A La Carte (5/5)

While I have huge respect for couples that stick to "True lips wait", I would be very uneasy about it becoming an expected standard within a church/youth group. All that would do in many cases is lead to feelings of guilt and condemnation to the (many?) that failed, and once you'd "messed up" in that area, why hold back on anything else? This is the futility of law!

I think rules like this are a result of young people asking the question "how far can we go?". The only definitive answer you can give to this, is something like the above - don't even kiss! The actual boundaries will vary from couple to couple based on situation, sexual history, age etc... Giving definitive answers like this denies the fact that healthy relationships will (should) grow in intimacy over the period of courtship, whilst reserving sex for marriage. I just can't imagine going from no physical intimacy one day to the next day being married, and having no boundaries! The same goes for spending time alone together, if you have hardly spent any time alone together before marriage, how will you cope with a lifetime of it?!

I would prefer young people to be taught to use common sense when it comes to issues of dating, rather than laying down laws. Things like:- Don't start dating till you're at an age you could get married- Consider any potential date as a potential spouse (if not, what are you doing with them?!)- Take things slowly (both physically, and in terms of the amount of time you spend alone together).

Mounce's article ignores too important things - he wants to make a case that 1 Tim. 2:15 refers to women's salvation through childbearing - but he neglects to mention 1 Cor. 7 that clearly says it is no sin for women to not marry, as well as the very real issue of infertility for some women.

Hi CarolHaving re-read what I wrote, I don't think I was as clear as I intended to be. "It was done that way for thousands of years, no?"

Of course, but I for one am glad the bible does not prescribe the tradition of its time (arranged marriage) as the "right" way of approaching marriage. I believe it gives us the liberty to approach marriage in the way the majority of Christians in the western world do today.

"So if I have a “sexual history” it’s OK to push the limits even further?"

Actually, my point was the opposite. If you or your partner have a sexual history, that could be a reason to seriously hold back physically. "So, how much sexual arousal between couples would you say is acceptable? Where would YOU draw that line? Would the Bible agree?"

What does the bible actually prescribe in this area? If I'm not mistaken, it's largely silent on the issue. Unless you opt for the arranged marriage, meet on the day of the wedding policy, then I would suggest that anyone who hadn't found themselves sexually aroused by their prospective spouse either called off the wedding or visited their doctor!

As for where I would draw the line, the point I made in my previous post is that it's not appropriate to answer that question, unless you basically say do nothing - but the bible doesn't do that, so nor should we. Of course, on a case to case basis I would (and have) been more specific with people on boundaries (always erring on the cautious side) - but I would never make sweeping, extra-biblical relationship commandments.

Ann, if Paul could write I Tim 2:15 without saying all those other things at the same time, why can't Mounce? It's not ignoring everything else to deal with what the verse says, and leave it at that. Since nothing he did say actually conflicts with your concerns, I don't see what there is to object to.

The question is whether sexual intimacy between people who are unmarried equals sexual immorality. If the Bible's standard is that even looking at a woman with lust is sexual sin, I don't see how one can justify ANY sexual intimacy before marriage.

Think about this: I'm a married woman. It would be COMPLETELY unacceptable and inappropriate for me to be intimate (i.e. kissing, walking arm in arm as a couple, long embraces, caresses) with a man who is not my husband. Why? Is it just our cultural taboos? Would it be sinful for me to do so? If it's not OK to do those things AFTER I'm married, why is it OK to do them BEFORE I'm married? Why does the standard change? Should we not have the same standard of fidelity toward our (future) spouse that we do once we are married? Before I'm married, am I not someone's God-ordained spouse?

Carol Jean,

You seem to think that fidelity in marriage consists solely of avoiding fornication--that if something is inappropriate for a married person, it must be a matter of sexual sin.

That seems to be an inadequate view of the covenant of marriage.

It would be inappropriate for you to walk arm-in-arm with a man who is not your husband. It would be inappropriate for you to depend emotionally on a man who is not your husband, regularly talking for hours on the phone about your innermost struggles & joys. Do you assert that this is because it's sexual sin?

Also: You referred to Jesus' standard on lust & adultery, as the basis for saying that kissing must be reserved for marriage, too. Are you saying that the intimacy of kissing is inherently lustful? That when you kiss, you lust? (I know that kissing can very easily be lustful; I'm questioning that it inherently is.)

If kissing is not the same as lust, then you are wrongly applying Jesus' teaching. You cannot do in your heart what is wrong in practice; but you shouldn't assume that romantic intimacy is the same as lust.

However, I agree that we should be asking the question, "Was romantic intimacy made for singles, or for marriage?" And walking in humility and respect and holiness and honor will call us to a far higher standard in every aspect of our relationships than is practiced in our culture.

Jugulum,"Are you saying that the intimacy of kissing is inherently lustful? That when you kiss, you lust?". On the issue of dating, one needs to be sincere in their arguments. I think everyone must agree that "yes", kissing the person you are attracted to (not greeting our aunt at the airport) IS lustful. Kissing in a dating relationship is INHERENTLY lustful, not some benign or ‘cultural’ form of affection. Do we kiss because other people are kissing or because we want to kiss the person we are attracted to? If we are attracted to them (outside a marriage relationship) when does it become sin? I think Carol Jean’s is quite right to use Christ’s warning that ‘looking upon a women with lust’ is adultery. That warning isn’t to keep married people from straying into extra-marital affairs but to highlight the Holy standard of God in areas of sexual immorality. This whole situational ethic thinking is synonymous to telling our children they may watch R-rated skin movies as long as they are not tempted by it. Would we do that? Would we say ‘indulge but just be careful?’ We know exposure to things that lead us to temptation is a destructive for our sanctification and so Carl Jean’s reasoning is quite sound, even though it so ‘yesterday’ – which aside from ‘situational ethics’ is the only argument being launched at her clear thinking.

-Don