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Review - Guidance and the Voice of God
- 01/28/07
- 68
Guidance and the Voice of God is one of several books I have read that discusses the way God speaks to and guides His children. I initially turned to these books in response to the words I hear all around me in modern Christianity. People continually ask God to speak to us in circumstances and situations. Likewise, I am often asked how God spoke to me during a period of time or perhaps during a specific event. The terms people use would seem to indicate that many of them hear audibly from God on an ongoing basis and that such revelation from God is normative for the Christian life. Yet I have been a Christian for many years and have never knowingly received a "word from the Lord" and have never had a vision, dream or whispering that I can conclusively attribute to God. Is this a matter of theology or a matter of simply not listening?
Phillip Jensen and Tony Payne, authors of Guidance and the Voice of God believe that God has spoken to us fully and finally through the Bible and that this is the only way we should expect for Him to speak to us. They make five propositions about how God guides us:
- God, in His sovereignty, uses everything to guide us “behind the scenes.”
- In many and varied ways, God can speak to his people, and guide them with their conscious cooperation.
- In these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son.
- God speaks to us today by His Son through His Spirit in the Scriptures.
- Apart from His Spirit working through Scripture, God does not promise to use any other means to guide us, nor should we expect Him to.
While God has often used many supernatural means to speak to His people in former times, these are relegated to the past now that He has given us the Scriptures. While He is still capable of revealing Himself however He wishes, the way He has chosen to do so is by the Spirit working through the Scriptures. This argument is based primarily in the writings of Hebrews which provides ample support.
A good part of the book is dedicated to decision making, and the authors propose a three-fold means of determining what to do when "matters matter." First, they speak of matters of righteousness. If the Scripture tells us explicitly what to do or what not to do, we should instantly and joyfully obey. This is a simple matter of obedience and we must realize that God will never ask us to disobey Him, for He is not the author of confusion. Second, there are matters of good judgment. When we have already determined that an action is not expressly forbidden, we may have to choose between two "right" options. The example they use is marriage - we are told that celibacy is honorable and that marriage is also part of God's plan. So when it comes to the choice of whether or not to marry, we must evaluate ourselves, our sexual appetites and determine what the Bible tells us. These decisions rely on Biblical wisdom which can be gained only through diligently studying the Word. Finally, there are matters of triviality, which are minor matters that are not worth worrying about. Either do them or don't, but do not concern yourself with them. Where some people become obsessed with trivialities, the authors encourage us to focus instead on the greater matters.
One important aspect of the authors' argument involves the idea of God's will for our lives. While many Christians today seem to believe that God has a specific plan for us that we may well miss out on if we make poor decisions, the authors show that this is not the case. God has mapped out our lives so that all our decisions will lead to the ultimate goal, which is becoming increasingly conformed to the image of Christ. We do not need to fear that one wrong decision will relegate us to a life of second best - to God's backup plan for those who do not obey. In this view they teach that the Scripture is not to be treated like a map that will tell us when to turn left and when to turn right, but as a compass which will continually guide us in the direction of godliness.
The book concludes with three case studies which take the theory the authors have taught and seek to put it into practice. This is quite helpful as it makes the theoretical practical in at least a fictional setting.
I have a couple of concerns with the book. While the authors clearly state that other means of revelation, such as dreams, feelings, desires and external affirmations are not God’s way of guiding us, they do not take a stance on what they might be. Are these Satan’s ways of trying to lead us astray, or merely circumstances? I would have liked to have some teaching on what I have often heard referred to as "spiritual impressions." Are we to interpret desires as coming from our own hearts, or does the Spirit begin to change our goals and desires as part of His guidance.
Guidance and the Voice of God is well-written and easy to understand, even for a young believer. The authors provide godly wisdom and what they share will surely allow many Christians to escape the snares inherent in thinking that we can miss out on God’s will simply by laboring over decisions, but making wrong ones. I highly recommend this book which can be purchased through Matthias Media. In the same vein, I also recommend Decisions, Decisions by Dave Swavely.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I write books and blogs for fun while doing web design and consulting for a living. I worship and serve at 
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Comments (68)
Wow...Tim.
God must have told you to post this review at this particular time to coincide with what I have been posting all this past week.
This would be a great area for discussion in a book on discernment (hint, hint).
I have been amazed at the number of people who are claiming - not only to have received some word or directive from God - but who are claiming to receive personal guidance from God on a regular basis apart from Scripture (and many claiming it is by an actual audible voice!).
If you or anyone else is interested in seeing a true amatuer attempt to tackle this whole subject of hearing from God, you can do so by reading the last several days' postshere.
Another good source is Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason.
I agree that the Charismatic movement is in terrible error. However, any thoughts on subjective guidance in the life of men like Duncan Campbell?
Once he was in a place and felt heavily impressed that he should go to a place he knew nothing about (I believe it was a large distance). When he got there he asked if anyone knew where the church was (he had no way of knowing whether there was a church or not). Somehow or another he was directed to a place a little ways away. As he arrived the man he met told him that God had impressed it upon him that He was sending a man. Therefore, the man had already scheduled meetings (before hearing of Duncan Campbell's arrival). Revival broke out and many were swept into the Kingdom.
Thoughts?
Tim, Matthias Media have a site for customers from the USA at http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/usa/
I agree that the strength of Guidance and the Voice of God is its affirmation of the priority of God's plan for the whole world, and how we fit into that plan. Too often we start from our own concerns and try and get God to fit around our view of the world. But what a joy to know God's ultimate purpose - all things brought under one head, even Christ! - and to line our lives up with that. That is freedom!
This brings up some interesting questions Tim.
Why did God ever stop talking to us, when He had been talking right along until the end of the Revelation? We are in agreement that He has given us all we need to know about His Holiness, our sin, His Love and our salvation. But wouldn't it be cool if He gave us His Creatorial insights into science, medicine, and nanotechnology; if we will ever get to do interstellar travel and if we are alone in the universe.
Even when He has spoken throughout history, why it was to a very select few? Why not just talk to us all directly like we do with each other?
According to the Bible he rarely even then spoke audibly; dreams and visions seemed to be his favorite mediums, wonder why?
Did he really not have anything else to say to and through all the other cultures throughout history?
