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WorshipGod06 - Reflections
- 08/15/06
- 54
It was a great thrill for me to spend several days of the last week among the men and women of Sovereign Grace Ministries and Covenant Life Church at the WorshipGod06 Conference. Being among these people was an opportunity for me to learn a great deal about worship and to learn how other believers express their worship to God. Sovereign Grace Ministries is often described as being “Reformed Charismatic” but it seems that this may be too simplistic a description. There is far more to this organization than Reformed soteriology and Charismatic expressions of worship.
I know quite a few people are waiting to hear some reflections on this event, so I thought I would offer those today. I offer them as an outsider, one who has worshipped in many different contexts, but never in one quite like this. I will focus on observations on the use of the spiritual gifts as I witnessed them at the conference. It is worth nothing that, with over half of the attendees belonging to churches other than Sovereign Grace churches, many people present were not charismatic in their understanding of the continuing gifts. I was grateful to see that Bob Kauflin and other conference “officials” were careful to be respectful towards the cessationists present and to be deliberate in proving their own credibility as believers and believers who dearly love the Lord and serve under His Lordship and under the authority of Scripture. While many charismatics have gained the reputation of being a group that allows spiritual gifts to supersede Scripture, Sovereign Grace clearly showed itself to be a ministry that places Scripture in its rightful place above and beyond all gifts. In speaking to others after the conference, I was not able to find any, even among the strictest cessationists, who was offended by seeing the continuing gifts being practiced. This speaks of the humility and grace of the organizers of this conference who were deliberately cautious and respectful towards others.
Before I begin, let me make one point clear. While this did not come from Bob Kauflin or from others who stood in front of the assembly, I heard a few statements such as “cessationists do not believe in the spiritual gifts.” This is not strictly true, for cessationists do believe in the spiritual gifts. They are, after all, explicitly and undeniably mentioned in the Bible. Cessationists believe that spiritual gifts are given to all believers and are operational even today. Most would affirm that these gifts should be eagerly identified and sought after. Most would also affirm that the various lists of gifts in Scripture is not exhaustive but points instead towards a great abundance of gifts. Where cessationists differ from continuationists is in their understanding of the miraculous gifts which are generally identified as prophecy, speaking in tongues and working of miracles. Cessationists believe that these gifts were given for a specific purpose at a specific time and that they ceased with the close of the Apostolic era. Thus, while cessationists affirm the spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues, speaking prophecies and working miracles, they do not believe these gifts to be operational today. My purpose here is not to argue the case, but merely to summarize the belief, so let’s not turn this into an argument on this matter!
So let’s look at how these miraculous gifts manifested themselves at the conference.
While charismatics may be best-known for using the gift of tongues, I did not witness any use of this gift at the conference. Craig Cabannis, one of the speakers at the conference, explained Sovereign Grace Ministries’ perspective on this gift. It can only be used in a public setting when it is deemed appropriate, when a person is available who has the gift of interpretation, and when this person feels that he has an interpretation for this particular utterance. From what I understand, it is quite rare that this happens, and so this gift is seen only sparingly within Sovereign Grace churches. And as I mentioned, I did not witness it last week.
While there may not have been any public uses of the gift of tongues, there were a great deal of prophetic utterances, both in the main sessions and in seminars. If a person felt that he had a prophetic utterance to share with the assembly, he would make his way to the front where a pastor or elder sat with a microphone. The person would share the prophecy with this person who would make a determination whether it seemed genuine and whether it was appropriate to share with the assembly. If he felt it should be heard, he would signal the worship leader who would find an opportunity to allow the person to speak. These utterances were often spoken in the first person. They were sometimes words from the Lord and at others times were images or encouragements. At one point Bob Kauflin mentioned that prophecies were not allowed to include words about dates, mates, correction or direction.
I do believe this was the first time I had witnessed this type of prophecy and made at least one observation. As has often been said by cessationists, this prophecy bore little resemblance to the prophecies of Scripture. There was a humility or even hesitancy in speaking these prophecies which were often preceded by phrases such as “I feel God is saying” or “What I think this means is.” The “thus saith the Lord” statements that typify biblical prophecy were noticeably absent. I suppose this shows what many continuationists insist: that prophecy in our day is different from biblical prophecy in that a person may err in his understanding of a prophecy or his delivery of it. The sinful nature of human beings manifests itself even in prophecy. And, of course, as cessationists will observe, this type of prophecy seems absent from Scripture unless we choose to so interpret (or misinterpret) the prophecies of Agabus. Similarly, the hesitancy to provide prophecies related to dates, mates, correction and direction seem to differ from Scripture as well since these are common themes among the prophets described in the Bible.
I heard much about healing at the conference, but was unable to understand how the spiritual gift of healing was in operation. Typically a person would prophecy that God wished to heal people of a particular condition (such as arthritis, migraine, pain in the lower extremities, and so on) and would ask such people to identify themselves. Those who wished to be healed were soon surrounded by men and women who were asked to lay their hands on them and pray for them. There would then be a time of prayer and prophecy. There were two things in particular that struck me about this. First, I could not see how the spiritual gift of healing was used. The gift of prophecy was clearly in operation in identifying illnesses that God wished to heal, but I did not see anyone acting like the Apostles who laid hands on those who were ill (or even just touched them with their shadow) and instantly healed them of a variety of lifelong, debilitating diseases. These were not slow, gradual healings of inner afflictions such as arthritis, but instantaneous, miraculous healings of people whose bodies were immediately and dramatically transformed so that whole towns immediately understood what had happened. So like the gift of prophecy, I had to understand that the gift of healing, as exercised in these circles, is dramatically different than it was in the times of Scripture unless those who laid hands on the sick were self-identified as having the gift of healing. But I don’t think this was the case.
Second, there is nothing distinctly charismatic about the laying on of hands or annointing with oil and thus with most of what was assumed to be a distinctly charismatic event. I have known people from the most conservative wings of Presbyterianism who practice this and who have seen God extend His healing through such means. My aunt was the recipient of such a blessing and was instantly and permanently cured of alcoholism by the means of the pastor and elders at her church laying their hands on her, annointing her with oil, and praying for her. The difference is that in non-charismatic circles, it will generally only be church officials, elders and pastors (in other words, those with spiritual oversight and authority over a person) who would lay hands on another.
