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Mom Shovels the Drive
- 03/02/09
- 51
Mom always shovels the driveway. It’s a phenomenon I’ve noticed time and again. We live in a neighborhood that has a lot of single moms. I suppose the statistics dictate that most neighborhoods have more than their fair share of single moms. But ours seems to have an unusual amount. I think it is related to the housing prices here. We live in (quite literally) the most affordable housing in town. It is one of the very few neighborhoods in the area where a single income can support a mortgage. It is one of the few neighborhoods that is nice, that is safe and where the homes are small enough to be affordable. And so we have many young couples, many elderly couples, and many single parents. The single moms may have one child, they may have two or three. In most cases the children are teenagers, in their twenties or even in their early thirties. In almost every case there is at least one boy thirteen or older who is able-bodied. Yet in almost every case, mom is the one who shovels the driveway.
I remember being a rebellious, listless teenager. I remember how little I wanted to do much of anything for anyone else. I remember our elderly next-door neighbor had a heart attack and was unable to do any strenuous labor. We had a good snowfall one day and I was enjoying the day from the refuge of my bedroom in the basement, lying across my bed reading a book and listening to some music. My father came down and told me in no uncertain terms that I was to go upstairs, get my winter gear on and get outside to shovel the neighbor’s driveway. He gave me a figurative (and perhaps literal—my memory is a little hazy) kick in the rear-end and sent me on my way. I went outside and there was my neighbor’s wife, shoveling the drive. I pitched in and soon had it cleared. The lesson has stuck.
Dad had high expectations of me, but reasonable, biblical ones. He wanted me to be proactive in service to others; he wanted me to be looking for opportunities to serve and for opportunities to serve as a man serves; he wanted me to use my (growing) strength to serve other people.
I have a boy of my own now and I can see that some of what was in me is in him. He is a good kid, a kind soul. Yet he is sometimes as reluctant to serve as I was when I was young. I am seeking to teach him that he is to use his strength, his ability to serve others and especially to serve those who are weaker or less able than he is. It will not be long before my son is stronger than my wife. Already when they goof around together I can see that she does not have a whole lot on him. What becomes of a mom when she has children who are bigger than she is, stronger than she is, and yet with so little maturity, so little restraint? What happens when there is no one to mentor the boy, to teach him that his strength must be used to serve others?
This is a lesson a father needs to pass to his son. It’s a lesson that no one has taught to so many of the boys who live around me. A few weeks ago I saw a mother struggling with a load of groceries while her boys pushed past one another and past her to get into the house. I stopped them and told them to get back to the car to help their mother. They looked at me blankly and walked into their house, mumbling an excuse. Mom struggled down the walkway she had shoveled with the groceries she was forced to carry. Dad is long gone. There is no one to give these boys the good, swift kick to the posterior that would get them acting like men.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
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Comments (51)
Thank you so much for this post. My mother raised me as a single mom and I remember every person that came into her life to help her, witness to her, and be a light to us. She worked for a Christian family that rented us a home for a very low price and they invited us to church and they invited me to church camp for many years, planting seeds in me that eventually led to salvation.
I am so grateful to those people, and pray that you, your family and your readers will continue or think about reaching out to single moms.
I’ve noticed many moms lately who are not single but their husbands are absent due to the economy and traveling for work or because they are in the military. So we need to remember those moms, too! I am always at a loss at what to do for these moms, however, because we don’t have much money. But acts of service go a long way. Maybe you could post some ideas of what to do for these single moms (shovel their driveway, offer babysitting, etc.).
Thank you so much for this post!
I have a neighbor who is an able bodied man, who refuses to shovel, mow or clean out his gutters. He instead makes his wife and her daughter take care of it. Several times, him and his son have sat out on the patio drinking coke while they watched his wife and her daughter take care of the lawn. I have taught my three boys to go and assist whenever they see this happening in hopes that this man’s boy will see the error of his and dad’s ways and by peer pressure help his step mom.I have had long talks with my boys and have told them that if they EVER treat a woman like this that they will incur my wrath.Now I know some may say that I shouldn’t use my neighbor as an example for what my kids shouldn’t be. But this total lack of chivalry in our society needs to be fought.
