John Eldredge’s Wild at Heart is a runaway bestseller. Though it debuted in 2001, it still remains near the top of the list of Christian bestsellers and has sold over three million copies, no small feat for a title marketed primarily to Christians. Unfortunately, sales figures do not indicate which books are most faithful to Scripture (indeed, one could probably make an argument that sales figures are inversely proportional to theological faithfulness) and a large number of reviewers, myself included, have pointed out some troubling flaws with the book. In Fools Gold, edited by John MacArthur, Daniel Gillespie examined the book and nicely summarized the foremost problems with the book, suggesting it has: an insufficient view of Scripture; an inadequate picture of God; an incomplete portrait of Christ; and an inaccurate portrait of man. In short, the book was deeply flawed.
Though John Eldredge has written other books since Wild at Heart, none has been a true sequel to the bestseller. Or none has been a sequel until now with the upcoming release of The Way of the Wild Heart (due for release in October of 2006). In this book Eldredge says many of the same things he said in Wild at Heart, but offers more detailed and specific guidance. “This is a sort of sequel, a continuation of the journey, offering much more specific guidance. Those of you familiar with Wild at Heart will find many of its themes repeated here, which makes sense, for the masculine heart does not change.”
The Way of the Wild Heart is subtitled “A Map for the Masculine Journey.” Eldredge attempts to show men how they can proceed through life and how they can teach other men and boys to do the same. Masculinity is not something that simply happens, he argues, but something that is bestowed. A boy learns who he is and what he is made of from a man or from a company of men. Masculinity is not intrinsic. Unfortunately, men have abdicated this responsibility, leaving many boys and men unsure of who they are and who they are supposed to be. “What we have now is a world of uninitiated men. Partial men. Boys, mostly, walking around in men’s bodies, with men’s jobs and families, finances, and responsibilities. The passing on of masculinity was never completed, if it was begun at all. The boy was never taken through the process of masculine initiation. That’s why most of us are Unfinished Men. And therefore unable to truly live as men in whatever life throws at us. And unable to pass on to our sons and daughters what they need to become whole and holy men and women themselves.” He later says, “We need initiation. And, we need a Guide.” So what does Eldredge propose? “What I am suggesting is that we reframe the way we look at our lives as men. And the way we look at our relationships with God. I also want to help you reframe the way you relate to other man, and especially you fathers who are wondering how to raise boys.” Eldredge teaches that a man’s life is a continual process of initiation as he progresses through the stages of life. He defines these stages as follows:
- Boyhood - Boyhood is a time of wonder and exploration. It is a time of doing what boys do and learning what boys learn. Above all, though, it is a time of being the Beloved Son, the apple of your father’s eye.
- Cowboy - The Cowboy stage comes around the age of thirteen and runs into the late teens or early twenties. “It is the time of learning the lessons of the field, a time of great adventures and testing, and also a time for hard work.” It is the time that a man answers the question Eldredge introduced as being the core Question to men: do I have what it takes?
- Warrior - In the late teens emerges the Warrior. This stage may last well into the thirties. “He heads off to law school or the mission field. He encounters evil face-to-face, and learns to defeat it.” He learns the rigors of discipline and learns that he must live with courage.
- Lover - At some time he also becomes a Lover. The Lover comes to offer his strength to a woman, not to get it from her. In this time he discovers the Way of the Heart—“that poetry and passion are far more closer to the Truth than are mere reason and proposition He awakens to beauty, to life. He discovers music and literature; like the young David, he becomes a romantic and it takes his spiritual life to a whole new level.”
- King - When service for God is overshadowed by intimacy with God a man is ready to be a King and to rule a kingdom. He will be tested and must prove himself able to meet this challenge.
- Sage - The Sage is the grey-haired father with a wealth of knowledge and experience, whose mission is to counsel others.
The book is framed around these stages, with each of them receiving a couple of chapters. In general the first chapter for each topic describes Eldredge’s personal experiences, while the second tends towards the practical. As with Wild at Heart, the book is deeply personal, though this time Eldredge relays many experiences he has shared with his three sons. And also like Wild at Heart, there is much in this book that is both original and mighty strange. For example, Eldredge details the “vision quests” he has prepared for his sons—a year-long time of testing as they proceed from Boyhood to Cowboy. This is a time where the boys are apparently seeking the answer to the ultimate masculine Question (do I have what it takes?) and are still seeking to be the Beloved Son. And so, over the course of a year, he provides them with manly experiences and challenges them to seek after experiences with God. The year culminates with the presentation of a sword (a real, sharp sword) and a celebration of the boy.
Many reviewers commented on the mystical bent Eldredge displayed in Wild at Heart. This mysticism continues in The Way of the Wild Heart and may well be even more prominent. Coupled with some explicit affirmations of anti-intellectualism (rare is the mystic who can also embrace a logical, intellectual relationship with God) one begins to wonder he is almost losing touch with reality. Passages like the following are all too typical. “How has God been wooing you? What has stirred your heart over the years? God has been bringing hearts to me for a long, long time. It’s one of our intimacies. He gave me a rock in the shape of a heart again yesterday, as a reminder. And as I was praying early this morning, I looked out my window and the cloud before me was in the shape of a heart. God has many such gifts for you, particular to you, and now that you have this stage of the Lover to watch for, eyes to look for the Romance, you’ll begin to see them, too.”
Another common concern with Wild at Heart was the fact that Eldredge often criticized fathers for their inadequacies. He goes further along that path in this book writing such blanket statements as “Most of our fathers are gone, or checked out, or uninitiated men themselves. There are a few men, a very few, who have fathers initiating them in substantive ways. Would that we all were so lucky.” He continues to a discussion of “father wounds.” “Whether through violence, or rejection, or passivity, or abandonment, most men did not receive the love and validation they needed as boys from their fathers.” Most men, he says, carry do not feel that they have what it takes, and most men bear this wound because their fathers did not provide what was needed to answer it. This book continually criticizes and even belittles fathers with sweeping generalizations. While I will grant that Eldredge does this in an attempt to convince men to become better fathers, such statements are rash and often disrespectful.
I could go on, but I think it will suffice to say that almost every concern levelled at Wild at Heart and Eldredge’s other books could also be made at The Way of the Wild Heart. It has the same inadequate view of Scripture, the same inadequate view of sin and the same emphasis on worldly therapy. It still argues from experience over Scripture, still twists Scripture to lead down all sorts of strange rabbit trails, and still draws as much (possibly even more) from film than from Scripture. I lost track of the number of movies quoted, but reached at least thirty-five, several of which were mentioned repeatedly, and one of which (The Kingdom of Heaven) was quoted in almost every chapter.
The Way of the Wild Heart really is more of the same. Those who were troubled by Wild at Heart will be equally troubled by this book. As for the millions who loved Wild at Heart, well, I can’t help but think that the sheer weirdness of this book will drive many of them away. This book is a complete mess and it was a trial to read. At three hundred pages Eldredge says a lot, and yet it seems like he doesn’t say much of anything. It is puff; it is filler; it is a near-complete waste of time. Avoid it.
Comments (71) »
1. jason allen
September 21, 2006
2:17 PM
Interesting comments, thanks for the post. I’ll be interested to check out the book, especially as it relates to the comments about fathers/fathering.
2. Nate
September 21, 2006
2:30 PM
I’m glad you wrote this review. A few years ago I read “Wild at Heart” - it was given to me by a close friend after he had read the book. I can safely say that over a period of about three years this by far became my most favorite book of all time.
Even over the Bible itself.
I am ever grateful to God for providing discernment - Biblical discernment - to know that much of what I loved about Wild at Heart just appealed to self. It appealed to my desires. I longed to read this book. I was in a couple of studies where we we went through the book. Even our church purchased the “Band of Brothers” DVD series and we had a study about that. I loved to watch the guys rock climbing and fly fishing and the like. I talked about this book and its subject matter as much as I could. I loved it.
Now, I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with fly fishing or rock climbing or any other outdoor activities - I still love to spend time outdoors and love to praise God for His beautiful creation that He made. That’s not the point. The point is that through all of the appealing to masculinity - from Eldredge’s viewpoint - I was drawn more and more towards self-focus. My wounds. My relationship with my father. My masculinity. My hurts. My healing. Even the last chapter soars off into self-pleasing bliss as it dares us to dive head-first into the adventure that our passions and desires call us to.