Finally, and I apologize if this seems to be rude or sarcastic, but it was something I observed a couple of times, but I found it odd that an organization that so stresses modesty would encourage the laying on of hands. On a couple of occasions I saw women, and young women in particular, indicate that they sought healing. Both women and men would then come to these people and lay their hands on them. These were not men and women who knew them or were elders at their church, but just other people who decided to lay hands on them. I can’t help but think that this would make me uncomfortable if that were my teenage daughter or my wife. When reconciling teaching on modesty and the practice of laying on of hands there seems to be something of a contradiction: “Don’t let your bra strap show through your blouse, but let me put my hand on it!”
So here’s the rub. Charismatics identify and practice three spiritual gifts that are not practiced by cessationists. Of these gifts, one was not in evidence at the conference, one was spoken of but I did not observe it practiced within the context of a spiritual gift, leaving only one that was practiced, but even then with marked differences to biblical descriptions. But through all things I noted a humility and a subjection to the word of God. I saw the leaders demanding that things but done decently and in good order. I saw that, despite differences in our understanding of the continuing gifts, we hold most things in common.
While Sovereign Grace Ministries may always be known as being both a charismatic ministry, it was clear that this was only a small part of how the organization would identify itself. It is primarily an organization that wishes to worship and celebrate the sovereignty of God as shown in His grace towards sinners. It is an organization that seeks to maintain biblical humility and seeks to serve the body of Christ, not just in word but also in deed. I mentioned to a couple of people at the conference that somehow, while sitting in that church and hearing praises rise to God, I felt a sense of home. I don’t quite know how to describe this or what I even really mean by it, but somehow the environment felt so safe and so familiar, even though this was my first time worshipping at a Sovereign Grace event. I was moved, I was stirred and I was challenged. And best of all, I was led to grow in my understanding of God, my appreciation of God, my love for His people and my ability to bring worship to Him.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I worship and serve as a pastor at 
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Comments (54)
Very interesting post. I found myself thinking through the same things after attending SG conferences. Like you, I felt quite at home, and found great love, unity, modesty in evidence. One other interesting distinctive they hold (I found from talking to a member) is that they don’t support foreign mission agencies. They only support the planting of churches within their movement.
JCA, I am glad you felt at home within SG. I would clarify that where missions is concerned, it’s not that SG doesn’t support foreign mission agencies. Rather, they support native organizations ‘on the ground’ in various countries. Many of these organizations cannot be identified because they meet and worship in nations where the church is persecuted. So, while SG would build its missiology around the planting of Sovereign Grace churches, its involvement in missions supercedes this. Dave Harvey has written an excellent booklet called “Missiology” about SG’s approach to missions, which you can find at the SG online bookstore if you so desire. Hope this has served you!
If I may humbly make an observation for thought and discussion.
You make the statement: “The gift of prophecy was clearly in operation in identifying illnesses that God wished to heal, but I did not see anyone acting like the Apostles who laid hands on those who were ill (or even just touched them with their shadow) and instantly healed them of a variety of lifelong, debilitating diseases. These were not slow, gradual healings of inner afflictions such as arthritis, but instantaneous, miraculous healings of people whose bodies were immediately and dramatically transformed so that whole towns immediately understood what had happened. ”
Yet I’m reminded of the passage in Luke which record’s the Lord’s healing of 10 lepers - a healing that was not instantaneous, but apparently gradual, saying that “as they went” they were cleansed.
Luke 17:12-15 (ESV)”And as he entered a village, He was met by ten lepers, who stood at a distance and lifted up their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.” When He saw them He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went they were cleansed. Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice … ”
I don’t claim to be a Bible scholar by any means(!), but I’d like to see what others think.
Blessings on you, Tim, and thank you for your invaluable service to the Body in reporting on the conference!!
TomDoctrine Matters
Very interesting post, Tim.
I really appreciate your ability to keep your affections for SG and the people involved, whom I know you deeply respect and admire, from interfering with your objectivity. On the flip side, being able to love and embrace those whom you may not completely agree is a gift. You do a great job on this blog bringing it all together.
One key point you make is that all things were subject to God’s word. I was invited by a friend to a meeting in which a woman with a healing ministry would be laying hands on those who wanted prayer. God’s word was not heralded. In fact, one of this person’s talking points was the need for Christians to know God by His Spirit, and that the lack of the Spirit was why His word seems so dry to so many. “Have you been baptized in His Spirit?” The implication was that we could be believers and still not have been baptized in the Spirit. The goal was a manifestation of the Spirit (to puff up self, in my opinion) rather than submission to His word.
I look forward to more of your reflections from this conference.
Great post. It gave me a deeper appreciation for their music, which I love, even though I differ with them on some points as well.Thanks.
Tim, this is a great job of summing up the spirit and impressions of this conference. I felt very much at home too, and even a little homesick now for the church there in Gaithersburg! It was a wonderful time, and I came away with many things to savor and mull over. It was great meeting you and Julian and so many other brothers and sisters in Christ. The ministry of Sovereign Grace has made a difference in my life.
Tim,
I can’t believe you didn’t reflect on Gaithersburg’s barbeque establishments. Life changing!
Seriously, thanks for the comments, and big thanks for the ride. I’ll be unpacking my mental bags from this conference for a while.
Thanks for clarifying, Mark. I was hoping I would get an update on that. As an aside, I did get to hear Dave Harvey preach at least once, and really enjoyed his ministry.
Tim, your posts from the week were excellent and I very much appreciate the humble way you reflected on the conference. You set a good example for those of us who remain cessationists and yet appreciate the good work being done by our brethren in Sovereign Grace Ministries. Thanks for making your thoughts public.
Thanks for blessing those of us who didn’t get to go and thanks for being so thoughtful in your reflections. l
Tim, it was good to meet you at the conference on Saturday. I have spent the last few days going over my notes from the conference and reading your event-by-event blogs. Thanks for such a thorough and honest representation.
Some of the criticisms that are directed towards SG practices of sign gifts could be made toward much of the practice of any gifts. How much preaching and teaching is done without a subjective element? Where are the objective, point-by-point criteria for teaching, preaching, giving, administration, showing mercy, etc? Even when it comes to denominations, are they without subjectivity? If you answer “no” to that question, try to getting some PCA/OPC types to dialog objectively with Reformed Baptists/Southern Baptists on baptism.
Tim, thanks again for your thoughts on the conference and for providing a venue for discussion. I look forward to your liveblogs from DG next month.
