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9 Minutes with Frank Turk
- 07/15/10
- 33
Today’s guest blogger is Frank Turk, he of Pyromaniancs fame. He shares what was meant to be a recorded conference message but has instead been relegated (reduced?) to a blog post.
*****
Some of the massive throng of readers for this blog may know that I was nominated to speak at “theNines” this year — which is an on-line event where the speakers record 9 minutes of advice for people in ministry, and the event itself is free of change. Turns out that I have also been selected. Only the rules changed this year: instead of 9 minutes, we only get 6, and the topic has itself also changed significantly. Until there’s a public announcement about that, I’ll leave that to the chaps at Leadership Network and Catalyst to disambiguate the situation.
BUT: the changes leave me with a 9-minute talk that I drafted and now cannot use — until Tim e-mailed me yesterday and asked for a submission to help him keep his blog running for a couple of days while he’s away from his desk. So for all of you, here’s what I would have said if nothing else had changed:
First of all, to sort of throw a rock at my normal constituents, I want to strongly recommend Rick Warren’s video from last year about what the purpose of the local church is. That’s a great nine minutes on what the local church ought to be, and you should go back to the archives to watch that one again and again because he’s right.
There’s another side to what Pastor Warren said in that video, and I wanted to make that the focus of my brief time here: it’s the topic of “bigness”. See: a subtext of Pastor Warren’s talk is that a ministry is not really fruitful unless it’s big - because really: only a big church with big resources can do what Saddleback does on paper and in fact in the real world. You can’t send thousands of missionaries and planters unless you have tens of thousands supporting them - or at least as a base from which to draw all those people.
And I think we have to ask: is that exactly what we’re supposed to be doing? Should we be trying to be as big as possible so we can turn out people in droves to missions and church planting?
Now: here’s the wrong answer. The wrong answer is, “house church is NT church, and everything bigger than a couple dozen is a bloated American drive-thru theology that is both unbiblical and unsavory.” That’s just simply wrong. The first church in the NT had 3000 members after the first day. The churches Paul planted usually met with trouble because they were large enough in ancient Mediterranean cities to cause economic and social changes by changing the way they lived. Big is clearly not bad, or unbiblical.
But in the context of North America, we have a problem the ancient church did not: we are experts at business process, and we are lean thinkers from the top down. We believe that mass production is a brilliant organizational and systematic approach, and we think that we should be able to do more with less - so for example, we think that one guy should be able to run an organization which takes in $5 million a year with relative ease, he should be highly compensated, and he should have an executive staff who runs things for him so he can be the vision guy. We can even cite the book of Acts where the Apostles say they refuse to wait tables for the sake of being the messengers of God’s word — to sanctify our own belief that some kind of executive pyramid is best for the church, and we can achieve more with less, and we can move from good to great - with absolutely no offense or criticism meant by me toward Jim Collins.
The problem is this: we are not marketing a product. We are not making widgets. Seriously: we are not really asking people to make some kind of commercial transaction where they give something and the church or God gives them something back. What we have is a situation in which everyone we want to tell about this Jesus who was crucified thinks they have much to give God - including advice about how to run and fix the world - when in fact we ought to point to the fact that they have nothing to give God, and that is their main problem. What we are here to put in the marketplace, as Paul did in Athens, is a declaration that for all our wealth and culture and religion, we are all now being told by God through Jesus Christ that we have no excuse of ignorance, and that when God comes to judge it will not be enough to say that we offered sacrifices and very solemn and earnest reflection to an unknown god.
We are not marketing a product with benefits which people can buy and therefore use as they please.
If we are the church, and we are concerned about the Gospel, we are telling people that the only hope they have is in disgrace. See: the only thing we have is a man who came and chastised the religious people - the liberals and the conservatives - for thinking they were safe, and for making God someone who owes them something. He said they were leading people not to the gates of heaven but to programs, and activities, and things they called discipleship - but he said this made those people twice as much a child of hell, and they have the gates of Heaven shut in their faces.
