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20
August

The Poor and Poverty (I): A Christian Response [Ron]

01.10.06

Jesus, the Poor, & Poverty

Two successive articles in yesterday's and today's The Orange County Register caught my attention. On January 3, 2006, Jay Ambrose wrote a column entitled, "Hate the rich, hurt the poor" (Local, Opinion, p. 7). Apparently in a previous column Ambrose had put the idea forward that "…it seemed to me a misreading of the New Testament to suppose Jesus favored socialism, as some contend." What was Ambrose's reasoning in that previous article? He tells us: "I certainly urged that people care for the poor, I said, adding that it struck me as ludicrous to suppose he was also advocating an economic system that actually made people poorer."

He goes on to say that a woman-with a theological degree no less-emailed him saying that he must be rich. Obviously, they didn't teach logic where this woman got her theological degree. Why should someone jump to the conclusion that the author must be rich simply because he's stating his position? There are a number of people who are not "rich" who hold to the same position. Of course, there are also reasons why this woman wrote what she did. You can, for example, hold that Jesus was a quasi-socialist because you attended a liberal theological seminary that taught that in its "Ethics of Jesus" course. Such a conclusion could be the result of faulty exegesis. It could be that the woman is a left-wing Democrat, Greenie, or Loopy that despises Bush and his tax cuts for the rich.

What we need to look at, however, are just a few of the distortions that some Americans have about the rich. Unfortunately, a portion of the hatred is derived from the endless demagoguery that one hears on the radio or watches on TV. There are, no doubt, rich people who are greedy and despicable people, but that can't be the real reason for disliking them because poor people can also be greedy and despicable. Another way of looking at the "rich" is that they got where they are either by inheriting a ton of money (Paris Hilton), bilking others through scams, or getting rich off of insider stock trading (former DNC chairman Terry McAuliffe).

The mantra today, however, is that the rich just keep on getting richer and the poor just keep on getting poorer. But is that true? When I ask that question, I'm not looking for an emotional response, but a factual one. Even some of my colleagues as pastors fall into the trap of being overly concerned about the poor without getting the facts first. It's an easy trap to fall into because as a pastor who are supposed to be willing to give anyone money anytime for almost anything. This is why some make a living on going from church to church to get money. The stories are oft-repeated and predictable. "I'm from out of town and my car broke down and my wife and kids got nothing, man!" "My phone has been shut off and I just need $50.00 to make the payment." "We're living in a cheap hotel and my kids need food."

Don't get me wrong: I know there is real need in the world and I also know that the Church of Jesus Christ has an important role to play in caring for the destitute. My questions in this issue are: 1) what constitutes destitute and 2) what are the facts about poverty today. I ask these questions for a number of reasons not the least of which is that the modern Church and liberal theologians (i.e., Jim Wallis) are making pleas for us to go into the inner cities, to have compassion on the down-and-out, and to think about "global" poverty. Okay. Those are legitimate areas of concern, but we must not run off half-cocked and simply throw money at the problems like the liberal Social Gospel tribe did.

So if we're going to address the issue, let's do it right. Let's get the facts and put emotive statements or distortions on the back burner.

Fact number one: cutting taxes stimulates the economy.
Fact number two: the wealthy in this country pay the lion's share of the taxes.

As you can clearly see, the top 50% of American taxpayers contribute almost 97% of all income taxes. That's significant.
Fact number three: the wealthiest in this country provide the jobs for those who are poorer. In other words, the wealthiest are the entrepreneurs that provide the jobs for those in the work force. When was the last time you saw one of the teenagers in your neighborhood offering jobs?

Fact number four: The poor in America aren't actually getting poorer despite what the ideologues want us to think. This is where some are going to knee jerk, but before you start name calling or thinking me to be insensitive, consider some hard facts.

This brings me to the second newspaper article. In The Orange County Register of January 6, 2006, one of my favorite economists, Walter Williams, wrote a column entitled, "The poor aren't getting poorer" (Local, Opinion, p. 7). (For those who have had very little in economics or find it "boring," please allow me to suggest that you buy, read, and devour books by Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams on this topic.) Williams begins, "Despite claims that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, poverty is nowhere near the problem it was yesteryear-at least for those who want to work." (Emphasis mine.) The caveat is: for those who want to work. Note well, because that tends to be a problem often overlooked when we're talking about poverty.

