of you not familiar with the cultic theology of Seventh-day Adventism, the SDAs and their prophet Ellen G. White teach that the Protestants and Catholics will unite with each other and with “Spiritualism” to enact a UNIVERSAL law which forces people to worship God on Sunday. They teach that Christians will persecute them (the seventh-day “Sabbath-keepers”) for not keeping this law and will have them arrested and sentenced to death. This doctrine makes many of them fear and hate Christians. They teach that anyone who worships GOD on Sunday, knowing that it is not a prescribed holy day, will receive the Mark of the Beast—and that keeping the seventh-day Sabbath will earn you the “seal of God” (although the Bible says that we who have been born again have already been sealed by THE HOLY SPIRIT unto the day of redemption—Eph. 4:30).

I still must ask, what is wrong with obeying the Sunday Law and worshipping God on that day? Where does God forbid us from worshipping Him on ANY day?

In fact, it would be a sin not to obey the Sunday Law, according to Romans 13:

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority HAS OPPOSED THE ORDINANCE OF GOD; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.” (Romans 13:1-2 NASB.)

You’re not opposing any ordinance of God by worshipping Him on Sunday (even if you believe in Sabbath-keeping), but you WOULD be opposing the ordinance of God if you were to disobey the governing authorities and disobey the “sunday law”!

The Sabbath commandment does not say that you can’t worship God on Sunday—and in fact it does not even say to worship God on the seventh-day; only to REST.

Even Ellen G. White once wrote that the Sunday laws should be obeyed and to devote Sunday to God as a day of doing the Lord’s work and holding religious meetings!


So I have to wonder where the persecution comes in…

Jeremy


212. Johnny C
March 19, 2006
7:58 PM

Jeremy,
If you really desire to know my religious background, please e-mail me. Yes, I have read a good deal of Ellen White’s writings. That much is obvious to those with our background. You make a very good argument and I understand what you, Colleen, and others are saying but when you say, “the Sabbath day has been abolished’, I am totally freaked. There are many reading this thread who feel Sunday is the Sabbath as much as I believe Saturday is. The very apostles were in subjection to the governing authorities, even unto death when the ordinances of man were contrary to the word of our Lord. I agree with much of what you have to say in this post. We are all wondering where the persecution will come in. They must have had it pretty good in Noah’s day too, you know.


213. Jeremy
March 19, 2006
9:55 PM

Well, it all comes down to this:

What is the Old/Mosaic Covenant?

“So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB.)

Is that Covenant still in effect?

“When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13 NASB.)

Jeremy


214. Johnny C
March 20, 2006
7:23 PM

We are trading our freedom for security every day. The ten commandments have never changed. The new covenant is in your heart. I love you, man.


215. Boyfrienddan
March 22, 2006
9:19 PM

I’m confused myself, Johnny C:

“Truth and reality are found in Scripture, and it comes alive by the Holy Spirit working in us as we submit our lives to every verse.” And so in saying this we can take it onto the Holy Spirit to SELECT certain things that we must keep and things we reject that are in Scripture?

“In fact, it is morally wrong to KEEP the Sabbath—if you are putting yourself under the Law, in direct violation of Paul’s epistle to the Galatians!” - I find it strange why at this point, one cannot say that “to keep the Sabbath is in direct violation of CHRIST’s teachings,” Rather, of Paul. I am perplexed by this.

I agree with Johnny C’s point that a lot of Christians today have no idea which one was the actual, factual Sabbath. That is a contention that we must not deny face. Because although Jeremy and Colleen may both agree of a “Sabbath abolition,” the fact of the Bible remains, that there was, and still is, Sabbath (without the contest of whether to keep it or not, in your terms). It is like awakening people to the fact that there WAS a Flood, there WAS a certain day that the sun stood still, there WAS a “Jewish teacher” who was innocently hung on the cross. Ask a certain Christian when their concept of the Sabbath is, and more often than not, they’ll tell you it is on a Sunday.

I think we are trying to oversimplify the Law of love that a lot of the “New Covenant” believers are trying to administer to us. If the proceeds of the “new covenant” prose that are dealt with in Jeremiah are to be construed, there still is that lingering fact - we have sinned. I can easily ask - so what law is it that is written in our hearts? And why is there still so much evil in this world?

And it is still prevalent, that in a sense we equate Sabbath-keeping with Jewishness (or SDAism, as some of you may call it). The Jews have been lambasted so much, I think. “But unless you exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, YOU CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.” Shall I say, we are in direct violation of CHRIST’s teachings?

I came up with the “morality” issue in somehow insuating whether Christ’s salvation is merely directed at our “moral” or “immoral” acts. My personal opinion: I don’t think so. The Bible did not say: “God is moral.” My Bible says, “God is love.”


216. Boyfrienddan
March 22, 2006
10:24 PM

I was reading on the link that Jeremy gave. Some things I noticed:

“It (Sunday) is the day God requires all Christians to gather together to worship and eat the Lord’s Supper (communion, break bread) Acts 20:7.” Although the preceding implications stated that it is not a Holy day, suddenly, they strike me with this one. “God requires?” Acts 20:7 didn’t say anything about that.

