Prophecy Today

Coming from a reformed perspective , I have held for long time that prophecy is primarily tied directly to the proclamation of the word of God. I have had many a debate in the past with charismatics about the nature and use of so called prophecy within the church today and how it is applied. Plus I have seen many abuses of this so called "gift" , that in turn has led people to doubt their standing before the Lord . You mentioned Wayne Grudem , who I do admire but it is one issue that I do not agree with , as I do with Piper , who allows for the possibility for many gifts to continue . I agree with Pastor MacArthur that the word of God is sufficient and complete . Plus I do hold that many confuse intuitions or feelings with prophecy . I will defiantly be ordering this book to add to my collection.

What about people like Sam Storms who is both friends with people like John Piper & Mike Bickle from the IHOP ministry in Kansas City who that's a large majority of what they live on which is modern Day prophecy?

Why are there so many "Solid" people these days which blur the lines in some of these areas? Just some things I've been pondering.

Some thoughts:

The gift of Prophecy is present in the church today, Cessationist arguments - in the end - are just arguments; and thinking that you are right because you have the best argument does not make you true - it makes you a Sophist.

This gift/anointing/task is perhaps one of the heaviest and most difficult one to carry. Many of the modern, flamboyant, and self-proclaimed "Prophets" are dangerous and self-deluded flakes. But just because you work in the factory where Monopoly money is made - does not mean that what's in Suntrust's vault is counterfeit too.

I don't believe this is the place to go into great detail; but God may never use me this way again - but in the past I have spoken prophetically and in very targeted ways, sometimes (as is the nature of the gift) completely oblivious to what I was speaking, in terms of the weight of the words. I will say, that in all of my 36 years of life and being a Christian, I have struggled more with this gift then anything else. People who are used this way - are often seemingly irrevocably touched by the process and nature of it and would more so rather have preferred to have been used in any other way then this. It is potentially condescending for an individual who has been called to carry the weight of MInistry to Laypeople upon their shoulder to take a dim view of other roles in the church and say that their's is "the hardest" or "the most necessary." An individual that God uses prophetically in a consistent manner would more often much rather be called to be a pastor, and - one might argue, some have caused problems doing what they were not called to do, in opperating outside of what they were called into in terms of their identity in the body of Christ. They would rather do anything then what they have had to do. We still try to saw our prophets in half.

The Gospel cannot be reduced to a mere safety manual and behavior guide for church members. Those who try to shut the door on the existent spiritual realities in attempts to sanitize/modernize/contextualize the nature of the Gospel, ultimately preach a different Gospel - and cause, ironically, greater detriment to the Gospel; thought they may have the purest of intentions. There is a wonderful Heaven, and a horrible, burning Hell. Spiritual Warfare exists - demons are real: Spiritual Reality is dangerous, scary, potentially unpredictable, and cannot be considered "safe" in the modern colloquial use of the term. Many modern Cessationist teachers attempt to Sanitize spiritual reality/church doctrine via reductionist methodologies that merely create and perpetuate a state of "Christian Culture" but ultimately undermine both the Church and Christ, because there has to be something beyond Culture - otherwise you are merely just advocating/perpetuating "Cultural Christianity/Christians." The extant realities inherent beyond Cultural dynamics are potentially dangerous, unsafe, and unpredictable. Failure to acknowledge this creates an Idolatry of Safety, which is the essence and conscience of Cessationist thinking.

A true prophet never contradicts the Word; but just as a Priest would be struck dead in the inner-court if he was distracted; modern pastors can struggle with getting off task, as it were, and not be struck dead. Just as Ministers are not held to a point of perfection (as priests were) neither are Prophets. Perfection in the operations of the gifts is not a part of the New Covenant. Perfection was a part of the Law, not of Christ. We are perfect in Christ - not in our efforts/gifts/operations/ministries Just as pastors are not always the best pastors - despite their spiritual gifting in that function in the body, the same is true of the Prophetic gift. It is a false teaching to implement and judge by a double standard. To assert that a prophet must always be true is to ultimately deny the intercessory nature of Christ and state that the gift is subject to perfection as would be naturally understood as required through the Old Covenant ministerial assumptions. Perfection is in Christ -not through the practice of a law/gift/ordinance.

