"The Shack" by William P. Young
I am certain that there is no other book I’ve been asked to review more times than William P. Young’s The Shack, a book that is currently well within the top-100 best-selling titles at Amazon. The book, it seems, is becoming a hit and especially so among students and among those who are part of the Emergent Church. In the past few weeks many concerned readers have written to ask if I would be willing to read it and to provide a review. Because I am always interested in books that are popular among Christians, I was glad to comply.
The Amazon reader reviews for The Shack are remarkable. With 102 reviews already posted, it is maintaining a five-star rating with fully ninety three of the reviewers awarding five stars. Only two have offered one star. A search of blogs and websites turns up near-unanimous enthusiastic (and almost unbridled) praise for the book. “This book is a life-changer, a transformer.” “[The Shack] has become a favorite book OF ALL TIME.” “I am changed. I pray indelibly. My oh my!” This book, which was released in May but which has already gone into its fourth printing, is making a major impact. It has obviously struck a chord with Christians.
I’ll warn in advance that this review is going to be long. My major focus will be the book’s content though I’ll pause to glance fleetingly at the book’s style as well. Because I’ve received so many questions and because the author covers so much ground in the book (and sometimes in a way that is somewhat unclear) I am going to proceed carefully and with many quotes.
There are two things I would like to note about this type of book—theological fiction. First, because of the limitations of the genre, it is sometimes difficult to really know what an author means by what he says. There is often some question as to what comes from the author and what comes from the characters. The author cannot always adequately explain himself; nor can he provide footnotes or references to Scripture. It can be challenging, then, to turn to the Bible to ensure that what he teaches is true. This makes the task of discernment doubly difficult, for one must first interpret the fiction to understand what is being said and then seek to compare that to the Bible. We will do well to keep this in mind as we proceed.
Second, we must also realize that, because of the emotional impact of reading good fiction, it can be easy to allow it to become manipulative and to allow the emotion of a moment to bypass our ability to discern what is true and what is not. This is another thing the reader must keep in mind. We cannot trust our laughter or our tears but must allow our powers of discernment to be trained to distinguish good from evil (see Hebrews 5:14). Discernment is primarily a Spirit-empowered discipline of the mind rather than an emotional response.
So let’s look at this book together, doing the task God requires of us when he tells us to be men and women of discernment—Christians who heed God’s admonition to “test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.” We’ll simply compare what Young teaches to the Bible.
The Book as a Book
First, a word about the book as it is written. William Young shows himself to be a capable writer, though I would not have believed it through the first couple of chapters. The book began with far too many awkward sentences and awkward sentence constructs (e.g. “One can almost hear a unified sigh rise from the nearby city and surrounding countryside where Nature has intervened to give respite to the weary humans slogging it out within her purview”). But as it went on and as the story took over the book became easier to read. The story itself is interesting enough, though certainly it lacks originality. The last chapter should have been left on the editing room floor and the final paragraph (before the “After Words”) was a ridiculously terse attempt to provide closure to remaining plot lines. But on the whole the book is readable and enjoyable. Never does it become boring, even after long pages of nothing but dialog.
But Young did not write this book for the story. This book is all about the content and about the teaching it contains. The book’s reviews focus not on the quality of the story but on its spiritual or emotional impact. Eugene Peterson grasps this, saying in his glowing endorsement, “When the imagination of a writer and the passion of a theologian cross-fertilize the result is a novel on the order of “The Shack.” This book has the potential to do for our generation what John Bunyan’s “Pilgrim’s Progress” did for his. It’s that good!” Could it really be that good? Is it good enough to warrant positive comparison to the English-language book that has been read more widely than any other save the Bible? Let’s turn to the book’s content and find out.
What Is The Shack?
The Shack revolves around Mack (Mackenzie) Philips. Four years before this story begins, Mack’s young daughter, Missy, was abducted during a family vacation. Though her body was never found, the police did find evidence in an abandoned shack to prove that she had been brutally murdered by a notorious serial killer who preyed on young girls. As the story begins, Mack, who has been living in the shadow of his Great Sadness, receives a strange note that is apparently from God. God invites Mack to return to this shack for a get together. Though uncertain, Mack visits the scene of the crime and there has a weekend-long encounter with God, or, more properly, with the godhead.
What should you do when you come to the door of a house, or cabin in this case, where God might be? Should you knock? Presumably God already knew that Mack was there. Maybe he ought to simply walk in and introduce himself, but that seemed equally absurd. And how should he address him? Should he call him Father, or Almighty One, or perhaps Mr. God, and would it be best if he fell down and worshipped, not that he was really in the mood.
As he tried to establish some inner mental balance, the anger that he thought had so recently died inside him began to emerge. No longer concerned or caring about what to call God and energized by his ire, he walked up to the door. Mack decided to bang loudly and see what happened, but just as he raised his fist to do so, the door flew open, and he was looking directly into the face of a large beaming African-American woman.
This large and oh-so-stereotypical matronly African-American woman is God (or at least an anthropomorphism of God she chose to take on in order to communicate with Mack). Throughout the story she is known as Papa. Near the end, because Mack requires a father figure, she turns into a pony-tailed, grey-haired man, but otherwise God is this woman. Jesus is a young to middle-aged man of Middle-Eastern (i.e. Jewish) descent with a big nose and rather plain looks while the Holy Spirit is played by Sarayu, a small, delicate and eclectic woman of Asian descent. By this point many people will choose to close the book and be done with it. But for the purposes of this review, let’s just assume you are able to get past seeing God and the Holy Spirit portrayed in this way and let’s press on.
There is very little action in The Shack and the bulk of the book is dialog, mostly as the members of the Trinity communicate with Mack, though occasionally we see glimpses into their relationship with one another. The banter between the members of the Trinity, most of which is geared towards helping us understand the love that exists between them, leads to some rather bizarre dialog. Take this as a typical example:
Mack was shocked at the scene in front of him. It appeared that Jesus had dropped a large bowl of some sort of batter or sauce on the floor, and it was everywhere. It must have landed close to Papa because the lower portion of her skirt and bare feet were covered in the gooey mess. All three were laughing so hard that Mack didn’t think they were breathing. Sarayu said something about humans being clumsy and all three started roaring again. Finally, Jesus brushed past Mack and returned a minute later with a large basin of water and towels. Sarayu had already started wiping the goop from the floor and cupboards, but Jesus went straight to Papa and, kneeling at her feet, began to wipe off the front of her clothes. He worked down to her feet and gently lifted one foot at a time, which he directed into the basin where he cleaned and massaged it.
“Ooooh, that feels soooo good!” exclaimed Papa, as she continued her tasks at the counter.
Young covers a wide variety of theological topics in this book, each of which is relevant to the theme of Mack’s suffering and his inability to trust in a God who could let his daughter be treated in such a horrifying way. The author is unafraid to tackle subjects of deep theological import—a courageous thing to do in so difficult a genre as fiction. The reader will find himself diving into deep waters as he reads this book.
Much of what Young writes is good and even helpful (again, assuming that the reader can see past the human personifications of God). He affirms the absolute nature of what is good and teaches that evil exists only in relation to what is good; he challenges the reader to understand that God is inherently good and that we can only truly trust God if we believe Him to be good; he acknowledges the human tendency to create our image of God by looking at human qualities and assuming that God is simply the same but more so; he attempts to portray the loving relationships within the Trinity; and so on. For these areas I am grateful as they provided helpful correctives to many false understandings of God.
But the book also raised several concerns. Young covers many topics and time would fail me to discuss each of them. Instead, I will look at concerns with some of the book’s broader themes and will do so under several theological headings.
The Trinity
Young teaches that the Trinity exists entirely without hierarchy and that any kind of hierarchy is the result of sin. The Trinity, he says, “are in a circle of relationship, not a chain of command or ‘great chain of being’… Hierarchy would make no sense among us.” Now it’s possible that he is referring to a kind of dominance or grade or command structure that may well be foreign to the godhead. But a reading of the Bible will prove that hierarchy does, indeed, exist even where there is no sin. After all, the angels exist in a hierarchy and have done so since before the Fall. Also, in heaven there will be degrees of reward and there will be some who are appointed to special positions (such as the Apostles). And the Bible makes it clear that there is some kind of hierarchy even within the Trinity. The Spirit and the Son have submitted themselves to the Father. The task of the Spirit is to lead people to the Son who in turn brings glory to the Father. Never do we find the Father submitting to the Spirit or to the Son. Their hierarchy is perfect—without anger or malice or envy, but it is a hierarchy nonetheless.
There are other teachings about the Trinity that concerned me. For example, Papa says “I am truly human, in Jesus.” This simply cannot be true. God [the Father—a term that the author avoids] is not fully human in Jesus. This melds the two persons of God in a way that is simply unbiblical. Some of what Young teaches is novel and even possible, but without Scriptural support. For example, he teaches that the triune nature of God was an absolute necessity since without it God would be incapable of love. His reasoning is not perfectly clear but seems to be that if God did not have such a relationship “within himself” he would be unable to love. But this is not taught in the Bible.