Williams is correct when he observes, "Talk about the poor getting poorer tugs at the hearts of decent people and squares nicely with the agenda of big-government advocates, but it doesn't square with the facts." (Emphasis mine.) If you are not concerned with those who are truly destitute, then you don't have a pulse. However, our concern must be tempered by fact. What facts does Williams offer to support his position?

First, he mentions a book co-authored by Dr. Michael Cox (economic advisor to the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, TX) and Richard Alm (a business reporter for the Dallas Morning News) called Myths of Rich and Poor: Why We're Better Off Than We Think. Williams points out that the authors analyzed data from the University of Michigan Panel Study of Income Dynamics (sounds like a exciting group, doesn't it?), "which tracked more than 50,000 individual families since 1968." It was an "on-going" study from 1968-1999.
They discovered that only 5% of families in the bottom income quintile (the lowest 20%) in 1975 were still there in 1991. That happens. But their next discovery is also very noteworthy: "Three-quarters (75%) of these families had moved into the three highest quintiles." (Italics mine.) During that same period, a full 70% of those in the second-lowest income quintile moved to a higher quintile, with 25% of them moving to the top income quintile. That's significant, but you rarely hear anything like that from Jim Wallis, liberal theologians, the liberal political Left, or on CNN.

In addition, the Bureau of Census reported that the poverty rate in 1980 was 15% and in 1990 it was-want to guess?-15%. What makes this more significant is that "for the most part they are referring to different people." Cox and Alm's findings were supported by the U.S. Treasury that found that "85.8% of tax filers in the bottom income quintile in 1979 had moved on to a higher quintile in 1988-66% to second and third quintiles and 15% to the top quintile." Shazam! How did that happen? Was there some pixie dust? Did someone wave a magic wand? Did a welfare program come into effect that bolstered their incomes? Nope.

History has demonstrated that at every juncture there have been rich, poor, and those in between. There are those who are permanently rich and also those who are permanently poor, but Cox and Alm concluded that the United States constitutes something of an exception. "The percentages of Americans who are permanently poor or rich don't exceed single digits." Do you find that hard to believe? Why? Is it because we drank the Kool-Aid? Did we incredulously believe everything we saw on TV or heard on the radio or read in the newspaper?
The cry to overcome poverty in America needs to be tempered by correct information. This means that we have to think a little-which might be a rare undertaking for some. Let's say a particular group of people is "poor" in 1980, but by 1990 they are no longer considered such. Why might that be? A simple explanation is that someone who is a student at the age of 20 in 1980 is now 30 in 1990 and has a different, steady job. He's no longer flipping burgers, but he has a steady job after completing college or a trade school. Would anyone today be surprised to read "stats" that 30, 40, or 50-year-olds earn more than a 20-year-old? I certainly hope not, but some don't think this far.

Williams offers more for us to think about: "Households headed by someone under age 25 average $15,197 a year in income. Average income more than doubles to $33,124 for 25- to 34-year-olds. For those 35 to 44, the figure jumps to $43,923. It takes time for learning, hard work and saving to bear fruit." (All emphases mine.) And for a number in the U.S. today, this is precisely where the major rub comes in. One of the problems we face in America is that many of our young people are spoiled rotten and would rather hang out at the mall talking on their cell phones or playing video games. There are also some who would rather receive a welfare check than to work for an honest day's wages.

No-Brainer Behaviors

Williams concludes his insightful article with some handy tips. First, The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas found that "Households in the top income bracket have 2.1 workers; those in the bottom have 0.6 workers. In the lowest income bracket, 84 percent worked part time; in the highest income bracket 80% worked full time." Moral: Get a full-time job!

Moreover, "Only 7 percent of top income earners live in a 'nonfamily' household compared with 37 percent of the bottom income category." Moral: Look for a good husband or wife and get married.

Finally, when the FRB did its survey the unemployment rate in McAllen, TX was 17.5% while in Austin, TX, it was 3.5%. Moral: If you can't find a job in McAllen don't sit on the pity-potty of life. Get off your duff and move to where the jobs are. What do you think the people did that manufactured buggy whips when Ford invented the horseless carriage? Lay-offs happen all the time. Take charge and do something positive.