Lastly, Ultimately - the prophetic gift may be used often in the lives of those who are often used that way - but it is also an integral part of the normative spiritual experience for Christians who have an authentic maturity in their relationship/Prayer Life with Christ. God desires to speak to His people. Essentially - those who are listening will hear. Through much of Christianity has devolved into merely the practice of a Christian Philosophy; it is, in it's true state - a powerful confluence of Dynamics/Realities that exist beyond mere ideas and social practice. Churches that are run as social clubs will detest the unpredictable nature of the Prophetic and will consider it a threat to their existence. But maybe it was always intended for that purpose: to keep it all real, and to make sure, as Talking Heads once wrote/sang in their song "Life During Wartime;" we understood "This ain't no party, this ain't no disco this ain't no fooling around No time for dancing, or lovey dovey I ain't got time for that now"

It might be that we just need to come up with a different word than prophecy to denote what goes on in pulpits in this post-apostolic age (aka "proclamation of the word," see Reg above). Shame on educated men like Grudem, et al., for adding to the confusion in this matter.

I'm not suggesting that men or women are incapable of being moved by the Spirit to speak about certain things (that are in line with scripture); I'm simply saying let's not call it prophecy, for want of clarity.

Thanks Tim for this review. Prophecy Today appears to be a good book to add to my collection, and also covers a topic that needs to be written on, considering the wide spread acceptance of Grudem's theology.

@Alexander M Jordan: I knew Bob DeWaay had a different view of the gifts (quoting his words from a CIC Broadcast), but I have never heard him expand on it. Do you have a link to something by Bob where he details his views?

OK, lemme see here. From what I understand, both cessationists and non-cessationists agree that the gift of prophecy that was operating in OT and early NT times (i.e., through the apostles and their contemporaries) isn't the same gift that's been in operation since then. Non-cessationists will admit that prophecy has undergone a drastic shift: from an infallible wholly true gift to a mixture of truth and error.

This begs several questions: (1) just where in Scripture is such a huge change in the nature of prophecy revealed? (2) what does Scripture teach us about how the church is to retain the "baby" of NT prophecy without throwing out the "bathwater"? and (3) how is the church to defend the integrity of God's Holy Name when error is so often attributed to Him via prophetic utterances?

I trust I am not alone in thinking that the historical accounts of Acts plus the troubleshooting instructions of 1 Corinthians seem to not be an adequate basis for practicing and judging part-inspired, part-manmade "thus says the Lord" utterances. After all, we are talking about a massive shift away from utterly infallible prophetic and apostolic revelation to a form of kinda sorta "revelation" that can never be fully trusted as being the Word of God! Although the preaching of the cessationist preacher is undoubtedly fallible, he makes no claim to speak for God except to the extent that he accurately expounds Scripture. Thus, he avoids attributing his human error to God, but today's "NT prophet" can and does say "thus says the Lord" regarding a message that is known to be mixed with human error.

Having spent time on both sides of the prophetic fence, I am persuaded that the cessationist view best defends the integrity of God's Word by barring the door against any type of fallible revelation. Of course, cessationists do often err in their exegesis of Scripture, but when this occurs, their error can be compared against a solid benchmark of infallible revelation: Scripture.

A former "NT prophet" who said "thus says the Lord" to many, many words of his own imagination...to his lasting regret,

Dave

Here are my thoughts--and these are just my thoughts. And thoughts after having worked three successive 60+ hour weeks, so I make no promises as to their worth.

I think there is little need for the gifts of prophecy and tongues today, but can see how they would have been essential to serve God's purposes during both OT and NT times. I do think, though, that if somehow we lost access to the Bible and as a people became separated from *access* to His Holy Word, that those gifts would operate again to establish His glory and to reveal Himself to His people. As I understand John, Jesus was and is the Word made flesh. By the complete revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ, and by the recorded accounts of His presence and His gospel by the New Testament writers, the knowledge of the Holy that has been handed down for centuries to the body of believers IS sufficient. It seems that every time someone comes along seeking to add to or subtract from the Word that we have received, it is always accompanied with error. And that error is usually recognized pretty readily by those folks who do cling to Christ and to the revealed Word of God, while those who are not satisfied with the portion of Scripture we have been given whore about until they find something that suits them. One need look no further than Lakeland or the Wolves of Faith in our own time to see just where those roads lead.

