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Lactivism and Public Breastfeeding
- 07/07/06
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Earlier this week I encountered an amusing but startling article in the blog section of the Palm Beach Post. The author discussed a recent situation involving Victoria’s Secret.
“Victoria’s Secret became the target of breast-feeding activists this week after women in Racine, Wis., and Quincy, Mass., went into the popular women’s lingerie store and were told they couldn’t breastfeed their children on the sales floor.
It’s hard to imagine that Victoria’s Secret, of all places, could be anti-breast—or at least squeamish about the partial exposure of a woman’s breast amid the racks of revealing peekaboo attire on sale.
But it happened. The result: Victoria’s Secret was the target of a nationwide ‘nurse-in’ protest this past weekend called for by a group of angry breastfeeding women.”
I’d hate to be on the wrong side of a group of angry breastfeeding women! I think it could only be worse to be on the wrong side of a group of angry homeschooling women. But I digress. It seems terribly ironic that Victoria’s Secret, a company that has done a great deal to commodify the breast along with every other aspect of female anatomy, refuses to allow women to breastfeed on their premises. As the article says, “Victoria’s Secret, after all, is all about partial, and more-than-partial exposure of a woman’s body.” The company’s advertising shows a lot more exposed breast than is likely to be seen when a woman nurses her child. And what’s wrong with a woman feeding her child in public?
Until six years ago I had never thought much about breastfeeding. My mom, with still a little bit of hippie in her blood (you should see those early photos of her as a mother), raised five children and each of us breastfed for at least a year or two. There is good reason, I think in retrospect, that the five children in our family are all spaced three years apart! I was the second child to be born into the family and so, for at least five or six years of my life, I saw little sisters breastfeeding. I thought nothing of it, for it was as natural as breathing. Babies needed to eat, so mom fed them. If they needed to eat at home, mom fed them at home, and if they needed to eat when we were out, mom fed them in public. Actually, I’m pretty sure mom even fed them in the front seat while dad was driving the car, something that wasn’t forbidden back then as it is today (for good reason, I might add). I called my mother this morning to confirm my memories and she said, “Yes! I fed you guys all over Toronto.” And what’s more, she thought nothing of it. I don’t think it ever occurred to her to do otherwise. She was discreet about it, of course, but was certainly not ashamed to fed us when we need to be fed. There was nothing complicated about it.
Six years ago, Aileen gave birth to our first child. Suddenly, breastfeeding seemed complicated. Aileen struggled with breastfeeding in public or even in “semi-private” conditions (such as when friends were visiting). She would gladly nurse the baby when her girlfriends were present, but when a man entered the room, she would opt instead to drag her friends to a different room. Somehow, between generations, breastfeeding had become shameful. While a few of our friends would, with some hesitation I think, breastfeed when men were present, most tended to camp out in a room by themselves, or at least sat around a corner or with their backs turned.
Aileen recently gave birth to our third child and she still will not feed her in public. If we happen to be in public when Michaela demands her dinner, Aileen will sequester herself in a bathroom or other private area and settle down to feed the baby.
It is not my purpose here to argue for or against public breastfeeding. Ultimately, a woman should confer with her husband and do what makes them feel comfortable. If they are uncomfortable with nursing a child in public, the mother should not feel compelled or obliged to do so. Similarly, if they are unashamed to have her feed the child in public, then by all means, she should do so. The right to nurse in public is protected by the laws of the land, and so it should be.
I found the story from the Palm Beach Post quite instructive. It shows something about our society, I think, that we will gladly tolerate breasts when they are in the context of sexuality, but not when they are in the context of child-rearing. Somehow, over the past couple of decades, public breastfeeding has become taboo. Stores and restaurants routinely demand that breastfeeding moms take their babies to the bathrooms to nurse them there. More and more people seem to regard it as unnatural or disgusting. Victoria’s Secret can plaster the store windows with huge posters of nearly-naked women with their breasts almost fully exposed, but when a woman sitting inside the store discreetly latches her child to a breast, it is regarded as exhibitionism.
