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True Woman (VII)
- 10/11/08
- 20
Here is the liveblog from the last of the True Woman sessions.
Immediately after this wrapped up, I hopped a cab and went to the airport. There were several hours before my flight, but I thought I’d find a place to hole up and get some work done. Well…it turns out there was an earlier flight as well and I just had time to get to it. So it worked out well and I got home at least three hours earlier than I had expected. What a blessing…
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Comments (20)
For what it’s worth, I really do think that this new Liveblogging method was the best thing for this conference - specifically because you seem to be a novelty blogger (being a man) amongst a whole bunch of other people who can do it properly. I’m not sure whether or not it would work in any other settings though…? But it sure was entertaining to read, and get a bit more of that Challies-humour into it that we all know and love!
Tim,I enjoyed your live blog at the True Woman ‘08 Conference. Have a safe flight home.
Women have always been silly with their emotions. That’s one reason why they are not allowed to lead in the church or the home. They are quite unable to control and master their emotions like men are able to. Men have emotions, but they control them much better than women as a whole. Instead of handing out white hankies and tissues, the women leaders of this conference would have been better leaders to instruct the women to quietly within their hearts surrender to God’s commandments that apply to all of mankind and especially to women. Encouraging women to fly white hankies in the air, only reinforces instability of their emotions. Giving them tissues only reminds the women that no one expects them to control their emotions. Holding hands? Is that suppose to give them a sense of support from one another? How about telling them to pray for the person to the right and left of each other instead? That would certainly give me more confidence that my sister in Christ was supporting me. Why is it that it’s ok for women to use such silly measures to try to achieve concrete learning of very important subjects. This reminded me of a Weight Watchers meeting where women get together and cry about how fat they are and they all huge one another and they all get an emotional high which is suppose to carry them through the rest of the week. There’s nothing wrong with crying but do it in your prayer closet with a sincere heart before God. Getting the crowd all “worked” up and crying has only accomplished one thing…working up emotions instead of convicting the heart for a change. Perhaps I’m being too harsh, but I think the same rules for controlling one’s emotions apply to both men and women. Sounds like the content was excellent, but they certainly could have left all the drama at home. I’m glad I didn’t go to this convention because of all the silliness brought to it, but would like a CD of the info that was given. Can you imagine R.C. Sproul’s convention trying to work up this type of silly emotional display? It would ruin the whole convention. I’ll go to his conventions instead.
I LOVED the live blogging. I felt much more engaged while listening to the live feed. I thought it was better than being there (almost anyways…) How else do you get to sit on your own comfy sofa while listening to amazing teaching live AND participate in fun discussion where you can laugh loudly and nobody is distracted by it? Tim, you were insightful, humorous and diplomatic when you had to be. It was awesome!
Tim,Glad you’re home safely… An extra 3 hours with the family is indeed a blessing! The live blogging was great fun. Thanks!
Sarah,Prayerfully, I can’t say that I would expect an all female conference to look or feel anything like a mixed gender conference or even an all male conference. Yes, the hankies/flags were different. Did they lessen the value of the experience? Only the attendees can really decide this. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, I’m a 54 year old Dad of two great kids. I’ve been an adult through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I’ve seen first-hand how extreme feminism has not only devalued the men of our culture, but perhaps has also setup today’s younger women to expect a less emotional woman to be preferable or even the morn. Now, whether or not the use of hankies cost the conference any sincerity or devotional merit, I’ll refer you to an overly verbos comment I made to another gentle woman who had the same concern. Click here…Perhaps I’m simply out of my league here and I’m missing the point completely. However, I would be careful judging a women’s conference by contrasting it with a men’s conference. As a young woman, you might be better served by choosing a much higher standard as a point of reference… ;—)
In Christ,
Dan…