Now, having said that, I will say again that I believe if the Word was somehow lost, and it were necessary for God to speak through prophets to pronounce His both His glory and His judgment, I have no doubt the gift would be in full operation. As non-cessationists say, "God is God and He can do whatever He wants." However, I do not see any evidence for His "wanting" to continue the gifts of prophecy (or of tongues) in our own time since there does not seem to be any need, nor does there seem to be any occurrence of their use that has not been tainted by a withdrawal from sound doctrine by those who place great importance on those "gifts". While I do respect some of the teachings and ministries of the more conservative continuationists (such as Piper and Grudem), it seems to me that more often than not those teachers who get caught up with an over-emphasis on the so-called sign gifts... well, drive right off the road as they look for their signs, losing sight of both the road and their final destination.

I'm not real sure if I said everything I wanted to say as clearly as I wanted to say it. I can say with confidence that this is NOT a prophetic word, but it's as best as I can get it out at the moment.

Peace & Blessings,Simple Mann

Thanks Tim! I'm sure this book will contribute to even more fruitful discussion among cessationists and continuationists about the nature of NT prophecy. It is an important topic that should be approached humbly from both camps - and we all could benefit greatly from the examples of guys like CJ Mahaney and John MacArthur, who can disagree entirely about this topic and still enjoy friendship, ministry, and fellowship (and they even share pulpits!) together.

Matthew, I wish I could believe you were joking, but I know you're not. Come on, what does that story prove?

A friend of mine says "charismatic = gullible," and this is why. A charismatic preacher makes some vague statement from the pulpit -- "someone has a headache" -- that could very likely apply to someone in the audience. (If it doesn't, no matter; no one will ever know.) Wonder of wonders, it does apply to someone. The man is amazing! He's a prophet!

Seriously, it's an old game.

Let me start by saying that I am in process on this whole matter. The continuationist view is one I understand thoroughly; the cessationist view, on the other hand, is relatively new to me. (And I really appreciate reviews like this for that reason.) I would like to say, however, that I do not need signs to indicate to me that the Spirit of God is at work in my life, I need fruit. I do not need vague possilble-prophecies to tell me God is at work in a situation, when I have the certainty of Scripture telling me that God is working all things together for good for me, because I love Him and am called according to His purpose.

Stewart Olyott is certainly right when he said: “This book deals with a question that no twenty-first-century Christian can afford to ignore: does God-given prophecy continue in today’s church, or doesn’t it?” It is certainly a book I will want to get and read for myself. The diverse comments on yesterday's blog are extremely thought provoking. Keeping with Dan Rolfe’s (blogger #17.9:22 AM August 30, 2008) wise comment to approach this subject with humility and I might add, for the purpose of building up the body of Christ in Love. Here are a few questions for consideration.