Overall, I had to conclude that Young has an inadequate and often-unbiblical understanding of the Trinity. While granting that the Trinity is a very difficult topic to understand and one that we cannot know fully, there are several indications that he often blurs the distinct persons of the Trinity along with their roles and their unique attributes. Combined with his novel but unsupported conjectures, this is a serious concern.
Submission
Young uses the discussion about the Trinity as a bridge to a the subject of submission. Here he teaches that each member of the Trinity submits to the other. Jesus says, “That’s the beauty you see in my relationship with Abba and Sarayu. We are indeed submitted to one another and have always been so and will always be. Papa is as much submitted to me as I to him, or Sarayu to me, or Papa to her. Submission is not about authority and it is not obedience; it is all about relationships of love and respect. In fact, we are submitted to you in the same way.” Why would the God of the universe seek to be submitted to mere humans? “Because we want you to join us in our circle of relationship.” Genuine relationships, according to the author, must be marked by mutual submission. “As the crowning glory of Creation, you were made in our image, unencumbered by structure and free to simply ‘be’ in relationship with me and one another. If you had truly learned to regard each other’s concerns as significant as your own, there would be no need for hierarchy.” Submission, according to this book, must be mutual, so that husbands submit to wives while wives submit to husbands, and parents submit to children while children submit to parents. While the Bible does teach that we are to submit to one another, it also teaches that God has ordained some kinds of hierarchy. While a husband is to submit his desires to his wife, even to the point of sacrificing his life for her, he is never called to submit to her in an authoritative sense. Wives, though, are commanded to submit to their husbands, acknowledging that the husband is the head of the family. Similarly, all people are to submit to the God-given authorities and every person is responsible to submit to God.
This understanding of absolute equality not just in value (which the Bible affirms) but also in role and function (which the Bible does not affirm), leads to a strange idea about why God created Eve out of Adam. He teaches that it was crucial for man be created before woman, but with woman hidden inside man. Had this not happened, there could not have been a proper circle of relationship since otherwise man would always come from woman (through childbirth), allowing her to claim a dominant position. She came out of him and now all men come out of her. This allows total, absolute equality, says Young. I can think of absolutely no biblical proof for this and neither does the author offer any.
And so we see that Young uses The Shack to teach an unbiblical understanding of submission. And he uses this topic to bridge to another.
Free Will
Young’s understanding of free will seems to follow from submission. “I don’t want slaves to do my will,” says Jesus. “I want brothers and sisters who will share life with me.” Speaking in veiled terms about conversion or something like it, Jesus says, “We will come and live our life inside of you, so that you begin to see with our eyes, and hear with our ears, and touch with our hands, and think like we do. But, we will never force that union with you. If you want to do your thing, have at it. Time is on our side.” God, it seems, has already forgiven all humans for their sin and has willingly submitted himself to them, though only some people will choose relationship. He is fully reconciled to all human beings and simply waits for them to do their part. Never does Young clearly discuss the consequences that will face those who refuse to accept this offer of union.
Overall, Young presents a God who is unable or unwilling to break into history in any consequential way. He is sovereign at times, but certainly not so in conversion (a topic that receives only scant attention) and is limited by the free will choices of human beings. Scant attention is paid to God’s fore-ordination, the understanding that nothing happens without it somehow being part of His decree (even while God cannot be accused of being the author of evil). Papa explains to Mack, “There was no way to create freedom without a cost.” But nowhere in the Bible do we find that God is somehow made captive by human free will and that He has to allow things to proceed in order to maintain His own integrity as Creator. Always God is sovereign, even over the free will choices of men. Our inability to understand how this can be does not preclude us from the responsibility of believing it.
Forgiveness
Much of the story focuses on forgiveness. Mack has to learn to forgive first God (or at least to come to an intellectual understanding of why God was unable to intervene to save Missy) and then, at the book’s culmination, to forgive the murderer. I am adamantly opposed to the idea that we would ever need to forgive God for anything. However, because this teaching is seen only vaguely in the novel, I will pass over it for now and turn to another area of forgiveness—that of unconditional forgiveness.
Nowhere in Scripture will we find the idea that we can or should forgive an unrepentant person for this kind of crime. Rather, Scripture makes it clear that repentance must precede forgiveness. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness. This is true of God’s offer of forgiveness to us and, as we are to model this in our human relationships, must be true of how we offer forgiveness to others. So when, at the book’s climax, Mack cries out “I forgive you” to the murderer (who is not present and has not sought forgiveness) he cannot offer true forgiveness. Neither can true forgiveness exist where Mack is unable to pursue reconciliation with this man. Forgiveness makes no sense and means nothing if we require it in this way. It may make a person feel better about himself, but it cannot bring about true forgiveness and true reconciliation. And so Young teaches a therapeutic, inadequate and unbiblical understanding of forgiveness.
Scripture and Revelation
There are few doctrines more important to Christian living than this one—understanding how it is that God chooses to communicate with human beings. Though the Bible teaches that Scripture is the “norming norm,” many Christians give precedence to other supposed forms of revelation, and particularly promptings, leadings and “still, small voices.” Sure enough, such an emphasis is seen clearly in The Shack. How will we hear from God in day-to-day life (away from the miraculous shack)? “You will learn to hear my thoughts in yours,” says Sarayu. “Of course you will make mistakes; everybody makes mistakes, but you will begin to better recognize my voice as we continue to grow our relationship.” And where will we find the Spirit? “You might see me in a piece of art, or music, or silence, or through people, or in Creation, or in your joy and sorrow. My ability to communicate is limitless, living and transforming, and it will always be tuned to Papa’s goodness and love. And you will hear and see me in the Bible in fresh ways. Just don’t look for rules and principles; look for relationship—a way of coming to be with us.”
Beyond looking for new revelation, The Shack says little about how God has communicated or will continue to communicate with us in Scripture. There are a couple of times that it mentions the Bible, but never does it point to Scripture as a real authority or as the sufficient Word of God. “In seminary [Mac] had been taught that God had completely stopped any overt communication with moderns, preferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred Scripture, properly interpreted, of course. God’s voice had been reduced to paper, and even that paper had to be moderated and deciphered by the proper authorities and intellects… Nobody wanted God in a box, just in a book. Especially an expensive one bound in leather with gilt edges, or was that guilt edges?” Here we see Young pointing away from Scripture rather than towards it. Through Mack he scoffs at the idea that God has spoken authoritatively and sufficiently through the Bible. And if he points away from Scripture he points towards subjective promptings and leadings.
Though common, such teaching is dangerous and directly detracts from the sufficiency of Scripture. When we admit that God has not, in the Bible, said all that He needs to say to us, we open the doors for all manner of new revelation, much of which may contradict the Bible. What authority is there if not the Bible? Ultimately the issue of revelation is an issue of authority and too many Christians are willing to trust their own authority over the Bible’s. What authority does Young rely on as he brings teaching here in The Shack? Does he look to a higher authority or does he look mostly to himself? The reader can have no confidence that Young loves and respects God’s Word has He chose to give it to us in Scripture.
Salvation
The book contains surprisingly little teaching about salvation. When Young does discuss conversion, he places it firmly in the camp of relationship but also uses the stereotypical phrases such as “this is not a religion” and “Jesus isn’t a Christian.” Jesus apparently loves all people in exactly the same way, having judged them worthy of his love. Young also wades dangerously close to universalism saying that Jesus has no interest in making people into Christians. Rather, no matter what faith they come from, he wishes to “join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa.” He denies that all roads lead to him (since most roads lead nowhere) but says instead, “I will travel any road to find you.” Whether Young holds to universalism or not, and whether he believes that all faiths can lead a person to God, the book neither affirms nor refutes.
Conclusion
Many other topics receive less attention but also raise concerns. For example, Jesus comments on religion, politics and economics saying “They are the man-created trinity of errors that ravage the earth and deceives those I care about.” But Young offers no biblical proof that this is something Jesus would teach. In other places God seems to gloss over sin, judging certain sins almost inconsequential. And so it goes.
So where does all of this leave us? It is clear to me that The Shack is a mix of good and bad. Young teaches much that is of value and he teaches it in a slick and effective way. Sadly, though, there is much bad mixed in with the good. As we pursue his major theological thrusts we see that many of them wander away, by varying degrees, from what God tells us in Scripture.
Despite the great amount of poor theology, my greatest concern is probably this one: the book has a quietly subversive quality to it. Young seems set on undermining orthodoxy Christianity. For example, at one point Mack states that, despite years of seminary and years of being a Christian, most of the things taught to him at the shack have never occurred to him before. Later he says, “I understand what you’re saying. I did that for years after seminary. I had the right answers, sometimes, but I didn’t know you. This weekend, sharing life with you has been far more illuminating than any of those answers.”
