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Self-Centered Sex (Part 2)
- 01/25/07
- 71
This article continues the discussion I began yesterday on the topic of self-centered sex. Because sex is created by God and to be used for His glory, it is not purely a physical or sexual or emotional issue, a theological issue. Thus in yesterday’s article we built a brief framework in which to understand sex from a biblical perspective. We saw that sex is: a Gift From God; intended only for marriage; for giving and receiving pleasure; a means of building intimacy; intended for procreation. Today we will continue this discussion to encompass autoeroticism, the act of providing sexual pleasure to oneself.
Before I continue, I would like to address one concern that was raised in the comment section yesterday. One commenter wrote “A happily married man’s advice to lonely, sex-starved, Christian singles may be theologically right on the money but nevertheless leaves the reader cold, unmoved, even resentful. It’s easy to dispense advice on how to diet while stuffing your face at the buffet table, after all.” I would suggest, though, and despite what this commenter says, that this is an issue that applies to married men as well as single. Men or women who masturbate when they are unmarried may not find that having regular sex with a marriage relationship will necessarily or immediately remove the desire to masturbate. Sex and masturbation, while similar in some ways, are also dissimilar. One is pure, the other is sinful. One is selfless, the other is selfish. One requires effort, the other is quick and easy. When a person has many years of selfish sex in his background, he may not find the transition away from that to be simple. Sin cannot always be removed as easily as simply replacing it with something else. More often it requires dedicated effort and many pleas for the aid of the Holy Spirit for sin to be eradicated.
Blindness, Baldness and Hairy Palms
I suspect my childhood is typical in that I heard many rumors about the physical effects of autoeroticism. I was told that people who did it went blind, lost their hair, grew hair on their palms or went crazy. But as James Dobson says, “If it did [cause such afflictions], the entire male population and about half of females would be blind, weak, simpleminded and sick. Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys engage in this practice — and the rest have been known to lie.” My parents certainly never told me such lies and neither did any of my teachers or youth leaders. Yet these rumors were passed from boy-to-boy on the playground, usually long before any of us had ever given serious consideration to sexuality. We did not know what the act was, but we did know the supposed repercussions.
While these rumors are clearly unfounded, they continue to be told simply because autoeroticism is a topic that breeds guilt and shame. It encourages worry that a person will be found out. Yet there is no physical reason to deny oneself this sexual pleasure. As Josh Harris writes in Sex Is Not The Problem (Lust Is) (the book from whence I stole the title for this series of articles) “masturbation isn’t a filthy habit that makes people dirty. It only reveals the dirt that’s already in our hearts.” The physical act of masturbation simply points to a deeper problem within. So while autoeroticism is not filthy and does not make a person filthy, there can, however, still be a mental and spiritual toll as many people struggle with feelings of guilt, remorse and shame because of their habits. This may be a convincing reason for some people to avoid participating, but for many it is not. Sadly, guilt is not enough of a motive for many of us to curb our sinful behavior.
Purity of Mind
The most common reason given why people should not engage in autoeroticism is that it pollutes the mind. Sexual gratification is not merely a physical act, but one that engages the mind. In speaking with men who struggle with this sin, one will find that the act brings far less guilt than the accompanying fantasies. These fantasies run rampant during acts of autoeroticism. This type of fantasy can be dangerous in at least two ways.
First, as most adults have learned the hard way, reality is rarely as wonderful as fantasy. Many people create expectations for sex in their minds that the reality cannot meet. I dare say that rarely has a teenage boy created a fantasy in which his partner gently and lovingly rebuffs his advances because she is too tired. Neither has he concocted a fantasy in which she declines participation in a particular act because she finds it uncomfortable or distasteful. The fact is that fantasy can create unhealthy and unrealistic expectations of sex.
Second, fantasy will rarely involve legitimate sexual partners. A teenage girl has no legitimate reason to pursue sexual fantasy, for she has no God-given partner with whom she can consummate such desire. While it is perfectly legitimate for a husband to dream of a sexual encounter with his wife, autoeroticism may encourage him to fill his mind with thoughts of other women, or even to gaze at pornographic material to fuel his mind.