Of course there are other religions (some claiming to be Christian - ie LDS) that claim He did not stop talking to us, or at least again certain special (and again odd) folk. Are there basic tools we can use for discerning these “further revelations” are wrong?
Were the folks that were selected to choose the canonical books just as inspired in their selections as those that wrote the documents? Of course there are plenty of scholarly resources that would give us insight into their criteria. You, being a historian, if I remember right, would appreciate this. The Nicean Councils disciplines of discernment would be interesting to address in your book.
Can you imagine how long the Bible could have been? Just reflect on what John said.
John 21:24, 25: This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (NIV)
I did find a Greek Orthodox sudy on canonization that appeared concise, fair and accurate:
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9549.asp
What did they say about hearing the Lord through church authority, namely pastors and elders? Too often this clear conduit directly expressing God's decisions goes ignored.
Mason,
Although not familiar with it myself, I think the experience of Duncan Campbell you describe sounds somewhat similar to that of Paul in Acts 16:6-10...
"And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them."
Clearly at least in the apostolic era the Holy Spirit gave this kind of guidance to some, directing them to where he would have them preach.
As to whether the Spirit still does lead some in this manner, I realise that where we come down on this will to a large extent come back where we are in the cessationist/continuationist debate.
While I used to be a cessationist, I personally no longer find the exegesis used to defend this position compelling. And so while I agree there is much misunderstanding and dillusion among so many in this area, I don't see any reason to believe God does not still at times lead people in these ways.
The Holy Spirit clearly wanted Paul to travel to Macedonia to preach the gospel at a particular time, and NOT to other regions. So he led him there, and what followed were some amazing conversions and workings of God in people's lives (in Lydia, the slave girl and the Philippian jailer)
Could he not act similarly today? There's certainly no strong case to see such leadings as normative, however I don't see how the completion of the NT canon in any way precludes the Spirit working in these kinds of ways to bring about God's purposes in today's world.
Asking God to be clear, bold, direct is something we all pray about. Did not read the book, just might, however, once you give your life up to the Trinity, I mean really give it up, God comes in loud and clear. Gods voice does not have a tone, he does not speek a different language, what you hear is the sound of your heart that is filled with joy, your body feels worm and comforted, you smile knowing Father God is close so close that he can take you by the hand so that you are not alone. This is how God talks to me when I am happy, when I am sad, when I am in need and when God needs me to help others feel the love of the Trinity.
Steve - Thanks for your thoughts. I agree.
I think a key thing from Tim's post to keep in mind are these words:
"...God has spoken to us fully and finally through the Bible and that this is the only way we should expect for Him to speak to us."
The key here is that we should not EXPECT special revelation. We should not consider this sort of communication on God's part normative for the Christian life. Garry Friesen has written a terrific book on this topic called "Decision Making and the Will of God" that I highly recommend. In it he makes this same case, and suggests that, based on a number of Biblical examples, for a claim of special revelation to be trusted, it must a) be in harmony with the Scriptures and b) be accompanied by some sort of miraculous sign. He suggests that if there is not an obvious sign to others that an individual has received direct revelation from God, the claim is not to be trusted.
Thanks for writing on this topic, Tim. It's a much needed conversation among evangelicals.
Kyle
Tim,
On several occasions within the last few months you’ve addressed this topic of extra-Scriptural guidance from the Spirit. In one case you went as far as to imply that Christians who see this possible, or even have experienced it, are immature. All the while, you’re writing on the topic of discernment. Would you consider Peter and Paul immature Christians (Acts 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 20:22, et al.)? Not once have I seen any consideration for the question of whether or not the reason we don’t hear from God in this way is because it is us who are the immature ones.
If you’d like to continue to propose this question I would like to recommend you do so in a different context – possibly as whether or not the Spirit still speaks in this way. This is NOT a question of either maturity or discernment, unless you are willing to imply that Peter and Paul were both immature and undiscerning.
Peace,
Jeremy
it must it must a) be in harmony with the Scriptures
How is this possible when the Bible says that The Lord has spoken finally by a Son--and the Bible is complete and finished?
and b) be accompanied by some sort of miraculous sign
If one looks at the miracles of Christ, you see that as a rule, they are always accompanied by a new revelation from God that has never been expressed before. Christ does not teach a new revelation without confirming it by a miracle--that is the purpose of miracles. Any miracle that you could want to behold is recorded in scripture and you can see them now with eyes of faith as plain as if they happened in your front yard. The question is, does anyone have the authority to speak new revelation from the Lord? Are there anymore capital-A Apostles? If there are, then why are we not writing down everything they say and making extra books of the Bible?
Kyle wrote: "Garry Friesen has written a terrific book on this topic called "Decision Making and the Will of God" that I highly recommend."
Just wanted to second this recommendation. I'm in the difficult process of mid-life career change. I know what I don't want to do, but I'm really not sure what I do want to do. Being a procrastinator and wanting to avoid difficult decisions, I am easily tempted by thoughts such as, "Well, I really have to wait for God's direction", using it as an excuse not to exercise judgment and consider alternatives.
Also, audible.com has a great talk by Os Guiness which I suspect is also the title of a book, although I never got around to checking: The Call. He talks about the general call that we all receive as Christians to use our gifts and talents for God's glory (whether in full time ministry or a secular occupation). Also talks about a second, special (supernatural) call to do something specific, but this is very rare.
Now, my goal here is not to take sides on complex theological arguments, cause I'm woefully unarmed. But I brought this up because it addresses a phenomenon I've seen often in very sincere, but misguided Christians. That is, the idea that one receives a special call to ministry (as opposed to leaning toward ministry perhaps because it is compatible with your gifts and talents). Obviously, I can't dispute the personal experiences of those who feel "called".
But my sister provides a good example of someone who sincerely believed she received a calling to world missions as a teenager. Instead, she's a homeschool mom of five, the eldest with multiple disabilities. And if she'd looked really hard, she couldn't have found a Christian husband as unsuited for world missions as hers. If you ask her about her calling, she will tell you that though good-intentioned, it was essentially selfish - a desire to do God's work in a way that was obviously "more important" and therefore more godly. But it is hard to imagine anything that requires the true giving and selflessness of motherhood, and her children are her mission field now. So, she has fulfilled her calling, it was just the general calling (as a Christian first, but also as a woman) and not the specific calling she thought she heard so clearly as a young, eager-to-please Christian.