The site also says that since the word “Sabbath” was not in Genesis’ creation account, it has no bearing as one eternal. I could explicitly say that the other nine laws that are in the ten commandments weren’t there either.

The “Historical” records being presented were somehow confusing too. Sure, they said that “early Christians” adopted, by themselves and no external force whatsoever, the worship on the first day, and implicated the non-keeping of the “Jewish Sabbath.” Has it improved from there? No. It took the martyrs that they wrote about to actually had to die to prove that there is such a thing as dying FOR God and what they believed (and had faith in) to be true.

Colossians 2:14-17. I can have that be enforced in my Christian walk in two ways: Abolished ordinances? Heb 9:1 talks about ordinances of the sanctuary service too. The other part of the message: “Let no man judge you …” Reading upon the site given, I cannot say I am not being judged in the day that I keep.

I still say that in the things I’ve read from the site (www.bible.ca), here are some things one can observe:

1. Anything that the BIBLE cannot fully say in a way that all of us can understand: Go to church history. Only they have the final say.
2. The Law is The Law. You can’t say Adam had knowledge of even the ten commandments. But you can still say that Adam sinned.
3. Adventism is evil. The fact that you can be enlightened only once is enough to tell you that there is no other authority that can give me what I desperately need for spiritual enrichment.
4. The ten commandments and the old covenant are the same. So that even if the ten commandments say that there is evil in adultery, it has no bearing. I can only trust that Christ got the mention of adultery from somewhere else.
*Sidenote for this, uhm, fact: Christ said. “I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets.”
5. That which Christ did not say, is a given through tradition.

“Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; Taste not; handlenot; which ll are to perish with the ushering; after the commandments and doctrines OF MEN?”


217. Johnny C
March 23, 2006
6:49 PM

Dan,
I’m not sure I grasp where you are coming from but I will comment on your “observations”.
First, God will have the final say.
Second; Adams’ sin was failing the one true test that proved his loyalty to his maker. As for the rest of the “commandments”, there was an understood law of love and order in the universe under which he and his wife lived and all other created beings in other worlds continue to live.
Third; “Adventism is evil”? The reformers took what light they were given and advanced the gospel to that extent.
Fourth; The ten commandments are designed to keep order in the universe. It is an unspoken, understood law of love. The “old covenant” was given to God’s chosen people. They were set apart. As far as the ceremonial laws go, I think we all understand they were designed to point forth to the cross. That much was given to our first parents when they were expelled from Eden.
I cannot debate your sidenote. Jesus came to fulfill the law.
Finally, tradition is a dangerous concept.
I do not steal or kill, for example, because I love my neighbor. Not because I fear a jail or death penaly by doing so. If I had not been commanded to “remember” the seventh day sabbath, I would continue to honor it for the same reason set forth from the beginning. Keeping the sabbath, for me, is a profession of faith, and trust, and loyalty, and love.
After all, in a book full of “thou shalt nots”, it is one of the few things He actually tells us TO do.


218. Jeremy
March 25, 2006
7:51 PM

Dan,

What are you saying—that Paul should not be part of the New Testament???! Paul’s epistles are the Word of God—he explains the teachings of Christ to us.

” I can easily ask - so what law is it that is written in our hearts?”

It is the New Covenant Law of Christ—much more than ten simple commands.

“And it is still prevalent, that in a sense we equate Sabbath-keeping with Jewishness (or SDAism, as some of you may call it). The Jews have been lambasted so much, I think.”

Who’s attacking the Jews? All we’re saying is that we are not supposed to follow commands given to the Jews, when we are Gentiles. And the Mosaic Law has now been abolished anyway (Eph 2:15).

I am are not anti-Jews at all. I am just saying we should not be following Judaism. We are Christians—we should be following CHRIST’s teachings!

“‘But unless you exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, YOU CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.’ Shall I say, we are in direct violation of CHRIST’s teachings?”

The only way to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is to have Christ’s righteouness IMPUTED to our account, by faith in His life and death as sufficient to save us.

I did not read what the link to bible.ca said—my ONLY reason for linking to that page was what I clearly stated: for the quotes from the Early Church fathers, to show that the Early Church did NOT believe in or keep the Sabbath as had been CLAIMED by Johnny C.

I was not endorsing that webpage.

“4. The ten commandments and the old covenant are the same. So that even if the ten commandments say that there is evil in adultery, it has no bearing. I can only trust that Christ got the mention of adultery from somewhere else.”

Even if an author of a New Law did get some of his laws from a previous Law—does that mean the previous Law is still in effect?

America adopted many laws from British Law but that does not mean the British Law was still in effect for Americans or that America wanted anyone to be under British Law. They were to be under an entirely New Law: American Law.

“*Sidenote for this, uhm, fact: Christ said. ‘I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets.’”

The Greek word for “destroy” (KJV) or “abolish” (NASB, NIV), according to Strong’s concordance, can mean, “to loosen down (disintegrate), i.e. (by impl.) to demolish…” So “destroy” may actually be a better translation of that word. Jesus didn’t come to “overthrow/tear down/demolish” the Law but came to fill it up/complete it/finish it/fulfill it! It’s looks like a sort of opposites are being portrayed by Jesus—tear down vs. fill up.

But Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus did abolish the Law. The Greek word there is a different word. Strong’s concordance says that word means, “to be (render) entirely idle (useless)…” It’s also the same word that’s used in 2 Corinthians 3. So while Jesus did not come to tear down the Law, He came to fulfill/complete it, and once He did that, He DID abolish/do away with/disannul (Hebrews 7:18) the Law!

Hebrews 7:18 says that the Law has been, literally, canceled/put away. It is the same Greek word used in Hebrews 9:26 for “put away” where it says that “now once at the consummation of the ages He [Jesus] has been manifested to PUT AWAY sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

So, as much as our sin has been canceled and put away and is GONE—so is the LAW.

It has been replaced by the Law of Messiah.

Jeremy


219. Jeremy
March 25, 2006
8:03 PM

Let’s look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB):

“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18”For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law UNTIL all is accomplished.”

Now that Jesus has accomplished everything and fulfilled the Law—it can now pass away, and has, according to Hebrews 8:13:

“When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to DISAPPEAR.”

Jeremy


220. Johnny C
March 25, 2006
8:23 PM

Jeremy,
God has a people. Jews, Gentiles, we’re all alike. The Mosaic law was nailed to the cross, yes, but not God’s law. There was no dispute over which day was the sabbath until the reign of Nimrod because until then there was only one sabbath day. Jesus fulfilled all that had pointed forth to His ultimate sacrifice for our redemption. That is the old covenant that has been put away. “All” is not yet accomplished. The world as we know it is becoming obselete, and growing old, and getting ready to disappear. Be ready.


221. Boyfrienddan
March 27, 2006
12:01 AM

You were able to grasp where I was coming from, Johnny C.

What if it was so, Jeremy? What if Paul’s was not supposed to be an acceptable teaching (I did read somewhere that Paul’s teachings kind of contradict those of Christ)? What will we do then?

If only the Four Gospels were our only reference, where can we find that there is no Sabbath anymore after Christ’s death and ressurection? We can easily say that we shouldn’t believe Paul because HE WAS NEVER THERE?

I still remember one of the questions in the pages over at the www.bible.ca, concerning Seventh-day Adventists:

“If the Sabbath law is still in force, then why do they not stone their own members when they break the Sabbath as the law said?”

Apparently, as it proposes, SDAs don’t like being asked these questions. Well, that’s an easy answer: “Whoever did not sin, cast the first stone.”

That, I think, is the essence of the law of Love. Including the keeping a peculiar day, because we accept to be a peculiar people.


222. Jeremy
March 27, 2006
11:48 PM

In Matthew 11-12, Jesus clearly teaches that the Sabbath was a mere ceremonial law, a shadow pointing forward to Himself. In 11:28-30, He says that HE will give rest for your soul. In 12:1-5, Jesus defends His disciples’ Sabbath-breaking and does not claim they were not breaking the Sabbath. Instead, He says that it’s ok for them to be breaking a ceremonial law (the Sabbath) and compares it to David breaking a ceremonial law when he was hungry. It would not be ok to break a moral law, such as stealing, just because you’re hungry! The Sabbath is obviously ceremonial like the law David broke when he was hungry. Then He says that the priests BREAK the Sabbath in the temple and are innocent. It is obviously not a moral law or else they could not be innocent. In 12:5-8, He says that the temple service (ceremonial) is greater than/takes precedence over the Sabbath, and then He says that He is greater than even the Temple, and especially the Sabbath—in fact, He is Lord over it. He is the Fulfillment and Substance of all of those things which were mere shadows of Him: the Sabbath, the Temple, the Whole Law.

That is what Hebrews 10:1 says. BTW, Hebrews was not written by Paul. Hebrews 2:3 indicates that Paul did not write the book, since Paul says that he got his gospel directly from Jesus and not from people, and the author of Hebrews says:

“how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,” (Hebrews 2:3 NASB.)

Compare that to what Paul said:

“For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12 NASB.)

Jeremy


223. Jeremy
March 27, 2006
11:55 PM

For more from the Gospels, see my last post before the above one, about Matthew 5:17-18.

Also:

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” (Luke 16:16 KJV.)

Jeremy


224. Jeremy
March 28, 2006
12:24 AM

Look at that above verse! JESUS is the one who said the Law is done, and that He was instituting a NEW Covenant (Luke 22:20).

But if Paul is a false apostle, how can you trust Luke’s Gospel, as he was a friend of Paul’s who wrote Acts???

And then how can you trust Peter, who says that Paul’s writings are Scripture? And how can you trust Mark, who was Paul’s friend—and apparently Mark’s gospel actually came from Peter. And how can you trust John and Matthew who endorse Peter, when Peter endorses Paul???

Also Paul was welcomed by James. And Jude proudly said he was James’ brother.

So, we’re left with absolutely no New Testament except for the book of Hebrews which teaches that the Law (including Sabbath) has been done away with, and teaches the same theology that Paul does! So Hebrews must be false, too.

Hmm, I guess we can’t have a New Testament.

But then how can we believe in Jesus??

