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Why John Piper Should Not Have Invited Rick Warren
- 04/05/10
- 77
So John Piper has asked Rick Warren to speak at this year’s Desiring God National Conference, Think: The Life of the Mind and the Love of God. You may have heard about this, either through buzz in the blogosphere or even from Piper himself in his recent Ask Pastor John session. I have known this for some time now as Warren told me himself when I visited Saddleback last September. So I have had a long time to reflect on it. And having done so, I am persuaded that it is not a good idea.
Before I explain myself, let me provide a bit of background on my relationship with Rick Warren and John Piper. I think people who read this site sometimes imagine that I am more connected with the big-name preachers or authors than is really the case. It’s only fair to point out that I do not have much of a personal relationship with either man. I have met both of them but have spent meaningful time with each of them just once, which means I know them best through their public ministries. I have read three books by Warren and perhaps a dozen by Piper. I have seen both of them preach and have met some of the people who minister alongside them. Perhaps mostly significantly, I have been a member of churches heavily influenced by each of them; the last church I attended was very much built around the Saddleback model while Grace Fellowship Church is very much in debt to Piper. Thus I have seen their churches, their ministries and the effects of their ministries on others.
So much for background. But before I continue, let me offer one more word. John Piper inviting Rick Warren to speak at the conference is not that big of a deal. It matters, to be sure, but not enough to get too riled up. It’s important that we put it in its proper context. Piper did not invite Robert Schuller or the Dalai Lama, someone who outright denies the gospel. Warren professes faith in Christ and professes an evangelical understanding of that faith. Furthermore, this conference is Piper’s gig and he is free to invite whomever he wants (or whomever he is permitted within whatever structure there is inside of Desiring God). His house, his rules.
Having said all of this, I still believe it would have been best for Piper not to invite Warren. In inviting Warren, Piper is implicitly downplaying the reasons that many Reformed Christians have expressed concern about Warren and his ministry and have separated themselves from both. Yet these are good reasons based around sound biblical concerns. Let me look at this under two headings.
Honoring Scripture
Warren has proven repeatedly that he does not and will not honor the Bible. He preaches from the Bible, he knows vast amounts of Scripture and I’m sure he loves studying the Bible. But his ministry makes clear that he does not truly honor it in the way he uses it. I hardly even know where to begin here. Turn to any of Warren’s books and you will see that this is the case. Time and time again he has misused and abused the Bible. Years ago I read The Purpose Driven Life day-by-day and blogged my way through each chapter. I looked up each and every Bible reference. And in almost every chapter I found that Warren had used Scripture poorly, stretching its meaning, choosing translations that, more than being true to the text, furthered his intended meaning. This is the way he always has used Scripture and the way he continues to today. Turn to just about any review of his books and you’ll find multitudes of examples.
John Piper, on the other hand, has a long history of ministry in which he seeks to extend the utmost care to the Bible. He preaches verse-by-verse, carefully expositing the Word of God, seeking to be absolutely faithful to the text. And few preachers have done a better job of this over a long pulpit ministry.
The contrast between these two preaching styles and, even more so, these two ways of using the Bible, could not be more stark. John Piper honors the Bible, Rick Warren very often does not. What frustrates me is that I know Warren knows better! For some reason he does not seem offended by what he must know is his own misuse of the Bible.
This is not to say that with his invitation Piper has endorsed such a way of understanding and using the Bible. And yet by inviting Warren he seems to implicitly downplay its significance. This differs, at least in my mind, from inviting a Presbyterian to a Baptist conference. In that case, the Baptist may say, “I disagree with your theology in this, but I understand that you have been faithful to Scripture, at least in the way you understand it, in coming to this conclusion.” We can affirm that a person can come to wrong conclusions even while honoring the Bible. But I don’t think we can say this about Rick Warren. He abuses the Bible and does so habitually.
I am persuaded that this matters. I can’t think of another speaker Piper has invited to one of his conferences who uses and misuses the Bible the way Warren does. This is not about Warren being a 5-point Calvinist—I think there ought to be room for non-Reformed speakers at such conferences. But that is a whole different topic. My concern here is the way he treats Scripture.