And this man chastised his believers for following him around, wanting him to feed and clothe them, and give them a high place in his revolutionary kingdom. And this man was put to death for his trouble, condemned, and disgraced.
The ones who condemned him had big churches, and they wanted a God who liked and in fact wanted big churches. And this guy - the guy we have to offer the world - told them that their big churches were useless, and that in fact he would leave them desolate - empty.
So there’s a tension in Scripture you ought to think about: God has called many people, and is glorified when people are saved by Him in large numbers. But maybe it’s a burden on those of us who want to lead God’s people, and to lead them well, to think about whether God has called us to move from Good to Great and market a product which will draw a crowd, or whether God has in fact called us to declare something which is the opposite of success, and the opposite of human excellence, for the sake of making people glad to be named the scum of the earth for the sake of Christ.
When the 3000 believed and were baptized on that first day of the church, they didn’t then form a mission statement, and then create an org chart, and then set up ministry zones or whatever: They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. They were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need, And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
That’s the definition of “big church”, y’all. Somehow we should have the teachings of the Apostles in the first place, and it should cause us to be people who want to be in the fellowship of others whom God has saved. It should make us generous, and selfless, as if we were people with nothing to lose - we should be convinced that neither death nor life, not angels or devils, not things present or things to come, not politics or criminals, not any height or depth, nor anything else in all creation, including the things we make for ourselves, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Think about your ministry. Does it lift Christ up so that people want to give up something rather than gain something? We cannot build big churches when they are composed of people with small, unsaved hearts. Is being bigger and greater going to cause your church to be more like the church in Acts 2 - or more like something you can buy from an infomercial that comes with 6 DVDs and a workbook?
Think about that - because the last thing you want when you see Jesus is for him to tell your house is desolate. Who wants their life’s work to look like a cathedral on the outside, but in the end it gets burned up like a house made of straw and sticks?
Let me challenge you, folks, to make churches that are big churches - but not big as the world measures it, as if Jesus came to die so you could be a life coach, or have a famous podcast. Make your church big on Jesus’ death for sin, and big on mortifying our human accomplishments, and big on giving this message and everything else it takes in order that many people will be saved, and many people will hear Jesus say to them, “well done, you good and faithful servant”.
Be that big. Pray about that, and be in the Lord’s house with the Lord’s people on the Lord’s day. Grace and peace to you. Amen.
*****
Frank Turk is a guy with a blog who has really amazing friends. He blogs with Phil Johnson and Dan Phillips (and Pecadillo) at teampyro.blogspot.com, and with the army of multi-spectrum evangelicals at firstthings.com’s Evangel, and at his own personal blog which you can find at iturk.com.
Frank works full time in the renewable energy sector, has a wife and kids, and loves his local church.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
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Comments (33)
this is horrible. Frank gets the opportunity to speak to thousands of people - and he rants and raves about Rick Warrens ecclesiology and the seeker movement?
what are you for Frank, what are you for?
I’m going to guess that this is what Frank is For….
“Make your church big on Jesus’ death for sin, and big on mortifying our human accomplishments, and big on giving this message and everything else it takes in order that many people will be saved, and many people will hear Jesus say to them, “well done, you good and faithful servant”.
Be that big. Pray about that, and be in the Lord’s house with the Lord’s people on the Lord’s day. Grace and peace to you. Amen.”
But I don’t know where I got that from…
You know, Danny, Frank has integrity. If our object is crowds, we can market. If our object is Christ and Him crucified, maybe crowds will be a byproduct, but not the priority or the proof.
Just like the quote from the blog the other day — “The Gospel came to the Greeks and the Greeks turned it into a philosophy. The Gospel came to the Romans and the Romans turned it into a system. The Gospel came to the Europeans and the Europeans turned it into a culture. The Gospel came to America and the Americans turned it into a business.”
Does it lift Christ up so that people want to give up something rather than gain something?
This is a question I think we are starting to ask more (see Chan’s Crazy Love and Platt’s Radical), but we need to still be asking it.