So, to sum it up, if we don’t believe in Paul, we can’t believe in Jesus!

Jeremy


225. James H
March 28, 2006
3:12 AM

WOW!

I missed ALL this action…

Go figure. I was resting. It was Sunday.

Thank God for the rest we have in Christ, huh?

Love y’all,
James H.


226. Boyfrienddan
March 28, 2006
6:15 AM

Bravo, Jeremy. Bravo. I thank Christ that the New Testament is so inspired by the Holy Spirit. I rejoice for Paul, and his counsel.

So, going back to my posts a couple of times ago - do people really know that Saturday is the Sabbath? Check: 225.

Now you quote Matthew 11 and 12, as pertaining to Christ himself “breaking” the Sabbath. But how about: “Wherefore it is LAWFUL to do well on the Sabbath days.” Matt 12:12. After all that argument with the Pharisees about having done “unlawful” things, here suddenly Christ sets a precedent over what may be done in the Sabbath. What “ceremonial laws” would have been amiss, when through Christ the law of Love persists?

The same chapter you hold to be abolishing the seventh-day, the same is where Christ Himself does not pertain to such an act.

Even with Matt 5, you can easily say that the “fulfillment” has already come. But has the earth and heaven passed away? How may you reconcile such seeming contradictions?

That’s what may blind us (though you can mark me as being SDAist/EGWist), even such the religious leaders in the days of Christ did, is that we measure what we do with the salvation that we have, although we seem to reverse-engineer it. But ask yourself - do you perform the Lord’s supper to be saved? Do you get baptized to be saved (although that’s another area there)? So, do you keep the Sabbath to be saved? We may easily well say, “Oh, now I see the truth!” But Christ Himself has taught about being able to “see”, but because of such a claim, we are “blind.”

Jesus Christ, when He was on Earth, made the Sabbath a delight. How? “Do good.”


227. Johnny C
March 28, 2006
12:50 PM

I haven’t taken communion in decades since that is a church activity and I haven’t attended a church service in as long. That’s not to say I am against belonging to a church. I’m just not a joiner. You do pose an interesting question, Dan, when you ask, “do you perform the Lord’s supper to be saved?” Jesus said, “this do in rememberance of me. ” Was that a new commandment?
As for baptism, I was baptized once when I was a child of nine. (There you have it, Jeremy) I suppose the conversion experience that led to that profession of faith would be what many consider being saved. I do not suppose that with the latter rain converts are going to rush out in hords to be baptized. Rather, I think they are going to accept Jesus as their saviour and invite Him into their hearts wherever they may be. The Holy Spirit will take care of the sealing process. “Do you get baptized to be saved?” That may be like saying you have to belong to a church to be saved. I think not. I believe that with the Loud Cry millions will come out of the churches and become one, commandment keeping church. Every truely honest soul, I believe, will come to this understanding.
“So, do you keep the sabbath to be saved?” I find it interesting how so many millions have no problem with keeping nine commandments and have total disregard for the fourth. I do understand that merely conforming to the law of God and keeping these laws out of a sense of duty or obligation only is not where it’s at. That’s where the Pharisees got hung up. “Look at me. I’m not sinning! Therefore I am righteous.”
I accept the gift of salvation as a final reward. I have no problem with Paul’s teachings, Jeremy, I just don’t see him exercising any authority to override any of the teachings of Jesus. Nor do I understand Jesus changing anything. Jesus never fails and He does not change. He is perfect.
Jeremy, you sound like we already have heaven on earth. I understand the new testament as a volume of promises. The fulfillment of which is yet to come.


228. Colleen
March 28, 2006
11:41 PM

Johnny and Dan, you really can’t establish spiritual truth by philosophical argument. What we THINK things mean is irrelevant. We can’t dismiss the words of Scripture (or explain them away) because we think they don’t fit the picture we have of “truth”.

As John Piper says in his book “Brothers, We Are Not Professionals”, the difficult passages in the Bible are there for us to take to the Lord Jesus, asking Him to teach us Himself and to reveal His truth to us. If we are not willing to submit our intellects and our penchant for textual “analysis” to God for His teaching through His Spirit, we will end up in error and deception.

As for Paul (and yes, I take the very words of Scripture seriously—it is not my prerogative to explain them away or to alter their meanings), here are his words:

“I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me by the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ and to MAKE PLAIN TO EVERYONE [emphasis mine] the administration of this mystery which for ages past was kept hidden in God who created all things.”

Paul, the apostle sovereignly selected by God, the very one who was taken into the “third heaven” fourteen years before the book of 2 Corinthians was written (and years before any of his episltes was written), the one who saw eternity and was not permitted to tell what he saw (see 2 Cor 12)—this is the one whom God selected to explain the working of the new covenant. He actually saw and was taught by God the things he wrote.

How dare we sit here in 2006 and, from our cursory readings of the New Testament, decide that Paul may not have spoken with God’s authority?

If we can’t take Paul’s words as the completely reliable, authoritative words of Scripture, we have no reason to take any of the Old Testament or of the Gospels as authoritative, either. Either all is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16), or none of it is reliable.