So the FRB-Dallas concluded the following: "Little on this list should come as a surprise. Taken as a whole, it's what most Americans have been told since they were kids-by society, by their parents, by their teachers."

That was in 1999. Today, however, I'm not so sure the conclusions reached by the FRB are still valid. In principle, they are, but society doesn't encourage people to strive harder. In fact, a good case can be made that a number of our leaders would love to have America be a socialist state. Welfare keeps people dependent on big government and wards of the state. Socialism-in whatever form is, in the words or Hayek, the road to serfdom.

What about parents and teachers? We are in a crisis with regard to parents being parents and teachers are more ideologues than teachers and rarely allow a fair exchange of ideas in the classroom. Just try to write a science paper on Intelligent Design or against Islam and watch the reaction. But there is hope. This can all be turned around. There is a definite, clear biblical answer to this dilemma as well. In future issues we'll delve into what the Bible has to say about work and welfare.

Pastor Ron Gleason, Ph.D.
Yorba Linda, CA

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Comments From Readers

1) A COMMENT BY randy buist:

Some interesting thoughts here by Ron... here is one thing that gets me as we talk about money, giving, etc.

We keep thinking the money we have, or earn, is ours. If everything we have belongs to God, then we need to hold our money loosely too. But it seems that somehow we come to believe that money belongs to us once we give God 10%.

It just seems that we become much more generous when we realize it is not ours to hoard for ourselves. But it has been given to us for God's glory...

Date  January 22, 2006 2:10 AM
2) A COMMENT BY Rattlesnake 6:

You and I must live on different planets. As pastors, it's our task to teach our congregations that all belongs to Christ. It can be done. Preaching a series on tithing and possessions. Focus it on Christ and connect it to the Christian life. Both the OT & NT have a lot to say about those truths. Support what you say from Scripture and let the congregation look up the texts.
I'm not exactly certain who the "We" is in your comments. Is it Christians in general? Christians that you know? Christians that you suspect?
Rs 6

Reader  Rattlesnake 6
Date  January 23, 2006 11:09 AM
3) A COMMENT BY Ken:

Hi Ron,

I realize it's been awhile since you posted this article, but I thought I'd comment anyhow. =) You ask what constitues destitute....

A two month old baby sleeping on a piece of cardboard on a sidewalk, three feet from a busy street.

A young mom with a baby under one arm poking through garbage trying to see if she can find food for her child.

A 6 year old surviving by stealing wallets at a local bar after the patrons are too drunk to notice (he's a creative little guy) because his family can't afford to feed him.

I saw all of this in the last week. I completely understand being concerned about our own countries and such....but you briefly mentioned "global poverty" as a concern, and then continued to write exclusively about the US. Are we as Christians called to be involved in alleviating global poverty? As a missionary, I would say yes. And I don't think it's a matter of just throwing money at the problem. That seems to be everyones excuse for not doing anything. Lets be honest...there are hundreds of excellent Christian organizations out there who know what they're doing and are working hard to share the Gospel and "help the poor", who are desperate for funding. But it's like pulling teeth to find adequate support. Why is that?

This is just my opinion =) but it seems to me that as "emerging" church type people talk more and more about these issues, the evangelical crowd pulls back farther and farther. It's astounding to me that, on many blogs and web pages, concern for the feeding and caring of for the poor automatically makes one a liberal. I'm pretty sure I'm not a liberal...but I can't stand by and watch people suffer everyday without trying to do my part to help. Maybe it's because it's happening in front of my house...I'm not sure.

At any rate, I'm not trying to disagree with your post. But just because this is true in the States...does that really matter? Should it free us then, from being involved in trying to alleviate suffering and poverty? Trust me, I'm not naive enough to suggest that we will ever see these things done away with...and I also understand that it's only through a relationship with Christ that anyone will truely be satisfied...but that baby is still living on the sidewalk and that young mom is still struggling daily to find enough food to survive on. Fortunately the 6 year old now lives at the children's home I work at, and is happy and fed, and going to school. In a very tangible way he's learning about, and understand better, the love that God his father has for him.

I know this is a difficult subject, and I'm quite sure I don't understand all the ramifications. But I'd be interested in you thoughts on this, if you ever make it back to this comment sections. =)

Take care Ron. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on all of this.