It’s very interesting to me that you observed the charismatic element to be only a very small part of Sovereign Grace. I’ve been a part of Sovereign Grace for the last 7 years until very recently and I would agree with your assessment. They contribute some great teachings, but I’m not sure the charismatic (miraculous) gifts are their stong suit right now. I’ll be surprised if they are still claiming to be charismatic in 10-20 years, but I hope they are! Thanks for your honest and humble thoughts and descriptions. I wish I could have been there.
In response to Brian: I would guess you are aware of the extensive exegesis and writing by Wayne Grudem on the subject of New Testament prophecy. Dr. Grudem explains that NT and OT prophecy differ, and that there is a subjective element in the NT practice — that’s why it is to be subject to the elders of the church. To defend your position (at least as I can understand it from your email) you would have to say that God never brings to mind, spontaneously, and often in the context of his word and the worship of his people, something specific for that body or an individual in that body. This kind of prophecy, as I understand it, is always to align with God’s word and to be evaluated by the elders first. Though this is not my tradition either, and I therefore am not the best qualified to speak for these brothers, I believe this is the kind of prophecy or “word of knowledge” that was being practiced at the conference. To say it is unbiblical requires more than just saying it doesn’t meet the OT standard. I do also appreciate the comment that there are subjective elements in all of life and ministry. Yes, we must be careful to be biblical and doctrinally sound, but we cannot live a life void of subjective experiences. Who among us has a testimony of the Spirit’s work in our life that has no subjective element? Thanks Brian, and thanks Tim. I too have appreciated following this worship conference on your blog.
For the record, I would just like to say that I have the utmost respect for C.J. Mahaney, Joshua Harris, Bob Kauflin, and all those involved with Sovereign Grace churches.
My love for them and the truth they unashamedly hold to far outweighs any differences of opinion we may have.
I hope and pray they will continue to proclaim the truth of our Sovereign Lord. If only the rest of the visible church would follow their lead in focusing on the cross of Christ and His work of sovereign grace on our behalf, we might see a revival sweep our churches, and in the world.
Deepest apologies for the lack of grace in my previous comments.
Brian
Tim . . .
I, too, wish to publically thank you for the excellent manner in which you presented each live-blog for the benefit of your readers. It is obvious from the comments above that the love you have for all of your brothers and sisters in Christ, and your humble spirit, have now been mirrored in the gracious comments of your readers. This has not only been an encouragement to those of us who long for an end to strife among Christians who differ, but is evidence of how, as each of us submits to the Holy Spirit, He uses us (and in this case, you) to glorify the Savior and shed abroad the love of God in our hearts. This particular post and its accompanying comments is evidence of the Holy Spirit in action. May the Lord continue to bless your efforts on our behalf. I, too, am anxiously awaiting your thoughts and reflections on the Desiring God Conference!
Thoughts while reading your post:
Sovereign Grace clearly showed itself to be a ministry that places Scripture in its rightful place above and beyond all gifts.
Yet at a sermon given by Kauflin not two weeks ago at their church, he gives the impression (no pun intended) that they put prophetic word more “on par with” than “superceded by” Scripture.
“Where cessationists differ from continuationists is in their understanding of the miraculous gifts which are generally identified as prophecy, speaking in tongues and working of miracles.”
Well, that and a vast difference in what exactly “tongues” is, as well as what exactly “prophecy” is and how it and its speaker can be verified (oh gee, they can’t).
“These utterances were often spoken in the first person. They were sometimes words from the Lord and at others times were images or encouragements. At one point Bob Kauflin mentioned that prophecies were not allowed to include words about dates, mates, correction or direction.”
Yeah that’s garbage. First of all, who is he to place limits on what can be said if it is of the Lord as they claim. Second, speaking from emotion and feeling hardly makes it prophecy. If anything it is most likely to be personal commentary that is then elevated in status by claiming it is “prophetic”. Just because it involves a verse or passage of Scripture doesn’t make it “prophetic”. If that’s the case then every Bible commentary ever written is “prophetic”. Talk about mis-using that term…
“And, of course, as cessationists will observe, this type of prophecy seems absent from Scripture unless we choose to so interpret (or misinterpret) the prophecies of Agabus. Similarly, the hesitancy to provide prophecies related to dates, mates, correction and direction seem to differ from Scripture as well since these are common themes among the prophets described in the Bible.”
Exactly. Stay away from people involving themselves in error, which is what it comes down to. God’s Word is very black & white - didactic - yet today Charismatics (liberals) want things to be in degrees - dialogue.
I believe God protects those who don’t know any better, but when you do know better, it’s time to move on, especially since as they say many times during their Church Membership classes, “we aren’t going to change, don’t try to change us, if you don’t agree with what we do, find another church” (in so many words, often wrapped in faux sweetness). So you want to be liberal in your interpretation of Scripture, allowance for error, and practice of such things? Then that can’t possibly be the place for folks who espouse a more consistently contextual-literal interpretation of scripture and conservative view of things.
“Those who wished to be healed were soon surrounded by men and women who were asked to lay their hands on them and pray for them.”
1 Timothy 5:22”Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure.“‘nuff said.
“But through all things I noted a humility and a subjection to the word of God.”
Bro, one can be as humble as ever yet still be in error.
“I saw that, despite differences in our understanding of the continuing gifts, we hold most things in common.”
I can hold most things in common with a communist. We’re both human, we both speak English, we both live in the same town, we both work similar jobs, yet we differ greatly on political system.
“I found it odd that an organization that so stresses modesty would encourage the laying on of hands.”
Yeah well for a church that supposedly stresses modesty, they certainly allow immodestly dressed folks to attend their services. There IS a contradiction there, for either you hold to a modest dress code or you don’t. They talk about one as though they do, but they don’t hold to it.
FWIW, the Bible even warns against those who seek after experiences and signs & wonders, as well as how they will become prominent in the deceptions of the end times. Meanwhile Sovereign Grace doesn’t ever preach on the end times, doesn’t prepare its flock for the coming times of difficulty, and most likely espouses an amillenialist doctrine, though it is hard to tell because conflicting stories come from different folks there. Some claim they don’t have an eschatology (not sure how that’s possible if you’re an educated American Christian who has the freedom and time to read and study the Word and access to every commentary and preacher out there), while others claim they explicitly don’t agree with dispensational teaching, pre-tribulation rapture, or premillenialism. Okay, so what’s left then? The timing of the rapture is neither here nor there, but which millenialism do you espouse? And what of Israel? Do you simply ignore passages like Romans 11? Talk about missing one of the greatest Biblical examples of God’s steadfast love and faithfulness - that He keeps his eternal promises and will return to save chosen/elect among Israel in the end, despite their iniquity and disobedience, just as He has for the gentiles during the Church age.