Jeremy
Amen. I agree. Who do you think you all are to put God in a box? this statement is presumptuous and unsupported:
"Apart from His Spirit working through Scripture, God does not promise to use any other means to guide us, nor should we expect Him to."
Laaaaaaaaame. God speaks and moves in many different ways other than scripture. Look at men like Hudson Taylor, etc. He felt that God wanted him to go, specifically to China. No where is the word China in the bible again....?
Don't place limits on God. He speaks, he moves, he gives dreams, visions, etc. And one doesn't have to be a Charismatic to believe this.
By the way some of you write, you'd think Tim is god!!
Kyle writes, "The key here is that we should not EXPECT special revelation. We should not consider this sort of communication on God's part normative for the Christian life."
I don't think you could be more incorrect. Is the bible our first source for God's word, yes. Is it our only infallible and inerrant source, yes. But that does not mean he doesn't communicate to us in different ways. I know there are people who abuse these 'revelations' and make them a litmus test for God's will. However, the need for careful discernment should not lead us away from hearing God's voice in our present time.
I would argue the opposite of Kyle and Tim. We should EXPECT the Holy Spirit to speak to us and guide us. This could be in any number of ways, perhaps less likely being an audible voice and certainly the most likely being through our reading of scripture. However, I believe you could find ample evidence of the early church EXPECTING the Holy Spirit to guide them. And this never took away from their reverence for scripture.
Just heard a sermon preached on Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Turn to that and see just how much God 'spoke' to Philip both through the Spirit and using the word of God (Isaiah 53).
Bottom line, I don't buy into the war between being Spirit sensitive and seeking direction primarily from the bible. They are both biblical and both beautifully direct us back to our dependence upon God's sovereign ability to communicate to us on his grounds, not ours.
Blessings
If the authors' premise was correct, then no one would be able to state that he or she was called of God into the ministry because that would entail a conscious, spiritual knowledge of such a calling not found Scripture.
If the authors' premise was correct, then no one would be able to state that he or she was called of God into the ministry
Every Christian is able to say that they are called into the service of Jesus, because they are called to belong to him (Romans 1:6). Just have a look at how the NT uses the language of 'calling'. It's much broader and gospel-centered than we usually think.
Peter writes, "If the authors' premise was correct, then no one would be able to state that he or she was called of God into the ministry"
Every Christian is able to say that they are called into the service of Jesus, because they are called to belong to him (Romans 1:6). Just have a look at how the NT uses the language of 'calling'. It's much broader and gospel-centered than we usually think.
Thats what gets me about this whole 'God called me' thing. God calls ALL Christians to GO! It's not about some special hocus-pocus or gut feeling or whatever...its in writing, you know, in the Bible? If you're a Christian then "Go, make disciples..." When we have to have a God-stamped back-stage pass to do ministry then no one does anything. We get to sit back and 'hire that done' and then gripe when we don't like the sermon.
It's like the Bible isn't enough or something. Sheesh.
Josh"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
In response to Scott's and Josh's comment:
Sure there is the Great Commission, but my comment concerned the five-fold ministry. Actually, you could narrow it down to the pastoral ministry to avoid any denominational issues. According to the authors' premises, as stated by Tim, a man cannot stand in the pulpit and state, "God has called me to pastor this church." As some other commentors have shown, Hudson Taylor could not say, "God has sent me to China."
Sheesh is right.
"Thats what gets me about this whole 'God called me' thing. God calls ALL Christians to GO! It's not about some special hocus-pocus or gut feeling or whatever...its in writing, you know, in the Bible? If you're a Christian then "Go, make disciples..." When we have to have a God-stamped back-stage pass to do ministry then no one does anything. We get to sit back and 'hire that done' and then gripe when we don't like the sermon.
It's like the Bible isn't enough or something. Sheesh.
Josh"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9"
____________________________Fantastic. When will you be going to northern China? And how will you know that you should be there instead of southern India?
For a person to say, 'I have felt called to the ministry' or 'to minister to the Chinese' - is not the same thing as saying, 'The Lord told me to . . .' When one says, 'The Lord told me to . . .' - they have crossed into altogether different territory.
I love the story told by Spurgeon in his 'Lectures to my students', of the man who went to Spurgeon and said the Lord had told him he was to preach at the Metropolitan Tabernacle that Sunday. Spurgeon replied, 'That's funny - the Lord didn't tell me that!'
God may lead thru providential circumstances, encouragement of others, etc. But - with these kinds of leadings or better 'guidance' - we ought to humbly recognize that we are not to equate our impressions or desires for an infallible 'Thus saith the Lord'.
If you go out and decide to show love to your neighbor tomorrow because the Scriptures tell you to - then you can say, 'The Lord told me to do this'
No one is claiming that subjective guidance is infallible. I believe all that are sympathetic to this view that have commented thus far would agree. These impressions must be weighed with Scripture.
However, you are going to have a hard time pointing out where Mr. Taylor found the call to China in the Bible. Or how Duncan Campbell arrived in the Hebrides, claiming he was impressed to do so. I believe if you read Spurgeon close enough you would find that he did not deny subjective guidance (in the sense I am discussing).
Two scenarios:
One person has an 'impression' that God is 'calling' them to go be a missionary in China. They check the latest stats, and yes, there are plenty of people who haven't heard the gospel. They weigh this 'call' by the scriptures, and yes, going to China to preach the gospel is a good, Christian thing to do. They weigh their own skills, abilities, passions, etc, and talk to others, and yes, it seems like they would be suited to this ministry. They board a plane and go to China.
The second person hears that China has unreached millions. They know that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. They and others also think this person has the skills etc for mission to China. They board a plane and go to China.
Which of these was more 'called' to preach the gospel in China? Does the second missionary have reason for doubt that they should be there? Does the first have any more confidence that this is a good, worthwhile and obedient task to be doing with ones life? What if the first decided to go to India instead to preach to unreached millions there? Would that be disobedient?
I think both were equally called, and both were obedient to the voice of God - but not because of an 'impression' that this or that particular place was the right one to go to.
