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The Death of a Tyrant
- 12/30/06
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"Saddam Hussein, among the world's most brutal dictators, struggled briefly after American military guards handed him over to Iraqi executioners. But as his final moments approached, he grew calm. Dressed in a black coat and trousers, he clutched a Qur'an as he was led to the gallows, and in one final moment of defiance, refused to have a hood pulled over his head.
After a quarter-century of remorseless brutality that killed countless thousands and led Iraq into disastrous wars against the United States and Iran, Saddam was executed before sunrise Saturday." (link)
I sat almost transfixed last night, waiting for the news to be released--news that Saddam Hussein had finally been executed. I was struck by the thought that it is easy to see men like Hussein as somehow more than human. Or maybe less than human. It is interesting to watch the video footage taken shortly after his capture by U.S. forces. A doctor is poking and prodding him, peering into his mouth and looking through his hair. His beard is long and untrimmed, his hair wild and askew. And then there is the footage of him being led to the gallows (footage that is available at any major news web site). It is easy to feel a bit of sympathy watching another human being forced to his death. Suddenly this tyrant appears so human, so frail.
It is difficult to know how to react to something like this. How is a Christian to react to the death of a man such as Hussein? As I thought about this, it seems that we have cause both to mourn and to rejoice.
We can rejoice in the fact that justice has been done. Hussein's atrocities are horrendous (you can read a list of them here) and impacted countless millions. He made a mockery of the position of power he was given. The Bible tells us that it is God who assigns leaders to the nations and Hussein violated the position of authority, using it to enrich himself, to enslave others, and to reign with brutal terror. The moniker "the Butcher of Baghdad" was well-earned.
We can also rejoice in mercy. It is in mercy that God has given the power of the sword to governments so they can act in restraining evil. These governments are charged with punishing those who do wrong so they can restrain further acts of sin and violence and so they can bring to justice those who have forsaken the laws of God seen dimly in the laws of the lands.'
We can rejoice in God's goodness. It was God's goodness that allowed a new government to take the place of Hussein's and to bring an end to his reign of terror. And it was justice that caused them to end his life. God's justice is never in conflict with His goodness. Tozer says, "To think of God as we sometimes think of a court where a kindly judge, compelled by law, sentences a man to death with tears and apologies, is to think in a manner wholly unworthy of the true God. God is never at cross-purposes with Himself. No attribute of God in in conflict with another." To rejoice in the death of Saddam Hussein, to rejoice in the execution of justice, is to rejoice in the justice of God, the goodness of God and the mercy of God. When the Iraqi authorities, having weighed the evidence and proven that Hussein was guilty of crimes deserving death, brought an end to Hussein's life, they imitated God in these attributes (though they surely had no idea they were doing so).
And so we can rejoice in the execution of this tyrant. We can rejoice that justice has been done. At the same time, we must not rejoice wrongly. We must take no wrongful pleasure in the death of another person. Death is an unnatural state for humans and one that should always remind us of our state of fallenness. Were it not for our sin there would be no death. And always we must remember that the sin that filled Hussein is the same sin which lives within all of us. Were it not for the restraining hand of God, were it not for His grace, any of us could commit acts equally horrific.
We must never make light of the fact that Hussein is, in all likelihood, in hell now. And, as difficult as this may be to believe, all the pain and torture and devastation Hussein caused in his life, either directly or indirectly, is as nothing compared to what he is experiencing now and what he will experience for all of eternity. We must never, ever make light of hell as the eternal destination of any man.
Hussein's death is a testament to the depravity of humans, but it is also a testament to the justice, mercy and goodness of God. It is a time to mourn at the state of mankind, but also to marvel at the power and sovereignty of God.
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Comments (43)
"How is a Christian to react to the death of a man such as Hussein?"
I think you've demonstrated a pretty good answer to that question here. Thanks for the excellent post.
Kyle
I'm so glad you wrote on this. Watching Saddam at the gallows this morning, I was saddened as I noticed how helpless he was at the inevitability of his execution. It almost seemed as if he was in disbelief - the unthinkable is happening, he must of thought: "I'm actually going to die." I imagine that that same thought runs through all the minds of anyone who has ever been executed.
What a sobering reminder of the power of sin and its effect on mankind. Some people would characterize Saddam as being "just crazy." However, I would argue that we are all capable of becoming "crazy" if sin is allowed to dwell and grow inside all of us unhindered. What would you think about that?