This is why I still can’t fathom why MacArthur is involving himself with CJ Mahaney. As if the Charismatic issue wasn’t big enough, there is also the lack of eschatology mentioned earlier, and the watered down gospel that talks little if at all about a holy God’s righteous wrath and man’s sin - the very first and key part of understanding one’s need for a Savior. Without that understanding and conviction, how can one be saved?
The interesting thing is how each of these errors can be traced back to failing to take the Bible in a more consistently contextual-literal interpretation - something MacArthur espouses vigorously yet is explicitly absent in a church or organization that decides to take many passages of Scripture “figuratively”, which must include vast swaths of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and just about all of Revelation. If that’s all figurative, then what about Genesis? The creation, the flood, why those could be figurative too! Then you go read a book like The Battle for the Beginning (MacArthur) and you understand just how dangerous it can be to the very gospel claimed to be so highly held, to allow any passage of Scripture to be taken as less than the literal Word of God, and interpreted in anything other than a contextual-literal approach.
This is why I still can’t fathom why MacArthur is involving himself with CJ Mahaney. As if the Charismatic issue wasn’t big enough, there is also the lack of eschatology mentioned earlier, and the watered down gospel that talks little if at all about a holy God’s righteous wrath and man’s sin - the very first and key part of understanding one’s need for a Savior. Without that understanding and conviction, how can one be saved?
So what I understand you’re saying is that while you don’t doubt the salvation of Mahaney and those leading Sovereign Grace, you are curious as to why they do not then present a complete gospel in their own church at Covenant Life? That is interesting, if true. It is true that there are many other (“another” gospel) gospels out there that preach only love and grace. Is this fault true of Sovereign Grace, or their churches? Perhaps going back over the past couple years of sermon audio from Covenant Life and if it a full gospel is not heard preached in depth, that would be convincing evidence of what you say. I think I remember one message where CJ preached in depth on election and man’s inability to save himself, but again that’s just once and that was last year I believe. What about the other Sundays? Should the gospel be presented every Sunday? Questions to consider.
just how dangerous it can be to the very gospel claimed to be so highly held, to allow any passage of Scripture to be taken as less than the literal Word of God, and interpreted in anything other than a contextual-literal approach.
Interesting point. For a place that does indeed speak so strongly of “the cross” and such, why do they not also so strongly hold to consistency in Scriptural interpretation? It begs the question - if you can claim the Bible is the inerrant word of God, should you not also be able to take it all consistently, and - in context - literally?
Bobby, thanks for asking some of the hard questions that this whole situation demands.
Bobby,
OK, the burden of proof is on you: what evidence can you provide that CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris, or Bob Kauflin preach a “watered down gospel that talks little if at all about a holy God’s righteous wrath and man’s sin - the very first and key part of understanding one’s need for a Savior.”? On the contrary, I’ve heard these men preach it straight. Their music reflects their theology:
“Your blood has washed away my sinJesus, thank YouThe Father’s wrath completely satisfiedJesus, thank YouOnce Your enemy, now seated at Your table,Jesus, thank You.”
“Wrath unspared for countless sins,the Guiltless crucified”
“Jesus, friend of sinnersA crown of thorns You wore for meBruised for my transgressionsPierced for my iniquitiesThe wrath of God that I deservedWas poured out on the innocentHe took my place, my soul to saveNow I am his forever”
Also, read “The Cross-Centered Life” and you will find a the gospel presented clearly, fully, and unashamedly. This is why MacArthur aligns himself with Mahaney, though making no apologies for his own cessationist views. I, too, am a cessationist, but have come to appreciate the gospel-centered focus of the SG folks. It is something they do very well, in an exemplary manner.
With regard to eschatology, there are many great preachers who do not hold to a pre-trib, pre-milennnial view of eschatology. In fact, the system itself is relatively new. Therefore, if those with whom you don’t agree preach a “watered-down” gospel because of their non-literal view of eschatology, then many of our heroes from church history did so.
We all have holes in our theology. I do, you do, and so do CJ Mahaney and John MacArthur. We just aren’t able to see where those holes are. We do well to learn from those with whom we disagree, and, unless they are guilty of heresy, be patient with them, correct with gentleness, and determine to know only Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Christians should not be lumped into “good” and “bad” categories, but we should understand that we are all wrong at points—some moreso than others— and long for that Day when our understanding will be made perfect, our errors will be dispelled, and we finally know as we are known. Until then, let’s extend a little more grace to brothers who are preaching the true gospel.
Bobby,While I would echo and agree with many of your comments regarding the charismatic issue (although I’m not sure I would call them liberal-that term gets unfairly tossed around a lot), I hardly see how someone not espousing a dispensational, pre-millenial view of eschatology means they don’t take scripture seriously.
“not sure how that’s possible if you’re an educated American Christian who has the freedom and time to read and study the Word and access to every commentary and preacher out there”
Right. So if you have read and studied you must know that A-millenialism has been a valid view of Revelation through the ages? I think it’s important that we don’t lump together concerns about possible extra-biblical Charismatic issues with differing views of eschatology.
“… and the watered down gospel that talks little if at all about a holy God’s righteous wrath and man’s sin”
This is just plain not true of Mahaney and the SG folk. THey are CONSTANTLY talking about God’s righteous wrath and how men and women deserve it. While I do have some (minor) theological differences with them, I have never see a more gospel centered group of brothers and sisters.
I have been a member of a Sovereign Grace church for the past 4 years, and deeply thankful to God.
Tim,
Thank you for this post. I?m encouraged by how, in the context of this discussion on spiritual gifts, and particularly the miraculous gifts, you are putting the first 3 verses of 1 Corinthians 13 into practice. Thank you for your example here.
Julie,
You wrote ?I’ve been a part of Sovereign Grace for the last 7 years until very recently and I would agree with your assessment. They contribute some great teachings, but I’m not sure the charismatic (miraculous) gifts are their strong suit right now. I’ll be surprised if they are still claiming to be charismatic in 10-20 years, but I hope they are?