All Things to All Men
Second only to my concern about Rick Warren’s consistent history of misusing Scripture is this: he seemingly seeks to be all things to all men. As you might perceive, I am not using this phrase in a complimentary way. I want to be careful here, but what I have seen from Warren is not so much that he will claim to be both A and B, but that he will claim to be A and Not A. There is a strange kind of subjectivism in his allegiances and in his beliefs.
In the Ask Pastor John video, Piper mentioned a list of questions he asked Rick Warren—questions about what he believes and why. He said that he asked Warren about these things just two hours before filming Ask Pastor John. Yet the conference invitation was extended all the way back in the fall of 2009. This was not Piper asking questions to determine whether Warren was qualified to speak at the conference, but Piper asking questions to defend his decision. And Warren always knows exactly what to say. I truly believe this is one of the means by which he has become so popular and gained such a large platform—he always knows what to say to please a particular audience.
Piper is understandably excited about Warren’s regard for Jonathan Edwards. Yet we cannot deny that his ministry looks nothing like a ministry influenced by Edwards. Can you even imagine what Edwards would say about The Purpose Driven Life or an Easter church service featuring the Jonas Brothers? A and not A.
Here is what I’ve seen and what so many critics have pointed out: Warren will adapt what he says to fit his crowd; he will also adapt how he says it. The message always fits the audience. Now in one sense this is well and good—I will speak differently to a group of high school kids than I will to a meeting of the entire church. But ultimately the message will be the same and what I believe will be the same. Yet when it comes to Warren, there appears to be a great deal of malleability. He will be one thing for one audience and another thing for another audience. He will move seamlessly back and forth. He will be A and then Not A as the situation demands. Here now he has an opportunity to be Calvinistic and to reach out to that Reformed crowd that has been skeptical if not downright scornful about his ministry. And I’ve got no doubt that he’ll play his part. He will probably speak well and blow away the audience. But two weeks later he may be at another conference singing a whole new tune.
Again, this conflicts so plainly with John Piper’s ministry—Piper who preaches the same message in the same way no matter where he goes or who he faces. He may adapt his style to the listener, but never will he adapt his message. Always he will preach Christ and him crucified. He will be unpopular if necessary, but always he will be faithful. And again, in inviting Warren he implies that being all things to all men—Reformed to the Reformed, Emergent to the Emerging—is not an issue of great importance.
Been There, Done That
Allow me one personal note. As I said at the outset, I have spent at least four years in a Warren church and four years in a Piper-influenced church. I’ve spoken to hundreds of people who have been involved in each kind of church. And when it comes to Warren’s Purpose Driven model, I’ve been there, done that and have the scars to prove it. I’ve seen how his kind of ministry plays out. I’ve read the book Transitioning which describes the (sometimes brutal) process of making an established church a Purpose Driven church. I’ve seen what it does, I’ve seen how it treats people, I’ve seen how it hurts them and stunts their growth. I’ve received innumerable e-mails from people who have experienced the same thing. And I know that John Piper couldn’t possibly be part of such a church, nor would he ever tell his flock to be part of one.
While I don’t doubt that Rick Warren loves the church and loves the Lord, neither do I doubt that he does harm to the people and to the Name he loves so much. To invite him to this conference is to downplay all of the harm brought about by his unbiblical and pragmatic style of ministry.
Conclusion
Before I wrap up I want to affirm my respect for John Piper. There are few men whose ministry I value more than his and few preachers I respect more. None of this is meant to make him out to be a bad person or one who is acting out of ill motives. But I believe he has shown a lapse of discernment in inviting Rick Warren to his conference and onto his platform. And that’s the thing about platforms—once built, they need to be nurtured, preserved and protected. John Piper must know that he is massively influential; this endorsement of Rick Warren ultimately strengthens Warren’s platform and weakens his own.
I am glad that through his conferences John Piper is not trying to build the young, restless, Reformed as much as he’s seeking to just preach truth. That is a good and noble goal. It is a goal that allows him to look outside of a safe little group of approved speakers. At the same time, Rick Warren is way outside that group and for good reason. Warren’s critics have not always been fair to him and yet neither have they been without justifiable and significant concerns. His ministry is in so many ways antithetical to Piper’s. It surprises me and maybe disappoints me a little bit that he has been invited to share that platform.
