“I think you are overlooking the Great Commission”

Oh, not at all. I totally agree that we as believers are to go into the world and preach the gospel. That is precisely the point…we are commanded to go into the world. The PD church methodology reverses that command and asks the world to come unto it. It seeks to attract the world by trying to eliminate what it would see as hinderances to why people avoid church. But getting people to church to hear the gospel is not what the great commission is all about, nor what Paul so diligently teaches throughout his epistles regarding the role of the church.

As for the “hinderances”, I have no issues with churches utilizing contemporary worship or choosing other style ‘preferences’ that may deviate from traditional stylistic forms. My issue is with their choice to deviate from declaring the whole counsel of God in teaching the Word, in preference to shallow teaching to attract the crowd.

It presupposes that their methodology and not God’s word through illumination of the Holy Spirit draws men to Jesus. Such arrogance flies in the face of Paul’s admonition in 2 Corinthians 2:4-5, “And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God”.(NAS)

Most churches today have ceased to proclaim the whole counsel of God by teaching the word. Instead, they have opted for positive topical messages to attract the crowd. Of course, the PD church along with other CGM institutions proclaim that indepth teaching takes place in the context of the small group. In referencing their own materials, the church structure is designed to slowly draw people into mature Christianity (around the baseball diamond, or into the core of the circle).

Aside from having no biblical basis, this strategy is often not what it proclaims itself to be. Having endured a PD church for several years, and been involved with small groups that utilize Warren’s study guides, I can say that the teaching in that context remains shallow. Warren proclaims that we are to adopt contemporary means without compromising our message. But compromise he does in acts of commission by misusing scripture to promote his methodology, and acts of ommission by failing to teach the whole counsel of God.

Time will fail me if I attempt to introduce many other misguided and unbiblical features of the PD church such as their system and training in membership, church unity, campaigns, commercialism, books, materials, and other systems disigned to circumvent the truth that it is Jesus who builds the church and Jesus through the Holy Spirit who draws men unto Himself. The whole of this complex system does not resemble the simplicity of the operation of the church as outlined in the New Testament. It assumes the burden of being under law, that if ‘such and such’ is done, then ‘such and such’ will happen.

It does not surprise me that the church is so willing to enter into compromise. We have grown accustomed to following prey to the methods and marketing of men in regards to the church and our spirituality. This won’t stop with either the Purpose Driven church or Purpose Driven Life. No doubt, the sequel is being planned. No doubt, another writer envious of Warren’s success is planning his own strategy for the Christian and the church.

It is sad and it is devastating. The reliance on methodology presumes that the Bible is insufficient, and that somehow our culture demands something more than the mere word of God. It concludes that for the church to be successful, it must adopt the complex systems of corporate America. It fails to acknowledge that only Jesus builds the church. It looks at Peter’s discourse in Acts 2 when 3,000 were saved, and analyzes his methods and strategy. It fails to take into account the faithfulness of simply proclaiming His word, and then watching the Holy Spirit draw people to Christ.

ScottyMac, thanks for a thoughtful post. I don’t necessarily disagree with you about some of the specific methods of “purpose driven” or “seeker sensitive” churches, and in particular I agree with your emphasis the need for robust expository teaching. But, I still think there’s a missiological nugget here that’s worth saving.

In particular, I strongly disagree with your assessment of church planting as not “going into the world” but instead reversing the Great Commission and asking the world to come to the church. Church planting is a widely and historically used missiological tool. Your critique could applied to the tiny house churches started by pioneer missionaries in Muslim countries as easily as it applies to “postmodern” churches in U.S. cities. I think that goes too far.

And just one other aside — for all the rhetoric here about fidelity to scripture, the reference to an “admonition” in 2 Corinthians 2:4-5 is particularly misplaced. It’s actually 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, it’s not an “admonition” but rather a description of Paul’s conduct among the Corinthians, and in the context of 1 Cor. 1:10 through the remainder of chapter 2 and into chapter 3, it’s clear that the passage relates to disputes in the Corinthian church arising from claims by some other preachers (e.g., Apollos and Cephas) of superiority over Paul. The passage, then, is about unity and humility within the church fellowship. It has nothing to do with methodology.