Besides, if the scriptures don't instruct us on waiting for or expecting a particular call into some form of ministry, then why can't we just decide to GO! to whatever place, and trust that God will work all things for good?
My problem isn't a lack of subjective 'call' but a sinful and wayward heart, which doesn't trust God's promises. I don't need an 'impression', I need a kick up the behind.
John Piper said, “I agree with the words of Martyn Lloyd-Jones, preached in 1965:
It is perfectly clear that in New Testament times, the gospel was authenticated in this way by signs, wonders and miracles of various characters and descriptions. . . . Was it only meant to be true of the early church? . . . The Scriptures never anywhere say that these things were only temporary – never! There is no such statement anywhere. ( The Sovereign Spirit , pp. 31-32)”
Link to the rest of the article (I will not repeat Piper’s excellent arguments, but if you care about this subject you owe it to yourself to read them):http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1991/1498_Signs_and_Wonders_Then_and_Now/
I am a Reformed Baptist (not a charismatic) and I love the Word of God. I love doctrine... I love systematic theology. I always try to exhaust the Bible as much as possible when decerning God's will.
But I find it ironic that cessationist (and those that say God no longer leads or has a voice), who claim that those who believe the gifts exist today (and that God still leads and has a voice), do so because of experience, are the very ones basing their doctrine on experience. They are the very ones making their doctrine based on experience and not on the word of God. They see all of the TBN Charismatics falsely using the gifts in unbiblical ways and assume they must not exist. However, those who believe the gifts exist today have all kinds of Scripture to support their position. If you locked someone in a room and just gave them a Bible, they would not walk out of that room thinking the gifts (or God’s leading voice) have ceased. These books on discerning God’s will solely by wisdom, are systems built by men to justify their doctrine because Scripture does not exist to support their position. Read the biographies of great missionaries and great preachers and great evangelists and you will see God leading them in ways similar to the way God lead His people in the book of Acts.
The rest of my post is dealing with God’s leading voice, not the gifts.
Lets look at a text already mentioned here. Hebrews 1:1-2, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.” The text does not say that God no longer speaks, but that He now speaks by His Son. I don’t mean we have continued revelation as in Scripture, I mean that God can still individually lead His people. This is exactly what Jesus said in John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” The author of Hebrews later even gives one of the strongest texts for God speaking today through His Son, Hebrews 3:7-10, “...Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts ...” This is a warning, a warning about what? Not hearing His voice that speaks everyday. This warning is repeated 2 more times in Hebrews.
What happened in Acts 16:6-7, “And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.” The Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to ministry where they wanted. Does God still speak through His Son? Yes!
It seems to me that these brothers that teach we are lead only by the wisdom we can gain from the Bible (and not by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit), sounds like a glorified forum of Deism to me. The Deists would say that God created the world like a clock and then stepped back and let the clock run on it’s own. The main difference between the Deists and those who say we determine God’s will solely by wisdom, is that instead of God just leaving, He also left us a Bible.Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths.” As one preacher said, that is why we have a Hymn entitled, “He Leadeth Me” and not, “I Leadeth Me.”
I fear that we are making God an impersonal God when we say that wisdom primarily leads us and not God. When Jesus left He didn’t leave us with a bunch of wisdom principles, He left us with the Holy Spirit.
In Isaiah 30:1-2 God says, “Ah, stubborn children, declares the LORD, ‘who carry out a plan, but not mine, and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin; who set out to go down to Egypt, without asking for my direction, to take refuge in the protection of Pharaoh...” In verse 21 God says, “And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, ‘This is the way, walk in it,’ when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.” Is God still able to speak to us in a still small like that? I hope so, the Spirit of God indwells us and Christ lives in us.
Jesus said in John 15:5, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” You never mature to the point of not needing to seek God. I am amazed that so many teach that maturity means not needing God to lead you and just using wisdom, it sounds so unspiritual. Isaiah 55:8 says, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.”
Read these 2 verses and ask yourself if we are supposed to be lead by our own wisdom. Jeremiah 10:23, “I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.” Proverbs 20:24, “A man's steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?”
He said in John 5:25, “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” You can’t be saved unless you hear the voice of the Son of God. He is the one who calls you out of your dead estate in sin.
Some claim that God doesn’t speak to His people in this way in the New Testament but Acts 13:2 says, “While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’” I am really glad that they weren’t depending upon wisdom because wisdom would have said you don’t send out your 2 most gifted guys. The Spirit of God can direct people concerning leaders in the church.
Let me tell you about something that happened while I was in college. All I am simply doing is declaring the works that God has done in my life, Scripture would warrant this. I went to a little church in the middle of nowhere and the preaching was exceptionally powerful. The first Sunday there, out of nowhere, God told me that the preacher was in sin. Every Sunday God kept pressing upon me that this powerful preacher was in sin. Because I hadn’t heard of this kind of thing happening before I just ignored it. Within a few months that pastor stepped down because of sexual immorality that had been going on since I came to that chuch.
Another text to consider is Acts 10:19-20, “And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, ‘Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.’” The Spirit of God can direct you concerning people you meet.
I remember in college when my wife and I were engaged. She was going to a Bible Study by herself because I had a class at that time. One day my class got canceled so I went with her. When we go to the apartment that the Bible Study was at, as soon as they opened the door and I saw the people there, God said to me, “You are not among brethren.” As it turns out, they were a cult.
At the 2005 HeartCry conference a man walked up to me and asked, “How many HeartCry conferences have you been to?” Immediately God told me, “This man is lost, witnesses to him.” It turned out he considered himself to be a Catholic/Baptist that had been born again 7 or 8 times.
Back in 2005 some of the Brothers from my church went to the Piper conference. On the plane an old cowboy asked me what I was reading (he did not look like a Mormon at all) and God told me, “This man is a Mormon, witness to him” and it turned out he was.
Despite what some brothers would have us believe, the voice of God did not die with the Apostles.
Some of you might be thinking, “but if God says something in a subjective way it needs to be recorded as Scripture.” 1 Corinthians 14:29-31 makes it clear that God spoke through prophets in the New Testament church and yet they did not feel it necessary to classify those prophecies as Scriptures, “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said [indicating that they don’t function like O.T. Prophets]. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged...” Being that we have no record of what these prophets said, the argument doesn’t hold up that if God speaks subjectively to people it would have to be Scripture. The point of God speaking through these prophets seems to be to encourage local churches and not to give new revelations of truth or doctrine.