I had the privilege of attending the True Woman conference, and it was a wonderful, Christ-centered time. The main conference speakers were on-target and not ‘fluffy’ at all—the overarching theme of the weekend was God’s sovereignty and our rightful submission to Him. Were the hankies corny? Well, I’ll just say that I didn’t feel comfortable/compelled to wave mine. But it is a nice symbol, I think, and I certainly don’t judge or ridicule the women who were moved to demonstrate outwardly God’s working in their hearts in this way, and I think the superior tone of some of the commenters here (on the posts about the conference) is quite disappointing. I can’t help but say that the lady who talked about women being ‘silly with their emotions’ is making a pretty sweeping statement. Of course women are wrong to be ruled by them, but they are the way we are ‘wired’ to some degree or another, and to hammer displays of emotion is quite wrong, in my opinion, because who knows-but God- what is going on in each person’s heart? We were encouraged to hold hands a couple of times, and it was actually in conjunction with praying for the people on either side. It was entirely appropriate and caused me to consider the unity in Christ that I had with the stranger to my left. I just wanted to share my thoughts as an attendee in response to some of the (unfounded) negativity I have been surprised to find here. Tim, I was hoping to spot you, but only saw the sea of women. Didn’t know you were hiding behind the magic curtain, Oz. :)
Dan,you seem to confuse me with Laurie. She argues against white hankies use from an unfounded Biblical stance. She confuses the meaning of the text to which she points. She has a much harder road to travel than I have. I argue against the white hankie use for a different reason and not because it rivals against the text to which Laurie points nor the regulative principle of worship that might have passed the newly reformed thinker’s mind (the conference was hardly the prescribed Biblical worship service). They might have prayed, they might have sang, and they might have spoken of Biblical things. Those things alone do not make a Biblical worship service. Therefore, the white hankie could not be banned from this convention on grounds of the text that Laurie used nor on the grounds of the regulative principle of worship. I ban the white hankie use, the tissue use, the holding of hands, etc on the mere ground of self control. It is not feminism that has birth the concept of self control. Our female ancestors of faith were quite equipped with self control and did not flaunt their emotions about. No, sir, you are quite wrong concerning feminism just as you are quite wrong concerning your idea of me being young. Feminism demands just the opposite. Spewing out one’s emotions is a self-centered act. It demands attention to one’s self no matter what the emotion might be. Be it crying which could represent repentance/piety or be it loud, demanding speech which could represent dominance, the one spewing the emotion demands attention to one’s self as do all feminists. Men joke at such weak constitutional displays of emotion on the sidelines with each other all the while indulging the stupefied woman to act out her weak nature. That is why you hear such comments as, “I’m (I’m being a man) going to a woman’s conference…don’t laugh at me.” or “The men had a back row in which to sit”. I don’t blame Tim for making these types of self-defense comments. I too would have made such comments and I’m a woman. I would want to distance myself from such silly behavior and let my audience know that I was there merely to glean information.
Hi Sarah,I attended the conference and it was a wonderful time spent with my Lord and Savior as He renewed my heart for Him and His purpose for my life in Him as a woman. One of the main themes expresssed was the God designed differences between men and woman. Feminism wants us to all be the same. We are not. Woman are generally more demonstrative with their emotions but does that have to mean that’s because we are ruled by them and have no self control? If as a woman I am expressive and animated do I have no self control? When a man cheers because his team scores a touchdown does he have no self control? When is it appropriate to show our emotions if not when Jesus is ministering to the deepest need of my heart?
One of the joys of being a woman is that it is more accepted for me to show my emotion. I can’t imagine not showing emotion to my wonderful husband (I’m thrilled my kids see it). I can’t imagine not showing my emotions to my kids. It is a gift, not a curse. I can still have the gentle and quiet spirit , be self-controlled and still show emotion.
I understand not being ruled by my emotions. That would be self-centered but showing emotion over what God is doing in my heart is not wrong! I loved the hankies, ( if even for just what it represented) the hand holding and I really needed the tissues! Maybe it’s not everyones thing but why does it have to be judged? I’m so glad it wasn’t exactly like a mens conference. The conference was dealing with issues that are unique to woman. It was not supposed to look like an R.C. Sproul convention. But it sure did have deep, meaningful and profound Biblical teaching, especially to some women who have never heard this before. I am a changed woman. There was alot of emotion happening in my house as I confessed my many sins against my husband to him, the lies of the culture I have believed that have been exposed and I no longer want to engage in and disrespect and dishonor my husband or my God with. He showed his emotions…and I hold him up as a True Godly Man!