I agree with much of the criticism of PDL, though some of the talk of Warren taking over your church seems a little alarmist. Nevertheless, I don’t see why anyone would want to use a resource that has so many frequent mis-uses of Scripture. At one point in the video series for home groups Warren says, “God is going to build your character by putting you through everything Jesus went through.” Yes, that’s what he says in week 4. After I hear something like that, I wonder why bother sorting through this mishmash in order to pluck out the occasional routine truth. Mature Christians don’t need it, and young ones cannot be expected to have the discernment to sort it out.As someone else said above, the only really good thing about it is that it makes you hunger all the more for the pure Word.

Good discussion here - I have been through the PD paradigm, even working on staff at a church that recently won a “PD Church Health Award.” And I can tell you that the church is anything but healthy - yes, large numbers are showing up on Sundays and are involved in a mountain of programs, but it really is not even a church. Is the Word faithfully preached? No not really - it’s more of the self-actualizing “pseudo-Christian” teaching that slices and dices the Bible. Are the sacraments faithfully administered? No - baptisms rarely take place and the Lord’s Supper is done in an irreverent manner with no fencing of the table. Church discipline? Forget about it. So how is an organization that fails to meet the historical marks of the true church (as the Reformers set out) to be deemed “healthy”?

I don’t doubt that Warren loves God - but my fear is that he is an excellent example of how an unbiblical theology can have horrible consequences if given a large platform. Yes there are huge numbers affected by the PD movement, but sheer volume is not a mark of orthodoxy - just look at Charles Finney and the huge success he found with his poor theology! It seems that Warren (like most evangelicals) has been too easily influenced by Finney’s revivalism and has resorted to the “whatever it take to hook ‘em” mentality.

I have just been reading some of the comments above and even on other sites and it has really brought to my attention that this little book has caused so much division and hurt amongst fellow Christians. Immediately it highlighted one verse of Scripture in Romans 16:17 “Now I beseech you, brethen, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (KJV)

Now, we know that certian Christian leaders always use this verse to intimidate discerning believers who make any sort of judgement toward teachers who preach another Gospel by claiming that we are the ones causing the division. But the above verse always suggest to me that it is the individual who brings in these certain doctrines or philosophies (Purpose Drive Life) who cause the division and that we should have nothing to do with them.

An old commenatry from RL Whiteside quoted “Do not shut your eyes to what they are doing, nor make excurses for them, nor for any others who cause divisions and occassions if stumbling contrary to the gospel, but turn away from them. This means that the brethen should have no fellowship with them”

Q. Is Rick Warren causing this division I see before my eyes or are the discerning believers causing the division?

Excellent. Just read through this and I find your overview astounding. Good job, sir. Honest and viewing the entire book through the Measure of the Bible.

Excellent!

As a “christian” leader called by God Rick Warren is responsible for leading by the word of God.What is going on???????????I wanted to post some info discovered on RickWarren and others. The problems with his teachings go deeper then PDL.

It is the schedule for the National Pastors Convention 2004. http://www.nationalpastorsconvention.com/sched/sandiego/full.php.

Notice everyday starts with Labyrinthhttp://www.letusreason.org/Nam30.htm.

Session 1 Brennan Manning (christian mystic)Rickwarren quotes in PDL and promotes his books..Contemplative (centering prayer) daily.

Thursday March 11 Stretching & Yoga and Rick Warren Speaker.This is a huge web of deception.Series 2 Gary Thomas also Warren promotesMarch 12 and 13 YogaAs I continue to share the truth of God’s word I am thankful to Him that there are others He has shown this falsehood to.

This conference is sponsored by Zondervan, Leadership and Youth Specialties.clickclick( pictures from convention

Visit the Youth Specialties Web site! INFO FOUND ON THIS WEBSITEclick

Labyrinth - designed for young and old alike, thelabyrinth provides a mixture of rituals and visuals, of contemplative words and contemporary ambient music, of symbols and media to help guide the spiritual traveller.

Accepting the Embrace of God: The Ancient Art ofLectio Divina - information, examples and thoughts onthe prayer technique known as lectio divina, a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God.