We must be very careful how we approach the word of God. We stand in danger of saying our own understanding is superior to the revelation by the Holy Spirit given to the holy men of God who wrote as they were inspired by Him. Such an attitude comes awfully close to blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit.

Colleen


229. Jeremy
March 29, 2006
12:47 AM

Dan,

Yes, Jesus said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. What He did not say was that it was keeping the Sabbath or not breaking the Sabbath. He clearly said that the priests break the Sabbath and are blameless. What they were doing was very lawful—in fact, their service in the temple was prescribed by the Law itself. They were breaking the Sabbath (a ceremonial law), yet were keeping the Law as a whole. The temple service took precedence over the command to rest on the Sabbath day.

The apostle John clearly says that Jesus broke the Sabbath (John 5:18).

“Even with Matt 5, you can easily say that the ‘fulfillment’ has already come. But has the earth and heaven passed away? How may you reconcile such seeming contradictions??”

Heaven and earth do not need to pass away first!

Jesus said, “until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law UNTIL all is accomplished.”

That does not mean heaven and earth must pass away first. Not at all. Once “all is accomplished” the Law can disappear. It’s just a very strong way of wording things. He is saying that the Law must be fulfilled first—and that once it is, its job is done and it can disappear. That is what the double “until” means—if the second one happens, then the Law can disappear.

But what I really find interesting about this passage is that Jesus says in verse 17 “the Law or the Prophets”—He is not just talking about the Ten Commandments!

So how can this passage be used to say that Jesus did not get rid of the Ten Commandments, but DID get rid of the rest of the Law?

Johnny C,

Of course Paul does not contradict Jesus’ teachings. As Colleen quoted above though, he does make plain the new covenant and the teachings of Jesus.

And we need to take his clear statements as they read.

When he says to cast out the Ten Commandments in Galatians 4:30, we must obey.

Jeremy


230. Boyfrienddan
March 29, 2006
1:03 AM

“We must be very careful how we approach the word of God. We stand in danger of saying our own understanding is superior to the revelation by the Holy Spirit given to the holy men of God who wrote as they were inspired by Him. Such an attitude comes awfully close to blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit.” This is exactly what I mean Colleen, when I posed a question about Paul. Trust me, I’m not against any of his teachings, writings, or inspiration. What I am trying to say is that we can always exercise the same kind of testing with the whole of Scripture, and basically, we end up not coming up with the same conclusions.

I do not think we can question the reliability of Scripture at all. Based on how I see it however, we pick one part of it and neglect the other (as shown in my post answering Matt 11 and 12).

Take this for example. www.bible.ca claims that there was no mention of the Sabbath in the Genesis creation account. Sure, there was none. That is true. But can you really say that there was no mention of the same seventh-day that Sabbath is all about? You can’t, can you? So that conclusion may be what you are talking about as a danger - pointing to a certain “truth” when we can see for a fact that this revelation itself can give its own testimony.

We may think that these have no bearing at all, but let me point to you Christ Himself. He had one of the most notoriously new kind of teaching that the people have never heard of in line with their religious leaders. But He was never afraid to give them Scripture after Scripture that defined other Scripturally-based beliefs by the Jews. So, if I present Scriptural basis of something that may confine your own Scripture basis, what will the accepted truth be?

We all do understand that ultimately the Holy Spirit is our teacher and guide for how we can further benefit from Scripture. But that is beyond the point that I am going for. My question remains: Can we still convince others that there at least was a seventh-day Sabbath and point that as a fact? How is that pertaining to our lives today? The latter, I think, is a question that this blog has been trying to address from the start. Not anti-SDA. Not anti-EGW. Not anti-law. WHAT DOES THE SABBATH MEAN TODAY?


231. Boyfrienddan
March 29, 2006
1:20 AM

I didn’t get to read Jeremy’s reply. Sorry.

Well, to be really going back on track:

What was the Sabbath for? Some of you have answered that it is the “covenant between God and the Jews.” But underlying that, why would an all-knowing, all-powerful God include that in such a “covenant?”

Has the seven-day weekly cycle passed? Where did we get the idea of using seven days anyway? Do we have, “everyday” now?

If you can tell me that the God of the Bible has made this really useless principle of setting one day apart, what kind of God is He? Why should we even bother?

I pose these now, not as philosophical arguments, nor to deter any of us from accepting plain Bible truth. I ask these to try to convince you to think beyond “the Law” and see the Spirit of the Law. The Law of Love.


232. Johnny C
March 29, 2006
11:23 AM

Jeremy,
John does not say Jesus broke the sabbath. John says that the Jews said that Jesus broke the sabbath.
Colleen,
If I blaspheme the Holy Spirit, He will leave me. I sense His presence in my life daily and I thank God for that. I rely on that presence to convict me of sin and lead me into truth.

“What does the sabbath mean today?”
“And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.”
“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.”
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow in His steps.”

The sabbath is a sign forever;
“Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever…”

The sabbath is a sign of God as the sanctifier;
“Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.”

“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.”

For me that is quite clear. I guess the question still remains, why is the sabbath there? Why is it so seemingly important? Why make it an issue at all?
One might also ask, why did God place that one tree in the midst of the garden? All it did was mess everything up for everybody. Why did that one tree have to be such an issue? How did our world, in the sorry state of affair it is today, result from the placement of a single, solitary tree?