Tim - I’m a new reader and really enjoyed this post, mainly because it reminded me of my own father. I think my parents did a great thing for my brother and I in keeping us in Boy Scouts where we learned to work for ourselves and serve others. Getting disciplined by another boy’s father was not uncommon either.
There are so many kids who don’t know what a ‘good turn’ even is. They expect to be paid for anything they do, as if they’ve paid for everything that is done for them.
Great post. I look forward to reading more.
Hi Tim… Just sent your letter to our High School Ministry, to share with the teens. (boys & girls) Also, a Christain man, that sees that my grandson (single mom) has good values and is a wonderful example. Thanked him for that, and that he was a blessings to my heart. Thanks for sharing. I hope many will read this, and share.Blessings… :)
This breaks my heart, because one of my dearest friends is a single mom in this situation. Her 18- year- old son does very little to help her out, and she doesn’t see that he is doing anything wrong. His dad is involved in his life occasionally, but is not the kind of man to teach him to respect his mother and other women. Does anyone have ideas of what can be done in a situation like this? How can a single mom teach her son to be respectful when there isn’t a man taking the lead?
Good post. I’m the man I am today because my dad gave me several swift kicks in the posterior.
The only suggestion I can offer for single women with boys is that they meet with their pastor and elders and share their situation. Ask them for their suggested male role models in the church, and have them be an intermediary for you. That way, you don’t come across as being “too forward” as a single woman to these role model men. And in some cases, these “Men” may be older teenagers who have their heads screwed on right.
“The only way boys learn lifelong lessons is through pain.”
An old African proverb
What is equally sad to me is that there are so many families in which there are fathers in the home, and the children are still not being taught to respect and appreciate their mothers and/or parents. I think the parents think they are doing their children a favor by not insisting on respect and help around the home. I’m glad to read about how you’re instilling that in your children, and I’m grateful that my parents had the sense and love to discipline me and set expectations for how I treated others.
AMC - I’m with Zach. We have the community of believers for just this reason. If the father is absent, there are mature men that should be able to come alongside and encourage these young men in righteousness. Go to your elders and respectfully ask that they look into coming alongside.
Great post, Tim. My dad was not (and is not) a believer, but he certainly understood that he needed to let me know (as you put it, in no uncertain terms) that shoveling, lawn mowing, grocery carrying, etc., were my responsibility, not Mom’s.
Tim, you must think women are completely weak and utterly helpless. How male. How chauvinistic. And how outdated - don’t you realize the feminist movement of the last 50 years has proven that women can do anything men can do? And should!?
Or… maybe, just maybe, that’s a big part of the problem, too. The men aren’t there to teach boys how to behave like men should toward others, and women (at least, “modern” women) act like they don’t want them to.
Thanks for writing truth.
We had an acquaintance in for the weekend. She left early Friday morning, but I had already gone to work.
My wife informed me that without being asked, my 14-year-old son went to our guest and offered to take her luggage to the car…
Smile…
When my best friend and I were kids we used the winters to cash out the neighborhood shoveling driveways. In the summers we were lifeguards, so driveway shoveling became our supplemental income in the winter months, which worked out well in lower PA. We set up a subscription plan, had our route set, and would call our customers the night before to verify. Most people only contracted us for over two inches of snow on the NWS for our area. After the first year, my dad challenged us to think of a way that our business could somehow also serve the community at large (meaning, single mom’s - widows - the elderly - and people unable to clear the snow themselves). We decided that for our regular subscribers, we offerred them the opportunity to up their rate from 5 dollars a snowfall to 8. With the extra donation, we would clear the driveway of a neighbor who was unable to do so. We had a lot of fun with it as kids, managing our business and using our business to help care for the community. Although it wasn’t quite as self-sacrificing as what you’re describing; it taught me a great lesson in starting my own business after college - to be continually serving the community and using the blessings of our regular customers to help those who need help. Thanks for the post!