At yet let’s heed Piper’s warning not to fall into an error of secondary separation. There is no need for us to separate from Piper over such a decision. We have plenty of latitude to disagree with him; let’s do so with respect for him and for his long and faithful history of ministry to the church. The sky is not falling, the world will go on.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I write books and blogs for fun while doing web design and consulting for a living. I worship and serve at 
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Comments (77)
Actually, all of those reasons demonstrate why, in fact, this IS a big deal. And why does it seem like so many people feel the need to qualify that they are not “doubting Warren’s love for Christ and the Church?” The Word actually warns us against men like Warren. If anything, we should be calling this man to repentance.
Tim,
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I completely disagree with his decision to invite Warren. It’s one thing to maybe have him on a panel to ask him questions about theology, but to have him actually preach the Word which, as you have said, has been distorted by him in the past, isn’t smart.
That said, there are too many knee-jerk reactions going on. People saying they will never read his books or recommend his ministry materials again. Some saying that all the other speakers shouldn’t be involved as well, or they are sinning themselves.
There is fine line between discernment and legalism, and I think this post proves you are in the right camp.
Well said Tim. Thank you.
I truly appreciate how carefully you chose your words on this issue. As someone who left a purpose-driven model church four years ago, I know how easy it is to go from being critical of that model of ministry to simply being critical of the leadership in the church that made the decision to become purpose-driven.
I am a preacher in a reformed church plant and even now, four years later, people from my old church still come to me and ask me why I left. It is always a difficult conversation, because my sinful pride and arrogance want to leap out and slander the leadership and the ministry for pursuing a direction I would not have chosen for my congregation. It is good to see Christian love and Christian rebuke going hand in hand, the way God designed them to work.
Thank you for providing me a great example of how to show Godly love for my brothers in Christ, while standing strong in my convictions against their choice of ministry model.
Keep up the great writing!
Definitely great article. I think it is That big of a deal, but otherwise I agree completely. Glad to see your respectful disagreement.
Tim, thank you for this reasonable response.
I’ve been hoping you would chime in on this matter, given your balanced assessment of your visit to Saddleback last year, your familiarity with Piper’s ministry, and your writings on the subject of discernment (through your book).
Thank you for serving me (and undoubtedly others) by helping me think through this, and putting it in perspective. It is by far the most thoughtful piece I’ve read so far, and I think it would be great if you sent Rick a link to it.
Speaking of links, I use Google Buzz to share links, and was wondering if you would consider adding a “Buzz this” link alongside your “tweet” and “share” (fb) buttons. Here’s how:
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/google-buzz-button/
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER!!!
Years from now, Christianity will trace the beginning of its doctrinal decline to this moment!
The Jonas Brothers will be the new pope.
Good heavens, this is a tempest in a teapot, and you have to be really buried in the Christian Calvinist subculture to even care.
As one who would (sometimes grudgingly) consider himself a fundamentalist, I appreciate your words on this issue. I believe that you are modeling a biblical response to the situation and I appreciate it.
I see two directions one can fall into error in response to this issue. One can avoid the issue entirely and act as if nothing is amiss. That is wrong, and you obviously have not done it. One can also overreact and consider this to be proof that John Piper doesn’t get it and his ministry has lost value and relevance (a reaction all to common among Fundamentalists). I thank God that you have done neither. Well said.
I’ve been hoping you would chime in on this matter, given your balanced assessment of your visit to Saddleback last year, your familiarity with Piper’s ministry, and your writings on the subject of discernment (through your book).
Thank you for serving me (and undoubtedly others) by helping me think through this, and putting it in perspective. It is by far the most thoughtful piece I’ve read so far, and I think it would be great if you sent Rick a link to it.
Speaking of links, I use Google Buzz to share links, and was wondering if you would consider adding a “Buzz this” link alongside your “tweet” and “share” (fb) buttons. Here’s how:
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/google-buzz-button/
Thanks for a careful, measured response. This is a model of how to respond to such “controversies” as this. I respect Piper and give him the benefit of the doubt. I hope the interview he refers to will happen and he may be an influence on Warren rather than the other way around.
At the end of the day, we should be able to disagree over Piper’s actions charitably, rather than reacting as so many have done. I fear where a knee jerk reaction from a sectarian spirit run wild will lead us. I really appreciate Piper’s response and reasoning, and his call to beware of secondary separation. I’ve said so on my blog and have seen friends react in a variety of ways on this.