Some today are telling us, don’t pray about what profession you go into, or where you live. James 4:13-17 disagrees, “13Come now, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit’-- 14yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15Instead you ought to say, ‘If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.’ 16As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17So whoever knows the right thing to do [meaning the right way to approach your future plans] and fails to do it, for him it is sin.” So you don’t have complete free will to just use wisdom in regards to your future plans, you must seek God’s will for your future plans.Jesus spent a whole night praying before He chose His Apostles and yet some people today are telling us not to pray before we choose our spouse.We are called to be like Christ. How did Christ live? John 5:19, “So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of His own accord, but only what He sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.’” I know we don’t have the perfect communion that Christ had with the Father, but we should have some communion with Him. Wisdom does not dictate that if you want to have a following then go die on a cross, yet that is what Jesus did because He submitted to the will of His father, not the will of wisdom. One of the reasons that Christ could stay on that cross when the world was yelling at Him to come down was that He knew God had called Him to that Cross.I heard another preacher share this story about Hudson Taylor and I think it is worth re-sharing. Hudson Taylor said, “Never shall I forget the feeling that came over me. I felt I was in the Presence of God, entering into a covenant with the Almighty. Form that time till today; the conviction has never left me, that I was called to China. It is no small comfort to me to know that God Himself has called me specifically to this work, putting me where I am as I am. I have not sought this position and therefore I dare not leave it.” If Hudson Taylor would have been relying on wisdom in choosing to go to China, after a few years I am sure he would have left, because it no longer looked like wisdom to be there. The newspapers, the church, everyone was calling him a fool to be there.
I recommend reading A. W. Tozer’s chapter called “The Speaking Voice” in his book, “The Pursuit God.”
Matt,
I mean no disrespect with these questions:
What does God sound like?
How do you know when the voice you hear is God, and when it is just your own thoughts?
Exactly HOW did God speak to you?
Thanks,Brian
I am sorry....but I have a difficulty...
Soverignty, as described in any form of 'Reformed theology', would negate any need of detailed study on matters spiritual. Or physical, for that matter. Based on the premise set forth, that underlies the idea, study or lack there of, diligence or failure, refusal or acceptance will not allay God's decision regarding this individual.
A person would say that ultimate destruction of the individual was God's decision, (which would contradict most of scripture), but the very idea of which, would negate the need of individuals to learn, improve, or change their lives. Since by extension, no matter what they did they would be either saved, or die: spend eternity in Hell.
This book says: "God has mapped out our lives so our ultimate decisions will conform to God's desires..(a pharaphrase). Further, you state that when we see in scripture a specific thing to do, or not do, we should instantly leap to obey, joyfully. The problem lies not in the things stated, but in the underlying premise of the theology that it purports to be 'scripture'.
Yet, at it's heart, there is no freedom to choose...no means to disobey or obey. We merely conform to an exterior influence, over which we have no control, but whom we acknowldege as soverign, in an ability to acknowledge that we do not have.
I posit the same question that Calvin, himself stated. "The Soverignty of God and the responsibility of man for sin, is not a subject that is resolved in scripture".
I would say, Calvin was wrong. But only because his initial foundation was wrong. I would be curious how, in any form of this theology, the answer was found. Because in what I see from many newer writings, they are tending to wind away from the foundational teachings toward a more Arminian view...no matter how much they smudge the issue with attempts to retain the original views...
Brian, what does God sound like? How do you know when the voice you hear is GOd, and when it is just your own thought? Exactly HOW did God speak to you?
God speaks through me daily by giving me an overwhelming peace in my heart that --at that moment I am where I need to be. It may very well be a high stress moment in my ministry with conflict, high emotionalsim, anger, etc., but inside of me God is the center of calmness.
I've heard God vocally. Once in my life. An overwhelming verbal impression, totally foreign and overwhelming, yet with an almost gently urging towards my goal, which happened to be speaking with a struggling young man about a barrier he had thrown up against God and a Particular relationship which I knew nothing about. That overwhelming verbal impression said, "GO NOW. TO HIM. THIS IS WHAT HE NEEDS FROM ME." and a barrage of images and actions.
The hardest part (AND FAR MORE ABUSED) is discerning when it is God's voice and when it is your own. We get into a great deal of trouble doing this. Typically we jump in with a grand vision of what god wants us to do and be about, and we get so caught up in our own grand visions, that we forget to stop, sometimes DAILY to say: Here WAS our vision. GOd has led us to THIS POINT. From here, do we continue , or is God trying to gently move us in another direction. These freqent stopping points for meditation reminds us that often God doesnt' reveal his plan in total splendor at first. It might take time to reach fruition. If we don't take freqent time to stop and ask our questions: ME or GOD? We fall back down.
Brian,
The examples I gave when I heard God speak to me were not audible. In each instance I heard from God I was not even seeking to hear anything from God. Simply out of nowhere (my thoughts were not going in that direction) I heard an unaudible voice in my mind, that said those things so strongly and clearly and with such unique power, I knew it was from God. What I heard was not vague. How do you know when God speaks? All I can say is that you know. If your not sure if it was God, it probably wasn't.
I don't trust in my ability to hear God, but in God's ability to speak to me. He is sovereign, if He wants to speak to me in an unaudible way and yet at the same time make it so clear that I don't doubt that it is Him, He can do that.
Everytime God spoke in the Bible the people whom He spoke to knew it was Him speaking and they knew what He said (and I might add, what He said lined up with His word). The fact that people can abuse this (as they can with anything or any doctrine) and the fact that there are counterfits out there, doesn't mean you throw out the real thing. The things He spoke to me were things that I couldn't of known otherwise. Another thing is that in some instances God has spoken to me on the same thing over and over again with the same words (as I mentioned with the pastor that fell into sin.)
One last thing. Hearing from God does not mean you are spiritual. The Corinthians seemed to have more gifts than any other church, however, they also seemed to have the most moral problems as well. I am not saying that God speaks through immoral people as a general rule; I am just saying that when God speaks to someone it is not a sign of how mature or spiritual they are. The condition for hearing God is not that you’re more sanctified than someone who hasn’t heard from God.