Tim, good post...much to ponder.
>i>We can rejoice in the fact that justice has been done.
This one is a little tougher for me to rejoice in I think, because - as you mentioned - we need to be careful of how we rejoice over this event.
I hope we would rejoice over God's mercy toward us more than rejoicing that justice has been done to another human being...lest we end up celebrating with satan that another person has just experienced what it is like to wake up in perdition.
A similar--yet different post than Steve Camp did on his blog--her'es what I commented on his blog-
"We do need to remember justice--I agree--and God is just. I am glad though that God did provide a way for us to be just with Him, since we can not do it on our own. Due to our fallen nature, any of us could have committed the sins of Saddam Hussein--but by God's mercy & grace He holds most of us back. And through His Son He saves a people for Himself--without checking who deserves it. (If He did that--nobody would get saved.)
And I am glad this wasn't a gleeful post of celebration. God is just--but He doesn't celebrate the death of the wicked."
I thought it applied here as well. Good post--looking at it from all sides...
Excellent summary.
That saddest part of the whole ordeal, to me, was to learn of the Iraq people dancing in the street over his death.
There is a difference between God of the Christian and the god of the Muslim. Our God tells us not rejoice when our enemy has fallen.
"We can rejoice in the fact that justice has been done."
There is a sober rejoicing in the sword of civil government that reflects the rejoicing of the saints in God's judgments, always true and righteous. (As in Revelation 19.) Though we are sinful and limited right now and always have to watch out for that.
God executes His justice through imperfect civil government.
The more I think about this, the more inclined I am to mourn than rejoice. This is not some anti-death penalty mourning, but a mourning for the soul of someone who appears to now be spending eternity being judged rather than having had the righteousness of Christ imputed to their account.
Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. - James 4:9
I agree with Brian - there is more to mourn about here than to rejoice. Frankly, the reasons Challies listed of why we should rejoice evince more about his right-wing Bush-loving WASPish beliefs than about his Christian faith. (If you disagree with me on this last point, let me guess: you're also a right-wing Bush-loving wasp?).
This is not a time to rejoice. It is a time of sober reflection and quietude.
Furthermore, I cannot "marvel at the power and sovereignty of God." Justice may have prevailed this time, but for every hung dictator, hundreds more prevail unscathed. Far from marveling at the power and sovereignty of God, I - on dwelling on the evil iso prevalent in the world - often pray with anguish at His apparent lack of power and impotence to stem evil.
I'm going to disagree with you John (and point out that I'm neither right-wing nor Bush-loving). Rejoicing that justice has been done is not necessarily a gleeful dancing in the streets. It's a rejoicing that even in this world when so much seems so broken and we spend so much time in tears and when those who are evil seem to prosper that God still lends us hope that at the end, there is true justice and true mercy.
We don't rejoice that a man burns in hell. We rejoice that his atrocities are finished.
You mention that God seems impotent to do anything about those that remain in power - but a time will come when they will face God also. We all will. It is arrogant to assume that things will continue as they always have when you don't have infinite knowledge. God stays His hand for a reason and it might very well be to your benefit. We screwed this world up, God does not HAVE to deliver us from anything - we don't deserve a good thing we get on this earth. We are the perpetrators of a crime against God. That God allows any justice to be executed or any mercy granted is grace.
Again, I'm not a Bush-fan, nor do I consider myself right wing (just because you're a Christian does not make you a Republican, that's a false connection). Interestingly enough if I remember correctly Challies is Canadian (I'm new to the blog). I guess he could be Bush loving if he wanted to be, but what good would it do him if he couldn't have even voted for the guy?
Thanks challis for an excellent review of how God acts through the civil magestrate. The unfolding of the whole sordid Iraq affair makes one think - is God really sovereign over the affairs of men. Absolutely. He uses the unbeliever to bring justice to a nation which has suffered at the hands of a tyrrant. He causes the death of such a one as Suddam. Yet we don't know His plans or purposes throug hall this. Surely He has his people in Iraq whom will come into the church at His timing. What makes me sad though is that from the outside - as an Australian - the name of christianity has been brought through the gutter with this awful war. The lies, the atrocities, the self righteous acts of the coalition of the (k)willing, the machinations of people in high places, the fuzzy theology of so many in USA - which so directs so much middle eastern policy, the self ambition to secure the oil of Iraq etc etc... all these mean that the church needs to pray for the nations and their leaders who have acted in many ways so dishonestly. Pray for forgiveness, for repentence... that God would hold His hand of judgement against we of these nations. We (ie the coalition of the willing) have the blood of innocents on our hands - let us mourn that.... we are not far from Saddam in this respect.