Now, this book didn’t cause me to not read Scripture, but it’s seriously flawwed use of Scripture in turn warped my view of Scripture. I wasn’t reading Scripture anyway and pretty much had an apathy towards the Bible. Wild at Heart appealed to me. The Bible was well, at that time “too boring”.
But, nothing in WAH made me want to go to Scripture. It never made me want to dive into Scripture to learn more about the most important thing that we should be learning about as believers - Jesus Christ. I can’t remember the gospel being presented or even mentioned in the book, then again it’s been awhile since I read it. Now it’s sitting collecting dust on my shelf. I’m glad for that. I praise God for calling me and drawing me back to Himself and His Word. For Jesus Himself in John 17 prayed, “Sanctify them by your truth, your Word is truth.”
Scripture calls us to not love the world or the things of this world. Scripture calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily and follow Christ. Jesus Himself through Scripture calls us to lose our lives for His sake. I can’t remember anything in Wild at Heart ever urging me on along those same lines…
Looking back it just seems so opposite to Wild at Heart. Wild at Heart appealed to ME. I agree wholeheartedly with you, AVOID THIS BOOK!!!
How about this in regards to the sword - Hebrews 4:12: “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
3. WES
September 21, 2006
2:31 PM
‘a complete mess, a trial to read, doesn’t say much of anything, weirdness, puff, filler, a waste of time, avoid it’
I take that as a thumbs up?
4. Michael Garner
September 21, 2006
2:34 PM
This book is a complete mess and it was a trial to read. At three hundred pages Eldredge says a lot, and yet it seems like he doesn’t say much of anything. It is puff; it is filler; it is a near-complete waste of time. Avoid it.
That should about summarize it. I just read Donna Thoenes’ review of Captivating by the Eldredges and it seems like the exact same criticisms. I know these are all of the same things that I thought were wrong in the original Wild at Heart. Hopefully this book will not have the same amount of success and hopefully the Eldredges can begin to present a bigger view of God, a smaller view of man, and a more biblical view of manhood and womanhood. Until that happens, their books should be avoided.
-mike
5. donsands
September 21, 2006
4:05 PM
I appreciate you reading this book, and sharing it’s content.
I have always had a difficult time with this author, ever since I heard him on James Dobson. It was just so wishy-washy to me, as I listened to him. Though the pastors in my church like him, and say there’s good stuff there, and some bones to spit out as well.
For me there’s absolutely no meat; all bones.
6. Brian Thornton
September 21, 2006
4:07 PM
From Tim’s review of Yancey’s book on prayer:
“At the very least they will find themselves led further from the objective reality of Scripture and towards experiential and mystical subjectivity.”
From Tim’s review above of Eldridge’s book:
“Many reviewers commented on the mystical bent Eldredge displayed in Wild at Heart. This mysticism continues in The Way of the Wild Heart and may well be even more prominent.”
Tim,
It sounds as if both of these authors, while writing about different things, equally rely on something other than the foundational truths of Scripture, and endorse subjective, emotional experience over and above what is already contained in the Word of God.
Would you consider them equally dangerous to sound doctrine of the Bible, and would there ever be a time you would recommend them other than to write a review?
Thanks.
7. donsands
September 21, 2006
4:08 PM
Oh, and the comments blessed me. Thanks for sharing your heart Nate. It’s helpful.
8. Josh Rives
September 21, 2006
4:13 PM
I got through the first 1/4 of Wild at Heart and put it down. I didn’t feel like I could relate because I think I had a pretty good father (but those don’t really exist according to the book). So more than likely I will not be reading this one, that is until “The Way of the Wild at Heart” Study Notes, Children’s Version, Youth Version, Inspirational Calendar and Prayer Shawl come out.
I just found this site and I am catching up through the archives. Thanks.
9. Brian L.
September 21, 2006
5:26 PM
Great review. Yeah I would say that “Fools Gold” by John Macarthur addresses these issues well, regarding Eldridge…
10. Blake
September 21, 2006
6:10 PM
oh Tim… how do you do it? How do you set out to read a 300-page book you know won’t edify you? especially when you have a family, a church, a job, a book you’re writing, and hundreds of more edifying books to read? You must be so dedicated to the discernment of Christians it’s through the roof, brother, because I don’t know how else you can get through something like this. Thanks be to Christ for your ministry!
11. Marshall
September 21, 2006
6:31 PM
“The year culminates with the presentation of a sword (a real, sharp sword) and a celebration of the boy.”
It should have been a .22 rifle.
12. Frank Martens
September 21, 2006
7:07 PM
My biggest problem with the book (and there are many) is that he says a Wild Heart is a good thing. He doesn’t say anything about the fact that our wild rebelious hearts are sinful. NO equation, totally ignores the fact.
*sarcasm* I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere a verse talking about “self-control”.
13. Tim Challies
September 21, 2006
7:18 PM
“oh Tim… how do you do it? How do you set out to read a 300-page book you know won’t edify you? especially when you have a family, a church, a job, a book you’re writing, and hundreds of more edifying books to read? You must be so dedicated to the discernment of Christians it’s through the roof, brother, because I don’t know how else you can get through something like this. Thanks be to Christ for your ministry!”
I tend to read these as a way of reaching out to people who enjoy such books. I have had countless people come to this site (and to Discerning Reader) and read my reviews on Amazon because of my reviews of books like this. I hope then to introduce them to better books. Plus, I think it’s important that I keep up with what’s going on with the Christian bestsellers, as depressing a task as that can be!
14. donsands
September 21, 2006
7:37 PM
Frank,
I believe John Eldridge says that the heart of the Christian is good. That our hearts are not wicked. In fact, he was sort of upset that people keep saying we have wicked hearts; As I recall to mind. Actually, I had to turn him off, so I only heard a short portion.
I heard him say this on Focus on the Fam.
15. Paul
September 21, 2006
8:08 PM
I work at a Christian treatment center and we us two of John Eldredge’s books as books that the young men read. We use adventure therapy, canine therapy, one-on-one therapy, and many other things to help these young men (14-24) kick deep drug addictions. I think Eldrege’s books are great and it teaches these young men how to take responsibility and become men. I’ve not read his second book but I know the Holy Spirit is working through his writtings and planting seeds in the hearts of young men to surrender there lives to Christ. I don’t think his message is that a man must be a hunter or rock climber or rugged scruffy person to be considered a man. The main point of Wild at Heart is to challenge men to be warriors. Warriors for their families and most importantly warriors for Jesus. 90-100% of the boys in our center grew up in church and have had terrible father figures who say they are Christians but don’t live it out. I had a great dad and there are some great dad’s out there but God designed it for a father to train up his son and family in the ways of the Lord by modeling how to surrender to Jesus and modeling how to daily surrender to the Holy Spirit. With the Word of God as a foundation in doing so. As husbands and fathers we are responsible to model everything in our family. Jesus is changing people’s lives and I am tired of trying to put God in a box and say he can’t do this and can’t do that. We are a generation away from secularism and we need the Holy Spirit to break into the lives of young kids all around our country to reveal who Jesus is and show them the love of the Father. Lets get on our knees guys and pray for the salvation of this generation! God is going to do it and He is going to use whatever it takes.
16. Even So...
September 21, 2006
9:18 PM
Don’t just avoid it, actively oppose it….if it is as bad as the first one and “captivating” were…
God is going to do it and He is going to use whatever it takes.
Yes, He will, and what it takes is the Bible and faithful adherence to it, not vain imaginings…
He may use these books, just as He uses false teachers, but it will be in spite of not because of…
Get on your kness and pray that you may be faithful to God above all else and proclaim His truth, not to save our society from secularism, but to give God glory…
17. Alex Chediak
September 21, 2006
10:59 PM
Tim,
Thanks. I made some remarks about Wild at Heart here (summarizing Randy Stinson’s review, which I link to).
Alex
18. Nan
September 22, 2006
12:08 AM
Once again, another great review Tim. This “Sequel” business that is so popular (everywhere but I think most shamefully in the “Christian literature” realm) has become nothing short of ridiculous. The Left Behind series and the Bruce Wilkinson *stuff* (for lack of a better word) are prime examples of this too. Thanks for the brutally honest review.