Rick Warren co-authored a book with Dan Kimball

Emerging Church, Theby Dan Kimball, Rick Warren, Brian D. McLaren

Rick Warren says, This book is a wonderful detailed example of what a Purpose-Driven church can look like in a postmodern world. My friend, Dan Kimball, writes passionately from his heart, with a deep desire to reach emerging generations and culture. While my book the Purpose-Driven Church, explained what the church is called to do, Dan’s book explains how to do it with the cultural-creatives who think and feel in postmodern terms. You need to pay attention to him because times are changing.http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?ID=109

Dan Kimball explains his experience on the Labyrinth at the convention.http://www.vintagefaith.com/the_emerging_church.html

The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for NewGenerations

A”maze”ing PrayerThe labyrinth offers ancient meditation for today’shurried souls.

Dan Kimball

Coming in from the brilliant San Diego sunshine, mywife and I entered a darkened hall lit only by candlesand a dimmed chandelier. The room was silent. As oureyes adjusted, we saw several people kneeled inprayer. The setting, spirit, and solemn stillness ofthe hall told us that we had found somethingmeditative there, something spiritual.

Today’s evangelicals are accustomed towell-choreographed worship services with every minutecarefully filled with music, video, and preaching.Postmodern generations are hungering for somethingmore”an unhurried, mystery-filled, meditativeexperience that doesn’t have to fit into a preplannedtime schedule.The prayer labyrinth offers a feast to fill thathunger.

Meeting God in the middleThe labyrinth is a maze-like path similar to thosedesigned into the floors of European cathedrals duringthe Middle Ages. Christians of that time would walkthe labyrinth to aid their contemplative prayer andreflection. The labyrinths fell into disuse, and mostwere eventually forgotten or destroyed.

At the National Pastors Conference in San Diego,however, we found the labyrinth was back and given anupdate. The path was formed by black lines on a35-foot square piece of canvas laid on the floor. Weeach were given a CD player with headphones to guideour journey through the 11 stations on the path. As webegan the inward journey”toward the center of thecanvas”a gentle female voice with a British accentread a portion of John 1. She told us not to rushthrough the labyrinth, but to slow down, breathedeeply, and fully focus on God.

At the first stop, we looked at a television screencovered with complex, moving electronic wave forms. Wewere instructed to pray about and eliminate the noisewithin that interferes with God’s voice. At anotherstation we dropped small stones into water, each stonerepresenting a worry we were giving over to God. Laterwe drew on paper symbols of our hurts, prayed abouteach of them, and put them in a trash can.

After thirty minutes we found ourselves at thelabyrinth’s center, where, seated on cushions, we wereoffered the elements of Communion. The narrator readmore Scripture and reminded us how near Jesus Christis to us. There was a Bible if we desired to linger,reading and praying.

The journey outward focused on how we can be used byGod in other people’s lives. At one station we madeimpressions of our hands and feet in a box of sand,reminding us that we leave impressions on the peoplewe touch.My wife and I spent an hour in the labyrinth and foundourselves calmed and refreshed, our perspectiveuniquely restored.

We made our own prayer pathAfter the convention we knew we couldn’t keep thisexperience to ourselves. A few months later wefeatured a labyrinth as part of Graceland’s annual artevent at Santa Cruz Bible Church.

Graceland artists recreated the labyrinth with a kitwe purchased (The Prayer Path, Group Publishing),transforming one of the church’s multipurpose roomsinto a medieval prayer sanctuary. The team hung art onthe walls, draped fabric, and lit candles all aroundthe room to create a visual sense of sacred space.Over two nights we saw more than 100 people go throughthe labyrinth. It was a joy to see so many people ontheir knees communing with God through theexperiential prayer elements.

Meditative prayer like that we experienced in thelabyrinth resonates with hearts of emerginggenerations. If we had the room, we would set up apermanent labyrinth to promote deeper prayer. Untilthen, however, Graceland will continue to incorporateexperiential prayer and encourage our people to stop,quiet themselves, and pray.