He may agree with me, but I'd prefer NOT to be grouped with John Lee's views contained in his post. I just wanted to make that clear.
Thank you.
Yes, just in case there was any confusion, my agreement with Brian on one point/issue does not necessarily mean I've given a carte blanche endorsement of everything else he's stated.
That certainly was a close call. Glad we got that cleared up.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, indeed.
I wrote a blog on this topic last night about 90 minutes after word of Saddam's execution came across the news wire. Here is the direct link to it. http://un-heardvoice.blogspot.com/2006/12/saddam-hussein-hanged.html
Go read it and comment on it.
John said:
"I often pray with anguish at His apparent lack of power and impotence to stem evil."
John I've just visited your own blog to see 'where you're coming from', and see that you are very open and free with your thoughts and critiquing of the church in the west (ie esp USA). For this I am grateful. You say you are a 'calvinist' - by this I presume you believe in the sovereignty of God. Scripture alone forces us to this conclusion. It is only natural to question - 'where is God' - just take a look at Job. (I know you said - 'an apparent lack'). I have no doubt that God is all powerful and that he is not impotent - in fact he is omnipotent. I'm sure you also believe that - even though you seem to be saying otherwise. You would not be the first to ask God why?
For me, I'm asking why evangelical christians seem so sure that they know all the answers for the world's wrong, but are so blinkered when it comes to advising those who make some sort of profession of faith. As an outsider looking into USA, I cringe that the mainstream, reformed evangelical church is so silent when it comes to the bankrupt materialistic nation of america. The church is silent that the USA nation is one of the biggest rapist and pilligers of the world's resources. The nation of USA keeps millions in poverty in other countries because of it's trade policies. Martin Luther King was so prophetic in the 60's when he spoke of the judgement which will come on America, if America does not change its ways. America (through it's leaders and endorsed by the church) has begun an immoral war and occupation of an Islamic nation. Only God knows the end from the beginning. I pray that the church would wake up in America.
(And that comes from a WASP .... but no lover of Bush... only of God).
As always, Tim you write with a God graced wisdom that is rare indeed in this day.
TO ME: The travesty is that this man and his brutal demagogic ideology will not die with him. The remaining zealots who continue to detonate their bombs of ignorance, hatred and shrapnel in the presence of babies, children, women...and all God's life need to do us all a favor. They need to huddle up by themselves in the desert outside Tikrit and blow themselves up there alone!
A little over a hundred years ago our own nation went through its own civil war that killed more Americans than any war since. That war was just as senseless. The New Iraq must go through its own birth pangs. There is much more death and horror to come.
Saddam who? Where is the list of the 68 names of those kindred human beings on the bus that was demolished by the devils dynamite today (massacring folks just like me and you - except brought up without the opportunity to appreciate the Glorious Gospel preached in the Land of the Free). I look for the name of one Iraqi Child that has died as this Muslim Religious War rages on; that Child is who I morn today. Where has the Iraqi Muslim’s sense of justice and compassion for that Child gone?
Excellent thoughts Tim. Thanks.
There's definitely a bitter-sweetness to this justice being done. Feeling good, and sad at the same time.
God's glory is our ultimate purpose. Whatever brings Him glory, whether He is showing mercy, or sending His righteous judgement, we need to glory in His works.
"Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, .... Come out of her My people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. ... And she will be utterly burned with fire, for the Lord God is strong, who judges her. ....
