Cannot dance also be understood as a “circumstance” of singing? Your identification of it as an element would be correct if the question related to something like, “And now, our Sacred Movement team will interpret for us the trinitarian activity of God in creation.” In that sense, it is an element like “special music.” On the other hand, we would not identify clapping hands as an element, but a biblically warranted (albeit in the OT) expression that is appropriate accompaniment to joyful songs of praise (Ps. 47:1; 98:8; Isa. 55:12). Thus, can we allow a swaying, stepping congregation as part of biblical worship within the Regulative Principle? I think we can, as long as we don’t require them to do so.

I have questions along the same lines as Nate. Churches that adhere to the RP aren’t typically, in fact I would be shocked if there were any that were, charismatic. This seems inconsistent.

Secondly, I think King David would laugh at the idea that dance not be allowed as part of a worship service.

No, David probably would not laugh. Rather he would likely cry that modern dance has no resemblance to the worship he offered to God.

I agree, kind of. I think if those who adhere to RP were consistent, they would have to allow for the practice of charismatic gifts.

And sure, the RP probably would be defended by most, with the argument simply shifting to if something we (reformed charismatics) think is beneficial is thought to be detrimental to an essential by cessationists.

Oh, one more thought just came to mind. My old church used to have a Saturday night service for those who had to work on Sundays. Would that be wrong, or could you claim “was man made for the sabbath or sabbath for man?” and be acceptably breaking the rules?

(reminds me of art school: you have to know the rules before you can break them)

My two cents….

I think we need to distinguish between the dancing/worship that David did as an individual believer and the form of worship that should be observed in a congregational setting.

I’ve danced before the Lord, I’ve sang to the Lord (at the top of my lungs!), I’ve shouted to the Lord… in my personal and private devotions. However, I don’t believe that this is appropriate in a congregational setting. There are different rules of decorum. People criticized David for his display but David ignored them because his dancing and worship were personal and not congregational.

As to what is cultural, most missionaries in the early 1900’s have said that the biggest obstacles to winning various African and South American tribes to the Lord were the commandments against polygamy. Should we abandon the practice of monogamy simply because it doesn’t fit in with certain cultures? The truth needs to be preached and certain regulations need to be observed even if cultural practices and traditions teach otherwise. This includes principles of worship as well as moral commands.

I’m not a practitioner of the RP for the most part but I do believe there are some principles that need to be adhered to , such as, things done decently and in order and women keeping silent in church. Women have become outspoken in the church simply by their actions. They lift hands, Amen loudly, sway and dance to the singing, etc. and they do this on the principle that it is their right and duty to worship God in this manner. But, they are teaching others by their actions in a setting that they have no business teaching in.

Looking forward to the “Candle” conclusion.

Rick, I think you’d be hard-pressed to prove the case that membership isn’t supported in Scripture. Membership is clearly implied in admission to the Lord’s Table, Baptism, and Church Discipline, just for starters. See Mark Dever’s articles at Monergism.com and his blogs at the Together for the Gospel Blog. They really helped this Baptist turned Reformed Charismatic understand the biblical mandate for membership.

My appetite has been whet for Part 2, Tim…

i found this in the NEW Testament:

“I desire then that in EVERY place the men should pray, LIFTING holy HANDS without anger or quarreling;” - 1 Timothy 2:8 (emphasis added)

Is not the lifting of holy hands during worship—at least by the men of the congregation—an element of worship? Or is it just a circumstance (form) of an element (i.e., prayer)? If the latter, then does not Paul seem to view it as a MANDATORY form? He “desires” it in the same way (Greek: hosautos)that he “desires” certain conduct from women during corporate worship. (And of course, we all know that conduct is not circumstantial, but rather, rooted in creation.)

Perhaps i am mis-reading something. Could it be that only the praying, the holiness, and the absence of anger and quarreling are required, but the hand-raising is optional/circumstantial?