Throughout the book there is this kind of subversive strain teaching that new and fresh revelation is much more relevant and important than the kind of knowledge we gain in sermons or seminaries or Scripture. Young’s readers seem to be picking up on this. Read this brief Amazon review as an example: “Wish I could take back all the years in seminary! The years the locusts ate???? Systematic theology was never this good. Shack will be read again and again. With relish. Shared with friends, family, and strangers. I can fly! It’s a gift. ‘Discipleship’ will never be lessons again.” Another reviewer warns that many Christians will find the book difficult to read because of their “modern” mindsets. “If one is coming from a strong, propositional and, perhaps, fundamentalist perspective to the Bible, this book certainly will be threatening.” Still another says “This book was so shocking to my “staid” Christianity but it was eye opening to my own thoughts about who I think God is.” At several points I felt as if the author was encouraging the reader to doubt what they know of Christianity—to deconstruct what they know of Christian theology—and to embrace something new. But the faith Young reconstructs is simply not the faith of the Bible.
Eugene Peterson says this book is as good and as important as The Pilgrim’s Progress. Well, it really is not. It is neither as good nor as original a story and it lacks the theological precision of Bunyan’s work. But really, this is a bit of a facile comparison. The Pilgrim’s Progress, after all, is allegory—a story that has a second distinct meaning that is partially hidden behind its literal meaning. The Shack is not meant to be allegory. Nor can The Shack quite be equated with a story like The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe where C.S. Lewis simply asked (and answered) this kind of question: “What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia, and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?” The Shack is in a different category than these more notable Christian works. It seeks to represent the members of the Trinity as they are (or as they could be) and to suggest through them what they might teach were they to appear to us in a similar situation. There is a sense of attempted or perceived reality in this story that is missing in the others. This story is meant to teach theology that Young really believes to be true. The story is a wrapper for the theology. In theory this is well and good; in practice the book is only as good as its theology. And in this case, the theology just is not good enough.
Because of the sheer volume of error and because of the importance of the doctrines reinvented by the author, I would encourage Christians, and especially young Christians, to decline this invitation to meet with God in The Shack. It is not worth reading for the story and certainly not worth reading for the theology.


Comments (72) »
1. Darryl
January 15, 2008
9:52 AM
For those who are in southern Ontario, Young is supposed to be in the Kitchener-Waterloo area in April (3-4). Looks like there will be a panel to discuss some of the theology behind the book.
2. Matt
January 15, 2008
9:56 AM
Sounds very much like the style of McLaren’s “A New Kind of Christian.”
3. Tim Challies
January 15, 2008
10:01 AM
Sounds very much like the style of McLaren’s “A New Kind of Christian.”
The McLaren influence is undeniable. Don’t tell me Young is channeling McLaren here when discussing religion, politics and economics: “They are the man-created trinity of errors that ravage the earth and deceives those I care about.””
4. Lisa Nunley
January 15, 2008
10:02 AM
I interviewed my husband and gave a very short review of this book with a conclusive warning: “The God of “The Shack” is not the God of The Bible.” Jon and I appreciate your reviews and have always been blessed to buy the books you recommend. Thank you for taking the time to do this. Though you get ample free books, you do not get paid for your time. This is obviously a ministry that blesses many.
5. ryan
January 15, 2008
11:10 AM
Tim really enjoyed the review. I read the book last week and came away with many of the same thoughts. The only point I would challenge you on is that forgiveness requires repentance. I think Christians are called to absolute forgiveness, there is no room for bitterness in our hearts, that is why forgiveness is as much about the one forgiving as the one who receives it.
It is also us saying that justice is in the hands of God and we need to move on. Forgiveness does not mean we forget and let a person wrong us again, but it does mean we extend grace and give forgiveness. You can see this most clearly in Jesus crying out on the Cross for God to forgive those who were murdering him. Even though these people were in no way seeking repentance in anyway.
6. Bibliomaniac
January 15, 2008
11:18 AM
On forgiveness requiring repentance:
“Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34).
Jesus forgave, though His enemies repented not.
Beyond that, thank you for the review. This is helpful.
7. Tim Challies
January 15, 2008
11:21 AM
The only point I would challenge you on is that forgiveness requires repentance.
I assumed this would come up and had planned on writing about this topic before writing the review. However, it just didn’t work out. I’ll try to cover this soon.
8. Tim Challies
January 15, 2008
11:53 AM
By the way, let’s try not to let the issue of conditional or unconditional forgiveness derail this thread. As I said, I’ll write on the topic soon and we can discuss it then!
9. Scott Eaton
January 15, 2008
11:57 AM
Mr. Challies:
You are simply wrong about forgiveness requiring repentance and that it must be followed by reconciliation. Forgiveness is the releasing of my rights to be angry about a situation. It is letting go of the offense. Forgiveness paves the way for reconciliation, but does not require it. Reconcilation, however, does require repentance. I have no plans to be reconciled to pedophiles or murderers. But I can forgive them.
If I practiced forgiveness as you describe, I would be a very miserable person.
SE
10. Chris Brauns
January 15, 2008
11:57 AM
Tim, thanks for this review. I think it is an important one (see http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/an-important-review-from-tim-challies/) …
As you would expect, I am sorely tempted to dive into the forgiveness discussion, but I think I will wait for your post… for now, I will point out that there is an important distinction between Jesus praying that someone would be forgiven and him actually forgiving (“this day you will be with me in paradise)…
See also the article I wrote about forgiveness after Virginia Tech: http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/2007/05/05/forgiveness-and-virginia-tech/
11. Tim Challies
January 15, 2008
12:04 PM
Again, let’s leave this discussion for the time being. I made a couple of slight amendments to my review to try to keep this from being something that really derails the review.
12. Lisa P.
January 15, 2008
12:04 PM
Thank you for this review. I don’t think I am particularly interested in reading it, but I know some who have read it and I can imagine many others I know will be drawn to it. I’m glad to be better informed for productive discussions concerning these issues of the Trinity, salvation, gender, submission, forgiveness, free will, and so on.
It seems that the main draw for people to this book is the portrayal of love and relationship between the main character and God. People long for that, and some must not be finding it somehow… I wonder what we, who do have that relationship, as well as a more sound doctrine and dependence on the authority of Scripture, can do to help our brothers and sisters… There are many Christians who have unimaginable hurts, yet remain bound by them - and then a book like this seems to reach them and “free” them.
For me, I’m so glad that my friend has found forgiveness and has been able to finally let go of bitterness that she has held for years. She attributes the book to bringing her to that place. I know I need to discuss the more difficult theological points with her. But, I also want to rejoice with her. I want to be careful that I not denigrate the “experience” that she truly feels is a “God-thing.” To be clear, I am still somewhat skeptical of what my friend has experienced, but I want to be supportive of her as well as continue to guide her to the Truth of Scripture. Thanks again for your time and efforts that are a blessing to us all!
13. Nicho
January 15, 2008
12:52 PM
Although I disagree with you on most of the points you have made in this review I respect the way you have taken a look at the book. I have read reviews that outright attempt to destroy the author’s character.
There are a couple thoughts I have that might (or might not) help with seeing where the author came from:
This book was never intended to be published. He wrote it for his kids to show his beliefs about who God is. He would never claim to be the authority of God in his writing, he is offering his opinions. Yes, a lot of the concepts could be deemed ‘dangerous’ but for me personally I found the book to be freeing.
I believe when the author was speaking about the ‘years in seminary’ he is not attempting to steer people away from Scripture, but to give them the opportunity to see Scripture with new eyes. You get ten people in a room to read the same verse and when you discuss it you will often get ten different ideas; of course there might be an underlying theme that everyone gets out of it, but there will be nuances that are different. That is why, for me, it is the ‘Living Word.’
In respect to the fact that he wrote this story for his children, I can guarantee you there is no subversive quality to the book. There is no underlying or ‘partially-hidden’ message telling people to undermine any institution.
I would recommend anyone who is having difficulty with certain ‘theological’ or ‘Biblically relevant’ issues to contact the author and begin a dialog with him. He loves discussions. But I would ask you to not attack him personally; he can take it, but it then becomes about quality of character and not about seeking knowledge and understanding. If you disagree with him disagree with him; if you agree with him agree with him. As you can tell from this book relationship is something that is very important to him, and he responds to people based out of that.
I do not want to put his email address on here without the permission of the author of this blog, but if you would give me permission Mr. Challies, I would love to offer you and everyone who reads your blog the opportunity to allow Mr. Young to share with you why he believes what he does.
14. Austin Storm
January 15, 2008
1:17 PM
Even if it was originally not intended for publication, it was published, so we can pass judgment on its literary and theological merits.