'Rejoice over her, o heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!' " Rev. 18:2,4-5,20
I "commented" in my own blog on Saddam Hussein's execution by pulling together scripture to show how God handled other prideful, evil rulers. It can be found here: http://theniche.wordpress.com/2006/12/30/saddam-hussein-and-the-rulers-of-this-world/
Also, you may find an excellent line of thinking from Lee Podles at the Touchstone Magazine blog here: http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2006/12/hussein_and_pun.html
I was reading this morning about the "trial" and execution of Jesus and the release of Barabbas. It occurred to me that our Lord was given not even the slightest attempt at a fair trial, while Saddam was heard and evidence was considered and Barabbas got away with murder. I rejoice in the fact that God has given us the grace of government to be God's servant in restraining evil. I also rejoice in the death of Christ my Savior who became sin for me and took the punishment that I deserve. When considering another man's death, I remember what Jesus said when told about those Galileans whom Pilate killed. "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish." (Luke 13) I'm thankful for God's grace because apart from Him, I'm no better than Saddam and deserve the same.
I wonder what it is like to anticipate 72 virgins, only to face 72 harpies. It is a sad indictment of the West that justice on the macro scale is only effected in a pagan land.
"The Bible tells us that it is God who assigns leaders to the nations..."
Is that true? Because statisticaly (at least of the records kept over the past century or so) you're far more likely to be persecuted, tortured and killed by your own government than by anything else. And I'd say that that were the case down through time.
Also, the U.S. government sanctions, and the tax payers fund, far more murder through abortion, than Saddam ever dreamed of.
Yes, a tyrant has been brought down. But it was done by an outside force, not a civil government of Iraq itself. Were the governments involved in the coalition actively seeking God's will and guidance in their actions? I rather doubt it. The action succeeded only because God allowed it to happen, but He allows all sorts of things to occur that not according to His true desires. In my opinion, we followed our own agenda, and we were wrong to do so.
I think of the situation in 1 Samuel 13, where Saul was not patient enough to wait for Samuel, but went ahead and acted on his own.
I'm afraid we have opened a situation in Iraq that will be much more long lasting and deadly than what was terminated.
Take Care
Couldn't have said it better myself, Tim.
I linked to an interesting (if unflinching) 4-page obituary which chronicles the rise and fall of Mr. Hussein.
Good post. I think this helps many of us explain what took place
Saddam gets into power and as a result thousands of innocent men women and children are brutally murdered and butchered. Was God responsible for this? Of course not. We have free will don't we and then there is that former favourite fallen angel. Then the Yanks kick him from power and put in place the process that brings him to justice. Glory Hallelujah. Thank God. God is good. God is merciful. Yeah right! Tell that to Saddam and to all the people he murdered. This is called having a bet each way. Evil is committed-no way- not God. Evil is stopped. Hurray, God did it. Why did he allow it in the first place? Atheism is growing fast and no wonder.
Could you try that again in coherent sentences?
Tim,
"We can rejoice that justice has been done..." through the execution of Sadaam Hussein.
I am going to have to disagree on this one, Tim. Nothing about our presence in Iraq seems just to me. The behavior or the Bush Administration and the House and Senate is beyond reprehensible not to speak of cowardly.
Our troops are not to be used as a personal police force for any man, especially the President. He is to represent out national interests globally, not the interests of the privileged elite oligarchy which seems to run our foreign policy.
Though Hussein was apparently very brutal to many of the people of Iraq, I do not believe it is our place to invade a sovereign nation under the pretense of freedom in order to establish a more "managable" political alliance.
We need to be ashamed that we have allowed the wholesale gutting or our constitution in the name of national interests---the pretense---when in fact the issue is a very personal and private war between the Bush's and an unruly ally (SH) whom we put in power once upon a time.
Corporate interests will be our undoing.
I appreciate the article, Tim, yet in my view, it is written with the accent on the wrong syllable. The thesis of this article is how we should respond to the execution to Saddam Hussein. Unfortunatley, the article appears to presuppose that capital punishment is a just and reasonable conclusion for evil-doers, even for one as despotic as Saddam Hussein.
We are all held to account before God, and at times man, for all that we have done -- so also will (and did) Saddam Hussein. The list of the inconceivable brutality he brought on his country is irrefutable: his sentence, though, could and should have been that of a life- long and inescapable prison term.
Justice serves the Kingdom of God. And the death penalty for sin is a truth of which Christians are intimately familiar. Good Friday is the proof of that reality. But equally true, and more emphatically for the New Testament church, mercy serves the Kingdom of God in an even greater capacity. Easter Sunday is proof of *that* reality.
Even though I consider myself an evangelical Christian, it is deplorable to me that so many other evangelical Christians do not reconsider the death penalty as a violation of the sanctity of life - that life of all humankind that is so loved by God that "He gave His only begotten son".