Ken

Reader  Ken
Date  February 22, 2006 3:08 PM
4) A COMMENT BY Ron Gleason:

Dear Ken,
When it comes down to global poverty, we need to be circumspect about how we spend our money. As the father of six and the grandfather of ten I do have compassion on the poor. This is biblical since there are a number of texts that specifically designate the care for the poor, the widow, and the orphan.
In many cases, however, our culture ends up simply "throwing money" at the problem. I'll use Africa as a case in point.
The Muslim influence combined with a neo-pagan attitude adds up to us spending (wasting) billions of dollars with nothing to show for it at the end of the day. I've also seen a number of the things you've described. They are sad, but--as often as not--are the result of a series of very bad choices. When they are not, the Deaconry in the local churches should be prepared to step in and do what they can. For this very reason, our Deaconry is well prepared spiritually and monetarily to help those both within and outside the household of faith.
Rattlesnake 6

Reader  Ron Gleason
Date  March 1, 2006 1:22 AM
5) A COMMENT BY Alex Hargrove:

I'm not familiar with Jesus ever commanding us to judge the past choices of the poor or for that matter, to judge the choices made by the parents and levy the consequences on them (as the pharisees did).

We're just to feed, hyrdate, and shelter "the least of among us." No disclaimer!

Just a thought.

Reader  Alex Hargrove
Date  March 8, 2006 3:07 PM
6) A COMMENT BY Alex Hargrove:

Sorry, I was reading this again and am just really bothered by it all. I think that conservative politicians disguised as ministers are working against who are working to help "the least of these."

This statement in particular really bothered me:

"The Muslim influence combined with a neo-pagan attitude adds up to us spending (wasting) billions of dollars with nothing to show for it at the end of the day."

A very uniformed generalization that goes to show how little you understand these issues. Furthermore, you take this narrow understanding and use it as a catalyst to pontificate on your political views.

I recommend reading more about the crisis in Africa:
http://www.data.org/action/muslimaction/

Do you see Jesus making this argument or would Jesus be knee deep in aids patients in the middle of Africa. In fact Jesus is these aids patients in Africa (Matthew 23).

I understand that a lot of money is wasted and we should have conversations about how to best manage the aid we're sending. Is that really what you should be concerned with as a minister though?

Reader  Alex Hargrove
Date  March 9, 2006 9:36 PM
7) A COMMENT BY Ken:

Hi Ron,

Wow, I wish some of those people would throw money at me! =) I'm not much of an expert on Africa, but I can give you a bit of a picture of South America. I don't see very many North Americans throwing money at this continent (at least not where I'm living).

As I think I mentioned, I work with street kids here. I'm not sure I would agree that they're where they are as a result of a series of bad decisions. Most of our kids were either beat up by alcoholic parents and left...or were simply abandoned (on average around 4 or 5 years of age) and left to fend for themselves. It's difficult for me to chastize a pregnant 15 year old when she's had absolutely no adult input into her life.

So...more specifically...the finances. We have four homes (run by nationals), and house around 200 children. There are 6 adults working with those 200 children. Keep in mind that even the youngest at 5 has been adicted to drugs and probably sexually abused. We would love to hire aditional staff, but we can barely manage to feed and clothe these kids. We are only one of a number of homes that are struggling for funding. Not to mention the fact that we are only making a small dent in the numbers of children who still live on the streets. We would love to open another home for babies with AIDS and for the elderly, who are also often left to survive as best they can by begging on the streets.

This is a great organization. The director and his wife (along with the rest of the staff) have sacrificed more than you can imagine (for the first 3 years the director slept in the cab of the home's truck because he didn't want to take a bed from one of the boys). I'm not saying that God hasn't blessed us, because He has. But honestly...no one's throwing money at us. I hear so many people say that they have compassion for the poor and those who are suffering....but unfortunately that compassion never seems to translate into anything tangible.

I also agree that the local church should have a hand in helping those who are suffering in their communities. That's something we're working on with the national churches. But again, I'm not sure it's fair to put that burden on people that are barely surviving themsleves. We in N.A. have been blessed beyond the imagination of many people in the world. In my thinking, that gives us an added responsibility. I guess I just get tired of hearing what seem to be excuses or justifications for not being more generous. What is our responsibility as North Americans to the suffering in the world?