The discussions of hierarchy are most unfortunate. Radical egalitarianism is a very modern, very tired doctrine. As Christians we are kings and priests - how exciting and hierarchical is that? The Emergent folk should watch Pixar’s The Incredibles for a wonderful shot of anti-egalitarian common sense.
This book is like a Christian version of The Peaceful Warrior. I’m waiting for the pomo christian version of The Celestine Prophecy and Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Just wait - it’ll happen.
15. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
January 15, 2008
1:25 PM
He wrote it for his kids to show his beliefs about who God is
Then I pray his kids get their view of God from somewhere else, namely the Scriptures.
Also, you make a comment about not attacking him personally. I have yet to see any personal attacks here, only critiques of his theology,which are not personal attacks.
16. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
January 15, 2008
2:08 PM
My last remark was to Nicho, by the way.
17. Jerry
January 15, 2008
2:21 PM
Bible study is not a bunch of people sitting around saying “And what do you feel this verse is saying?”
Tim, Thanks for the review. You just saved me a bunch of time since I was contemplating picking this book up in order to see what all the fuss was about.
18. Nicho
January 15, 2008
3:40 PM
I was not saying that anyone on this blog was personally attacking him; I have just seen it on other blogs and websites. That is all.
And I am sorry you feel you need to ‘pass judgment’ on the author’s ‘literary and theological merits.’ I don’t believe we have the right to judge anyone. Opinions, yes, judgment, no.
Regarding the Bible study thought, ‘Bible study is not a bunch of people sitting around saying “And what do you feel this verse is saying?”’ I would have to disagree with you. God speaks to all of us differently through the Scripture. There are some unequivocal truths (and by that I mean no room for personal opinion or interpretation) such as the fact that Jesus came and died so we could have a path to the Father and not be condemned for all eternity. But there are ideas in the Bible that allow a person the ability to find what God is saying to them personally; speaking to them out of their needs.
I would hope that most of you wouldn’t just toss this book aside because of another person’s opinion of it. The best way to determine your own opinion is to experience it for yourself.
19. Lance
January 15, 2008
3:52 PM
Nicho:
It sounds as if you’re saying that interpretation of some Scriptures is relative, while others have no wiggle room at all (at least that’s my personal interpretation of what you’re saying).
Do you really mean that “application” is relative, or do you indeed believe that different interpretations of certain passages can all be true, regardless what the original author/Author intended?
20. Tim Challies
January 15, 2008
4:02 PM
I don’t believe we have the right to judge anyone. Opinions, yes, judgment, no.
In writing these sentences you are passing judgment on my ability to pass judgment. Uh oh. Or is it just your opinion that I can only give opinions?
21. Nicho
January 15, 2008
4:05 PM
I see what you are saying:
I am not talking about relativity, but what we get out of it personally. Obviously the Scripture is the Word of God in written form. And we have those truths of John 3:16 that are indelible.
It is hard for me to put into words, but I guess what I am trying to say is: Say you go to a motivational seminar and you listen to the speaker and after it is over you get together with a couple friends who were also there. You hang onto a certain bit of information that was spoken and discuss it. And you all have opinions about what was meant. (I guess interpretation as far as relativity is concerned was a poor way for me to state it) There is, of course, the underlying truth about what the ‘author’ was saying, but other truths, specific to an individual, reveal themselves. One person may see it where another person doesn’t. It is more implicit than explicit. The explicit is the text that you are reading, the implicit is the subtext that you personally see when reading the text.
I hope that makes sense. I tend to jumble words sometimes and the connections I make in my brain don’t always get translated out onto the page.
In summary (ha): I would say that the Bible is explicit and implicit. There are the words on the page and then there are the words that God speaks to us through those words.
22. ,Jamaica Rasta friend
January 15, 2008
4:06 PM
Related: For Christians, an interesting perspective on Christianity in Jamaica: Video:
Messian Dread ,Jamaica Rasta Mutabaruka discuss Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppoyTEZejUo
23. Nicho
January 15, 2008
4:09 PM
The judgment thing was responding to Austin’s response where he said, “it was published, so we can pass judgment on its literary and theological merits.”
What you said, Mr. Challies, I did not feel was judgment at all. I felt it was your opinion of what you saw when you read the book.
I was just responding to Austin.
24. Ken Davis
January 15, 2008
5:35 PM
Tim, Thanks for this. I have been wondering about this book ever since I read Peterson’s comments re: Pilgrim’s Progress. The quotes from the book are very revealing and show that whatever its strengths are it doesn’t seem to be anything by Bunyan. I think it is very dangerous to ever have God say things that don’t have chapter and verse attached to them, especially in a piece of fiction.
25. Chuck Thomas
January 15, 2008
6:16 PM
Believe I’ll pass on reading the book and wait for the movie version of The Shack. Imagine the casting possibilities:
Oprah Winfrey in the role of “Papa” (or would they be guilty of type-casting?)
David Schwimmer playing Jesus (with his comedic talent the spilled sauce scene you described Tim should be hilarious)
Sandra Oh in the role of Sarayu (from Canada, Tim) (Had considered Yoko Ono, but the age thing could be a bit of a problem.)
As Mack…how about Tony Jones in his “debut performance.”
26. Reid
January 15, 2008
6:36 PM
Tim, I am waiting on the audio book to “read this” but several people have been asking about it recently. One friend in particular read it and was concerned about the teaching that the Father suffered at the crucifixion. Can you comment on your impressions of Papa suffering with Jesus on the Cross. The early church rejected this as the error of patripassianism, Tertullian in particular spoke against this. I don’t see the Bible teaching that the Father suffered on the cross with Jesus. Particularly in light of the teaching of Isaiah 53 and Acts which seem to teach that it was the will of God to have the Son suffer and the willful act of the Son to give his life.
One friend even commented that the Father, suffered emotionally on the cross - yet I don’t see where this is taught in the Scriptures either…I just don’t see the Father feeling terrible about that which he ordained for the redemption of people from sin, death and hell.
Did you find this teaching in the Shack?
27. dan macdonald
January 15, 2008
7:23 PM
Tim,
Thanks for the thorough yet irenic review. The most intriguing aspect of this is the endorsement by Peterson. I wonder if he read it.
Dan MacDonald
28. Jerry
January 15, 2008
8:08 PM
Nicho,
What criteria do you use to distinguish between those Scriptures that are “unequivocal truth” and those that are open to subjective interpretation?
Would you agree with me that portraying God the Father as a “large and oh-so-stereotypical matronly African-American woman” named “Papa” (taken from Tim’s review) is a violation of the 2nd Commandment, or is this portrayal of God acceptable based upon a subjective interpretation of the Decalogue?
29. Larry
January 15, 2008
8:11 PM
Tim…excellent review. So many people today obtain their theology from books like this which play to feelings and emotions rather than from the Truth of the scriptures. It’s important when pop phenomenons like this explode on the scene that Christians are careful to take a scriptural approach to analyzing them. I think you’ve done that here and hope that many of the fans of this book will have a chance to read it.
I always think about the verse that cautions us to be careful when the whole world speaks well of us when I see things like this. Chances are if the secular world loves a book this much (which must be the case if its among the top sellers on Amazon) then the theology is seriously flawed. True gospel teaching has never received the praise of the masses.
I too had some questions about your comments on forgiveness so I look forward to you fleshing out that discussion as well!
30. Jonathan Brink
January 15, 2008
9:02 PM
Tim,
What I hear you saying is that God can’t, doesn’t or won’t really speak to people today in the here and now. And that any revelation we get should give us real concern if it is not exclusively written as it is in the Bible, including chapter and verse. Is this what you are saying, or something else? Please provide insight.
31. Jeffrey Brannen
January 15, 2008
10:42 PM
Tim - Donal Macleod in his book on the Trinity - “Shared Life: The Trinity and the Fellowship of God’s People” places significant weight on the issue of God necessarily dwelling as Trinity because of the statement that “God is love.”
“[T]he doctrine of the Trinity helps us to understand what John meant when he wrote, ‘God is love’. Suppose God were not triune. Suppose he had no Son and no Holy Spirit. Whom, then, did he love? How could he be love if there were none to love? We cannot say that he was love because his heart weant out towards teh world. The world is only of yesterday, God is eternal. Does that mean that until yesterday (when he created the world) God could not be love? […] Once we see that God is triune, everything is much clearer. The Father was never lonely. He never lacked someone to love because from the beginning he had the fellowship of the Son and the Spirit.”
Anywho, based on that, I’m not certain I would object to the idea that God being love makes the Trinity necessary.
32. Morris Brooks
January 15, 2008
11:03 PM
Excellent review, both in content and spirit, and needed. This book will be coming soon to an Emergent/Seeker church near you for a group or discipleship group.
33. Kevin
January 16, 2008
1:08 AM
My spidey sense started tingling when I read these words…
Once you sever your theology from God’s inscripturated revelation of Himself, you have a god of your own imagination. That’s what we have in The Shack.I’m still reading it, and am almost done. However, I have to agree whole-heartedly with Tim’s review so far, especially as it relates to the Trinity.