Aren’t your attitudes about emotions based on American stoicism more than Biblical teaching? Strong’s has almost 100 entries for weep( weeps, weeping, etc.) and about 40 for laugh (laughter,etc.). David has no problem expressing his emotions in the book of Psalms. Even Jesus wept. Ecclesiastes 3:4 says there is a time to weep and a time to laugh. Does the Bible say there is a time to hide your emotions?
I believe the chief end of stoicism is to portray moralistic character by stifling all emotions. It is a type of corrupt self control and its end is deadly, whereas, self control acknowledges that one does have emotions (which BTW I agree are gifts from God) but allows for their existence in an appropriate manner. Stoicism came from the Greeks who were more interested in philosophy and moralistic behavior than that of a changed nature. I am not advocating any such thing. Why must we ride the pendulum’s swing? In running from feminism, must we run to known womanly weaknesses? I don’t blame the female crowd as I do the female leaders of this conference. Handing out tissues let this crowd know they were in for a “tear jerker”. Handing out white hankies cheapens the value of true surrendering of the heart. These things place within the minds of the listener a preconceived idea of how to respond to the speaker even before they even hear the speakers. This is all done unconsciously by both the crowd and leaders I’m quite sure. However, as we all know, people are more easily moved into a certain direction of thinking and believing and coerced to that direction when you appeal to their emotions especially women. Why not forego the hankies, tissues, etc and instead give substantiated facts which indeed change one’s thinking to resolve? You might sway a crowd to your line of thinking when appealing to the emotions, and these emotions might carry that person for sometime in the line of thinking you want them to go, but after some time, after some of life’s difficulties which are bound to plunder the emotions along with the effects the leaders conjured up, you will discover a change in that person’s mood or emotions which leads them back to where they first started. In essence, they might know the truth but it did not penetrate the heart unto a change because what penetrated the heart was emotion which felt like a change of heart and not truth itself. Emotion can be a great deceiver and when left unchecked, when not adequately controlled by the person who holds them, they can mimic any change you like. I.E. encouraging the act of crying can deceive the crier they are truly repentant of a certain act. Why not horrify them of their act, show them their need for change, and give them the only One who can change them? Yes, they might have streams of tears after they see the horridness of their sin, but their tears are silent to themselves only, not contrived or elicited by their leaders. These tears are come from a strong and tender-hearted woman who is led around by her nose of emotions by others. Flying hankies will never settle one’s heart on the subject of surrender as will a determination in one’s heart to elicit from God that unshakable and lasting change which weather’s the up’s and down’s of life. This might seem very trival and why not allow people their way, but how can you demand self control of others emotions in one place (church service) when they haven’t been practicing that self control in all other places.
I meant: These tears are come from a strong and tender-hearted woman who is “not” led around by her nose of emotions by others. and I meant “trivial”
Sarah,You said:”Handing out tissues let this crowd know they were in for a “tear jerker”.”
Did you attend the conference? I did. The handkerchiefs were not meant necessarily for tears. Nancy DeMoss said that they were to be used as a ‘white flag” of surrender. I guess a handkerchief was the closest thing they could think of. And I did see her point. I took it in no way that it mean that this was going to be a tear jerker conference.
I loved the conference. God moved in many hearts. In my own and in many others. Only God alone will know if women were sincere about their heart surrender- but let’s not be critical and judgemental. Nancy DeMoss is a true woman of God and John Piper is a wonderful man of God. I trust that they know what they’re doing.
Sometimes it seems in Christendom- you can’t do anything right. Everyone is so critical of everything. It makes one afraid of doing or saying the slightest thing wrong for fear of being criticized. It really breaks my heart. I feel sorry for the next generation who are going to think they have to be and say everything perfectly.
Thank you, Tim for your coverage of the TW conference. I hope many people were blessed by it!
Shannon,I feel your pain that my comments have produced in you and for that I am sorry. I believe you when you say that God has done a work in your heart and I am glad for you…truly I am. However, have you taken the time to read all of Tim’s live blogging entries and his commenters? Have you not notice that the very thing you hold dear and prudent and necessary…those things which you defend against me are being “good heartily” made fun of here on this site? The verbal content is not because it is of importance, but all the drama is by both men and women. This should concern you not on a personal level for when others jest against us it matters little. However, it should concern you because it devalues the content of the message. Had all the unnecessary drama been left out of this woman’s conference, then all would have been taken seriously and a greater learning by those outside the building would have taken place. Which is more important the content or the drama. I know your answer of course. “Sometimes it seems in Christendom- you can’t do anything right” ….I have good news for you. You can’t do anything right only Christ through you can you do right. So chin up and strength your weary bones.