Tim,
My seminary prof just this morning lamented the lack of a prophetic voice in churches today. Thank you for being a prophet.
My younger brother was five at the time my parents divorced and he’s grown up without a father-figure. Its been such a blessing to see my husband take up the role as best as he can. I’m so glad that my brother now has a godly man to instruct him and guide him in the right way.
love your posts!!! love the lessons….
that’s all….
Perhaps, the next time you see the scenario played out at your neighbors, instead of speaking to the boys you should cut a good size switch, grab a bag of groceries out of the woman’s hands, hand her the switch and then say, “I’ll wait here with the groceries while you go fetch your boys.”
They didn’t listen to you!? Wow, I’m surprised, but then again, if they won’t help their mom…
I have GIRLS and they have to carry in the groceries!
On another note: my best friend was a single mom of two boys for about 5 years. I’ve never seen such an amazing thing. She was able to instill in them the importance of honoring women. They are now 12 and 9 and they are truly on their way to being great men. They have had a step dad for about 4 years now, and with him, they will be even greater!
I pray more men stay and if they don’t that others will step in and raise up a new generation!
Awesome post…thank you! An additional challenge is that some of the “men” in our midst don’t know what it means to be men either. We need to spend time reaching out and teaching fathers AND sons to love their wives like Christ loved His Church!
Tim,There is only one thing wrong with your post! These young men are not reading it!I have raised 5 young men and have 3 more comming up and have found this to be a challenge with all of them. We men are just a little on the lazy side at that stage and without a dad to give a swift kick now and again we just don’t seem to ever figure it out. Young men need old men to be men of action (i.e. the swift kick) in order for it to make sense. We don’t seem to learn the easy way very often. Must have something to do with these sin scarred tents we live in called the ‘flesh’.Thanks again for the encouragement.
Good word. I would commend “Future Men,” by Douglas Wilson, on this topic.
Tim,My wife and I moved to Charlotte, NC about a month ago and we live in the neighborhood that sounds like it is one more affordable than the one you are in, or pretty close to it. We are the young couple with young kids in the neighborhood. We have not met everyone in the neighborhood yet, but in our time here we have seen so many single mothers with young kids and a couple seniors. In fact, in the month we have lived here we haven’t noticed even one of our neighbors that seemed to have a husband and wife family living there. You are too right about neighborhoods having more than their fair share of single moms.
It always bugs me a little when folks describe situations like this, then attribute them to the absence of a father. Honestly, are mothers incapable of exercising discipline?
I find myself almost agreeing with Ben’s sarcastic first paragraph in post #11. Not with the implied meaning but the literal one. Can women do anything men can do? No. But this is not one of those cases. In the absence of a father, a woman can and should teach her sons how to be considerate of others.
As a single mom to one son and one daughter, I understand the importance of having a strong, loving father in the home. However, as JPH mentioned, a single mom still has the responsibility to raise her children with godly values…. regardless of the circumstances. I have seen young men in two parent homes that are just as inconsiderate as the ones you describe in your neighborhood.With single moms, you do need to take into consideration the burden placed upon them (whether by choice or not). I think it’s easy for a mom with young children to slide on discipline - because she is so overwhelmed with other things. She does not realize the great mistake she is making (because it seems like such a small deal at the time) until it is too late and the children are bigger than she is.I encourage all of your readers to reach out to the single moms in their churches, and in their neighborhoods. I think (by experience) that single moms are often overlooked within the church. Just an invitation to dinner at your home (one less meal to cook), help with a youth group pine derby car, help fixing small things around her home, watching her kids so she can attend a bible study… these things may seem so small… but they help relieve some of the burden she carries day in and day out.
Good stuff here. I second the plug for Doug Wilson’s book “Future Men.”
Thanks Tim,An excellent reminder! Oh, how our young men (including me and my three boys) need to hear this.