My dad has often remarked that television and movies, while routinely showing scenes with explicit sexual content, will almost never show scenes that involve sex between married couples. He does not mean to say that it would be somehow morally superior to show a married couple engaging in sexual acts on the movie or television screen, but simply that it is only a certain kind of unnatural, unbiblical sexuality that our society wishes to see. Satan hates what is natural and good. He loves what is unnatural and evil. When we look at breastfeeding in this context, it makes perfect sense that our society does not object to public displays of breasts when they are in the context of sexuality. Men love to be able to walk past Victoria’s Secret and to see vivid images of other women displaying their near-perfect bodies. But in the context of something that is natural and good, such as a woman nursing her baby, breasts are somehow repulsive. We have exchanged the natural for the unnatural. And I guess we must like it that way.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
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Comments (73)
That is a very interesting observation. When our baby Justin was born, my wife would breastfeed him discretly in public, and we never had any issues. At first she was uncomfortable so we would find a location where I could sit in such a way as to block people from seeing, but when I suggested the washroom, her response was to ask something like, “Would you want to eat in a public restroom?” She had a point there.
Back to you post, it seems our society excels in saying good is evil and evil is good. Saying homosexual behaviour, sex outside of marriage, etc are wrong is decried as being intolerant, while dancing around half-naked (or sometimes fully naked) to celebrate ones deviant sexual activities is proclaimed to be good and a healthy expression of pride.
The more I consider this, the more areas I see it being the common practice of our culture today. As I realize that more and more, I wonder how long it will be until the sins of this nation and culture have reached their fullness and judgment comes.
Oh that God would send true revival!
“I’d hate to be on the wrong side of a group of angry breastfeeding women! I think it could only be worse to be on the wrong side of a group of angry homeschooling women.”
HILARIOUS.
Do you remember this…
(It is in the 5 great blogs that are not on your blogroll)
TulipGirl - It seems I am one of the few bloggers who has not linked TulipGirl. Maybe it’s because she writes about motherhood (and breastfeeding and so on) just a little bit too much for my comfort! She is Reformed, friendly and personal and updates on a near-daily basis. I can’t think of a good reason not to add her to my list…
(chuckling)
*sigh*
The attitude is the same here in the UK. Scotland recently passed a law making it illegal for anyone to refuse permission for a mother to breastfeed her child, as the staff did in Victoria’s Secret.
It was prompted in part by a stream of incidents similar to the one you report, where women were asked to leave shops or restaurants whilst feeding, or to go to the bathroom to do it. The most recent one reported was a when a bus driver stopped a bus in Edinburgh and told a young mother and her baby to get off the bus because she was breastfeeding.
I’m quite convinced that the same people who are such vocal opponents of public breastfeeding would have no qualms going to somewhere like Spain for their holidays. There, the beaches and poolsides are overrun with women quite happily exposing their breasts for all to see - no babies attached of course!
Tim, I think it’s safe to say that you’ve never before used the word “breast” so many times in one article. Shocking.
Wow. Breastfeeding. I am certainly glad my wife and I do not have to deal with it. I am probably very unqualified to talk on this, but I don’t care how natural it is, It would be weird to have someone in my sight doing this. I am not saying that makes it wrong, but I never grew up around this so it is strange to me. Good points about society wanted to celebrate what is wrong and condemn what is biblical. What else would we see from the world?
My mom, with still a little bit of hippie in her blood (you should see those early photos of her as a mother) …
Oh, you tease, you! ;-)
I also would second the “hilarious” that 4ever4given (#2) said.
I’ve got nothing serious to say — it’s Friday.
“Tim, I think it’s safe to say that you’ve never before used the word “breast” so many times in one article. Shocking.”
Perhaps not coincidentally, I’ve also never giggled as much while writing an article before. ;)
Nudity is wrong period.
There’s no reason that a breastfeeding mother can’t put a small blanket or something over the baby while it’s feeding, as all the breastfeeding mothers I know do when in public. You can breastfeed and be discrete.
Its’ sad the the declining morals of our time allow both Victoria Secret ads, and have Christians defending public nudity.
I had one friend who had to ask a woman to cover up in public meeting, and she got indignant and said that if he was a christian it wouldn’t bother him. He gave the best reply I’ve ever heard.
“I was saved, I wasn’t neutered”
Good one Tim. I like what your Dad said and I have never heard it put that way before. We’ve got movies about gay cowboys or that have blood spraying everywhere but a woman can’t feed a child—modestly—in public. Its crazy.