I’ll be linking to your post here.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
“He said that he asked Warren about these things just two hours before filming Ask Pastor John. Yet the conference invitation was extended all the way back in the fall of 2009. This was not Piper asking questions to determine whether Warren was qualified to speak at the conference, but Piper asking questions to defend his decision.”
This is what has me upset. I never thought Piper would be one to play that kind of game. It makes him look reckless in inviting Warren without having asked those questions at the outset and it makes him look like a spin doctor for only asking them now when he is doing damage control in the face of criticism.
I also thought Piper would be discerning enough to know the kind of chameleon he is dealing with. Warren may be reading Edwards this year, but for all we know he read Charles Finney the year before and Robert Schuller the year before that!
Why John Piper Should Have Invited Rick Warren:
On the other hand, both John Piper and Rick Warren have extraordinary reach and have been - each in their own ways - very effective and quite popular as church pastors, church planting experts, and pastors to pastors.
Galatians 6:1 says something about, “If any of you is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should gently restore him. But watch yourself, or you may also be tempted.”
My sense - having gone to school with John Piper’s kids and seen the trajectory of his life (he spoke at my 8th grade graduation … and later at my grad school graduation) - is that John Piper will not allow himself or others to be corrupted by inviting Rick Warren to come and speak, any more than Rick Warren was corrupted by bringing John McCain and Barack Obama to speak at Saddleback (on national TV). The greatest temptation for someone like Pastor Piper - or many Reformed theologians - is to have such a burning desire for theological purity that we fail to engage with a world that is, to a large extent, post-Christian. It is easy for pride to keep us isolated, sitting in the upper room, feeling persecuted and misunderstood, and thinking that, “If only everyone loved Jesus as much as I did…”
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Rick Warren and John Piper are two men of great faith. They are both men who have had successful ministries. They both represent an archetype of pastoral goodness, and each in their own way. And I welcome such encounters. I think that encounters between men of great faith - especially men who are different in temperament and ministerial approach - are a joy for all followers of Jesus. Can you imagine if Peter had refused to accept Paul?
I wonder what the panel discussion will be like. I’ve heard some speakers called out by questions regarding their message during the conference. (Always in a gracious way, but still called to explain themsleves.) That will be interesting.
Tim,
Thank you so much for putting concisely and clearly the issues that are stake. Your clarity here is a help to the church and her pastors.
I think a better venue for getting at Warren’s understanding of how pragmatism fits in the church would have been a recorded interview or even a pre-conference event that would allow for some distance for clear thinking and response. Dr. Piper could still interview and present challenges to both Warren and the reformed community. But, there wouldn’t be such a troubling co-mingling of truth and heresy.
I agree. Rick Warren has been invited to a number of Anglican conferences in the United States. There is a small gulf in American orthodox Anglicanism between reformed/evangelical Anglicans and more “catholic” minded ones. Warren, I think, is invited to these conference because it is assumed he will be well received by the evangelical wing and all sides are certainly interested in church growth…a topic about which many consider him an expert.
In any case, he is an engaging speaker and always brings encouragement to oft-beleaguered Anglicans for which I am thankful, but I think his understanding of the “purpose” of the Church is a dangerous one for any denomination or congregation to adopt. True, solid, lasting growth, both in numbers and in faith can only come through the power of God’s Word faithfully, clearly, and consistently proclaimed from the pulpit.
Maybe I need to reread your article but I couldn’t help shaking my head in somewhat disbelief by what I was reading. The perch that the Reformed movement has somehow loftily sat on over the past few years is somewhat troubling and somewhat exclusive.I do not disagree with your premise that Warren has had some very questionable doctrinal issues in the past but there are many good, on target, Biblical things that he has taught. What better a place to give someone a platform for the people to judge the fruit than the Desiring God conference? If anything, people have a chance to hear him, judge his fruit and make a decision from that point on. It may also lead for an opportunity for Warren to answer some of the concerns you have written above but also for Piper and him to talk privately, something that many bigger names cannot have in their busy schedules.I also find it troubling that you have no concerns for Piper but many for Warren; however, you are not a journalist so that would be an unfair expectation. Your statements of pro-Reformed is some of the reasons for my own distaste towards the Reform movement as a whole. Just some thoughts from my keyboard.