1. If Simple Mann (#15 blog) is right , “there is little need for the gifts of prophecy and tongues today, but (he) can see how they would have been essential to serve God’s purposes during both OT and NT times.” Then what is the role of the spirit today? Is God’s Spirit waiting around for us to understand the inspired word through our own understanding? ? If the understanding of what was inspired is influenced by our ability to understand as well as the Spirit’s leading us into all Truth then isn’t there also a mixture in the process? That sounds a little too existential to me to have the Spirit of God able to move but not moving unless there is no written word in which to put our confidence. What about our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ around the world today who have this reality? Are they the only ones the Spirit will direct toward Truth in a personal way? Or are they not a part of the church since they don’t have the written word to confidently know they are ‘right’?2. Didn’t Jesus Die to Give us His Spirit to Live IN us and isn’t he actively LEADING us into all Truth? How does that happen? Isn’t that a difference from the Old Testament “thus sayeth” inspiration given to a few for the masses. Acts 2:17 quotes Joel of the OT of a new outpouring of God’s Spirit on “all flesh” where the masses are united as one body. What’s that about?3. Where in scripture does it say to not pursue prophesy or that the Holy Spirit stopped with the apostles?. There were many operating in Spirit gifts who were not apostles in the classical sense, like Barnabus, Philip (the deacon) or whole churches (in Corinth or Ephesus). See Corinthians (14:4-5 ). Are these some of the babies being thrown out of the family? If, like a father, Paul instructs the Corinthians on how the gifts were to be used he didn’t seem to want to restrict them but instruct them for better use of the gifts. He doesn’t tell them to stop using the gifts but to use them correctly. Since Paul’s mission was to spread the good news of the Gospel, which included ministry of the Spirit’s gifts, he didn’t always have 3 years to stay in one place, like Ephesus, to give full instruction. After he left a place the learning process would continue as the Holy Spirit directed. I think DLE (the original # 20 blog) made some good biblical points by principle and not only experience. Isn’t that kind of learning through the Spirit still going on today? Don’t cessationists also go by experience or the lack of for the basis for putting their faith in knowledge about then the possible relationship with God’s Spirit. Or Like the Catholics before the reformation, are we to rely on what we can understand only through approved the educated and book learned doctrinally oriented instructors. Shouldn't the same standard for scriptural support be required for both sides of the discussion?4. Aren’t the Word and Spirit supposed to be united together and Spirit and Truth to be the type of true worshippers? 5. How can we see a bridge built between these two divided sibling groups in our Father’s Family except it be to Love on another (No name calling) even when we disagree. I long for that day.

BY the way, What happened to DLE’s # 20 post?

I'm moving the site to a new server today. It's possible that the comment got caught "between servers."

Matthew Lipscomb wrote:"I said it before and I will say it again. Cultural Christianity and Buena Vista Sunday Morning Social Clubs will allways find the Prophetic a threat to their very existence.

It is my sincere prayer for all of my friends here that God move in some capacity in your life as to explode your Cessationist Preconceptions of what He does and Does not do.

I do not say this lightly. I speak it over you with intention - to all who read this."

Wow. Sometimes it's hard to get a real picture of where someone's coming from from a couple of comments on a blog. So I clicked on the link to your myspace page that's associated with your name here on your posts. I just spent the last couple of minutes glancing at your blog site, and thought it was a little ironic that you seem so frustrated with us "grumpy old Reformed folk" (to use Tim's words), slapping the accusation of Cultural Christianity and Buena Vista Social Clubs on us. Just curious, have you looked at your myspace page lately, dude? Before you go accusing folks who love God and who invest their time and energy trying to glorify Him (instead of trying to glorify themselves) with their little piece of Web real estate, but I may humbly suggest a gut-check.

Let me just say that the reason I have such a hard time with the "gifts" of prophecy (and tongues) is because almost everyone I have encountered them that defends them so staunchly (as if the sign gifts are the doctrine by which the church stands or falls) seem to have this dichotomous nature, where on the one hand they talk as if those gifts are the evidence of God's glory and His awesome power, yet almost without fail their tend to be some of the most self-oriented and egotistical Christians I know. They talk about the greatness of God, but they live the greatness of themselves. In my mind, "Cultural Christianity" is an appearance of faith that is actually separated from God. It is someone who with their mouth declares Christ, but with their actions declare their culture. Mr. Myspace, your mouth may here declare God, but what do your actions declare? Who is your myspace page all about? Who or what are you really representing?

My aim is not to offend, but to use your own jargon, "to speak a word" to you. Maybe if two or three others speak the same word to you who don't even know you, you might even consider it prophetic. But most likely you will reject what I have to say because it doesn't jive with the cool guy your page is all about. As you said, "I speak it over you with intention." And my intention is not that you will believe as I do, but that the Spirit of Truth will expose the error in your own heart and cause you to repent.

I expect to be misunderstood, but brother, I do believe you need "a word."