34. Frank Turk
January 16, 2008
6:23 AM
Tim —
First, good on ya — good review.
Second, let me say that Peterson and his friends in the Emergent church have to make up their minds about a few things, but particularly about whether or not the reformation was a valuable correction of the expression of the Christian faith.
It seems to me that calling this book “as important” as Pilgrim’s Progress is schizophrenic, intellectually — because this book denies almost every major truth affirmed by Bunyan’s work.
But here we have the Emerg* folks again wanting to say, “we’re just as important and the reformation was” but their message is frankly counter-reformational. Was the reformation important? If it was, can we deny its foundations and still be serious people? If we deny its foundations, can we say it was “important” at all — aren’t we really saying it was just wrong?
Sheesh. DO NOT read the Shack unless you are reading it to help others get over their infatuation with it. It is biblically empty, and it is not even that gripping as literature.
35. Pete
January 16, 2008
6:29 AM
Nicho, It may be that you are thinking of “application” of a message/seminar and application of scritpure to our lives, as opposed to what was “meant by the speaker” when discussing in a group. The applciation of scripture to our lives may be different for two people, dependant upon their circumstances at the time; but the meaning, intention and interpretation of the scriptures is the same for all as intended by the original author. Just a thought.
36. Frank Turk
January 16, 2008
7:01 AM
A few words on the conditions of forgiveness.
37. Larry
January 16, 2008
8:54 AM
Another thing that struck me about this is that every place in scripture where men have an up close encounter with God they are terrified and are acutely aware of their unworthiness to stand before Him. Only in 21st century American Christian pop-fiction is a face to face encounter with the God of the universe portrayed the way William P. Young has done it here.
38. RANDY HURST
January 16, 2008
11:52 AM
I’ve resolved to read fewer books this year. I’m backlogged anyway. I’m just going to read your fine reviews Dr. Tim (my own imaginary honorary entitlement - now maybe you can get the respect you deserve), which I find in many cases better written that the books themselves. Plus your keen intellect picks up on subtle theological incongruities that I would tend to miss or dismiss. Thanks for making my life easier on ‘08.
As I mentioned some months ago, I am still awaiting your review of “”The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment”. I’ve already received it, but dare not read it w/o your “green light”. That would be fun to read. I’m following your blog tour and that almost suffices, but a full blown review would be even more helpful. [Actually I am reading DSD much like a devotional every day, works well for me]. Forgive me for the little tongue in cheek fib, I repent, really… if I have to.
39. Christina
January 16, 2008
12:00 PM
“Oprah plays God” I’ve read it all. Now I can die in peace.
Thanks for this Tim, it’s a great review.
40. Dave M
January 16, 2008
12:15 PM
I tend to disagree with most of the theological points made in the review above. What should be noted is that Young approaches the book with what sounds like a very Eastern Orthodox understanding of the Trinity (see The Trinity and the Kingdom, by Jurgen Moltmann), while the reviewer above approaches from an Augustinian and probably Calvinist perspective of the Trinity. If you are a Calvinist, that’s fine, and you can disagree with his theology. But it is something bordering on arrogance to say that your Augustinian-hierarchical model of the Trinity is the only “biblical” model. I can build a whole laundry list of biblical proof-texts supporting an opposing viewpoint and then baptize my viewpoint as the “biblical model” but I won’t. As far as I perceive reality, the model of the Trinity portrayed by Young makes a lot of sense, both with my understanding of Scripture and Tradition, and with the world I live in.
Beside the hierarchical Trinity, the reviewer above also espouses models of free will and gender equality/roles that I, as a Wesleyan Pentecostal, strongly disagree with. It would probably be more proper to say that the reviewer disagrees with Young’s underlying theology, rather than to call Young and all who see things from his side of the fence “biblically empty” as one commenter above does. Again, you can build the case biblically for either viewpoint; it’s possible and in fact probable that your interpretation of the Bible is different than mine, but there are probably a lot of intelligent people who interpret the Bible differently from me. This may mean I disagree with them, or with their biblical interpretation, but I can’t say that their claims are entirely without biblical or theological substance.
41. Kevin
January 16, 2008
12:43 PM
I can build a whole laundry list of biblical proof-texts supporting an opposing viewpoint and then baptize my viewpoint as the “biblical model” but I won’t. As far as I perceive reality, the model of the Trinity portrayed by Young makes a lot of sense, both with my understanding of Scripture and Tradition, and with the world I live in.
First, I’d like to see your laundry list…Second, that’s just the issue: Young has severed the Trinity from Scripture. If there’s a different interpretation, judge the interpretation based on a proper hermaneutic. The mistake is chunking orthodoxy for clever imagination.
42. Jon
January 16, 2008
2:48 PM
just a thought, not that i want to claim authority or anything here, and i know a ton of people have already done that.
what’s with our idea of specific theology and finite bounds on what God is? have we finally cornered the truth and completely ruled any perception of William P. Young’s beliefs as beyond our limitations?
please, someone please explain to me when we discovered the exact identity and reality of God. i for one see myself searching and finding Him anew everyday. and as far as my small pithy faith is concerned, God is far beyond my comprehension.
so bring on all of our different ideas and see what comes of it. but don’t think this means that we have it all figured out.
43. Ken
January 16, 2008
3:17 PM
I propose that Mr. Young’s next literary project should be titled “The Shaq” and explore what happens to Mack Phillips when he is overcome by heat and encounters a mystical basketball arena in southern Florida…
I even have a casting idea for the role of the large African-American character!
44. Tyler
January 16, 2008
5:18 PM
We can split hairs on the theology in this book but the question is, did God get bigger in my life? Did he capture more of my heart because of this book? In my life He did, I wept, it spurned prayer and some healing. It broke me. Though this is one man’s opinion and inturpretation there is a message that screams above everything, Relationship. In my view he not talking about the divorcing dogma but calling to the missing peice of relationship.
45. R Powers
January 17, 2008
12:31 AM
Thank you for giving good review of this book AND the theology within it. Many are calling to themselves teachers who “tickle their ears” and follow the “wisdom of man” in these times. It is very encouraging to find that we are not alone in our departure from the “christian norm” of the times, and in our desire to compare every teaching to the truth of the Word.
RP
46. Lisa
January 17, 2008
2:09 AM
Tim, could you please reference your biblical principles with chapter & verse? It would be helpful for myself as well as for the people I talk to about this book. It’s not good enough to just say “in the Bible” or “the Bible says”. If it really does “say”, then please show us where. Thank-you for a well-written and thought out review on, what I found to be, a very disturbing book. Disturbing that so many Christians are embracing it whole-heartedly!!! Where have all the Bereans gone?
47. Rick
January 17, 2008
10:36 PM
You made your case very well. What you failed to do is use this opportunity to encourage others to see God as three PERSONS. And as three person, they relate, but perfectly. Without using direct comments about it, I think the author shows how much we cannot see and know what it means to relate perfectly, the reality of love.
Anyone who reads this book should understand it is not Scripture anymore than any book written by a man. But it does open us up to considering (within a clear Biblical framework) that maybe, we are so steeped in our sinful condition that we don’t see God as He is.
Any by the way, we have have all our Theological Ts crossed and Is dotted and miss knowing deeply the One who loves us.
48. David Castor
January 18, 2008
9:50 AM
What should be noted is that Young approaches the book with what sounds like a very Eastern Orthodox understanding of the Trinity (see The Trinity and the Kingdom, by Jurgen Moltmann), while the reviewer above approaches from an Augustinian and probably Calvinist perspective of the Trinity.
Which is precisely the point, Dave M. As long as a book is written passably, Challies will like it if it affirms what he already believes and dislike it if it challenges his belief system. He could save a lot of time simply by saying “This book wasn’t Calvinist - therefore I didn’t like it.”
I also found your comments regarding the Trinity interesting. I must admit that it is amusing to see Calvinists appeal to a heirarchical Trinity for no other reason than to undergird their belief on gender roles, notwithstanding the fact that there is virtually no Early Church Father who agrees with their position.
49. Lisa Nunley
January 18, 2008
1:04 PM
I find it interesting that not judging others is brought up here. Isn’t being discerning about judging… righteously judging? some scriptures tell us we must make judgments and discern, and others warn us not to judge.
To me, this review goes beyond mere opinion.
We are to hear the Word of God and act upon it so our house can be built upon a rock vs. hearing and not acting making our house built upon sand. The fruits by which we as Christians are known have nothing to do with our personalities or how many people agree with what we condone or teach or affirm. No. Our fruits as Christians has to do with adhering to God’s Word… hearing and acting upon it. That takes discernment… rightly dividing the Word of Truth. An uncompromising adherence to sound doctrine. A discerning judgment not based on mere opinion or presumption that goes outside the boundary of God’s Holy Word.