Fantasy is dangerous when left unchecked. Autoeroticism is wrong when it violates the Lord’s teaching about moral purity. “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Fantasy can also be dangerous when it creates unrealistic expectation.
Some will protest that when they engage in autoeroticism it is merely a physical act and one they do to relieve stress or boredom. They will insist that they do not succumb to thinking inappropriate thoughts. In his book When Good Men Are Tempted, Bill Perkins writes, “It appears to me that masturbation is amoral. Under some circumstances it’s acceptable behavior. On other occasions it’s clearly wrong” (page 122). He goes on to provide three tests which will gauge whether a particular instance is right or wrong: the thought test (whether the act is accompanied by inappropriate fantasies), the self-control test (whether the act becomes obsessive) and the love test (whether autoeroticism leads to a person failing to fulfill the needs of his or her spouse). I found it interesting that in a book about sexual purity this topic was covered in only two pages and that the pages were at the very end of the book, almost as if this topic was an afterthought. Millions of men and women will tell you that it is far more than an afterthought.
James Dobson teaches a similar view of autoeroticism being amoral. When I was young my parents gave me his book Preparing for Adolescence and I remember this teaching well. He believes that every boy (and most girls) try it and that the guilt brought about by the act destroys many children. Thus he believes parents should rarely speak to their children about it, and if they do, to reassure their children that such practices are normal. Here is what he says on his web site (and thanks to a commenter for digging this up):
It is my opinion that masturbation is not much of an issue with God. It is a normal part of adolescence that involves no one else. It does not cause disease. It does not produce babies, and Jesus did not mention it in the Bible. I’m not telling you to masturbate, and I hope you won’t feel the need for it. But if you do, it is my opinion that you should not struggle with guilt over it. Why do I tell you this? Because I deal with so many Christian young people who are torn apart with guilt over masturbation; they want to stop and just can’t. I would like to help you avoid that agony.
This response is shockingly humanistic. The way to avoid the agony of guilt is not to ignore sin, but to focus on the gospel. Dobson feels that this is an issue young people should not be expected to agonize over. Speak honestly and open to young people, though, and they will tell you that they do want to talk about it and that they do want to be reassured that it is wrong and that they can and should overcome it. The guilt they feel is not irrational but is good guilt, guilt brought about by sin and intended to help correct it.
Like Perkins, Dobson does not engage in a biblical examination of this particular topic. Like Perkins he concludes that autoeroticism is amoral because there is no specific bible passage that allows or condemns the practice. Steve Hays, who writes at Triablogue also wrote recently about the potential amorality of masturbation. “If masturbation is a sin, then it's a little odd that Scripture would leave the believer guessing about its moral status.”
Yet, as we will see, the Bible is not silent and does not leave us guessing. While Scripture may not mention masturbation explicitly, I would suggest that this simply points to the fact that it speaks so much and so thoroughly about sexuality that there is no need to speak about masturbation (just as Scripture speaks so thoroughly about murder and the value of human life that there is no need to speak explicitly about abortion). I believe the Bible’s teaching on sexuality proves that masturbation is sinful whether it is an act accompanied by sinful fantasy or an act that is purely physical.
God’s Purpose in Sexuality
Yesterday we learned that the purpose of sex is to provide ultimate intimacy between a husband and wife. There is no greater expression of vulnerable intimacy between human beings. A close examination of the Scripture’s teaching on sexuality will uncover no reason to believe that God ever intended sex to be a private pursuit. The heart and soul of sexuality is the giving and receiving of sexual pleasure. Sex is intended to be a means of mutual fulfillment where a husband thinks foremost of his wife, and the wife things foremost of her husband. As they fulfill each other’s needs, they have their own fulfilled. It is a beautiful picture of intimacy! As any married couple can testify, the more selfless the sex, the better sex becomes. The more each spouse seeks to please the other, the more fulfilling and gratifying the act becomes. It is beautiful in that regard. As we might expect the opposite is also true. Sex that is completely selfish is sex that is demeaning and unfulfilling (rape, an act of utter selfishness, may be the ultimate expression of selfish sex).
Sex is so important to a marriage that the Bible forbids us from neglecting it. “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control” (1 Corinthians 7:5). This deprivation can refer not only to time but to activity. A man should no more deprive his wife over a period of time than he should deprive her by private sexual activity. As married couples can attest to the importance of sex, I’m sure most can also look to times when they neglected this activity and can testify to the difficulties in caused in their marriage. God intends for husbands and wives to have sex with each other and to do so regularly.