I think Frank acquitted himself very well with both his views of the mega-church and with his encouragement to go hear Warren out. Large itself isn’t wrong. It’s the approach that gets us into trouble. If large is inherently evil, then guys we cherish, like Keller, Piper and MacArthur, are suddenly in the discernment cross-hairs. And let’s not forget past greats like Spurgeon, Bunyan and Whitefield who also preached to large crowds and congregations.
So while I suppose you could try to argue against his reasoning, you can’t argue that his approach isn’t biblical.
Well done, Frank.
Brad
Hi Danny —
Thanks for your comment. I’m looking forward to your comments that will come after reading the post.
Hmm…this post is really getting me thinking on what really is the ‘big picture’ of God. i realize that as humans our vision is so corrupt that my telescopic vision is nothing more than a wasted life for God, and a menial work done in utter humility and the gospel preached as is, is a mighty part in God’s big picture. What I’m not able to put a finger on is this: is it wrong to use our gifts to glorify God? If indeed the purpose of the elect is to glorify God in everything that they are and everything that they do, why then is being a business coach or a entrepreneur any less in service to God than being an evangelist? when you say:
When the 3000 believed and were baptized on that first day of the church, they didn’t then form a mission statement, and then create an org chart, and then set up ministry zones or whatever…
which i know is a comparison that is made to the mega-churches today, but is putting in your strategic skills, creating ministry zones with the mind of Christ in order to further the Kingdom of God any less pleasing to God than someone who prays fervently, or someone who is a missionary to that place?
I recognize that the office of pastors, evangelists etc. are much more honorary positions in God’s plan, but that doesn’t imply that a man who does his business , doing the work of his hands with God on His mind, is in any way ‘not’ doing the God’s job. Also i believe that the local church has to teach its congregation not only the Word of God, but also how to work with their hands in a manner that brings glory to God. I’ve known umpteen instances wherein people are ‘holy’ within the confines of the church, but in their own workplaces they are simply abiding with the flesh and the devil. I a reminded of Jeremiah 7:1-8 in which God accuses His people of presence in His house, whereas, in their deeds outside of the temple, they prove their wickedness. So if the church makes provisions to disciple godly workers, is that unbiblical? Since this post is written in response to Rick’s statements, the neutral stance of Frank, in my opinion, is not very clear.
Brad —
Aha.
I wonder: what about the young fella watching the 9s — or maybe reading this post — who has one of those churches that will never peak about 150 attenders, or about 40-50 member-families? When he watches Rick Warren’s good video about the purpose of the church and does want any red-blooded American will do (compare the results), should his objective be to make sure he gains tens of thousdands in order to send thousands?
Or is the 9s only for those with the opportunity to fill the Compac Center?
Having just finished reading The Trellis and the Vine (Matthias Media) this was very timely. May the Lord grant us the wisdom and desire to have churches that are big in the ways you’ve described.
Thank you for the great post. I am three and half years into a church planting journey and was unfortunately drawn into the consumerist-seeker model as we started the church. My sermons were weak, and my methods were deplorable. One day (six-months in) my wife asked me…”when do plan to actually start preaching.” Ouch! Thank you Lord for a good help-mate and ministry partner in my wife!
So in prayer and new-found humility, I simply began to center our church on the cross, on the gospel. Radical idea, I know! But then we became BIG! No, we didn’t grow numerically much at first, but people’s lives began to be transformed as everything they had and did began to be re-arranged so as to be centered on the gospel. I saw business men doing BIG things with their money that had nothing to do with their portfolio. I saw families doing BIG things with their homes as they suddenly decided to adopt children. I saw young men and women make BIG decision to spend their spring breaks ministering to the least of these. I saw people becoming BIG by being living sacrifices. It is all by His grace and for His glory.
Danny, read the post my brother. It’s clear what Frank is for…it’s what we all should be for…gospel-centered, Christ-exalting churches.
Frank,
You wrote: When he watches Rick Warren’s good video about the purpose of the church and does want any red-blooded American will do (compare the results), should his objective be to make sure he gains tens of thousdands in order to send thousands.
