- RSS FeedSubscribe
- « Previous PostEscaping Anonymity
- Next Post »A La Carte (4/27)
Eternity Without a Mediator
- 04/26/09
- 24
In his little book Fear Not!, an examination of death and the afterlife from a Christian perspective, Ligon Duncan writes about the horrors of hell. Having done so, he offers a final reflection on the ultimate difference between heaven and hell. And, though I’ve read extensively, I do not recall ever hearing someone express it quite like this. These are words that are worthy of some reflection. Though he has already discussed hell, there is one more thing he wishes to say.
*****
It is a surprising thing to note, because so often we speak of hell as a place where God is not. Let me, however, say something provocative. Hell is eternity in the presence of God without a mediator. Heaven is eternity in the presence of God, with a mediator. Hell is eternity in the presence of God, being fully conscious of the just, holy, righteous, good, kind, and loving Father’s disapproval of your rebellion and wickedness. Heaven, on the other hand, is dwelling in the conscious awareness of your holy and righteous Father, but doing so through a mediator who died in your place, the One who absorbed the fullness of the penalty of your sin. Heaven is eternity in the presence of God with the One who totally eradicated sin from your life, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hell is eternity in the presence of God without a mediator. Heaven is eternity in the presence of God with a mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
Releasing on April 1, The Next
Published in 2008, this book
This is a guide that calls men,
This review of the bestselling
New to the site? You can get
This is a guide written
Comments (24)
Off-Topic
Hi, I wonder if anyone here can point me to a good response to the arguments of Karen Armstrong’s ‘A History of God’? Needed for a conversation with unbeliever.
Thanks
Henry
Great words. I think it is sobering and Biblical to emphasize God’s judgment and just nature when thinking about hell.
I believe that this was a well known observation of Scottish Free Church Theologian R. A. Finlayson.
Thanks for this. To jump off this, our pastor said today that those who are out of Christ will be eternally pierced for their transgressions and crushed for their iniquities.
I respect Ligon tremendously and have learned much from him. Indeed that is a provocative statement. Having not read the book, I wonder what scripture references he uses to make this point.
I think I understand what he is saying, in that hell is God’s judgment on sinners and so to be in hell is to experience God’s wrath. In other words, you can’t experience something about God unless God is present. Not only that, but God is everywhere.
How do we reconcile these two ideas?
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Josh,
If “Lord” in the 2Thes passage refers to Christ, as I think it does, then these are reconciled by Duncan’s passage — Christ as part of the godhead may be present, but the damned will not experience His mediating presence but only the full brunt of His holiness.
Heflin is exactly right. The orginal quote and idea come directly from R.A. Finlayson. Hope there’s a footnote to that effect! If not, we’ll fix that in the next edition.
Interesting.
Reading and Teaching in Deut 27. God has Israel mark down His Words, Consecrate themselves - acknowledging their sinfulness - and pass between mountains of blessing and curses.
Upon entering God’s Kingdom - they all acknowledge that they would be cursed if they did not commit to God’s Word and His Way of mediation.
Seems consistent.
And a little different than the ‘message’ many contemporary churches give - emphasizing blessing without curses.
To dwell on lost opportunity for mediation and absence of all goodness would be torment indeed. If God is the author of Life, does He allow them to persist in this state forever? or is there a second (spiritual) death?
Hey, great post, very thought provoking. Reminds me of an excerpt in The Screwtape Letters, when Screwtape explains that Hell is a place of heightened clarity. Reality is realized so much easier in hell than it is here on earth where our mind are clouded by delusional thinking. As you say, our unholiness becomes abundantly clear in the presence of a holy God, and who can stand before him with no mediator?
I still see hell as a place without God.
With reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:9, a number of years ago, I remember being struck by the fact that in the KJV this reads, “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” - point being that the word “away” is not there. This seems to me to change the thrust of the verse in such a way as to be more consistent with the point Ligon is making. A number of other translations appear to concur, which makes me wonder why “away” is there in NASB, which is what I am most familiar with. Sometimes NASB will italicize words that are not strictly in the original, but which I think the translators believed were implied by the Greek, but that’s not the case here - an English reader would assume the “away” notion was clearly in the original. If so, why do the others differ? Can those with Greek expertise (which I do not possess) shed any light on this?
Sorry, I meant 2 Thess 1:9 (not 2:9)…..