And this, the mutual giving and receiving which lies at the heart of God’s purpose for sexuality, is exactly what autoeroticism cannot provide. It strips sexuality of its divine purpose of mutual fulfillment. It takes an act God intends to build relationship and makes it an act of selfish isolation. Masturbation and fantasy attempt to create a false intimacy rather than the true intimacy between a husband and wife that God has built into the marriage relationship.
I remind you again of the passage we looked at yesterday. “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does” (1 Corinthians 7:3-4). A man’s body does not belong to himself, but to his present or future wife, and ultimately to God. A wife’s body belongs to her husband (and to God). Likewise, a single woman’s body belongs to her future spouse and is to be kept pure for him. Neither spouse has the right to express sexuality apart from the other. When the Bible tells a man that he is to express his sexuality exclusively with his wife, why do so many interpret this to mean that he can express his sexuality with his wife or by himself?
How Bad?
By now I think it should be clear that masturbation is a sin—one that ought to be repented of and one that Christians need to fight against. Sadly, though, for many young Christians, it becomes an issue that begins to define their spiritual state. Some people feel such guilt for this act that they begin to question their salvation and begin to see themselves only through the lens of this sin. There is no doubt that this is a serious sin, but it should not be given so much prominence that people can see nothing past it. Josh Harris writes wisely, “When we inflate the importance of this act, we’ll either overlook the many evidences of God’s work in us or we’ll ignore other more serious expressions of lust that God wants us to address.”
Pornography
I want to add a brief word here about pornography. I feel this is relevant to the discussion simply because pornography and masturbation are so closely allied. Despite this connection many discussions of pornography shy away from also discussing masturbation. Yet the whole point of looking at pornography is to fuel sexual fantasy and to culminate in masturbation or another selfish form of sexual expression. Few Christians would argue that pornography is acceptable and yet countless numbers are attracted to it or ensnared by it. Like masturbation, pornography is inherently self-centered. It creates a false intimacy between an anonymous person in a magazine or on a screen and the viewer. It provides escapism and release, but requires no effort and no self-denial. It creates a selfish, self-centered, self-focused perversion of the true, sacred act.
Not A Selfish Pursuit
Do you see, then, how autoeroticism denies the very purpose for which God created sex? Sex was not meant to be a selfish pursuit. It was not intended to focus a person’s thoughts on himself and his own needs. Rather, sex was designed as a means of fulfilling the Lord’s command to esteem another higher than oneself. The pleasure of sex is not meant to be enjoyed in isolation, but to be enjoyed while providing that same pleasure to another. Autoeroticism cannot fulfill God’s design for sexuality, and thus has no place in the life of one who calls himself a Christian.
Gospel
For those who struggle with this sin, take heart, for there is hope. The blood of Jesus was shed for sins like this one and the power of the Holy Spirit has been given to us so that we can overcome sins like this one. This is not a sin that is beyond the power of God to overcome. You can be set free from it.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at
Releasing on April 1, The Next
Comments (71)
The verse quoted in the last comment should be 1 Cor 10:23 not 1 Cor 8:23. I think that that one is bang on. I’m not sure that I can emphatically say that masturbation is sin but the only reason for doing it is for self-gratification. Since it potentially will let down your spouse or future spouse wouldn’t it just be better not to?
“The verse quoted in the last comment should be 1 Cor 10:23 not 1 Cor 8:23. ”
Opps, my bad! 1 Cor 10:23. Thanks!
Dave,
I don’t think the logic of the answers to your questions has to land in any philosophical camp. I think it lands in the realm of logical and is scriptural if not “proof text-able”. As several folks have already alluded to this issue was not directly addressed in scripture.. Tim had to layout an entire scriptural grid to find his answer. Jesus said both the sin of lust and the act of adultery were worthy of condemnation (not with equal earthly consequences of course - thank God logic applies throughout scripture). He was putting the legalists on equal plane with the sinners of renown. They all needed the work he was about to do. They all needed Gods proprietary payment for sin. The Pharisees never did understand.