“The Shack” has a lot of presumptuous opinions about who God is and not much adherence to who God has revealed Himself to be in His Holy Word. What this review of “The Shack” has accomplished is bringing to light righteous and discerning judgment based on Scriptural Truth. Yes it contains opinion. But opinion based on Scriptural truth.
Challies wrote: Overall, I had to conclude that Young has an inadequate and often-unbiblical understanding of the Trinity. While granting that the Trinity is a very difficult topic to understand and one that we cannot know fully, there are several indications that he often blurs the distinct persons of the Trinity along with their roles and their unique attributes. Combined with his novel but unsupported conjectures, this is a serious concern. If you read the reviews on Amazon, you will note some people saying that they learned more about God and the trinity in “The Shack” then from any other source… (including the Bible???) One reviewer wrote, This book will seriously mess with your theology — and you will be GLAD. (Ummmm…. no) And another Wish I could take back all the years in seminary! The years the locusts ate???? Systematic theology was never this good. And The Lord has His fingerprints inside this book for you to find and be transformed. This is not only a GREAT book; a must read; but an experience that will alter the way you look at life and God forever.
In a conversation with a friend that sees no harm in the book and doesn’t think people will base their theology on a fiction book… I say read the reviews and shudder.
50. bill winn
January 20, 2008
10:33 AM
The Shack is wonderful and when we shall have removed the lens of St. Augustine’s Greek philosophical legalism we will see and read the written revelation about Who is the Triune God and see that the Shack comes mighty close!
Go to perichoresis.org and read all you can. Go buy The Great Dance by Dr. C. Baxter Kruger, read T.F. Torrance and Karl Barth. Read Athanasius: On the Incarnation of the Word of God, Read George MacDonald and Robert F. Capon. The early Church knew of the Homoousias to Patre and most of modern Christians hear that concept and say “huh, what?” We see the Father as a legal judge and have no knowledge of krino v/s krisis.
The Western Christian Church has a long way to go but praise God the Trinity we are on our way this book is but a further indication of our eventual return to a Christology that is not so weak and anemic as our current one. We are coming to see the Cosmic Christ. Light of the KOSMOS not just the Church or America.
51. Gerry
January 20, 2008
2:00 PM
This review is by a man with opinions based on his paradigms just as William P. Young is a man who wrote according to a paradigm. Lets not get so wrapped up in ourselves and allow the Spirit of God to unwrap it all - or dont you trust His Spirit? Why is it that Christians get so up in arms about things like this - eg. the davinci code, jesus christ superstar, the secret - when in the big picture, regardless of how it looks, these events are nothing when compared to who God is and how He chooses to work in our lives! Weep at the injustice, get angry at senseless violence, help the needy - but dont kick at people because they see things differently then you!
52. Gerry
January 20, 2008
2:02 PM
This review is by a man with opinions based on his paradigms just as William P. Young is a man who wrote according to a paradigm. Lets not get so wrapped up in ourselves and allow the Spirit of God to unwrap it all - or dont you trust His Spirit? Why is it that Christians get so up in arms about things like this - eg. the davinci code, jesus christ superstar, the secret - when in the big picture, regardless of how it looks, these events are nothing when compared to who God is and how He chooses to work in our lives! Weep at the injustice, get angry at senseless violence, help the needy - but dont kick at people because they see things differently then you!
53. Lisa Nunley
January 22, 2008
12:57 PM
Gerry wrote:This review is by a man with opinions based on his paradigms just as William P. Young is a man who wrote according to a paradigm. My response: More precisely this is a review based on proven Biblical principles with a discerning Scripturally-based viewpoint while “The Shack” is based on presumptions about who God is without much adherence to who God has revealed Himself to be in His Holy Word.
Gerry wrote: Lets not get so wrapped up in ourselves and allow the Spirit of God to unwrap it all - or don’t you trust His Spirit? My Response: I can’t even grasp why you would come to that conclusion. Are we not supposed to encourage one another as Christians to think Biblically about all things? Things we read, things we say, do, the way we live?
Gerry wrote: Why is it that Christians get so up in arms about things like this - eg. the davinci code, jesus christ superstar, the secret - when in the big picture, regardless of how it looks, these events are nothing when compared to who God is and how He chooses to work in our lives! My response: Because when we sit back and do and say nothing and do not get involved in the world around us and take a stand for Truth then things like genocide and selective abortion become “the norm”… God is sovereign… yes… and He uses people to accomplish His purposes… so let us praise God that He actually chooses to use us at all, which takes getting wrapped up in bringing glory to God for His Name’s sake.
Gerry wrote: Weep at the injustice, get angry at senseless violence, help the needy - but dont kick at people because they see things differently then you! My Response: There is such weeping and righteous anger for those things. But ya know what, God cares about the seemingly little things too… like standing for Truth. He abhors all sin to the same degree because sin is sin. He abhors pride and murder, an adulterous heart, a little white lie, as much as He abhors the twisting of His Truth… the adding to and taking away of His Truth… the turning of our heads when we see a friend in sin, a widow in need, a hungry orphan… This is not about kicking anyone because they see things differently. It is about standing up for God’s knowable, applicable, unchanging Truth.
…pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. I TIm 6: 11,12
Let us not be found idle or lazy, but let us finish the work given us to do… including steadfastness in His Truth as we discern and hold fast to sound doctrine. Why would we lay aside God’s Word in exchange for an almost, not quite, man-twisted version of truth? Even if it is posing as a non-threatening work of fiction?
“…there must be self-denial and suspicion of ourselves, and submission to the authority of Christ Jesus, before we can heartily receive all the truths of the gospel, therefore we are in great danger of rejecting the truth. And whatever opinions and thoughts of men are not according to the law of God, and warranted by it, the believer disclaims and abhors. Those who are led away by error, fall from their own steadfastness. And that we may avoid being led away, we must seek to grow in all grace, in faith, and virtue, and knowledge. Labour to know Christ more clearly, and more fully; to know him so as to be more like him, and to love him better. This is the knowledge of Christ, which the apostle Paul reached after, and desired to attain; and those who taste this effect of the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, will, upon receiving such grace from him, give thanks and praise him, and join in ascribing glory to him now, in the full assurance of doing the same hereafter, for ever.”-MH
54. Damon
January 23, 2008
11:20 PM
I think it’s humorous that those who didn’t care for Mr. Challies review have automatically described it as attacking someone or being unfairly critical.
Let me, in answer, just refer those of you putting that message out there to Revelation 2:2, which says “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.”
While Mr. Young may not consider himself an apostle, the definition of apostle is “messenger and ambassador”, which I think exactly fits Mr. Young and his book/message. With that in mind, if he chooses to put out a book that is being hyped so heavily, in large part by himself, then it is only fair that the group whose message it is being associated with be given a chance to test the integrity of his message. If it is found lacking, then no excuse should be made by him or for him.
55. Jim
January 24, 2008
2:49 AM
I appreciate Mr. Challies’ review. It is basically right on, although perhaps influenced too heavily by Reformed views re. hierarchy, etc. Many things in Paul’s book are worthy of challenge but are not as serious as the pervasive universalism embedded in it. This belief affects what he writes about God, salvation, the destiny of the wicked including fallen angels and Satan, the person of Christ and the meaning of his death, etc, etc. I’ve known Paul Y for several years, and have read and responded to his extensive defense of universal reconciliation ranging over a hundred pages that he made in 2004. I did not want initially to read this book but finally yielded to pressure to do so when so many were praising it so much. I was surprised by the subtle but extensive espousal of universalism. I’m now finishing an extensive review with the theology as my focus (which is my area of expertise). It is perceptive to charactize Paul’s fiction as subversive; it is, and Paul has lived his Christian life and written to embody the convictions and beliefs embedded in this book, esp. his universalism. As he says in his unpublished paper, this belief effects every area of his perspective, several areas of theology. Thus I agree with Mr. Challies’ final opinion that it is not worthy to read in light of its extensive embracing of aberrant beliefs and practices. Jim
56. Joel
January 24, 2008
3:25 PM
Jim, could you please publish a link to your review of the book in light of the universalism? I would be most interested in reading that. Thank you.
57. Ruth
January 24, 2008
6:12 PM
Just a helpful site for those of you not sure why the Universalism talk even matters:
[“Universalism is the teaching that through the atonement of Jesus, every person who ever lived will ultimately be saved. It is a relatively small movement in America. But this error can have some serious ramifications. Does the Bible teach that everyone who has ever lived will be saved? No. It doesn’t. Find out why here. “Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven.”
“Bible based, non-Christian cults are those groups that claim to be Christian, use the Bible, yet have redefined God, Jesus, and the gospel sufficiently to make salvation of no effect. Part of CARM’s purpose is to refute error and teach the truth so that people will not go to hell. Universalism is definately an error that needs to be addressed.”] http://www.carm.org/uni/uniandcults.htm
If you read his work, shouldn’t you know what the author believes?