Peace & Blessings,Simple Mann

Wow! What a conversation. Here are my two cents. Laurie you said :

" I would like to say, however, that I do not need signs to indicate to me that the Spirit of God is at work in my life, I need fruit. I do not need vague possilble-prophecies to tell me God is at work in a situation, when I have the certainty of Scripture telling me that God is working all things together for good for me, because I love Him and am called according to His purpose. "

It seems like you're implying that continuationists are only for experience, if thats what you are implying then you are wrong. Continuationists believe in what is know as the Sufficiency of Scripture as well. Although there might be some charismatics that say that they need somekind of sign from God not all charismatics do. We just believe that God still works in the same ways that he did in the new testament, and that we should be open to His more subjective ways of guidance.........it's part of the New Covenant. We don't need signs but God still chooses to work in those ways. We believe that knowing God means experiencing him personally on a daily basis, through His Spirit, both in nonspectacular and spectacular ways, if those are the right words. We hold to the Sufficiency of Scripture as well as the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit or the more subjective ways that God moves. Grudem puts it well :

" Certain evangelicals rightly claim that Scripture is sufficient to reveal all that christians need to know about God, a point Scripture supports everywhere(e.g., 2 Tim. 3:15; Acts 17:11; Isa.8:20;etc.) But in doing so they distort what Scripture itself teaches about the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit in conjunction with Scripture."

Grudem continues :

" Scripture cannot be sufficient if what it teaches about itself is distorted. Scripture is only sufficient in conjunction with the ministry of Christ and the Holy Spirit in our lives, as Scripture itself attests :

John 5:39,40- " You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

James 1:5,6- " If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt."

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22- " Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil."

Sam storms also touches on this issue :

" ....we need to be more precise about what we mean by the Sufficiency of Scripture. What is the Bible sufficient for? I believe it is sufficient and perfectly adequate to provide us with every doctrine and ethical principle necessary for us to believe and behave as we should. But the doctirne of the sufficiency of the Bible is not meant to suggest that we don't hear from God or receive particular guidance in areas on which the Bible is silent. The close of the biblcal canon marks the point at which the general principles of God's universal will are complete. All the doctrine, as well as all ethical principles, essential for the life of God's people have been revealed. Nothing further will be said by God to extend or expand or contradict them. The Bible establishes the theological and ethical boundaries of what God will ever say.But guidance and revelation and wisdom by which we gain the knowledge of how to apply these principles and truths in the practical details and decisions of life are ongoing. When we listen to God we do not expect him to say anything doctrinally or ethically new. But we do expect him to speak to the situation in which we find ourselves with wisdom and direction and insight and encouragement in living out the truths he has written in."

And also, as far as I know, I find it interesting that Cessationism started in the west. Craig Keener's brief observations:

" So pervasively has Enlightenment culture's anti-supernaturalism affected the Western church, especially educated European and North American Christians, that most of us are suspicious of anything supernatural ".

" Those who deny that these gifts continue today must also find other explanations for charismatic phenomena among genuine fellow Christians. In the past, some attributed such phenomena to demons but phsychological interpretations are more frequent today."

Simple Mann I just had an observation. You said :

" Let me just say that the reason I have such a hard time with the “gifts” of prophecy (and tongues) is because almost everyone I have encountered them that defends them so staunchly (as if the sign gifts are the doctrine by which the church stands or falls) seem to have this dichotomous nature, where on the one hand they talk as if those gifts are the evidence of God’s glory and His awesome power, yet almost without fail their tend to be some of the most self-oriented and egotistical Christians I know. They talk about the greatness of God, but they live the greatness of themselves. "

You do point to a reality amongst some charismatics but it's also true of cessationists. Pride has no boundaires. BUT the interesting thing is what you're describing sounds just like the CORINTHIANS! That's sounds like some of the things that Paul had to address when writing to the believers at Corinth.

Peace,

Learning

Learning,I firmly agree with you--Jesus is the absolute center. Do we need prophetic utterance? Absolutely not. We have everything we need for life and for godliness. God has said all He needs to say in Jesus (Heb 1:1-2).