We all need guidance for our thought development. If Godly parents don’t do it, Sexazines or the pornonet will be happy to fill the void. So Tim, (or whomever) how do you intend to tell your child how to properly desire and channel that desire as they learn about the opposite sex? The body does have nocturnal emissions, no? Is that sin? (what of erotic dreams that we do not control?) And what do they do and how do they feel if they do slip?
I Corinthians 7:4 does not apply to this discussion without begging the question of what is being stolen in v. 5. Paul does not want one spouse to withold marital duty from the other. As long as that marital duty is being fulfilled, one spouse can masturbate all he or she wants as long as he or she is not fantasizing about anybody other than his or her own spouse.
I really want to applaud Randy (comment #29) for not only being honest about his struggles with masturbation but for also doing it while providing his real name, link to his web site, etc….unlike all those annonymous posters who will slam Tim’s site without providing any link info, etc! Such cowards!
I think it is a little sad Randy is the only person in this entire discussion who has had the nerve to admit he struggles with this sin when most studies suggest at least 97% of men Christian or not do struggle with it. We’re so concerned in this short life about keeping up a crisp, perfect little image that we discuss sin only in the realm of others being involved in it but never ourselves.
Masturbation may not be as much of a common pitfall for women but lust, fantasy, etc are things I and I would guess many other women indulge by watching chick flicks (which usually have more sex in them then most other genres), reading trashy celebrity magazines, reading romance novels (even the supposed Christian ones can get quite graphic), etc.
Anyways, again I want to give props to Randy for being so open. As sexual beings in a highly sexualized society, we’re all in this together in one way or another.
Susanna,
For you, a thankful tear. Beyond the fear of humiliation, I am now honorably humbled.
I needed that.
Listen up boys…and girls. Honesty wins.
Susanna: “crisp, perfect little image that we discuss sin only in the realm of others being involved in it but never ourselves.”
It has not been proven that masturbation is sin; so maybe it’s better not to cast the first stone.
Michael: “I basically used these passages as a way to quit smoking. I didn’t have to decide whether smoking was a sin or not, but it definitely wasn’t beneficial or constructive and I was most assuredly mastered by it.”
Glad to know that you’ve quit smoking; many people reference the verse on the body’s being the Temple of God and the Temple-destroying effects of smoking. However, what if masturbation isn’t addictive for others?
Also, would we reserve the same two verses in Corinthians for those who chew gum, either gratuitously—for its own sake—or compulsively? Why pick masturbation?
Suzanna,
I agree with your praise of Randy. But, speaking as a female, it would be foolish to always sign one’s full name when commenting on web blogs. Not that one should use anonymity to be rude, abusive, or condescending (just like we shouldn’t use anonymity to engage in cybersex and the like).
And while I haven’t been (and I’m not going to be) explicit about it, yes, I have “struggled” in this area (and, if that’s not clear enough, not always successfully). But, the books I recommended above have been life changing.
In my experience I have found it helpful not to confuse 2 issues.
One is theology and the ohter is psychology. They can effect one another they are not one and the same thing.
If a person has faith that Christ died for their sins that is all they need for right standing before God. We as humans cannot very well measure this in a person. We may see evidences but you never know what a persons real motivation may turn out to be. A very messed up person may have true faith and sorrow over their sin. Others may look and not see that. But if they are recieving their forgiveness then the Church must let them in.
Now people, believers and unbelievers, often struggle with behaviors and addictions. (I have been one of them in various areas (sex, depression, compulsive behaviors, ADD, etc). Actrually lost my family and moved to a “christian” rehab place for 1 1/2 years that was realy messed up and then I began to learn about the beauty of the Gospel message. now my wife and I are together again for over 2 years. I am 46 years old).
Changes in people occur, I think, in the psychological realm. This again can happen with believers or unbeleivers.
Now the Bible, if presented correctly, acutally gives a believer the best basis for a sound psychological foundation: secure unconditional love as seen on the Cross. But if misused the poor believer (yes believer) can actually end up “trying to please God” etc etc and his state may even deteriorate at the hands of supposedly “christian teachers”.
On the other side a person may change without the Christian message doing the work and it really is a dead work. Noble and good for them and society but dead.