---
In terms of the present political environment in the Middle East, Amnesty International wrote recently,"The execution of Saddam Hussein is a major blow to the process of establishing the truth of what happened under his rule, and as such another squandered opportunity for Iraqis to find out about and come to terms with the crimes of the past."
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE144302006
So Saddam' death is a hollow victory for justice - the continuing "gift" of his life could have presented the various factions in Irag an opportunity to consider that "eye for an eye", "bomb for a bomb justice" will never lead to an earthly peace for that embattled region.
The court of Iraq could have made a statement beyond the pale: the death of Saddam Hussein will not lead to peace, neither will the death of any other Iraqi citizen lead to peace.
David - Admittedly I premised my article on the understanding that capital punishment is appropriate, at least for mass murderers. I did not attempt to defend my position because, well, that would have taken things far outside the scope of what I wanted to discuss. So if you do not believe in capital punishment (again, at least in the case of mass murderers) you won't find much to like in the article, I suspect.
Quote by Gert Roewer:
"Atheism is growing fast... "
Atheism in not growing. Apathy, or more correctly, ignorance seems to be what is growing. In fact, it is an apathy that leads to ignorance. It is growing to the extent that people are no longer investigating the great questions of life on an intellectual basis; questions like, "Why are we here? Why is anything here as opposed to nothing? What is the point of all this? What is the end of all this.?, etc." It is much easier to claim atheism, without really thinking it through, than it is to accept that perhaps we are not the measure of all things and the center of our own reality.
Take Care
John K implies that atheists (meaning me in this instance) are apathetic, ignorant, have not investigated the great questions of life on an intellectual basis, claim atheism without thinking it through, and think they are the measure of all things and the centre of our own reality. What about fat and bald. Did you forget those insults? John, making personal attacks in ignorance of the truth as a debating tactic is typical of someone who has no answers. If you had been born into a society that inculcated their children into worship of the tooth fairy, (instead of Jaweh/Allah/or any of dozens of other "Gods") that would be the platform you would be throwing insults from. In actual fact YOU have not thought it through. You are just repeating parrot fashion the cliches and put downs you have been taught, should anyone dare to "think it through" and come to a conclusion that does not agree with your medieval fairy tale dogma.
Gert Roewer,
As I read it, John K is not at all implying that you are any of those things. He is only responding to your statement that atheism is growing fast and pointing out that your sweeping generalization might not be so simple and true as you might like it to be. First of all, faith might be declining is certain regions or nations, but is growing rapidly in others. Also, the label of atheist does not necessarily fit everyone who does not profess faith.
But that is beside the point. Your point is really that you do not believe in God because He either allows evil or is helpless to stop it. So He’s either unfair or weak, and in either case, He doesn’t seem very God-like. But whether or not you think that God seems fair is not what makes Him real or not real. So instead of being angry that God doesn’t do as you think He ought or that people believe in Him despite what you think they ought, please consider that some people might very well have weighed the same issues and have real reasons for the faith that we have. Why did you feel compelled to join this conversation if you think we all just believe in medieval fairy-tale foolishness? Why does it bother you so much that we believe in God?
Scott
Hello Gert,
My reply was not intended to be a personl insult to you. It was an observation on atheists in general. I didn't expect you to take it any more personally than I take general insults to my own faith, such as you have put forward in your posts.
As for my own situation, I was not indoctrinated in Christianity since youth, as you put it. I came to a knowledge of God and faith in Christ when I was 45. Therefore I have been on "both sides of the fence," so to speak. Not only so, but recently enough that I can remember both sides. You have only experienced one side, so you can have no idea what the other side is like from personal experience. I have another advantage in that I can now say that I am absolutely confident in my position, whereas you cannot, because you cannot know, with 100% certainty, that there is no God.
In addition, regarding the accusation on behalf of some atheists that Christianity is only for the simple minded, I would submit that there have been more great intellects of faith throughout history than those professing atheism, so I consider myself in good company in that regard as well.
Take Care
PS:
Just for the record, I do not conside all atheists to be fat and bald.
Take Care
The verse that came to mind is the following:
"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked" Ezekiel 33:11
Nevertheless, Tim, I felt like I understood your emphasis as rejoicing in justice done, rather than rejoicing in his death.