Faith in Jesus Christ will always rule such a lad, if the Spirit of God is him. And if Christ is in him, then he’ll know that measuring numerically and expecting a certain ROI is a fools errand. He’ll know that single seeds must die to produce 30, 60 and 100 fold returns. He’ll take to heart Paul’s lamment to Timothy that at the end of his life after everone left him, and he’ll realize that he’s being encouraged now by Paul’s struggle with abandonment thousands of years after.
And so such a young man will realize that what he does now may not bear fruit until the life to come, or that it may not be readily evident to him now. His job is to believe in the Lord Jesus and then go preach the Good News…it’s as simple as that. He plants, he waters but God makes it grow.
And I guess I’m more optomistic (naive?) when it comes to Mr. Warren. I don’t see Rick as having some sort cryptonite hold on the collective conscience of the church when it comes to church planting. He certainly has influence and there are certainly ambitious young men wishing for huge venues like his and predicting huge returns. But God has raised up many parapets in the Church to balance his errant thinkings and enthusiasims, just as he’s raised up Warren to encourage us in evangelism - and apparently you have six minutes to help out to that end.
Brad
Frank,
Thank you for your post. Like a couple of guys before me, I go to a local church that is big on Jesus. We’ve seen false converts be truly saved (In a congregation of about 700 across a three service time, there have been a half a dozen men and women I know personally, and more I’ve heard of), and my wife and I have become active in turning our young, three year old home into one that honors our Lord whereas before we just wanted to skate by with what was “enough”. This because of the preaching of the Word of God and His Holy Spirit conforming us to Jesus, just like He said He would. Praise God for you reminding us to keep Jesus as the reason we want to be big and why.
Danny,
When I first read Frank’s post and saw him mention Rick Warren, I wondered where he was going with it too. But as I read the whole article, just as it has been said before me, he told us why he mentioned it. I read Frank on Pyro, and I haven’t seen a post yet that has made me question what he believes, so I had to consider that too when I saw the opening paragraph - he’s got a track-record of loving and serving the Lord in truth, rightly dividing the Word so far as I can tell.
Frank Turk is a growing embarrassment to Phil Johnson and it is getting to be a liability for him as head of Grace to You. For Frank to use his platform here to puff Rick Warren is pretty telling both about this blog and Frank Turk.
Fantastic post, Frank. Thanks!
[Do I] lift Christ up so that people want to give up something rather than gain something?
That’s going on the fridge.
And with respect, Pierce, how is saying “Rick Warren is right about a small point, but the Bible says clearly he’s colossally wrong about many other larger, more essential points” somehow an embarrassment to the Church (of which Phil, Frank, me and you are all members)?
Hi “Pierce” —
Thanks for your comments.
I wonder: Danny thinks I was taking RW & Co. to unfair task, and you think I was “puffing” him. I wonder if it is possible to do both? Or is it more likely that I did something else here which extremists on both sides cannot receive because of their own biases and investments (intellectual, spiritual, relational)?
Did you see Rick Warren’s video from last year’s “the 9s”? If not, why not? If so, tell me: what does he say in that video which make my reference here to it a “liability” to GTY? I’d be interested to know for the sake of my own sanctification.
I look forward to your reply as loving concern for my eternal state and the condition of my faith.
Thanks again, Brad — let me challenge you about something. And as I do, let’s remember that we’re all Calvinists, OK? You and I at least are guys who would say that God is Sovereign in a Large-and-in-Charge way.
Let’s consider Demas. Demas was one of Paul’s guys, right? He was a disciple of Christ through Paul, and sat directly under Paul, and heard Paul preach the Gospel — and may have in fact preached the Gospel with him. But Paul says, “because he loved this world, [Demas] has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.”
This is Demas of whom Paul also said he was a “fellow worker” as Mark and Luke. If someone like Demas can go the wrong way under Paul, how much more must we who are merely after Paul in the same sort of peril?