233. Tim Challies
March 29, 2006
11:25 AM

I just want to commend everyone for a gracious, helpful discussion. It’s not often that a discussion on the Internet goes 232 comments and is still civil and worth reading!


234. Johnny C
March 29, 2006
12:01 PM

Thank you, Tim. Nice to hear from you. Thank you for posting the find that started this thread.


235. Colleen
March 30, 2006
2:24 AM

Tim, nice to “meet” you. Thank you for this blog.

I had an email conversation two or three years ago that put a required Sabbath in a whole new light. The person communicating with me was a Bible translator with Wycliffe. He was working on producing a written version of the Bible for an isolated, primitive tribe on an island that I can’t remember right now.

Here’s what he told me. This particular tribe (primitive, as I mentioned!) had no developed numeric system. They did not use any form of currency, and they did not formally count or quantify. They had representations for “one” and “two”, but beyond the number two, they had no numbers. Similarly, they did not have any concept of a week.

If the Sabbath were important for everyone, this translator told me, this tribe would have to be taught to count before they could be taught the gospel. Jesus, however, was something he could translate into even the most primitive language and culture.

The gospel must be entirely applicable in any culture. The concept of a sacred day does not translate into all cultures.

God’s expectations for His people cannot be different from one culture to another.

Colleen


236. Boyfrienddan
March 30, 2006
6:27 AM

“God’s expectations for His people cannot be different from one culture to another.”

This is still debatable, however, Colleen.

I say this because of Jonah’s experience. Culturally, the Assyrians were OK with much violence in their midst. But God was not OK with that. God’s expectations were completely opposite of their culture.

I guess we proceed to ill define the power of the Holy Spirit in this way if we suddenly say, “culturally, it cannot be.” Jesus Christ went beyond the culture of the Jews, a culture that grew into legalism, and redirected them to what really mattered - a relationship with a saving God.

I believe and have faith, that the gospel of the kingdom transcends any culture in this world. That’s what the gospel is for.


237. Colleen
March 31, 2006
2:40 AM

“A relationship with a saving God” is exactly what God desired for the Assyrians as well as for the Jews. His expectations did not differ; He sent Jonah, an Israelite, to Ninevah because He wanted the Assyrians to have faith in His promises—just as He desired Israel to have faith in His promises.

God’s expectations for people do not change from culture to culture. He desires for all people to respond to Him with faith in His Name and to forsake all other loyalties that claim their hearts in deference to Him. These requirements can be understood in any culture.

IOW, people do not need to be able to count to seven in order to have a saving relationship with the Redeemer.

Colleen


238. Boyfrienddan
April 2, 2006
1:47 AM

“IOW, people do not need to be able to count to seven in order to have a saving relationship with the Redeemer.” I do agree about “how” we can actually achieve a saving relationship with our God. And that has nothing to do with us - it is a power that only the Spirit of God can provide. I go back to that example of Jonah, where it stated that one of the reasons why such awesome forgiveness went to Nineveh was because “they do not know their left from their right.” As I see this Assyrian predicament, I think, yeah, these are the kinds of things that God overlooks through His grace. However, that did not mean that the Assyrians did not have to transform their ways. Upon receiving the warning, the people actually DID SOMETHING. Not because they knew they could, but because they have hoped for mercy, and they got it.

It is the message - Christ, the Word, which can transform, and span cultures.


239. Johnny C
April 2, 2006
3:47 PM

…And will continue to do so until the end of time as we know it. It is His desire that none should be lost.
The people of Nineveh repented and changed their “works” as a result of their repentance. ” IOW,” Christian nature at work.


240. Boyfrienddan
April 2, 2006
11:18 PM

My previous comments were a little general, so let me get it back on track with the Sabbath.

Based on Tim’s book report, “But do I truly believe this is an obligation? That is where I am not quite so sure. I struggle with this issue and intend to keep reading about it, studying both perspectives,” my answer here would be, no, keeping the Sabbath is not an obligation. Nor is honoring God an obligation. It is a result of the transformation under grace. (You may say that, ‘wait a minute, honoring God is NOT an obligation? So what am I a Christian for? Well, the sub-answer would be - Christianity is not an obligation either. It is a choice you have to make based on your faith in a Savior).

To be transformed into the Christian life, is to at least become a new Creation, a new being who WAS skeptical about devotion to God, but is NOW confident about what God can do in one’s life. That includes the Sabbath (IMHO), which sets us apart as Christ-trusting servants.


241. Colleen
April 3, 2006
1:27 AM

Dan, I suggest that you spend some time studying Galatians, then the book of Hebrews, and then Romans. The New Covenant is truly NEW, and now that we have the revelation of the Lord Jesus, our only continuing obligation is to honor Him.

There is much that doesn’t make sense when you try to understand the Bible with an Adventist background. You have been taught a certain way to understand the Bible, and when the Bible seems to contradict what you understand other passages to be saying, the temptation is to play with vocabulary to “explain” the disjunction, or to ignore the contradicting passages. The cognitive dissonance can be very confusing and unsettling.