Maybe it’s just safer to do it yourself?
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/stamford.shovels.snow.2.949119.html
Great post, I always enjoy them!
My dad had a fairly simple method for dealing with this, I didn’t get fed as long as there was snow on the drive or walk. I carried that over with my son - no nagging, no drama.
It actually is appalling how many of my generation need a swift kick in the posterior, or I should say it’s appalling how many aren’t getting one.
I was raised with these hard lessons in the country with no snow blower. God has blessed me with parents who teach their kids.
Hopefully you take some encouragement that not all of the teens of 2009 are lazy. ;D
This is getting off topic, but I felt like I should remark on krm’s #28.
Remembering from my own childhood, I probably would have taken an ultimatum like that as a challenge, and tried to circumvent it. No food if I don’t shovel the drive? Okay. I’ll use some of my own cash and go buy some fast food. Or I’ll go over to a friend’s house and get something there. Control me, will you! (You get the idea).
Really, kids should do something simply because you asked them, and because they love you and don’t want you to be disappointed in or angry at them. Sure you have to have punishments when they disobey. But “fear of consequences” will only get you so far. When those consequences become unenforceable, they lose their ability to compel behavior. There MUST be some other motivation for your kids to obey you, or they’ll stop obeying you as soon as they feel like they can “get away with it”.
Someone needs to paddle mom as well - allowing children to be rude to adults is just another form of child abuse..they are being set up for failure in the future as they will not know how to communicate effectively - and without respect for others they will find themselves running amuk in the real world.Getting help from the elders or deacons at church to arrange for mentors is great advice, for sons AND for daughters.
“My dad had a fairly simple method for dealing with this, I didn’t get fed as long as there was snow on the drive or walk.”
That’s the biblical way. Yes, a child mighty take it as a challenge, and might have to go further down the road of rebellion before being brought to repentance, but God has ordained means as well as ends. There’s no need—or authorization—for trying to out-psychologize God.
However, if we want to be pragmatic about it, I have used the biblical method quite effectively many times. Yes, children rebel against discipline, and I have seen that, too (who hasn’t?). That’s no reason not do use it. We do what God has instructed us to do, and trust him for the outcome. Caveat: that outcome isn’t always what we wish for. God often glorifies himself in severe ways.
I would acknowledge that if our discipline goes no further than laying down the law and cracking down on offenders, that is not biblical discipline, and is doomed—unless God graciously intervenes—to fail.
My point is that that’s a stupid way to exercise discipline, nor do I find it explicitly “biblical”.
You’re basically threatening the kid up front. “Do this or else”. It should be “Do this”. Then, if the kid doesn’t, you follow up by attaching consequences.
And hopefully consequences that can actually be enforced. The thing about “Do this or you don’t eat” is that it carries with it the implication that the person making the threat actually has the ~means~ to prevent the kid from eating. In fact, he does not., depending on the child’s age. So it’s essentially a hollow threat. If I’m the person being threatened, the fact that its’ a hollow threat makes me that much more likely to rebel, if only to expose the threat-maker’s inability to back it up.
“My point is that that’s a stupid way to exercise discipline, nor do I find it explicitly ‘biblical’.”
“For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.” —2 Thessalonians 3:10
I refer to my previous comment: God said it. I’m not smarter than God.
Explain to me how 2 Thes. 3 is a guide book for disciplining one’s children, instead of instructions for how believers are to treat those in the body who are “idle”.
If you want to use that passage as your guide to discipline, then you should disassociate from your own child:
“Now we command you, brothers, sin the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, tthat you keep away from any ubrother vwho is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.”
“If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and fhave nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.”
2 Thessalonians 3 is not “a guide book for disciplining children.” That does not mean the principles it contains are not applicable. The passage clearly correlates eating with work. It is my job to teach that to my children. I do so not only by saying it, but by demonstrating it. We—parents, teachers, etc.—do this all the time in other ways: “You can’t do this until you do that.” “You won’t get this unless you do that.”
