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Letters to Luke (III)
- 01/18/10
- 27
As you know, I’ve been participating in a short exchange of letters with Luke Muehlhauser who blogs at Common Sense Atheism. Here is where we’ve been so far:
Luke’s First Letter to Me
My Reply to Luke
Luke’s Second Letter to Me
My Second Reply
Luke’s Third Letter to Me
And here is my third and final letter.
*****
Luke,
I guess this brings us to the final letter in our brief exchange. I have enjoyed this little series. As you no doubt know by personal experience, blogs tend to attract a very homogeneous readership—people tend to read blogs for which they identify with the author. Generally that means that they are quite similar to the author in the most important ways. Every now and again, though, for the sake of growth and variety, it is interesting to break the mold a little bit and we’ve done that here. It has been a learning experience and one I’m grateful for.
I’ve delayed this letter just a little bit as I’ve been wondering what to say and how to close out this exchange. With such vast differences in our belief systems, there is an endless list of issues we could discuss. But ultimately, I care a lot less for issues than I do for people. So I’d like to close in this way. I know in saying these things I may well be falling into exactly what you had hoped or expected. But I fear for you and find that there is nothing else I want to say as urgently as this.
In my first letter I quoted words from the book of Romans: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.” God has given you a remarkable privilege, Luke. Not only did he give you knowledge of him through all that he has made (including you!) but he also allowed you to be born born into a home where you had access to the Bible, where your parents took you to church, and where you enjoyed countless other blessings. And yet you are suppressing the truth about who God is and about the very fact that he exists. In so doing, you are provoking God’s wrath. God cannot and will not abide such sin.
Yet God is gracious. “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead” (Acts 17:30-31). God commands all people everywhere to repent. God commands you to repent, Luke. He tells you to turn away from sin, to stop suppressing the truth and to turn toward him. “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9). God commands that you turn and he is patient as he waits for you to do so.
But he will not wait forever. “Do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed” (Romans 2:4,5). In continually turning your back on God, you are storing up wrath for yourself. “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury” (Romans 2:6-8). This is your future, Luke, if you do not turn from your sin.
My prayer for you is that you would turn to Christ. In fact, I call on you right here and right now to do just that. Turn from yourself, look to Christ, and find life in him! Jesus said, “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30). Heed his call; turn to him; find life.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
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Comments (27)
Hi, your approach is really intriguing, it seems like presuppositional apologetics from what I have heard of it. Could you recommend any books on this?
Thanks
A fine way to end Tim, God bless.
What you said about caring about people more than issues is huge. Ultimately, we are swayed by love. While God gives us a million reasons and facts and evidences to believe in Him, ultimately, we are swayed by his love for us.
DavidRed Letter Believers bloghttp://www.redletterbelievers.com“Salt and Light”
Tim,Could you explain your thoughts on how this exchange may relate to election? Two bright men engaging about similar facts coming to drastically different conclusions. Does this have anything to say about election or reprobation? I only ask because I read atheists and I am astonished that they deny the existence of a creator when it seems as clear as the nose on my face; similarly, I am sure they think the same of me.
Jason
Thanks again, Tim, for this exchange. I’ve enjoyed it. I also like what you said about caring for people, not issues. That’s right on. I think Luke would probably agree with you as well, though, which to me seems an interesting tension.
Anyway, thank you for doing this. It’s been my favorite series you (or anyone else for that matter) has done lately.
-Marshall Jones Jr.
Tim, Thanks for doing this series and thanks especially for the way you ended this. I admit that I was very leary at first, but this series has both confirmed and enlightened my thoughts about belief. Anyway, the exchange has been more of a blessing than I expected. Thanks again.
Convenient that you chose to totally change the topic and make this condescending plea in the final letter of your exchange, when Luke no longer has the chance to reply.
If you’re really so concerned about Luke’s eternal destiny, you should go beyond this limited public exchange and really get to know him. I’m sure he’s heard all the basics before. A short public plea like this isn’t going to make a whit of a difference.