Now, after saying all that, I would like to say that it does worry me when Christians reject the supernatural. Sam Storms mentioned at a Piper Conference that scholars are ashamed of angels because of their spiritual nature. Edwards wrote a lot about angels but no one writes about it (according to Sam Storms). I think cessationism can sometimes be a word to hide behind when you have unbelief in the supernatural. I am not sure if I answered your question, but I hope that helped.
In Christ,matt
Here's my challenge to those of you who claim that "hearing God's voice" means a feeling of peace or calm, or a thought or idea that you just "know" is from God:
Point us to a Biblical text that either models this or instructs us to listen for God in such ways. Show us where someone in the Bible was led to do God's will by a "feeling of peace."
Matt, you are correct to say that if God wants to communicate with His children, He is able to do it plainly and clearly. He always spoke clearly to His people in the Bible. My question is, show us Biblical examples of God speaking clearly and plainly to someone by an inner, unverifiable impression or feeling.
Kyle
I am not talking about "inner peace". I am talking about a definite impression that is undeniable.God leading His people is all over Scripture. Paul the Apostle was clearly being lead around (i.e. "it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit"). The burden is actually on you to prove that God has stopped speaking to His people about specific places He wants them to do ministry. I can tell you haven't lived on the mission field. You will be hard pressed to find someone who has lived for anytime in Asia, India, or Africa that will deny subjective guidance.
You need to read this article by Bill MacKinnon.
http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/V/voicehead.html
Kyle
What would help me here is...1. A definition of "speak" that we're refering to. 2. Which part of the Trinity is doing the speaking: God the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.
One of the main problems I see with the type of subjective personal guidance that many here are claiming to receive from God is that it is not discussed anywhere in the New Testament. The kind of guidance being put forth by many here is not even hinted at in Scripture.
I second Kyle's request for "Biblical examples of God speaking clearly and plainly to someone by an inner, unverifiable impression or feeling."
Aires said, "The burden is actually on you to prove that God has stopped speaking to His people about specific places He wants them to do ministry."
I think the burden is actually on you to prove that God ever STARTED speaking through what you call undeniable definite impressions.
Thanks.
This is a great conversation. It is rather punchy...bit I must comment.
I was a flaming cessationist up until the last 2 years. I simply realized 2 things:
1. Not ONE, not even one, tennant of cessationism is taught anywhere in the bible, period.
This is my definition of cessationism if any chose to take this on:
"Cessationism: Signs and Wonders (and miraculous giftings) served the sole purpose of authenticating and establishing the Apostolic message (and only Aposltes had such gifts) until the cannon was closed, once closed God has chosen to cease giving such gifts."
I challenge anyone to find even one verse that would state any of this. I have heard some mock the doctrine of the Trinity by trying to compare cessationism to the Trinity, but it is nothing short of a manipulative mockery. The doctrine of the Trinity is made up of 4 statements that are all four explicity taught in scripture. I have yet to find one, even one, of the bascis of this for cessationsim.
2. Regarding the topic of this article by Tim.
I empathize with all the confusion and error that rips apart the Church with people using a statement like "God told me" as the basis for perpetuating falsehood. It is sickening and wrong. However, as already pointed out by some, saying that God does not speak today is simply not found in the Bible, period. Even Hebrews 1 does not say that God no longer speaks! It simpy qualifies how He speaks.
It is kind of like the Catholic Church in during the Reformation. They were right about one thing...if you put the Bible in the hands of the people, in their own language, you'll have mutiny! They were right, though they were wrong for not taking the risk, their intial concern was correct as history and present day circumstances bear out. Thank God Luther didn't succomb to such a risk. Cessationist's can only use such an argument for this situation. They can only point to the error and mutiny that can result from the risky business of saying that God speaks today. They cannot show us ANY scripture, whatsoever, they simply have to point us to the many forms of error that result from it. This is not sufficient, not matter the grossness of the error!
For those who want to know where the Bible promises or teaches that God will speak to us I'll simply say two things:
a. The list of Spiritual Gifts given for us in scripture are one place where God tells us He will speak and commune with us. That should be sufficient, but if not...
b. The concept of God speaking to His people is so pervasive in scripture it is insane. From His audible voice, to visions, dreams, impressions, etc... this happens all throughout the scripture. It is like asking us to prove that God created the Dungbettle. The Bible never specifically declares that He created this particular bug, but it does declare that He is the Creator...it simply does not have to say it specifically.
If the Bible does say that God no longer speaks...show me, I'd love to recant and find an excuse to rid myself of the potential subjective errors. Unfortunately, until I see the Scripture teach it, I am bound by the scripture to be open to it.
The reason why I believe God speaks and why I am a Continuationist is due to one reformation truth: Sola Scriptura. If I could find sufficient scripture teaching these things I'd recant, repent before my congregation, and reteach all I've taught in a heartbeat. But, where is it?
I think my posts have already given examples in Scripture...
Scripture does not say how New Testament prophets received their messages (not that you have to be a prophet to hear God's voice), just that they received them. If you want to think that for New Testament prophets to hear from God they have to audibly hear from Him, you have to prove that. The New Testament does not say how New Testament prophets get their message from God, and if it was only to be done in one way I am sure God would have told us about it.
1 Corinthians 14:29-31, “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged...” It seems that because the other prophets weigh what is said by another, that their message does not have absolute authority like Scripture, it is a subjective thing. Why else would they have to weigh it? Isaiah the prophet was not subject to another prophet approving his message.
Also, one prophet can be speaking and if another has a revelation, he is to stand up and speak and the other sits down. Now if this prophet received the message audibly in the church meeting, wouldn't everyone else hear it too? I guess you could argue that only he could hear it... but you still have one prophet being told to sit down and be silent, that tells me that it is subjective and that he needs to sit down because God is speaking to someone else, not him.
Acts 21:10-14, " 10After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' " 12When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."
Here is a new testament prophet saying something to Paul. Now after hearing what the prophet said all of the people pleaded with Paul not to go to Jerusalem. At this point wisdom would dictate that you listen to the warning of the prophet and the pleading of the people and not go up. I have to believe that Paul went up because he had a subjective leading from God to go up, why else would he have gone?