You wrote earlier,The thing about “Do this or you don’t eat” is that it carries with it the implication that the person making the threat actually has the ~means~ to prevent the kid from eating. In fact, he does not., depending on the child’s age. So it’s essentially a hollow threat. If I’m the person being threatened, the fact that its’ a hollow threat makes me that much more likely to rebel, if only to expose the threat-maker’s inability to back it up.
I’m curious: if it is “stupid” to require work for food in a family context because (you incorrectly assert) it can’t be enforced, isn’t it even more stupid among adults in the church who have no actual power over one another? How does one church member—or the whole body, even—prevent another from eating? They can’t. They can only refuse to be the source of food.
I’m curious: if it is “stupid” to require work for food in a family context because (you incorrectly assert) it can’t be enforced, isn’t it even more stupid among adults in the church who have no actual power over one another? How does one church member—or the whole body, even—prevent another from eating? They can’t. They can only refuse to be the source of food.
Those last two sentences say it all. The audience of the passage aren’t in a position of authority over the idle brothers, so denying them food isn’t a punishment per se. It’s just a refusal to enable them to continue being idle. As such it doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the disciplining of children.
In the case of a child you, as a parent, have both a legal and biblical obligation to provide care, part of which includes food. So if we’re talking about a younger child who probably doesn’t have the means to go out and buy food on his own, then the threat is basically, “I’m going to starve you if you don’t do what I say.” To which a sufficiently self-aware younger child might respond, “I’m going to report you to CPS and get myself and my siblings removed from your home.”
In the case of an older child who has the means to get his own food the threat becomes fairly meaningless. It’s more of an inconvenience than a punishment. The child might think, “Oh, so providing my own food is all I have to do to get out of doing anything you say? I can live with that.” Or, since he or she is presumably still living in your house, he could just steal food without your permission. Are you going to put a pad lock on your fridge?
Either way, you’ll eventually have to up the ante to the point of kicking the kid out of the house since, short of putting him in handcuffs, that’s about the only thing that’s totally under your control.
“To which a sufficiently self-aware younger child might respond, ‘I’m going to report you to CPS and get myself and my siblings removed from your home.’”
Well, now you’ve opened another can of worms.
If that’s the situation, if there is a child that actually wants to be removed to foster care, then there is a problem that goes much deeper and started long ago. It means the parents haven’t been instructing and disciplining properly up to that point, and now they’re just desperately reaching. Parents can’t behave unbiblically towards their children as a rule, and then think suddenly cracking down will fix the problem they’ve created. The propriety and effectiveness of discipline—in the church or in the home—assumes the motivation of love. Parents who don’t discipline their children don’t love them, and their children know it. They will not respond positively to any discipline until that love relationship is established. That may require the parents to confess sin and seek forgiveness from the child for their lack of love. It will definitely require time, patience, prayer, and above all, grace.
Exactly. In the example with shoveling the driveway, if the kid flat out refuses to do what you ask, then most likely there’s already a deeper problem, and threatening him with withdrawing food is just going to backfire. Or even if it doesn’t, you’ve only succeed in coercing behavior through force. There’s no real obedience on the part of the child; he’s as rebellious as ever, but has decided to bend to your will purely out of self-interest.
Once kids hit a certain age, you really can’t exercise parental authority unless the kid decides to submit to that authority. The decision to submit hinges on the child’s love and respect for the parent. If that love and respect isn’t there, then that’s what needs to be addressed first.
Yes, but you don’t establish a relationship of love and respect and then begin disciplining. Discipline is part of establishing that relationship. From the earliest possible age, my kids have been taught that first we do the work, then we get to eat (or play, or go out, etc.). They may grumble, and sometimes get angry, as any sinner might, but they learn the lesson. And shockingly, none have tried to leave home because of it.
See, you’re trying to apply the extreme situation—negligent parents suddenly cracking down on unloved, untrained kids—to all situations, and saying “that won’t work.” It’s a proper part of their training, and it does work. I’ve witnessed it in many families, including my own (which is far from perfect).