I agreed and disagreed with things said on both sides during this exchange of letters, but more than anything I hope it encourages Christians and atheists to interact more. What is there to fear? I only hope that these types of conversations are happening all over the place in coffee shops and schools and workplaces. That type of vulnerable face-to-face communication can be difficult but so much better. We use the internet for great things, but we also hide behind the shield of anonymity and the safe distance that it provides. (And I mean “we” as in “all people debating, conversing, and sharing opinions via the internet”. Not trying to call anyone out here.) :)
@halo:
I asked Justin Taylor the same question not too long ago and he recommended “Apologetics to the Glory of God” by John Frame first. Then, second, the Van Til Reader, edited by Greg Bahnsen.
thanks Brian, I have read Frame’s Doctrine of the Knowledge of God but found it a bit too heavy and not dealing with some very basic objections - like was it really Paul’s approach - he argued from the Scriptures with Jews because they believed them but when he went to Athens he seemed to argue on the basis of what they accepted (‘altar to an unknown God’ etc…).
Are either of these 2 books a bit more accessible than the Frame one I have read?
Thanks
Praying for Luke. Thanks Tim!!!
Luke is a busy letter writer!
He is also corresponding with another Christian blogger, Vox Day:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/letter-to-common-sense-atheism-vii.html
halo - i actually just ordered “Apologetics to the Glory of God” and it’s due to arrive this week. Most of what i know about presuppositional apologetics has come by the way of audio and video from Greg Bahnsen. I have read many articles (by Frame, Bahnsen and Van Til), but so far, no books. This will be the first.
All of their writings seem a bit heavy. I found the Greg Bahnsen channel on youtube and found that very helpful. (like with everyone, use discernment. for me, personally, i think I disagree with some of Bahnsen’s theological positions. But in the area of apologetics, his teachings have allowed me to grow - so, he’s been a big help!)
Tim, I think you responded to the letters really well, and as I read Luke’s third letter, I was really hoping that you would use a lot of Scripture to show God’s call for Luke to repent. I was thinking about Isaiah 55:11 and 2 Timothy 3:16”so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it”“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness”It seems apparent to me that when the Word is preached powerfully, those who are eternally dead will be reborn to life.
God’s Word is powerful; “Salvation belongs to the Lord”.
I’ve really enjoyed the exchange, Tim. I think you’re right, God has God has given Luke a remarkable privilege by allowing him to be born born into a Christian home with access to the Bible, etc. However, I, like Jason, wonder if “two bright men engaging about similar facts coming to drastically different conclusions” has anything to say about election or reprobation.
You know, the most major problem with Luke’s impassioned plea for atheists and Christians to work together for the good of all mankind is our respective intolerance for each other and the way in which that is expressed. For Christians, an atheist is someone who will, without a doubt, purposely stymie the primary goal of Christians, that being to minister to the eternal as well as the temporal needs of individuals in need of aid. For atheists, we are all too often misguided and should not be allowed to influence those in need who are in such a vulnerable state. For a Christian and atheist to work together side-by-side requires one or the other to be someone who professes their faith, but fails to follow through. That said, I have yet to hear of any relief effort turning people away based on religious affiliation.
Tim, I have really enjoyed these letters. Long ago when I was in high school (!) I engaged in a similar exercise with another student in my year. I don’t think he changed any of his views, but who knows what happened to some of the seeds that were planted. I also pray for Luke’s soul and agree that there doesn’t seem another way to end your exchange when God’s call to repentance is the only thing that really matters at this point. Well done, and thank you for the courage to take up this “challenge” in the first place.
Brett you said:
“Convenient that you chose to totally change the topic and make this condescending plea in the final letter of your exchange, when Luke no longer has the chance to reply.
If you’re really so concerned about Luke’s eternal destiny, you should go beyond this limited public exchange and really get to know him. I’m sure he’s heard all the basics before. A short public plea like this isn’t going to make a whit of a difference.”
What you seem to forget is that it is God that changes hearts, not us. All we can do is be willing vessels in God’s hands.If Luke is elect, then in God’s timing he will be irresistibly drawn to Jesus.