Christians be weary: Whatever happened to “don’t believe everything you read.”
58. Ruth
January 24, 2008
6:17 PM
in case you go straight to the other site, try this as well:
http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm
59. allen
January 25, 2008
3:24 AM
This is an interesting, albeit very predictable review . Biased, although respectfully stated. A few counter thoughts, as a shepherd who serves within a conservative, evangelical denomination, in a church that is slowly beginning to break through the fog of self-righteousness, to see and experience the lavish love and abundant grace of the Father.
First, I read it and loved it, although I didn’t find it to be perfect (nor will anything I create be perfect, including this review). The Shack is clearly a fictional account that purposefully poked at the edges of the boundaries of what we know about the Father, Son and Spirit. It’s not a systematic theology. And by the way, we don’t know as much about the Trinity as we think we do. Further, you won’t actually find the word “Trinity” in scripture. It’s a man-derived word to describe a holy revelation of a God who has chosen to make Himself known to mankind, who cannot fully grasp who He is. There is much mystery in the Trinity.
My main response to the review is this. It appears that the sincere reviewer missed the primary point of this fictional account, which is the invitation to intimacy with a God who lavishes love on Himself and His children, and who loves to heal our wounded souls if we will trust Him enough to let him do that.
Of course if your theology precludes God speaking through anything other than His Word - or if you believe that we still live under the Law in some way - then intimacy with God is automatically viewed as fiction. I’m still trying to find the version of God’s Word, where God has permanently ceased speaking directly to His followers. In spite of extensive study for years, I have yet to find the passage of scripture that says the written Word of God is the last thing He had to say. What I do find is that if and when God does speak to us He will never contradict His Word - Spirit and truth are never de-coupled.
I think that is some of the author’s point - and some of his motivation for pushing some buttons. This review is a prime example.
Submission? Jesus is God. Jesus submitted to man by serving Him (The son of man came to serve, not be served…). The Trinity does submit to each other in love. God is humble, even though He is also all-powerful. We struggle with that concept because if we had God’s power we wouldn’t be humble. When we live from the Law we cannot reconcile power, authority and submission.
God taking on the form of a woman? The author makes the point very clearly that God has no gender. This is a literary device that reveals the author’s insight into the impact of Mac’s father wound. Mac struggles with trusting God - and thus with intimacy with God - and intimacy with men in general due to his father’s abuse. A matronly mother figure is a connecting point for Mac’s wounded soul. Again, a literary device.
Funny how we have no problem seeing God as a judge or a lion or a dove (imagery from the Word), or a man in the flesh (Jesus) or a stranger visiting Abraham, and yet we can’t imagine Him representing Himself in the temporary form of a mother, if He chose to do so.
REVIEWER QUOTE: There are other teachings about the Trinity that concerned me. For example, Papa says “I am truly human, in Jesus.” This simply cannot be true. God [the Father—a term that the author avoids] is not fully human in Jesus.
Not a fair statement….a twisting of words. The author never says that Papa is “fully human”. He says that He is “truly human - in Jesus”. It appears to me that He is making the statement that the Father shared the human experience at some level through His union with His Son, Christ. As to him not using the word “Father” – not accurate. He just used a more intimate form of the word - “Papa”. ….I think Young did that on purpose as sort of an intimacy litmus test. Do we think of God as “Father” only or also as “Abba” or “Papa”? Do we think of ourselves as His three-year old child coming to see “Abba”? Do we think of Him running to us to embrace us (The Father of the prodigal –and somehow we made that story about the prodigal, not the Father)…. For most of us, no. We are more comfortable seeing God as a judge - up there in heaven somewhere, not actively living in us.
As to Christ dying for the sins of all mankind (which is NOT universalism), let’s let the Word speak for itself.
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. -1 John 2:2
18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. - 2 Cor 5
Christ bore all our sins, those of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Yet salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8), and the forgiveness and Life God offers is rejected by the many. God initiates by inviting all men. We respond by receiving - which is only through the faith He gives us. So free will, or not, it is not the will of God that any should perish (1 Peter 3:9 ) and yet many do - so there is the mystery that you can’t explain and neither can I. Regardless, the Bible IS clear that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of all the world.
Young also does not avoid the topic of hell in the book - and he makes it very clear that not all roads lead to Jesus. You have to want him to be a universalist to get that out of the book, although it is clear that He did not focus on salvation in the book. This is a book about a child of God struggling to experience intimacy with God (look up the Greek term ginosko used multiple times by Paul writing about “knowing” God), not a book about a man receiving the gift of salvation.
and to know (ginosko – intimate knowing) the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. – Eph 3:19
that I may know (ginosko) Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; - Philippians 3:10
REVIEWER QUOTE: Overall, Young presents a God who is unable or unwilling to break into history in any consequential way.
Not an accurate review of the book at all. Young makes the point repeatedly that God often chooses to limit His power or intervention, not that He is powerless or uninvolved. Further, He does intervene in history - in the book itself. The author is making the point that God is not absent even when extreme evil is being committed - and that God is not the author of evil.
REVIEWER’S NOTE: “In seminary [Mac] had been taught that God had completely stopped any overt communication with moderns, preferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred Scripture, properly interpreted, of course…..Though common, such teaching is dangerous and directly detracts from the sufficiency of Scripture. When we admit that God has not, in the Bible, said all that He needs to say to us, we open the doors for all manner of new revelation, much of which may contradict the Bible.
Again, the great irony of this review is that scripture itself tells us that God speaks subjectively to His children, when He chooses to do so. The reviewer is contradicting scripture itself when he states or implies that God no longer speaks to His children through His Spirit, and actually seems to scoff at the biblical concept of a “still, small voice.” I never cease to be amazed….Again, let’s let scripture speak for itself.
“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. - John 10:16
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; - John 10:10
’ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’ - Rev 2:7
’ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Rev 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:22
19’Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20’Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. - Rev 3 (by the way, this passage is written to believers, not unbelievers - most people use it inappropriately as an evangelistic text)..
Obviously, from these few samples of New Testament scripture, God expects His children to listen to His voice, and to understand it in light of His Word.
What is the barrier to hearing God and knowing Him intimately? Fear. We perpetually hear the word “dangerous” used when we talk about a God who still whispers to the hearts and minds of His children. Yes, there are other voices - but is not sovereign God powerful enough to speak more clearly and to make Himself known to His children over the other voices? Again, I never cease to be amazed at this bizarre position taken by so many “biblical” people. Yes, there is danger of subjective revelation being abused and mis-used if we do not know the Word of God, or if we are misled by other voices. It’s also dangerous to drive our car to work but we do it anyway because it’s valuable. Listening to God is an absolutely vital part of His invitation to walk in Spirit and Truth. The Spirit speaks to God’s children, when He chooses. The Word of God never says that God ceased to speak once the canon was completed! That is an opinion of man, based on a very shaky interpretation of a very vague passage in 1 Cor.
Paul identifies this struggle, and he quotes an Isaiah passage that appears in every gospel as well as in Acts.
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’ - Acts 28:27
The modern church does not hear God anymore, nor do we understand healing of the soul. Young is making the point in this book that the same Jesus of Revelation 3 will come and sit down and “dine with us” - one of the most intimate things you could do in 1st century Jewish culture. He is also making the point throught the book that God will heal our souls, which the Psalmist reminds us are wounded by sin.
For I am afflicted and needy, And my heart is wounded within me. -Psalm 109:22
He heals the brokenhearted And binds up their wounds. -Psalm 147:3
As for me, I said, “O LORD, be gracious to me; Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You.” - Psalm 41:4
By the way, Jesus DID teach that politics and religion have ravaged the earth and deceived mankind. Jesus constantly preserved His strongest words for the religious crowds. Jesus did not come to bring us religion, but Life. Religion is man’s substitute for walking intimately with the Holy Creator of the universe. If that offends you, then again I gently invite you to go back to God’s Word and re-examine the gospels.
Here’s a quote directly from Jesus to the religious people, and it is one to which my biblically vocal generation should pay careful notice.
39”You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. -John 5
Final question. If you look around the Church in America, what is the fruit of Orthodox Christianity? Divorce rates as high or higher than “the world”. Pastors continually falling into immorality. Youth leaving the church after high school at ever increasing rates. Soaring addiction rates (alcohol, drugs, pornography, shopping, career success). An almost total absence of generosity. Pastoral divorce rates ranking in the top 5 of all professions. Materialism beyond description. An almost total absence of compassion or interest in the poor. An obsession with managing sin, but so little capacity to do so. Much Bible thumping, but little true understanding of the character of God. And so on the list goes… This is intended to be a statement of reality, not an attack on the Chuch.