There is a way to KNOW what is true. One must be willing to know—one must go before God and confess to having questions and confusion and commit to knowing Truth regardless of the cost. Knowing the Lord Jesus must be more important than cherishing what one has been taught.

Then you simply ask God to teach you the truth as you read the Bible. Ask Him to help you read it without any “preset” understandings or interpretations. I had to ask God to help me read the Bible without any subconsious Ellen White filters on my mind.

The discovery of true Bible teaching and the true identity and work of Jesus and the will of God may take months or even years to fully fall into place. But this you can KNOW: God is completely faithful, and when a person truly desires to know what is real, what is True, and truly wants to honor God, He will reveal Himself and teach you with His Spirit directly as you study the Bible.

We have a singular loyalty as Christ-followers: Jesus Himself. Our obedience is to Him, to the Law of the Spirit He puts in our spirits when we trust Him and are born from above. He does not share our alliegiance; a “sacred day” plays no part in our achieving or maintaining salvation. Jesus alone is all we need; He is our eternal security.

Jesus is enough!

With prayers for you,
Colleen


242. Boyfrienddan
April 3, 2006
9:25 AM

Thanks for the prayers Colleen. I appreciate it.

In lieu with what you posted however, I have to be a little critical. For one, you may “think” that I am one of those Adventists that you seem to have met. However, I should tell you that even my life-story is founded upon an honest conversion, unlike some that you may have encountered to be “generation-Adventists.” So for one, the tests that you applying on me as a person is too stereotypical.

I say this because of two things: One, the actual existence of this blog (along with its 200+ now posted comments) is proof enough that the topic does not just easily lay to rest. The fact that historically and Biblically, the Sabbath itself has become a great issue, it is something every Christian has a bit to think about. “Come and let us reason together.”

Two, because there is an underlying message of “maintaining” salvation. I term this loosely because it may be misinterpreted. But what I mean is simply illustrated in the parable of the ten virgins (all slept, but only half were prepared), which gives us a picture of making sure we know that the Savior comes, but we are equipped.

I do not know your Adventist background either. I have read your posts in the FAF discussion forums, and most of them resenting the Adventist organization. Honestly however, I could not say I am well convinced about the thoughts of the discussion, because the same people who regard the Sabbath as such, also seem to think that: God will allow the torment of those who do not accept Him when the days of the Earth end and is recreated and; that the “souls” of the dead today are with God in Heaven. My challenge - I could not find these in the same Bible that you are trying to advocate.

My point Colleen - my daily conversion in Christ and His Spirit has made me love Him so much to look forward to a day, a whole day, away from all my cares and devote to Him more. Yes, there is my daily devotions. But just like what we do with our families, special times do BECOME special times. That is the way I see the Sabbath. And that is the way I see a relational God. And yes, the Bible does tell me that.


243. Colleen
April 3, 2006
11:53 AM

And, according to Romans 14, no one is to judge you for any day you keep holy. That is between you and God, and were you to abandon that day for reasons apart from faith, that would, for you, be sin.

I realize that this blog is not primarily for or about Adventists. Because of the fact that I had to work through the position of the law in the New Covenant at such a detailed level, however, because of my Adventist background, I repsectfully disagree with the particular view of Reformed theology about the third use of the law. If the law is, indeed, a continuing authority for Christ-followers, the Adventists absolutely have the best argument. One cannot continue to embrace the Decalogue at any level as an authority for Christians and ignore the fourth commandment. To say that the day has been transferred or changed is really not Biblical. It can be argued from the standpoint of tradition, but not from a position of “transference”.

I can embrace a traditional day of public worship—Sunday—but I cannot embrace it as a “sacred” day. That suggeseted “transference” is not in the Bible.

What IS Biblical, though, is that Jesus fulfilled the entire law. Jesus Himself said He had to fulfill all that had been written in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms (Luke 24:44). Again, there is no Biblical example or mandate for separating the law into moral, civil, and ceremonial parts. Always, in both the Old and the New Testaments, the Law is referred to as a unit—all 613 laws of the Torah are included, even the 10 Commandments. It is a church tradition introduced around the 3rd or 4th century that “divided” the law into components. Such division is not found anywhere in Scripture.

My issue is not with the Sabbath per se. My concern is that we correctly understand the role of the law and the absolute adequacy of Jesus’ ilfe and death as the fulfilment of the ENTIRE law. Jesus hinted at His fulfillment and supercedence of the law on several occasions during His life. His chat with the Pharisees in Matthew 12, for example, cleary stated that He Himself was greater than the temple—the seat of Jewish life, culture, and law. By declaring Himself greater than that icon, He was saying that everything the temple “held” was in Him—and more: in Him was the perfect sacrifice and offering to God; in Him was the bread of life; in Him was the law; in Him was the Sabbath rest foreshadowed in the fourth commandment—in Him was all the perfect obedience all Israel–all humanity had not been able to accomplish.