Nan
19. Caleb
September 22, 2006
2:02 AM
Paul, I suggest you read the article Tim posted recently called ‘The Ambiguously Cured Soul’. - http://www.challies.com/archives/media/Ambiguously_Cured_Soul.pdf
Taking responsibility for one’s life is good, but the most important thing is a sound salvation.
20. étrangère
September 22, 2006
5:15 AM
What book would you recommend on Biblical masculinity then Tim?
My friends & students always ask me for book recommendations and that question crops up now & then… and while knowing that WAH is rubbish, I’m not v qualified to answer the question positively.
21. Greg
September 22, 2006
6:42 AM
Etrangere,
I would suggest R. Kent Hughes book “Disciplines of a Godly Man.” It is very straight forward, enjoyable to read and most of all, based on Scripture.
In Christ,
Greg
22. Jerry Morningstar
September 22, 2006
8:20 AM
Gene Getz’s - ‘the Measure of a Man’ is not bad either - although a little dated. It’s basically an exposition of elder qualifications from I Tim. 3 and Titus 1.
23. Todd Helmkamp
September 22, 2006
8:59 AM
I enjoyed Wild At Heart, for many reasons. First, because for the first time someone was inviting me to be a man. Not a “nice guy”, but a man. It’s only been in the last 30 or so years that the “sensitive male” has been idolized (I’m currently studying psychology, sociology, and anthropology in a university. These are secular trends, also).
While I don’t agree with all of his theology, I do think he has some very good things to say. I believe that you should separate the gold from the dross, just like everything else.
Unfortunately, the only perfect book we have is the Bible. All others are written by flawed humans. Reading some of the reviews was a bit disturbing, because while I believe 100% that the Bible is THE objective standard, and the only objective standard, some of the reviews seemed to be dangerously close to the attitudes of medieval clergy that they used to justify destroying many books. Namely, if it repeats what’s in the Bible, it’s unnecessary, and if it doesn’t, then it’s sinful. I’m not trying to throw rocks at anyone, I’m just saying that some caution, both in what we accept and what we deny, is warranted. Thank you.
24. Fred
September 22, 2006
9:30 AM
Nate,
Thanks for your insight and comments. I went through the Wild at Heart book in a men’s study at my old “Seeker” church. During discussion times , I was constantly voicing , “what does all this have to do with the price of rice in China”, meaning what does this have to do with God. It seemed so “man-centered” LOL!. I am discussing with a pastor on another blog site the trend that I see towards less preaching of the Word and more “applicable teaching” that is prevailing in the church today. My take is that if we would just immerse ourselves in the Word, through preaching , teaching and reading that, that will in turn permeate our being and all the other”applicable” and “relevancy” of the Word will then come out into our actual lives. We dont need to know how to make the Word applicable , it just is , IF we do the Word and not just hear the Word. Example: we do not need someone to give us, as men, a step by step process on how to be a man of God, we just need to obey what God tells us in His Word and we will become men of God. Have we become so “process” oriented today that we can not even walk without some “field manual” to do so?
25. RevGoT
September 22, 2006
11:12 AM
Our men are going through “Discipleship for the Man in the Mirror” by Patrick Morley. it addresses Worldview, Theology, Spiritual Disciplines, Witnessing and Accountability. It is the basis for the PCA Men’s Ministry.
26. donsands
September 22, 2006
12:17 PM
Reading some biographies of men who have served the Lord before us can be very encouraging and edifying. There are some fine examples for us to study.
From Hudson Taylor to Jim Elliott, from William Carey to Eric Liddle.
27. GWilly
September 22, 2006
1:00 PM
“Here kitty, kitty” (as I offer myself to the lions)
We have bought almost everthing John and Stasi have written (literally and figuratively). They do try really hard to promote the fact that God has given (or will be giving) us a new heart, a heart of flesh (cf. somewhere in Jeremiah). The illustrations from movies I’ve seen help the material to be more engaging. I think all that stuff about “a battle to fight and a beauty to win” is pretty good. I constantly wonder “Do I have what it takes?” or “Am I (in Christ) enough?” My wife wrestles daily with “Am I too much?” I think the Eldridges have put words too many of our inner questions.
That said, we are probably not very discerning readers. I’m grateful for others who read ahead of me and caution me to be careful. Incidentally, I had signed up for an Eldridge Boot Camp in October. I had to cancel. You guys are starting to make me think that was a good thing.
28. Nate
September 22, 2006
2:15 PM
Thanks Don for the comments. Thank you as well Fred for yours as well. You hit the nail right on the head there - the Word is applicable. It is relevant. We should go to it first for instruction.
GWilly - I too was recently registered (well, in the lottery) for the Boot Camp with a friend of mine (the one who gave me this book.) We were trying to get into the April ‘06 one but didn’t make the lottery. Looking back, I’m so grateful that we didn’t make it in. Cause I know it would have only fueled the fire to draw me further away from God’s Word and closer to myself…
GWilly, take heart though, I was a very undiscerning reader as well. This is the deceiving work of Satan himself to lead men and women to focus on themselves and to accept relativism and subjectivity over truth. Specifically the Word of God. Only through God drawing me out of an apathy to Scripture and back to discernment did that change. Fellowship and communication with other discerning readers helped as well - readers who themselves held up the Word of God high as the true Sword. Pray that God would provide you ears to hear and eyes to see His truth. Read the Bible, pray and seek counsel from the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth and believe me, you will see how worthless these man-centered, humanistic books truly are when compared to the infallable Word of God. God’s Word is truth.
Wild at Heart - and seemingly this book as well - might not seem so harmless but I submit to you that they are in contrast to Scripture. Yeah, they might touch on Biblical points but does this book draw you to the Word of God? Does this book encourage you to deny yourself for the sake of Christ? Does this book encourage you to take up your cross daily and follow Christ? Does this book encourage you to not love your life nor the things of this world? Does this book give you a greater love for Jesus Christ? I can say for me, sadly no.
Readers, how about this for a fact: Eldredge constantly pushes in this book the theme, “Do I have what it takes?” Here’s the real answer to that - the Biblical one: NO I DON’T. I NEVER WILL. For in me and my flesh there is no good thing. Only through Christ am I redeemed. Only through Christ do I have life. Only through Christ am I ANYTHING.
For I can do all things through CHRIST who gives me strength… Not myself, but Christ. Eldredge’s book sadly does not make this distinction. So, which direction do you think the average reader will gravitate? Themselves or Christ? Most likely themselves. Why? Sin. I can testify to this first hand.
29. Fred
September 23, 2006
3:12 PM
I just wanted to pass one other thought and observation that I have. It seems that there are so many pastors and teachers today that seem to want to put their personal spin on scripture or on life issues. I don’t wish to seem judgemental , but for some reason, I have the gut notion that this is all about recognition, respect, clout, and even money. Once they get a “hit” they seem to be just like the movie industry and have either sequels or join in on some other’s bandwagon to get a piece of the pie. Think about it. How many books does Charles Stanley, Joyce Meyers, and others have out? How many have capitalised on the Purpose Driven attitude? How many write on current rage of cultural relevancy such as “mens or womens issues”? Am I wrong about this or do other’s sense this also?
30. donsands
September 23, 2006
7:31 PM
Fred,
I would agree with you. Surely there are those that get caught up in book writing.
However, there are those who have a gift of writing, and they use it for the Lord, and the Lord blesses their efforts. And there’s nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.
Nate,
Once again, thanks for allowing us to see your heart, and for sharing your testimony.
31. warrior44hearts
September 27, 2006
1:01 PM
I have read your criticisms of Eldredge for some time now with a mixture of amusement and sadness. John Eldredge makes no claim to theological purity. That is already being done by you, MacArthur et.al.
What he does is point men to a vibrant, living God who desires to walk with us. The church is populated by many men who look good in suits, can defend their reformed positions on everything from infant baptism to the authenticity of canon. You will also find that the categories John describes align perfectly with the physiological development of boys to men, as designed by God.
Too many of those men described above are not whole hearted. Eldredge is on to something. Though you may not be willing to entertain the concept of direct revelation, surely you can understand the need to see God as Father, and the example of initiation our human fathers should be providing. Every man does desire to prove himself, unless the too often feminine influence of the church or the world has emasculated him. A man who has no understanding of who he is is a man who is not fit for fatherhood or leadership.