I understand that discipline is part of that loving relationship. I’m not disputing that, or saying the “loving relationship” should magically appear before discipline arrives.
I’m saying that in the specific example we were given, in the absence of any other information, threatening to withhold food is probably a bad idea.
That is to say, an older child who just flat out refuses to do what you’ve asked. Rather than try to ratchet up the punishment until the child does what you want, a parent in that situation should probably initiate a frank discussion with the child about why he/she has decided to completely ignore the parent’s wishes.
I’d also generally suggest that it is helpful for parents of older kids to be upfront about the fact that a child’s obedience is pretty much going to have to be voluntary, since the parent is no longer in a position to compel behavior. If the relationship is a good one, then the child will be strongly motivated to honor the parent’s wishes because he loves them, doesn’t want to disappoint them, and (possibly) out of obedience to God.
Instead, many parents act as if they are in a position of complete control when, in fact, they are not.
“That is to say, an older child who just flat out refuses to do what you’ve asked. Rather than try to ratchet up the punishment until the child does what you want, a parent in that situation should probably initiate a frank discussion with the child about why he/she has decided to completely ignore the parent’s wishes.”
That’s where the breakdown in this logic occurs for me. What do you do when the child does not respond to your frank discussion? Schedule future frank discussions? Continue until they move out?
If you’re deciding ahead of time that you cannot “control” the child, what options do you have from a position of authority? Do you even consider yourself to be in a position of authority over a person you have no control over?
I’m using the word “authority” to imply a status that exists regardless of whether the person “with authority” actually has the ability to compel behavior.
All parents are in a God-given position of authority over their children regardless of whether either party realizes it.
Where I make a distinction is between “authority” and “ability to compel behavior”. With older children, you pretty much lack the ability to compel behavior. About the only thing you can ultimately do is abandon the child. Either kick him/her out of the house or put him/her up for adoption. A common example would be a single mother whose male children get to be bigger and stronger than she is. How is she going to compel behavior, other than by threatening to stop supporting them (i.e. kick them out of the house or put them up for adoption)?
When you consider that children over a certain age can employ the use of weapons, the above example doesn’t require that the “parents” be “a single mother”. Say you to administer corporal punishment to your 13 year-old and he pulls a knife on you, saying, “You can try to spank me, but I’m warning you I’m going to defend myself.”
Rarely does it ever progress to that point, but it highlights the fact that “obedience” by older children must spring out of their desire not to hurt/disappoint/etc. the parents. That is to say, it must be voluntary, not forced. Forced behavior isn’t really “obedience” anyway. It’s coercion.
I was a geographic single mom last year while my husband was deployed to the Middle East. I was living in a mountain town in Colorado and experienced a record snowfall during my year living there. Constant storms dumped 3 feet at a time about once a week for two months. When it was time for me to move, there was 7 feet of snow in my driveway and 4 feet on the roof. The moving truck couldn’t even get down my street. What surprised me was that each time it snowed, I would see my neighbors clearing their driveways with a snowblower. But neither of these older men ever offered to clear mine. So with my 3 year old safely parked in front of the TV, I would spend hours clearing my north facing downward sloping driveway so I could get my minivan to the grocery store for milk. The sad thing is that my mom still lives on that street. She’s been widowed for 15 years and none of her neighbors offer to clear her driveway either. So long chivalry.
Rarely does it ever progress to that point, but it highlights the fact that “obedience” by older children must spring out of their desire not to hurt/disappoint/etc. the parents. That is to say, it must be voluntary, not forced. Forced behavior isn’t really “obedience” anyway. It’s coercion.
Using that logic I don’t see how any sort of discipline can ever be employed. The child who is willing to use a knife against a parent could also claim sexual abuse and therefore does not need the physical ability to overcome the parent.
It is akin to pointing out that once a criminal is sufficiently armed he/she can overcome a police officer and concluding that police officers should not use force but should use frank discussion to convince criminals to voluntarily obey out of their desire not to hurt/disappoint the police.