I agree this is not a very strong suit, at lest in the Sovereign Grace church I belong to, but I?m curious why you would be surprised if we ?are still claiming to be charismatic in 10-20 years?? For whatever reason, our church is not the strongest here, but we definitely desire to grow and I trust we?re obeying Paul?s exhortation in 1 Cor 12:29-31 ?Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.?
Bobby,
A couple suggestions and questions
1. You wrote ?Yet at a sermon given by Kauflin not two weeks ago at their church, he gives the impression (no pun intended) that they put prophetic word more “on par with” than “superceded by” Scripture?
I don?t know that this is a fair assessment. In listening to this podcast from Covenant Life Church, I did not get this impression. In fact, I?m pretty confident Bob Kauflin was stressing how Scripture trumps and guides any prophetic word (prophecy as understood by Sovereign Grace?. Even to his own church he seemed to be stressing this and putting in all the safety clauses.
2. You wrote? Yeah that’s garbage. First of all, who is he to place limits on what can be said if it is of the Lord as they claim. Second, speaking from emotion and feeling hardly makes it prophecy. If anything it is most likely to be personal commentary that is then elevated in status by claiming it is “prophetic”. Just because it involves a verse or passage of Scripture doesn’t make it “prophetic”. If that’s the case then every Bible commentary ever written is “prophetic”. Talk about mis-using that term…?
I guess so much of this comes down to how we define NT prophecy?I believe the Soverign Grace position would go something like this, piggy-backing off of your words: not personal commentary, but commentary through a personality, brought to mind/impressed by the Spirit of God for specific time and place for the building up of the church. They?re always stressing keeping in mind the infallible nature of our ability to communicate effectively what the Spirit is impressing. But I think my main point here is to accent the nature of NT prophecy as understood in this respect, is a means God uses to build up a body of believers in a temporal locale primarily (thus different than your analogy of Bible commentaries and such I would think).
3. You brought up the verse 1 Timothy 5:22Appropriate to bring this up. I haven?t actually studied this at all, but I?m curious how it might fit w/ 2 Timothy 1:6?I.E. was there something specifically intended here related to the passing on/appointed of an elder/pastor that wouldn?t necessarily carry over to discussion of laying hands on a person when praying? I can see the modesty question, but also Paul does not seem to speak of purity here related to the laying on of hands, but ?nor take part in the sins of others?keep yourself pure?. I?d be interested in others? thoughts in my speculation here?
One other thought on the modesty question. You wrote? Yeah well for a church that supposedly stresses modesty, they certainly allow immodestly dressed folks to attend their services.?I?m curious if ou would suggest keeping someone out of a church building if they are dressed immodestly? Can this be policed in this way? Should it be? I?m speculating, but I think Sovereign Grace would take the strategy of addressing this through preaching/teaching at appropriate times, and in tandem, strive for challenging each other and accountability within the context of their small groups? A more loving tact then ?You can?t come in here?.
4. One last thought related to MacArthurs relationship with CJ. I say praise the Lord. I?m so glad these men are coming together for the gospel. We are not bound together by eschatology or the gifts or how we dress (and these are not unimportant?just not core). Rather, we are knitted together thorough the true gospel of Jesus Christ (and all the sin, wrath, mercy, cross, obedience, joy related).
Interesting perspective to say the least. I appreciate your candor. I do wonder about the comments made pertaining to prophecy … “this prophecy bore little resemblance to the prophecies of Scripture” … “prophecies were not allowed to include words about dates, mates, correction or direction.” I can understand SG not wanting to get into embarassing situations … and not wanting to jump on the date band wagon when in Scripture it is clear no dates on the second coming have been made available and not interested in someone suggesting God gave them the “inquiring” exclusive. Interesting again to say the least.
You also stated … “the gift of healing, as exercised in these circles, is dramatically different than it was in the times of Scripture.”
The book of James speaks of the person in need of healing calling the elders [spiritual leaders] to pray over and anoint them with oil. Seems like a good practice to me.
All this makes me ask if SG use of spiritual gifts is biblical? Are we free to make up our own use of spritual giftedness in that it resembles nothing of biblical proportions? I appreciate the aspects of humility that it is not an in your face approach to demanding such spiritual gifts as prophey, healing and tongues … but what is the purposeful use of such gifts if they do not align themselves with Scriptural usage?
Again thanks for the blog … always enjoy reading your thoughts.
Tim,
Wow… glad you had such a great time at the conference, but this kinda felt like a “Sovereign Grace Ministries exposé!” (lol)
I’m a member of a SGM church (Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD), and I have to agree with most (if not all) of your comments re: the use of the “miraculous gifts” in SGM churches. I’m convinced Agabus was right, but there is the matter of Acts 21:4. Was Paul being disobedient? I can’t figure that one out…
In our own congregation’s services, tongues-speaking shows up — just not as often as prophetic words. Both make use of the “prophecy mic,” and both require pastoral approval before being uttered. The tongues utterances are given with the expectation that an interpretation will come soon after.
An interesting aside: I’ve observed that over the last six months or so, a disproportionate number of women have shared “words” [impressions] from our mic. I wonder if this is just among my own congregation… I’ve asked other people at Chesapeake, and they’ve made the same observation. It would be interesting to know if this is the case at other SGM churches. (How many men don’t share their “manly” impressions because of limitations such as those Bob Kauflin mentioned?)
Bobby. Do you have a personal grudge against SGC? That is how you come across. Obviously MacArthur and Mahaney, and the Together for the Gospel guys are looking at the utmost concerns, which are to proclaim the gospel and show the world the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. They are also showing the Body of Christ that they can differ in secondary issues because they believe the primary Gospel that draws man unto Himself.
you sound like a black and white kinda guy. In fact, you sound like a “Thank God I am not like hiim” kinda guy.
I have been a member of a Sov Grace Church in FL for the past 15+ years and let me first say thanks Tim for a very humble, objective, and well-thought reflection on the conference and SGM in general.
Bobby,
It may not have been your intention, but your post reads with an aire of anger and bitterness. While I respect your disagreements with SG theology, perhaps it could have been presented in a less vindictive light? Just an observation…
Let me just offer one comment. While I am Reformed to my bones specifically when it comes to the supremacy of Scripture, and the supremacy of Christ, I can’t help but challenge myself frequently not to place my theology (what I believe) above God Himself. I’ve found that I can so easily get trapped into making my theology an idol, and it can actually breed anger, hostility, and bitterness in my heart, especially towards those that disagree with me.