Josh
OK, here is an honest question: I can think of a number of biblical passages that speak of nudity or “nakedness” as a sin. Are the any that specifically address a woman’s breasts in that context? The reason I ask is that I had a conversation a while ago with a missionary who works in the South Pacific. He mentioned that among the people group he works with, breasts are viewed as baby-feeding equipment only, and they think the American sexual fascination with them is pretty gross.
HA ha… well, I suppose I have to (at least partially) agree with Lance R above. I am a single man who still happens to be a virgin and will definately covet my wife’s - well, you know - once I get married. I think I will strongly encourage her to not expose anything in public whether for my baby or not. I would hate to have to smack a tactless young man for staring at her chest… No, I waited for those for 28 years, they are mine! MINE! You can’t see them!
Ok, anyway, I am not even married to her yet and I am already about to smack anyone who glances a lustful eye in her direction.
I say, in a world where perversion is everywhere, we should keep our loved ones out of the public eye.
but that is just a single man’s two cents.
z.
“No, I waited for those for 28 years, they are mine! MINE! You can’t see them!”
Your baby might have something to say about that!
I sympathize with the concerns about modesty, but really I don’t know that a lot of guys stare lustfully at milk-laden breasts when a woman is breastfeeding. I think the problem is not that guys stare, but that the woman feels like she is doing something improper.
“I think the problem is not that guys stare, but that the woman feels like she is doing something improper.”
yep.
Tim,
Is it Friday? Did Tim say he giggled?
I think that almost everyone woman I have seen feeding in public uses some blanket or cover while feeding their children. My son was fed up to about 13 months when he decided he was done feeding, mostly because he wanted to be involved in everything going on around him.
Lance, I hope your friend doesn’t mind, but I am going to use that line with a little twist.
“Look, my soul might be saved, but I wasn’t neutered in the process!” Or something like “Being saved and the sanctification process does not come with a neutering procedure.”
Feed on women, it’s your God given responsibility. I sure can’t do it, nor would I want to give birth.
As a previously (and soon to be again) breastfeeding mama, I have never been asked not to breastfeed anywhere, but have always made a point of being very discreet about it if in a public place. My husband, who was otherwise very supportive of my breastfeeding, was very particular about where it was done, if we were not alone in our home. It seemed to me that he was more concerned about making other people feel uncomfortable, than about the needs of our son and myself, UNTIL, one day, he finally said, “I don’t want some other man seeing your breasts!” Oh, if he’d only said that in the first place, I’d have felt so much better! :-) I still don’t completely agree with him—I WON’T feed in the bathroom, unless there’s a separate sitting area away from the toilets, and still feel that once the baby is latched on, there’s not much to see, even if you’re not covered by a t-shirt or blanket, which I, and most other women I know, do anyway. It’s good to get some “backup” from the male point of view,—thanks!
As a breastfeeding mama I applaud your post. You’ve written everything I want to scream, but you wrote so much more politely than I would. ;)
I’ve noticed that the commenters who seem bothered by the idea of nursing in public (NIP) are all men. Let me say that I honestly never want anyone to be offended by the method i use to feed my son. However, I will not feed him in a bathroom and if it’s warm i wll not make him roast by putting a blanket on his head. Breastfeeding can be very discreet. I’m willing to bet that there have been many time a mom has been nursing and you didn’t even know. Putting a blanket on the baby’s head only draws attention to the act.
I think it is strange to be upset with Carl’s Jr. adds, Victoria Secrets marketing, etc., and then to support public breastfeeding.
Personally, the “natural” argument is not valid for me because I do not think it is morally superior for married people to have sex in public than it is for an un-married couple.
I understand that children have to eat and many women breastfeed. However, some have suggested blankets, others have suggested finding a secluded area, etc. I think all of these options are viable and would help create a standard of modesty that Christians often like to see.
Having said that, I do realize the intention of the article was not to defend public breastfeeding. Rather, it was to point out how ironic Victoria Secrets is acting. I certainly agree, we (as a society) are very willing to tollerate provacative pictures and ads but not women breastfeeding. It truly is strange.
In Christ alone,mike
About a year ago I walked up behind a woman sitting on a chair in our church sanctuary. She had a 1 month old that I had not yet seen. He was laying on her shoulder asleep, or so I thought. I walked up and patted him on the head and made some comment about his hair then I realized I was patting his head while he was feeding. I must say I was embarrassed.