At any rate...if you need a list of good organizations who will treat your finances with respect and put your money to good use....just let me know. I can get you a list. =) I appreciate the dialogue Ron. Take care.

Ken

Reader  Ken
Date  March 10, 2006 11:21 AM
8) A COMMENT BY Michelle:

I think the bible has pretty much everything you need to know about this subject.

Luke 12
22 He said to his disciples, ‘Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. 23For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? 26If then you are not able to do so small a thing as that, why do you worry about the rest? 27Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. 28But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29And do not keep striving for what you are to eat and what you are to drink, and do not keep worrying. 30For it is the nations of the world that strive after all these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31Instead, strive for his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 ‘Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions, and give alms. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 18
18 A certain ruler asked him, ‘Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ 19Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20You know the commandments: “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honour your father and mother.” ’ 21He replied, ‘I have kept all these since my youth.’ 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ 23But when he heard this, he became sad; for he was very rich. 24Jesus looked at him and said, ‘How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.’

Date  March 22, 2006 7:25 PM
9) A COMMENT BY Ron Gleason:

Dear Alex,
How would you know how little--or much--I know? Is it simply that I disagree with you? Just for the record, the amount of money wasted in Africa is not an uniformed generalization, but facts. As John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things." Having said that, I do not want to give the impression that I am not prepared and willing to help the poor. It is my intention, however, that what the Church does actually constitutes help. In the past, we have merely thrown money at the problems. Liberal theologians and politicians have been complicitous in the waste.
This does not mean that good is not being done. I have worked with underprivileged kids and with homosexuals dying from AIDS.
Yes, Alex, pastors should be concerned about that. The Church should remain the voice of biblical truth in a fallen world.
Ken, it tears at my heart to see a child in a cardboard box as a shelter. The same is true of a child born with AIDS or with a cocaine addiction. Should the Church have something to say and be willing to do something about this? Absolutely. But you cannot force parents to act responsibly. Help must be real help as much as possible.
Michelle, you are correct that the Bible has the answers we need, but it will not do merely to quote from a few select texts. We must be prepared to decide what the Bible says about the poor, welfare, etc. from both the Old and New Testaments--and there is a lot there. It is more than instructive to see how the Israelites, for example, taught people to manage the welfare "tithe" over a period of time. Some welfare was paid once every 3.5 years. Interesting.
Anyway, it's a necessary discussion to see how as Christians we apply the biblical ethic socially in our culture.
Rattlesnake 6

Reader  Ron Gleason
Date  March 26, 2006 12:41 AM
10) A COMMENT BY Michelle:

Ron,

Jesus was very clear about some things. He was pretty darned clear about what he thought about wealth and economic justice. One of the things that has been honestly frustrating to me is that Christians have taken the most important things, like Jesus' approaches to economic and social justice and nonviolence, which are written all over the Gospels, and made them much less important (sometimes, made them completely invisible) than issues that are far from clearly defined in the bible.

You and I will likely never agree with each other on this, but as someone who takes the Bible very seriously (but, honestly, not literally - which for you, I imagine, stops the conversation) it greatly saddens me to see Jesus' message of economic justice ignored or twisted so that people can justify lifestyles that are very comfortable, but far from biblical, and justify letting the poor stay that way. It is true that over history, there have always been the rich and the poor. But this is the first moment in history that on this planet, we have more than we need for all of us to live and survive in a healty way. And the fact that people go hungry, or homeless, or without health care is not lack of resources, but lack of will. Jesus looks at this, and weeps.

Date  March 26, 2006 6:42 PM
11) A COMMENT BY Ron Gleason:

Dear Michelle,
I am interested in your take on what the Bible teaches on economic & social justice. Socialism? Jim Wallis? Also, in light of the Holy Wars in the OT, why do you believe that that the NT (Jesus) was in favor of non-violence. Might be a fun exchange.
Rattlesnake 6

Reader  Ron Gleason
Date  March 27, 2006 3:50 PM
12) A COMMENT BY Michelle:

Hi Ron,

I'm glad you think this exchange is fun. I'm enjoying it. It's been my feeling that we need to be able to be in genuine dialogue with other Christians, of all ranges of theology, from fundamentalist through liberal.