Keep in mind, all, when taking in the retrospectives of Saddam's reign of terror, that the U.S. government (like all governments) suppresses such information when it suits their interests to do so, and promotes such information when it suits their interests to do so. I don't believe I'll ever read a headline that says, "Secretary X Meets with Butcher to Discuss Arms Sale."
To Scot and John K,
What John said was not ambiguous. He clearly equated atheism with apathy and ignorance. My "fat and bald " remark was sarcasm intended as humour (Yes I know the lowest kind of humour) My original comments were also unambiguous and these have not been addressed. So to simplify-why is it that when bad things happen, according to believers, God is not responsible, and when acts of man (or nature) create a fix- God gets the credit? For example the recent bushfires in Australia were mostly the result of lightning strikes. They caused devastation on a huge scale. When finally there was a cold spell combined with the unrelenting efforts of the firefighters, some control was gained over the fires, many people were thanking God. I ask, if God put the fires out why did he light them in the first place? This was the point I made about Saddam. An evil man allowed to commit his horrors for nigh on thirty years. When finally stopped by man, God gets the credit.
Further, the assumptions you two make about me, and what and why I believe it are breath taking. Scott, I am not angry about God's actions because don't believe that there is a god. I am not angry at all. My reasons for not believing in the existence of a God are far more complex and well thought out than you seem to think. Too big a topic for this forum. My problem is my frustration with people of faith-as I put it "having a bet each way" with what they attribute to God. And what else can Atheism be other than a disbelief in God? And John, if you read my last post carefully, you would have noticed that I did not say that you HAD been indoctrinated as a child (inculcated was the word actually). You will notice a little word there -IF. Bit of kneejerk there? Scott says I make sweeping generalisations. Don't know about that but you certainly do. You actually say that you do. Also what do you know of my background? Absolutely Nothing. Therefore you can't know what I know, or what I have experienced, or if I can understand your strong belief. I will say however that I don't have the slightest problem with yours or anyone else's faith, in fact (you might find this hard to believe) your desire to be a good Christian person has my respect. All I ask is that you allow me the same courtesy to believe what I will. My certitude is as firm as yours. Therefore a debate on the matter is utterly pointless.
Finally your points scoring "Great intellects of faith" comment is a specious argument. What was the ratio of believers to non-believers during the time period you refer to? Wouldn't this be relevant?
Oh one more thing, ok you did not intend to personally insult me. I accept that. And if I insulted you or your faith---well, you started it.
Gert,
If I could ask one question, or perhaps two.
What do you think of the Bible?
And what do you think of Jesus Christ?
And to be specific with the Bible, if you like, what do you think of the Apostle John's first Epistle, and the Apostle Peter's 2nd Epistle?
I'd be very interested in your thoughts.
Well, Gert, you said it yourself – a debate is pointless. So why then do you again ask for answers to your original questions about why Christians attribute credit to God for certain things? It seems to me that if debate is pointless, then so is our conversation. Yet despite your asserted lack of anger or desire to debate, you again initiate the conversation. But for what? You say you only ask the same courtesy that you extend- to believe what you will- but I’ve done that from the start.
I claim no knowledge of your background, only that your words made you sound agitated or angry, so I apologize if I mischaracterized you. I did not say your reasons for not believing in God are simple. I only tried to rephrase your question about why Christians are apparently happy to believe in an unfair God.
Well, perhaps I’m a glutton for punishment, but I have a simple answer to your question, though I think you’ll find it unacceptable. Why does bad happen for which Christians don’t give God credit? Because there is evil in the world and God allows it. Why do Christians give God credit for good sometimes (and some all the time- perhaps even wrongly at times)? Because Christians believe that God does help us and does cause good. This is overly simplistic, but the question is not difficult to understand.
So again, my question for you is valid – why did you even feel compelled to join the conversation if debate is pointless because you are so certain of what you believe?
I just find it interesting that you are even interested in Christians, God, or anything of the nature. If you don’t believe in God, all of this should be irrelevant and meaningless to you. But it agitates you that people have faith in God despite all of your complex reasons for not believing. Interesting.
Donsands, sorry my friend but you won't drag me into a Bible analysis debate. Not that I can't. I won't. Sorry to disappoint you as I am sure you have every conceivable answer that I may give ready to be shot down in flames . I am not interested.