I am not against breastfeeding in public, but I warn you to be careful before touching babies.
Perhaps Victoria’s Secret does not like the use of breasts being used to feed a child in their stores because it could belittle the sexual appeal that they count on for business.
On the surface it seems ironic that a store that promotes so much exposure of skin would deny breastfeeding, but in reality the sweet innocence of a mother feeding her child just doesn’t jive with their image.
Thanks for sharing this story!
“we will gladly tolerate breasts when they are in the context of sexuality, but not when they are in the context of child-rearing….it is only a certain kind of unnatural, unbiblical sexuality that our society wishes to see.”
Right on.
I agree with Carrie, that in Victoria’s Secret, breasts only have one purpose. It also may be that breastfeeding points out a natural consequence of sex. Since sex is promoted with lingerie, they certainly wouldn’t want to associate lingerie with babies.
As someone who nursed two children, I started out shy, but I got sick of spending hours in seclusion over something that was so natural, and had been known to nurse at truck stops, as well as in youth ministry training seminars (in a church).
Nursing can be discreet, with modesty, but we need to remember that it is a natural act, created by God.
Sex is also a natural act, created by God, but modesty still applies to that act.
I have to say, as a husband of a breastfeeding mother, I think some of the men who have expressed problems with it need to get over it. Maybe I am being harsh, but to equate a married couple having sex in public with a woman breastfeeding in public is tastless. Comparing these two things that are completely different, is to do what the world does in making breastfeeding ‘dirty’ not because it is in itself, but because of our own depraved minds.
This is not about public nudity. The amount of breast that is showing when a baby is latched on is much less than is seen even in fairly conservative one piece bathing suits. I for one found many emotions coming to me while my wife was breastfeeding, not one of them was sexual. In fact from what I have been told, most men find breastfeeding a complete turn-off, probably because it shows what breasts are primarily meant for by God, feeding babies.
If Tim thinks getting on the wrong side of a bunch of breastfeeding women is dangerous, try getting on the wrong side of a husband whose wife is breastfeeding by criticising her for doing so.
I’m as opposed to immodest bathing suits, as I’m am to indiscrete women. It’s partially because Christians starting accepting lower standards of modesty, that we’re in the immodest mess that we’re in.
If I was in a friends house and his wife wanted to let it all hang out while breastfeeding, I’d leave. I don’t go to strip clubs, indecent art exhibits, and try to use the self-serve aisle at the store to avoid the trashy magazines; why would I expose myself to something God said shouldn’t be exposed.
Purity is something God has called all of us to, and fighting the usual daily battle is enough, without putting myself in those kind of situations.
Hey Tim,
I wouldn’t be suprised if parental control software blocked this post. Truly R-rated!
If I had been a brand new mom, needing to feed my baby for the first time in public somewhere and someone told me I had to leave…..ah…that would have been a huge shock and it would have taken me forever to get over it. Would have majorly increased my shyness and uh…am I doing this discretely enough fears. As a new mom, it takes a bit of getting used to the idea of just feeding your child when your child is hungry. Being told to leave, or being treated like you are doing something wrong, is not a good thing. And yes, people NEED to get over it. It’s feeding a child, not enticement!
Victoria Secret I must say is living up to what they are selling. They are selling sex. Breastfeeding doesn’t encourage the whole idea of sex, it is for most people NOT a turn-on.
So in someways it makes sense for them to say, uh…we’d really rather you not do that here. But at the same time, they need to consider that feeding a child is a natural thing to do and they could have provided a more comfortable place for the woman in question to feed her child… a chair, a stool, a private area or whatever was needed. And that would have increased or at the very minimum, maintained their customer base. My guess is that the woman question is somewhat unlikely to return to that location, neither I’m thinking would her partner (hopefully husband).
Of course the resultant media exposure may or may not help that customer base. :) Ah well, once again they got their name out there. Once for the eviction, and once for the demonstrations. Sex will sell, but in this case, maybe breastfeeding will as well.
I breastfed all three of my children and discreetly. I believe some women do not want it done publicly because it reminds them of their unwillingness to give this option to their own children. Additionally, Victoria’s Secret might not want to remind people that babies are frequently the result of the activity which makes their business so lucrative in the first place.