Well Tim, we can work together, or we can work against each other. Piper is wise in working with Rick Warren. The end we strive for is the same, getting thousands into the kingdom of God. I personally would lean tward John Pipers teachings, but one cannot deny the “Rick Warren” type churches and the multitudes flocking through their doors. And their not likely to go away any time soon.
Thanks Tim for stating graciously the concerns that many of us hold about this situation.
The 30 million or so purchasers of ‘Purpose Driven Life’ would do well to read this post and take heed to the discernment and very balanced, Biblical and sensible warning, Tim has sounded.
If I invited Rick Warren to my house, my family would be doing the same things and asking all of the same kind of questions that all of us lookers-on are doing with this matter. So, I guess I’d need to meet with Pastor Warren at McDonalds or Starbucks instead. As the Wicked Witch of the West put it, in the Wizard of Oz, “These things must be done delicately.”
I think that your writing here has OVER-Discernment all over. Lets call a wolf a wolf, whether he says he believes the gospel or not.You stated that RW “professes faith in Christ and professes an evangelical understanding of that faith.”However his fruits, very outwardly are of another gospel.Any other gospel, any, is another gospel.P. 59 alone of his book seems to have the power of the pope, granting salvation to “anyone” who says a little prayer.And I, being one of his ex-students or a PDL disciple (taken the PDL 3 times) before I was truly saved, can testify, when I read the Bible through, found the Bible of Scriptures completely different than the Bible presented by reading the twisted verses of the PDL.From a church layman’s experience, there is a huge difference.I was saved by the PDL, until I read the Bible, in context, then I realized that I was on a path NOT of Christ, but of myself worth, a path that had neon signs (so-to-speak) encouraging me to keep on this path, and to be focusing on myself, and what works I can and should be doing.No my Brothers, this is a completely different gospel that RW teaches.One that tickles the ears and soothes the flesh.One that although I believe he is well meaning, so were the founders of Mormon and Jehovah Witnesses when they started out by excluding Hell and what the Bible really teaches on sin and repentance.PDL is the same lie, packaged is a different skin, but still a pack of lies…Not the Gospel.
Tim, I often find you too conciliatory but I am glad to see you are on the right side of this (yes I realize people will say this is a matter of opinion but I say the Scripture is quite clear about lending one’s credibility to those who do not bring a true *confession* (not a privately held orthodox statement of faith) 2 John 9 etc.
you said: “John Piper inviting Rick Warren to speak at the conference is not that big of a deal. It matters, to be sure, but not enough to get too riled up. It’s important that we put it in its proper context. Piper did not invite Robert Schuller or the Dalai Lama, someone who outright denies the gospel. “
Well if that isn’t damning with faint praise… I had to laugh, but really, it is.
Then you go on to say “This is not to say that with his invitation Piper has endorsed such a way of understanding and using the Bible. And yet by inviting Warren he seems to implicitly downplay its significance.”
But isn’t that what you just did? You said it’s not that big of a deal… (?) Well is it or isn’t it? I’m not sure how you have clarified much, with statements like that.
You also seem to have missed (although I suppose it could be read into what you wrote) the huge slap in the face it is to have John Piper endorse the man many of us see as hugely responsible for the abuse they suffered at the hands of his followers and promoters. The whole thing downplays our very real grief both in the past and as it is brought up over and over every time Rick makes a public statement that invariably contains falsehoods in the name of Christ.
The abuse is widespread enough that the Wall Street Journal did a story on it, remember?
If I recall correctly, Piper mentioned in the “Ask Pastor John” video that he wanted at the conference a prolonged Q and A session with Rick Warren. Given the setting, one can imagine the intensity and seriousness of that dialogue.
Is it possible that the Lord might be going to use this opportunity to reshape the theology and ministry of an errant servant of His?
I had been a Christian for MANY years before God saw fit to send the crucible that refined my theology. And, it was through the friendship of a no nonsense, straight shooting, reformed believer. God is putting Rick Warren smack dab in the middle of a roomful of those kind of people.
Thanks, Tim. I was initially puzzled by Piper’s decision to invite Warren to the upcoming DG conference. Piper is my pastor and I’m still not 100% certain how I feel about the invitation. However, that puzzlement was soon overwhelmed by a sadness and disgust by the massively over-the-top reactions to this decision by… well, I think most of us know who.