Scot you appear a little rattled because you are obviously not reading my posts carefully. You are not the only one by the way. When you have a believer, and a non-believer, both having 100% certitude, then a debate about faith is pointless, because it will get nowhere. That was my point. There are other issues being discussed here as well . You ask me why I felt compelled to join the debate. What debate? What were the two sides when I joined? I joined and made some comments that went against the general theme. And "felt compelled" is pretty strong language. "interested" is a better description of my feelings on the matter. Now it appears to be a debate . When I am called apathetic, ignorant, and don't think things through I FEEL COMPELLED to respond. You and others appear to have taken offence because you think I have criticised your faith. I have not! Once again you make baseless assumptions about me and attribute characteristics to me that you think I have or should have. THAT agitates me. But you say that I am agitated because people have faith in God. Drawing a bit of a long bow here. Have a read through all the previous posts and see where the agitation really lies.
I thank you Scot for at least attempting to address my puzzlement in my original post. You are right however that it doesn't satisfy me.
"There is evil in the world and God allows it" What about the good in the world? Does God just "allow " this or is he directly responsible?. You are right that this does not mean anything to me because I don't believe in a God. What matters to me is the duality of people of faith, failure to give credit where credit is due, and the frenzied malevolence of some so called Christians when their faith is questioned. (Not referring to anyone on this forum with the last comment) .
Why would you assume that because I do not share your beliefs, that I have no interest in discussions on this or any related matters? Do you think that being an atheist makes me an intellectual cripple? The general theme of your posts seems to be that I shouldn't even be here. Once again have a read back through the related posts and you will see almost everything that has been said to/about me has been of a critical personal nature. Play the ball, not the man.
I wish you well and I understand that your faith gives you comfort and certainty. I have no doubt that if you live by the Christian creed that you are a good and worthwhile person. Despite being at times AGITATED and COMPELLED I have enjoyed our discussion. Forgive me if I seem like a last word freak, but this will be my last post. I am sure you won't mind. I will however check for any replies.
May your God be with you.
Hi Gert,
Thanks for responding again.
You say a debate about faith is pointless. I maintain that while there are other issues being discussed, they all pretty much center on faith. So in essence, I doubt that you would be very open to what any believer has to say if you are so certain about what you believe.
But I’m certainly not saying that you are not welcome or that you don’t belong. On the contrary, I’m glad you are joining the conversation. All I’m saying is that I find it interesting that you are interested in religious topics. Not because you aren’t intellectual or something, but that I would think religion would be silly to an atheist. However, that seldom seems to be the case. I often find atheists to be very interested in the God they claim not to believe in.
I might be wrong about you, but I think you are in this forum asking questions for a reason. First of all, I could see someone like you being curious about the faith of true believers and wondering if you might have missed something in all of your complex intellectual wanderings. On the flip side, I imagine someone like you might also want to find Christians to be without answers so that you will feel vindicated and more assured of your atheism.
So it is this curiosity and uncertainty (not necessarily yours) that I find interesting. Most atheists are not as certain as they claim to be, as is evidenced by their seemingly disproportionate interest in matters of faith. I expect that you will have some reason to disagree, and that is fine, for anything less would be an admission of the uncertainty that you have already denied.
I wish you well too, Gert, and I pray that my God gets a hold of you some day.
Quote by Gert:
"What was the ratio of believers to non-believers during the time period you refer to? Wouldn't this be relevant?"
No, I don't think so. I realize that this is not a point you raised, Gert, but I find it a standard argument in the atheist arsenal, that theists are gullible and/or somehow less intelligent than so-called "free thinkers." If this were the case, those of higher intellect in any age should have been able to see through the theist "myths", but actually, the opposite is true.
I have said more about my "ignorance and apathy" remarks today on my own blog, with which I'm confident you'll disagree.
Take Care
Gert,
I can understand that. I have a couple friends who don't believe in God. When we see each other we talk about all kinds of things that we both enjoy: the Orioles, the Ravens, and other things as well.
Sometimes my friend Pete will bring up things like evolution, and then we talk, and respect one another, and it can get a little heated, but we part friends. And there are others where we part enemies, and that's alright to.
May the Gospel find its way into your heart is my prayer for you Gert. Amen.