Further, on the Mount of Transfiguration, when Moses (representing the Law to Israel) and Elijah (representing the prophets) appeared with Jesus, Peter, James and John fell to the ground. Peter wanted to honor all three of them, but the voice of God said, “This is my Son; listen to Him”—and when Jesus told them to arise, the Law and the Prophets had disappeared, and He alone stood before them. Then, to emphasize what had really happened, Jesus warned them on the way down the mountain not to tell anyone what they had seen and heard until after his resurrection. IOW, they had to live under the authority of the Law and the Prophets until Jesus completed the atoning sacrifice that ushered in the New Covenant. Until His death and resurrection, Israel had to live under the authority of the law.

The fear in saying the 10 Commandments was abolished is the fear of antinomianism. Such a fear, however, is groundless. When a person accepts Jesus’ death and resurrection as atonement for his sins and as the guarantee of his own future, the Holy Spirit brings his spirit to life (I challenge you to do a careful study of the NT on the word “spirit”—use a good Bible dictionary along with your inductive Bible study), and He indwells the believer. This new birth replaces the Law. The Law was temporary, given 430 years after Abraham until the Seed (see Galatians 3). God Himself, the personification of all morality, now indwells the believer. We have no need of the Decalogue.

Just to be sure that we remember how a Christ-follower is to live, however, God has given us Scripture—and the NT explains how the shadows in the OT were fulfilled in Christ. Now, the entire text of the NT serve as instruction for God’s people, and the OT demonstrates how God has been revealing His will through successive ages since Creation.

Dan, I do not have resentment for the Adventist church. In fact, just last night as I was pondering “stuff” before going to sleep, I lay in bed and thanked God for having allowed me to grow up Adventist. I would never have come to such an amazing understanding of His personal work in my life, the astonishing reality of Jesus and His completed work of salvation, His total fulfillment of the law, and the inexpressible freedom of being submitted to Him every momrent (a paradox, right?!) if I had not had to struggle with the subtle ways Adventism veiled Biblical truth.

Quite frankly, without the subtle, pre-conscious and powerful overlay of Ellen White’s interpretations in the background, the Bible is a completely different book. It just does not teach what we thought it did about the human spirit, our condition in death, God’s justice, His mercy—really, just about everything has been slightly “twisted”.

Just FYI, 2 Timothy 1:10 explains why the OT wasn’t as detailed and clear as the NT about what happens after death. This reality couldn’t have been revealed before Jesus came and “destroyed death”. Jesus “brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” We can’t use the OT without the full revelation of the NT explaining and isnterpreting the OT to form doctrine for Christians.

No, I do not resent Adventism at all. I believe it is a false religion, and I believe it still embraces a false prophet—but I thank God He brought me down this “road”, including my complete immersion to and loyalty to Adventism, because the reality of Jesus’ sufficiency and fulfillment of all the OT shadows is amazing. Knowing Jesus without the cognitive dissonance of having to make the OT shadows “fit” inside the new wineskin of the New Covenant is nothing short of a miracle.

I praise Him!

Colleen


244. Boyfrienddan
April 4, 2006
1:01 AM

“Quite frankly, without the subtle, pre-conscious and powerful overlay of Ellen White’s interpretations in the background, the Bible is a completely different book. It just does not teach what we thought it did about the human spirit, our condition in death, God’s justice, His mercy—really, just about everything has been slightly “twisted”.” Quite frankly too, it was never EGW that gave me the notion about the Biblical principles underlying the state of the dead. I just need to read Lazarus (the real one, not the parable) and his story and get from Martha that the “dead” are destined only to be reanimated at resurrection (which Christ Himself talks about happening in the end of this age). Like I said, I have been stereotyped, and will not accept it.

“God Himself, the personification of all morality, now indwells the believer. We have no need of the Decalogue.” I still, like a previous post I did, am grounded in the fact that it cannot be JUST a morality issue. It is about loyalties. Just like Paul writes that our citizenship is in Heaven, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us becomes a point of transformation. Not so to glorify ourselves (I AM A CHRISTIAN, THEREFORE, I AM GOOD), but to glorify God (this is the whole duty of Man).

What the NT offers, is not just a magnification of the OT. It is, in itself, a transformation - from mere ceremonies and rituals, the things we call shadows, to the real thing - the Savior in our hearts. Christ Himself used the OT (and to think, there wasn’t an NT to back Him up!) and revealed that it was good, but it was the people’s choice to make all of those benefits into burden.

What real freedom offers, I suppose, is unlike any human experience we’ve ever had (IMHO). Does lawlessness constitute freedom? I wouldn’t think so. Did God change the laws He writes in our hearts? It is more powerful. Remember that the New Covenant message also states, “So that no man may teach other men, for all shall know me.” A transformation involves, not a 360 degree turn, but a 180. Turning back from what was (and I don’t mean what was in terms of “judaizing”), and what was is following the traditions of men, rather than God.

It is still a puzzling ideal why, in reading the texts on “I have not come to abolish the law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them,” we usually go to the “fulfill” part. But what about the “abolish” part? It NEVER happened.

I have to admit, Colleen, the Adventist church does have a lot of problems. It does have a lot to change. It still has a lot of legalism to struggle with. But in the end, the individual must ONLY choose Christ.

We believe that He is coming back, soon.


245. Johnny C
April 5, 2006
10:53 PM

It’s a matter of the heart. In the end there are only two classes.