Well reasoned and well written, Tim. Whether or not this proves to be a lapse in judgment by John Piper (time will tell), I fully support his right to invite Warren, and his defense of his decision.
Great post Tim. I couldn’t agree with you more.
Great post Tim. I couldn’t agree with you more.
This was not Piper asking questions to determine whether Warren was qualified to speak at the conference, but Piper asking questions to defend his decision.
I agree with the comments identifying this conclusion as very troubling. Rick Warren’s been at Saddleback for 30 years, has written books, and has done many interviews. Becoming familiar with his teachings is not a difficult process, and I would have expected that the DG staff do so as due diligence before they issued any invitation to speak. I’d expect that from my local church elders before filling the pulpit with a guest preacher; why would a national conference have any lower an accountability standard?
Further, Dr. Piper’s comments shift the focus from where it really should lie, and where Tim has put it: the public realm. In my discussions about this topic, I’ve tried to be very clear that my concerns are not related to questions of personal orthodoxy or faith in Warren, but rather, in giving implied endorsement to his teachings through this invitation.
Given the widespread influence that Warren’s teaching has already had, this is a big deal. At best, it presents mixed messages, and confusion in the body does not aid anyone in determining or standing for the truth.
Boo. I disagree. We need to blur the lines between two incredibly faithful Christians who are reaching the lost. Satan wants nothing more than for us to divide over MINOR theological arguments. It was risky for Jesus to spend time with Mary Magdalene. It was risky for Jesus to speak with the woman at the well. Sure, it may be “risky,” but that is what the Gospel is all about. Risking distinction so we can find similarities.
Thanks for sharing this, Tim. I was encouraged that you recognized these things even though I disagree with you that the things you mentioned are not a big deal in terms of Piper’s implicit endorsement of them. I hope you can clarify something for me, though: Some people know that I have come out saying that I can no longer endorse Piper because of his discernment. When you mention not separating in the final paragraph, are you referring to 1) people not counting Piper as a brother anymore over this decision or 2) people not sending other people Piper’s way because of this example of his recent discernment (which are two independent things)? In other words, how are you defining separation? I wouldn’t agree with those who are advocating 1). I still consider Piper a brother and value him greatly as one. I believe that in this situation, he needs our prayer, but I do endorse 2) which is not sending others to be influenced by his discernment now that this example of it has been made public until he has stated that he was in the wrong for doing this. Just a little clarification there would be appreciated. Thanks again, and take care.
This is a BIG deal and a disappointing deal as well. Thanks for your carefully written blog regarding Piper’s decision. I would only be more shocked if GCC Shepherd’s Conference had invited Warren.
Just recently I spoke on ‘Rick Warren and things Purpose Driven’ and I reached radically different conclusions than those expressed by John Piper - especially about Warren’s ‘soundness’. My talk can be heard on this link http://www.gbc-peel.org.uk/audiosermons.htm - it is the talk listed for 17th March.
Warmly in Christ
Cecil Andrews’Take Heed’ MinistriesNorthern Irelandwww.takeheed.net
Tim,You said: “… this endorsement of Rick Warren ultimately strengthens Warren’s platform and weakens his own.”
I’m not sure that I see an endorsement by Piper here. In the video explaination Pastor Piper said he was inviting RW to have a 1-1 conversation with him. So far I’ve not seen any invitation for RW to preach on anything. But then again I may be mistaken…
Whether in 1st century Israel or 21st century Lake Forest, CA; the un-biblical teachings of men must be rebuked by men of the Spirit, by that same Spirit, and in the love of the Spirit that Christ sent to guide us. Pastor Warren deserves no less than what Peter offered to the Pharisees. And I can’t think of a better man to do it than Pastor Piper… Can you?
In Christ,
Dan…
Tim,
Insightful as usual.
Good example of the need for Discernment with Purpose.
Purpose without Discernment is a bad thing (as many here assert from experience).
Some are saying Discernment without Purpose is also an issue. If Discernment is primarily used to criticize others (criticism of Reformed position?) it lessens its effectiveness.
Discernment with Purpose is seeking God’s will and being obedient. It is a constant process. Does it allow inviting someone you disagree with to a conference? I think so. If RW continues to be all things to all people (without Discernment) and JP does not acknowledge this afterward, then there may be an issue.