In terms of nonviolence, I think I've learned the most about what the Christian view of nonviolence from the peace traditions (Amish, Mennonites, Quakerism, the Brethren) and the Bruderhof communities. Many (most?) segments of those communities/denominations are quite orthodox theologically in ways that I am not, but they all are very grounded in the idea that nonviolence was a central message of Jesus.

It is, for sure, a very interesting question, in terms of the relationship of violence in the Hebrew Bible vs. New Testament. Since I don't take the Bible literally, and pay attention to biblical scholarship on issues relating to the historicity of events portrayed in the Bible, for me, since, for example, most Biblical scholars portray Joshua as fictional (lack of archelological evidence, primarily) I see Joshua more as a metaphor about the kinds of reactions and desires we have because of oppression, as well as, frankly, expressions of some of the darker sides of human nature.

But I think even a literal interpretation of the Bible would still support a view of nonviolence, since Christ is the new covanent.

That Jesus, and the pre-Constantine church, were in favor of non-violence seems pretty clear, to my mind. There are the obvious things, such as quoting from Torah about not doing to others what you don't want people to do to you (I think violence falls into this category,) Jesus' adminitions to love the enemy, turn the other cheek, etc. It is true that there are moments, particularly within parables, where Jesus seems not to be promoting nonviolence (like the parable of the bad tenants, where they eventually are destroyed.) But I'm not clear that that takes away from Jesus' basic message of nonviolence. And what could be more clear than the way Jesus died?

I think in terms of economic justice, one does not necessarily have to invoke socialism, and I don't necessarily think Jesus was a socialist (although some might argue that.) I think that there are two parts of this thread - one - where Jesus is very clear about what it takes to enter the Kingdom of God. It's about feeding the hungry, etc. Look at the parable of the good Samaritan - it would be hard to find a more radical and inclusive parable. Samaritans were thought of, at the time, as unclean, untrustworthy, etc. Loving one's neighbor (that is, everyone) as you love yourself is key here. What does that mean exactly? Well, you would want everyone to have the opportunities for good living that you have. You'd want everyone to have a roof over their head like you do. Enough food like you do. A good education like you had. You get the picture. Even Paul gets into the act. In Romans 12:9-20, Paul lays out the marks of being a Christian. Up there on that list is "associate with the lowly," and "if your enemies are hungry, feed them..." (There are also references to nonviolence in that passage.)

The second thread is, I think, basically about materialism. One cannot worship both God and money. The comment in Luke about how difficult it is to be rich, and enter the Kingdom of God. I don't think that these things are just to say that rich people are bad people. I think it's to say that a focus on material comfort (I borrow heavily from the peace traditions, here, too) takes away from ones focus on God.

And here's where my own experience comes in. (I like the Weslyan quadralateral - scripture, experience, tradition and rationality.) First, when it comes down to it, all I really care about is being deeply in touch with God. All I really want to do is, as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians, "pray without ceasing." And the more I travel on my path with God, the more I understand how much love God has for all of us in this world, and how much love we have, and can give, to everyone, and how much we limit that love by focusing on ourselves first, or deciding that somehow, some people don't deserve it.

Date  March 28, 2006 8:41 PM
13) A COMMENT BY Ron Gleason:

Michelle,
John Wesley would be displeased with you for being a liberal! Shame! Shame! Shame! I don't mind the quadralateral as long as Scripture is its only interpreter and takes precedence over everything else in the quad. If it doesn't, then the quad is of little or no value. Experience, for example, must conform to Scripture as must tradition and rationality.
I agree that materialism is bad, but material possession are not. I am also not certain that your information about Christians prior to Constantine is entirely correct.
In the NT neither John the Baptizer (he really wasn't a Baptist. He drank), nor Jesus, nor the other NT writers ever told the soldiers that they should get out of the military. Since I'm writing a book on Just War and preparing an Ethics class for a seminary I would welcome a discussion about pacifism a la Mennonites, etc. If you are interested in reading some of what I've already written on the subject, contact me at my email: bavinck@socal.rr.com and I'll send it on to you.
Rattlesnake 6

Reader  Ron Gleason
Date  March 29, 2006 3:47 PM

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