On another note, it sure is kind of hard not to dance—or at least, sway or tap one’s foot—when there is celebratory singing/music (perhaps i am assuming too much here) during the service.

i know we’re not supposed to look at the Old Testament for purposes of this discussion, but i thought i’d point out (contrary to Jabbok) that dancing in worship was not always personal/private:

See Exodus 15:20”Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron’s sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing.”

“I understand that the NT speaks about “singing” but says nothing about worshiping God with musical instruments. The psalms in particular are replete with examples, rather exortations to praise God with musical instruments.”

This is a big topic, but many Reformed folk (John Calvin among them) have not endorsed the use of instrumentation in worship for this very reason. Even today some denominations continue to sing only Psalms and to do so without instrumentation (check out a church in the Reformed Presbyterian Church or North American sometime).

Tim Challies said “I should have made this clear, but the Regulative Principle looks to the New Testament, not to the Old” in response to the idea that David wouldn’t think much of the whole dancing is not allowed idea.

If the RP looks only to the New Testament it is missing a lot of what the Bible has to say about worship! The psalms are full of instruction and examples of how to express worship to God. Dancing is included. There is no indication in the New Testament that this changed.

As for the distinction between personal and congregational worship, and what is appropriate for which, I would ask this: What about being together with the body of Christ corporately that changes our tone in worship? There are times for sober, quiet, reflective worship, and there are times for, joyful, exuberant worship. Both can be found in the psalms, and both are equally valid. I suppose that most would agree. So why, when we come together as a congregation, would we change our expression of joy to that of sobriety? Jumping up and down at football game is ok, but celebrating the glorious gospel must be done without moving one’s feet?

Obviously, in all this its important to keep in mind that the heart is what God is after, and one can dance and clap hands without it being glorifying to God. I understand that, but I would maintain that in light of the way David’s critics were made to look in Scripture, genuine, expressive, exuberant, public displays of worship to God, (made in the midst of God’s people no less), are not only not discouraged or forbidden in Scripture, they are encouraged.

I’m getting a little hung up on this NT only approach to the topic of corporate worship. It smacks of Marcionism. Here’s a quote from DA Carson, “…the richest conformity to new covenant stipulation is not some Marcion-like rejection of the Old Testament but the fruit of a biblical-theological reading of Scripture that learns how the parts of written revelation interlock along the path of the Bible’s plotline. The result is a greater grasp of what God has revealed and, ideally, a deeper and richer worship of the GOd who has so wonderfully revealed himself.” (Worship By the Book, p. 57) It seems tweaked to simply eliminate the OT from the conversation on worship. The challenge is to find the lines of continuity and discontinuity between the covenants. That makes the task a bit more complex, but certainly more faithful to the whole councel of God.

It is important to note that this principle applies only to worship services and not to other elements of life.

Sorry to ask an inane question, where do we even get the idea of a ‘worship service’ from?

What justification is there for such a marked distinction between the rest of our lives as Christians and an act of religious ceremony which we label ‘worship’?

This seems to be the massive assumption, which if challenged would surely make the whole RP irrelavant?

Perhaps a better way to frame the discussion would be to ask, “What should Christians do (and not do)when they are gathered together?”

This is helpful because the assembled body certainly has multiple concerns, including the worship of the Lord and the edification of the saints, and these need not be in competition with one another. Thus, we can also offer teaching (e.g., Sunday School) and times for fellowship (coffee breaks or potluck dinners), which do indeed correspond to the commands and examples of Scripture, though they are not “worship.”

The question I’ve posed above also allows us to distinguish between what might be permissible in private, but not necessarily edifying in the corporate gathering. It’s not that some things are morally acceptable in private and not in public, but that some things that may be personally edifying might not be edifying in a group setting. When we are together, we must look to the needs of others.

The RP is just so boring and where—really—does the Bible teach it? It’s just not there and saying that we must forbid anything that is not mentioned is just not being true to the biblical text.

The concept of Informed Biblical Worship is much more sensible and really ought to be implemented in any place where the RP is found.

Sorry to ask an inane question, where do we even get the idea of a ‘worship service’ from?