Is it Discernment to say a leopard will never change its spots or someone without Discernment will not repent? That is a bit aggressive for my taste. We need to engage/confront in order to Discern and I appreciate JP doing that directly.
Part of judging a tree by its fruit. Also loving concern for one another.
Thanks for the insight. I too have a lot of respect and appreciation for Mr. Piper, but am truly disappointed at the choice. I want to research more about what Dan said, it would be great if Piper was inviting Warren to effectively “rebuke” as he said the “un-biblical teachings of men”, but that is not what I thought this conference was about.
Praying that we all continue to dig deeper and deeper into God’s Word for ourselves, and allow the Holy Spirit to speak clearly to us.
It’s too bad we have such a celebrity culture in the American church. We’re fascinated with big names, big buildings, big conferences and big congregations. Seems like much of it simply gets in the way of Jesus building His church…
I started a response but I’m having a hard time editing it. So after reading it over and over I have a question that I think will help in articulating my thoughts.
Assuming that there is an agreement that there are evidences of grace that we see in Rick Warren that leads us to believe that he is a believer, is there a difference between:
inviting a believer such as Rick Warren to speak at a conference whose talk will be followed up with interactive dialogue and
inviting somebody such as Rick Warren to preach in the pulpit of your church to the flock that God has entrusted you (the pastor) to shepherd?
I would say that there is. What say you??
The following may be of interest to you…it is also a write up on John Piper and Rick Warren.
www.takeheed.net/Take_Heed_2010/Current_Concerns/April_2010/john_piper_i…
Tim, I really appreciate the way you disagree with Piper. You have expressed your disappointment and disagreement with true Christ-likeness. I have been really surprised by the anger and ugliness toward Piper and Warren after it was announced that he was invited to the conference. The blogosphere can be a very un-charitable and un-Christlike arena at times.
I personally have not had an issue with Piper inviting Warren. I am convinced that John Piper has good discernment and probably asked enough questions beforehand to make a wise and prayerful decision. I wonder if this isn’t going to be an opportunity for God to work on Rick Warren and draw him toward a more Biblically sound doctrine. Warren may be errant in many areas and methods, but it’s not like Piper has invited Benny Hinn or chosen to broadcast his conference on TBN. I think Dr. Al Mohler’s article on theological triage is useful in this discussion: http://www.albertmohler.com/2005/07/12/a-call-for-theological-triage-and…
I do agree totally with you assessment of the chameleon-like nature of Warren. I have heard him speak three times, once at the Southern Baptist Convention, once at his church, and once at Catalyst. It’s three different Warren’s…we’ll see a new incarnation of Warren for sure at the DGM conference.
Thank you Tim, I appreciate what you’ve said here. I don’t have a comment about the decision to invite Rick Warren, but I am thankful for your giving expression to the concerns of many. These are hard days, I think, for many in the church, who just want to see the glorious truth about God upheld by faithful men.
I agree with you on most points, but I guess I’d have to disagree when you said that Piper’s invitation to Warren is not a big deal. It is! The gospel is every faithful Christian’s business. And when someone tramples on it and sugar-coats it, shouldn’t we react against that?
You said, “It’s important that we put it in its proper context. Piper did not invite Robert Schuller or the Dalai Lama, someone who outright denies the gospel.” Does the “denial of the gospel” have to be outright before we cry “foul?”
That’s why a lot of us don’t understand why Piper not only wanted to associate with Warren, but more surprisingly, invited him to a national conference. Influencing a brother like Warren is one thing, but allowing him to speak in a conference is another.
But still, I hope we will never forget to rebuke with love and to not lose ourselves and our temper in the midst of this brouhaha.
Thanks for the post, Tim. You have always been level-headed and gracious in your critiques.
Warren is not perfect and has indeed made mistakes (intentional or not) in his ministry, writing and teaching. However, he also has valid things to say to each of us.
Piper is not perfect and has indeed made mistakes (intentional or not) in his ministry, writing and teaching. However, he also has valid things to say to each of us.
Let us not be divisive, but let us love one another, tenderhearted, forgiving as God in Christ forgave us.