Dan Kimball pastors Graceland, the ministry andworship services for the emerging culture at SantaCruz Bible Church in Santa Cruz, California.Copyright 2001 by the author or Christianity Today,Inc./Leadership journal..Fall 2001, Vol. 23, No. 4, Page 38

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/paradigm/index.htm (Link from youth specialties) Beware

In Christ Service,Melissa HarveyBrenning Manning http://www.reachingcatholics.org/beware.html Gary Thomas http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/0000/9paths.htm

Leo Van Veelen from Australia I have read the book and I have find that the book will gain you a very balaced life the bible dose say seek first the kingdom of god and all these things will be added unto you.That is what Rick Warren is saying in has book the Purpose Driven life I enjoyed the challengs in the book and if you dear give Jesus all your life and dont go back to the old life.

your comment is so short-sighted and it is NOT helpful at all! Hope you will learn to evaluate the content from where he is coming from! NOT in your own view point. yOU CANNOT COMMENT LIKE THIS LINE UPON LINE. yOU HAVE TO SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE AND IT’S REAL INTENTION!

Dear Susan,

I am very grateful for your Susan at February 3, 2004 11:36 PM opposing the teachings of Rick Warren. I thought you would be interested in my Purpose Driven Chart vs. Scripture which you can access at:

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html

I also thought you might like to know that I will be releasing a book which is a documentary exposing the false teachings, false translations, and false teachers Rick Warren promotes in his book. It will be published by Southwest Radio Church and should be available in print in a matter of weeks. However, in the meantime, I wanted to send you a complimentary review copy as a file attachment. If you would like a copy just email at rock.salt@verizon.net as I note your email is not posted on this website.

Kindest regards in Christ,

James SundquistPresidentRock Salt Publishing

I have read all of the above comments. The church where we have been members for two years just recently completed 40 days. A friend passed on some info about the deception involved in the PDL. My husband became convicted of some of the errors contained in the book, did research, and met with the pastor concerning his research. He also discussed with the pastor the way he was teaching things that contradicted long held beliefs and doctrines of our denomination, secrecy in the church as it related to deciding to use 40 days, and secrecy of the church’s financial records. He gave the pastor copies of his research. This included the following: http://www.moriel.org/discernment/purpose_driven_church.htm

http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Books_D/Rick_Warren.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm

The pastor was receptive to receiving them and was very cordial—seeming genuinely concerned that he might have used a flawed program. Imagine our surprise three weeks later (in a Sunday morning sermon preached prior to our youth minister going through a skit like performance about building and then calling the finance chairman up to present a building program that fewer than 10 people being aware of—secrecy again)the pastor announced that we were a PDC. (We have since purchased the book and recognize all the markings and also got an explanation as to why the pastor had changed his ways of doing things over the past few years. This included style of music, little communication with deacons, committees making decisions without going to the church body, and financial records kept secret.) Shortly there after the pastor called and asked my husband for a meeting. When he went into the pastor’s office (without him being aware that others would be involved) immediately behind him came the youth minister, associate pastor, and a deacon. He was questioned about giving out some info that was critical of PDC and PDl. He had given one deacon an article that recounted a person’s visit to Saddleback and another person some of web site listings of other articles relating PDC and PDL. My husband related his concerns letting them know that he could think for himself and told them that he would not “drink the cool-aid” (a reference to a Jim Jones.) Before the confrontation was over the pastor told him that by giving out the materials,he was sowing discord among the brethern and he should “stop it or leave the church”. After thinking about it briefly, my husband told them he would leave the church. He had previously made the determination that he would not stay in an apostate church so my husband’s telling them he would leave was not all that difficult. But as everyone can see this appears to be an example of the way a Rick Warren trained follower would deal with a resister. Also, going on at the church is the proposed building project that was mentioned earlier. The building and finance committees came to the church with inadequate plans with the chairman insisting that he had contacted all ministries involved to assess the needs. This proved to not be the truth unless he simply contacted the pastor who is a member of every committee. The older “pillars of the church” insisted on better planning with use of an architect while the younger members were gungho to go forward at the committee recommendation. The pastor seemed to aware of the serious division which was obovious to all would lead to a split in the church. He made little effort to ease the situation or to ask for a delay in the voting which is scheduled for next Sunday morning. This disregard and disrespect permitted by the pastor almost leads one to believe that this will be the pastor’s chance to get rid of the outnumbered “pillars”. They will not be staying in a church where their expertise is ignored and are only wanted for their funds. This is another way of getting rid of resisters—pitting one group against another.