I think that is what I love so much about seeing guys like Mahaney, McArthur, Piper, and Dever come together for the sake of the gospel—because they don’t place their own theology above the supremacy of Christ.
My only encouragement would be let’s not idolize our theology—we should defend it, uphold it, study it…but the minute we find ourselves allowing our theology to eclipse our passionate pursuit of God Himself and the proclamation of the gospel we are idoloters.
God Bless.
Bobby, I second the comments of JVL (#25). The tone of your remarks is not God-honoring. Please re-read the first few verses of 1Cor 13and apply it in the future! Your brother in Christ. Bob
First of all, great post. I’ve really enjoyed reading your account of the conference’s sessions over the last week or so. I’m definitely envious and wish I had had the opportunity to join you. The charismatic/cessationist argument is one I’ve thought about often and still haven’t completely settled the issue in my mind yet. On one hand, the excesses and abuses of the charismatic movement often make want to be an outright cessationist. Even the way the “gifts” were described as being practiced here raises a few questions in my own mind. This coupled with the historic disappearance of these gifts for centuries seem to make a strong case for cessationism. Yet, when reading the Scriptures, I just do not get the feeling that the text supports the cessation argument. I’ve read MacArthur’s Charismatic Chaos and while he does a great job of exposing the amazing amounts of ways the Charismatic movement has completely abused the Bible I still don’t totally agree with his conclusion. I’ve also read Grudem’s take on it in his Systematic Theology and it just seems he doesn’t give the fact that the gifts disappeared for so long enough credence. I supppose we will all know the right answers soon enough…Either way though, I don’t consider this a doctrine that necessarily has to divide the church.
James,About Soveriegn Grace and the future of their charismatic doctrines:
As Tim observed, the only “miraculous’ gift even really practices is prophecy, and then it is very limited and down played most of the time. I would also agree that I’m a bit confused at how McAurthur and Mahaney have so much in common in some ways. I understand and applaud coming together for the Gospel, but it is a bit strange when you think of McAurther opinion of tongue speakers ect…well, just put two and two together. All this leads me to think that Sovereign Grace is heading more toward strong Reform doctrines ( of which I am a strong believer) but also away from strong ‘charismatic’ doctrines. If they weren’t , they would certainly not be enjoying their recent popularity with so many cessationists. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it opens the way for them to minister to a wider range of people, but it may present difficult decisions in the future for those of us who are passionately committed to seeing the gospel preached with power, as it was by the New Testament church. Does that answer your question at all? Hopefully I wasn’t coming across as critical or negative about Sovereign Grace, in fact there have been some comments on here that I would consider to border on slanderous—they are so far from the truth. If nothing else, they are people who love God, love his word, and love his church. They certainly are far from watering down the Gospel!
Travis - I appreciate your comment about more women coming forward to the mic in church. I kind of wonder sometimes if charismatic theology doesn’t appeal more to the feminine side - sort of a touchy feely theology. I’ll probably get blasted for this - but I just think men [not all] want a little more proof. Calling all the Katie’s forward. Is that the Spirit? Or is that just an emotional/ psychological crowd game we play to make us feel that the Spirit is at work. You know there’s going to be a few Katie’s present at any large gathering. Is God really doing this - or are we?
I appreciate the comments about subjectivism because I realize that many things spiritual are subjective - but for some reason these issues seem a little more serious than just saying, ‘to each his own’. That is the difficulty - what is true is true for all. What is false is false for all. I gladly count SG people as brothers in Christ - I do have questions about some practices though. Even with my skepticism - I do honestly want to be open to whatever God is genuinely behind.
BTW - I recently spoke at a missionary retreat in Nairobi - where most of the churches are of a Charismatic nature. These missionaries are Bible translators - so they attend the churches available. One woman during share time expressed that she had recently begun to question her salvation because she didn’t speak in tongues and didn’t dance like the others do, etc. She grew up in a conservative mennonite background in the U.S. and just couldn’t fit in.
These are the kinds of things that have always disturbed me about the movement
Julie,
Thanks for your follow-up thoughts.
I think I respectfully disagree on one point you made. Not sure if increased fellowship with Christians who believe differently on the miraculous gifts means moving away from distinctives? I think you’re right, though, that it could pose some difficulties in the future, but it shouldn’t be ultimately divisive if handled in a humble, Christ-exalting way.
Also, I would invite your input if you felt like I said something slanderous or borderline slanderous in my previous post.
Tim,
Thanks for great conference reporting and a humble and thoughtful reflection. I was one of the many who were unable to attend the conference but were blessed and enriched by your reporting and insights.
Julie (#28),
Having not actually attended a Sovereign Grace event or church (I was introduced to their ministries at Together for the Gospel), I cannot say one way or the other what I think about the future of SG’s charismatic element. But you suggest that their minimal emphasis on these issues is what makes their ministry so popular among cessationists. As a reformed cessationist, let me simply give testimony that the reason I am so appreciative of the ministries of Sovereign Grace (particularly their music, as a Worship Pastor) is that they unashamedly proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ (wrath and all, Bobby), and they demonstrate true humility and service. The leaders of the movement (Mahaney, Kauflin, Harris, etc.) are simply Christ-like brothers, and that is what has drawn me to their teachings and songs. Charismatic elements aside, SGM is a wonderful organization with a strong commitment to the beauty and supremacy of Jesus Christ, our Savior.
Bobby (#16),
Let me simply echo the loving correction of several other brothers and sisters since your comment. Disagree with theology all you like (I have my own differences as well, of course), but hold your disagreements with love and humility, not with anger and resentment toward these brothers and sisters.
Kyle
“Well, that and a vast difference in what exactly “tongues” is, as well as what exactly “prophecy” is and how it and its speaker can be verified (oh gee, they can’t).”
Bobby,
The sarcasm reflected in the above quote, as well as the overall lack of charity in your response made it difficult for me to appreciate whatever valid points you may have made. To accuse those who served in their membership classes of “faux sweetness” was particularly unnecessary and unhelpful.