I have for years watched the hard hearted among our fellowship fall back on their well thought out theology until it was so dry and without life it withered and became a Sunday exercise in sleeping with one’s eyes open. Christ calls us to true freedom-He has given us regenerate hearts! It is in true fellowship with Him we find ourselves. The same atttitude displayed by the pharasees and their view of the law is too often displayed in these pages. Too look on attendance at a W@H bootcamp as if it were something to be feared is to demonstrate true cowardice.
What is to attract the unchurched man to Christ? That man who values himself by his accomplishment and his bank account. Is it the authenticity of scripture? Is it the prospect of sitting upright, behaving himself every Sunday? I submit that which brings those men to Jesus is true authenticity. That kind of authenticity too often missing from our pews. At the end of the day, that is the message of W@H. It is an authentic walk with the King, unencumbered with the need to be right all the time. Our focus must move from the need to be right to the need to fellowship with a living God. To follow his precepts, not only out of blind obedience but with a joyful knowledge that He is with us. This walk guarantees us in the end nothing but life with Him. To take such a journey, we must know He is real-we must see him beyond concept, in the abstract, no matter how correct our theology.
As for me. My son attends a Classical Christian School. He gets perfect grades in Latin. He has memorized the shorter catachism. He is establishing the measuring tools that will some day give him discernment. He also is a fan of William Wallace, loves the wild, and is learning of a living God who is not only an abstract father as defined by the theologans he studies. He will begin his year of initiation next summer. When finished, he will understand concretely that his Father had placed in him the necessary elements for a life of service to the Great King. When he is mature, he will understand the difference between a discerning warrior and a barbarian.
My suggestion-screw up your courage, take an adventure. Get to the quiet, talk with the King. You are obviously spiritually equipped to see through and overcome the Enemy. What is to be feared by such a walk? Better yet- go to bootcamp-ask your questions directly, you might find you love the journey.
32. Brian Thornton
September 27, 2006
1:44 PM
What is to attract the unchurched man to Christ? That man who values himself by his accomplishment and his bank account. Is it the authenticity of scripture? Is it the prospect of sitting upright, behaving himself every Sunday? I submit that which brings those men to Jesus is true authenticity.
warrior…you can level your criticisms on those who would take issue with aberrant doctrine and submit your opinion all day long that you believe it is authenticity that brings the men you describe to Jesus. The truth, however, is that what brings them to Jesus is the same thing that brings any depraved soul to Jesus - the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit through the proclamation of the gospel.
33. Flawedcricket
September 27, 2006
2:07 PM
GWilly and Nate,
I went to the camp in ‘04 and it was awful. Bad theology, misticism and the flipant violation of Ephesians 5:4 on a repetitive basis in the name of being men. Walking around listening to men talk about their “new names” was rather humorous and at the same time very sad.
Save the time and the money. Attend a Shepherd’s Conference next March or the TGFG conference in ‘08.
34. warrior44hearts
September 27, 2006
4:23 PM
Brian:
How is that work of the Holy Spirit made visible to those men? How is that gospel lived out? I submit that one way the Holy Spirit prompts men is through their association with authentic Christian men. I do not deny either the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit or the proclamation of the Gospel. I point out that that proclamation can be made through the Holy Spirit’s work in the life of an authentic Christian man.
35. Brian Thornton
September 27, 2006
4:57 PM
I point out that that proclamation [of the gospel, I assume?]can be made through the Holy Spirit’s work in the life of an authentic Christian man.
warrior,
Respectfully, I couldn’t disagree more. The gospel is not me living my life around others in a certain way. Can someone tell that something is different about me by the way I live? Yes. Can I let my light shine in such a way that others see my good works, and glorify my Father who is in heaven? Absolutely.
But, the only way someone is saved is through the word of Christ. Salvation is not - in fact it cannot - be effectuated through the way I live my life. For God has chosen to save those who believe through one avenue…the foolish message preached.
Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Does this mean we are not to love or neighbor? Certainly not. But it does mean that we can live a life of good works and service to our neighbor, but until we open our mouth with the good news…they have not heard the gospel.
Grace and Peace.
36. warrior44hearts
September 27, 2006
5:08 PM
“The gospel is not me living my life around others in a certain way. “
Brian:
You and Eldredge may actually agree more than you think. In W@H vernacular that is called “Posing.” The right to be heard and respected when you open your mouth is earned. It is earned by the life you demonstrate before those non-believers. Most can spot a fraud, someone who is not authentic, who does not love their neighbor, a mile away. My point is this:
There is good in this book. To dismiss it as heresy and Eldredge as a heretic because he does not adhere to solo scriptura is to deny the possiblity that the Holy Spirit might work through him. Disagree-by all means, to dismiss as not worthy of consideration, that is fear.
37. Brian Thornton
September 27, 2006
5:19 PM
warrior,
Peter, Stephen, Paul and others did not engage in this ‘posing’ before they proclaimed the gospel. They did not first have to establish credibility so that their words would be accepted. All they had to do was proclaim the truth. Now granted, we are not all called to evangelism in the same way as these were. But my point is that the Holy Spirit doesn’t need my help to get the message through to the dead heart.
The gospel is perfectly credible apart from me. In fact, I believe in the power of the gospel so strongly that an unbeliever with no credible standing (in fact, with a negative public image) - if he proclaims the true gospel message (for whatever motive), can be used by the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of the lost. That’s how powerful the gospel is.
to dismiss as not worthy of consideration, that is fear.
Respectfully, again, I disagree. In this case it is not fear but discernment….right judgment.
38. warrior44hearts
September 27, 2006
5:32 PM
Peter, Stephen, Paul and others did not engage in this ‘posing’ before they proclaimed the gospel. They did not first have to establish credibility so that their words would be accepted.
Brian:
My point exactly. These men did not engage in posing. And the Holy Spirit does not need you. But He can use you. Just as he used Paul, who took his new name and his mystic experience to those who held so deeply to doctrinal correctness.
He can use John Eldredge as well.
39. Michael Garner
September 27, 2006
6:39 PM
He can use John Eldredge as well.
This is obvioisly the case. However, simply because God CAN use people when we are wrong about things does not mean that we have to endorse the wrong things in the process.
God can (and I’m sure does) use John Eldredge (and his wife) in the lives of many people. However, that is never an excuse for poor theology, antropology, and ecclesiology. We must continuously push towards better doctrine and practice and thank God that he used us even when our doctrine and practices were wrong.
Lastly, I think that if you consider some of the other things that God has used (but are still wrong) then you will clearly see this point.
OT Example:
God used 11 angry/jealous brothers who plotted murder and then settled for selling their brother in order to preserve his people.
NT Example: God used jealous religious leaders who put a man to death in order to save his people.
Do we excuse/ignore the actions of Joseph’s brothers or the men who put Jesus to death on account of the fact that God used them? Of course not. We thank God that in His mercy he uses fallen/wrong/sinful men.
Similarly, do we excuse/ignore the actions/teachings of John Eldredge simply because God uses him? Of course not. We thank God that in His mercy he uses a fallen/wrong/sinful man.
In Christ alone,
mike
40. Marty
September 27, 2006
9:14 PM
“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”
Get out of the stands and into the arena. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize. For the guys who read these posts and don’t read the book or don’t go to the retreats…I ask what is your walk with God and why is your discernment coming from a post on a website versus your own experience through walking with God.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
19Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.
41. Brian Thornton
September 27, 2006
9:35 PM
Get out of the stands and into the arena. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize. For the guys who read these posts and don’t read the book or don’t go to the retreats…I ask what is your walk with God and why is your discernment coming from a post on a website versus your own experience through walking with God.
Marty,
Contrary to what you apparantly believe, the ‘arena’ as you call it is not found within this book or these retreats…and your walk with God is not bound up in said book or retreats….and your discernment appears clouded BY this book and the retreats.
As to our discernment coming from a post on a website…you give Tim too much credit and the rest of us not enough for our own discernment resulting in the desire to stay away from Eldridge, Yancey and the like.
42. Marty
September 27, 2006
9:54 PM
I would reread the quote and the post. In no way am I an Eldrege or WAH apologist, nor am I promoting the book or the retreat in my post.
“the ‘arena’ as you call it is not found within this book or these retreats”
Where do I state that?