Well thought out, well written and overall an EXCELLENT piece. I just have a minor disagreement and that is whether it is that big of a deal or not. I fall down on the side that it is a big deal considering Piper’s influence and endorsement of Rick Warren as a “good” guy who is a theological conservative, without the necessary qualification that you mentioned above.
Also people, who think this may be a bridge to meet with Rick Warren, are forgetting that Piper is not just befriending him to help him out, but is giving him a platform in a major conference. If there is someone in my town whom I have some serious theological or practical disagreements with, I do not give them access to the pulpit in our church to try to build a bridge with them. I befriend them outside the church and meet with them regularly to seek to influence them.
I am incredibly thankful for the loving stand you are taking. It is certainly an encouragement to many of us.
The world will not end , nor will the gates of hell prevail for the gospel , preached clearly, will always be getting done. That being said Warren , has put his foot in his mouth more often than not when put on the hot seat . All you have to do is google him and read , even within context , and watch his double speak or blurring of his positions . If he is in reformed circles , he is reformed speaking ,if not he embraces whatever he is around. Not to the point of denying the exclusivity of Jesus but he still muddies the waters.Dr.James White has argued for years now what you win them with , is what you win them to. In other words the faulty , mixed theology will bear fruit in the future and the stuff from Saddleback and Warren’s other side kick in poor theology Bill Hybels , will show itself in the future and I don’t think the fruit will be pleasant . So Piper dropped the ball on this one .
“Is it possible that the Lord might be going to use this opportunity to reshape the theology and ministry of an errant servant of His?”
I love this from a previous post. Something of this nature has happened before in recent and distant past to prominent speakers. God does not waste any circumstance in our lives and you can bet that there have been people out there praying for Warren to stop being wishy washy and buckle down with a solid message. Could this be an answer to prayer rather than a lapse in Piper’s judgment? Absolutely. My scriptures tell me that my God who began a good work in me will be faithful to complete it. If Rick Warren truly began with a genuine profession of faith then that means that by whatever means necessary God will be faithful to complete that work in him as well. I do believe that Piper would respond in an appropriate manner if Warren were to speak heresy or if he were to find inconsistencies with his material or use of scripture. Piper is in fact in the best position to be one of those people to restore Warren to proper footing.
I’m going to take a wait and see approach to this one. Who knows what the Lord will do with it.
I’m a little surprised about Warren having the Jonahs bros. at an Easter service but not nearly as shocked as I would be if it were Brian McLaren Piper invited to the DG conference rather than Warren!!
One last thing . Although I agree that we should not separate from Piper and he has been a great help in my life but with inviting Doug Wilson last year (Federal Vision) and now Rick Warren , I have to say I’ll be watching very close to what will transpire once Piper comes back from his sabbatical . Often times men of God can become a bit funny as they age . Lets hope this is not the case with John .
Reading with interest. Not a fan of Piper. Not Reformed. No dog in this fight.
Yet I know full well of Warren and the devastation he has visited on the church. I, my wife, and six children were cast out of our Baptist church five years ago when I challenged the use of Purpose Driven Life.
Scripture is harsh when it comes to false teachers: “filthy dreamers”, “brute beasts”, “grievous wolves”, and more. Our Master mentioned “ravening wolves” in the sermon on the mount.
But we are not permitted to be harsh. We must make nice with the enemy. I wonder what our Master thinks of this.
Tim,
Good post, I would agree with you wholeheartedly, if this was Piper first offense of poor discernment, I would say your totally right . We are starting to see pattern of poor discernment with Piper.
This just the lastest chapter of the downgrade of John Piper, DGM, and BBC
1. BBC adopts Multi Site/Missional methodologies [ taken from Druckerites [Purpose Driven/Emergent folks] ]2. Piper embraces Mark Driscoll & Acts29 Network3. Piper gives Doug Wilson a national platform4. Piper embraces Rick Warren and appears to be giving him a Calvinistic makeover.
There should have been a bigger Red Flag with Wilson. Wilson doesn’t even get the Gospel right. Wilson’s Federal Vision is such a cancer in Reformed circles, All of the churches in the URCNA and major Reformed Seminaries wrote declarations against it. Many would and rightfully so call Doug Wilson a heretic.
I believe Seeker/Purpose Drivenism is cancer in SBC/Bible Church world. I left a church that I was a member of for 12 yrs that got hijacked by it. I know.Pragmatism is destroying those churches.