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Weekend A La Carte (1/22)
- 01/22/11
- 33
So the Blue Jays traded Vernon Wells. I didn’t think it could be done. The Jays are without Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells, the two men who for so many years were the face of the franchise. I hardly know what to think.
MacArthur & Patrick - John MacArthur has responded to some of the buzz about what he said about Darren Patrick. GTY’s Director of Internet Ministry explains further. I especially appreciate this: “Listen. John has more than fifty years of preaching faithfully, more than forty years in the same pulpit--don't you think you ought to listen? Don't despise the older generation; don't dismiss their wisdom; don't ignore their criticisms of you.”
Saying What You Believe - Piper makes a good point in this short article: instead of saying you’re a Calvinist, it may be better to just describe what you mean.
Tracking Down My Online Haters - A sports writer tracks down the people who use social media to saw horrible things about him and finds out that they’re actually normal, likeable people.
Worthless Small Talk - Small talk is the topic of this brief article by C.J. Mahaney. And I like what he has to say. Let’s not despise the little things that give flavor to life, even if it’s hard to see how they directly contribute to any kind of big picture.
The Ehrman Project - The Ehrman Project is a site dedicated to answering the questions raised by Bart Ehrman, who is relentless in his criticisms of Christianity.
Responding to the Great Distraction - Thom Rainer says that if your standards for church membership are low, you shouldn’t be surprised when the church is full of grumblers.
The Lord of the Rings - This may be the most marvelously entertaining thing I’ve seen in a long time. It’s a one-man Lord of the Rings. And since it’s Saturday, you’ve got an excuse to take a few minutes to watch it. This is part 1 of 4.
If one man should suffer all the sorrows of all the saints in the world, yet they are not worth one hour’s glory in heaven. —Chrysostom
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
Releasing on April 1, The Next
Published in 2008, this book
This is a guide that calls men,
This review of the bestselling
New to the site? You can get
This is a guide written
Comments (33)
Here’s my problem with the most recent post from the GTY. He’s implying that people like Darrin Patrick et al don’t listen to elder statesmen and are simply making up their own church. That’s patently false. In fact, many of us would be MORE willing to listen to the old guard if they actually practiced grace and brought criticisms directly, and privately, to others instead of putting people on blast on the Internet. My question to John MacArthur would be, “How have you helped Darrin Patrick in any way to address possible incorrectness in what he wrote by publicly confronting him? Wouldn’t personal communication have been better along with an encouragement to provide some public clarification?”This whole episode is another example of the general ethos of MacArthur, GTY, and Team Pyro that keeps me away. I rarely feel “more grace” after reading their work, which is unfortunate.
Blue Jays: I guess they’ll just continue to lose.
Macarthur: I think he’s making too big a deal out of what Patrick said. It’s obvious he’s just encouraging us to think for ourselves and not just believe something because our “hero” says it. That’s actually the way I used to be with Macarthur.
As a young-ish minister, I didn’t take this as negatively as Chris. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, and Dr. M is a friend to all ministers who love the Gospel, I think.
One note—whenever any of us are criticized, the first question isn’t “How are they wrong?”
The other issue is that Patrick is countering the comodification of theology and practice that has been having the last 50-60 years. Go to a conference buy your theology and supplies take it to your church in a completely different context and wonder why it does not work.
Instead Patrick actually encourages people to listen to their elders (more than just those of the previous generation.)
MacArthur did not apologize and the GTY post was even worse. I think MacArthur has a point that we can be so caught up in individualizing that we stop being a part of the church. But MacArthur is an example (a negative one I believe) of wanting people to agree with everything he says and just parrot. We are part of a body and we need to respect that body. We don’t have to agree with everything, but the online sniping and taking things out of context that marks MacArthur’s recent ministry has hurt a lot of people. I do respect his long term ministry. But my takeaway from his is not his theology and writings, it is his negative example of how not to get hyper critical about relatively minor points that are usually out of context, especially in very public settings.
I like the Piper bit about saying what we believe. Its more of a personal challenge for me to do this, to be able to understand what I believe and communicate it. I think I can benefit in this away as opposed to simply placing a label on myself.
As has been mentioned before, my struggle is that MacArthur never discussed this issue with Patrick before publicly criticizing him and in effective casting doubt over his ministry. From what little I know of Patrick, it doesn’t seem that he would advocate ignoring the saints of old, but rather not adopting it just because it’s always been done that way. Study, meditate, make it your own because your convinced of it’s truth. Shouldn’t Patrick’s words on those few pages be interpreted in the light of his entire ministry?