Also, even if God did audibly speak to someone, what difference would it make? People would just say, "Well I didn't hear Him speak to you, so unless I hear God speak to you audibly, I am going to disregard it." And even if it happened and the person did heard God speak to someone else, they can still just blow it off and excuse it as something else besides God's voice.
We see this in John 12:29, "Then a voice came from heaven, 'I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.' The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him." The text says they, "heard it."
In Christ,matt haney
My question is what about Joseph? How did he know what all those dreams meant??? That right there points to some sort of subjective knowledge, so it did exist at some point.... I have felt the guidance of God in my life many times, an impression you might want to call it, andI know it is of God when Scripture matches up with it. It just doesn't make sense that God wouldn't speak to us through other avenues. While Scripture is the main avenue for His revelation to people, I believe He uses other aveunue in combination with this. I know that I have seen both many things I have read in Scripture confirmed through experiences, desires, and impressions and vice versa. Why would God choose to limit the way He speaks to His people? While it is not of a Scripture caliber, He still speaks to us and guides us today through people, events, and desires, and even dreams I'm sure.If that all makes any sense....
I think Tim really needs to somehow limit comment length to a single paragraph or 200-300 words maximum or something. I mean, I love the discussion and it's a major reason I'm a reader her, but this is just ridiculous--we have a guy up there calling his comment his 'post'! If you have so much to say, blog it yourself and submit a link. Just my comment!
Hey Blake,
Since I have the longest post I assume you are referring to me. If am new to the blog world, when I said, "post" I simply meant "comment". I am sorry if my ignorance offended you.
In Christ,matt haney
Keep on speaking Matt - you are making some very necessary points for us to really take on board.
Matt-
I honestly hope you don't think I was aiming my comment directly at you! You don't have to look far on Tim's website to see dozens of people who post volumes of their thoughts in the comments section. I wasn't thinking about you and I didn't even take any note of who it was who wrote that their comment was a post. However, I really do think limiting the length of comments would make discussion more productive. It would make people reconsider everything they say and force them to state their thoughts clearly and draw less attention to their massive arguments.
Again, not aimed at you, sorry for the misunderstanding!
Hey Blake,
Thanks for clarifying!
Afrikaner,
Thanks for the encouraging words...
Some more thoughts... (I posted this on another blog and so I am sharing it here too).
If we are to rely on the objective Word of God (and we are) and if it gives numerous examples of discerning God’s will by the subjective (and it does), than it is unbiblical to reject the subjective. This is not an either or matter, you can have both as long as the subjective lines up with the Word of God.
I think these texts are the strongest and clearest texts that the gifts exist today.
In 1 Corinthians 1:7 Paul says, “so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Here he says that the gifts will be around until Jesus comes back. Paul brings this back up (the gifts ceasing when Jesus comes back) in Chapter 13:8, ”As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” To say this text is referring to the completion of the Bible is just silly. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:4, “...the one who prophesies builds up the church.” Prophesy is not simply to confirm the Bible, it is to build up the church. Let's not define the purpose for prophesy other than what Paul did (or limit it to something that does not include his purpose).
In Chapter 14 Paul defines how those gifts are to funcion (tongues, prophesy etc...). Chapter 14 closes with these words in verse 37, “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.” Here we have a command not to forbid tongues and to pursue prophesy (God could have easily had Paul add, “until the apostles die” if He wanted too, but He didn’t, so the command stands). By the way, I totally reject the modern perversion of tongues (but that is another subject).
In Christ,matt
Matt,
I am in agreement with your basic position, but for those who take the opposing view I think what you said here is the crux of the issue:
"If we are to rely on the objective Word of God (and we are) and if it gives numerous examples of discerning God’s will by the subjective (and it does), than it is unbiblical to reject the subjective."
The question is, "Does the Bible really give numerous examples of discerning God's will by the subjective"? And by "subjective" here I would be referring (as others did above who take the opposite view) to the idea of an inner impulse or feeling, since these seem to be the most common forms of subjective guidance that the Lord gives today. So where are there examples of these in the Bible? It seems like the best we can do is use an argument from silence and say something like, "Well, the Bible doesn't go into exactly how God led people subjectively in every case, so it could have been from an impulse or feeling."
In a way that's true, but is an argument from silence the best we can do, apart from an appeal to church history? Again, I am in agreement with your basic position, so I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's healthy to think through these things.
Thanks for your input so far, it has been very helpful.
gh
Hey Garrett,
Thanks for the input. Here is my attempt to answer your question during my lunch break.
Acts 15:22, 25, 28 “...Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders... it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord... For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements...” They say here that it seemed good to them to make such and such a decision; when we get down to verse 28 we see that in these various decisions they also meant that it seemed good to them because it seemed good to the Holy Spirit. Now how did they know it seemed good according to the Spirit, if not subjectively?
Some could argue that Isaiah 30:21 is not for us today, but it does show that this is Biblical, “And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, ‘This is the way, walk in it,’ when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.”
Psalm 32:8-9, “8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you. 9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding, which must be curbed with bit and bridle, or it will not stay near you.” I know Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" is talking about certain sins, but I think He can be grieved by things like we find in Psalm 32:8-9 too.
I think, as I said, 1 Corinthians 14 has to be subjective, why else would the prophets have to weigh out what the other prophets said. I agree with what another brother said, asking, “How do you know that you are saved?” and “How do you know that God is leading you” are both answered by the subjective.
Romans 14:20-23, “20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”
The context is talking about what kind of food you can eat, but the broader application of this is that if you do anything without having faith (meaning you do it going against your own convictions) it is sin. If you don’t have faith to go in a certain direction in a major decision, and you move ahead anyway, it is sin.
Some might say, “Yea, but I don’t think God cares about what city I move to or what I do for a living or how I make my money – so I do have faith to do all those things without being led by God because I am not supposed to seek His leading in those things to begin with.”
To that I would say, James 4:13-17 disagrees, “13Come now, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit’-- 14yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15Instead you ought to say, ‘If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.’ 16As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17So whoever knows the right thing to do [meaning the right way to approach your future plans] and fails to do it, for him it is sin.” How are you going to know if it is God’s will for you to go to a certain town, for a certain period of time and for a certain purpose; if it is not subjective?