There is a such a critical spirit in the body of Christ. Instead of using our “filter” or the discernment of the Holy Spirit to allow God to speak, we seem hell bent on criticism. An old preacher of mine who baptized over 11,000 people in his time (he never wrote a book, but he was criticized by church goers and other ministers and religious leaders in the community for preaching too much salvation and having invitations that are too long) and i quote him “Many people will miss heaven by 12 inches…the distance between their head and their heart.”
I am only posting here not out of debate or anger, but simply as one who has experienced more with God and more with Him on a personal, intimate level. Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly. Let’s get rid of the checklist and the educated posts and anlysis and start living and walking with God. If you don’t believe that God is wild, put down Eldredge and all the others and read your scripture. Bottom line here is guys is that there is so much more for you once you get past the critical spirit.
I appreciate all of the passionate posts. I encourage you guys:
John 8:36
36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
43. Brian Thornton
September 27, 2006
11:33 PM
Marty,
You imply that the ‘arena’ is in the book and in the retreats by the way you equate the ones who do not read the book or attend the retreats with being on the sidelines.
I spent several years running into the criticisms you levy here when I began to see and voice concern over the man-centered mindset that was so rampant in the seeker church we were members of. Any negative observation was met with the charge of me having a critical spirit and being intolerant.
Let’s get rid of the checklist and the educated posts and anlysis and start living and walking with God.
What happened to destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ…and being transformed by the renewing of your mind?
The Christian walk is not one of undeducated mindlessness. You cannot ‘start living and walking with Jesus’ without kalos didaskalia (sound doctrine).
It is not unloving to point out error,,,it IS unloving to turn a blind eye toward error under the banner of unity…for what results is no unity at all.
44. warrior44hearts
September 27, 2006
11:45 PM
Similarly, do we excuse/ignore the actions/teachings of John Eldredge simply because God uses him? Of course not. We thank God that in His mercy he uses a fallen/wrong/sinful man.
Bywhat standard do you determine who is a wrong/fallen/sinful man? God uses John Eldredge in spite of himself, but he uses John MacArthur because of his right doctrine…God forgive us for wasting our time determining in our own wisdom who God will use. What a colossal waste of time.
If you have a son who reads W@H and finds life in his walk with Jesus, if his walk primary, or is the way he defines that walk more important?
45. Nan
September 28, 2006
1:18 AM
“Let’s get rid of the checklist and the educated posts and anlysis and start living and walking with God. “
That mindset is exactly why the evangelical world at large is currently in an identity crisis. For sure, your heart is of utmost importance but you’re also dead without your head. Downplaying the importance of orthodoxy and reason is incredibly dangerous. Not to mention it’s quite presumptious to assume that people who are passionate about orthodoxy and doctrine have a spiritual walk like a Rye Crisp. It is generally unwise to discourage Christians from using their brains. We have a reasonable faith. It’s okay to engage our minds.
“Bywhat standard do you determine who is a wrong/fallen/sinful man? “
I’m not Brian of course but I think I can safely say that we determine someone (in this instance a teacher or preacher) to be a fallen and sinful man by the fact that he is breathing (or once was). As for whether a person is wrong, well… that’s what discernment is for, that’s what scripture is for (“God breathed, useful for teaching, *rebuking* and training in righteousness…”), that’s what sound teaching is for so that our ears, hearts, and minds become so trained to what is right that what is wrong stands out like the voice of a horribly tone deaf singer to a true musician. Wrong teaching can obviously sound very credible otherwise we would not have been warned against it and its deceptiveness so much in scripture. Wrong teaching also, from what we learn in scripture, most frequently crops up *within* the church.
Just because God uses it does not make it good or all true. Just because some books contain some remnants of truth doesn’t make the books worth reading or promoting.
Nan
46. warrior44hearts
September 28, 2006
6:30 AM
I discern nothing harmful in W@H. I do see grounds for legitimate debate. Eldredge makes no claims to be correcting doctrinal error. He does claim the church has taken a wrong view of how men should be treated as men, and how men develop from boys into men.
I submit that holding on to doctrinal purity to the point where the heart is secondary is an error as well. The points made on these posts, while intellectually valid, have been debated by great men and women for centuries. To claim ownership of those ideas to the extent I see here and to fear consideration of Eldredge is a shame. Introspection and deep prayer, with a foundation of scriptural understanding is nothing to fear. The men of the Bible cited above, in the Old and New Testament were “outside the box” thinkers. I wonder how Paul, with his story of a Mystical, lifechanging experience or John the Baptist with his clothes and weird diet would be viewed by this side of the Reformed movement had it existed at the time.
If you have discernment, Nan, why not read the book and go to the wild and discern for yourself? Why rely on the opinion makers?
47. Jon
September 28, 2006
10:40 AM
I’ve read several Eldridge books and agree with Tim’s analysis. The struggle I find, with Eldridge and the likes of Don Miller (who I read once and will never read again) is that they really do write some beautiful truths that are most accurate. But then, they write others things that are completely misleading, false, etc. So my question is, at what point do you read an author, and allow the Holy Spirit to help you discern truth from error, and at what point to you simply avoid the author all together (like I do with Miller)? What I find scary is that these authors can write beautiful truth right alongside error, and less mature saints will believe it all. And thus, theological and political liberalism spreads quietly, like wildifire because of these authors. And the next minute, conservative evangelicals are dubbed ‘radicals’, ‘legalists’, and more, simply for holding fast to Scripture without wavering.
48. Nan
September 28, 2006
11:02 AM
Warrior,
I have read enough of the book to know my opinions. I do not come to Tim or any of these posters here in order to have my opinion formed. I often come here and find my opinion to be confirmed but not always.
Discernment doesn’t mean that you have to drink deeply of whatever it is you are discerning. I contend that while you believe that some of us go to people like Tim as our opinion makers, we are merely going to scripture and have found that we arrive at the same conclusion while others go to books like Wild at Heart or The Prayer of Jabez or The Purpose Driven Life as their opinion makers. I highly prefer God’s ordained means of grace; scripture, sound preaching and teaching and the Holy Spirity together as my opinion makers.
Why do you insist that holding onto doctrinal purity actually puts the heart in second place? I say it puts the safety of the heart first.
“The heart is deceitful, beyond seeking out. Who can know it?”
That truth right there reminds me that if my mind and my heart and the Holy Spirit are not all working in tandem my heart is wont to wander and to glom onto things that make it feel good. It is also a truth that proves that the heart is not to be trusted (in all its wildness) and that it must constantly be going under construction and reconstruction that it might be undivided. Many things in the heart might be inborn but many things also must be chased out of it by the Holy Spirit and by the renewing of our minds. One of those many things being, tempting though false doctrines or ideology.
You continue to say that “ohn Eldredge makes no claim to theological purity.” If he makes no claim to theological purity, what exactly is his claim? Preachers and teachers are called to theological and doctrinal purity and if they make no claim to it then they are indeed in the wrong line of work, not to mention in danger of being one who leads people astray.
Nan
49. warrior44hearts
September 28, 2006
11:25 PM
Nan:
You and I do have a significant disagreement after all. I believe the regenerate heart is transformed. It is good. It has been made whole by our Redeemer. We are certainly not without sin, for we have an enemy who seeks to steal that good heart and use it for evil.
However, that wildness, is planted by a high and holy God, who is at His core unpredictable. That wildness, always measured against scriptural precepts, is a good thing. The Spirit does not come to control our behavior. Our behavior will change with the change of heart. The purpose of that regeneration is not enslavement to being good boys. He comes to set us free!!! ( My definition of good boys would be the classic evangelical stereotype, think Fred Rogers in the neighborhood.)
Your point regarding my comments on theological purity is well made. I should have said that Eldredge did not intend for W@H to be a treatise on correct doctrine. It is a book which I believe is correct. John has not taken enough time to be explicit enough for some when it comes to the letter of doctrine. He never intended to, that is not the purpose of the book. I have however seen him answer significant questions on issues such as open theism. He speaks straightforwardly and I find nothing inauthentic or heretical about the man.
50. Jon
September 29, 2006
9:37 AM
My two cents: Eldridge does apparently have an unbiblical view of the human heart’s wickedness. That is a definite problem.
However, I have found the basic message of WAH to be extremely helpful to me over the last few years as I have approached age 30 (I’m now 29).