Proverbs 3110 An excellent wife who can find?She is far more precious than jewels.11The heart of her husband trusts in her,and he will have no lack of gain.12She does him good, and not harm,all the days of her life.13She seeks wool and flax,and works with willing hands.14She is like the ships of the merchant;she brings her food from afar.15She rises while it is yet nightand provides food for her householdand portions for her maidens.16She considers a field and buys it;with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.17She dresses herself with strengthand makes her arms strong.18She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.Her lamp does not go out at night.19She puts her hands to the distaff,and her hands hold the spindle.20She opens her hand to the poorand reaches out her hands to the needy.21She is not afraid of snow for her household,for all her household are clothed in scarlet.22She makes bed coverings for herself;her clothing is fine linen and purple.23Her husband is known in the gateswhen he sits among the elders of the land.24She makes linen garments and sells them;she delivers sashes to the merchant.25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,and she laughs at the time to come.26She opens her mouth with wisdom,and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.27She looks well to the ways of her householdand does not eat the bread of idleness.28Her children rise up and call her blessed;her husband also, and he praises her:29”Many women have done excellently,but you surpass them all.”30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.31Give her of the fruit of her hands,and let her works praise her in the gates.
Now there’s a true woman! Full of strength, wisdom, virtue, and tenderheartedness she is!
I thought I posted a comment, but can’t find it here.
I saw you at the conference and was in a conversation so my thought was…There is Tim Challies….but then I didn’t see you again.
I wanted to thank you personally for your blog! So thank you!
It’s fun to go back and read your entries from TW. What an amazing weekend.
Heather
Sarah,Thank you for your comments. They were wise, dignified, and well-thought out. This is the kind of femininity we need to see more of.
I am also going to step in to defend the hankies and tissues.
Personally I think that waving the hankies can be a very meaningful thing, but it won’t be for everyone. I don’t see myself getting excited about waving it in the crowd, as though it were some massive training class for Vestal Goodman impersonators. It is useful because it is tangible and can be taken home. Long after the conference lights have dimmed and the bags are unpacked, the hankie will serve as a reminder of surrender to Jesus. A woman can choose to wave her flag of surrender in her private time with God or carry it in her purse, wrapped around the checkbook or credit card. Maybe it can be hung by the television or on the refrigerator door or placed in the car. Where are we tempted? Place your hankie where you can see it.
As far as using them in a corporate setting, letting it say publicly that you are going to surrender this aspect of your life, I see no evil inherent in that. Consider head coverings. I have some friends who still practice head coverings for women, and one of them wrote a wonderful piece on what it means to her. To her it is a way of showing her submission to Christ in a biblical manner. Most of us have written off head coverings as something “cultural”, and I daresay that many more people would have been in uproar if they handed out head coverings to wear instead of hankies to wave, although the head coverings would be more biblical. Dedication to living a godly life should be public, and to this woman who grew up in a very conservative church where you just didn’t raise your hands, if you’re going to tell someone to raise their hands in submission you might as well give them the hankie, too.
I think it is very sad when we tell anyone, man or woman, that they cannot cry. Corporate worship isn’t about plastic smiles. I think the greater shame is that we try to tell people when it is and is not okay to be broken. Last week I attended a communion service at my church. As I prayed before taking the elements, I cried. I made no noise, but there were tears. Did anyone notice? I don’t care. The reason is that I am coming out of a year spent placing myself over God, and considering who I am and what God has done for me, I was contrite. On either side of the church is a prayer rail, and there was a box of tissues provided by the church there at the rail. It was empty by the time I got to it, and I am pleased to say that it was empty because a man, yes, you read that right, a man from the congregation had taken one to wipe away his tears. True men and true women have emotional responses to God. Providing tissues is foresight, not an invitation to get carried away with empty emotionalism.