Others,It sounds very pious to say that you don't need a sign. You are right, you don't. But when God chooses to give you one, is it wrong to glorify Him for it? There will always be wacky Corinthians that need to be admonished and rebuked for their excess and error, and there will always be false teachers who use the Holy Spirit in their rhetoric to satisfy their own lusts for approval and/or greed. But, if Scripture is our authority and it speaks positively of prophecy...should we diminish its role?

It is also interesting that appealing to experience is wrong for a continuationist but appealing to previous experience of charismatic excesses or moral failure is not wrong for a cessationist.

1 Cor. 2:2,Clint

"Tongues and prophecy will cease when we see more clearly than Paul did."

So, let me get this right. Paul didn't know what he was talking about. Or, there is further revelation that would have completed his understanding, an understanding that he said was to be past along to others? Question then, how can that which is not understood to be passed along, as truth, or opinion? If opinion then not as oracle of God, as truth, then to see face to face means that what is known when it comes is perfect and then can be passed along. If we have not received it, how could we pass it along? Then we are to not go beyond what is written, and thus, if it is not written, it cannot be understood, but if written then it is given for us to understand.

This I see as the primary problem of continualists, they don't understand the Scripture, so claim that no one else can, even Paul. But, I don't think that is what Paul said. His reference is to the resurrection and the perfection of the end, a thought that he begins here and finishes in the fifteenth chapter. While it is true, that just what is the body, just what is the reality of the kingdom which has no sun for light but the Lord is light, cannot be comprehended until that very thing comes, but we have the perfect knowledge that it will come. For the rest of the revelation, that which is given for us to know has fully been revealed. It is those who are not satisfied and those who wish to be thought of as more than another who seek what Paul would say is forbidden to speak about. It is the height of arrogance to think that the apostles were not give the revelation to give to the Church. That is as to say they never did see the Lord, the Perfect revelation in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily. As if, the explanation that the Lord gave of all the Scriptures was insufficient concerning Him and his church.

Laurie, thanks for the clarification.

Peace,

Learning

"This I see as the primary problem of continualists, they don’t understand the Scripture, so claim that no one else can, even Paul. "

Thomas, I just don't see this claim as you do...I do not think Clint's statement "...prophecy will cease when we see more clearly than Paul did," is any indication that Paul didn't know what he was talking about at all. I think he was actually acknowledging Paul's position here in his understanding of Scripture.

You see, Paul knew that he (and we) only see in part. (I Cor 13:9 - "For we know in part and we prophecy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away." ) He understood that we need the help of the Holy Spirit to understand scripture. We may understand very well in some areas, and yes, we may indeed need more revelation than what we've got at the moment. We don't get it all right all of the time - not even cessationists. It's not always black and white, but a process from darkness into light. Some things are illuminated suddenly and brilliantly, others more slowly. This is not to say that no one can understand Scripture. Of course Paul understood a great deal, and so can we. However, there is always more because we have not got it perfect yet.

Oh, and thanks for your "two cents," Learning.

Thomas, it might be a good idea to re-read Clint’s comments. It may be that you thought he validated a preconceived opinion toward continuationists that caused you to miss his point and not accurately read his rhetorical comments. In re reading his words it appears to me that he was trying to point out that BECAUSE Paul knew so much and had gone to the third heaven and was supportive of prophecy we should not disagree with Paul unless we know more then he did. It could also possibly be taken to mean cessationists should be careful to not make the mistake Paul made before he ‘saw the light’ when he thought he knew scripture so well that he missed the point and persecuted Christ’s Body.

Personally, the point is to pursue Christ's Love, which is the greatest fruit and evidence of who our Father is, not who’s ‘Right’ or ‘Wrong’. Wrestling together with these blurry lines can be good if our goal is to strengthen and encourage one another. If we are out to ‘prove how ‘right’ we are as a judge over others for how wrong they are then we become a “gong show”. We are to pursue peace, right?