You said:
“As if the Charismatic issue wasn’t big enough, there is the watered down gospel that talks little if at all about a holy God’s righteous wrath and man’s sin…”
This is simply not true. Based on all that I’ve heard from SGM, there is nothing at all watered down about the gospel they preach. One of the things I have appreciated the most about what I’ve heard from CJ and Josh Harris is that they boldly-yet humbly- proclaim both the kindness and severity of God. And God has given them the grace to do it in a way that models broken-heartedness, compassion and love- Christian virtues that were conspicuously absent from your post.
grace and peace,shai
Tim,
I wanted to join the chorus of those offering thanks for your coverage of WorshipGod ‘06. My husband served at the conference, providing oversight for the sound, lighting and video. It was great to be able to keep up with what was going on—and pray in a more informed way—through your blog. Thanks for the sacrifices you made to be there, and for the humble tone in your articles, which has set the tone for the discussion here.
I did want to offer one comment re: the laying on of hands and modesty. My suggestion is that what you noticed at the conference is not necessarily typical of Covenant Life Church. In my eight years at CLC, what I have usually observed looks something like this: during a Sunday service, when a woman requesting prayer (could be prayer for healing, for repentance, for help in time of need, etc.) raises her hand, it is usually her husband and children or her father and mother who are first to lay hands on her. Sometimes other women who are nearby will join their circle. If the woman is single without family members nearby, other women near her are quick to come and pray for her. I have seldom, if ever, observed a man laying hands on a woman who was not his wife, daughter, or perhaps his fiance, though he might respectfully extend his hand in her direction.
This is also true of ministry times after our services, when people come forward to request prayer from our pastors and small group leaders. If a woman comes forward by herself, the pastors typically direct her to a small group leader’s wife, or perhaps a leader and his wife who are ministering together. Or the pastor may pray for her himself, perhaps extending his hand toward her without actually touching her.
Also, when we pray for each other in a care group meeting, the women are directed to lay hands on women, and men on men. I’ve been a part of numerous small groups, both singles’ and marrieds’ groups, and I can’t remember ever seeing an exception to this.
I’m sure that there are times when our practice looks different than what I’ve described here, but I don’t think that what you saw at the conference is typical, at least at Covenant Life. The woman-to-woman/man-to-man prayer thing isn’t upheld in a legalistic way, nor is it something that’s publicly taught. Rather, I think it’s a practice we’ve learned from the example of our pastors that helps us to guard our eyes, hearts and minds, and to keep our thoughts focused on the One to whom we pray.
I hope this helps to clarify, and not to confuse!
Let’s dispense with the charges of a “watered down gospel” at Covenant Life. There is no evidence that that is true, and the burden of proof does indeed rest on the one making the charge.
Furthermore, contentious posts made by anyone whose email is “no@no.no” are not welcome and will be deleted. Leave a real email if you wish to comment here.
Bobby,
I spent my teen and young adult years in CLC; my parents and siblings are still members there. There is much that CLC teaches that I no longer agree with, but I think you are being rather unfair in your characterization of their ministry.
Modesty is not the “policy” of CLC. It is a teaching upheld by the church, not a policy. People can choose to live out that teaching or not - just like with any other teaching. It is not the responsibility of the pastors to “enforce” standards of modesty, any more than it is their responsibility to force members or attendees to accept their teaching on the charismatic gifts or on Calvinism. It is their job to confront sin and discipline members where appropriate. Clothing is not one of those topics, in my opinion.
You’re barking up the wrong tree.
For the record here are some quotes from a sermon given by CJ Mahaney, on the gospel (the outline can be found at: http://sovgracemin.org/pdf/teaching/therapeutic.pdf):
“A clear view of sin is necessary and critical for understanding and appreciating justification.”
“Because of our sin and the holiness of God, we are all objects of the justified wrath of God.”
“It is only when we are aware of wrath that we appreciate grace.”
“To appreciate grace one must understand the seriousness of sin and be convinced he is worthy of wrath and incapable of altering this condition apart form faith in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ.”
Though I disagree in some secondary issues, I’m thankful for men like CJ who are proclaiming the gospel boldy and without watering it down. God give us all that same boldness!
Tim, thanks again for your balanced, gracious, and reliable liveblogging and reflections of the WorshipGod 06 conference. I’ve been blessed by the messages I read, and appreciate your maturity in dealing with very delicate issues such as cessationism and continuationism.
Yes, concerns that the gospel is watered down at Covenant Life and at Sovereign Grace Ministries are far wide of the mark! It simply is not true. I say that as a non-SGer, so I’m not trying to defend something I have a vested interest in. The Cross absolutely permeates everything they do. In fact, I told my wife upon my return (I’ve actually mentioned this in a comment at the WorshipGod06 blog) that more than any other church I’ve ever been a part of or visited, these guys value the substitutionary atonement of Christ. It’s almost tangible. And the fact that basis is absent from other churches grieves me.
It is extremely difficult to capture the spirit of what took place last week during the times of worship in finite words. Tim did an excellent job. But words are finite indeed. As a default-cessationist, nothing that happened last week, particularly on Friday night, gave me any cause for concern that their theology is awry.
Keep focusing on Christ, CLC and SG! It is refreshing to see and be a part of that, if only for a brief time.
Okay guys, someone deleted bobby’s lengthy reply that it looked like was intended to be an answer to a lot of the questions raised in regard to his first post. I did not see anything in his reply that was unChristian, let alone worthy of deletion.
If you’re going to use his ‘not using a real email address’ as your motive for deleting a post that probably took him some time to write, that’s rather silly: I (and probably others) use “no@no.no” as well - it’s a common way to avoid getting spam mail.
If you’re going to delete his answer to questions asked, perhaps you should also delete the other responses to his initial post, otherwise that’s being rather unfair to him in that he explained himself and you deleted his explanation. No matter who he is, Christian or otherwise, or how he is acting (within reason), we should be treating him with Christian love in response. I don’t see how deleting his post does that, especially when there was no good reason to do so (no foul language, no flaming, etc).
Just a thought.
Umm, sorry to chime in here, especially since this is a blog and not a discussion forum per se, but no one has the ability to delete anyone’s comments except for Tim, who is on vacation right now so I’m not even sure he’s moderating comments.
But even if he is moderating comments, it’s his blog and he can do so as he wishes for no reason at all.
I apologize to Wake because the tone of my last comment came across more harsh than I intended it to be. I was simply trying to communicate that no one deleted Bobby’s post (unless it was Tim).