There are a few things that I have learned in my life thus far. One is that my surrender to God is never complete unless I am willing to let my body respond. Sometimes that means kneeling and sometimes that means crying. I can’t surrender to God if I am worrying about what someone else will think or judging what the people around me are doing. I am afraid that what some would call self control is in reality an attempt to dictate to themselves and others what an appropriate response to God is, or perhaps projecting their own comfort zone as what is appropriate. Remember that David danced before the Lord, publicly, and his wife was waiting for him so that she could condemn him for not showing self control in public. Who is it that glorified God most? The one who was concerned with her own idea of propriety or the one who was willing to show his emotion?
Luke 18:9- 149 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 “The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 “I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Jesus is condemning the proud, but He is also saying that the man who was broken to the point of beating his breast in public is justified. I don’t call proponents of self control Pharisees, as I tend to be very reserved myself (trust me when I say that crying in church was out of the ordinary). The Bible tends to speak favorably of sincere emotional expression, so who am I to condemn it?
I was one of the speakers at the True Woman Conference last weekend. it’s always interesting to read the perceptions of those who attended compared to those who witnessed the event from afar. I’ve posted a blog on my site outlining my take on the event and on what to make of all those white hankies…www.marykassian.com
Hello Mary,
I watched the conference via live streaming and enjoyed your brief presentation about feminism’s history and plug for real womanhood being found through identity in Christ. The music and pictures that you were a great supplement to the message. Earlier this year, I was exposed to your ideas through Revive Our Hearts and I sleuthed down your books and read them. They have been life changing! I think that many women today do not even know that there is an alternative to the feminist culture in which we live. They think feminism is to be heralded as some great thing (if they think about it at all), whereas it actually degrades women and ultimately, men as well.
Thanks!
Michaela
About hankies and openly showing emotions (and holding hands): the hankies were just an object lesson (yes, true surrender comes from deep within the heart) and crying openly - well, if you can’t cry amongst a group of like minded Christian women, then where can you cry.
My guess is that not all women attending this conference were on the same level spiritually or emotionally - so you can’t expect the same behaviour from them. Some of them maybe really have needed to fly that hanky as a first step. Doing the action as a group may precipitate the real thing while alone in prayer!
Crying can be a much needed release of pent up emotions. For whatever reason, sometimes, people do not give themselves permission to show emotions and that’s how it all (anger, hurt, fear, anxiety etc) ends up coming out - in tears. Sometimes, crying is a form of self-pity - and that needs to be directed in a different way. Yes, crying in your prayer closet is probably the best way, but sometimes you have to start somewhere.
With regards to holding hands as a way of showing support - everyone is different. For some people touch is a primary way of feeling loved and supported (see The five love languages by Gary Chapman) . Ideally, this should come from one’s spouse or some good friends. However, for some people it does not come at all - and they may have really appreciated it during the conference.
Yes, of course, praying for one another is the best way to show support and they did this too (I think!).
Let’s stop criticizing each other as women…it just isolates us from each other and from Christ. And, then we feel like we have to defend ourselves for actions to others.
Obviously, you are a strong woman in Christ, Sarah, and have much to give! Why not use your resources to help women get beyond their weaknesses rather than separating yourself from them! We all need you.
None of us has arrived, yet!!
Jesus Christ wept at the tomb of His friend Lazarus, with sorrow over the loss of His friend.
While in the Garden of Gethsemane, Scripture states that Jesus’ soul was “exceeding sorrowful” as He struggled to accept the impending walk to the Cross for us all. He sees His closest disciples sound asleep and notices that they could not spend an hour in prayer with Him.
I believe that part of the agenda of this first “true woman” conference was to take a stand against the feminist movement which held the first national women’s liberation conference in Lake Villa (north of Chicago), IL in 1968. Since then, untold women’s lives have been adversely affected, some destroyed, by their adherence to the women’s movement and many, many children have not seen the light of day from their mother’s bodies but were aborted instead.
In truth, the women who attended this packed-out conference last weekend could have cried and travailed in prayer for the duration of the ENTIRE conference for the lost generations and the repercussions that they saw possibly in their own lives or in those around them, and certainly in our society, as a result of the women’s movement.
“Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the the streets of the city. What thing shall I take to witness for thee? What thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?”Lamentations 2:11 and 13
Christ is the only one who has to the power to heal to the depth that is required in an individual.