Let go back and see how James started his letter in James 1:5, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” What is the condition? Faith. We see this in the next verse, “6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.” To limit James 1:5 to trails and suffering (or conflicts James 3:13-18) is to remove the general and broad way in which it is stated.
In Christ,matt haney
I have to believe that God "speaks" to us today to meke any sense of my personal experiences. I don't align my experiences with scripture, but I can't explain it as being anything OTHER than God.
Two examples: Yesterday, my wife woke-up in the night thinking about the gate to our backyard being open. She didn't think anything about it but throughout the day, it became a more and more nagging concern that she HAD to go look at it. It turned out it was wide open. Here's the thing. Since my wife and I had NOT been in our backyard at all and we live in a neighborhood where there is no reason for anyone else to have come close to our property to open it. Our dog once escaped around a fenced backyard and was hit by a car. Had she not had the completely illogical and yet completely unignorable urge to go see the gate, it is likely he would have escaped again. This is the TYPE of "voice" I would argue is greater than just my own imagination.
2.) Several years ago after praying for our pastor, my wife and I were driving home. She told me this "thought" she couldn't get out of her head. She told me and it very clearly aligned as something very important for the pastor to hear. We returned to see him, she told him her "word" upon which he broke-down and said that she was the third completely independent person to bring him exactly the same message.
I could look at these as coincidences or I could look at them as "hearing God's voice". The funny thing is that the more we pray and get into the Word, the more coincidences seem to follow us around. Coincidence? I'm open to discussion.
Matt,
Thanks for responding. I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been with my question... I wasn't really asking for biblical proof for subjective guidance broadly speaking (of which I would agree there is plenty), but biblical support for the specific forms of subjective guidance that we most often see today, namely, impressions, feelings of "peace", etc. (Of course, lying behind this question we have the broader issue of whether we have to have an absolutely clear Scripture reference for everything that occurs in the Christian life in order for it to be valid, but I didn't really want to get into that issue here...) Are there any biblical references for these specific forms of subjective guidance, or are we reduced to arguments from silence and appeals to church history and Christian experience?
I'm sorry if my initial question was unclear. Hopefully this will clarify things a bit.
Thanks for the interaction,
gh
Hey Garrett,
hmmm... I am just going to have to say that I can't claim to be some kind of "Bible Answer Man" that always has a good answer. I just don't know the Bible well enough to say one way or the other. I would say that the Bible gives examples and texts that show the subjective is valid, but they don't show what exact form the subjective comes in (or must come in).
I have heard some Christians voice that they wish God would have told us exactly how New Testament prophets got their subjective message (not in those exact words), and I know what they mean, but God is all wise and He revealed what needed to be revealed.
These are not subjective examples so much, but let me use them to illustrate a point. I think if Moses told everyone, "God only speaks to people through a burning bush" that would make the way He speaks too narrow. If Elijah said God only speaks in, "the sound of a low whisper" (1 Kings 19:12) that too would be a false assumption. My point is that God spoke to different people in the Bible in different and unique ways. To isolate God speaking subjectively down to one way might not be wise because maybe He has chosen to speak subjectively to different people in different ways. I hope I am not sounding like some liberal. I am not saying that anything that someone claims as a vaild subjetive experience is valid, I am just saying there is probably more than one way in which God speaks subjectively.
So, "are we reduced to arguments from silence and appeals to church history and Christian experience?" In regards to if the subjective is valid, no. In regards to which exact form the subjective should come to us in, probably (because I don't know enough to say for sure) yes."
I would love to hear Charles Leiter or Paul Washer chime in on this...
In Christ,matt haney
Matt,
I wasn't trying to back you into a corner that you couldn't escape from, so I hope I didn't come across that way. I was just trying to get at the heart of the issue for those who take the opposite position (such as Kyle and Brian above), as well as attempt to clarify my own thinking on the issue. I've never heard Paul speak on this directly, but I have heard Charles share on it several times and I don't think he would say anything different than what you have already said. If you wish to continue this further, feel free to email me directly at gholthaus@gmail.com
Thanks again for all of your helpful comments. I hope that some of the people who disagreed with you above would now interact with you further after you explained your position more fully.
Take care,
gh
No one has yet taken the challenge I posed in comment #36...many have probably stopped reading by now!? I would really like someone to challenge my position, if you would.
Moving on, the recent discussion of the "subjective" is a most hot topic among us reformed types. The idea of the subjective for most is too closely tied to the relative...which is too close to spiritual death for many. Quoting passages about subjective leadings and even pointing to Romans 14 makes many of my frieds queezy and down right flustered over the prospect of anything gray or relative.
I, as a Calvinist who loves propositional truth, empathize greatly with this fear of the subjective. However, understanding the Creator/creation distinction, especially in a fallen world dominated by sin, I also have to face it and embrace the subjective.
To God there is no subjective, there is no relativity. Omniscience and sovereignty completely rule out subjectivity. So from the Creator God's perspective subjectivity is simply impossible.
On the other hand, the creation, we finite and fallible men, who do not posess omniscience or sovereignty are faced with subjectivity continually.
The Doctrine of Limited Atonement...a doctrine I hold to tenaciously and with great love, is subject to whether or not I have accurately understood the scripture. It is only true as long as my understanding is consistent with reality.
God's thoughts are never inconsistent with reality, if they were then reality would be in transition, or God would not be God. Subjectivity is a uniquely creaturely experience. It is a necessary aspect of what it means to be a creature. Apart from authoritative divine revelation we are left to nothing but subjective opinion. Even with divine revelation in God's word we are in dependence upon the Spirit of God Illumining and making sense of the divine word that we might understand it apart from dubious speculations of a subjective nature. Even then the broad sweeping reality of debates on vertually ever single doctrine shows us the overwhelming reality of subjectivity.
This does not tell us that God is himself subject to this mallady, it merely tells us that we are steeped in it to our heads. Whether we like it or not the subjective rules us apart from what is specifically written in the Bible. What is not specifically written in the Bible is inherently subjective...hence the necessity of Sola Scriptura! Learning these things has caused me to better embrace and evaluate subjective leadings, subjective decisions, etc...