It would take too long to explain exactly how WAH has helped me develop what I think is a more biblical worldview, so I won’t. But suffice to say, it’s been a pretty substantial building block.
I go to Covenant Life Church, I’ve sat under C.J. Mahaney’s preaching for years, as well as the other pastor’s, and you name them, I’ve read most of them: Jonathan Edwards, Stott, Sproul, Piper, Carson, Spurgeon, Ryle, John Owen, Grudem, Driscoll, etc.
I don’t say that to brag, but simply to say, I think I understand where Eldredge’s weaknesses are, and they are significant problems. But I was able to look past those things and pick up some seriously helpful principles, that I think are in line with Scripture, most specifically, that life as a Christian is a battle against real spiritual evil, and not ONLY a struggle against our indwelling sin.
I may look back in 5 years and decide that most of what I took away from Eldredge was actually unbiblical. That is entirely possible, and I’m open to being wrong. I’m in process, and still forming my worldview (I think we all do this for our lifetimes, if we’re honest).
But I at least wanted to let you know, Tim, that I think there is a lot to be gained from reading Eldredge, and that my walk with Christ and my ability to have courage while being in the world but not of it have been helped by his message.
51. Nan
September 29, 2006
1:10 PM
Warrior,
I’m betting (though not sure) that we have fewer differences of opinion than either of us probably think at this moment. But we will right now stick to our perceived differences. You say that the heart is transformed through regeneration. I totally agree with you on this. We are made new. He has replaced our hearts of stone with hearts of flesh — hearts that feel the sting of our sin — where previously we were impervious to it because it defined us. Now we are not defined by our sins but they are still with us and are deep seated in some instances. The fact that we have been made new is not to say that our sinful nature has been obliterated and that every sinful inclination we have comes from outside of ourselves (namely the Devil). Sin still resides within us until we are glorified. We do battle with our own sinful nature all of the time. This is not to diminish the fact that we also do real spiritual battle with “principalities.” That too is definitely true.
How can we say that, “the heart is good” when we read the apostle Paul in Romans 7:
“14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.”
What scriptural basis is there for suggesting that God plants “wildness” (perhaps a clearer definition of “wildness” is needed?) in the hearts of men? (And if He indeed does, what is the “wild” equivelent in women? I’m sure I’d find that out if I read all the way through “captivating?”)
While God indeed is unsearchable and unknowable in his plans and ways, He is not unpredictable in the way that we might call a mere mortal unpredictable, for we know that “He does not change like shifting shadows.” His ways being higher than our ways does not make him “wild.” It merely means He is All-wise and we can’t attain to it or even hope to grasp a corner of it. But we can trust it implicitly, unlike our hearts — which are yet quite unpredictable in their wildness and quite predictably untrustworthy.
John Eldredge may not have been writing a treatise on correct doctrine. I don’t think any of us are accusing him of writing a counter-argument to Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion in Wild At Heart. What we *are* saying is that he has written it from a distinctively flawed understanding of doctrine. Just because it is not a treatise on doctrine does not mean that it is okay to be fuzzy (or downright wrong) on doctrine. Build on a faulty foundation and the building is going to be condemned whether or not the building itself looks nice and “feels” habitable. If the foundation is full of holes, the house is not safe and is structurally unsound. That is the major point here. There are a great many books that are not specifically about doctrine but if they are built around a faulty premise they are going to be misleading and sometimes dangerous to believers. This is made obvious through your own arguments as you have repeatedly used phrases and cliche’s from the book rather than scriptural truths for your argument. (ie. “go to the wild,” “the heart is good,” “wildness is planted by God”) These are all derivations from a book that is built on a flawed understanding of who God is and on who we are as Christians.
Please don’t take my arguments to mean that my Man shouldn’t go fishing or camping or rock climbing or take risks now and then. I’m all about the wonders of gender differences (Viva La Differance!) But building an entire anthropology around this book and its notions (a book that quotes Brave Heart more times than it seems to quote the Bible) is not going to get us any closer to what God wants for us than if we devote ourselves to the teachings of the scripture in such matters.
Nan
52. Glenn Piper
September 30, 2006
12:09 PM
I did start to read W@H and was very uncomfortable with it from the start, but when Eldridge started to say that God took risks, that was it, no more.
God either is in control (no risk taking possible) or He is not (risk taking possible).
The Bible is very clear that God is sovereign over everything and as such He cannot ‘take a risk’, because it implies He has a situation He is not in control of.
The argument that one could sift through the rubbish to avail oneself of the good is an argument I find totally unconvincing.
Why waste the time? There are plenty of godly, spirit filled authors whose writings one can enjoy and be blessed by without having to wade through a quagmire and sift through the muck and mire for the occasional titbit.
R Kent Hughes book is a very good example of how a book aimed at promoting Christian manhood should be done.
53. MH
September 30, 2006
1:15 PM
I read W@H a few years ago, and, at the time, I loved it. But one thing I was desparately lacking at that time in my life was discernment. It is so sad to me when I watch others in the same boat that I was in. I watched very descent people read W@H or Captivating and just be completely enthralled with the book. “Yeah! God is wild! So I should be wild too!” Hogwash! You bet your bottom God is wild! But He’s GOD! Absolute freedom is an attribute of God alone. God lives and moves and speaks according to his own prerogatives, but that is because he is God. He has given us the freedom to be human, not to be God, and I for one am glad that I am under his sovereign hand and limited and controlled by my own humanity. I do not desire to be God or to pretend to do his work for him. Further, God does not take risks. Does anyone smell a little Open Theism???
54. warrior44hearts
October 3, 2006
8:17 AM
“When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.”
I have no argument with Paul, neither does Eldredge. Certainly, Satan and his demons are right there. That does not change the premise that the regenerate heart has been truly made good. The regenerate heart changes everything. Instead of a heart that is continually bound in sin, we now have a heart that desires to live in freedom, but must fight to live in that freedom. In battle, we call on the One who is the Victor.
That premise is the key difference between Hughes and Eldredge. We are no longer to live in fear of our hearts. Our desires have been made new. When we understand that, and know our newfound strength, which has been granted by our Father, we now stand as true fathers, husbands, men. Those desires must be measured by scriptural precepts so their source can be confirmed, but they are God given when they do not lead us to sin. Life is not to be lived on the defensive, in fear of falling off the doctrinally correct behavior bandwagon.
Why would not God desire for His children to live in freedom. Wasn’t that the point of Eden? He has given us this desire for freedom so that we would come home to Him. Cinema is also His creation. He can use cinema just as easily as he can use expository preaching.
This discussion has taken enough time. I will simply say this: I love you all, you are my brothers and sisters. We may differ in our views on JE and the emerging church. I only request that you not put out the fire in the hearts of your sons. It is a gift from God that will allow them to train for use in His Kingdom. Please also allow for the passion that comes from those so often unchurched folks who are part of the emerging church. They need some of your passion and knowledge of scripture. Please don’t send them away demanding they cut their hair, change their way of speaking, and remove their tatoos. The Holy Spirit is working, we must all be careful not to let His work be hindered by our bickering.
Doug
55. Andrew Bauman
October 3, 2006
10:53 AM
Millions of men have lives have been transformed. Marriages saved, because of husbands regaining lost strength. Father’s reunited broken relationship with their sons, I have watch many boys return to God and most importantly many people falling deeply in love with Christ again. All because how God has used “Wild at Heart”. Jesus says “you will recognize them by their fruit”. Millions, have been transformed and moved from complacency. You are wrong, I think you are a common pharisee who hides behind some false sense of grasp on theology, I do believe these self-righteous comments were very similiar to the things Jesus despised the most. You do not have a clue. Be careful how quickly you condemn, you could be condemning the very work of God himself.
56. Chris
October 3, 2006
11:19 AM
Andrew, many false teachings and even religions can boast the same things. Marriages saved, father’s relationship restored, strength restored. But ultimately God is not glorifed. Only man is lifted up. Move beyond the ready made apologetics of Eldredge where he claims in his Wild at heart study manual that say that you need to shut down “doctrinal nazis” from questioning WAH from a biblical basis. We are to be Berean in all we do. We are told that even if an angel preaches a different gospel then we are to rejected it. Eldredge minimizes and diminishes God’s sovereignity when he says that “God is a person that takes risks”. Andrew, I do not worship a God that takes risk. I worship a SOVEREIGN God that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Furthermore Eldredge diminishes Jesus’ divine nature when he claims that Jesus failed the first time that he tried to cast out demons.