Regardless of the tact taken by MacArthur, we shouldn’t immediately discount his words because he’s frustrated us in the past, nor should be we immediately buy into it just because he’s been ministering for 40+ years. Both men are undoubtedly faithful servants, striving to live out and preach the gospel and it’s tragic for that to be forgotten amidst this whole controversy.
Tom, I agree we should not just discount MacArthur. Sometimes he is right, most of the time he has a point, even if he is not completely right.
The problem I have is that I have several friends that came close to loosing ministries because MacArthur criticized them publicly over things that were taken out of context. They both heavily relied on outside funding because they were in areas that just were not going to be self sustaining for a while. They both lost a lost of funding. Neither of these cases did he contact them before. This is common history with MacArthur. It is not biblical and inappropriate. And he needs to be called out on it. If he continues then I think it is appropriate for people to stop listening to him. I think it is sad that a man with the history and depth of ministry might become known for his sniping. But no one is forcing him to do it and many people are asking him to stop.
Yes! I said the same thing the GTY Director said to my husband when he told me about this. No offense, Darrin Patrick (whose church plant and their deeds has had effects for ALL baptist church plants in Missouri, of which I was part of :-(MacArthur has proven himself over and over again, yet Patrick has only recently appeared on the scene, mostly due to the popularity of his church, The Journey (and for its controversy).
Thanks for the link to the Ehrman Project! My New Testament professor (at a “Christian” university) relied heavily on a book of his that I ended up throwing in the trash. It is nice to know that somebody is actively refuting this attack on Scripture!
Shouldn’t the fact that Darrin, his network Acts 29, and the entire “tribe” they are often lumped into listen *intently* to and partner with and borderline revere men like D.A. Carson, John Piper, Tim Keller, J.I. Packer, Wayne Grudem, et.al. enough proof that they listen to their elders and don’t despise the experienced and wise older pastors?
“As has been mentioned before, my struggle is that MacArthur never discussed this issue with Patrick before publicly criticizing him …”
Irony alert!
Or shall I assume you discussed this with MacArthur before posting? Do you also have the same criticism for those who have criticized MacArthur here on this site, and if so, are you willing to contact each of them personally before saying so?
It appears as though Darrin has great respect for John MacArthur. He has been twittering to Phil Johnson that he would like to meet with John…fly down to So. Cal (on his own dime) to be “mentored and coached” by John. Very gracious response. http://twitter.com/#!/darrinpatrick
Bevan, your comment shows the truth of the matter, a younger man who appears to want to understand and learn from criticism!
As opposed to many commenters here, who simply jump on the bandwagon. Look, it’s a book published to the general public. Anyone, including MacArthur, is within their right Biblically to critique is publicly. To say that this is unbiblical is building a straw man.
As for “being gracious”, in our day and age it never occurs to people that a criticism could be showing grace. “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.”
Option A: JM has proven himself to know the Bible and teach it for over 40 years. We should probably assume he knows what he’s talking about and try to determine his meaning.
Option B: JM said something about my friend/hero/rockstar, therefore he must be wrong and we should accuse him of being divisive, ungracious, and unbiblical.
Seems to me that Dr. MacArthur is reading far too much into that excerpt. Though I have not read the book, seems like that’s not quite what DP was saying. Just doesn’t seem to add up.
Anytime a person publishes a book , they are openly allowing their words to be critiqued. I have not read Patricks book but have much respect for MacArthur . His words did not seem slanderous , mean and he did clarify what he meant. Perhaps he did read too much into a sentence but he has the right to publicly present his concerns . Plus its not like many haven’t slung arrows at Pastor MacArthur’s works .
The problem with these things is that Darrin Patrick has written a book which is in a public forum. If you write a book then you are susceptible to criticism. If this is something that Patrick said in a private context or interpersonal then he could have addressed Patrick in person. Yes I am able to discern. I am grateful to John M. for boldly pointing out these issues because normally I would just dive in without any discernment whatsoever. Paul the Apostle had no problem in calling out names nor should we as long as the initiator has done it in a public forum. I cannot physically call Darrin and say hey bud there is a problem here with your thinking, knowing at the same time christianity as a whole is being hurt. How could we stand by and say nothing?
I agree that there is a certain amount of irony in JM calling out without following biblical practice, bu there is a greater irony. MacArthur is a dispensational calvinist or maybe a calvinist dispensationalist, but either way that is a unique theological position and testimony that he has done his own theology. Truly ironic.