Peace to all who are in Christ Jesus,Hushai

Hushai,

Another good resource is a book by professor Max Turner from London School of Theology. It's called The Holy Spirit and Spiritual Gifts. I have not read it yet but just by looking through the table of contents he covers things such as The Spirit in the Old Testament and in Intertestimental Judaism, The Spirit and Jesus, the Gift of the Spirit in Acts, the Spirit in John, the Spirit in Paul, Gifts of the Spirit, Prophecy in the New Testament, The New Testament Concept of Prophecy, Healings in the New Testament, Cessationism and New Testament Expectation, and alot more. Just by flipping through the pages its seems that Turner's book is a bit more techincal, I could be wrong. But anyways there you go.

Peace ,

Learning.

DLE, Thanks for your comments. I found them particularly helpful. Even though you use scripture to back up your comments as requested by the cessationist brethren, they may not be received because of the interpretation issue that is certainly attached to this issue.

It seems most of us believe what we want and look selectively for what validates our own 'set in concrete' ideologies and doctrine. I’d better be careful or we’ll spin out of control on to a Sovereignty of God / free will of man debate which might start a real ruckus of a discussion. Or maybe not since the question here seems to bee between Reform cessationists and Reform Charismatics. Interesting.

Thanks again for your essay.Hushai

Thanks 'Learning' for the Max Turner suggestion. I'll check it out.Say, Tim, have you read this book or done a review on it. I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on it. I'll go see if there is a review on your site already. Thanks.

Peace,Hushai

1) I found Humble Mann's comments that my myspace page seems to make me Narcisitic more interesting then offensive. For the record, I'm a failed businessman, and I had to sell the beautiful office/house I owned and move back into my parents home. I live in their basement. I have delt with a tremendous amount of failure in my life in the past few years, even the acknowledgment that I have a form of autism. If anything, I've been tremendously broken and humbled over the past few years. I have genuinely had to walk through the process of remembering where my identity truly comes from.

2) If you had read my posts you would have noted that I discredit most "Prohetic Leaders" as self-deluded and dangerous and that most true Prophets are more apt to have a tendency to squirrel themselve out of sight.

3) It seems that the most popular technique to try to win an argument is to assume that the most pointed remark in a comment is neccessarily personal and directed at the person to whom I am responding to. I suppose I need to footnote or write longer, or more specific in these regards then I already do. Having a theological discussion is not supposed to be like herding cats.

4) I have greatly enjoyed this discussion, though I think some of the most personal & sincere things I have shared were "poo paahd" and treated as irrelevant vaugeries, in addition to the above concerns. I should not be offended, as I knew they would be. That is the only logical choice. Believe or Discredit them.

5) A long time ago I realized the importance of Ministry and caring about the appearance that you have when you are in it. I also realized, a long time ago, that people will not accept me anyway, and I can be who I am in Christ, and be free of a bondage to the assumptions of the few. I have always been an outsider, and have fit in very few peoples social boxes. I'm more used to Rejection than I am to Acceptance. But I think that it fits with what God has called me to do and be in the Body and in ministry. Not everyone responds to a call to Reformation/Repentance, especially when it comes to theological assertions.

6) Absolute Reality exists beyond your assumptive or apprehensional view of it. Absolute Reality - is, it is is not what you argue it to be and it cannot be made to neccessarily allways to be what you think it to be. Modern day Christ-serving Prophets Exist. And they Exist today. This is a reality is a true as the Sky is Blue. And you can argue all day long that they are false. And you can believe that they are false - but what you think -does not constitute reality by default, unless you want to be guilty of Epsitimological/ideological Relativism. I pray that you expereince the truth of the Absolute Reality of a Living God and the way He actually does still work in the world today. It is true. It is real. It is here. You can be a part of what God is doing.

In his grace.

matthew lipscomb

@Matthew Lipscomb

"Humble Mann"? I would never call myself that. Obviously with good reason. A Simple one, yes. One often humbled, but humble? No.

Brother, I do not doubt that my post in response to your comments the other night was prideful. Not that I meant it to be, but I will be the first to admit I am not perfect, am not worthy, am not humble, and always in need of correction. I apologize.

While I do not retract my position as a "cautious cessationist", I apologize for allowing my own vain conceit to intrude into an otherwise stimulating conversation.

Peace & Blessings,in Christ our Lord~Simple Mann