Something is broken in the Church, friends. Maybe Orthodox Christianity NEEDS to be challenged and re-examined. Not about what is truth, but about who is Truth? Maybe we are teaching people to know the truth, but are not leading them to know the Way, the Truth and the Life. I think that’s what The Shack was after - and I pray to God that millions of people read it and find themselves unsettled enough to dig into God’s Word and discover for themselves a holy Abba whose love for His children is overwhelming and lavish and whose grace seems absolutely foolish in its abundance.
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. - 1 John 3:1
Grace and peace,
Allen
60. bea
January 25, 2008
5:37 AM
allan,
you didn’t leave a way of contact so i hope you check back. i have not yet read ‘the shack’ and have been following this discussion since reading tim’s review. your words brought so much grace and life to the conversation. until reading your words i felt fearful about reading ‘the shack’ (not a very Godly way to feel, obviously!) and now I feel free to read it - you reminded me of the security we have in the Way, the Truth and the Life in our lives and that the Spirit will continue to teach and speak and correct where necessary, under His wonderful cloak of grace and love.
Many blessings upon you, your family and your tribe as you walk out in this wonderful anointing that seemed to glow out of your words on my screen.
lovelovelove
bea
ps. time, if you are able, could you email this response to allan. many thanks.
61. bea
January 25, 2008
5:38 AM
allan,
you didn’t leave a way of contact so i hope you check back. i have not yet read ‘the shack’ and have been following this discussion since reading tim’s review. your words brought so much grace and life to the conversation. until reading your words i felt fearful about reading ‘the shack’ (not a very Godly way to feel, obviously!) and now I feel free to read it - you reminded me of the security we have in the Way, the Truth and the Life in our lives and that the Spirit will continue to teach and speak and correct where necessary, under His wonderful cloak of grace and love.
Many blessings upon you, your family and your tribe as you walk out in this wonderful anointing that seemed to glow out of your words on my screen.
bea
ps. tim, if you are able, could you email this response to allan. many thanks.
62. bea
January 25, 2008
5:40 AM
tim - apologies for double posting - i felt it important to spell your name right!!
63. Brian @ voiceofthesheep
January 25, 2008
9:05 AM
Allen,
You clearly have no understanding of what it means that Jesus was the propitiation for sin.
If you did understand what that means, you would never put forth the He actually died for the sins of every human being.
Scripture is clear that Jesus IS (third person present indicative) the propitiation for our (the Christian’s) sin. There is no condition placed upon John’s statement about this.To propitiate literally means to appease, to pacify, to satisfy…to win the good will of.
If Jesus did this for every human being, if He appeased God in behalf of all humanity, then it makes absolutely no sense that there is anyone suffering in hell for their own sin, because their sin has already been appeased by Christ.
64. hmm, interesting.
January 25, 2008
4:21 PM
For Allen or any one else, go to the author if you have questions about his book- or in what he believes: Universalism or Biblical salvation/eternal punishment. He should be able to answer those questions.
windrumors.com
65. greg
January 25, 2008
11:46 PM
Allen, I’m thankful for your comment and I fully agree with your thoughts. If you have your own blog, I would like to get the link to it. If you don’t have a blog, you may want to think about getting one! Thanks again!
66. allen
January 26, 2008
12:06 AM
Dear Brian,
Although I’m no systematic theologian, as a teacher I’m pretty familiar with the Greek term we translate as “propitiation” (you can see Vines Dictionary’s explanation/definition at the end of this post, although I don’t agree with the interpretation Vines applies to 1 John 2:2). Again, where the Word is clear, why not let it speak for itself?
If the Word doesn’t clearly align with our particular party line of theology (such as Christ only died for the sins of those He chose), then wrestling with it honestly and without defensiveness is a wonderful opportunity for sovereign God to make His written revelation more clear to us. If in the end we as brothers do not agree, then be careful of mis-representing what the other person is saying. In my case, universalism (i.e., everyone goes to heaven) is the last thing I would ever believe or teach.
Let’s re-examine 1 John 2:2 and examine what John is actually communicating.
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. -1 John 2:2
Context: John is writing to who in v1? He (as welll as the Spirit) is speaking directly to believers “little children who have an Advocate, along with John (thus “we”), along with all other believers who will receive the Word of God in future centuries (us included).
Who is He writing about? Jesus Christ the righteous, our Advocate with the Father.
What is John writing about in v2. Propititation “a means whereby sin is covered and remitted”
When is John writing? After the death and ressurection of Christ, under the New Convenant.
For whom did Jesus serve as the propitiation for sins? Two groups, according to this passage. First, believers. “Our” sins - meaning those to whom John is speaking - meaning the “little children” who would read this text (inlcuding us) and meaning John himself.
Who else does John include in this propitiation? He makes the point that “not ours only” - which specifically means also some other group, someone else.
Then John goes on to specifically identify who that someone else is -“but also for those of the whole world” (whole world is “holos kosmos” in the Greek). In this particular context, there is no way that “whole world” means only believers, because John has already made the specific point that God’s children (including himself) are covered in the first portion of that verse.
What does the word “those” refer to in “those of the whole world”? It refers to “sins”. Of who? The whole world. There is where I think Vines is wrong in his interpetation. What else can “those” mean? The sins of the whole world were propitiated.
Be patient here. I am still not advocating universalism.
What else do we know about reconciliation with God?
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. - Romans 5:10
Pauls writes “if - WHILE WE WERE ENEMIES - we were reconciled to God throug the death of His son….Again, we were reconciled while we were enemies - and then once we responded to that reconciliation “having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life”. Were were reconciled as enemies, but were still enemie as long as we rejected it. When we received that reconciliation, then we became children of God.
19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. -Colossians 1
Again, Paul writes that it was the Father’s good pleasure “to reconcile all things to Himself”. All things. All things that were not previously reconciled to himself. Whether on earth or in heaven.
So, as Young points out very clearly in his book - reconciliation requires both parties to agree to reconcile. God did His part through Christ’s blood.
But this propitiation/reconciliation/forgiveness is ONLY effective for those people who repent (turn from their independence and turn to Christ as their Savior) and receive the gift of the Life of Christ. Now they have responded to God’s initiative and have chosen to receive God’s reconciliation. We do nothing but receive - and even that is God’s work - but we HAVE to receive Christ’s gift of reconciliation/propitiation to be reconciled to God. Otherwise, we remain dead in our sins, under the power of sin - even though at any moment we can choose to respond to God and become ALIVE and FREE. Grace is never de-coupled from truth. John says that Jesus came full of grace and truth.
Those who reject God choose to spend all of eternity separate from Him, in hell. They reject God’s grace and God’s reconciling work. But their sins WERE propitiated by the blood of Christ - they just didn’t accept the gift. Their bill was paid, they just refused to accept the payment - and chose to continue to live as a debtor and to bear the cost of that eternal debt. That reality is another element of the stunning wonder of grace, and it also further compounds the horror and tragedy of hell.
Question: Which sins of the world did Jesus not die for, if it’s God’s will that none should perish?
Universalism says that everyone goes to heaven…and in the “Christian version of universalism” because Christ died for the sins of all. The Bible never teaches that every person will go to heaven, any way you read it. In fact, it teaches that most people will not.
However, believing that Christ propitiated the whole world is not universalism.
I hope this is helpful to someone.
Propitiation: akin to hileos (“merciful, propitious”), signifies “an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted.” It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as “the propitiation,” in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as “the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.” The italicized addition in the AV, “the sins of,” gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God’s mercy; the efficacy of the “propitiation,” however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God “sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins,” is shown to be the great expression of God’s love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Lev 25:9; Num 5:8; 1Ch 28:20; Psa 130:4; Eze 44:27; Amo 8:14.
67. Truth?
January 26, 2008
11:07 AM
Allen, like I suggested earlier- ask the author for a sit down and discuss what he believes on this issue- it might change they way you are backing his story.
Also, ask to read his 100+ page paper on universalism!! Just a suggestion-
“So, as Young -points out- very clearly in his book - reconciliation requires both parties to agree to reconcile. God did His part through Christ’s blood.” Does he?
“Those who reject God choose to spend all of eternity separate from Him, in hell.” Your words, but probably NOT Mr. Young’s.
68. angela
January 26, 2008
8:08 PM
Allen, Amen! The book was absolutely wonderful. The book represents what everyone should know about God. God loves me(every person). This book changed my life. I honestly can say that God loves me. This book broke down some walls for me that made that clear. This book is simple. God loves us and our job as christians is to have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. It is that simple. I would recommend that everybody read this book as well as your review of this book. I do have to say one thing about Tim’s review. I do not believe at all that Young implied in any way that we should or have to forgive God for anything. In fact, I think his point was that we as humans may feel like God has wronged us and with that feeling comes the idea that God doesn’t really love us and that he has done something to us that he shouldn’t have. The main character Mack was angry at God for his loss. This is a normal feeling that realistically most humans would have (whether they admit it or not) . Young clearly shows that this is an incorrect human response to tragedy. Romans 8:28
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69. Ada