Adam @7… I *do* have a friend (who now has an excellent ministry in another church) who was forced out of a church in large part due to the actions of one of MacArthur’s associates
Yeah, that was a good point of his. Most people don’t have a clue was “Calvinist” means anyway (or so I’ve found…). Or if they do, they’ve got some negative connations attached.
As usual, thanks for sharing all this stuff. I know I may say it often, but is there a limit in being thankful?
Jared Wilson (comment #10) hit the nail on the head.
“MacArthur is a dispensational calvinist or maybe a calvinist dispensationalist, but either way that is a unique theological position and testimony that he has done his own theology.”
That’s just ignorant. Agree With MacArthur or not, if you think he’s unique or original in that, your world is too small.
Glad to know that there is a solid counter-Ehrman effort at work. I will be praying for it.
I want to point out Darrin Patrick’s twitter feed again, echoing Bevin (#12). DP has only lavished praise on JMac, saying things like “you are a hero to me” “we need more men like you to disciple our children” “I’d love to spend my own dime to fly out to Grace Church and be coached and mentored by you.” Highest of classy.
It is important to note that the reaction against MacArthur’s statement is that he completely misinterpreted/misrepresented Patrick’s book. It is not about not listening to the older generation. Mark Dever shared a disagreement on a different aspect in his recommendation of Church Planter and that is included in the book itself. You only need to read a few pages on either side of the paragraph in question to see that John MacArthur is off by a mile in his summary of the book. Better yet read the whole thing. MacArthur even plays fast and loose with where he claims Patrick is applying the term ‘unique.’ MacArthur applies it to theology and makes that his main point and Patrick never does. Again, it is not about not listening to the older generation, it is about MacArthur on this point being just plain wrong. What ‘developing your own theology’ means is made clear through the rest of the book and that theology is the historical Christian faith. It oozes from the pages of this book.
The fact that MacArthur, as virtually the only Dispensationalist, is largely accepted among the well known leaders of the Reformed camp is remarkable in itself. It demonstrates the respect he commands with men like Piper, Mohler, Sproul, Dever, Mahaney, etc… And the influence of his ministry worldwide most likely eclipses all these men put together. I think it behooves younger pastors to stop and listen when he speaks even if you don’t appreciate the manner in which he does it. Stop whinning, humble yourselves and look for ways to learn.
Isn’t it interesting how people criticize MacArthur in public here by claiming he was unbiblical for criticizing Patrick in public.
Anyone see the irony in that?
Challies,
Being an avid LOTR fan, I really appreciated the One Man LOTR. Thanks! However, have you watched parts 2 and 3? Towards the end of part 2, the F-word is used, and in the beginning of part 3, it is used again. I haven’t watched beyond that point, so I don’t know if there’s more swearing further on, but I just wanted to let you know. Maybe you could add a warning beneath the video for future viewers. It wasn’t a very welcome surprise when I was watching it with my younger brother.
After viewing DP’s twitter page and seeing how he responded to JM’s rebuke, I now plan on buying and reading his book.
I could learn a lot from a man who takes criticism the way that he did.
I don’t think it was out-of-bounds for JM to criticize DP, per se, but I guess I would have hoped he would be sure the criticism was founded, and not simply based on his impression/interpretation before doing so.
Darrin is actually my pastor, and I can tell you that he does not disdain the counsel of his elders; in fact, he craves it.
No WAY that Picard is better than Kirk!
Knowledge does indeed ‘puff up’
Tim,As an Angels fan, you are welcome. Unloading that huge contract was probably a very good thing for the Jays if they use it well. Angels fans are not overly excited about the fact that Toronto did help at all with the contract and got 2 players, but we are all great GM’s in our own head. Sorry it had nothing to do with any of the links.
I’ve downloaded “Church Planter” and I rarely see a book that is so saturated with Scripture. I’ve also read the blog post that Tim linked to (Travis Allen).
Where Patrick says a man should be thoughtful about his own theology, rather than blindly following his hero’s, MacArthur seems to read that as “make it up as you go along.”
Listen. John has more than fifty years of preaching faithfully, more than forty years in the same pulpit—don’t you think you ought to listen? Don’t despise the older generation…
John MacArthur and the rest of the preaching world over 70 do not walk in lock step. Because one disagree’s with John MacArthur (especially if it’s one thing) does not mean that one despises the older generation.
Perhaps Allen should take a page from his own book:
Don’t be so thin-skinned.