When christianity makes the focus “Christ is there no you get better to proove that you really have faith” we have made it into something like being a Muslim.
So this discussion of trying to figure out “Is this sin” is seriously lacking in what it really means to be a Christian. Or at least it has presented being a Christian in a very superficial manner.
My definition for a Christian is now: One who is learning to recieve the forgivness of the daily sins that he (she) does.
I am not trying to dis this blog. It was my first visit and I am sure that their are many well meaning people who have a sincere love for God that excedds mine. But I lived with a group of 40-50 addicted men and saw how serious an incorrect use of the Bible can be. Whenever I see it I put in my comments.
Great thread. I appreciate Randy’s candor.
I don’t think hormone adjustments are the right answer (not that I think anyone was suggesting that) but I do think we could offer people more practical solutions for reducing lust that are Biblically based.
I highly recommend Everyman’s Battle by Arterburn and Stoeker. It has a lot of practical tips like “bouncing your eyes” (Job 31:1 I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl). Guys’ eyes are drawn like magnets to women. If you practice “bouncing” your eyes away long enough you start to do it reflexively.
Lust is as old as humankind, of course. But I read recently that throughout much of history most men only saw a few beautiful women in their lives, and those were fully - and usually modestly - clothed. Yet now every day we see literally hundreds of images (or real women) who are scantily clad (at best). This has a serious impact on our thought lives.
They also had a good tip about “corraling your mind,” as in being more intentional about what you think about.
They sound simple, but if you practice them they work. To state the obvious, this needs to be done in conjunction with praying and staying in the Word. Accountability groups are powerful as well, so someone will be asking you on a regular basis what you’ve been looking at.
“On the other side a person may change without the Christian message doing the work and it really is a dead work. Noble and good for them and society but dead.”
Great statement!
Leviticus 15:16-17.
Sola scriptura.
Anybody want to intereact with that verse in an unbiased way?
You said, “By now I think it should be clear that masturbation is a sin—one that ought to be repented of and one that Christians need to fight against.”
But…is it a sin if you think about your wife when your gone in Iraq on a year deployment? Don’t really think so…don’t be so quick to throw out that accusation. The scriptures don’t do it.
But yeah, it is a thing that should be avoided, and I have NEVER heard the word “autoeroticism” before, lol.
CHH,
I think that scriputre is an example of what I was talking about before. It is clear that things we don’t even have control over at times “make us unclean” and remind us that we are sinners by our very nature and of our need for the Savior’s Blood to constantly be forgiving our sins.
That’s why I am against spending so much time trying to figure out what is and is not sin. I fall short of the 10 commandments daily. That’s should be enough to keep me going to the Savior. And that should be the whole purpose of talking about sin to begin with (to show us the Glorious Christ given for us sinners). We could go on talking about “what is work on the Sabbath” like the Pharisees did and miss the whole point of the scriptures.
Is lusting after my wife sin? Probably at times. I am not a totally selfless lover most of the time (if any time at all). But she sure seems to enjoy it anyway!!! I know it and am grateful that God is covering me as I learn more about His love.
Steve S,
I think your last comment hits the nail on the head.I believe that devoting too much time and energy exploring these issues binds the conscience in ways that isn’t best for our spiritual growth. If we focus on Christ then the Holy Spirit will apply the Scripture to our hearts, in good time, where we are in need of it the most.
If our right eye offends us then we can cut it out and dispose of it. If our right hand offends us then we can do the same with it. However, I believe the point of this passage is this: It’s not our eye or our hand that cause us problems, it’s our hearts. Shall we cut them out?
We are each aware of the personal sins we struggle with in our own lives. We don’t need to elaborate on them.
As a 20-year-old single male I really enjoyed this post. I was raised in a Christian home but my parents never talked about this issue. Around 15 I did my “research” (online of course) and began to experiment. This wasn’t too often, probably once every other week or so, but it was always attached to a feeling of shame. About a year and a half ago as I really started to seek after and experience God, I became convicted in the area of purity. Up until that point I’d maintained my purity in every way (alcohol, drugs, language, pornography, etc.), but I knew masturbation was not healthy. The actual act may not be sin—because after all “it’s not mentioned in the bible”. But what I do know is it’s directly tied to lust. Any boy or man who can tell me they don’t think of any other being or another being’s body parts, whether woman, man, or animal while masturbation I would say go for it. But in my honest opinion, I don’t believe such a person exists.