While it would be ideal if every person of every age would voluntarily submit to authority, this is unfortunately not the way it works. At some point in life every person needs to learn to submit to authority, and if necessary they must learn it by force. Frank discussion cannot be the only tool in the toolbox.
“Using that logic I don’t see how any sort of discipline can ever be employed.”
Discipline happens because most children love and respect their parents at some level and don’t want to harm or disappoint them. My point was just that parents shouldn’t act as if they’re in a position of complete control. While they are in a position of authority, they don’t actually possess the means to compel any behavior they want.
“It is akin to pointing out that once a criminal is sufficiently armed he/she can overcome a police officer and concluding that police officers should not use force but should use frank discussion to convince criminals to voluntarily obey out of their desire not to hurt/disappoint the police.”
If police offers were tasked with disciplining criminals like parents are tasked with disciplining children, then that analogy might work. In a situation like that, the police officer’s job is to remove a threat, using (potentially lethal) force if necessary. The goal is not to teach the criminal anything or train him up to be a certain way. The police officer and criminal are not in any sort of loving relationship.
“At some point in life every person needs to learn to submit to authority, and if necessary they must learn it by force.”
Being forced to do something doesn’t teach one to submit to authority. It only teaches that sometimes a person more powerful than you can make you do something you didn’t want to do. Now, in many situations this is an entirely appropriate way for a parent to act. If my three-year-old is about to run into traffic I’m not going to politely ask him to stop. Likewise if I put him in “time out” and he tries to leave, I’m going to physically carry him back to his room whether he likes it or not. I can do that because I’m bigger and stronger than him.
When he’s sixteen years old, I probably won’t be able to do that any more. So if I’m planning to still be disciplining him when he’s sixteen, there need’s to be a basis in place for him to actually submit to my discipline, despite having the means to do otherwise.
I don’t expect that he’ll perfectly submit to my authority. That is to say, he will likely do some things I’ve asked him not to do, or not do things I’ve asked him to do. But hopefully our relationship will be such that he’ll at least submit to my discipline when it comes to that.
When I mentioned having a frank discussion, that wasn’t meant to be discipline in and of itself. I was envisioning a discussion in which the parent and child talk about what their relationship really is. Sort of a, “Do you love me? Feed my sheep” type of talk. Basically tell the child that if he loves you, and wants to be in a parent/child relationship with you, living in your house, that he’s going to have to respect your authority. If he balks at that, see if he can articulate why, and maybe discuss why a child might ever obey his parents in the first place.
The fact that such a discussion is even necessary indicates something has already gone terribly wrong in the relationship. Ratcheting up the level of punishment might get you the behavior you want, but it does nothing to repair the deeper relationship issue.
Being forced to do something doesn’t teach one to submit to authority. It only teaches that sometimes a person more powerful than you can make you do something you didn’t want to do.
Knowing someone can make you do something you don’t want to do is an excellent motivator to submit to authority. That is why you will physically put your 3-year-old back in his room. His willingness to leave the room after being told to stay there is not an indication of anything being wrong with the relationship other than sin which cannot be removed by the parent or the child. It is simply a behavior that needs correction, and that correction can be learned through the use of force when necessary.
When I take the trash out for my wife it is not done because she can physically make me do so, it is done because I love her.
When I obey the traffic laws in my city it is not done because I love the laws or the police, it is because the police can overpower me and make me do something I don’t want to do.
When I choose not to abuse my wife, it is done both out of love for my wife and because the police will force me to do otherwise.
The use of force and love are both tools to change one’s behavior. To stop using one when you’ve lost the upper hand physically is to limit your ability to raise your child.
“Knowing someone can make you do something you don’t want to do is an excellent motivator to submit to authority.”
Really? To me, it represents an excellent motivator to increase one’s own “power’ such that the other party can no longer exert control. In the context of parenting, the child’s motivation would be to equip myself to defend against the controlling parent, or to leave the home as soon as humanly possible.