Tim is moderating these comments. He has already deleted others in this thread. I am also a moderator here, and I deleted Bobby’s post, and it was not only for using a fake email, although that is reason enough. I have nothing more to say about that, so let it go.
Sounds like you were built up in the faith, and helped others to be built up as well. We need all the encouragement we can get now days.
It’s a callous and strong current flowing against us in the world we live in. It’s going to take a Church that encourages one another to stand against such a torrent of false religions, and total disregard for the truth. (Hebrews 10:19-25)They truly preach the truth in love at CLC. And that IS what it’s all about.
Thanks for going, and for the posts.
Tim—
Great to read your thoughts and your fairness.
With all the guests that attended this conference I was overjoyed to see the leaders pursue the presence of God and encourage the exercise of spiritual gifts without fear of man.
Sovereign Grace Ministries has only recently enjoyed this measure of fellowship with reformed brothers and sisters. For years they have been viewed too “operationalist” (too use Challies term) for the reformed camp, and too reformed for the charismatic camp.
James,Sorry if I made it sound like I was referring to you! None of your comments were offensive at all, I was referring to other comments I saw. I totally agree that we should have unity, just that we should also deal honestly and humbly with our differences. We are all wrong about something and we’ll find out what it is eventually. We can only honestly seek the face of God in his Word and live by our convictions. I gladly respect anyone who does that, assuming they get the most important and blatantly obvious truths of Scripture right.
I hope Bobby will post his response again in a way that the moderator will find unobjectionable.
Tim,
Thanks for your service to us all by live blogging at the Worship God 06 Conference. Thanks also for your humility and charity you have shown in your reflections about certain theological aspects of the conference. Your humility and charity are more than just refreshing they are a great example of how we ought to conduct ourselves in regards to differences we have with other believers in Christ.
To all who have posted comments about questioning some of the charismatic elements of the conferences, thanks for being thoughtful and desiring to honor God and hold fast to the Word. We need more dialogue and less debate about this subject.
I attend and more importantly am actively involved in a Sovereign Grace Church. I spent many college days studying the Scripture about the continuation of the gifts and their function in the local church. I thought I would post a few recommended resources that were helpful to me and to be a reminder that those who hold to a charismatic position may not simply because of subjective experiences but due to diligent study.
Are Miraculous Gifts For Today? (A Four Views Book) Edited by Wayne Grudem.
Showing The Spirit: A Exegetical Study of 1 Corinthians 12-14 by D.A. Carson ( This is a very scholarly work that I would highly recommend)
The manuscripts of sermons preached by Dr. John Piper from Jan. 7, 1990 through April 8, 1990 (Which can be found on DesiringGod.org) The series is entitled Compassion, Power and The Kingdom of God.
Convergence by Sam Storms
The Convergence Seminar by Dr. Storms given at Bethlehem Baptist Church on 04/8-9/06 can be downloaded on Bethlehem’s home page.
The Gift of Prophecy by Dr. Wayne Grudem
I would also recommend that anyone interested in the views held by Sovereign Grace about the Spiritual Gifts visit the Sovereign Grace Store on-line.
And for those interested or concerned about the lack of a eschatological perspective within Sovereign Grace Churches. A very helpful resources is available at there on-line store entitled Last But Not Least: The Importance of Eschatology a seminar by Jeff Purswell.
I hope these recommendations are helpful.
I’ve been a part of CLC for a little bit over a year now and came because of the reformed theology. At first I was very hesitant about the whole charismatic thing and thought they could have it if they wanted, but I didn’t want any part of it.
Over the course of time my view has radically changed. As I’ve gotten more involved in the church and from my experience with other charismatic churches I can say that the miraculous gifts of the spirit are not abused here. Because of the moderation used in the miraculous gifts, I’ve definitely seen charismatics turn away from CLC because of the emphasis on reformed doctrine.
It’s interesting, because I’ve seen and heard it all here from healing, tounges, prophecy about unborn children and the whole nine yards. Something insightful a friend who has been in the church longer then I said to me recently is that you usually can’t tell about the people who use the “miraculous gifts” the most. The charismatic element of CLC is not something proclaimed or exalted. Our gaze and praise is always directed to Scripture and the atoning work of the Christ on the cross.
In response to the comment that SG will no longer be charismatic in 10-20 years, I probably initially would have thought that as well, but after getting an up close look at the leadership and how they passionately pursue the Spirit it is apparent that the charismatic element will not leave. One thing that I am grateful for and that I’ve learned is that everyday I am desperately dependent for more of God’s Spirit in my life because apart from His work, I can do no good thing.
I initially responded to this subject with very critical remarks (see my comments - #1 - on Tim’s post ‘WorshipGod06-Fifth Session).
After more thought and further reflection on this, I have to say that my impression of what took place at the conference with respect to the continuing spiritual gifts, as well as what apparently takes place in Sovereign Grace churches, does NOT seem to be something that is detrimental to the body of Christ.
I am coming at all of this from the perspective of a cessationist, and after pondering all this more I am compelled to admit that, while I still may be uncomfortable with these things being practiced, I just don’t see them being harmful…especially from the oversight and care I perceive being used in the use of these gifts.
I know this may shock some who read my initial comments along with the ones that were removed (apologies to Tim and especially to Bob Kauflin), but when I weigh this stuff over and against how SG churches proclaim the truth of the gospel, I must be honest with myself and conclude the following:
if there were only two churches that I could go to, and one was a conservative Southern Baptist church (I was born and raised in the SBC) that was Arminian in its theology and the other was a Sovereign Grace church…that I would pick the SG church any day, even though I might be a little uncomfortable with some of the spiritual gifts practices there.
Praise God for the likes of Bob Kauflin, C.J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris! May our Mighty Savior continue to use you in the growth and glory of His kingdom. Keep up the God-honoring work you are doing, and keep fighting the good fight! And please forgive this over-zealous brother who spoke too soon, and without thinking through all of this first.
Brian, thanks for what you wrote in #48. It is really rare in the blogsphere to see somebody respond in that fashion. In all, Soli Deo Gloria!
Brian (#48),
I was moved to tears by the humility you displayed in your comments. I’ve shared some of my thoughts on this topic, and tried to address some of the concerns people have voiced over on my blog at http://www.worshipmatters.com/bobkauflin/2006/08/worshipgod06_co_1.html.