I mention this only to ask you to see the world the way the Bible sees the world — which is a place which is under the rule of Christ (an optimistic view) and still in the throws of sin (a tragic and fearful view). Our friends who are young preachers and ministers who are faithful to the world may also be influenced by people and events to do what seems right in his own eyes and in the eyes of other people. We should offer them something more than a congratuations for the snapshot of faithfulnes they have right now. Just as Paul did for Tmothy, we should exhort them to find the ways to stay faithful and win the victory which belongs to Christ.
Consider it, and God be with you.
“We should offer them something more than a congratuations for the snapshot of faithfulnes they have right now.”
I couldn’t agree more Frank. We’ve had lots of discussion and disagreement over the years about what a faith in Jesus looks like in both spirit and in truth. What I was driving at was that while Rick’s views and methodology are unsettling in many ways, God still works all things for his good. We should take solace in that even while we admonish, exhort, discipline and love just as we are called. So God will even use a Timothy and a Demas to prove which is right - all the while we are being commanded to daily exhort one another to live and preach the Gospel of our Lord. What did I miss?
Again, enjoyed the even-handed post and feedback.
Brad
you knew you would get to Demas.
Excellent thoughts bro.
Thanks for putting them together. I wish the whole Church would grab hold of this with their hearts.
Why do I go to church? To worship God, and Christ, and to adore Him, as I seek His grace and power, so I can love His people, and even my enemies, and bear fruit for His glory all week long?And as a sinner in this age, I also go for wrong reasons as well, but I will keep working on those, with His grace and help.
Here’s my wish, that God will increase Frank’s wisdom and willingness to speak truth a hundred fold more.
How refreshing you are, Frank.
Danny,
Any large church that forgets or ignores that Christ must increase, while we must decrease (John 3:30), is unfortunately on its speedy way to becoming a large country club with membership fees. But, I have no doubt that God works His miracles in big fat churches in spite of our getting in His way.
My thoughts exactly.
great post Frank! I think one of the problems that they forgett Church is mainly for the believers, so when church (as in congregating) becomes for the unbeliever then definitely what becomes important is getting as many unbelievers as we can, and so now Church becomes a product we have to advertise to be able to lure those unbelievers in…
A refreshing perspective! Thank you for writing, Frank. I’ve never really been to your blog before, but I think I’ll mosey on over now; now is as great a time to start as any!
On a side note, I do think many people (from both the reformed camp AND the seeker camp) have RW all wrong. Pastor Rick lives a stone’s throw away from me, and though I no longer work for or attend Saddleback Church (the church the Lord chose to save me at), I still find joy in calling his family and staff good friends.
But, anyway, back to you Frank. Thanks again, and I’ll see you at your blog!
I’m a long time reader of TeamPyro and I’ve always found your musings to be well grounded in a biblical sense. This blog entry does nothing to diminish that impression! Great job!
The point of your treatise and discussion here might be boiled down to a single, simple word called “scale”. Is a small church of say 30 members really less “effective” than a mega-church of 10,000? It depends upon two things: 1) your definition of “effective” 2) who do you REALLY think is providing the energy to keep this sin sodden world in orbit? Shouldn’t we consider that regardless of a church’s size, we as the members of the Body of Christ must keep in mind that it’s not the size of the vine we’re attached to that matters. It’s the fruit that we branches produce! [Frank, just so there are no misunderstandings or hurt feelings… I’m in complete agreement with your stated opinion in this post. I’m simply giving a different perspective here. I know that you were really worried about this…!! ;-)]
I don’t mean to be repetitious here, but earlier on Tim’s blog I mentioned a church-planting ministry that again comes to mind because of what Frank says here. The name of this ministry is Empart International: www.empart.org. I’ll not take up room here with the details. Here’s my blog entry from last June 3rd: http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/humanitarian-jesus#comment-44931
The reason I bring this up again is that the Impart ministry is about the flattest Christian mission organization I’ve ever seen. Headquartered in Australia, Empart’s primary focus is sharing the Gospel via church planting in both India and Southern Asia. When the founder of Empart talks about planting 100,000 churches in the next 10 years; he’s not talking about buildings. He’s talking about eventually having 100,000 indigenous Pastors in the field, each preaching and teaching in their own houses, in their own villages. All these Pastors are trained by other indigenous Pastors, (while living in their homes). With this system in place today, the church planting and Gospel sharing effort is increasing in headcount and reach at a geometric rate. And the founder (Jossy Chacko) gives all the credit to God.