Lance, I think it’s really sad that you seem to equate breast-feeding with “strip clubs, indecent art exhibits” and “trashy magazines.” Ever see a porn magazine with a nursing woman? I’m no expert but I doubt such a thing exists. The reason is obvious: the sight of a woman nursing her baby is not erotic. Just remember that until recently every mother had to nurse her baby or have the baby nursed by a wet nurse. Baby formula is a recent invention (probably not a great one either except for those who aren’t able to nurse their own children). And remember, too, that in earlier times, houses were much smaller and people had outhouses instead of bathrooms. My point: for most of human history, the sight of a woman nursing her baby was just part of the fabric of life - normal, natural and inevitable and - beautiful. Can you imagine having never seen a mother nursing her child? What an impoverishment of life that would be.
Lance,
Your belief that a mother must let it all hang out to nurse her baby suggests that you’ve failed to notice many discreet nursing mothers, some of whom may have even been near you.
Lance,
Is your issue with ALL public breastfeeding or with only what you would consider “indecent” public breastfeeding. As a mother who has nursed her children in public—always discreetly, I often find the objection isn’t because anyone sees anything, but simply the idea that I’m feeding my child using my *gasp* breast. As a Christian woman, I do have a responsibility to be modest, but breastfeeding is NOT inherently immodest.
We live in such a sterilized, sexualized culture that God’s good purposes for our bodies wig us out. And to that I say, get over yourself. It’s not about someone trying to offend you or anyone else, but merely fulling our God-given responsibility to feed our children. Mothers in our society have enough issues with isolation without being told to stay away from the public until we wean our kids or feed them expensive and substandard substitutes.
I thought I would add my 2 cents since Tim is posting about me. I don’t have an issue with public breastfeeding. I have issues with the men who go red, look mortified and start mumbling. I can’t handle the reaction. It makes me wonder what they are thinking. It much easier just to find somewhere else.
Lance,
You have gotten yourself into some hot water with many christian women.
Please take it as a lesson learned. It might be best to hold your tongue as James says… Quick to listen, slow to become angry and even slower to speak.
Again… Did Tim say he Giggled?
Lance, please forgive my misquote…
James 1: 19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
His,Sam
Ladies, relax. Nurse your babies wherever you are. You need to go on about your business, and babies need to be fed. Often both need to be done at once. Be as discreet as possible, but if perchance I see a breast, wich has happened more times than I can count, I will be neither disgusted nor turned on.
You guys who are uptight about it, loosen your collars a little. Visit a farm. Read a biology text. Get over it, and stop making things difficult for the ones who made your life possible.
I’ve nursed five children and had modest nursing clothes that I used while doing so. I bought mine at a store called Motherhood Maternity. It’s very easy to nurse a baby discreetly.
I’m a (single) missionary in South America where public breastfeeding is pretty commonplace. Having grown up in a fairly conservative family, the first few times (20) I saw this, I was kind of uncomfortable. But now…it doesn’t even make me blink. And trust me…it’s about as far from being sexual as you can get. I probably wouldn’t sit and have a conversation with the lady, but I like having a healthier attitude about it.
Anyhow, most of the husbands here that I know are too proud of their new babies to worry too much about other men checking out their wives. Which doesn’t seem to happen anyhow. Go figure.
I can’t imagine how anyone would think I’m against breastfeeding, which I consider to be completely natural and God’s design to feed babies. I’m against exposure & nudity. Breastfeeding in public is just fine as long as there is no exposure.
I will never be one of those people who don’t speak because they’re afraid of a little hot water, but I’m used to be misinterpreted.
The issue is more than just sexual attractiveness, there are women out there that even if nude wouldn’t attract, but that doesn’t make them being nude ok. I think it’s sad enough that Christian women will wear clothing that shows cleavage.
Yeah, Tim. It’s sad how “bad money drives out good.” No question.
I think the increasing sexual objectification of women has made wise women a bit skittish about anything that invites that kind of reaction. I agree, it would be healthy to overcome it, and people should be encouraged to freely behave as they, in good conscience, can see fit.
And Victoria’s Secret? They just don’t want any non-enticing visuals in their stores. Would ruin the mood.
Cheers,PGE
Aileen …. exactly.
Wow,
Thirty-Nine (39) comments on a post that includes the topic of womens’ breasts…and the majority of the commenters are men…who would have thought that!?!?