Hostile Takeover: A generally reviled tactic in the business world of taking control of a company for personal advantage and divesting its assets without regard for that companies management, board of directors, shareholders, or workers.

Unfortunately, the Hostile Takeover has a counterpart in the evangelical world. Consider how Rick Warren has disenfranchised those who have labored a lifetime in their local assemblies.

“Be willing to let people leave the church. And I told you earlier the fact that people are gonna leave the church no matter what you do. But when you define the vision, you’re choosing who leaves. You say, “But Rick, yes, they’re the pillars of the church.” Now, you know what pillars are. Pillars are people who hold things up … And in your church, you may have to have some blessed subtractions before you have any real additions.”

Rick, through his books, conferences and simulcasts, is encouraging churches around the world to trash the gospel “once delivered” for his “new improved version” or as he calls it “vision.” And for those who oppose this gospel alien to His Word, he has a solution: make the place where we once worshipped our risen Lord so abominable that the Spirit within us will demand we leave.

A Rick Warren Takeover: What used to be a reviled tactic in the evangelical world of taking control of a local assembly for personal advantage and divesting its assets without regard for that church’s Lord, board of elders, shareholders in His Holiness, or fellow workers in the Truth.

Why is it that the world knows a “hostile takeover” when they see it, but those who call themselves “Christian” do not?

“…for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.” Luke 16:8

Hmmmmmm,anyone who wants an interesting study should look into the beliefs and teachings of men like Dallas Willard ,stephen Foster,Carl Jung,William Vaswig,Anges Sanford,etc,on of their central beliefs seems to be “Dominionism”

the porpuse driven lifeis really a good book for everyone here.

Please read Warren Smith’s new book entitled DECEIVED ON PURPOSE (Conscience Press). You can find more information on it online. I consider it a must read for all of us concerned about “Purpose Driven” anything.

For entire churches to be duped into following a paper-back book, shows incredible christian immaturity. First it was Rick Joyner’s Final Quest, which was a load of new age babble, now it’s The Purpose Driven life. Rick Warren is very clear when he states, his book doesn’t replace the bible. When we do make GOD our anchor in every part of our lifes, freedom comes, as he states. I have been struggling in many areas of my life, and it was only when i made a concious decision to allow GOD in, did change begin to happen. Once a person has made that concious decision to follow GOD, then he/she can ask for forigiveness of theirs sin and ask Yashua to come into their lives, otherwise we are taking out a life insurance policy to save us from hell! I think the book is probably geared to wards helping a person come to that decision, once they the book should be discarded. If mature christians are reading this book, then i wonder if they are really mature at all. But for whole churches to embrace the Purpose Driven Life, is very wrong!!! I found the book re-ordered my mind to realise that Yaweh is in everything and is everything, our very next breath!!

yes i do realized that there are misuse or miquotes from the bible, it is true. one will find that out. i have read the book it is so nice but then the scriptures were not specifically stated as to what specific verse, and when i tried to find it, it is not the exact quotation. but anyway the book is so nice to read, it is very refreshing…

The latest comments by Rick Warren about fundamentalism should cause any Bible-believing Christian to stop short and check which way the wind is blowing. Recently, in the Philadelphia Inquirer he is quoted “Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be ‘one of the big enemies of the 21st century.” This is why people who question the methods of his PDC movement are edged out by intimidation, sorrow, or force.

I want to have ur copy about Purpose driven life everyday by Rick warren to renewd me about how the world goes

Thank you very much ..

in Christ,

Ef

I have a Big problem with Rick Warren, especially now that he has unveiled his P.E.A.C.E Plan.

Remarkably the 5 Giants Rick describes are exactly the 10 Goals of the Un’s Millennium Development Goalshttp://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/index.html

The Problem is the UN is the most likely candidate to implement the one world religion described as existing in the end times.