So my point here is this: if Empart’s average church membership in India is say 200 (just a number to work with…), but there are 20,000+ of these churches up and running, under what criterion or by what standard do we classify the success or failure of such a miracle? Also, keep in mind that all of this is happening under the worst of religious and political climates! Another benefit of this particular church-planting strategy is that the Member/Pastor ratio is relatively small by modern standards.
All I can say is that Saul of Tarsus would be very proud of results like this… Wouldn’t you agree???
Dan H.
Dan —
I don’t think your point is my point, but it is running in the same direction on a very close trajectory. I’d own it.
I like the detail there that every church is a miracle — especially churches under severe persecution. That could be its own blog post all by itself.
“… still in the throws of sin …” perhaps throes ?
Public Notice:
As moderator, I apologize for missing comment #14 above by Pierce, who wrote:
Frank Turk is a growing embarrassment to Phil Johnson and it is getting to be a liability for him as head of Grace to You. For Frank to use his platform here to puff Rick Warren is pretty telling both about this blog and Frank Turk.
Had I caught it earlier, before Frank answered it, I would have deleted it for the garbage it is. Since it has been answered, my options are to delete it and Frank’s answer, or leave them both. I’ve chosen the latter, so I can make an example.
At this point, a few things need to be said:
1. This is no place for insults.
2. If you want to scold someone, go talk to your children. They’re not here.
3. What a blog owner chooses to post is his business. if you want content control, get your own blog.
4. People like Pierce are an embarrassment and a liability to Christ and the church.
5. Don’t be like Pierce.
I wasn’t impressed with comment #1 by Danny, either, but for some reason I left it. I must have been feeling generous.
Hi David —
Thanks for your back-up on the topic of anonymous trolls. The short answer I’d give is that I’m a big boy, and this is the internet — I lost not one minute of sleep over either comment. My appetite is unabashed. :-)
Honestly, I think that the only harm guys like this can do to others is if the objects of their scorn lose their composure. I think that if Danny answers my question, and “Pierce” answers my question, there will be a very interesting conversation opening up about what is and is not orthodox, edifying, and actually useful for the good of others — especially in the church at large.
Vigilantes for Jesus like these guys — who are not in the same theological camp, but wear the same cap of pride bearing only a different colored feather — need to be heard out, but only if they will do more than drive by. If they want a conversation or a debate, let’s do -that-, but trossing a rock into Tim’s living room because I said one Rick Warren video is/isn’t worth watching is just intellectual vandalism, not standing up for what’s right.
Frank,
I know you can take it, and give it back even better.
We don’t moderate much here. Nearly every opinion is tolerated. Still, every road must have at least some rules, like you can’t drive in the right lane (sorry, Brits), you can’t drive drunk, and you can’t shoot at other motorists, even if they’re driving armored Humvees. Here’s another metaphor (just because it’s fun): I don’t expect guests to raise their pinkies at tea, and I might let them drink from the saucer, but they can’t throw the china at the host.
So you see, protecting you isn’t the point at all.
Concerning the comments in question: Danny would be more than welcome to come back and post an actual comment rather than just chuck water balloons. Pierce needs to apologize, or stop playing Christian.
Fair enough. Just sayin’ that even this stuff and be turned onto something constructive.
Hi Frank,
Thanks for your gentle and kind words here. You’re right. In retrospect I can see that my wording linking our ideas was overly generous. The “scale” concept was simply what came to mind as I read your post.
Dan H.
P.S. I wonder how Tim’s digital moratorium is doing?
Tim…? You’re not reading this before next Monday, are you…? ;-)