The admonition from James in Scripture directed at Lance (regarding slow to speak, slow to anger, etc.) works both ways…you who have been quick to get a little touchy with his view.
Tim, you sure know how to drive your comments upward…with fallen man, you can never miss when the subject is the female anatomy…no matter how well it may be cloaked in a subject such as breastfeeding.
Brian ??????????
ps. Before everyone gets all in a huff…my comments were said tongue in cheek…although I know you can’t see that, and I can’t create a little icon with symbols to show it…
“Nursing can be discreet, with modesty, but we need to remember that it is a natural act, created by God.”
Deborah, you are so right. I didn’t nurse my two, and wish I had. But, it wasn’t encouraged by the DR. But, I was nursed, as were my two brothers. I remember growing up with this in church - with other women nursing. I never thought about it. Most people keep themselves covered, or as some of the women have mentioned here, doesn’t matter if some use a blanket or not, most of the time you never know a baby IS nursing!
There’s nothing wrong in nursing in public or anywhere else, for that matter. Someone mentioned they’d get up and leave if a Mother started to nurse in his presence. Would you not feel a litte awkward, if you were a friend, walking out, calling attention to yourself? Most Mothers do not ‘let themselves hang out’ when they are feeding their baby. AND, then there are those that just HANG OUT without a baby! THOSE are the one that should be ashamed, not the Mother’s nursing. But, some men will stare at the lowcut clothes and women’s bosoms, but then be shocked to see a woman breastfeeding in public! Sort of turned around, don’t you think?
“Nursing can be discreet, with modesty, but we need to remember that it is a natural act, created by God.”
Deborah, you are so right. I didn’t nurse my two, and wish I had. But, it wasn’t encouraged by the DR. But, I was nursed, as were my two brothers. I remember growing up with this in church - with other women nursing. I never thought about it. Most people keep themselves covered, or as some of the women have mentioned here, doesn’t matter if some use a blanket or not, most of the time you never know a baby IS nursing!
There’s nothing wrong in nursing in public or anywhere else, for that matter. Someone mentioned they’d get up and leave if a Mother started to nurse in his presence. Would you not feel a litte awkward, if you were a friend, walking out, calling attention to yourself? Most Mothers do not ‘let themselves hang out’ when they are feeding their baby. AND, then there are those that just HANG OUT without a baby! THOSE are the one that should be ashamed, not the Mother’s nursing. But, some men will stare at the lowcut clothes and women’s bosoms, but then be shocked to see a woman breastfeeding in public! Sort of turned around, don’t you think?
Brian… Oh good… perhaps you can try :-)
My husband is on his way to take a board exam on Saturday for 8 or 9 hours… I miss him. I am posting way too much. Ooopsy.
Strange. And you’d think Victoria’s Secret would be a rather comfortable place for a woman to nurse. I don’t know, it has been awhile, but whenever I’ve been in there, it has been only women. The men gawked at the displays out front but seemed too shy to go in.
Anyway, this may be a state thing, but my understanding is that it is against the law to prohibit breastfeeding anywhere bottle feeding is allowed. Don’t know of anyone prohibiting the feeding of babies…and actually, I think the hungry, screaming baby is more disconcerting than a woman with a bulgy blanket thrown over her shoulder.
Driscoll-esque numbers of comments.
I have to say, as a husband of a breastfeeding mother, I think some of the men who have expressed problems with it need to get over it. Maybe I am being harsh, but to equate a married couple having sex in public with a woman breastfeeding in public is tastless. Comparing these two things that are completely different, is to do what the world does in making breastfeeding ‘dirty’ not because it is in itself, but because of our own depraved minds.
Since there seems to be some confusion on what I actually said, allow me to restate my thoughts. I said that the fact that something is natural (whether breastfeeding or sex between married couples) does not make it acceptable in public. Nobody, myself included, has said that breast-feeding is on par with sexual intercourse.
I am sorry if there was some confusion.
Nevertheless, that was not the main thrust of my post and it certainly does not fall within the main thrust of Tim’s article. For that reason, I will not sidetrack this discussion any more with this side topic.
In Christ alone,mike
wow what an edifying conversation, thanks this is just what I was looking for….I will be back for the WorshipGod06 blog, until then- adou