Since then, I’ve learned to stop my thoughts when they point down the path that I know by experience leads to selfish sexual gratification. After over a year, I’ve still been able to abstain from sexual self-gratification. It’s always a conscious choice, but the rewards are so worth it. I am so confident in my purity, I have no shame and no guilt. I talk about this issue with my friends as often as I can because I see so many of them living in shame because of it.
On the topic of nocturnal emissions: I don’t believe these are sins at all, because after all “you can’t control it”. I do know this though: What we feed our minds and spirits affects what we dream about. I’ve noticed that if I watch movies with a lot of nudity/sex scenes, or think about sex more frequently during the day/week, I’m more prone to have dreams that repeat what I’ve seen or thought about. In that case, I believe I do have control over emissions, because that is based on what I let into my mind during the course of my day. I’m also more prone to experience emissions while sleeping in the same room of other men, especially those whom I know to have struggles with lust, pornography, etc. The spirit-realm is very real and active. When sleeping in the same room/house with people who entertain such spirits of lust, there’s bound to be some physical manifestations. One time I was staying over at someone’s house. That night I had a particularly sexual dream which I almost never have. I woke up wondering where that came from. I later found out the the guy sleeping in the room above me had his girlfriend over that night and were sleeping (or I guess I should say “not sleeping”) together. There are outside influences. I never feel shame or guilt for anything like that that happens.
Living free of selfish desires is one of the most incredible life experiences one could have. I love God with a passion, and every day set my heart to go deeper into Him and His purposes for my life.
Thank you again for this blog thread.
For those in bondage to pornography, masturbation, or other forms of sexual immorality, please visit this site: http://www.settingcaptivesfree.comIt is filled with Christ-centered, Bible-saturated hope for sinners and has been used by God to set me (and many many others) free from sexual addiction.Offering hope through the cross.Phil
Please don’t take offense here:
“After over a year, I’ve still been able to abstain from sexual self-gratification. It’s always a conscious choice, but the rewards are so worth it. I am so confident in my purity, I have no shame and no guilt”.
Not to be mean here but that type of thinking is what concerns me about this whole thing. Does abstaining make you pure or mean that you are pure?
You can be confident in something about your learning to control yourself just like a soccer player that has learned he can have confidence in scoring a goal in certain situations. But I wonder if purity has anything to do either of them. A nonchristian can abstain and it has nothing to do with purity as God sees it. Christian do the same thing and confuse it with purity.
I am pure only because of one reason: He gave His purity to me and that is what God sees instead of the wretched mess that I am.
When I think that I am more pure than the next guy I’ve missed the point. When I think that I am more pure then I was a day ago what happens when I find something in me that shows that I am not pure 2 days from now? Can’t base our Christianity on those things.
All valid arguments, regardless of whether or not the premises are true or false.
Bottom line is, isn’t this a bit much ado about nothing? Seems like this is a rather peripheral issue.
Now, I know that the traditional fundamentalist perspective is to set up little peripheral issue traps, just waiting for someone to say, “isn’t this a rather small, peripheral issue?” That’s when the fundamentalist manages to, through a string of strange connections, tie in the peripheral issue with an essential Christian perspective, thus justifying the fundamentalist’s view on the particular subject no longer peripheral, but absolutely essential by relation.
This goes back to what I have mentioned a few times in my responses on this blog: Christians can sit around and cherry-pick their pet topics all day long in an effort to display their supposed piety. The sad thing is, we Christians would SO much rather stand inside the circle and point out all the problems outside the circle.
The classic example that has plagued fundamental churches ever since Dobson and the likes decided to make it a wedge issue: A bunch of heterosexual WASP Sunday-dress-up Republican churchgoers crowded into pews listening to a pastor condemn homosexuality.
For what purpose?
“Look at how righteous I am.”
Just because I have never had cancer does not make me a cancer survivor.
So…anyways, If I was in Iraq for a year and masturbated thinking about my wife, I don’t see it as wrong. Lets move on now…
OK, I think this thread has reached the end of its usefulness and then some, so I’m shutting it down.