If obedience is chiefly motivated by fear of consequences, then the obedience will cease as soon as the consequences are no longer in force. If your child is only abstaining from having sex because he fears your punishment, then that abstention will likely cease as soon as he leaves the home. Etc.
“The use of force and love are both tools to change one’s behavior. To stop using one when you’ve lost the upper hand physically is to limit your ability to raise your child.”
How are you going to “use force” as a method of discipline when you’ve lost the upper hand physically? I mean, describe to me how that happens. You say, “Go to your room and stay there for an hour to think on what you did.” Child says, “No.” Child is bigger and stronger than you. What are you going to do?
It’s not a matter of you choosing to stop. It’s a matter of you no longer being able to physically force the child to do things. When you can no longer exert complete control, there must necessarily be some level of cooperation on the part of the child in order for him to accept your discipline. If a child is rejecting the very idea that you can discipline him, then “more discipline” isn’t the answer.
Really? To me, it represents an excellent motivator to increase one’s own “power’ such that the other party can no longer exert control.
If that’s the case, why force your 3-year-old back into his room? Doesn’t that just inspire him to get stronger and rebel more?
It’s not a matter of you choosing to stop. It’s a matter of you no longer being able to physically force the child to do things.
It seems like you’re arguing two different points here. In one place you say that a child should not be forced into a behavior because it only makes them want to rebel more, yet in another place you condone the use of force up until the child is physically able to resist you. Even then, you plainly state that you do not stop using force by choice, but by necessity. Which is it?
If the use of force does not cause corrective behavior but only inspires further disobedience then it is the wrong tool to use at any age. However, if the use of force is effective at teaching that obedience is necessary even feelings are absent, then it should be used as many times as needed until the lesson is learned.
If that’s the case, why force your 3-year-old back into his room?
It’s twofold, I guess. One factor is the kid’s developmental level. I don’t think you’d disagree that a three year old is not capable of the level of self-control one might expect from an older child. The other factor is simply ability. If I’m able to “enforce” whatever discipline I lay down, then I’ll do so. But I’ll do so with the knowledge that there will soon come a day when I will not be able to. So that informs the way I treat my child, and the way I talk about discipline in general.t seems like you’re arguing two different points here. In one place you say that a child should not be forced into a behavior because it only makes them want to rebel more, yet in another place you condone the use of force up until the child is physically able to resist you. Even then, you plainly state that you do not stop using force by choice, but by necessity. Which is it?
The first was a direct response to your assertion of, “Knowing someone can make you do something you don’t want to do is an excellent motivator to submit to authority,” which I dispute. I did not mean to imply that you should never, ever force a child to do something when you happen to be physically capable of forcing them. I just don’t think it’s effective as a means of teaching them to willingly and enthusiastically submit to your authority. It may bring about a realization in the child that you are, in fact, in control, but that isn’t really a recognition of your authority, just your ability to control the situation.
As to the second, I don’t think I ever laid out a criteria like, “It’s okay to use force up until the child is physically able to resist you.” In mentioning physical resistance, I was justing pointing out that at some point the question of whether to “force” your child to do something becomes moot, since you are no longer capable of physically forcing him to do anything. It’s not a matter of “when do I force the child and when do I not force him”, it’s a matter of “when is it even possible to force him”.
If the use of force does not cause corrective behavior but only inspires further disobedience then it is the wrong tool to use at any age.
Agreed, the former implies the latter. However, if the use of force is effective at teaching that obedience is necessary even feelings are absent, then it should be used as many times as needed until the lesson is learned.
Agree and disagree. If the use of force is indeed effective at teaching that obedience is necessary “when feelings are absent”, then I would agree that it is a valuable tool. Such as putting my three-year-old back in his room when I’ve told him to stay there.
However, if there is some other tool that would engender the sort of relationship in which obedience would result without the need for physical coercion, then I would show preference to that tool. Furthermore, forcing a child to do something is only applicable to a certain point, after which it becomes impossible.