Tom said: “What you seem to forget is that it is God that changes hearts, not us. All we can do is be willing vessels in God’s hands.If Luke is elect, then in God’s timing he will be irresistibly drawn to Jesus.”
In that case, it seems silly for anyone to bother with evangelism like Tim does in this letter. Might as well leave it up to God entirely. If God will use you, he’ll use you, regardless of what you do. If God will use someone else, he’ll use someone else, regardless of what you do. If that’s how God works, all our personal actions become irrelevant to the furtherance of his mission.
It seems foolish to contrast election and evangelism. The apostle Paul wrote about predestination because of what happened to him, he was the least likely to ever become a Christian on his own; yet God chose him and regenerated his heart. Why on earth would Paul teach election and predestination if he didn’t experience it himself first hand? And yet, the apostle Paul was, aside from Jesus, one of the best evangelists in all of history.
How then can Paul be passionate about evangelising and at the same time teach election, unless the two are not polar opposites?
Brett Said: “In that case, it seems silly for anyone to bother with evangelism like Tim does in this letter. Might as well leave it up to God entirely. If God will use you, he’ll use you, regardless of what you do. If God will use someone else, he’ll use someone else, regardless of what you do. If that’s how God works, all our personal actions become irrelevant to the furtherance of his mission.”
Brett I’m very sorry you feel this way, but the reason people such as Tim and others take the time to evangelize is because their being obedient to what God has commanded of us as Christians. We don’t know who God has “elected” but we do know that as obedient Christians we lovingly want to share with others the same peace and joy that has come to us only through the Grace of God and our faith in Christ Jesus. I understand you’ll have some rebuttal to my comments, but you must realize that we may not see people come to Christ through our efforts, but we will be certain that God get’s the glory in all that we say and do. We serve an Almighty Sovereign God and we live to share His divine truths with others, for it’s only in these divine truths, that a man can truly and eternally be set free from his inherent bondage in sin. I certainly pray that God can use the words of Tim to evoke in Luke’s heart a yearning to repent of his sins and follow Christ; for life will always be utter vanity to those that don’t fear the LORD.
Tim, this is the best way you could possibly end the conversation: a humble appeal. What a blessing this correpondence has been.
For the sake of your less read audience, I hope you’ll take some future blog time, Tim, and address some of the historical accusations that Luke has made against the Bible. By association, you’ve introduced the topic of biblical inerrancy to your readers. A great book is Lee Strobel’s The Case For The Real Jesus. I’m sure, as well read as you are, that others (and better ones at that) will come to your mind.
I hope you address the accusations he’s made, because really, his arguments all hinge on the validity of the Bible. The Christian argument hinges on the validity of the Bible. Apart from God’s inspired Word, we have little stand on.
Tim,What a great way to close your correspondence with Luke - a real Hebrews 4:12 response. I may be wrong, but I am convinced that all of our persuasive arguments are really just wasted breath. It is the Gospel, and most especially, the gospel communicated through the scriptures, that has the power to save. Thanks for the encouraging and thoughtful post.
kudos, Tim.
And God bless you with a new heart, Luke, as I’m sure you will be reading this.
grace upon grace.
Tim, this is the best way you could possibly end the conversation: a humble appeal
This is not a humble appeal. It is an arrogant appeal: the assumption that the answers belong only to those chosen few with the ability to follow patently-absurd beliefs, and those with the honesty to view the world as clearly as possible are punished with a god’s wrath for suppressing “truth”.
Humble must have a different definition in this corner of the Internet.
I found it interesting how Tim practically refuses to comment on anything, at all, that Luke said in his last letter, even refusing to give reasons behind all of the beliefs Tim lists.
This seems like a cop out to me. And condescending.
Reggie,
If Lee Strobel is the best defender of the Bible that you can come up with, you’re in trouble.
If, on the other hand, you need someone who will only cherry-pick from a tiny amount of the scholarship available, ignoring everything that goes against his already established belief system, then Strobel is your guy.