Wild at Heart is more man-centered, non-biblical psycho babble that is all too common in the average Christian bookstore today. Eat the meat but spit out the bones some will say in taking away some of the good found within Wild at Heart. Unfortunately, many people only spiritually choke on the bones. No, my friend, I am not a Pharisee nor a legalist. Just a person who holds to the sovereignity of God. Any other picture of a less than sovereign God is not the God that I worship and is thus a God made in man’s image.
57. donsands
October 3, 2006
1:06 PM
I agree with Chirs’s well spoken words.
Andrew, did you read the 2nd and 28th comments? If not, they are well worth the read.
If you did, then we simply disagree. I know one thing for sure; it’s the Bible, the Word of God that will change millions of men’s hearts, through the convicting and encouraging presence of the Holy Spirit.
58. Mark N.
October 3, 2006
2:17 PM
First of all: Thank you Tim for taking the time to do the review. Since the conceptual content of the WotH and W@H have been much discussed, I’d like to discuss a different topic….Is it me, or is John Edredge in dire need of a good editor? His conversational style may make for decent campfire chats, but 200+ pages of bad sentence structure becomes very tedious.
I enjoyed Wild at Heart, but in Raising the Dead I could not buy into the argument that our hearts are intrinsicly good after conversion.
As far as God being a risk taker…In context, John E was saying that God took a relational risk by giving us free will. I know that all you JC (the other JC….John Calvin) fans out there think this is repugnant, but I think that this holds water theologically. Don’t let your TULIP colored glasses, make you automatically reject anything that wasn’t in the bible (the other bible…JC’s Institutes). Jk’ing
59. Chris
October 3, 2006
2:34 PM
Risk implies failure. Eldredge talked about how it was “risky” to send David against Goliath. Eldredge said it was “risky” for Jesus to choose fishermen as His disciples. Risk and the sovereignity of God are not compatible concepts. God knows the results of man’s free will. But man’s free will never has and never will trump God’s will from being accomplished, just ask Jonah. Though Eldredge deinies being an Open Theist, he sure walks a fine line and sounds alot like Clark Pinnock in Wild at Heart. If you were to compare blindly the words of Pinnock and Eldredge as he states in WAH you would have a hard time picking out who said what.
60. John
October 3, 2006
6:02 PM
“I am keenly aware of the book’s insufficiences.”
“Those who would take the masculine journey will gain a great deal by following the map. Those who want to analyze it will no doubt find cause to, and remain at home.”
John Eldredge, The Way of the Wild Heart
pg xI
61. Bill
October 3, 2006
6:18 PM
I read Wild at Heart a few years ago. I don’t know how much discernment I have but, as one reviewer said it: “Give me some Bible, man!” - Seriously flawed book, in my opinion.
Doesn’t mean every single thing in it is wrong. But - holy cow - it was all I could do to get through it.
I was baffled to find how many men positively loved it and think of it as life-changing.
One trait I’ve seen in those who love W@H - they tend to brush aside any criticism of it as “fear” - one guy even mentioned in an on-line conversation that when a man turns the other cheek, just look in his face and you’ll see fear in his eyes.
Oh brother …
William Wallace is not a thing like Christ. He is what Christ’s followers hoped for - a leader of a rebellion against Rome. What they got was so much higher and better, through the submission and obedience of the cross.
In my opinion, the problem these days is not that men aren’t masculine. It’s that we’re not grown up. Too many of us are boys. I think Eldredge’s work just contributes to that.
What we need are more men who will demonstrate Christ-like maturity, including all the non-W@H traits like self-control, gentleness, and humility.
Good review Tim.
62. Bill
October 3, 2006
6:26 PM
More - one thing frustrating about Eldredge is that he could have written a much better book. He has good points.
But he starts the book with a blatant misquoting of scripture:
“the heart of man is like deep water”
Which is really a snippet from this verse
“Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water” - Prov 20:5a
A small thing, you might say. Well, yes, but it set a tone for misuse of scripture
Look - you have a great idea you think is from God to help men, then write it down. But must you bollix scripture the whole time while you do it? His exegesis on Ruth and Boaz, for instance … yikes .
Following the initial scripture misquote, he then enters a long discussion of how man was meant to be “outside the garden”, which led me to wonder if Eldredge thinks it’s God’s fault that he placed us in Eden.
I was cross-eyed at this point but I kept reading. I spit out a lot of bones and got a few good things.
Just a few.
63. warrior44hearts
October 3, 2006
10:56 PM
Thank you John.
The Journey is a real adventure. I wake every day anticipating the direction it might take.
Had I had an advance copy of the book, I too would have let JE speak for himself.
I will not watch from the kitchen window, I will remain in the arena. Those of you who would remain in the kitchen looking out are missing something wonderful.
64. Bill
October 3, 2006
11:07 PM
“Those of you who would remain in the kitchen looking out are missing something wonderful. “
Well, of course. God doesn’t want us on the sidelines. Christianity is a great adventure and I’ve thought and said that for years (long before W@H was written).
But beware the false dichotomy: I’ve seen it many times in discussions on W@H. Disagreeing with John Eldredge does not make one less of a man, less brave, or less devoted to Christ.
Eldredge’s writings are another trend, another fad in evangelicalism. They will pass, and hopefully what’s left will be the helpful parts.
65. Nan
October 4, 2006
3:01 PM
Warrior,
You say this, “Please don’t send them away demanding they cut their hair, change their way of speaking, and remove their tatoos. ” Where would you ever get the idea that those who disapprove of the JE books believe this? You obviously pulled this out of a hat.
That combined with your “get out of the kitchen” line is insulting to those who place more importance on scriptural accuracy and “testing every spirit” to be sure of its source than they place on being open to every wave of spiritual teaching that happens to wash up on the beach.
Your position is nothing short of dangerous. “God’s using it so don’t botch it up with your bickering.” We are supposed to defend doctrinal purity and we are supposed to arm ourselves against fluff that merely tickles our ears.
Having sat down and read further in W@H recently (as you goaded me), I was dumbstruck as to why so many men have found masculinity in such an emotionally driven book. It is full of emotional hogwash, eisegesis and plain misrepresentation of the scripture. It is utterly indefensible. I won’t bother quoting any of it because in the first chapter alone there were enough problems on several levels that I would not be able to fit even a teaspoon’s worth in this post. Tim doesn’t have enough bandwidth for all the problems in the book.
The book of Mormon has reunited fathers and sons and made happier families but we don’t argue that God is using it so let’s get out of the way and let the Spirit work (for we know whatever spirit is working there is not the Holy Spirit of the Trinity).
Telling people who don’t jump on every pathetic nominal Christian bandwagon that they are on the sidelines of what God is doing is proving your blindness to what God is *really* doing out there. He has for millenia, presently does and will continue to work and change hearts and lives through his Gospel and by His Spirit. Wild At Heart will be old hat just like all the other hogwash that has come and gone and God will still be making people new - bringing reconciliation between God and man and between man and man and between man and woman.
If we are on the sidelines. We are the sidelines of a sideshow — not the big picture. By God’s grace we are right in the thick of it - funky hair, tattooos, body piercings, sin and all.
Nan
66. warrior44hearts
October 4, 2006
10:41 PM
“Your position is nothing short of dangerous.”
If those who are content to occupy our pews and regard their faith as a set of rules designed to define their spiritual purity regard me as dangerous, I will be content with that view. You will be in my prayers, Nan, as will those who turn away the men (and their sons) like me. I was that Calvinist kid who tired of seeing the men I met put on their elder suits and set aside their smiles each Sunday.
I am no bandwagon jumper. I avoided Promise Keeper’s like the plague. I spent much of my 20’s and 30’s reading every RC Sproul book I could get my hands on. I have seen enough temporary, self disciplined commitments come unraveled in my life to make me a skeptic. I did not, in fact, really begin this chapter in my faith until I went to Colorado to see the Ransomed Heart team for myself. They are just who they say they are. I wish I could say the same about all men who follow Jesus. You may see W@H as a fad. I think not. I have seen JE and his team, stood before them and critcally analyzed them with my jaudiced, elder’s eye. I have found nothing inauthentic about them. If you set aside your emotions and read JE’s quote above, you may see that authenticity.