What justification is there for such a marked distinction between the rest of our lives as Christians and an act of religious ceremony which we label ‘worship’?

This seems to be the massive assumption, which if challenged would surely make the whole RP irrelavant?

yes, i suppose it might make the RP irrelevant if a “worship service” were some completely artificial event. however, i believe that here when we talk about “worship services” we are referring to the regular gathering of believers, the assembly or in other words the church, which of course is very biblical. if we, for instance, eschewed this meeting together because “we can worship by ourselves and do it any place we want,” we are violating the biblical commands to meet together for the express purpose of worship and instruction and fellowship. of course we CAN worship by ourselves and in various ways and very much ought to “worship with our lives,” not just in the service. but personal worship is not what we are discussing here; the two are not the same thing. the RP is specifically the “code of conduct” for official, corporate gatherings of believers, and that’s why Tim says the RP doesn’t apply to every aspect of life but only this particular thing.

that said, while i advocate orderly worship, i don’t know that i buy into the regulatory principle completely.

“I think a better description of the RP is not that it throws out the OT in favor of the NT, but that it seeks to emulate the manner of worship found within the early church, which is recorded for us in the NT.”

It’s better to say that the OT is interpreted in light of the NT. We know that the worship of the OT was a shadow of the reality that would come with Christ (Col 2:17, Heb 8:5, Heb 10:1). There is no reason to continue to cling to the shadows and types of OT worship.

The word for Dance used to describe what David did, means something along the lines of “to keep time with the feet”, something done a lot instead of clapping in ancient times. What we call dancing is just immodest behavior.

“The word for Dance used to describe what David did, means something along the lines of “to keep time with the feet”, something done a lot instead of clapping in ancient times. What we call dancing is just immodest behavior.”

Immodest behavior, like, for instance “”How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants’ female servants, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!” That sounds a like a bit more than keeping time with ones feet.

That was said of David. And its pretty clear that she was punished for it. Notice David’s response, “”It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me as prince over Israel, the people of the LORD—and I will make merry before the LORD.” Notice that David draws attention to the fact that it was for the Lord.

I say all this, not to advocate immodest behavior, but to make the point that its the heart that God is after. If David, who was under the old covenant, could worship in public so “merrily”, how much more should we, with so much to be joyful and thankful about, make merry before the Lord. Again, there are times for sobriety, and yes, like anything, it can be done for the wrong reasons, but eliminating exuberant outward expression that is promoted in the Old Testament because it isn’t explicitly discussed in the New? I don’t see how the Israelites would be encouraged to be expressive and exuberant and all the sudden the Lord decide that it was too distracting or immodest.

i think it is apparent from a few of the comments that some among us are persuaded that the Regulative Principle (as expressed in so-called Reformed worship) is not simply the result of careful exegesis and biblical theology, but also, in part, a reflection of particular (i.e., Western/European) cultural preferences and patterns.

semper reformanda!

Tim, you say that the RP looks to the NT, however the I find that the prooftexts given in the WCF and LBCF are largely drawn from the OT. Can you elaborate on this? I always was puzzled that passages referring to the Aaronic priesthood were used to regulate New Covenant worship.

I will need to look it up, but I read an article about the RP by John Frame which was exceedingly helpful to me in undestanding this subject. I’ll do my best to locate it and post a link later.

here when we talk about “worship services” we are referring to the regular gathering of believers, the assembly or in other words the church, which of course is very biblical. if we, for instance, eschewed this meeting together because “we can worship by ourselves and do it any place we want,” we are violating the biblical commands to meet together for the express purpose of worship and instruction and fellowship. of course we CAN worship by ourselves and in various ways and very much ought to “worship with our lives,” not just in the service. but personal worship is not what we are discussing here; the two are not the same thing. the RP is specifically the “code of conduct” for official, corporate gatherings of believers

Of course believers are supposed to meet together, but what make a particular meeting more ‘official’ that another? In others words, why can’t we light candles in a church building, but it’s fine if we have a meal together in our homes before a small group Bible study. We make this distinction, but I don’t think we find much basis for it in the scriptures.