This is consistent with what I’ve understood about hell. The following verse is the main reason why…given that I am reading it correctly. It seems to imply rather plainly that God is present in hell. If He is not in hell…then He’s not omnipresent. Right? Isn’t that a fundamental attribute of God?
“Where can I go from Your Spirit?Or where can I flee from Your presence?If I ascend to heaven, You are there;If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.”~ Psalm 139:7-8
I’m not sure I entirely agree. When speaking of the Scripture verse Psalm 139:7-8, I’ve always understood that Sheol is not Hell. And isn’t there a difference between the temporary hell and heaven, and the eternal hell, and eternal new heaven and new earth? Where reprobate souls go when they die now is a temporary hell - where I imagine God’s wrath and presence is very real. But, after the final judgment when everything is final, and Satan and his demons are thrown into the lake of fire, and all lost souls are eternally damned, and all the elect are with God enjoying His presence on the new earth/heaven, why would God be present in that hell? I still think that hell then would be the very absence of God - yes, they’ll have much more clarity for sure! But they’ll know WHAT they’re missing and be all alone with no hope. I wonder what you think of Mr. Randy Alcorn’s view of heaven and hell?
I see where Duncan is coming from and agree wholeheartedly.
I haven’t read the book; neither have I had adequate time to meditate on this to speak with certainty. But I’ve just been pouring over various treatments of this subject and the proof texts; and I would say that the concept of God actively participating in the fulfillment of this aspect of His Word and the demonstration of the attributes of HIs holiness, justice, and wrath would seem to be in keeping with His character.
I should add, “for eternity,” to my above comment—actively participating for eternity.
Delerben, if hell is “a place without God,” who is doing the punishing?
Gehenna, Hell, Hades, Sheol, Lake of Fire. Anyone know the distinctions?And what about in Revelation where the Lake of Fire is prepared for the devil and his angels? First, does this mean Hell and the Lake of Fire are the same, or is this a separate place? And second, is this where some get their doctrine of no one will ultimately be in Hell (except the devil and his angels)?
Not sure who an ‘unmediated God’ would be. The doctrine of the trinity means that the living God is always and eternally a mediated God. He is always the Father by the Son in the Spirit.Also Rev 14:10! There He is expressly called the Lamb and He’s presiding
Glen, what do you mean by “eternally a mediated God”? The whole point of hell is punishment, i.e. the pouring out of God’s wrath. Are you saying that Christ is mediating for those in hell? The Lamb is not seen in the role of mediator in Rev. 14:10, so I’m not sure I follow your point.
Hi Lee,The Lord Jesus has always and will always mediate the work of the Father (1 Cor 8:6). Ths expressly includes judgement (John 5:22,27). Within Revelation this is taught repeatedly. Rev 1:18 - Christ is hell’s jailor, holding the keys of death and hades. Rev 6:16-17 - the wrath of the Lamb. Rev 14:10 - the presence of the Lamb.
Jesus - the Lamb, the Crucified One - mediates the wrath of the Father by the Spirit. In this sense He acts as Mediator into eternity.
It might seem a picky point, but I just find the idea of an ‘unmediated God’ an unhelpful phrase and one that might prompt some fairly unitarian conceptions of God.
This reminds me of the Israelites’ encounter with God on Mt. Sinai. His holiness was so terrifying that they begged Moses to be their mediator (Ex. 19:18-19). Later, God said they had spoken well in their request (Deut. 18:17). Then, God said He would send an even greater mediator/prophet to bring His words to man (Deut. 18:18). It’s almost as if Sinai, with all its terrifying thunder, lightning, earthquakes, fire, smoke, and ear-piercing trumpets, give us a glimpse of hell without a mediator. Praise God that there is one qualified mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5)!
Nicole, as you mentioned, I’ve also heard that “sheol” does not refer to the second death and I have no reason to disagree with that since one can observe how the word is used in other contexts.
But in Psalm 139, it seems that the poetry is drawing a contrast between heaven and “not heaven”. We all know that there are only two destinations to note. It seems like gehenna/hell is implied here by means of the typical contrasts of Hebrew poetry.
But again: If God is not present in hell, then He’s not omnipresent. If God is not omnipresent, then He is not God, right?
Unfortunately, I haven’t read much of Mr. Alcorn’s writings. But I’m certainly interested in doing so some day. I’ve heard that he has a lot of profitable insight.