There is life-it is to be lived going forward in the strength God has bestowed on us. It is unpredictable, sometimes frightening, but it is the only way I know to walk with the King.
I differ with you. I believe the next generation of men will reach out in faith beyond the boundries we now see. They will offer a life of deep fulfillment in fellowship with an Almighty God who cares for each of us, but who is not bound by narrow rules of doctrinal interpretation that require conformity to rules designed only to remind men of their sinful, unrepentant hearts. Instead, they will demonstrate the changed lives of strong men, who live in full knowledge of the power given them by their Creator. They will move fearlessly in that strength and power.
I was given a high compliment today. My son, the 10 yr old I referenced previously, visited a friend. The friend said to me “I didn’t know you cloned yourself, your son tells me he understands his true heart-I asked him what he meant. He said it meant that God was making him a Warrior for good, that he should protect the smaller of his friends and his sister.” The boy with the 130 IQ, who gets As in Latin, understands derivitives, believes he was made new when he was 3, and recites the shorter catechsm. That boy believes his sense of adventure comes from God. His desire to move and to not sit still he believes is a gift from God also. He knows that fellowship with the King is nothing to fear, and when he does fear something that will not lead to sin, he should lean into that fear, so that he will learn. Last Halloween, he said to his neighbor- “I follow Jesus, He is stronger than these ghosts and ghouls, and as a Christian, I can call on His power and overcome them. I do like candy though.” He finds fellowship with his Maker on a Sunday more easily in the mountains watching the eagles than in his seat in church, sitting still, hand clean. He knows that every time God meets a man directly in the Bible-it is in the wild. He sees Jesus as the God-Man who fearlessly parted the crowds in His hometown who threatened his life, who was comfortable in the company of sinners, fishermen and whores. He understands that there are REAL star wars.
God is raising those boys up to be great men of faith, fearlessly unbound by rules that in the end have their roots in fear of sinning. They will be able to measure truth, but they will also know deep intimacy with God who has given them life.
I count it an honor to train such young men, to initiate them into manhood and a life of real faith. God will use them for generations.
67. donsands
October 5, 2006
12:01 AM
“narrow rules of doctrinal interpretation that require confomity to rules designed only to remind men of their sinful, unrepentant life.”
Personally, I love R. C. Sproul’s teachings. I hope you’re not including him in this thought of yours.
The spiritual war today is mainly human-centered vs. Christ-centered teaching and preaching. And there is a balance of course. But we surely need to be Christ-centered foremost.
From Tim’s review, I see this book as human-centered.
It may even seem more loving; but it’s not, to be human-centered.
Paul said that he was crucified with Christ, and the world is crucified to him, and he to it. And that he would boast only in the Cross.
This is what is needed. To see the Savior bearing our sins, and we so undeservering of this. Paul knew this, and he accomplished so much for our Lord.
Paul said he was the chief of all sinners. I feel like I am, and yet I know what the Lord did for me, when He shed His precious blood. He became the blasphemer, self-centered rebel. And He gives me His righteousness!
What a Savior! All praise to His name.
68. nan
October 5, 2006
1:19 AM
“The boy with the 130 IQ, who gets As in Latin, understands derivitives, believes he was made new when he was 3, and recites the shorter catechsm.”
I could have written those exact words about my six year old son. For it is all true of him as well. Your sharing of your child’s powerful testimony is still not a testimony to the wisdom of W@H. It is a testimony to God’s grace, as is God’s spirit moving in my own four sons.
The fact that God got the attention of men in the wilderness at times in scripture means only that they were wilderness dwellers or that they were running from something when He grabbed hold of them. The wilderness is not the key thing. God’s grabbing them is. Many a man’s heart have been grabbed and set aflame in places like temples, churches - posh or underground — places like the Ariopogus (forgive my spelling) — places like hotel rooms or upper rooms.
As for this statement: “He finds fellowship with his Maker on a Sunday more easily in the mountains watching the eagles than in his seat in church, sitting still, hand clean.”
This is precisely why the church will not be done any favors by JE and W@H. Men who grow up believing that watching an eagle is equal to or better than the regular gathering together of the saints (as we are called to do) will one day be expected to lead our churches, be apt to teach, call people to repentance, be well acquainted with orthodoxy so they can smell a heresy a mile away in order to protect the flock that is under their care, be elders and deacons… How will they do that if they have decided that wildlife and corporate worship can be lined up next to one another in a comparative fashion?
“They will offer a life of deep fulfillment in fellowship with an Almighty God.”
I’m sorry you haven’t seen this or experienced this and you don’t believe it has ever happened before, but just because you haven’t, I assure you that it surely has and currently is all over the place by God’s grace. Playing more golf and spending more time with Elk doesn’t make these things anymore possible than they already are.
“He said it meant that God was making him a Warrior for good, that he should protect the smaller of his friends and his sister.”
These ideas are not at all unique to W@H. Any of Doug Wilson’s books (to name just one recent source) would assure you that these ideas have been around for quite awhile.
I don’t know where you come up with the idea that we “turn away” people with flawed beliefs about God. We hope and pray only that they will come to see the logical progression of faulty foundations. Nor do I understand why you believe me to summarize my faith as a cold “set of rules.” You have clearly misunderstood my insistance that doctrine is important for meaning “doctrine is my religion.”
“I was that Calvinist kid who tired of seeing the men I met put on their elder suits and set aside their smiles each Sunday.”
That, indeed is sad. That says more about those individuals (if your perceptions were correct) and about your perceptions (possibly not omniscient) about them than it does about anyone who believes orthodoxy to be important. It certainly doesn’t say anything about my husband or myself.
All I’m suggesting, Warrior, is that people, (yes even men!) can have full and masculine and robust relationships with their Lord without “going to the wild” or believing things about God or ourselves that we know from the Bible are not true. (ie. God takes risks and that the Christian’s heart is intrinsically good). Some men actually have incredible impacts on the world while wearing suits and ties and commuting to a godless workplace every day. Some men have incredible impacts on the world while wearing suits and ties, preaching to and praying with a new believer or a seasoned saint in the pews of a church. And they don’t all get that power and that grace from “going to the wild” but from going to the fountain.
Nan
69. Wordlover
October 5, 2006
10:46 AM
Thanks to all, especially Warrior and Nan, for keeping this excellent conversation alive. I’m going to try to put some book-length thoughts into a comment-length space, hopefully without alienating everyone.
In my study of Christendom, I see two groups of people: those inclined to truth, and those inclined to spirit. Both presume they hold these in balance, but it seems to me they do not. Each group is also easily distracted by the frauds in the other’s camp, which dissipates a lot of otherwise productive conversation.
Scripture warns us that abandoning either spirit (2 Timothy 3:5) or truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10) can lead to destruction. Jesus, and the apostles after Him, clearly held doctrine and the manifestation of power in tandem (e.g. Luke 7:22, Acts 14:3), and there is no compelling reason to think they must now be severed. Truth guards spirit, spirit gives context and consequence to truth.
Rather than reinforcing any division between spirit and truth, the church would be far better served if we understood the battle line to be drawn between the profane and the sacred, the fleshly and the eternal. Our true enemy is our own self-indulgence, whether it wears the guise of false experiences (the vulnerability of the spirit-folk) or pride (the bane of truth-lovers).
The reason Wild at Heart is precipitating such passion is because gender differences matter at a far deeper level than our society has been led to think. There is a strong impetus especially to rediscover masculinity. For the spirit-inclined, WAH (and PK before it) has enormous draw. For the truth-inclined, witness the upsurge of interest in Calvinism…and even Catholicism, which offers deep ritual and established authority to men who are hungry for the satisfying order of orthodoxy.
What is desperately needed is for truth and spirit to work together to restore the beauty and effectiveness of God’s design for gender, if not in our world, at least in the church. To that end we must develop a measure of humility that acknowledges the need for both a strict adherence to the high truths of scripture and a freedom to let God’s Spirit take us wherever He will (John 3:8).
Diane
70. GWilly
October 5, 2006
6:11 PM
This has been an enjoyable and productive discussion.
71. nan
October 6, 2006
12:05 AM
nicely put Diane.
Nan