Who Is Leading You Astray?

By the way, I am not an ordained pastor, although I am "in leadership" at a church.

Jeremy's post reminds me of a thorny, difficult issue that I am only lately grasping the significance of in the Body of Christ. And that is, that many believers, steeped and saturated in post-modern ways of thinking, are not grasping that there is a way (and a command!) for us to know absolute Biblical truth, and to be able to speak that truth without having to worry that maybe we could be wrong. After all, we are commanded in Ephesians to "speak the truth in love..." How does Jeremy think we are going to be able to do that unless we are also able to know for sure what truth is? (Not to pick on you, Jeremy!) It sounds outrageous to our politically correct, post-modern sensitivities to think that we could be so bold as to say 'we know we are right on this one!', but when sound methods of study and research into Scripture are used, and when the searcher is looking for God's agenda and not his own, then the truth is easy to find. If a sincere Christian has intellectual difficulties with the fact of being able to say 'yes, we can and must know and speak absolute truth from God's Word', then it's time for some serious and honest study. It's not enough to "feel" as though you're right...what's at stake is too important.(2 Tim. 2:15...be diligent to present yourself approved to God... handling accurately the word of truth...) I'm thankful now for rhe time not long ago when my own attempt to oppose a crazy teaching at my church was met with disinterest and near hostility...because my subsequent reading took me to the Bible in a more humble way, to writings and histories of the early church, through all the councils of the early church as they met to resolve just such issues as we are facing today, to the times of reformation and return to Biblical truth (and accounts of the shed blood of those believers as they stood firm against the powerful church of Rome) all the way to great thinking Christians of our time who contended earnestly for the place of the Bible in the life of the church. (And to this website, as well)! Because this, I have become convinced, is where we are, and where the battle lies... that is, what place does Scripture have in our lives? We love Scripture, quote it, use it and mis-use it to make our point, as I did for years, but until we come to understand that we are actually to obey the commands of Jesus written in it, then we are missing it. And I could have even written that last sentence several years ago because that was what I thought I believed, but I was still missing it because I thought in post-modern terms and didn't even realize it. We need reformation in the church still, a return to the Word of God, and to "the old paths". Many of us need to learn how to think in honest and truthful and brave ways again, rather than in the insidiously deceptive politically correct and post-modern ways that have permeated our culture to such an extent that if we're under 60 years old or so, we are unlikely to recognize these false ways until we are taught how to. So let's not be ashamed that there is absolute truth and that it's knowable and doable by puny little creatures like us, for such was God's plan from the beginning. "Not to us, O Lord, but to Your Name bring glory".

Uncle Cleopas said:

Also, why is SaddleBack and WillowCreek so evil? Packaging the church differently for a changing culture without watering down the message sounds good to me.

I have no problem w/ chairs instead of pews, guitars instead of organs, shirtsleeves instead of suitcoat & tie, but diluted preaching and teaching starves my soul. They can call it 'one point preaching' (Warren) or 'seeker sensative sermons' (Hybels) or 'felt needs messages' (Sutherland), but no matter what the label is, it boils down to the same feel-good topics over and over and over and over again, to the point where my kids can fill in the little blanks on the sermon notes BEFORE the pastor begins preaching.

In response to Jeremy's second post (hi Jeremy!) where the question is "How is it that the parishoner has a handle on the absolute truth of the Bible, but the pastor doesn't? How does the parishoner know it is not the other way around, and the pastor is right and he is wrong?" I would go back to the point made that there is definitely a way to correctly interpret (divide) Scripture, the Word of Truth spoken of in 2 Timothy. And so there being a way to discern Scriptural truth, it follows that one can also most definitely discern Scriptural error. (We've gotta take off those post-modern shades!) I think the letter assumes that the disappointed parishioner has, indeed, been diligent to show himself approved to God in his handling of the Scripture and so he recognizes truth from error. His/her motives are assumed to be that he loves the truth and rejects "every false way". Hopefully, most pastors would respond with interest and humility if approached in the right spirit with a concern such as this. Then all would benefit and learn more about God's ways.

Hey Jeremy, I went back and read that dratted letter again and thought "hmmm... what seems to trouble Jeremy the most is how could a layman (with, prettily obviously, not a high level of formal education)approach his seminary-trained pastor with the attitude that he has discerned Biblical truth better than his pastor? I can see where you might get the idea of a lack of humility on the part of the layman. But I think it needs to be understood that this letter is a kind of preaching-to-the-choir letter. By that I mean, it is published on a website that is probably mostly read by like-minded people who are very familiar with the concerns that the parishioner approached his pastor with...the church growth movement (i.e. Saddleback and Willow Ridge methods), pop psychology (M. Scott Peck etc.), and the revival movement that embraces the likes of the Kansas City prophets, Brownsville and such. If you haven't read much in these areas, you may not understand that the error in these movements is commonly acknowledged by reformed-minded and theologically orthodox believers, and that wherever aspects of these movements are embraced in a local church, deception is already underway. So the layman was not trying to argue subtleties of Biblical interpretation, but was recognizing some rather obvious departures from orthodox understanding of Scripture. What the layman lacks in grammatical correctness! he apparently makes up for by his simple love for and recognition of truth. I do believe that there is great value in formal training. But pastors are human, and no matter how much one knows about the Bible, we are all susceptible to missing the mark sometimes. I am curious about what type of model your church is based on, but it would be nosey of me to ask! Anyway, God bless you for your leadership there and it's fun to talk to you about these things. I hope I don't come off as preachy or know-it-all, because none of us have anywhere near all the answers. In this particular area of thought, however, I have some experience, many failures and hopefully, a little wisdom gained. Along with the gray hairs to prove it!

Jeremy, I sympathize with you for the lack of respect for your pastors and teachers. That is definitely unscriptural! While at my church, few would be so bold as to speak up if they did know that something being taught is actually wrong. All could be solved if all could agree on the perspicuity of the Bible! That is a new word I just learned tonight and I'm going to make you look it up like I did. I don't come from a reformed background either, but when I began to search for good, solid Biblical teaching, I found that those of reformed thinking were the ones that had it, and they come in many denominational flavors...it just means that they, like the reformers of the past, hold a very high view of Scripture, and therefore employ very careful and orthodox methods of interpretation. So, read, Jeremy! I'm sure Tim could suggest some good reformed-type reading material.